Jesse Michels
Appearances
American Alchemy
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He kind of is, right? It was all like, what was it like temperature inversion? He was a Harvard astronomer. And I think he was also a cryptographer and kind of deep in the national security state. And he would just write these kind of naysayer debunking books in the 50s. And he would describe all this stuff, you know, light reflections or, you know, temperature inversions and that sort of thing.
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But yeah, what are your thoughts on him? Why is he your favorite villain?
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Well, the other fascinating thing about Don Menzel is he went on to run the Bureau of Public Standards, which, you know, they're sort of codifying time zones, but also a lot of astronomical data as well. And so if anybody were to like manage our reality, it would be somebody in that position.
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And then I don't know if you know this fact, this is kind of trippy, but he had an understudy, a PhD at Harvard who studied right under him named Lou Branscombe. Lou Branscombe gave Edward Condon his clearance back, and Edward Condon went on to do a hit job on UFOs with the Condon Committee, which killed Blue Book.
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And so thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.
American Alchemy
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So it was literally Menzel's, like, protege giving Condon his clearance so that he could completely kind of put the kibosh once and for all on UFOs and kind of kill the field. So...
American Alchemy
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I think he should. Yeah, I think he's an arch-villain. I think there's something going on there. And we were talking in the car earlier about Carl Sagan, who I think is such a fascinating figure because, you know, we were saying he, in his early diaries, he would write all about UFOs. He was clearly sort of fascinated by them. It feels like if you read, you know, Pale Blue Dot or Watch Contact.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. He's sort of, it seems like this tongue-in-cheek reference to actual non-human intelligence or extraterrestrial visitation. But then publicly, he just seems to dogmatically flip on the topic and just become this kind of debunker.
American Alchemy
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Actually, right around the time when J. Allen Hynek kind of goes in the opposite direction, he was running Blue Book and Astronomer, and he says, you know, actually, I played a part in the cover-up, and So it's interesting that, yeah, Carl Sagan, there seems to be this kind of split between his private life and beliefs and public life on UFOs.
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Oh, well, thank you. How did you get in this space to begin with? Were you always in the space as a kid?
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Do you know who was running the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time?
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Currently, maybe. The guy at the time was Robert Sarbacher. You know those moments in the middle of the day when you feel your energy dipping and you just need something to help you reset. That's when I grabbed my greens and it's become my favorite way to recharge. Greens is a refreshingly delicious blend of 14 essential greens, adaptogens, antioxidants, and even mushrooms.
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who David Grush says went on to basically create UFO secrecy through the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, and was very close confidant with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's working on anomalous gravity research. And so it seems like Harvard was the epicenter of a lot of this interesting work.
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That's amazing. Yeah, I've always wondered how much. Do you think JFK was maybe privy to the UFO? Because there's this letter.
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That's what we do on my show. Yeah. But there's a letter that was FOIA'd. You know, the Freedom of Information Act was used to request it out of the government in 2005. And it was from JFK to acting director of the CIA, John McCone. It was after JFK had fired Alan Dulles.
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And he's asking for data on unknowns because he's worried that the Russians, the Soviets, might view it as a threat if they see the unknowns in their airspace. And Yeah. And if you're thinking about detente, that's obviously a really important vector to kind of think about. And so I always ask myself, you know, this guy, John Greenwald, Black Vault dot com, has done a lot of work on this.
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And he's looked into the veracity of this document and the verdict's still out. It's unclear. And I think there are a lot of reasons to think it might not be real. But. It's interesting because there were some people in and around the JFK assassination that think that maybe it had something to do with his inquiries into UFOs. I don't know.
American Alchemy
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There's a lot of fascinating questions to explore for sure. But that's really interesting. I didn't know he was, I mean, I know he was Harvard affiliated. I had no idea he was at all involved in anything they were doing in the world of astronomy. That's really fascinating and cool. Yeah.
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So you did Project Vasco, and now you're on to a new project to get more of a smoking gun, possibly, around these anomalous objects. Can you describe what that project is?
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Was that the extent of the vanishing stars just the 1952 or you found a lot of vanishing?
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Okay. Okay. So what exactly do you hope to do with Exoprobe?
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That makes so much sense. We were talking earlier and there are certain projects out there that kind of just use generic, you know, a lot of sensor modality, kind of constant observation, and then just the exclusion principle. And it's like, okay, there are all these objects we do recognize what lies outside of the scope of what we recognize. And you presented this really interesting example.
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kind of model, which updated me where it was like, no, you actually need a hypothesis going in. That's actually really good. That's good science. Having an idea of what you're looking for and then whatever signatures you'd expect to see from that thing and actually looking for that precisely.
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And so I guess the question for you would be in the case of UAP or UFO, do you have specific signatures you might be looking for?
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You just prove that there's a bunch of stuff outside of what you'd expect, but you're sort of using process of elimination forever.
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So when you say you're looking for light reflections and light emissions, is that specifically in a specific light wavelength, or is it other possible signatures, or it's just light?
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So you think, like, because one example would be, you're familiar with the Nimitz case in 2004, the Tic Tac. Yes. So that was detected right when a forward-looking infrared new system from Raytheon was installed on the Nimitz Carrier Strike Group system or whatever. And so people hypothesized that that aperture allowed them to see the UFO. Yeah.
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If UFOs are moving like we think they might move, you'd expect light stretching or light crunching. And so in the light stretching case, you'd get, you know, red shifts and you'd get, you know, infrared would be probably better. And then in the light crunching case, if it was moving towards you, you'd see UV. And so, you know, maybe these are good detection methods.
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Have you ever experienced, because you are going out on a limb and even looking into this stuff, you, Avi Loeb, a few other astronomers of serious pedigree are even entertaining this. Do you have you experienced any blowback for what you're doing?
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So not even commenting on whatever happened then. For me, I care about the truth as far as people's incentives around attacking the person. It's like, okay, go after the person when they did it, if you really care about the thing they did.
American Alchemy
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But to go after it right when you publish your paper about these anomalous objects, that seems to be at least motivated by the anomalous objects and trying to cover that up and not like the initial grievance.
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Good for you. Do you think we are close to finding anything? I mean, do you have like an intuitive sense for just the overall dynamic of, you know, finding kind of more of a smoking gun, more evidence?
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Some of my favorite people have been like unreasonably canceled and it's weirdly freeing because they're just like, when you get crucified like that, you're just like, whatever. Especially when it's like completely unwarranted and unreasonable, you kind of like let go and just, you know, and then you're really, you're kind of free.
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You're not bounded by like needing to be liked or validated, which most people are.
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What is that? The European Crash Retrieval Initiative?
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How do you go looking for crash retrieval? How can I get involved?
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And are the databases just like collect crowdsourced from people saying like online, I saw a thing crash and that sort of thing?
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Is there a correlation with where the crashes occur? Are they around specific sites or...
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Is the methodology like scraping the internet for like people writing about this stuff?
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Fascinating. Do you have a hypothesis as to, you know, per our conversation earlier, do you have a hypothesis as to what you'll find in the form of a crashed UFO?
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Do you believe most of them are flying saucers or do you think they're, you know, this Michael Schallenberger, this journalist just testified in front of Congress, put out this 12-page report, Immaculate Constellation, this program that seemed to be some unacknowledged special access program in the U.S., And in it, there are like, there's a taxonomy.
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There are like different descriptions of crafts. You have flying saucers, you have orbs, you have jellyfish is actually mentioned in this document. Do you believe in kind of a variety of things or do you think the flying saucer is the main thing or what do you think?
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Why do you think, you know, like, one, if I were playing devil's advocate and acting skeptical, I would say, if you really have crashes going on everywhere, and they're not just around military installations, then, like, why don't we have a smoking gun yet?
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Like, if you have plenty of UFO crashes in Europe and other places and remote areas, why don't you have some, like, Inuit tribe or something just come upon a crashed UFO and then, like...
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you know, some anthropologist is visiting and then they see the crash UFO or like, I don't know, random explorers or travelers or whatever, like not, we don't have one case of like somebody, you know, having like at least a larger craft. Gary Nolan has in his possession because they were mailed to Jacques Vallée and he did mass spectrometry on them.
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These objects from an Ubatuba crash in Brazil and, you know, from Roswell, you have bits and pieces of, you know, possible stuff, but you don't have like the larger objects that you might expect.
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What drives you on a deeper level? Do you hope we do make contact? And if so, how would the best form of that contact look like?
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Amen. Is there anything on molecular biology which you studied before or just life in general or religion or anything that you've rethought because of your current contemporary interest from an astronomical perspective in UAP?
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I have a weird feeling it will in our lifetime, which is like wild. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, right? Like Sam Friedman, unfortunately would have been wrong. Like, I don't think things shifted that much in the last 50 to 70 years, but maybe, maybe now things are speeding up. It kind of feels like they are.
American Alchemy
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We'll find out. Well, Dr. Villarreal, I appreciate you spending time with me. This was really remarkable to just learn about all the stuff you're doing. How can you know, is there are you looking for more funding? Is that like something that you're always sort of open to or like what? How can people help you, you know, in your in your efforts?
American Alchemy
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Awesome. Well, audience, help Dr. Virial if you can, if any of that applies to you. I really appreciate it. It was awesome. It was fantastic.
American Alchemy
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Interesting. And so can you explain what a non-cosmological redshift is?
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So it's stretching light. And you're moving lower down on the electromagnetic wave spectrum towards the lower nanometer range.
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So the verdict on redshifts is still out, but you've moved on. I've moved on. And you might come back at some point.
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So how did you get into, because I know you through my own interest in UAP, Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena. How did you get into even believing that that was possible?
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And is there any government interest when it comes to this? Well...
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Yeah, absolutely. We should go down there and try to gather resources.
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So how does looking at vanishing stars then lead you to an interest in UAP or UFOs?
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Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you want to give it up.
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And this is not a supernova or like, you know, the heat death of the sun type thing turns into a black hole or dwarf or something.
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We didn't have any of that technology back then.
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That's absolutely amazing. I mean, because... In UFO lore, not even lore, this was a national event. It was all over the press. It was in newspapers saying saucers on the White House lawn. It prompted a call between Truman and Edward J. Ruppelt, who was the head of Blue Book at the time. And you had this Washington invasion or DC flyover where there were saucers all over DC at the time.
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And it was July of 1952, but it was specifically two weekends. It was the 19th and 20th, and it was the 26th and 27th. So I find that absolutely remarkable. So these are naval records that you're looking at to see the stars.
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Got it. And so you're seeing images, you're seeing this three in a row and then five in a row in your case.
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Okay, got it. And then they just seem to vanish. They weren't in the public observable data like a year later or even a week later.
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That's wild. I mean, that's really fascinating. Is there anything that is distinct about them when comparing them to other stars in the images, or do they look like garden variety stars?
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I'm here with Dr. Beatriz Villareal, who is a phenomenal astronomer, both in a conventional sense, she's conventionally trained, but also I think you are a rare, kind of very open mind in your field, and you've found some very interesting things, and so I'm really excited to speak with you because you're kind of on the frontier, you're the intersection, I think, between scientific rigor and this burgeoning field of studying kind of anomalous phenomena in the air and in space.
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Can you describe the methodology of Project Vasco? What exactly are you doing?
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And Mount Palomar is an observatory and a telescope in California.
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Yeah, I think that's kind of hard to argue with.
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Do you remember Don Menzel? Do you know that name by any chance? Yeah. Famous astronomer.
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But it existed. And so that is that's just so fascinating.
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I'm just so impressed by you, and I'm grateful to call you a friend, and I'm really excited to have this conversation. We had another conversation, and it looks like that might go up on my WAP. this channel where we're trying to like foster really cool kind of community engagement, have conversations that kind of take it to the next level when it comes to UFOs.
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But this follow up should get crazier because UFO world has gone nuts since we last spoke. So it's an honor to have you here, man.
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But The Day After Roswell has a bunch of fluff added by its co-writer. That's interesting. And he wasn't super happy about that, right?
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That's so interesting because I was just talking to James Fox, who has an interview with Philip J. Corsico. And we need to put this out. It's not public. No, it is. It is.
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He said he's sitting on three hours. Oh, okay.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I think more can come out. And he was like... basically James Fox said, gun to my head, I get shot if I'm wrong. I think Philip J. Corso was legit. And so that's fascinating. He had a co-writer that might have kind of co-opted his process in some way because... There is stuff in that book that's, I think, clearly false.
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If you look at the tech tree around integrated circuits and semiconductors, I don't think you need alien intervention to describe. There's, I think, a Munich-like patent on a transistor that goes back to the 30s. But I do think we saw this stepwise leap in interesting technology around this time, especially in material science.
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And I do believe the basic Roswell story that like some sort of, you know, this memory metal.
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And I believe Jesse Marcel, this Air Force flight surgeon that, you know, may have handled this, this, you know, memory metal material and that it probably did make its way to Wright Airfield at the time, which Wright Airfield would have been the place you would have taken it because they were basically reverse engineering adversary tech. They had like Russian MiGs later on, but.
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Well, in 1943, they successfully reverse engineered a German pulse jet engine. So they were already successfully reverse engineering adversary retrieved technology. So it makes total sense that you'd take something there. And then basically, to complete the loop on Philip J. Corso, he says that that material is taken to Roscoe Hillencoder.
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Roscoe Hillencoder is the first director of the CIA, makes the call that Corso should be in charge of doling this out to, uh, basically civil side for civil side use cases, you know, to, to, uh, you know, for commercial purposes. So like bell labs would be like the main place.
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Oh, they just, they psyoped him, man. And he had 24 hours to edit it.
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It's been a crazy time. I don't even know where to start. Maybe we start with the Jake Barber story. So we're in unprecedented territory where we have somebody coming out, a UFO whistleblower claiming firsthand knowledge, saying that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft and then a video coming out of that may have been a little hyped up and anticlimactic. Yeah.
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Whoa! It is not only possible, it is essential.
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Well, it was almost... Not only you'd never be let in, like you can't even comprehend the reality of it. And I think it was a Don Quixote reference, right?
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Chasing after windmills, which that's always stuck with me. It's like disclosure isn't this file that you can just give to somebody. It's like I can't even tell you because you're literally unable to cognize what I might be able to share. It's just so fascinating.
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But if you listen to him, a lot of what he says is just extremely internally consistent with, you know, people like Michael Herrera, who you've done a great, great piece on and a lot of other accounts when it comes to, you know, UFOs and crash retrievals. It kind of indicates Stephen Greer as well. And so it's kind of hard to poke holes in actually just the core details of the story.
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And so and then just to add corroboration to the first thing you're mentioning with the Saarbacher Wilbur Smith connection, not only did he run, you know, research and development, you know, under under Vannevar Bush, he was head of Washington National Labs. He was just like atomic energy expert at the highest level in the US. And he was kind of scrubbed. This is Robert Saarbacher.
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He was kind of scrubbed from the Internet as well. And he was known for having an IQ of 200 plus or something. Just a brilliant guy. And so he's just this fascinating character who is also very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's this anti-gravity inventor at the time.
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Well, in 1956, when Thomas Townsend Brown does his experiment in Paris proving the Bifield-Brown effect, and that this works in a vacuum, and I think showing some sort of interesting coupling between electromagnetism and gravity, he comes back to the U.S. and he's picked up in a black Cadillac by Robert Sarbacher, who he's very, very close to. And so there's a lot of connection there.
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And so you had a third. So Eric Walker, Robert Sarbacher, both corroboration for this sort of ESP psionic thing.
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Yeah. No, I think it's the future of physics. And I think it's just... So when you have an anomaly in physics, if you can't turn it into math and... You can't instrumentalize it into technology. I think it goes into this category called an anomaly, and you just don't know what to do with it. And then the anomaly usually or often will get vindicated in a new theory.
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But until that anomaly gets vindicated in a new theory, you just have to say it's a weird anomaly, and we don't know what to do with it. And so parapsychology, I think, is... you know, parapsychology being the psionic sort of mind matter thing is proven experimentally. You can't turn it into math. We're in the Stone Age on it, and it's hard to turn into technology.
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Maybe inside, you know, government Circles, you know, have turned this into technology, but we haven't civil side. And so I think because of that, it's totally stigmatized. But if you look at other examples in the past, like blackbody radiation, you know, the 1860s or the orbit of Mercury, which was not described well in Newtonian paradigm, you needed Einstein to describe it.
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Until you get the new theory, you just don't get vindication for the anomaly. And so that's my take on it. It's not like physics outside of that branch has been productive at all in the last 70 years. It's actually been extremely unproductive.
American Alchemy
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But yeah, what's your what's your take on this whole Jake Parber phenomena?
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Yeah, after Stubblemine, Lynn Buchanan, the whole Stargate program, which ran from 1972 to 1995 and systematically kind of employed these psychic spies, which would gather intel, which was hugely consequential for the United States. figured out this, you know, novel Russian submarine, I think it's 78 or 79. And that was extremely critical for, you know, the US during the Cold War.
American Alchemy
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And he was thanked at like the highest level. I think Robert Baker actually was like, sort of very against his intel to begin with. And then he realized that it was sort of indicated after, after McMoneagle sort of figured this out and he won the Legion of Merit due to, you know, uh, the very productive activity he engaged in.
American Alchemy
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So I do think the office of Naval intelligence is the oldest, uh, uh, intelligence organization in the U S right. It goes back to the 1890s way pre pre national security act and CIA and NSA later, like pre all of that. So, I agree.
American Alchemy
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And for the audience, because they're probably drinking from a fire hose of facts right now, Randy Anderson is this amazing Green Beret who you introduced me to, who is really just, I think, a war hero. I think both you and I have heard offline of stories around his deployments to various countries that he wants to lay low on because it's not the Green Beret way.
American Alchemy
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He doesn't want to brag about anything.
American Alchemy
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But, you know, there's a number of people in his graduating class who've died. He's gone through a lot. And yeah, he was stationed at, he was an 18 Bravo weapons Sergeant, you know, an expert on all various weapons systems. And he was taken underground to this deep underground military base, which we know exists across the country.
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Well, I just want to hear you because you know, there's so, I got a lot of flack for that video and I, I've spoken to his colleagues. I've spoken to two of his Green Beret buddies now. I have their DD214s. Like, you know, I know a little bit about them and their background. And, like, I know that Randy is not lying.
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And there are people out there on the internet questioning his service, which is insane. And honestly shameful. You know, if there's anything substantive you have to say there or on the testimony, fine.
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He's a war hero. Just don't, you know... That's insane. And then, yeah, there are questions he has about his experience, you know, the off-world technologies division, like he doesn't know what that was, that human technology, was that, you know, non-human intelligence, you know, tech.
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Levitating above the podium. What makes you think that that was non-human?
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uh intelligence or military brass and suits and you know eggheads brought in a case opened it up and there was the same exact sphere that story continues to pop up it's either a sphere or a piece of metal and they want to see i just interviewed somebody yesterday and i can talk about this because it's going to come out this guy shane freaks hold that symposium on twitter and he talks about being shown a sphere
American Alchemy
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And so it's the same thing, shown a sphere and seeing how the person would react and if they have some sort of psionic connection to it. And it's kind of the same thing as the Jake Barber story where he locks on mentally to, in this case, the Akon craft. But there is a mental connection.
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And so that, that is, and then there's SAIC, I believe is on record studying quote unquote psychotronic technology.
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And they were operating Stargate, the psychic spy program in Palo Alto, like at the end of its existence. So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of history there that just corroborates where if You don't know the history. You're going to hear this Green Beret saying, I saw a sphere levitating in front of a podium and I mentally locked onto it. And you're going to be like, that's fucking crazy.
American Alchemy
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But you need to update your priors and like actually dive deep into the history of this stuff, which. I mean, you're like the tip of the spear on, but I often feel like I'm out on an island where you have very few people to talk to who don't realize that this stuff actually isn't crazy.
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If you're engaging in solid Bayesian reasoning, maybe you have to think probabilistically and it's not 100% this is definitely real or whatever, but your base case is that it actually is real because there's a lot of evidence around it.
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You hear it in pretty much every alien abduction account is this sort of mental telepathic connection. And I do find it interesting. Certain people are down for breaking physics in the form of exotic flight principles and metamaterials. But for whatever reason, that breaks our reality there. But they're not down for the mental thing. And it's like, why is that a bridge too far?
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If you've crossed this bridge, this bridge is crazy. So you have to open up all possibilities at that point. And again, think probabilistically. So maybe that second bridge is slightly lower probability than the first bridge, but I think people don't realize just how limited their thinking is around a lot of this stuff.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Yeah. There's a JSOC continues to come up, you know, as like they sort of go in, you know, and what's the connection between Delta Force and JSOC? Delta Force is a unit in JSOC.
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And my buddy Matt Pines made the connection that Lou Elizondo was actually part of this group called Gray Fox, which is, you know, deep military intelligence, but specifically it's like going into extremely sensitive sites, you know, for JSOC. Um, and so, you know, he might know a thing or two about UFOs from that, not just the OSAP, AATIP, you know, whatever that experience was around 2007, 2012.
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Oak Shannon, who is a Los Alamos project manager, very high up. Uh, you had, I believe like Ferris Williams, Kenneth shoulders, John, John B. Alexander, John B. Alexander, how put off guys like that. It was Eric Davis part of this or I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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It was clearly this sort of working group to figure out like the physics around UFOs. And I think according to Oki Shannon, there were some even spookier people who never speak and they just sit in the room and they'd sort of gather intelligence on this stuff.
American Alchemy
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And then when Greer started his kind of whistleblowing efforts, where he started to attract, this is Steven Greer, Dr. Steven Greer started to attract all these people coming out of the government and speaking to him. And he starts to promote this sort of CE5, like, you know, getting into contact with the UFOs, attracting them, whatever. Stubblebine and John Alexander show up around him.
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And I believe Stubblebine offers him a big sum of money to join legacy efforts or join the program or something. What's the story there?
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That's crazy. So what do you think was so valuable about what Stephen Greer was doing in 1992 that would, I mean, maybe that was a fake offer or like.
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He's brought a lot of exposure to the UFO world, and he should be really vindicated, and he's worked his ass off. But, yeah, it can be weird vibes, I think, at times.
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And what is he five sort of summoning? It's yeah.
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Yeah. He's it's, it's this mixed bag and it's, it's, it's somewhat unfortunate, but you, you, I mean, you have to express your sort of gratitude to him, but then it's also like sometimes you wish it came in better form.
American Alchemy
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Do you find him beyond reproach as a person?
American Alchemy
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And then he said you were not an intelligence. He cleared it up. Or he said you were an intelligence asset. No, Greer said I was an intelligence asset. Why is he basing that on?
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He's just fucking saying that you're an intelligence.
American Alchemy
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I, and, and for the record on record, you'll say you don't have a security clearance.
American Alchemy
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Do you have like a day job or is it, or is YouTube your full time?
American Alchemy
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Cause for, for, for what can you say?
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Normal dude. But that's been my way. He's going to have a massive channel and do this full time. And I hope so.
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And I'm sure like, you know, I've been guilty of it at times. Like, I don't, I don't think you can, uh, thoroughly investigate all of this stuff and get, it's, it's all so crazy and weird. You're going to get a little bit wrong along the way. And so like, it's, it's going to be this dialectical process where you have to wade through the bullshit and just have open conversations.
American Alchemy
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And I think as long as people think you're a good faith actor and you're like earnestly showing your thought process to everybody and you're like getting closer to an approximation of truth, That's all you can do. And then just admitting if you're wrong and if somebody comes at you with something substantive, just accepting that and incorporating it into your worldview.
American Alchemy
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I think the other tricky thing is people can say when you cover this topic that you are shilling a thing. Or grifting. Or grifting, which is absurd. I do have a company that encapsulates my show. I've never taken money out of the company. I've never made... I mean, money has come in through sponsors and that sort of thing because I do want this to be sustainable. I have costs.
American Alchemy
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And I'm down to make money on it long term. But what I was doing before was definitely more of a clear path to making a lot of money than this. If anything, I've lost a lot of money over the last couple of years. It's kind of funny. Yeah. But yeah, I don't think you can do anything else other than like earnestly kind of move forward and just be humble and cool and like people sense that.
American Alchemy
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Totally. Well, that's the beautiful thing about this subject is I don't. view it as zero sum at all. Like, I actually think you're like best in the world now and you will be like so much better there. Cause you're how old are you? You're like 28.
American Alchemy
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So it's like, you're like best in the world now, like tracking granular, like legacy activity stuff. I think I'm really good on the theory side, like, like, you know, like consilience interdomain consilience between like science and like theory and that sort of thing. And that's what I love. And then, you know, we have a buddy, Chris Ramsey, who has his YouTube channel, who like to me.
American Alchemy
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I think he's going to have like the biggest YouTube channel on this just because he's so – he's like the thoughtfulness that he puts into like production and storytelling is just next level and his skill set there is so good that he's going to open this topic up to like a whole new massive swath of people. And I think we're all like pretty like –
American Alchemy
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So you're saying so way against this Peru case. And then just for the audience, Michael Herrera is this case in Indonesia with this Marine unit.
American Alchemy
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I don't know, we all have egos, but we're pretty team players. And so I love that. I think that's really cool. And it's going to be a new era of this stuff where we can just work together and find the truth and compliment each other.
American Alchemy
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He spoke very highly of him and Luigi's super cool. I've talked to him. He's awesome. So this is this new documentary about Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar is obviously... If you've made it this far in the interview, you definitely know who Bob Lazar is. Absolutely, yeah. But he is famous for having claimed to have reverse-engineered UFOs at Area 51 S4.
American Alchemy
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And one of Rogan's biggest episodes, this wild controversy, some holes in his background. But spoken to Luigi and Chris, and they've actually really helped me update my take on Bob Lazar to the point where... I think he worked at Area 51 for sure. Area 51 or S4. Uh, I think he for sure worked at area 51, probably worked at S4.
American Alchemy
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And they see this sort of I guess he calls it Vanta black. Yeah. Eight gone shape that which Jake Barber describes as well. Craft hovering above the treetops. He kind of closes in on it. And then this like. really elite paramilitary unit then basically takes his whole unit into sort of custody and kind of reprimands them.
American Alchemy
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And then I'm not sure that what he was shown wasn't shown to him deliberately and he wasn't given high level frameworks as sort of passage material and recruitment for legacy, which doesn't make covering his story invalid at all. It makes it almost more interesting, but to me it has to be covered through this like meta lens. Yeah. If that makes any sense.
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Through the skepticism, but also like there's probably some real stuff.
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Yeah. I think we should all wait for Luigi's documentary project gravitar. Cause he's told me things offline that out of respect for him, I'm not going to share, but that give me conviction that he did work at us for around stuff that's gotten corrupt, but we'll get corroborated in the documentary. So it's pretty cool. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm saying Chris, Chris has as well.
American Alchemy
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And Chris is coming at this whole thing from an angle of like, he's a famous magician before this debunking other magicians. And so he comes at this whole thing through a more skeptical storytelling lens. And, um, he thinks that there's definitely something to the Lazar story and that he worked at S4.
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Why do you think there's so many things that when you talk, I'm like, we need to query this and this. Why is RAND so important?
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And then he thinks that this whole thing is part of some sort of psionic asset trafficking scheme where UFO legacy programs are actually taking people in third world countries like Indonesia back to the U.S., in order to summon Kraft. I mean, the whole thing.
American Alchemy
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technology soldier program yeah the university of southern california a creative research institute the and that's another really interesting thing where i think bob lazar might have done something in and around the mit could have well like that whenever he comes up with rogan rogan always says i'll tell you something offline where like it would make the mit records being deleted make sense yeah and then he can never say it off online could be a york
American Alchemy
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That would be my guess, that there's probably some interesting research that he was maybe involved in. Because from way back in the day at MIT, you had Carl Compton, who was president of MIT, who was rumored to be shown the craft at Wright Airfield with this sort of Anderson Trust, these CIA guys, and actually be very involved in legacy UFO efforts. And so, yeah, it's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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And now we have this super soldier program.
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Well, but with MITRE corporation and RAND, yeah, I, you would think of them as having kind of the top of the pyramid view on the technology. I believe the president of Rand Corporation for many years was a guy named Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich.
American Alchemy
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Ben Rich was the president of Skunk Works that says we have the power to travel the stars, to take ET home, and made all sorts of interesting comments at the end of his career. He also called UFOs unfunded opportunities. Yeah. Said that we have UFOs and they have UFOs, you know, so like humans do and ETs do.
American Alchemy
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Said there was an international corporate board controlling a lot of the UFOs and that maybe we needed to take it back into the hands of the US or something. Said all sorts of interesting stuff. His son was the president of RAND Corporation for decades. So I find that somewhat interesting as well. And Thomas Townsend Brown, when he's doing his anti-gravity experiments, the RAND Corporation shows up
American Alchemy
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sees the experiments, they have this meeting, something changes after the meeting. Townsend Brown, his experiments just fail. Something sort of, you know, nominally like they fail, even though clearly they hadn't failed.
American Alchemy
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And then to me, it's clear there's some covert IP transfer that occurs where his anti-gravity technology gets transferred to Northrop Grumman via his investor, who's a guy named Floyd Odlum, who has a majority stake in Northrop.
American Alchemy
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And so there's but there's something around the Rand Corporation there, too.
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Well, it's like if you were doing any secret science, if we live in the world where any science is classified, which, come on. Yeah, of course. And now, like, it's all coming out. You have people like, you know, Marc Andreessen, Ben Horowitz go to the White House. They say, well, classified math and the AI, just like we classified physics.
American Alchemy
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And like, you know, Eric Weinstein, my former colleague is. you know, constantly kind of opining on like this idea of the secret science branch. It's if you have to be stupid to not think that some science isn't classified. If we live in the world where it is classified, that stuff is going on in the places where we uphold the most secrecy, which is these DOE labs.
American Alchemy
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And so like, I don't think it's like conspiratorial. It's like, obviously if you're doing a high energy, really intense physics and, you're probably also understanding ontological truths that the rest of the public don't understand. That's often the case.
American Alchemy
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Like you start to understand things about reality due to some of these experimental effects where you're breaking the bounds of, you know, our reality in some sense, you know, through these, you know, high energy experiments. Like it makes sense that UFOs show up around nuclear weapons. It's high energy output. And if we live in any sort of like, Time bound, you know, 3d bound.
American Alchemy
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Like if there's anything outside of our, what we perceive, you would be stress testing that every time you set a nuke off, you just would. Yeah. So it's like not that crazy.
American Alchemy
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Totally. Yeah. Doing a lot of interesting material science there. It's not just a nuclear lab. Like they're doing a lot of frontier science at Oak Ridge.
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Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. And that was always, I believe it was at the HR Cross, HC Cross. You know what I'm talking about?
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Yeah. Project Stork from Battelle. Project Stork from Battelle, where it's now clear in retrospect. And I think this is a lot due to Richard Dolan's great research that like. You had this cleaving off of the vital study of UFOs. The public-facing stuff was relegated to Project Blue Book and the Air Force.
American Alchemy
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And then all the private stuff was managed by Battelle Memorial Institute, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence, and was classified under the Atomic Energy Commission, which occurred later in 54. But there was a precursor called the McMahon Secrecy Act. And so it would totally make sense that Patel would have a whole lot to do with this.
American Alchemy
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I believe Robert Sarbacher also told Whitley Strieber. So Sarbacher, I just interviewed Whitley Strieber.
American Alchemy
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He talked to Sarbacher. Sarbacher took an interest in Strieber. And when he published Communion? When he published Communion.
American Alchemy
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And so you're talking about an extremely advanced scientist taking an interest in a horror novelist's abduction account. And so Sarbacher's working at the highest levels of American military, and he takes an interest in Whitley Strieber, reaches out, wants to speak to him. And Strieber says they're about to meet up, and Sarbacher dies. Oh. Oh, yeah. And so it's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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And then again, Sarbacher's just scrubbed from the internet. Yeah. What Saarbacher, I think, told Streber on the phone is that you had all this interesting material that Battelle Memorial Institute was managing back in the day that Saarbacher was somewhat involved with. So just another piece of corroboration for this.
American Alchemy
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Is there a Mormon connection with Dugway? Because it's in Utah. And I think of like... The CIA is being fed into by just a lot of Mormons. Mormons were surrounding sort of Howard Hughes. Well, Greer likes to say so, right?
American Alchemy
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Yeah, we showed that conversation between him and Sandler.
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Sammy, are you in touch with any UFO whistleblowers, not whistleblowers yet, people on the inside who have firsthand witnessed crafts? Yeah. And anybody who has witnessed craft in a hangar, in a classified facility in the U.S., not just seeing a thing flying in the air?
American Alchemy
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No. And will they discuss the full extent? Why won't they talk publicly? Just, I do think it's important context for the audience. Like we're going to get comments, trust me, bro, or whatever.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything about the bodies and what they look like?
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How do you think this stuff gets so well hidden? Like, so, OK, I think there are some really important foundational questions that the Jake Barber story brings up, which is if you can summon these things on command, then you probably have a thousand plus. And if you have a thousand plus, then you'd expect more leakage. You'd expect more like I saw the thing in the hangar and I wasn't supposed to.
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Yeah, that's like, you know... Pretty shortly after the iPhone was released. So do you have any sense of what these elite paramilitary groups, who they're working on behalf of? Is it UFO Legacy Program? Is it the Department of Energy? I know that's been speculated at times.
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I took a photo and it's out. You hear rumors on the other side of this that we have 10 to 15 and they're like, you know, only select things and surround atomic sites or whatever. Yeah. How many do we have? 10 to 15 and a thousand plus. That's a, it's a wide range. And so clearly we can't like fully attract these things that will would be my guess. Cause I think if we had a thousand plus.
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these things would have leaked. So do you have kind of like a mental model on that?
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Yeah. So where, where are you there? Cause I think this is really important. Is like how, how much have we actually reverse engineered, made progress and made these things flyable? And you've gone really deep on this interesting story of Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen.
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But I'd love to hear... Let's go over that story, and then I also just want to kind of zoom out and get your view on, like, have we reverse-engineered UFOs effectively?
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Yeah, so McCandlish is a top aviation illustrator, working with the biggest contractors. And you hear him speak, and the guy doesn't seem like a liar to me.
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He was super smart and just almost slightly, I don't want to say autistic, but like... You just hear him speak, and he oozes authenticity.
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So this is like a back of the house, more secret version of the air show only for select people.
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And so sort of a typical saucer shape or maybe what you would see in the Kecksburg crash of 1965, like a dome on top.
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Yeah, he sent you some pretty weird shots across the bow and said something about... So Mark McCandless died a sort of strange death. Right. And he said something like, I couldn't protect him anymore or something. And then... I believe the filmmaker who made this documentary, I forget what the name of the documentary is on Mark McCandlish, which is called Zero Point, something about Zero Point.
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That's right, something like that. I think James Allen, he died in a weird way.
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Was it 1990? Yeah. So what does he say?
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So interesting. Cause yeah, that that's the rumor about Roswell. It was high powered radar that we sort of, you know, that messed with interfered with the flight patterns of these UFOs and then they come down. And we weren't meant to have this stuff.
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And then you hear rumors in and around legacy programs of whatever beings are in control of the UFOs want their stuff back and are extremely angry at the legacy UFO programs. And so that begets all sorts of weird ontological questions there. But I want to stick with the core details. So what else gives you conviction that this is true and that we do have flyable information?
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Because I just think, you know, so many people are going to sort of be skeptical.
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That's what's so interesting about this. It's as if we were given this sort of intact shell, and then we retroactively patchworked on kind of low-tech.
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The jump seats and the cameras, and then you kind of make this thing work, but it's this really low-tech combined with the really high-tech that we were given or something.
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I talked about it a little bit, but the alien scientists is this YouTuber named Jeremy Reed.
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Well, we can say this now because I said this in my piece with Randy Anderson. Randy Anderson, who you introduced me to, this Green Beret, amazing guy who claimed to be taken to this Off-World Technologies Division at Naval Surface Warfare Crane, also occasionally does contractor work at Area 51. And he's told both of us now, and I've said this publicly, that he has seen triangle craft that...
American Alchemy
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he can only presume to use his electro gravidic propulsion because it's not using, you know, normal flight principles, at least observably to him take off at area 51. Yeah.
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Okay. So then you have another guy.
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And there's so many stories about this. Even Paul Benowitz, who was totally mentally screwed up with and psyoped by Rick Doty, Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Project Beta is a great book by Greg Bishop, documents all of this.
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Um, you know, like even hit me, like the reason that he got onto the radar of all these kind of like counter Intel people was because he saw this craft, you know, vertically taking off and landing at Kirtland air force base that looked to be like, it was like, it was employing exotic flight principles. Right.
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And we know from William Steinman, this great researcher, UFO researcher that this guy, Eric Henry Wang, who ran special projects at Wright Patterson, uh, Wright Airfield at the time, was taken to Kirtland Air Force Base to work probably on some of this exotic flight stuff.
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But here's what's... I hate to say this. This all makes so much sense. But it just fits so well with all the other stuff you learned.
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So you just know about, you're not in contact.
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So many of these guys, as soon as you initiate contact, they say a little thing, and they say a thing, and they get kind of excited, and then they get spooked.
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I just don't understand why there isn't some sort of limited disclosure around these things existing, because it's like in the event in which, you know, we're at par with China and Russia. Why wouldn't you let out some like basic surface area that this stuff exists like that? That's what is it? Just this bureaucratic bullshit overhang?
American Alchemy
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Or are there real national security reasons for not letting this stuff out? And not letting it fully out, but, like, nuclear physics is not classified. Nuclear trade secrets are. Why is that not fully analogous to this?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Why? Yeah. There are all these... Well, it's like... you had under the Bush White House, Bush 43, they were going to do this sort of possible... They were thinking about disclosure and Hal Puthoff was part of this advisory group and they were talking about it.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And anyways, Bush 43... So Hal Puthoff is on record saying that Bush 43 contemplated disclosure with Stephen Hadley, National Security Advisor. And Dick Cheney, who David Grush is on record saying was one of the gatekeepers for the program. And... They decided that it was too ontologically shocking to let this out and that we couldn't publicly disclose about UFOs.
American Alchemy
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And I think that turned into a group where they were reading about – like they were reading The Three-Body Problem and other things like that. So super interesting. I mean this could also boil down to – And The Three-Body Problem, for people that don't know, is a Chinese science fiction novel. It's a great series. It's a great series and it involves –
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
basically like aliens controlling almost all frontier science. Yeah. Um, and, and sort of reality itself and being able to stagnate, but also, you know, upstart physics and, um, yeah, reality being sort of information theoretic and nature and the whole, the whole thing is so fascinating. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And so who does it roll up to? Because this is... I was trying to talk to Jake about this and it's like, there's an ongoing FBI investigation, so he can't say much. And then I did get him to say, well, you know, you could probably guess, you know, if you had two guesses on the aerospace prime contractor front, like, you know.
American Alchemy
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So we know that. He was going around to Air Force Base. That's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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So we don't know what's up there. Yeah, the Dick Cheney thing, I don't know what to think about it, but if there was a government... Behind our government Dick Cheney would be the tip of the spear of that thing if you read this Barton Gelman Biography of him his called the the angler and it's like that dude single-handedly architected the Iraq war based on like false intelligence and
American Alchemy
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He was a representative of a lot of oligarchic sort of corporate interests. And, you know, and then Halliburton gets the contract once we go kind of screw up Iraq and then he gets the contract. It's like there's something to that guy where you even read George W. Bush's book, Decision Points, and you're like.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
yeah your decisions locally are being made based on you know certain intelligence being given to you and those decisions actually don't seem extremely irrational at each moment and then it's like who's giving you the intel and it's fucking dick cheney and like there's some other guys like you know wolf wits and you know sort of cast of neocon characters but like cheney's at the heart of it yeah i mean he would make sense as a person at the top of the pyramid like like grushes
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yes. Yeah. Person at the top of the pyramid and maybe of a lineage. I'm about to do a piece on Henry Kissinger and UFOs.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. And I think there's some connections there. And it's like if you pick a modern Henry Kissinger, it would be Dick Cheney. You know, it's like this guy is the man behind the man.
American Alchemy
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Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals?
American Alchemy
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I think Hollywood has been engaging in soft UFO disclosure for 30 or 40 years through these CAA liaisons.
American Alchemy
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It's called now called disclosure. And I was talking to Chris Ramsey again, great YouTube channel, go follow it area 52. And he was like, what if a UFO is shown as part of that movie? Would that not be the best way to disclose? And like, I, I'm kind of, I'm on his side. Like maybe, maybe that happens.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Um, and then historically too, you've had, you know, uh, close encounters with the third kind, which involves Jacques Valet and Jalen Hynek. Jacques Valet is played as a character by Francois Truffaut. You see crates that say Lockheed and Northrop. Don't they say TRW? If they say that, then you're like, okay, they're talking about next level knowledge.
American Alchemy
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So I think they do say Skunk Works and because Close Encounters of the Third Kind was they do.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Well, let's look up, you know, at some point whether it's Lockheed.
American Alchemy
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OK, well, that's next level. Then, yeah, he knows a lot. And also on the Townsend Brown, who I'm sure discovered some interesting effects in the world of gravity. I'm sure of that. I feel very high conviction in that. And I just interviewed Carl Nell, who's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, where I'm saying again that this gravity technology got probably implemented in the B2 stealth bomber.
American Alchemy
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And that, so my guess is this is me talking would be like Lockheed and Northrop, but like, there's this other element of like department of energy, like who in the government does this roll up to? You hear stuff like, CIA's director of science and technology, you know, somebody like Glenn Gaffney would be involved.
American Alchemy
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And he's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. And he goes, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. When I ask him, are there, is there anything sort of useful or applicable in the UFO story?
American Alchemy
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Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, uh, like heretical technologies. So I'd invite people, uh, unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So there's more corroboration beyond that on, on the TT Brown stuff. Um, but where was I going with, what were you just saying? The, the TRW closer cutters of the third kind before that. Oh, okay. So Steven Spielberg, uh, executive produced back to the future. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And the, the, the, the subplot of the whole Thomas Townsend Brown story is that gravity affects time in general relativity, gravity and time are tightly coupled and they're related. And his, he talks about time travel constantly with his family.
American Alchemy
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Like that's something that's really, and if you think about it, if we were to ever engage in effective interstellar travel, it would involve space time metric engineering inherently. You can't get around that. Even with nuclear thermal propulsion, you get to the closest star system in 40,000 years. That's too biologically. That does not work. Right. So, He's super into time travel.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And then you have Back to the Future come out, which is a Steven Spielberg executive produced movie. The guy's name is Doc Brown, which everybody called Thomas Townsend Brown. His name is Emmett Brown, E-M-E-T-T Brown. Thomas Townsend Brown is in the name. He uses his flux capacitor. Thomas Townsend Brown's experiments are capacitor experiments.
American Alchemy
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And he goes back in time in 1985, which is the year Thomas Townsend Brown dies and To 1957, which is when I think his experiment was first experimentally proven around that time at the Bonson Labs. It's the time that physics sort of went astray in the wrong direction when I think the antigravity stuff went black.
American Alchemy
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And so it's just, I don't know, there's so much there that I think begets this like greater. And then E.T. even is extremely interesting. E.T. and the kid like lock it like. They have some sort of weird psionic connection. And you remember they're in the hospital together and ETs like heart rate is matching the kid's heart rate.
American Alchemy
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And you have all this stuff around the psionic connection that's now coming out. You also have, the consciousness connection there where the mother is walking around the kitchen and like these kids have taken, these kids see the ETs but the mother doesn't.
American Alchemy
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And like the ET is sort of like walking around the fridge and the mother doesn't see it because like her perceptive, she's closed off to these realities. So like I think Steven Spielberg definitely has been fed some really interesting UFO stuff over the years.
American Alchemy
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And back in the day, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was probably involved in this sort of stuff. But who's in charge from the government perspective now?
American Alchemy
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It's interesting to see these concepts were laid in Hollywood because— James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, and Christopher Nolan are definitely fed intense secret shit.
American Alchemy
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But even like where does the concept of Men in Black get to? Men in Black sounds quacky.
American Alchemy
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But if you talk to Richard Dolan, who's a super deep UFO researcher, men in black, they are this thing. They're in these suits, and they show up after UFO abduction experiences, UFO sightings, and they often take people's footage or swear them to secrecy. And he thinks, Dolan thinks, they're almost like the counterintel group of the aliens themselves. They erase your memory.
American Alchemy
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And so it's turned into this kind of jokey, funny movie with Will Smith. But like even that, like where is that derived to begin with?
American Alchemy
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And it's just so fascinating, you know?
American Alchemy
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So I would say the same thing. But like you meet with certain people like Whitley Strieber and other just experiencers. And like these guys seem to like have technology available to them. That's not available to the general public. And maybe that is just like, okay, so it's like Occam's razor. It's like NSA or something, but it's weird technology. It's like,
American Alchemy
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implants that involve technological mediumship as Whitley Streep. I felt his implant in his ear. Yeah, I felt it. And it's the weirdest thing. And he says it moves with his own metabolism. I haven't verified that, but like, he ever thought about getting that cut out. He wants to get it cut out, but he says it moves every time. And, I felt the thing and it's not natural.
American Alchemy
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So unless he's totally grifting and putting the thing in his ear, even though he's not really like making that much money now off of UFOs. And it happened after he wrote communion and like, it's like, I don't know, man, the whole thing's so strange.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So that's come up for me and I've never brought that up, but how, yeah. Well, how do you think that the crown prince of Lichtenstein, cause I've heard some very interesting things about him. He seems like a really cool guy, but like really interested in the spooky science stuff.
American Alchemy
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Cuz that's that's I don't I I don't You know, I I don't know I probably shouldn't say because the conversations I've had earned confidence But he seems very interesting and interested in sort of secret science one more piece of possible corroboration of you know maybe being a combo as far as the men in black is I did speak to how put off recently and
American Alchemy
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And I was trying to figure out, I was like, is it, is it their program? You know, is it the NHI program or is it our program? And he goes, what if it's a joint space program? He goes, I might believe that maybe there's something. He did. Yeah. To me. Jeez. Yeah. So in how put off is I think as deep as it gets when it comes to sort of.
American Alchemy
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Outside the Overton window science, which is now being vindicated. I mean, he was just on a podcast in December, which is co-sponsored by National Science Foundation.
American Alchemy
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And like you had like pretty high up DOE people on the podcast and all these amazing people with pretty impressive credentials. The former head of revolutionary tech at Skunk Works are on this podcast. And he's talking about extended electrodynamics and gravity manipulation.
American Alchemy
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And I think it's clearly this sort of limited hangout where it's like, let's partially expose some things so that people can, you know, learn a little bit more about some science that we've been sitting on, especially, again, if China has caught up.
American Alchemy
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you can't just you know throw people off the trail constantly you need some limited surface area around it but yeah how put off did say and you know it's always i love how but it's always this sort of like you know tongue-in-cheek like half speculating so you never quite know commits to he never commits to something he always goes the whole zoo of possibilities and i was like a b c and d and then you have to decide i i
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You did a great interview with Eric Davis.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Von Neumann. Von Neumann, Jerome Hunsaker. Who else? Denzel Ward. Vandenberg.
American Alchemy
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Hoyt Vandenberg. Nathan Twining. Yeah, a bunch of head honchos in military intelligence science.
American Alchemy
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Well, there are people who... I think are pretty credible who talk about this, like these continuity of government programs. So the 5412 committee, you know, national security, you know, committee, you know, back in the fifties and sixties that turned into the 303 committee, which turned into the committee of 40.
American Alchemy
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Do you have anything to say about that as, as far as they're kind of, you know, interesting?
American Alchemy
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And even in the Wilson memo, you know, where they said, you know, the Wilson, of course.
American Alchemy
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2002 is this meeting between Eric Davis, who's, again, this Hal Puthoff protege, propulsions expert, and exotic physics expert. It's in the parking lot of EG&G, and he's meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of Joint Chiefs J2.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So he should have all exotic tech under his purview, and he's basically expressing extreme dissatisfaction that... you had these rogue groups working on purportedly UFOs who he met with and it's out of his jurisdiction. And in that document that I believe was found in the Edgar Mitchell estate in that document, uh, it says JA is a liar. And I think JA is John Alexander. Yeah.
American Alchemy
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Well, the sort of public-facing review group, you know, the all-domain anomalies, you know, anomalous research organization or office, or I always screw it up, Arrow.
American Alchemy
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So what do you think about these documents? Cause they're, they're popular view, like with those kind of old school, like UFO researchers, like Robert Hastings, you know, who wrote UFOs and nukes. is that this was passage material. So it was like meant to detect spies. It contained all sorts of falsities.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You're giving it to this film producer who's friends with all these UFO researchers, Jamie Chandera. And then I think other versions of the Majestic 12 were then doled out in packages to other UFO researchers.
American Alchemy
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You know, the main sort of outfit studying UFOs from a public, you know, perspective. The new director was a former director of the National Security Administration, the NSA, John Kozlowski. And so it does beg this question, you know, yeah, how much of this is... You know, I often think that the overrated elements of UFOs are just, just focused on like metamaterials. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And that was like a real meeting. And his diary came out after the majestic 12 documents, obviously had come out and they corroborated the information in the majestic 12 documents. So it's, Probably similar to the Lazar stuff where it's like some of the stuff is just true. And then maybe true and under a different name.
American Alchemy
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And maybe they were looking for spies and there was some passage material involved. But yeah, it is interesting.
American Alchemy
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Just, but if you were to simulate back then, if, uh, a UFO issue were a thing and we had exotic materials and we were in contact with, you know, an extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence, you would need our best and brightest on it. And if you look at that list of people, those would be the, those would be the people on it. Yeah. Vannevar Bush would be heading it up.
American Alchemy
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That's right. And then you have Gordon Gray, who was also on the Majestic. Don Menzel, who admitted, you know, he was super read in on Navy, CIA, a bunch of, you know, pretty classified info. and admitted as much, actually, to Kennedy, and Stanton Friedman actually writes about this, was sort of in charge of disinfo and debunking, which he was debunking a lot.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And there's this amazing Swedish astronomer, Beatrice Villareal, and she talks about Menzel having, like, deleted, like, all this astronomical information from, like, 1953 and onwards in... from the Harvard Observatory. And at the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time, you had Robert Sarbacher. He was working there.
American Alchemy
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And then the number, I think James Conant was the president of Harvard and he was like the number two guy, you know, the Manhattan Project at the time. So, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say, but it sort of makes sense. It's directionally correct.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb, who runs, I think, my favorite channel on YouTube that covers UFOs. Literally, the information density of your channel is second to none. It's drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts. I think any 15-second clip from any one of your videos could beget its own entire video. on various other channels that are kind of slower and less fast-paced.
American Alchemy
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The whole history is fascinating. I think maybe, you know, one of the tip of the spear frontier groups longitudinal timeline assessments of like, you know, all UFO oversight is this great article by Chris Sharp at the liberation times. Oh yeah. It's really interesting stuff. And there's some connections you've made between Woods hole and like, you know, some of the, you know, yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You know, that's like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. And then actually it's this way deeper sort of thing around like human, like signal, like the fact that we're like probably getting downloads and stuff. And actually there's a book called above black by a guy named Dan Sherman. And he goes, he's like sort of recruited into this like nondescript, you know, NSA building. And I've heard some from an,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And, and Randy Anderson story. But I also just want to touch on, you know, he talks about how it was the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which was before the National Security Act, before the CIA was formed. They were sort of in charge of the initial UFO custody. And I think we have a decent map of actually what occurred.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So David Grush says that there's this magenta crash in Lombardy in Italy in 1933. Exactly. I've now made the connection through some people, this woman, Pippa Malmgren, who's amazing. She's really interested in the UFO thing, but she was actually special assistant to George W. Bush. She made it clear to me that James Jesus Angleton was the U.S. like OSS person involved in Italy at the time.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And so rumors are that you have this magenta crash and then Mussolini goes to Hitler and says, is this yours to the Nazis? Right. And then they end up working together on it. And so this magenta crash ends up.
American Alchemy
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probably being worked on by the Nazis, which explains these, like, Die Glocke, you know, rumors, and Kammlerstab, and sort of modern Czechoslovakia and Poland, where they're working on these flying saucers. You have tons of reports around this, from Rudolf Schreiber, Richard Mita, a bunch of guys at the time.
American Alchemy
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Along with Paul Mellon and Alan Dulles, there's a story of Paul Mellon kind of spilling the beans to his grandson, who's alive now, John Warner IV, about standing over a UFO that can employ exotic flight principles in modern-day Czechoslovakia. Wow. And so you kind of can come up with this thread of like the Lombardi magenta crash happens. It goes to the Nazis.
American Alchemy
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Maybe there's some custody where the Vatican is involved as well.
American Alchemy
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I've heard that from Grush. And then it goes over to the U.S. and then it's worked on at Wright Airfield. And you have all these Operation Overcast paperclip Nazi scientists who then... That's part of the rush to get the Nazi scientists, is to get the ones who are this deep on really exotic flight principles and UFO stuff.
American Alchemy
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We now know Hans Kammler himself, who's in charge of the blackest of the black Wunderwaffe programs for the Nazis, made his way to the US. And so you kind of have this... somewhat consistent narrative of like what happened with this early UFO crash and how the U S started to get involved with this stuff.
American Alchemy
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And all the guys who were involved in the early Marshall plan and tech transfer programs, Kissinger was an army counter Intel guy who is doing tech retrieval at the time.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. And apparently Marconi's grandson might be like on the verge of saying something. You have this Pinotti, this Italian UFO researcher who's like really on that trail.
American Alchemy
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an extremely credible source high up in government where if i were to give you this person's title it's just completely beyond reproach saying that that program probably existed he so he's recruited to this like nsa you know nondescript building and basically told to do all sorts of weird mind matter experiments like collapse a sine wave he's given these like binaural beats and then like
American Alchemy
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Well, there's a scientific principle called the Kiwanda effect and it involves stabilizing basically a saucer like craft. And there's a pat, this guy's Henry Kiwanda was this guy's Romanian scientist. He has a patent on this from 1936 and, And I think at points he was in Vichy, France, but he basically was forced to work under the Nazis.
American Alchemy
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And then he was taken to Wright Patterson to work on Project Y, which was an extension of the Avrocar project, which is trying to get flying saucers to work. And so and then William Steinman connects this with Thomas Townsend Brown and his gravity experiments where.
American Alchemy
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They were coordinating with Thomas Townsend Brown and wanted to see if the gravity stuff worked so they could incorporate it into these saucers or whatever that they had.
American Alchemy
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Well, that's the Lazar rumor as well, which is that like Russians were at Area 51 too. And there was sort of this co-space program. And that was always, there's, you know, SALT. This is even public. This is open source. In the SALT 1 negotiations, I think it was 1971 treaty, we're talking about coordinating with the Russians together.
American Alchemy
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On the UFO question, because we were worried that they'd mistake it for American acts of aggression. That's what Kennedy probably wanted to do as well. So maybe there is some sort of international space program around the UFO thing. I don't know.
American Alchemy
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It feels hard for me to believe that the surface-level geopolitics that we see is totally fake. I do think tensions are at an all-time high with China. But it is interesting. I think in the Lazar account, it's like the Russians started to get kicked out as tensions rose around the development of these ARVs and stuff. It brings up it harkens back to this Carl Nell quote.
American Alchemy
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You know, Carl Nell, who was part of the UAP task force with David Grush, was also deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and I believe was stationed at Wright-Patterson Airfield.
American Alchemy
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Army Futures Command. And he says there's this sub Rosa secret conflict arms race going on between us and other countries. It's been going on for decades.
American Alchemy
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Well, if you think about what the Manhattan Project was, it was all about payload potency, magnitude. And it's like, how can you create a bigger bomb? And then at a certain point when you're at the Tsar bomb level or whatever, you're at, you know, 80 megatons plus, it doesn't matter. That's too big for any target. You have tons of Tsar bombs. It's like, it's, you know, game over for the world.
American Alchemy
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At that point, it becomes the second Manhattan project becomes about payload delivery. And it becomes like, who can deliver this payload faster and stealthier? And, you know, it was ICBMs and then it was stealth fighters and, you know, and so it's, that's, it's a scary world. And I almost don't even love,
American Alchemy
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basically he's used as like a sort of, you know, human antenna for like alien signals. And it's part of this thing he calls project preserved destiny. And he says that he's genetically been manipulated in the womb and more and more. I interviewed yesterday, a psionic asset who was recruited through the gate program through these gifted student programs or whatever.
American Alchemy
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talking about UFOs in this context, because I think it's the sacred ontological metaphysical thing, which should really drive people weapons.
American Alchemy
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But I do think that that, that might be a reality driving some of this stuff.
American Alchemy
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Given that, that this technology is probably a forcing function for extreme good or extreme evil. Think about nuclear fusion. It could destroy the world, or it could save the world.
American Alchemy
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Do you believe, because that is part of the Stephen Greer narrative, the lost century. I'm not convinced that, I believe that we displayed some local effects around over unity, free energy, lower energy, nuclear reaction, you know, whatever. But the idea that we have scalable free energy that we're hiding in black compartments feels hard for me to believe, but I'm open. What do you think?
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I can't say I'm a high conviction in any direction there. But how do you like what's the thrust or what's the motivation for your research? Is it just like truth seeking or how do you have a hope for how this sort of UFO thing ends? Because it seems like we've crossed a Rubicon of late as far as people's acceptance.
American Alchemy
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And exploitation of humans? Yeah.
American Alchemy
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It's definitely bad. Yeah, it's not cool. And then the idea, too, where I don't feel like I have probably the most concrete and good orientation towards this. And it's something I struggle with because it's like you cover some of this stuff and it just leads you into dark territory. Yeah. And it leads you into the territory of like. Yeah. I want people to know that this stuff is real.
American Alchemy
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And so more, I think more and more is coming out of the woodwork around like kids and gifted people and, like, clairvoyance being approached at a very young age for downloads and signals that they're getting. And this guy named Andre Puharich, who... I believe he wrote a book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
American Alchemy
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That reality is more expanded than we realize. But the only way to do that is to uncover some pretty gnarly, messed up truths around like how this stuff has become operationalized.
American Alchemy
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And the government's orientation towards this is how can this confer a tactical advantage for us? And I think the orientation should be, how can this beget more meaning for people and civil side infrastructure updates? And then great, if there are derivative technologies that allow us to protect the free world in a more effective way, of course, they should be funneled to like the right thing.
American Alchemy
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But it feels like the impetus, like the sole impetus is weaponization of this stuff. Yeah. And I don't think that ends well if there's an intelligence on the other side of it, which I think there is. I don't think that ends well for us. If that continues to be our orientation towards this topic, we're dealing with forces way greater than us.
American Alchemy
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And I don't think it's a coincidence that OSAP and a lot of these programs, the people come out and they're kind of haunted. They have these hitchhiker effects. I think it's sort of, you know, the two sort of mantras in UFO research world are like, seek and you shall find and fuck around and find out.
American Alchemy
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Stares right back. And it's a mirror of what you feel. And people, the description of the sphere often when people, you know, are, are, are looked, you know, they're looking for the psionic connection between less participant and these materials. They're often what's inside of them gets excavated and mirrored in this technology. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
It is a very frightening world. I just retweeted Scott Adams, you know, the Dilbert creator. And he said, you know, wherever there is complexity, there is fraud. And I just thought that was so applicable to the UFO question.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
There is an absurd amount of complexity to the point where disclosure is taking a quantum leap around this Jake Barber story and some of the other stories and like mainstream media could not give less of a shit. They don't understand. It was horrible timing around the inauguration, like peak news mania. And then that's when you release this thing that's beyond the pale for most people.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And you're, you're, you're piecemealing in psionics and all these other things. And that, that's, And I love Ross Coulter. I think he's an amazing investigative reporter. And I think Jake is beyond reproach as well. So it's not a knock on either of them. It's a knock on the timing and maybe News Nation's editing team.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And he had these space kids back in the day where he'd recruit all these kids to upstate New York. And he had this roundtable institute in Maine. And the space kids were meant to basically get downloads. And Star Trek came from one of these downloads. Gene Roddenberry was inspired by this woman named... Phyllis Schleman, I don't know, Phyllis something. And that sort of inspired all of Star Trek.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That was not good. And then everybody started. It started to be vindicated when Ross did this amazing follow up.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
They couldn't care less. And it's wild to see realities just diverge so starkly where it's like UFO world is on another planet, literally.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. Dude, that guy's like motivated by the right stuff. Yeah. He's pieced together so much. Yeah. And he's been treated like shit.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Hundreds of documents, I think maybe 1,000 pages plus to the IC Inspector General, Thomas Monheim, who's now out, and they haven't done anything about it.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And unless you can look at those documents, and all we have is that Thomas Monheim said it was urgent and credible. And nobody has debunked anything in those documents. So unless you can debunk stuff in those documents, then you need to take action on what this guy is saying. It's absurd.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Where Ken Klipstein... Basically, Klippenstein... he admitted to, uh, uh, cigar and crystal, uh, crystal and cigar, the, um, the breaking points, you know, guys, he admitted that like the DOD and IC like tipped him off on the story basically. Yeah. So it's, it's just crazy. Like, uh, and then, uh, the USA ID we now know is funding the intercept.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I don't know how much of that specifically made its way to Ken Klippenstein, but like, And the dude has all these like secret sources from the USAID. So he's like, he's a bad faith actor.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Absolutely. And I made a tweet to that effect and I got threatened. Somebody threatened to sue me and I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to amplify them. They're really bad actors. And they've also questioned the service records of, you know, Randy Anderson and Jake Barber, which is just, I think, disgusting, to be honest. Like, don't go after that, you know?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
These guys just... And we have one of them specifically has a clearance and it's like, I don't know what he's up to. I don't know if he's about, I don't know if he's actually actually acting like he wants to be a paid disinfo agent, but he hasn't gotten the contract yet. And he's actually just like this small time guy.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah, totally. And they don't listen to any of the details and their priors are entirely off because they take nothing seriously. So their Occam's razor is it's all mass hysteria, which if you look at the levels of government that are now saying that this is real, your Occam's razor is like a cabal controlling all these people.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
It's the greatest mass hysteria in the history of... It's the best PSYOP in the world by standard deviations, if that's your claim, which is itself a fantastical null hypothesis. So these people are... They suck, honestly.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
No, it's not at all. If anything, intelligence community tactic to kind of repress this stuff has been flood the zone. There's too much snake oil to sift through for the average person. I think it moved from secrecy under Blue Book in the 50s and 60s and then the 80s at some point around the Majestic 12 stuff
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And EG&G, I think, actually picked up a lot of the work there. And so it's super fascinating.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
this stuff started to get promoted, but with all sorts of quackery and you have air force office of special investigations agent and other counterintel people like Rick Doty being like, there are six alien being in like John Lear saying, you know, there's a soul catcher on the moon.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. So that it's just, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to, cause I think, um, earnest debate is always good. And Mick West, people say he's like a paid asset or whatever. I, you know, I enjoyed like having him on to debate Merrick and they were debated all the top UFO videos. And I thought that was like fun and good.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And he doesn't seem like, you know, he's like, I want more light shine shown on this. I think he could be a little more like earnestly open to some of this stuff. But like some of these other guys are just, just like bad vibes. And like, it's totally, it's all ad hominem and it's, it's, uh, you know, they threaten lawfare and stuff and it's whack. It's like, it's, I hope you, uh,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I don't know, just introspect a little bit. Again, read between the lines, see if this applies to you. Because I don't want to mention anybody, but it's like, just think about what you're doing. Are you really on the right side of history?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Well, go watch your channel too, UAP Gerb, because it's a, like I said, it's literally a fire hose. It's a cannon of like absurd amounts of information to the point where you can't just dismiss it all. There's something going on. Even if that something is slightly adjacent to the consensus truth, we all think on aliens, UFOs, maybe the rest of the iceberg doesn't look like the tip of the iceberg.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That's fine. I don't think anybody on the pro UFO side is dogmatic about that. I think it's just, this stuff is worthy of investigation, which clear,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah, that he engaged in protocols to basically download all sorts of information. And he, I believe, started a biotech company called Vivex Biotech and sold it for 88 million bucks or something crazy like that. And he claims that a lot of that was derived from downloads that he got. And I spoke to him for a very brief period of time over the phone once. He sort of disappeared on me after that.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. No, they're an enormous amount. And anybody in the government capacity looking at this sort of, you know, earnestly always comes to the same conclusion, which is there's something probably here.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Clearly. Well, Sammy, UAP group, this has been an absolute honor. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? I mean, there are probably... A hundred other things you could talk about.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
We didn't even get to that story of the whistleblower who talked about Was it an egg shaped craft like off on the Azores, like off of Portugal? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That C one thirties are often transport or what do you mean? Good research.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I love it, man. Well, go subscribe to UAP Gerb. Check out. You're doing a follow up with Randy Anderson. It'll probably be out or around out about when we put this out. And I know you're going to do an amazing job there. And you're not only going to talk about, you know, talk to him, corroborate his story, but also or try to stress test it, you know, whatever.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
But also go really deep into, you know, the specific contractor SAIC, which was likely involved in this sort of, you know, psychotronic or psionic research. So, yeah, it's been an honor, Sammy. Really appreciate you stopping by, man.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And, you know, his whole thing was like, you know, don't use your phone and tap in. And like, you know, it all felt like, on the one hand cliche, but maybe actually really fundamental, important advice as far as, you know, being able to gain access to, you know, better, better stuff or whatever from, I don't know, the whole thing's really trippy.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
In Corso's testimony... Which, by the way, we know that existed. Correct, yeah. The Interplanetary Phenomena Unit, we know that that existed, which is crazy. We knew that a group named that existed between, what, 4750 or something?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So those are disputed. But the Steinman thing, I believe Steinman contacted somebody in the federal government to gain more access. And they basically said the records had been deleted.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But in the scalar field, you can get like scalar longitudinal waves. You get all these interesting wave types and you don't get the same decay. And so maybe we are downloading thoughts via one of these sort of scalar field waves. That would just be one thought experiment. I don't know. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
deceive the public send the public down the string theory rabbit hole and take all the stuff that DeWitt and Witten and Brown were doing and make this part of this secret black project stuff I think it's hard to say whether we just had updates in topological physics and experimental physics and we figured out some anomalies and like locally useful frameworks where it's like we know how this works in the context of a single you know of this stealth aircraft but like how generalizable that gets like how much you can do with that I don't know
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's a total black box to me. And I don't know how coordinated the sequestering of that. There's a ton of smoke. There's not a lot of fire. It's just hard to say. And then you can either say it was like sequestered by, you know, just humans, you know, where it's like, you need topside science, you need black side science or whatever. which we definitely have.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I mean, that's ridiculous to say we don't even like, you know, Mark Andreessen and Ben Horowitz, I think we're at the White House and like some National Security Council person was like, yeah, we're going to like regulate AI just like we regulated physics in the past. Physics? You're talking about physics? So like this has definitely been done. The idea that it hasn't been done is absurd.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so is that coordinated on a human level? Do you believe the three body problem stuff where the aliens are controlling the way science emerges to begin with? And like, are they like playing deceptive tricks on our top scientists and then like inspiring other scientists? Like, you get into these like crazy questions. I don't know how it went down. Have we made updates in science in the black?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Like you watch my Townsend Brown documentary. I think it's hard to come out of it being like, this stuff is fake. Like if you actually like ingest the details, it's like pretty- And even me, I have to think probabilistically, but am I 80%?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
no that that was um the jake interview was simultaneously felt historic and epic and he was so articulate and like such a good you know purveyor of intelligent dude so intelligent similar to grush yeah yeah totally and then where it was incredibly frustrating even in a way that like grush grushes like can get into the theory and speculation And is like a good fact finder.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it felt like with Jake, he was just, he really wanted to like keep to like the core details of like what he experienced. And it made it, it was a little frustrating for me because I think I'm strongest on the theory stuff. And like, that's why I always want to get into that shit.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But I do think something like that will get proven out just given the phenomenology of thought or invention where like a wheel pops up in Africa at the same time as South America. Yes. You look at the phenomenology of science, it looks way more like revelation than it does like... Quantum mechanics or something. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like, I understand his position to like not want to, you know, totally go off the rails and speculate into crazy stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And top of a mountain. Yep. Yep. Yep. And he had to, like, retrieve that. And then they were trying to, like, sever the hidden... Like, they were trying to, like, basically...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
uh get rid of him and like like because when you're when you're like sheep dipped like that and you're like you know director of operations for a helicopter uh company there's so much plausible deniability your employer can just be like that dude what do you tell that guy's crazy you know just like people in the public are now saying you know jake's crazy or whatever even if you know you know all these guys with dd214s and like clear history are like coming to back him up and i think he's totally legit but like who's coming who's backing him up
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
This guy, Don Paul, Don Paul Bales, other guys that Ross Coulthart has interviewed. So he's one. Fred Baker is another. John Blitch, I think, knows him less well, doesn't have as much of a history with him, but he's a DARPA guy. uh, who's come out and he vetted him, I think on behalf of Grush and some other people to see if he was the real deal.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like, he was like, yeah, this guy's story totally comports with like the, that world that I've, you know, come to know and research a little bit.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It feels crazy to me too. The thing, the question that that begets, which I think is really important that we should all question is like, you hear that we only have, I don't know, 10 to 15 UFOs in our possession. They're in specific hangers or whatever, or maybe you get one, you know, some people say one to two crashes a year.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So that would be, you know, since Roswell, maybe since a little before that, say 120 or whatever, you know, whatever. But if you can like summon these things on command, then you'd expect us to have a thousand plus. Right. If you have a thousand plus, you're going to get leakage. Yes. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So like, it can't be this, like you put a coin in the slot machine that, you know, the drink comes out sort of vibe. Like it can't just be this like extremely repeatable, predictable thing. Right. It has to be more hard to, you know, successfully do than that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so, yeah, there are all these questions that the interview begets that I think people should ask because I, yeah, I don't know the answer to them.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It looks like something's popping into the person's head every single time, whether it's the rock staring at the fire at Cambridge coming up with the rock equation or Einstein at his desk as a patent clerk. Like it literally it's the exception to the rule is like I just finished the equation on the whiteboard. No, you're like in the shower. You're like there's so many examples.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And Jake has said I would 100 percent testify before Congress. And so that again, that show of confidence, I think, is important, you know, to which look, my guess is Congress has been lied to before. Yeah. Like I've been in like rooms with Conrad and I'm like, God, these guys are so, they're not smart.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But like, but you know, I think just the fact that he's willing to do that, I think, and go under oath under, you know, threat of perjury, I think is, you know, a good display. So again, I think that the details are, you know, everybody has to think probabilistically, but I think they're pretty solid. And then it's like, there are so many other questions it begets where it's like, what?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
there's some sort of portal that's permanently opened with you if you're able to interact with this stuff or even see it to where now like you have all you have unlimited access to all this crazy um paranormal stuff yeah like some of the stuff that you see at skinwalker that's extremely common like everybody's yeah all the skinwalker is a great example and in those cases i think it was very negative because again i think if you're trying to like weaponize this stuff it explains yeah these kind of hauntings where these you know aerospace practitioners come home and they're
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
their kids and their family get haunted by this stuff. It is like they have like residue. Lou Elizondo always calls it a sticky portfolio. And I think he calls it that for a very specific reason, which is like stuff gloms onto you. Yeah. Like what, you know, it's like you stare at the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back. And I think that's just a truism, especially in this topic.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
what it's it's it's weird and at times I see you know all the infighting and I'm like I'm like tired like I just want like more of like a normal life and like why am I like covering this like it's just so ridiculous it's so easy to get fatigued by it it is it is I think Like the meta psyop would be like, you get distracted by this internal drama or whatever.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like a rule that I really try to adhere to is I don't go after anybody ad hominem. There's like a map that I have of UFOs. And like, I should say this for the sake of your audience and my audience. There are people I've interviewed that I suspect have ulterior motives.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't call out those ulterior motives because I'm in enough danger seeking truth and I don't want people specifically coming after me because I'm fucking with them. Not only that, But there are people with ulterior motives where, like we said earlier, there are elements of truth to what they say. People can tell the truth in limited ways and have ulterior motives.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Uh, so yeah, I think, you know, Heisenberg at Helgoland, you know, making all these downloads about, you know, how, how, uh, you know, electrons make quantum leaps and, you know, electron cloud, like it's just, it's sort of constant.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's what people don't understand. So you can sift out valuable stuff. So I think the best way is just be open, friendly, cool with everybody. I'm cool with the two guys you just mentioned. I guess I haven't met yet, but I would be cool with him. I just try to have an open, honest, fun conversation and then glean out
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
what i think is true and honestly ask rhetorical if there's any untruths you ask rhetorical questions that like show on the face of it that like there's something kind of going on here but like you don't have to call it out directly because it's just you're just going to end up in some food fight on twitter and it's going to waste your time and you're not going to get close to the truth that way right you're going to get distracted by like getting into it the times i feel conflicted about having that predisposition is like
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I do think there's been like harassment of people and I see it on like Twitter and other places and like that fucks with me. Cause I'm like, I want to like come out and defend, you know, uh, uh, anybody who's been harassed just for looking into this stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then, and I, and by the way, I've faced it too. And there's stuff I could tell you that would like, I'll tell you, I could tell you off air. That's like, it's fucking crazy as far as stuff that's happened. Come my way. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah. So like that, that riles me up for sure. Wanting to defend other people.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Um, but otherwise, man, it's just like, it's a, it's not, it's a fool's errand trying to like get, you know, come after somebody. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You know? So I just, I try to stay like pretty, you know, Switzerland-esque.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's not good, man. Anchorist is not. Oh, no.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So I, so Tim Taylor saying that it's like, yeah, I think that's real, but, and then, and then, and then I don't know, it's hard to sift through some of the other quackiness. I'm not, I don't want to endorse any of the stuff that he says is definitively real, but it's interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Thank you for saying that. I don't know if that's a good spot to be in. Well, that's what I'm saying.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think I'm being fully tracked at all times. I think every conversation, every text, every interaction. And I think there are insights that I've probably come to that have been gleaned and taken for profit or whatever. And, you know, that's kind of weird. But like you got to just kind of ignore it, put your blinders on, keep going. It used to get to me more.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And now I just try to, you know, I think if you have pure intentions and you're just trying to seek truth, then I think things end well for you karmically, you know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
but yeah for sure it's a weird spot to be in I think it is partially because like if somebody tells me something and then they say not to say it like I respect relationships like I don't if somebody you know is providing a you know is a source for something like I really I don't fuck people over right like I and even like I think in the microeconomics of like podcasting journalist world it's like some of these people would like
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
push their grandma in front of a moving taxi for a tip, you know, for a story. And it's like, I just don't do that shit. Like I just, I, uh, you know, and then if it, that cuts against the truth, I'm just not going to air it. I'm not going to put it out, you know, but I'll kind of walk away and not touch the fine China and be like, I kind of know what you're up to, but like, I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Here's the thing. National security, Jesse. I think that's a counterfactual. I don't think the CIA has everything. I don't think the government has everything. And I realize this might be slightly evading your question, but it's like genuinely, I think it's so important to emphasize for people. Like this is not a file that you can just get.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
The government has tons of data that like reality is not what it seems. They probably have metamaterial. There's probably some biologics. There's probably, you know, there's a lot of stuff that where they like know reality is way weirder than reality. what the average civilian does.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And in fact, I think that you would say this too, the closer you get to government circles, the more they're conspiratorial than the average citizen. Like they're more conspiratorial. So they know that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Does that mean they have like an ontological worldview, a map of what the aliens are, what their intentions are, how many races there are, where they're from, whether they're interdimensional, extraterrestrials? Absolutely not. I think maybe you get into certain core circles and areas, they have better frameworks than people on the civil side do.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No way. I would never get funded if the funding involves steering the content. No. If it's educational and in order to tell the truth about something and there was some public-private partnership, I would...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
entertain it especially if i could be open to that to the public and i wasn't like lying about that yeah for sure like i don't think like everybody in government's like a bad person or like it's not a monolith right for sure um but yeah no i wouldn't like i wouldn't do some like intentional limited hangout thing yeah yeah it'd be it'd be a interesting bridge to cross if the opportunity ever presented itself i always think about that is that your pitch danny you're like you're like just hit me up that's so funny
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I had like a 20 minute call with him. Really? Yeah. How did that come about? I can't say because I will say anything on any podcast. I'll always be public, but I want to protect... Sources? Yeah, sources. Exactly. I just don't want to like burn relationships. Sure. Can you tell what you talked about him with? What you talked about with him? Yeah. Well, the impetus on my end...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
uh yeah would it matter because i mean most people online already think that we're a cia i know dude it's exactly half the people are like he's a spook and he's funded by peter teal yeah right yeah you're already you're already you got an uphill battle that's an uphill battle for sure for sure and like i don't know i always just like okay don't trust anything i'm saying like fine and then like the people who do like you're gonna learn a lot of crazy shit because i'm from
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
feeling like really crazy shit stuff that i came to on my own and honestly i've lost i put a lot of money like like the opportunity cost involved in like study like going after ufos like i managed like nine figures of capital like i was investing a lot of money in a way that would have been like really good for my future if i wanted like a chill good life like i had that like set up
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like I easily could have kept going on the path I was going on, do some conventional venture fund, you know, have fucking cocktails at happy hour in LA, go to fucking Beverly Hills hotel and go to like, I could have done that. And I, and I decided to go like a way more masochistic route. So it's fine. Like you can call me whatever, but like, trust me, it's not fucking that. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I honestly don't do that much of it anymore. It's like, yeah, it's like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
most of what we've done like i'm managing up on you know like existing investments and just making sure they're going well and i'm like in touch with the you know the fund managers that i've sourced as well as uh the companies themselves and then occasionally if something jumps the bar and feels like a no-brainer i'll do a little bit of i'll do diligence on like you know an early stage thing where it's more qualitative and not quantitative analysis and i'll do a deal but it's like i was deploying much more money three years ago than i am now so it's just slowed down right
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, I don't want to put it out there. Really? Yeah, there are, well... There are probably good factions that are angelic, you know, to use a simple term, and then bad factions that are demonic. And then what are the demonic things doing?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's like maybe they're mining our attention, you know, like Robert Monroe, who studied consciousness and, you know, Virginia has this institute, you know, that he started. Like he had this concept of loosh. And so maybe there's stuff like that going on where like when you're in a zombie state, where does your consciousness go? Maybe that's sort of like a mining process.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But then you look at like, you know, scapegoating cycles, like pagan scapegoating cycles. And like, I don't know, you get into weird territory and like it's hard to...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
i don't know what the darkest you know theory is but um i think that the good ones are like don't don't interfere as much with you yeah and you're more like you're ascending to their level and it's like a two-way bilateral connection where like one of my favorite quotes is uh the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's like, there's once, if you can like increase your own, you know, kind of spiritual sense and your knowledge and you can increase the purity of your intention, I think you get closer to truth around a lot of these things. And I think this idea, this bifurcation, this idea that it's just academic rote knowledge that you have to learn.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then this kind of, you know, spiritual sense, like that's totally different. Like your own, you know, moral development as a person. Yeah. I think they go hand in hand. And I think the more you do that, the more you have synchronicities, the more you get in touch, you feel this sort of angelic guidance in your life, the more you feel protected.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so I think whatever's good is like this kind of non-interferent initiation process. And then the bad stuff, you know, I don't know. In the world in which these beings exist, they're probably behind a whole lot of human affairs and they're probably stoking wars and causing violence and division. And then you have to ask why, and I don't know why.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So I always, I invest in venture capital.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah, I've seen more than one.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think that's totally valid. And I definitely don't want to have an abduction experience. Like I actually get everybody I interview who's had an abduction experience. My buddy from Yes Theory, Amar Kandil, who does a lot of the shows with me, I make him come with me because he's like this like positive energy, like protective energy bubble. And I'm like, I get spooked. I get freaked out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Even with Whitley, I was a little freaked out. Dude, I've never been more terrified. Yeah. And he'll say stuff like, oh, people, he said it with you. I remember he said like people who are with me sometimes have like experiences. And I remember you're like, I was like, I don't want that. He's like, it might happen.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I think, um, Annie Jacobson, when she wrote a great book, the phenomenon. Um, also I think she was like, she was talking to Jacques Vallée and she was like, please like, don't, don't, I just don't want to get abducted. Like I'll study this stuff, but yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Once you start studying this stuff, you, the second you realize like a switch in your brain goes off and you're like, okay, this person's not crazy. And they've been abducted. Like this stuff's actually just real. Then it freaks you out. Cause you're like, Oh, am I, you know? So I, I, I feel that on the abduct. I don't want to get abducted, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Same, same. But I do think there's a huge difference between that and being inspired by some cool craft in the sky. I think that's kind of chill. Yeah. And for me, that was a beautiful, great experience. What did you see exactly? Although I will say abduction experiences, I think over 50% are often described as positive. Over 50% are positive, at least in the free Edgar Mitchell study. Oh, okay.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He's a Palantir honey trap. Jesse Michaels. I am not. I am not. You're furthering the internet bullshit, Danny. Come on, man. Just kidding. Just kidding.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I know. I know. And a lot, a lot are, and a lot, again, if it goes back to that like droid gray thing where it's like, we do not fear, but then they're like bleeding everywhere and they like put a little thing in you and it's going to be blackout. And it's like, Oh God, that doesn't sound good at all. Um, my, uh, UFO experience. Well, I had, I had two that like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think a lot of people that are into it are like ultimately meaning seekers and they want like kind of a... They want to understand the reality of religion. They want to understand metaphysics. And so I think UFOs are just a foray. They're just one kind of route in. But I think combining that with money is a very weird thing. I mean, it's like sort of the modern Catholic indulgences or something.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
really stand out and that are, one was in Laurel Canyon. And I talked about this on Julian Dory's podcast as well, where it looked like a school bus or something. Like it was like nothing like prosaically that I ever see. And so that's why I'll call it a UFO. I don't know if it could have been aerospace, but it was... hovering above the treetops at like, you know, 40, 50 feet.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it was going across the treetops. And then the woman I was with, she said that she saw the thing like descend down like across the treetops in Laurel Canyon. I didn't see that. But what I saw was like, it was like this like kind of tesseract, like rectangle shaped, like school bus like thing that like I've just never seen before ever. and was so weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And the way it came about was also weird too, because aliens had just come up in our discussion. So it was like, one of us was like, do you believe in aliens? And then at some point I was like, yeah, I'm kind of super into aliens actually. I think it's really interesting. And then I was like, I'd be interesting to meet an alien. And then she goes, it'll come when you least expect it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And this is the weirdest part of the stories. We walk by a guy who's has a metal detector and it's like a little after sunset or sunset in Laurel Canyon. And it's like, why does he have a metal detector? He's like looking for something. And it says, it'll come when you, or she said, it'll come when you stop looking for it. And he's like looking for something. It's a little weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And that could be, again, me noticing too many patterns. But like, then we walk and we just see this little clearing and then the thing goes over. And I'm like, what the fuck? What color was it? It was gray, metallic.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And yeah, it was like, seemed like, I don't know, it wasn't making like enough noise where like the amount of weight that it was carrying, like you'd expect like an absurd amount of noise. Yeah. Like Apache level, like 10 Apache level, you know? So super, super strange.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it was around a time in my life where I was experiencing a lot of kind of like interesting synchronicities and like things would kind of pop into place. You know, that was when I, I was around the time when I met Diana Pasolka actually. And like, I started to kind of take, take more of a dive down the, down the rabbit hole.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And the other time I was doing holotropic breath work in Silver Lake with a friend, a friend who's, I won't out him, but he's a prominent investor. Who's like as rational as it gets, like, he's actually really interested in like philosophy and, you know, academic science and stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like the way he described his worldview is like the natural philosophers, like David Hume, super into Noam Chomsky. Like he couldn't be more like the material world is what it is. Like he's kind of like a material world, like a materialist atheist, you know, And we had just gone surfing. And then we're back at his spot in Silver Lake.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I wanted to teach him holotropic breath work, which is I love holotropic. It's the best. And we're doing it. And he kind of like five minutes in, like your hands can kind of clam up. It's like a common thing. And like you get into like an interesting state. And all of a sudden he looks up and he's like, what is that? Oh my God. Two metallic or like one above him, one above me.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Exactly. Yeah. Love Julian. Great guy. And yeah, so I worked at the family office for a long amount of time. And even now, I still have a contract with them and I do investing. But I mainly focus on the show. It's like 90, 95% show at this point. Um, but, uh, yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They look like they're way too high to be, you know, prosaic aircraft. I wouldn't be able to tell you like what, you know, 60,000, 80,000, but like they were high up and they were like bobbing, like hovering and, And, uh, he go, this is so funny. Like initially he goes, I goes, what? I go, what the fuck do you think those things are?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. The Laurel Canyon one was 2020. That was either 2020 or 2021. Okay. Either late 2020 or early 2021. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he was trying to do it when you were with him.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And do you, I don't know, like, okay, gun to your head, you're wrong and you die. Okay. Would you say that that was like... human aircraft or prosaically explained ball lightning or whatever, or like some kind of celestial, like other worldly thing?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But was there anything that would, you know, cause ball lightning? I had no idea. I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So one of the companies that I was invested in was, uh, you know, a rocket company and they were struggling rocket rocketry is incredibly hard. It's, it's, uh, it's got a very high failure rate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's absurd.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It kind of starts going to the right too. Yeah. Yeah. And then it kind of goes back. It kind of zigs it. Yeah. Like what flies like that? I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Do you sense interesting energy when you're around him? Like, do you just feel?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I mean, the amount of, you're talking about like thousands of sub components and like, you know, one thing fails and you get this chain reaction, the whole thing screws up. So, um,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That seemed anomalous to me at the very least. That doesn't seem like if you were to do some like meta study on like the probability of seeing that even in a two hour period where you're staring at the sky, extremely low.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
What is that? Right. That's weird. Now, I'm not saying that that's definitely a UFO, an angel, an orb. I don't know. But I think it's worthy of investigation.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Do you get that vibe from him? I don't at all. No, I don't. I get, you know, maybe everybody in UFO world or a lot of people are credulous and high on the openness scale. I don't from my, you know, conversations with Chris blood. So I think he's a good person.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I don't think that's a hoax, man. No, it's not. There's something going on.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
uh we had had a you know a couple of failures and i always try to keep my um you know uh investment stuff and uh you know the the the quacky stuff that i'm into i always try to keep those separate um for for many reasons but i'm kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as you know it's like oh we're struggling to get off the ground Is this like a startup rocket company?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Crazy people. Where if, I mean, dude, like we're in like a cold war with China. Why would we be spending those sorts of resources on a guy who's seeing orbs, you know, in North Carolina outside his backyard if it weren't something actually kind of profound and interesting? Mm-hmm. Like, why? Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, Jim Semivan is, like, very well respected at the CIA. Yes. Like, he's, like, pretty, I think, high up. And, like, he spent a lot of time with Chris Bledsoe. Yeah. Like, they're good friends. Yeah. So, it's interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You want to know something funny? You could type in David Grush to this day. I'm not to toot my own horn, but that video I did with him is the best video that he has. And like, you can't find it. You could type in David Grush on YouTube and it's, News Nation, Rogan, a bunch of other things, and my thing is unsearchable.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And in five days, six days, got well over two million views, and then it just got throttled. I mean, working with Yes Theory on it, they have nine million subscribers on YouTube, And I'm showing them the stats, like the click-through rate and average feederation. They're like, we've never seen anything this high. Like what the fuck? And like you watch it and it's like very watchable.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's just impossible. Here, we're going through right now. It's like we're searching David with a C. Is that it? Yeah, but go to David, G-R-U-S-C-H. Have you seen it before though?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That looks good. We're back, baby. It definitely wasn't. And like, I have an email chain with Google about where it wasn't.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, also go on incognito. I do want to see if it's the same. Because you've seen the video.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, a new private window. Yeah, whatever. But you're saying that it can come back?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Okay, so we're good now. We're number two.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, let's do that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's my boy Chris Ramsey made an epic one.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And yours is just nowhere to be found.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
What?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, that was the same with the Grush thing for me originally. It was like all these like analysis of the video videos were ranking high.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So nuts, man. And yeah, yours was like the first big one.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it's a startup rocket company. And so I know about Tim Taylor being this NASA mission controller. He uses consciousness protocols to get rockets off the ground. And I also know about the history of rocketry where it's like Jack Parsons, the founder of JPL, and basically the American rocket program, or Tchaikovsky, the equivalent in Russia, or Wernher von Braun.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it's probably yours.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, right. View count, yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
3.9. Yeah, no, that's you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. NASA's forbidden aliens. Oh, there it is. Wow. Holy crap. Wow. Wow. That's wild, man. Isn't it weird? And you have it in your tags and stuff? Oh, of course.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Something was going on. And then it just went black. It's crazy to see mine number two. Yeah. Is that right? Well, dude, I swear to God. No, I know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, he told you that. Exactly. That mind fell off a cliff, views-wise.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Went completely invisible. And then Yes Theories, they say, okay, this is crazy. Yes Theories, they say it's the best stats they have on any video. And it's one of their lower, it's like in the lower 25% viewed videos. It only has 1.1 million views, which for them is, or 1.2 or 1.1 million views, which for them is extremely low. They have crazy, crazy high viewed stuff. And
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
the stats are like off the charts. So like, they're also like super conspiratorial about it. And they're like the most like kid friendly do-gooder. Like they're like the best vibes. Like they're not, and like, it's like breaking rules. They're not breaking rules. And like when they're like, yeah, we're getting throttled. Like I'm like, Oh yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, dude, Trump made that like misinformation is bullshit. Like, you know, it's like this like speech or whatever, like right when he got elected. I loved it to be honest. Misinformation is so condescending. Who is the arbiter of misinformation? Like, why are you, why do you decide? You're so wrong.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You've proven to be so incompetent in the context of the pandemic and COVID and all these other things, like the history of American false flags. Why are you the arbiter? Like why BBC Trusted News Initiative, CNN? You can say, what is misinformation? You don't think for yourself. Like, it's ridiculous. So let everything out and let people decide.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Let people decide what they think is bullshit and what they think is real.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
like maintaining their monopolies overseas like okay well if you're gonna if you're gonna censor this stuff we'll let you keep your monopoly in europe right like dude that stuff is crazy it's crazy and speaking of the that in the context of the ufo topic i should say the usaid funded the intercept we know that for sure ken klippenstein came out with basically leaked Dave Grush's medical records.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And that is what kind of marginalized Grush for a while. I mean, I think most people don't really realize it's bullshit. I mean, the dude like...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
was an Afghanistan combat veteran was deployed and like his buddy like died next to him was like mortared and stuff like it's just fucked up like it and that's what they're and like so like you know when he would drink occasionally he would like go through that it would re-simulate those feelings for him and
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Ken Klippenstein, who's working for a USAID-funded publication, is leaking these medical records right after Grush testifies before Congress to discredit him. It's just weird, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
All of these guys believed in versions of this. So I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel. Yeah, that's so crazy. Yeah. I basically like in my, you know, putting my investment hat on, I'm like, I'm a materialist reductionist.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Feels really coordinated.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We've just been living in managed reality for decades.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You were telling me some stuff here. I mean, I know that Menex, right, was like the DARPA search engine that...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like I don't want to bring the woo woo stuff in, but again, it's, you know, I, I, I'm like, if I have access to this guy, I got it, you know, find a way to meet him, pretend I'm not interested in UFOs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
SAIC was, you know, based in Palo Alto.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think it's what it ended up becoming. I think originally it was like around, like some of the fraud detection stuff they were doing at PayPal or whatever dovetailed with the software for Palantir. And then- I think the CIA became one of the first customers. Right. But I don't think it was created in conjunction with. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Right, right, right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I, I actually, that was literally the impetus actually was like helping on the rocket stuff. So It actually wasn't as much like the UFO thing.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
While you're looking that up – there was a project at DARPA called LifeLog and it was like, you know, like networking all these people and like their friends and like their friend networks. And I think it was shut down in 2003 or four right before Facebook started. So I do find that kind of interesting too, but I don't, I have, again, I have no idea if there's a connection there, but it is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I can't wait to read.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Wow. Well, I always found it interesting. Like they were kind of, I mean, it makes total sense, especially with the Snowden stuff in 2013, like Prism, Bull Run, all that stuff came out. And it's clear that the NSA just had like backdoors into like all of these big tech companies. And then they had, the NSA had a program, I think at the time called Heartbeat.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
which is you can basically query anybody's data or whatever in this centralized database repository. So we know that that was a thing at the very least. But I found it interesting when Google, as part of Project Maven, wouldn't work with the U.S. government, and then simultaneously they were going into China that same year. And so there's something... I'm like, how coordinated is this stuff?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so, yeah, we spoke and he said some interesting stuff. He was like, you know, most of it was actually kind of very like, like kind of platitudes around the American cosmic style stuff. Like, you know, use these protocols and tap in and like, don't use your phone. I was like, I already read that in the book that Pasolka published, but thank you.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And if it is coordinated...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Your number one donor.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Corporate donor.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. So it's funny, like we both, you know, are so dependent on YouTube and I do, I'm like, it does make me occasionally nervous because it's like, it does. I'm grateful to Elon Musk, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Alex Karp was?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's really interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I wouldn't suspect that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He donated to Kamal?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He's always described himself as a like.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. He's like super into Hegel and like, you know, very like almost like a neo-Marxist or something. Yeah. But then it's also.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
From back in the day. Yeah. That's Stanford law, I believe. Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I think their like mission in many ways is like they want to protect the free world. Yeah. And, you know, I think they are responsible for a lot of, you know, big threats to the US, you know, going down. And I think that's a pretty good thing. Yeah. Yeah. I know there are a lot of conspiracies about them. Oh, there's so many conspiracies, bro.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They're mostly, and that's what the other people don't understand. For me, they're mostly a black box. I don't really interact with them too much.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
She's like...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
dude she like frustrates me because she's clearly really smart and showing a ton of courage and like going deeper on like Epstein networks than like anybody else which is epic and then now she's like and now it's all you know Peter and Palantir whatever it's like no it's not and your book is so convoluted it's almost like if you wanted a psyop to throw people off the trail for Epstein it would be that book like it's so complicated and again I don't want to like it's an amazing work I haven't read it yet
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I've tried to read it. And it does, she makes all sorts of amazing connections. It's like a thousand pages long. It's just crazy. And she's doing an amazing service, I think. And so like very net positive Whitney Webb, but like, There's certain areas where it feels like she's just anti anybody who's rich and powerful, like anybody.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then he was also like, look, if you want the rocket to work, you know, maybe you have to get aligned with what they want. And I was like, who is it? They?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
She's anti Elon with all the stuff he's doing around free speech and the USAID and rooting them out of our institutions. Who do you wanna do that? You need somebody that powerful to do that. So who's, ultimately,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
politics like is where like the battleground takes place and like it's a power game yeah and you need the people with who are the most powerful like who probably made certain expedient alliances to get to where they are yeah like doing things to like get anything done yeah and i feel like she's super like if you if you are not yes so cynical and if you are not like you don't pass some like crazy purity litmus test you are the devil or whatever and like
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I would just say, like, look, yeah, like, maybe everybody at the elite strata or whatever has, like, you know, had to, you know, at times make unholy alliances. Right. But, like, whose side are you on? And I think, like, some real good is being done in this, like, new Trump admin. Yeah, me too. With Elon and Tulsi and, like, Tulsi and RFK, like, I mean, those two specifically, like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Really, I think we're on the side of truth when it was unpopular, specifically RFK Jr. I mean, I love that guy. I think he's epic. So yeah, I'm a fan of Whitney Webb's, but I do think she could just be so like ideologically purist at times.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yeah like the non-human intelligence said this to you knowing that you weren't you didn't bring you didn't bring this first he brought it up first no i i brought it up oh i didn't bring i bring it didn't bring up non-human intelligence first he was the one yeah yeah yeah i know i just asked questions about rockets bless you bless you i just i just bless you bless you i just i was just asking questions about the rocket and getting it to work
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But yeah, I'm glad she exists.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
A hundred percent. Anybody at a certain level of power, unless it's like the Cirque du Soleil dude who like was like, you know, started from like with a homeless troop of circus people or like the Patagonia founder. Like occasionally you'll meet somebody where it's like, you got nothing. Exactly. But like anybody in the elite world of business, politics, government. Yeah. I'm sorry.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I can't name too many people where it's like, there aren't certain things that you, you know, had to do, you know? And so it's, it's, it's a human nature.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Totally. And I don't want to fucking do, I mean, that's a shitty, it's that being in politics now, like I grew up actually being like, maybe I'd want to be in politics when I was really little. I was like, maybe I'm interested in politics. It'd be cool. And then now I'm like, It's a selector for the worst people. Just the worst, like, just sellouts. Like, just spineless.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
The people who are just obsessed with optics. And, yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it's weird shit. It's weird shit for sure.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's going to be really fun. We're going to host all sorts of awesome conversations. And that's where you get some really good stuff. We'll link it all. We'll link it all for everybody. You're the best. There we go. Exclusive content. And then, yeah, on YouTube as well under Jesse Michaels.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We got to do it again. Hey, I'm down anytime.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Let's go. Oh, yeah. We got to surf, dude. Yeah, exactly. All right. Goodbye, everybody. Later.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yeah yeah and so did you ask did you follow up on that when he was like they did you ask who they were i i don't remember exactly i mean i'm sure i did um and i'm sure i was sure that when he said they he was talking about non-human intelligence either due to a follow-up question that i asked or something he made that kind of clear so yeah i don't know what to make of this stuff man i mean he even said like apparently like
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't, I don't know. You know, I've, I've heard that and, um, Pasolkas tweeted that and, um, But yeah, I think he does work occasionally with Elon. I know he works on some, I think, you know, some serious launches. He also works at Aerospace Corporation, which is a very interesting company.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It doesn't really work.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They're like a, I think they're kind of like a think tank. They have like 5,000 employees split between Virginia and, you know, Fairfax area and El Segundo. I have heard of this. And I think that, yeah, they show up in interesting places around the UFO question, for sure. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yep. Well, yeah. I mean, that's an example of like, should we like talk about... So this guy, Paul Benowitz, is outside Crittland Air Force Base. He sees this like... vertical takeoff and landing occur of probably some exotic craft or whatever, which to me doesn't mean look away. It's like, what is that? What's the initial thing you saw?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then Rick Doty, who's an Air Force Office Special Investigations Officer, enters into his life and kind of drives him crazy. And he ends up committing suicide. He's driven into psychiatric hospitalization. He's told that he's communicating with aliens via these signals.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yep. Yeah. So pretty nuts.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
God, dude, it's just, it's too much. Yeah, it's extremely confusing. I mean, here's what I would say. That seems like a massive waste of resources. Like to what end? Why are you getting all these kind of super high up guys at NASA, CIA to visit this guy?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So, but that points to there being some real like proto architecture underneath. Like there's a different, you can try to, you can attempt to manipulate or like shade a thing differently. And I'm, by the way, I'm not saying, I have no evidence that this at all happened. Right. And for example, Bledsoe's case. Sure. And he seems like a really earnest, good guy to me.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I'm, hopefully we can go, we can talk about maybe. Very sweet. Sweet guy. Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Awesome. Yeah, their whole family seems really cool. But I think you can have an experience and you can shade that experience differently versus like you didn't experience anything to begin with. Because it's like, why are you spending all this manpower and resources? It's like this huge waste of resources otherwise. And so if it's all...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
passage material or all some honey trap or like, I just, that feels like a little crazy to me. And then you have all this, you have like, so you have to think probabilistically with all this stuff. So like, there's the stuff where like the adjustment period, like the crazy stuff. Like to me, I hold that extremely loosely.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I catalog it as very low probability and I'll look for corroboration in the future for it. But like, if you're like, do you believe that's definitely a thing? I'm like, no. I don't have no idea. Right. Right. But then you have things like you have this book called UFOs and Nukes by a guy named Robert Hastings. And he documented we've talked about this.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He documents 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, guys that most psychologically sound people in the military.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They're on the PRP program, the personal reliability program, where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen or Tylenol. They inherently have to be the paradigm of a sound mind because you are guarding the crown jewels like you would never let a crazy person next to a nuke, right? And in certain cases, they have their finger on the button. And so all these guys see tic-tacs, saucers, orbs.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Often they're messing with comms links, shutting down the nukes, rendering them inoperable in the case of Malmstrom 67, Robert Salas. In, you know, 64, Vandenberg, you have a nuke wrapping around an Atlas V dummy missile and taking it out of the sky. And then you have Air Force Office of Special Investigations people like Rick Doty.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
In fact, Rick Doty is literally one of these people who shows up with this guy Mario Woods at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977. And swearing them to secrecy and saying, you know, never talk about this again and demoting them in cases where they do come out when they speak to Robert Hastings. Robert Hastings getting threatening phone calls.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so to me, if you were to, you know, like you have to think about everything is like a database and it's like, OK, there's one thing if you have like. the National UFO Reporting Center or MUFON. It's another thing if you have this database, which I would call UFOs and nukes, of these inherently very credible people coming forward saying they've seen things.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I did? Yeah. What did I tell you? Well, you said that... You said, I don't care. Okay, cool. You said that the views were like, you know, it was like doing 50K a day. Oh, yes. And then it cuts off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You speak to some rep at Google and they're like... We don't know what the hell happened here.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You could say, oh, okay, well, it's just some U.S. deep state cabal thing. You're like, okay. Maybe, but even then, your null hypothesis gets pretty fantastical and weird if that's what you're saying.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But then you look at Fukushima, Lino, which is a town right next to Fukushima, next to the prefecture where they have their civilian energy, nuclear energy grid, and they've had it there since the 70s. They're famous for their nuclear spill in 2011. And in the 90s, they built a museum dedicated to UFOs. And Vice did a documentary about how obsessed the townspeople are with UFOs.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's probably due to the nuclear energy presence. And you have a famous case in Bariloche, Argentina, where they have their civilian nuclear grid where, you know, a commercial pilot sees a UFO and you have stories around Chernobyl. And so this nuclear connection is extremely important.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then you hear about UFOs basically being bound up within nuclear secrecy and Battelle Memorial Institute being, you know, very big part of UFO research.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You look at the special definition of nuclear material under the Atomic Energy Commission, which was in 1954, and it's basically any material emitting any sort of radiation, so alpha, beta, gamma, anything, is born secret, and it's restricted data, meaning that You don't even have to fall under the direct clearances of government.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It doesn't make any sense given the click-through rate, average view duration, which should basically define the video's performance. He goes, the one other time I've seen this is with Jesse's David Grush video. Exactly. Performance fell off a cliff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
If you are a private aerospace corporation and you pick this stuff up, it is restricted for you too. So it's like born classified. So you have all this evidence that there's this kind of like DOE atomic research UFO thing. That's been going on for a very long time. And I think that's where you have to start this coherent picture. And then, yeah, there's psyops, there's weird shit.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But I think what people don't understand is that if there are psyops around a thing, it means the thing is more likely to be real. How many Bigfoot psyops do you know? None. Yeah, because nobody would fucking believe it. Right. PSYOPs are 95% true and 5% false, and the 5% that's false matters a ton because it throws you entirely off the trail. It's 95% true and 5% false?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, really? That's what people don't understand about PSYOPs. I thought it was the opposite. Sure. They think that it's 95% false, but you dismiss it out of hand. If it was 95% false, you'd be like, oh, it's Bigfoot. Fuck them. I'm not going to believe that. UFOs are standard deviations more charismatic than any other... If it's the PSYOP...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Right, right, right. Which is why, and I actually, I'm more in the Jacques Vallée, Diana Pasolka line of thinking where I don't think, you know, little green men from Zeta Reticuli is the answer to like what we're seeing in, you know, the airspace. Shout out to Mike Masters. Shout out to Mike Masters.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I love Mike Masters. And he does some really important work.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he's great because he's thinking about this stuff inductively. Most people don't realize they're bringing priors into thinking about UFOs that deal with movies they've seen. Exactly. And the zeitgeist and culture. And so they're not looking at the phenomena...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
ground up first principles and he is and that's why mike masters is amazing and people should definitely follow him yeah but that's what people don't so the psy just i think i think is a really important point um if if there are psyops around a thing it's more likely to be real and then if ufos are real there are going to be psyops around it obviously if you have this like core important truth
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
they're going to be psyops around it. If you're talking about the nature of reality, obviously, but it's ephemeral and hard to detect. And it's like this thing that happens only to certain people. Of course, you're going to co-op that, manipulate it for narratives. And you're gonna have all these competing factions trying to like overlay their narratives on top of the thing.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So these things are, PSYOP or real is positive sum. It's not zero sum. The fact that it's real means there's going to be a PSYOP. The fact that there's a PSYOP probably means there's an element of reality to it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Why would they invest so much manpower at the highest levels? And so that's, I think people don't get that and they snap it to grid. They're like, this is a psyop or this is real. And it's like, there are psyops and it's real. And that makes it really interesting. Yes. And worthy of investigation.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Everybody should think for themselves and you should distrust anybody who's saying it's definitely this.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, it was a brothel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, in a brothel.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, you've seen Oppenheimer, right?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So you remember that Matt Damon's character, Leslie Groves? Yes. Who's running... basically the entire Manhattan Project from like a national security standpoint. And he says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his socialist sympathies. I hired him because of them.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so you hire people when it comes to some of these more secret programs, sometimes if they do have compromise on them, because they're more easily controllable. So that wouldn't necessarily cut against the whole Bob Lazar story.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's an argument for them hiring him. Okay, okay.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. And there's there's even a. So what I was saying in that documentary is John Lear is a CIA cargo pilot, cargo jet pilot or whatever. Right. And the son of Bill Lear, who created the first, you know, business, basically private jet in the in the US. He's known as the autopilot wizard and actually worked with Thomas Townsend Brown. Right. Comes from this like aerospace, like, you know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he, yeah, affiliated with the CIA and says he disaffiliated in 83, but definitely was still flying cargo jets for them, like into the mid 80s at least. So my question is like, you know, we kind of know that if there is a UFO program, it's being run partially by the CIA. And the CIA has a part in it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so if you're the CIA, why do you continue, unless you're extremely dysfunctional and not coordinated, why do you continue to pay this guy who's flying cargo jets for you if he's leaking your most vital, important secrets? Because John Lear put all of the files around Bob Lazar on George Knapp's desk. He broke the story. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So why would you pay a guy who's leaking your, you know, your crown jewel secrets? So that's one question. And then John Lear also had a UFO blog before and was friends with Bob Lazar. And there's some story that Bob Lazar says all this UFO stuff's crazy and wacky and bullshit before he gets hired by Area 51 and S4.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But the question stands, why would you hire Bob Lazar to your top secret UFO reverse engineering program if...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
your good friend or his good friend john lear was a babbling ufo nut who has a ufo blog like you'd obviously find that in a background check right yeah so like there's a lot to me that points to the cia wanting the bob lazar story out again that doesn't mean the details of the bob lazar story are not incredibly interesting and maybe it's 95% true and 5% false.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And maybe this Billy Myers sports model that he worked on was real. I don't know. Maybe Gravity A and Gravity B are high-level frameworks that if you are working on a secret UFO program, you need...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
some initiate you know stem student to start to develop an entry an interest in but you need to protect this from getting into adversary hands so you put it out through these kind of this quacky person who is discreditable in bob lazar and so it's kind of this limited hangout of a person where you can always retract it you can always point to you know say he faked his mit you know educational credentials yeah
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You would think. I don't know. There's something very interesting about Chris Bledsoe's story. It's like, why is, you know, Jim Semivan is very high up at the CIA. Why is he showing up at Chris Bledsoe's place in Fayetteville, North Carolina, when he starts to kind of attract UFOs. He talks to the lady or whatever. You know the whole story.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And you could say, you'd say all this stuff about Bob, you'd say the, the, the, the brothel thing, but maybe there are elements of it that, you know, are, are, are very real. So I think it's this incredibly intriguing story. And what I want to be clear about is I think like the Corbell and George Knapp reporting on it are awesome.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like, I think it's, we should be looking into this stuff, but to me, if you're not thinking about it through a, a meta lens of like, the CIA probably wanted elements of this out. I think you're losing the plot. You know, I think you're going to fall for your, you can't take the thing at face value. You need to understand that it's being pushed for some reason.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I think there's even a John Lear interview where I believe he says a guy named, I think it was like an Admiral McClellan. He says that this guy who was part of like legacy UFO efforts, uh, told him that he needed to leak the Lazar story because he knew that it was discreditable, but that it was mostly true, but also discreditable.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so there's literally a Lear interview, because Lear was clearly kind of unhinged and a little crazy himself, where he's just saying what I'm telling you now, which is that The Lazar story, again, there could be elements of truth, but it was put out because it was discreditable. And I think that's the way a lot of this stuff works. So what was the benefit of putting it out?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Was it to recruit new talent? Oh, tons. It's, it's, yeah. So it's like, if you want to throw the adversary off the trail or like keep things fundamentally protected, but have initiates, you know, develop intrigue and want to be recruited or whatever, like it's
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
the perfect way to do it yeah um so it's like tech protection it's adversary signaling it's recruitment it's increasing the surface area it's if you expect a leak in the future you can manage that leak because you're like conditioning people and like softening the blow for something you expect to leak in the future anyways there's so many reasons to get in front of and do something like that and ben rich who was you know president of of uh lockheed skunk works you know their most secretive you know advanced aerospace aircraft division at the time
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
responsible for, you know, the SR-71 and, you know, U-2. He was complaining at the time how he was basically saying, like, you know, I have to spend tons and tons of money on tech protection because the F-117A, which was there for a stealth fighter, had just crashed in Bakersfield in 1986.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Lear actually established credibility with KLAS, with George Knapp's news station, by giving them information on that F-117A. Oh, wow. Yeah. So there's some interesting ties there. The final thing is John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, had been camping outside of Area 51 for the better part of a decade, taking pictures of all these advanced recon stealth craft. And so the security knew him.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They all knew who he was. So it's like... if he's leaking stuff it's probably for a reason and so i think you know people like ben rich were smart really smart he used to ben rich used to call ufos unfunded opportunities and i think you know he was kind of using um john lear to those ends if that makes sense again i don't know if you have to throw the baby out with the bath water and say that
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We're not, you know, reverse engineering UFOs and sort of, you know, secret compartments of the government. But that's the way I think you need that meta lens to look at it through, if that makes sense.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He's definitely attracted the attention of some very interesting people. You know, we were just talking about Tim Taylor, who I would always mention pseudonymously. He was written about in this great book by Diana Pasolka, religious studies professor, called American Cosmic. And then he was kind of doxxed by Chris Bledsoe on your show, actually.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Jacques Vallée's always, I've had a bunch of conversations, I love that guy, French godfather of UFOs. And he's always thought Bob Lazar was just completely full of shit, which I think there are more elements of truth to it. And there's actually a great movie coming out about Bob Lazar by my buddy Luigi, and it's called Project Gravatar.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I do think it's actually going to corroborate that Lazar probably was at Area 51. Really? Yeah. He's working on it with Lazar? Yeah. He's working on it with Lazar. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's going to be epic. It's going to be really awesome.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But yeah, so in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée says, you know, and what about the liquid that Bob Lazar said he was, you know, meant to drink or whatever, and the memory lapses that it caused. And immediately my mind goes to MKUltra, and I'm like...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And Lazar admits that, and I think he's admitted it to Luigi, and he'll talk about this, that the fact that they made him drink a weird liquid and he'll forget certain things. Something kind of weird going on there. I don't know what it is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Remember that? Oh, no.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's understandable. And I'm not here to bring you back. I'm not an evangelist. I do think... Damn it. I'm sorry. I do think if the question is, is the topic worthy of further investigation? And is there something very interesting at the bottom of all of this? you get to the final room, is there something interesting going on? My answer would be, I think yes.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's crazy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, that's so fast. Is that an Area 51? That's an Area 51.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. I lived in LA for most of my life. And, um, no, I just, whenever we're in the same city, I try to hit him up and visit him. And, um, he's amazing. He's just a very, very deep thinker. And there are clearly a lot of layers to his understanding of the UFO. A lot of layers. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You lost it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, okay. Okay.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. I don't know, man. I mean, I will say what, you know, you know, the concept of Lindy. So it's this idea that the current age of something is, should define its expected survival in the future. So really old things are very durable and are probably more true or right or like, you know, yeah, just valid. So like the Bible, very Lindy. Plato, very Lindy, you know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
modern architecture or, you know, I don't know, the museum of ice cream, not Lindy, you know, like, and so, I would say that really applies to the UFO question. Whatever we are seeing now is probably what we've historically seen forever. And that's what Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Magonia touches on.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You know, Celtic medieval, you know, fairies and leprechauns and angels and demons and, you know, passports and begonias. It's based on the denizens of begonia in medieval France. It's probably what we're seeing today. And they almost pattern match one-to-one in terms of the actual story.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's like somebody comes down, there's missing time involved, there's sometimes implants and physical marks, there's healings, but people also freak out and sometimes they get sick afterward. It's just very common. And so I think... And when you get into the religious stuff, a modern scientist would say, oh, that's crazy or whatever.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But if you treat that as a real phenomenology in the past, if you treat, you know, like Diana Pasolka has in her book, St. Francis of Assisi, you know, experience on Mount Laverne in 13th century Italy. if you treat that as a historical artifact, which I think you should, then I think a lot of these things were just UFOs.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Now where it gets weird is like, then you say, oh, UFOs are just angels and demons. Like so many people say that. And then you just, you give them one more question.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, he says it more than anybody. And, and you know, I'm a fan of Tucker's, but like, then you ask any, you ask Tucker, ask anybody, then you say, what's an angel? What's a demon? They'll have no idea. They'll be like, I don't know. What are you talking about? You know? Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's what I'll say.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, thank you, man. One of your original ones. One of the OG, yeah, yeah. He's hilarious, man. I love Alex Jones. He's so funny, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I loved it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Painting rocks.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, we did this thing in Austin and like InfoWars HQ and he had COVID and he gave me COVID. What? Yeah. So I share some genetics with him. Oh my God. And it was just, I don't know, it was fun. We shot guns and stuff, but the vibe was like a little off. And then my friend Reva, She was like in LA at the time and he was coming into LA and she was like, we got to just make it gonzo weird and funny.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And we got to paint rocks. She bought all these board games and stuff. And it was just genius. Lighten the mood. It was awesome. It was so funny. There it is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Getting drunk and painting rocks. Getting drunk and painting rocks with Alex Jones.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
and he just said that's such an og vice title yeah exactly it felt like very vice it felt like just i feel like your stuff is very vice too like you have a lot of episodes like that too but yeah he's just like oh man he's such he's so fun to spend time he looks so much he looks like he would be such fun to hang out with he's so fun he spent that whole day at my house and i gave him all these books and it was just such a good fun vibe what were you guys drinking
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think tequila. Tequila? Yeah. Yeah. And he went, he was going, he's a, he goes, yeah, I know what he's saying right now. He goes, this is so weird. He goes, uh, I didn't have a sexual desire for my, for my mother.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I look at her, you know, she's so beautiful. And then I'm like, Alex, you are crazy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then he says, you can't send this to anybody. And then he like sends the email or something to his wife or like, I don't know, somebody very close and immediately gets a call from Tim being like- Knowing that he forwarded it. Yeah, like he fucked up, yeah. And so, you know, who knows if that's like a test and like, you know, they're sort of being psyoped or, you know, I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
There's so much. It's survivorship bias, for sure.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
On air. It goes up Osama, specifically. It's wild. That is fucking nuts. I think he's tapped in. It goes back to our conversation on consciousness. I feel like he's like a... a bit of a prophet. He's like one of these people, it's like a, a generically magnified receptor. And like, I think he's like an antenna. He's like an antenna and a lot of bad shit gloms onto him. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He's like Kanye too, where it's like so much bad stuff gloms onto Kanye and then so much good too. And like, I think that's where people like don't understand somebody like him. He can be so wildly wrong when he's wrong. Yeah. But when he's right, it's like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. It's like, it's like automatic writing where like you, like you get the first like page you write is like contrived. It's coming from your like prefrontal cortex, like this intellectual thing. And then boom, you get into the flow and you're on autopilot and something's coming through you and the muses, you're tapping in the muses. Yes. And yeah, I agree. You can't have the filter.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I think, and that's why I get so much wrong too.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's a double-edged sword. You have to be okay with it and you have to be discerning. It's condescending to an audience to say, I'm going to a priori conceal you from this entire thing instead of I'm going to let you think for yourself. And there's a lot that this guy says is completely quacky and wrong. And there's a lot that's super right. And like, but we're not going to like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
you're not gonna be like Bubble Boy and Bubble Girl who they, you know, like siphon you off from like this, like, you know, really important, you know, possible, you know, slivers of information that are really important. Golden nuggets.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I said Hillary Clinton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're talking about Jacques Vallée. I mean, if you get into like, there's like a Gnostic through line in thinking about UFOs. So like you're familiar with Gnosticism.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that. So like, you know, the idea that these are like arcani, you know, protectors or tricksters, protectors of the material world, but that, you know, that there's like a, you know, there's like a demiurge that, you know, runs the material world and that's like a lower God. And then there's like a higher God. And this is not something I would fully subscribe to.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think even Bledsoe thinks that, you know, maybe he was being messed with initially when he sort of entered his life. And even when he was, I think he was giving him a tour of like Kennedy Space Center, you know,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think they're too anti, I think the material world is very special and we can learn all of these amazing things from it. I also think there's higher stuff going on.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So I'd say I'm more like, I don't know, like a neoplatonist or something, but there's definitely some Gnostic thought and through lines in this world. And like, I think that is one lens you can overlay the whole UFO question with, but as to, you know, I don't know. Yeah. He's super into fallen angels and he's interested in demons. And I don't, I can't quite, you know, explain that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And they call it, the three women, they go, it's like a demon, you know? Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, no, some of these things, or even the rumors of Roswell, there's a CIA liaison named Chase Brandon who wrote a book called Crypto's Conundrum, and the alien being that comes out of Roswell, and I think there's some true stuff that comes out of that book.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Again, I would say high probability that Roswell happened, something, there was a crash there, and then lower probability that there was a being, I don't know what, maybe 50-ish percent, but decently high. There's so many townspeople at Roswell, like something happened here, beings came out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Edgar Mitchell, who I know this is going to kind of muddy the waters because he was, you know, an Apollo 14 astronaut who then got really interested in consciousness and aliens, you know, his trip on the way back to the moon, almost this conversion experience. He was from Roswell. And it's like an open secret there that something happened.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then the beings I would rank as lower probability than like the memory metal that Jesse Marcel, this Air Force flight surgeon,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Oh, you're talking about the titanium nickel alloy. So there's a contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute from 1949 that my buddy. The Gerb video. UAP Gerb. Everybody check out his channel. Shout out to Gerb. Amazing researcher. You should have him on. He's awesome. Um, yeah. So there's this titanium and I think it's a, uh, Nick, I don't know. I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. I don't know, but it's, it's titanium nickel alloy. Yes. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, we definitely have that. That was declassified as a material that we have in 1961. Then you have to ask the question, why does Battelle Memorial Institute that runs all of our nuclear stuff have a contract with Wright Airfield where the Roswell materials were? Yeah, nitinol. Nitinol. Nitinol. That's what it was.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yep. So, so that they have a contract to study this stuff between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute in 1949. Again, there's the nuclear connection. And then I think in 61 or 62, it comes out that nitinol is a thing, but why are you keeping it secret for 12 years? And then nitinol is really interesting because it exactly pattern. So Jesse Marcel is this air force flight surgeon.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He comes out later in 1979, I think. saying, you know, actually I was like forced to pose with this, you know, fake material. And, you know, and the project mogul comes out later, the air force says that, you know, it was just a weather balloon or whatever, but actually it was this kind of, you know, memory metal that was like extremely very, uh, durable.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like, you could, you could apply a lot of stress to it. And it would kind of like, uh, it had like shape memory. It would go, it would go back into its original form and look unperturbed and nitinol. Is that you can, that's, we know that that's the case.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
There you go.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And Robert Sarbacher, who was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, is probably working on a lot of this stuff, talks about material, thinly layered materials that, you know, do similar things from that time. Yeah. So there's I think they're there. And then the bodies, you know, rank a little lower probability.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But I've heard from some pretty credible sources that I think there's something there, too. So what do you make about what? And Moment of Contact is, and I think more, by the way, is going to come out about the Virginia case. Moment of Contact is, in some ways, better for Robert.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
What else is going to come out?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I love James Fox and I'm buddies with him and I just know he's kind of actively pursuing that. Okay. So, yeah. So I think I'm really excited to see what happens there. But like I would rank that as higher probability as far as the beings than Roswell because we have witnesses who are alive and we have them on video saying they were right there. It was the three women who like, come on.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Totally. That scene. And then, you know, there's this doctor that reportedly died when the thing was in his hands and this kind of ammonia like smell, which keeps coming up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
there yeah or no no sulfur i'm sorry sulfur sulfur which is the smell of the devil so yes weird yeah then you have to ask yourself the question like yeah how much of that stuff is actually just historical and real like we if something has a religious veneer to it we throw it out as not historical but we have to remember like pre-enlightenment everybody was religious everybody yeah so it's history it's not religion just because something has a religious overlay to it
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
doesn't mean it's inherently not true. You can say a lot of the things in the Bible feel beyond the pale for you to believe or whatever, like the seas parting and the old, whatever. But to say that like somebody definitely didn't have this experience that seemed paranormal, we put this religious overlay over there, I think is extremely close-minded.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We have all these examples now of people experiencing paranormal stuff, and it's just not a religious overlay because that's not the kind of mythology of today's sciences.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, this gets into weird stuff, but I think there's high-powered radar that was developed in the 40s. I think Watson Watt was the first guy that developed radar that was in Britain, and then we started to experiment with more and more high-powered radar, and that...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We had that at White Sands, and I think we had that probably at Wright Airfield, and I think we've had that at Air Force bases across the U.S., and then I think they're attracted to nuclear stuff. And so I think they can be disrupted by some of these high-powered radars. And this is where the conversation kind of gets weird, because I— And they're not aware of our high-powered radar.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think that's possible, man. I mean, there's also— Yeah, I think it's possible. Like— They could not be... Talking about directed energy weapons, is that similar? Yeah, and it's weird. I don't like talking about it because I think it's kind of... Fucked up, to be honest. Like, I don't think that should be, you know, yeah, it's kind of weird, but yeah. How so? What do you mean?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
How can you know if it's a neuralyzer?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, just messing with these things at all. I think they're not kind of interfering with us, and so we shouldn't interfere with them. Oh, totally. You know? But yeah, I think... as far as that being possible, I don't think we know what they are.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think assuming, oh, they traveled the cosmos to get here and they're so advanced or whatever, and then they get messed up due to our, you know, like, how do we have the hubris to think that we could like pop them out of the sky with this stuff? It's like, we don't know what they are and like why they're here.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And there are ways in which you could be extremely advanced and then ways in which you could be super simple. Like AGI is way more advanced, not AGI, any AI model is way more advanced on like vector calculus than like a human. Way more advanced.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
When it comes to like snap intuition and like judgment of like kind of multimodal stuff, like across different domains, humans are way more advanced than AI, right? So this idea that like they are stepwise better than us in like every single way and can't crash, I think is ridiculous. And then it also is predicated on the space alien thing that like, again, we don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like they could just exist in this kind of interior fabric of reality. They could be kind of mostly ignoring us. outside of certain things that light up in our population around consciousness or nuclear, you know, things of that nature. And so, yeah, the development of certain, you know, weapons technology might interfere with them. And I don't think that's crazy to say.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Everybody I know is deep on this topic says that the biological stuff, they're drones. And like the grays and all this.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They're anatomically compiled. Like what is DARPA looking into right now? Like programming biology. So like that's probably what they are too. And if you look at like all the interactions with the alien beings, they're always like, do not fear, do not fear. We won't hurt you. This will take a second.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then they like, you know, there's like an incision and they like put an implant in you and then they go away. And so they are doing a low-level task. They're probably not the beings themselves. They're probably von Neumann replicator envoys to achieve a specific function.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, not at all.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, it's like your little robot avatar.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, we're like, yeah, it's like a donation or a gift. Jacques Vallée speculates that. This is where I have no idea. But I do believe there are crashes. There are just so many. I mean, Leonard Stringfield had 119 cases. There's a guy named Ryan Wood who has 104 cases, most of which are uncorrelated with the Leonard Stringfield cases.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No way.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
uh yeah he he his easy straw man for anything that he thinks is like fake in the ufo world is it's like intel national security deep state whatever and like i i just think that's like super close-minded thinking and like i don't know i don't know it could be in the case of whitley whitley did whitley has a really interesting story where um he was you did a great podcast with him that everybody should check out but there were
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
experiments done on him as a child at Randolph air force base near San Antonio, I believe.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yes. Yeah. That was very strange as well. Yeah. So I don't, I don't know what to make of, yeah. I don't know if you like have like a theory there, but I mean, that's, I think less of an uncommon story than people realize as well. These like gate programs, these gifted and talent, talented student programs, recruiting kids, stranger things, type shit, stranger things. Yeah, exactly.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
it moves around yeah that's what he said he said they tried to take it out and it just moved like yeah which also is a common thing that you hear of these things move on their own metabolism which is that's that's very common with the implant thing so again it points to this kind of biological drone thing have you read so have you read all willie's books or or did you just read uh no i've just read communion so there's a bunch of other stuff oh and i read his book on jesus actually oh did you really okay yeah i read that one too yeah um
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Watching him have sex with an alien.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
right so if you combine that yeah with his stories yeah what i don't what do you i don't know what to make of that well i i do think the inducing of trauma and dissociation is more common than we realize when it comes to these programs that recruit kids and try to find kids with high psi abilities and this is going to sound nuts to the average person who doesn't believe that there's any sort of mind matter interaction or whatever but
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Parapsychology has been studied at elite universities since mid-century Stanford Research Institute, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research, Paralab, Duke, the Ryan Center from 1931 to 1960 was the first one in the U.S. And I think aerospace has known about this for a long time.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And unfortunately, I think we have a dark past, checkered past when it comes to MKUltra, which came out in the church committee in 1975. And I think MKUltra and a lot of the psychic stuff dealt with trying to find kids and induced trauma. And so I don't know, you know. I find, I find Whitley to be pretty, pretty honest in his readout of things, you know, like it, not like a, he's like a good guy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then like, you know, I don't know what to make of any of this stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think, um, and then you can obviously remember things falsely as you're a kid. So I don't know on that, but, I would be lying if I weren't to say that that didn't kind of pattern match to other stories that you hear.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. I just interviewed a psionic asset on my show. Oh, Jake Barber? Not Jake Barber. Oh. But Jake Barber does say, he says, he kind of hints at this. He goes, I was traumatized. He had a really rough childhood. His stepfather didn't. Treat him super well.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he kind of talks about how he was gifted as well, where he was like, you know, he had matched colors up as a kid with major chords and minor chords. And so certain colors would make you happy, like a major chord, certain colors would make you sad, like a minor chord. And to me, like my, like, almost...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
uh coded read on that is like maybe you know he was part of something as a kid or maybe they like they they they looked at him or yeah maybe maybe early on they thought that he had something kind of special going on and that again it's a lot of stuff around gate programs in the us i think are going to come out in the next programs gate g-a-t gifted and talented education oh yeah
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's fascinating. I don't know. Well, I just, you know, we were talking earlier about, I did a piece on this guy, Thomas Townsend Brown, who I think is just a fascinating character.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think a lot of stuff there is going to, Stranger Things style stuff. I think Stranger Things as a show will look a lot more real than people now think it is in a couple years from now. Yeah. And there are people I know deeper than me on this who are the tip of the spear as far as investigative research on this stuff. So I'm not trying to blow up their spot. And yeah, but it's kind of weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's kind of weird. It's really weird. That's putting it light. It's really like, it's messed up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You know, sure. I think we don't know exactly what to do with what we have. I think we have bits and pieces. OK, take this analogy. If you had you gave a thumb drive to a caveman, would they have any idea what to do with it? They don't know information theory. They don't have a computer to plug it into. Just look at this thing. They probably like try to make a fire with it. Right, right, right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Thank you, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So, like, I think that's, you know, maybe you can get some interesting derivative technology, maybe the, you know, the nickel alloy titanium, maybe we've done some interesting stuff with that, you know. Maybe there are elements of the Philip J. Corso, Day After Roswell, you know, narrative that are true, that some of this stuff has made its way into civil side, you know, infrastructure. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Appreciate that. Yeah, well, he's amazing. He's, I think, like a forgotten hero in American history. I think he made all sorts of breakthroughs in the world of gravity. But in general relativity, gravity and time are related. So the kind of subplot of his whole biography, it's a great biography called The Man Who Mastered Gravity by a guy named Paul Shatzkin. Recommend you all read it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
elements of it. I think there's clearly falsities in that book. Like, I don't, I don't think semiconductors required, you know, alien tech to, to, to, you know, their, their patents of transistors that go way back to the thirties. But by and large, I think we're extremely confused and in the stone age on what we've retrieved.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so if you find this stuff and it's like Cold War era, I mean, it's the U S government, the U S the people who know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, yeah, I mean, just like America. Okay.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Let me tell you, I got a stash, Danny. Yeah, yeah. No, I think like the programs around this stuff. I don't think they know exactly what they're working with or what they're doing. And to me, that explains a lot of like you like you need in the era of Cold War secrecy, you know, we're like we're like way ahead of like China and Russia on like retrieving this stuff to begin with.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
then you can keep it super over-compartmentalized, right? And that's fine. It doesn't matter. Then all of a sudden, if the Cold War ends, and then now we're probably back in another Cold War, and it's this multipolar kind of scary thing, and China starts to catch up and eat our lunch on some of this stuff, then all of a sudden you need some civil side eyes.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
A lot of our best and brightest are not working at... Lockheed or Northrop or like any of these places. So you need to like let certain things out. And so that I'm not cynical about, you know, a lot of these whistleblowers. I think they're genuinely wanting to come out. Why they might have some sort of top cover or like why they're not dead to me might be explained by.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
you got to kind of let the cat out of the bag somewhat, if that makes sense, because you need certain eyes on this thing. Cause I don't think we've made a ton of progress on, and on many dimensions, you know, I've heard rumors that we have alien reproduction vehicles or, you know, advanced research vehicles that pattern match the UFOs and we've made them flyable.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then I just, I just don't know. I don't know if that's like, you know, how, how much progress we've actually made. So yeah, And then even if we have made progress, it's really that fundamental question of like, if we're at parity with China or Russia, then this stuff has to come out somewhat, if that makes sense.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then we live in this like information age too, where it's just like impossible to keep a lid on this shit. And I do think there's these snowball effects where somebody displays...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
a tremendous amount of courage, like David Grush, where he pieces together all this stuff and he, you know, goes forward to the inspector, the IC inspector general, gives him a thousand pages and, you know, offers to say, I'll go to skiff with anybody and I'll, you know, show you where the bodies are buried and I can give you the exact addresses of the, you know, facilities and stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he does this in front of Congress. And I think if you're on the program, you're somebody like Jake and you're seeing that, you're like, this guy's really courageous. And it like, it inspires you, you know, it's like the Bannister effect. Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile. And then 10 people broke the four minute mile, like two years after him.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think you see somebody go a little, you know, you've had like moral qualms about what you've been doing already. And you see somebody like, you know, take it this far and you're like, okay, well I know a little bit more and I can probably help with this effort. I'm going to go a little farther.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
The subplot is that he's obsessed with time travel. He talks about time travel constantly with his wife, Josephine, his daughter, Linda. And here's where it gets really weird. Apparently, Tim Taylor told Chris Bledsoe that he was part of a secret time travel group in Nassau in the Bahamas. And the president of that group was Thomas Townsend Brown.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's a huge problem from a national security standpoint. I mean, read the three body problem. And like, that's how it goes down. It's like, you see like a scientist that, you know, you're the CCP or the, you know, the PLA. Yeah. And you see a scientist like working on some really interesting neutrino experiments.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Info transfer is something like really far out, crazy stuff that like you don't have. You just knock on their door. You say we're relocating you. You're working at this base. That's it. That's the way it goes. That's not the way the U.S. The U.S. is like you have these competing factions. You have all this, you know, it's just it's it's way more of this kind of uncoordinated octopus.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So I think the reason, you know, I think a lot of these NDAs that people have signed in the aerospace context to work on this stuff in the past are extremely threatening. And they're, you know, really scary retributions that could occur hypothetically for a lot of these people. And then I do think.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
whatever legacy programs like don't want anything to come back come out are on their back heels and they're like some limited disclosure has to occur and I think they're sort of they're kind of like we don't quite know what to do here and I think my hope is there are people on the inside who are a little more like We need basic ontological truths to come out. It's like nuclear stuff, right?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like you have nuclear physics, you have programs all over the country. It's physics. It's open source. Ontological truths. The idea is that there could be bodies and crafts. Like people need to know this shit. That's crazy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then, you know, anything that, you know, any trade secret that could immediately be weaponized or as low barrier to entry, you know, blow up the world kind of stuff that obviously should be classified. Yeah. And we just need to think about it reasonably through, through, through those lens.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But I do, I do think there are people on the inside who are just dogmatically pro secrecy because it's like this like cargo cult bureaucracy thing. It's just like, they don't, they don't understand how to be any other way or something.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
A breakaway military.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You know, I did find it very interesting that like Matthew Libelsberger, the Green Beret, he blows up a cyber truck in front of the Trump Tower. So it's like this weird message or something symbolic felt kind of symbolic, like some sort of meme warfare thing. And then the email he sends to Sam Shoemate, who goes on Sean Ryan, is all about Chinese gravitic propulsion drones, which I think is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
China is not flying with impunity with, you know, electrogravity propulsion. Like that's game over, right? Like that's like we're in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It's been going on for three months or whatever. Like that's not that. But maybe it's sort of a little bit of a shot across the bow depending on what force was behind that. Because clearly he was dealing with a lot of trauma, PTSD.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Now, I would think that was totally I would dismiss that out of hand. I would be like, that's, you know, that's sort of, you know, madness. But I know from my own research, independent research on Thomas Townsend Brown, he spent a ton of time in Nassau, in the Bahamas. And he was just extremely interested in time travel.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And, you know, I think was like a good guy in his private life. But like what leads somebody who's like that to do that and to send that email? And I did speak to a Green Beret about this and he was like, maybe this is a way to let out some of the gravity stuff that, you know, we have. made breakthroughs with.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So think about it like this, like maybe you're sending a little shot across the bow again to Elon, to Trump, you know, civil side government. And you're saying we've got some harder core shit that you don't have. And again, this is deep conspiracy. I would hold this very kind of loosely low probability, but it goes to the point that, you know, you've made. And then
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I don't know where they are technologically and if they even have the power to sort of flex and do that. But I do think that aerospace has some pretty advanced technology that, you know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They were floating around for longer periods of time than you'd ever expect. Like, you know, hours and hours at a time they'd stay stationary. So they were exhibiting some kind of exotic effects with the kind of winds and stuff, but like, yeah, generally. And then I would make a huge distinction between a lot of people were seeing orbs and like other weird stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then there were like the fixed wing drones that looked like they were meeting FAA regs, which were obviously human. And so I would make a, clear distinction between those two things.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I would also make a distinction between the stuff showing up at nuclear bases, which if you know Robert Hastings' work, that looks more, I don't want to say paranormal because that sounds quacky, but that looks more like of the UFO, the classic UFO variety. You have to classify it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, I agree with that. A lot of it. But you had salium nuclear plant right there and you had stuff showing up there and at Picatinny Arsenal, stuff was showing up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But did you hear the audio of Wright-Patterson's comms links were down? Their power was out for a few hours. That to me is classic Robert Hastings UFOs and nukes. And that was happening around that time. What happened?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he was spending a lot of time with this guy, William Stevenson, who was James Bond's super spy. Or sorry, he was the inspiration for James Bond. He was Winston Churchill's super spy. But he was Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond. He's just fascinating. He's coordinating a lot with Wild Bill Donovan, early OSS.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
At Wright-Patterson, the power was out? Either the power or all comms were down for a little bit, yeah. Can you look this up? Can we find this? Yeah, we should look it up. Let's find out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Wright-Patterson communications outage...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I have a crazy one for you. So in 2010, after Robert Hastings wrote his book, which was 2008, F.E. Warren experienced an outage for- What's F.E. Warren? F.E. Warren is a nuclear base in Wyoming. Oh, okay. And it experienced an outage for, they said, 59 minutes, but Robert Hastings did back channeling and it was 24 hours. What? And President Obama was briefed on this.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
now do you fe warren outage uh atlantic fe warren uh yeah outage atlantic and you'll see that this was reported on by like mainstream media and i don't know if the go to the broadband no the like the atlantic like the you know the the periodical or whatever
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But yeah, I don't want to evangelize. I think in many ways, interest in UFOs is maladaptive and a distraction for a lot of people and doesn't make sense.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Atlantic Magazine.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Failure shuts that third article. Yeah, exactly. So I thought, okay, this is really crazy. So President Obama was briefed on this and Hastings back-channeled with this guy, this retired missile technician named John Mills. And he back-channeled with some missile security officers on site and were like, there was a Tic Tac flying around all over the base and that caused the outage.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I know Malmstrom is, I don't know if F.E. Warren is, maybe.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
but this is what's crazy is you can even see in the article at the top of the article engineering so power is crossed out and then it goes into engineering failure i think it's covering their ass i think they're they don't want it to seem like it was attributed to a ufo or to a tic tac or whatever which again robert hastings back to and by the way i should say i think you know i was wrong about the right pad thing so i don't want to like conflate like this is another thing that i think is very uh uh legit um
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
or a late OSS, you know, early CIA, involved in the formation of the CIA, was working out of the Rockefeller Center in New York and kind of calling a lot of interesting shots as, you know, almost part of like a shadow government, if you will. So he's close with Thomas Townsend Brown. They're in the Bahamas a lot.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They lost comms. Like they couldn't launch the thing if they wanted to.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
it left 50 missiles in the dark the missiles then restarted one of the LCC's and began to normally wow dude dude that's freaky it's really freaky and then you're doing you know Hastings who I think is a very honest actor is doing back channeling with these guys and they're like there's a tic tac flying around and that's what caused the outage and then I think one of them faces kind of career reprisals as a result of this back channel with Hastings and stuff so
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then you have that, it's crossed, power is crossed out and engineering is put up. That's weird. It's like the live editing is shown on the Atlantic article to cover it up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It does show it in Chrome, too. Oh, it does, too? It does, because I put it in my documentary on Hastings. Oh, okay. So anyway, so the right pat thing, that is interesting. I guess it sounds like there were incursions on right pat, and then they ended up shutting the airspace down as a result of that. It wasn't a comms link failure, so that's my bad.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's funny. Exactly. But... That's just goes to the point that like if these things are showing up around sensitive military sites, it points to the nuclear connection and it points to this more generalizable three body problem narrative where they're not just showing up at nuclear sites, they're showing up at advanced science research sites and the most sensitive military sites.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And that was the case with the New Jersey drone. The whole New Jersey drone, the name New Jersey drone is a PSYOP because they weren't just in New Jersey. They were at Lake and Heath. They were in Florida, too. They were in Florida. They were everywhere. And they weren't just drones. The drones were drones.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
The shit you could see that were taken down occasionally, that was blinking red and green because they're meeting FAA regs, obviously drones. Clearly, those were drones. In fact, even the White House statement on the drones The press secretary Trump said, well, Trump says it's very weird, very strange. It's not adversary.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And they're going to the they're they're coming from the garage and we know where the garage is. So that that's interesting. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's very confusing. But then his his white the press secretary. tries to minimize it and say, there's nothing to see here. She says, oh, they were FAA approved. They were research drones. See, that begs the question. If you were given orders by the president who told you, we will clear this up immediately because he was asked this as soon as he was elected. He goes, what happened there?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then you have, you know, Ryan Bledsoe saying that Tim Taylor told his father that he's part of the secret time travel group with Thomas Townsend Brown. Just very, very interesting. And then... You know, we were talking about this before the show. You said, you know, that Tim Taylor told Chris Bledsoe that the Adjustment Bureau was like, you know, his life or whatever.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We have to figure that out. And he like orders somebody to figure it out. So those were your orders. You're saying we have FAA research drones. What were they researching? If it's a prosaic, easy thing to explain away, you say it. How come no one asked that? If it is not, then you don't say it. So I think it points to some more exotic answers. Again, I don't know. I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You have to think probabilistically about all this stuff, and I'd be open to it not being UFOs. But I think there's a lot of evidence. Also, Southport, New Brunswick, Duke Energy Plant, there was UFOs showing up there, too. So drones or UFOs?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Meaning what? What do they look like? They look more like these plasma orb style things. Really? Yeah. Like the Bledsoe orbs? More like the Bledsoe orbs. Like those look very different than these like fixed wing, like they're just different. Okay. That's why the whole thing, it's like not New Jersey and it's not just drafts. Yeah. It's a whole host of stuff.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's, again, you get into these weird kind of questions of like- Were they trying to distract?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So many questions. Yeah. But also in the case in which, it wasn't ours. Say, say in the case in which there were real UFOs, like not, you know, not ours, not prosaically explained UFOs. Yeah. You would probably put some stuff out to research it. You put some of our stuff out. So it's like really murky and it's, it's way more charismatic than,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
and easy and goes viral much quicker to be like, there's a loose nuke on the Eastern seaboard. That will go viral way faster than like, it's actually a whole host of things.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, exactly. So I think that's kind of what happened. And that's why like, If there were psyops around explaining things away, I think that's why it was so charismatic. But then you talk to the nuclear support teams, the emergency teams, NEST or whatever, all of those guys were like, no, there's nothing there. Nobody was being evacuated. So it clearly wasn't that. So it's weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
This is such an important thing you're bringing up because already with the Jake Barber piece, The UFO world has cleaved off and is on another island of reality from... Mainstream media has no idea who Jake Barber is. Unfortunately. It sucks because it's such an important story. But like...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And that's all about like changing one little variable. Like it's like if I were to freeze this room and like, I don't know, move your mic like a little bit. And you get this butterfly effect style multiplicative effect down the line or whatever of like. changing timelines. It's madness. It sounds kind of crazy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Because it's a hard pill to swallow, we're talking about psionics, mind-matter connection, egg-shaped things showing up in our airspace. It's a lot to stomach all at once. And it breaks the brain of these normie legacy people who aren't down these rabbit holes that you and I are down because we've spoken to a lot of people.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so it's this really important ontological question where it's like people are like, we need disclosure, we need disclosure. I'm like, if you walked into a hangar and were shown a UFO, you walked into the UFO. It wouldn't change your life at all. You'd have no idea what you were looking at.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it would beget all sorts of other questions that you'd have that wouldn't be answered upon walking into the UFO or whatever. So it's disclosure isn't some file that's going to come out where it's like this, this, this. These are, you know, facts or whatever. I do. Look, I do think.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
if Trump or Tulsi or like one of these people with like, you know, serious, you know, credentials in the government, like cabinet level credentials, or even from the past cabinet level credentials says there's a there there, I do think that's like a step function up as far as disclosure, like that's progress. But it's going to be this, you're dealing with people's core belief systems.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's going to be this sort of broken, jagged process. It's not going to be this like overnight, like we have disclosure. Like people in our world are, you know, I don't know where you lie, but in a lot of my world or whatever, they're like, we've had disclosure. Like so much has come out outside of 8K, you know, imagery with like the president standing next to a UFO.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's like, we've kind of given a lot.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, of course. Of course. And I understand that skepticism. Yeah. I have a reflexive allergic reaction to the government telling me anything as well. And I would just say, just because you think somebody has an ulterior motive, because a lot of people in the UFO world have a fucking ulterior motive, doesn't mean everything they're saying is wrong.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Maybe they're doing some weird controlled opposition thing. Maybe they're doing something where they want to make money and inherit some equities outside of the government. Maybe they're like, I can give you 50 million reasons why.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
as to why somebody would say some shit about UFOs and, you know, claim to come from an authoritative background that aren't pure, that doesn't mean the facts they're saying are wrong. And I think, you know, a lot of these guys, like, I think that the, the, the, the prima facie stories of a lot of these guys are just fully right. They're just correct. And people just can't stomach them.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It is. It's sci-fi. And I'm not proposing that that's a real thing, but it is fascinating that there are some connections there. And then the final thing, the final connection I made is Townsend Brown's daughter is an amazing woman.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They can't, they're like, it's just breaks their brain. It breaks their priors. And, uh, Yeah, it's tough.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yeah i think it breaks i think they don't know how to process it i think they have no idea how to the the computer it like breaks their computer i mean dude those guys are mind controlled i mean like in those guys want money though they want that's true they do want money but they also you know have certain commercial interests and like are you know uh connected to like various i mean you're seeing what's happening with mike you know mike benz is reporting on all this like usa id like you know
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
back channel shit with like every legacy media.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's wild. It's wild that they're letting it go. But I think we've crossed the Rubicon of sorts, but like, I hope so. We don't know who's making. calls at these studios, but look at like COVID. Like for a year, I mean, even in like, I think 2022, the New York Times published a steel manning of the like zoonotic origin of COVID. It's like, give it up guys. It's so stupid.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like you literally have to, it takes the probabilistic thinking of a child to realize there are wet markets all over China. Why was it the one wet market? Six miles next to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which is studying spike proteins added on to like a basically modification of SARS and how they can create a pandemic. Like, give me a break.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Jon Stewart said it best. Hilarious. And that just gets so simple, right? But they don't. They're, they're overeducated. They've lost their instinct. They don't actually think about any media story critically at all. They're, I hate to say, I come from this world. I went to Columbia and like, I, you know, I know a lot of these people. I love them.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They think I'm crazy now or whatever, but they don't actually do thinking around like, like they hear a story and they, they're, they, ideas are fashion statements and they don't want to look bad at the water cooler, you know, at Condé Nast or whatever. wherever they are. You know, they don't want to like, and they're snarky.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And if you watch, you know, I used to, I interned for, you know, the Daily Show back in the day. And like, I thought they were- Yeah, that's crazy. John Stewart was a total bulwark against neoconservatism back in the day. That was very healthy and like amazing. And now he's just out of, they're out of touch, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
She was in the documentary on the phone call and her name's Linda Brown, but it was Linda Leach for a while. And she has an Amazon review on Tim Taylor's biography. Tim Taylor's biography is called Launch Fever. And I think he wrote 2003, 2004. And in 20...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like, like you have, you know, these correspondents go out to these like MAGA rallies and they just like make fun of them. And like, they're snarky. And look, I was probably guilty of that. I was anti-Trump in 2016. And like, you know, I thought he was kind of crazy. And like- It was the same way.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I was like, these states don't understand, these red states don't understand what's good for them. And then my now belief is the more you go through the liberal arts, like Ivy League education, the more you lose touch with your
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
real instincts about reality and your worldview and like mental models on things are actually like really wrong you're like way off and it's couched in this veneer of sophistry and of sophistication and so it sounds really smart but it's actually really stupid and it's wrong
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They hate him.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, it's either one or the other. He's so polarizing.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, no, it's crazy. And it's... It's an age-old trope in history of this amateur gentleman journeyer who has correct instincts, is outside of the priestly citadel of experts, and then gets proven right. Heinrich Schleiman was this German businessman that was laughed at forever because he thought the ancient city of Troy, you know, in the Peloponnesian War, written about by...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Homer and Thucydides, was actually, you know, that wasn't mythology. Like, that was actually a real place. And then he goes out and he finds it in Anatolia in the 1870s. And we now have tons of corroboration. That's now consensus. Luis Walter Alvarez thought that, you know, an asteroid impact took out the dinosaurs 66 million years ago. And in their case, they actually were extremely credentialed.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Luis Walter Alvarez, the father, was, you know, in the Manhattan Project, very involved with Oppenheimer. And so... But he was this, like, you know, he was out of his domain, right? He was an archaeologist. But he was right, right? And now you have Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson. They're saying the same thing about Younger Dryas Impact.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They're also pointing to mythology just like Heinrich von Schleiman did in the case of Plato and dates around Plato. But they also have tons of archaeological evidence, like great archaeological evidence that there was an airburst from the Torrid meteor stream around that time. Yep. And they're just not being taken seriously. And my money's on them. My money's not on the citadel.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So it's, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's reflexive, bad thinking. And at any, there's a great book by this guy, Sam Arbisman. It's called the half-life of facts. And at any point in history, we were wrong about 50% of the conventional wisdom at the time, or roughly, right? So we're probably wrong about 50% of what we know now.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So if you were going around being this Michael Shermer style or Richard Dawkins style skeptic, Neil deGrasse Tyson, we know everything. You are being ahistorical. You're engaging in bad thinking. Unless you can point to some percentage of current knowledge that you think is wrong, you're like an extension of the Borg.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
12 or 13 or 14, like early, well before Diana Pasolka even pseudonymously published about Tim Taylor under the pseudonym Tyler in American Cosmic in 2018, Linda Leach is writing a review on Launch Fever saying this is, you know, wonderful homage to, you know, the space program or whatever. So clearly there's a connection between Townsend Brown and Tim Taylor, right?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You're the thought police for the conventional wisdom, and you're probably wrong. So, yeah, I like to systematically go through the anomalies because I think that there are tells on what the next scientific paradigms are.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like if you look at black body radiation was discovered by this German guy in the 1860s, the fact that that would create this ultraviolet catastrophe, it was this guy Gustav Kirchhoff. We couldn't understand that until Max Planck and the quantum revolution in the 1900s. The orbit of Mercury wasn't understood in the Newtonian context and we needed general relativity to explain it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So when you see an anomaly like a UFO or like Washington scablands impacts or whatever, you might represent the Younger Dryas thing. You have to systematically look at the anomalies. You can't ignore them because they lead to new science. This is the scientific revolutions 101. Thomas Kuhn wrote about this in the structure of scientific revolutions. The anomalies bring in the new paradigm.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So what I think you're doing and what I love to do is like talk to people on the fringes. And just because you're talking to them doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. You're not plat.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Which is, that's, it's pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So you have this mid-century inventor who I think, I mean, at the very least, like we have an FBI file on Thomas Townsend Brown saying he was the lead radar scientist in the entire Navy. Like this guy's a real guy. You can say he didn't crack anti-gravity. That's fine. I'm like totally open to that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Totally. Totally. And, and I, but I think there's value in it to your point with Flint double where it's like, you need to stress test the really bold grand new ideas and theories. And, uh, Yeah. I think science is a process. It's like, you know, you have skepticism and dogmatism and it's a Scylla and Charybdis and you want to, you want, you know, you want both.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I think having debates like that are really good, but I'm always partial or sympathetic to quote unquote platforming the people with the bold grand ideas where like some of the stuff that might be wrong semantically, but they're directionally correct on like, in like a big way. That's exciting versus these guys that are just defending the modern paradigm.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Cause I don't think that gets us anywhere. Like, yeah, like I agree. Like Darwin is like a locally useful theory. Like, I don't like, I wouldn't, I don't think like Darwin's like fake. Right. It's a theory. And I think gravity is also a theory. Gravity is also a theory. Totally. But I think it's also useful in a scientific, you know, I don't I wouldn't like throw it out at all.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like these things are like extremely useful. Gravity is a great example because there are like many anomalies with it, both on a. macroscopic, you know, level with dark matter and on a microscopic level, you know, with, you know, it's irreconcilable with the other, you know, forces on a quantum level.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And, you know, electrons don't exhibit gravity, you know, in the same way, you know, other, you know, macroscopic objects do. Super wild. Super wild shit. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think I'm always partial to let's like systematically talk to the people with the bold theories and then stress test and come at them and try to, you know, negate any parts of their thinking that are kind of flimsy. Right. But like, you know, really take seriously their ideas, especially when they're driven by
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think the difference between Dibble and Graham Hancock is like, one is driven more by intuition and this like life purpose mission thing. And in our modern day, that's seen as inherently BS or something. Whereas the other person's like, like came up through the system. And like, that's just seen as more valid. And I would say if you're like, You feel like hermetically called to a thing.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You're going to be extremely motivated. You're going to find out all sorts of stuff. And he had, I mean, we would not be talking about Gobekli Tepe if it weren't for Graham Hancock. And so we, the conventional wisdom on like how old civilization is would be the, you know, classic Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilization. So like who's, who's had more of an impact just based on that?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Debates like this are tough. Yeah. Because like. Often it's like like I did like this informal debate with like Michael Schirmer.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I saw that and like he was the guy that he debated Who Michael Schirmer your Michael Schirmer and who no, I it was just me and him Oh, no, but I saw one on your channel with oh, no, no make that was Mick West West and Mary von Rennenkamp And and that that was that was a tough one too where it's just you have the skeptics who I think do you provide this service?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like you have to think probabilistically around that. I have a lot of evidence that he did. But say he didn't do that or whatever. He's like a very real guy, and he's talking about time travel constantly, and then there's this really interesting connection with a modern NASA mission controller. I don't know. I don't understand it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I even came out thinking okay like Mick actually you know, has some interesting debunks in these certain areas. I'm going to like hold certain, some of these videos in lower probability. Like actually one of my takeaways is like video evidence isn't the kind of Archimedes lever for disclosure in general. Like it's not the thing you want to hinge your belief on at all.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Cause like they're all kind of murky and like not great. Although I think maybe on the margins, Merrick won the debate, but, Yeah, I think the classic thing with like skeptic versus pro when it comes to these really kind of hard to answer questions is like the pro people have all these reasons as to like why, you know, it's anomalous.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then the anti people, they just they sit on these kind of like, oh, it's a law of large numbers or it's Occam's razor or it's that, you know, it's like these like rules of thumb that like are just it's like kind of lame and like provocative. And like you're not actually looking at the data like that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And finally, I think Mick West has read UFOs and Nukes by Robert Hastings because it's such an important data set when it comes to UFOs. What did he say about it? He can't say anything. There's nothing he can say. Because it's like, how are you going to go at these guys? You can't go at their credentials. Yeah. You're gonna call them liars. Like they're on the PRP program. It's kind of hard.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So like you end up with these, this like two trains passing in the night in the debates where it's like one side has a data set and the other side just won't agree that the data set is legitimate. They're just like, it's survivorship bias. It's file drawer issues. You're a liar. You're a grifter or whatever, but like, look at the data. Look at the, what do you mean?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like I've met a lot of these guys who've seen this stuff at nuclear sites. And it's like, some of them have maintained Q clearances for years after they've seen this stuff. Like, and then at that point, it's like, I don't know what to tell you. If you're not going to like, believe, you know, if you're not going to like read the book, which is a 580 page book, extremely dry.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's almost boring really because it's so rigorous and good and meticulously done. Like Robert Hastings has like an eidetic memory. And so like, you're either going to read the book and like engage with it or you're not. And if you're not, then like, I don't know what the debate is about.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I find it really interesting. You know, Starlink is just like an optical group of, you know, satellites and it's the biggest, you know, optical, you know, group, but, and then obviously they do RF communications.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it's crazy. Especially Starlink is just blowing it out of the water. I mean, it's everywhere. And they have, I think it's Star Shield is like the dual use kind of, you know, optical or whatever. But so you hear that these things, the UFOs are like picked up by like other sensor modalities. I don't know on Elon. Like, look, in the world in which UFOs exist.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
i would have to think he's gotta know some stuff you know like i just so i don't know if he's playing especially if these rocket guys like tim are fucking dedicating their like their lives to this stuff totally and they have any overlap okay the interesting thing i thought on elon is he kind of tooth he walked back a couple of things recently in the last couple of months somebody said mentioned david grush to him and said like you know maybe we're hiding all the secret tech and he said
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
well, if we are hiding secret tech, I would hope that that would, you know, come out. And so that was a change in tune. That wasn't this like, you know, joke, oh, I'm an alien. Or like, I would know like it's, you know, we don't have high resolution imagery. Like he kind of walked that back in that, in that, you know, interview question. Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then the second thing he said, I think Tucker asked him about UFOs and he said, I think it's deep black American programs. Really? At that point, you're kind of backing yourself into a corner where it's really interesting. Like, what are you saying, man? Are you saying that we have deep black American programs that... look like they're breaking physics.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So like they break conservation momentum, they fly Mach 10 and then they stop on a dime. And then they make right angle turns. And then they go from right above the water to like above 80,000 feet, like David Fravor is saying. And it looks like they're not using chemical combustion.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Because if you are, then you're saying we have physics that's in deep black compartments that well surpass what we're doing with chemical combustion when it comes to Starlink. where you have these, I don't know, 33, 36 Raptor engines, and it's all just mass ejection. And it's all just Newton's laws.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so you're kind of backing yourself into a corner where it's like, we either have secret physics, because you're saying this stuff is real in that interview. You're saying this stuff is real. Or maybe you could hang on that we have some really good radar spoofing. You know, and like, that would be your, you know, or flea or spoofing or whatever. You'd have, you know, some, some version of that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Maybe you could do holograms and optical spoofing. I don't, I don't know what he would say, but it's weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I know I'm with you. It's a, it's a strange, it feels like, you know, just like there's like dark matter in physics. It's like, what's the dark matter there? Like, like, like we can't detect something going on there. And I don't, I don't know what it is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, so he was originally like a red team guy who was, well, he was on the program. What does that mean? That means he was like meant to infiltrate like adversary groups and stuff. And so like he was, you know, it's basically like security for the program. So he was part of the crash retrieval program.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He was pipelined through Air Force Combat Control, which is a special, the Air Force version of special forces. He didn't become Air Force Special Forces. At that point, he became kind of sheep dipped, if you know that term in like Intel circles or whatever, like erased. Like he became like, you know, director of operations for a helicopter company. And, you know, that was basically his title.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But he was working with these, you know, prime contractors. You might be able to guess who they are. He doesn't reveal who they are exactly, but.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, I don't know. You can guess. He didn't say. He said if you tried to guess two, you'd probably get them right on your first try.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Maybe, maybe. And so he's doing retrieval operations for them. And then...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
on behalf of his employer he goes to red team stephen greer stephen greer was the we were just talking about this he was like the go-to guy for like any whistleblower in the government like he was the guy the disclosure project was for the last 20 years he was trying to subvert stephen greer's wisdom and in 2023 um stephen greer held his like disclosure you know uh congress thing or whatever
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
and he had done a version of this two decades prior in 2001 i think and it was with a lot of really impressive amazing whistleblowers and it unfortunately it's kind of couched under the veneer of stephen greer who has you know certain issues yeah personality everybody i mean every single respectable person in the ufo world um they all detest stephen greer
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't know the guy personally, and I've been trying to interview him for a year through various go-betweens, and I've gotten a lot of weird ego responses. I don't know what the deal is. So for anybody watching, I'll put you in touch with him. Oh, thanks, man. Appreciate it. That'd be awesome. I'll trade you for a grush. That's not a fair trade, bro. I need somebody else.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Got to write you.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, it's Mew. It's Mew. No, Mewtwo. No, Mew is even more valuable than Mewtwo. Mewtwo and then Mew is like the baby Mewtwo, I think.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Hook it up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He was, like, the only guy. I mean, that's actually an important thing to correct. He was the only very public-facing guy, and that's why he became who he is now. But I think he took a lot of his stuff from a guy named Bill Hamilton, William Hamilton, who would write about these deep underground military bases, covert operations...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
and there was a lot of actually hard-headed research going on at the time and he kind of shorted up and made it this more public thing it was interesting it's an interesting origin story because i don't quite understand how he went from he was a physician and he just says he was an er doctor he was an er doctor and then he got super into ufos he said during one of his ce5 things um there was a an air force spook or something there and saw the stuff he was doing and told the cia guy the head of the cia who then wanted to go to dinner with him
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it's super interesting. I mean, and again, I believe the Jake Barber account and like it kind of comports with that where it involves like trying to call stuff in, which is so at that time you have this guy, Albert Stubblebine, who also has connections with remote viewing at the time. And John Alexander, who's this longtime kind of UFO guy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
historian, but he also debunks certain things, and he clearly has deep government ties. Also very close to Bledsoe. Also close with Bledsoe. And inserts himself in, like, all sorts of interesting... Like, John Hutchinson was this guy who would claim to, like, have mind-matter effects with, like, these, like, metallic instruments around him in California, and John Alexander shows up there.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
John Alexander's this very interesting figure in UFO World where he just pops in, like, you know, at very opportune times.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Greer claims he offered him $2 billion to participate in the... Legacy UFO or... Oh, I thought the... I thought it was like, come join our UFO program or something. It was... Okay, interesting.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Okay, interesting. Interesting. Well, that... Yeah, it sounds like BS. Sounds like BS. Right. I mean, like, I actually, I think there's an email showing that maybe. But I don't think the offer was real. I mean, Stubblebine's this weird character. He's army counterintel. And he's also on record touting all sorts of other bizarre conspiracies. And he's one of these people you just don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Stubblebine is? Stubblebine is, yeah, yeah. And so it's one of these people you just don't know what to make of him. But they do insert themselves in Greer's life. And then Greer becomes the de facto guy where if you're on the inside and you're working at...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Lockheed or Northrop or you know your CIA contractor or whatever and you see some shit and you want the public to know you go to Greer and so the Disclosure Project archives are to this day probably like among the best UFO databases treasure troves of pretty interesting contemporary information and so I
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater as much as he's a very interesting kind of strange character. Yeah. There's some ego there.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. And there's definitely some messianic, like it feels like he's, you know, so he's the guy who's bringing the day. It's like, come on, dude. It's, it's everybody, you know? Yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
bust one of these guys for blowing the whistle, but bust the whole organization, maybe infiltrate the organization and then become, you know, like the guy from legacy who's feeding info back into legacy UFO programs from like, you know, this important kind of vulnerability threat vector or whatever. Yeah. And so he's at this Congress or whatever.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And, you know, his story is that Michael Herrera, do you know who that is? Yeah. He's a Marine who was in the Philippines and he gets diverted with his unit of, I think like eight or nine people to Indonesia. And Indonesia is a disaster zone. It's due to this earthquake. There's a tsunami warning. And so everybody's evacuating the area and he's Marines. He and his Marines are apprehended for,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I do wonder that as well. And then I wonder how much of it is like human clearance systems versus like, have you ever experienced synchronicities in your life? Oh, all the time. Things popping up, showing up like really cool, interesting, fun way. So maybe there are people that are...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
First, he sees an eight gone, like an octagon shaped craft hovering above the treetops that he says is Vanta black. And it's like he calls it blacker than black and it's above the treetops and he starts to close in on that craft. with his Marines because they're like, what the hell is going on here?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then they get apprehended by this elite paramilitary unit, which in like, I think it was 2009, like they had like bio scanners and like all sorts of gear you would never expect that they like. They were clearly and they were very well trained, probably tier one special forces.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And we're kind of running circles around these Marines saying stuff like it's easy to get lost in the woods or it's easy to get lost in the jungle, you know, like, well, you know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It was completely nondescript, but very advanced, according to Herrera. So private. Maybe, yeah. And they were loading these crates onto this truck. It was like a Ford F-250 or something. And he was like, I don't know what the crates were or whatever. And so Barber... He's at this disclosure event where Herrera is giving this account and Herrera also gets interviewed by Sean Ryan as well.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And Barber is like, I could see the authenticity in Herrera and I, you know, what am I doing here sort of thing. And there are other reasons I guess Barber felt like he was betrayed by his friends. you know, contractor, uh, in the past. And at that moment he goes like, fuck this.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I'm going to like red team, the red team, or I'm going to like red team, you know, the, the, I'm going to, I'm going to talk to these guys earnestly. I'm going to side up with, you know, the Herrera's of the world and try to see if we can get, you know, some of these truths out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so he talks to Herrera and he says that the crates actually had people in them in Indonesia and that these crates were bringing back these psionic assets that are used for the UFO program to attract UFOs. And so it's this crazy story.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't know what age. Again, there are stories that like really match Stranger Things as far as the ages of the people being recruited into the programs. And that gets into some weird, weird shit. And so I don't know what age these people were because they were in these like metallic containers and they were being evacuated from the area.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I mean, even the fact that they're being kept in the metallic containers is weird, right?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's apparently this thing, apparently gay men and left, people were left-handed. Left-handed, yeah. And again, this is something I just, I have no idea if that's how true that is, but that's part of it.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I don't know.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it's, it's, there's another question is like, were they engaging in operations and did they have to evacuate because of the tsunami or were they take, and this is the way Herrera presented on Sean Ryan, which is more nefarious, honestly, where it's like, are you taking advantage of the fact that there's a disaster zone and people could go missing and taking them back with you, which is like...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
weird of course they would be why wouldn't they be well it's a question of like were those people already like willfully signed up for the program they were attracting stuff in the jungle of indonesia that's why the the black craft was there i guess the black craft i think was human so so i take that back but like maybe that was part of the operation but like so yeah they were like engaging in operate field operations there or
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
The operation itself was to round up these people who were lost.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
i want to talk to herrera and i want to get to the bottom of it um he says that on the sean ryan podcast yeah but barber says on my podcast or they were engaging in operations and they had to get the hell out of dodge because the tsunami was coming so barber also seemed very off-put about sean ryan and herrera saying that that they were just going there to exploit the disaster and get those people out he seemed kind of like right he's like i didn't like the sean ryan even used the word human trafficking right right right right right right right right yeah
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the kind of ground truth on that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, that's what they say in the U.S. too. Like, you know, you have Dolce, you know, New Mexico, you have Tacoma, Washington, you have Skinwalker Ranch. All of these are ancient Native American lands. And apparently that's where a lot of this kind of weird stuff shows up.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Skinwalker Ranch, we know is professionally, you know, as part of UFO research efforts investigated as part of OSAP from 2007 to 2012. And so I think both like the people are like, it's, it's, it's just like, you know, if you go to like, you know, most indigenous tribes, you talk about people from the stars, you're not going to freak them out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Like they're going to be kind of familiar with those concepts. I'm like, yeah, we come down during our ceremonies, you know?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
um it's both i think that for the people it's like they have less of like an allergic reaction because they haven't been indoctrinated with this materialist reductionist western paradigm where we even need the idea of disclosure like for them it's like second nature or whatever yes exactly and um and then also the land itself which then you're getting into like trippier territory as to is there a residue on the places themselves that where like more kind of strange stuff goes on like i i would say yes like i think a lot of the stuff that goes on at skinwalker ranch is
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
genuinely not, you know, we need to explain it via science, but it's weird. It's definitely weird. Like, I don't think that, that show, you know, the secrets of skin Walker ranch. Yeah. It might be like, you know, you know, the, the, the, the noise effects probably do it a disservice.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And if you've got that kind of history channel thing, but like, yeah, it's produced, it's produced, but like, I don't think they're lying about a lot of that stuff. And if you, again, if you just investigate the, you know, first principles, like what's happening there, um, It's pretty weird.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. No. And that movie is super important to realize how sophisticated a lot of the psyops can be. And it's like, you can, you know, write scripts and back rooms and like make everything kind of weave together and fit. But like, A could be a data point. B could be a data point. They could look completely uncorrelated, but you're the source of both.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's definitely a thing you have to look out for in this world for sure.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it sounds so woo-woo and wild. And like, you know, I don't know what to say about it. I think that's more how thinking works than the average person realizes. You know, I'm a big fan of the transmission theory of consciousness. When you're daydreaming, you're not actively producing those thoughts, right? It's like you're like a receptacle for the thoughts.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Stress inoculation and dissociation. And yeah, it's like weird. Yeah. And I think people who've had trauma in their past, I guess, are predisposed. All of this is seems a little.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, that might make sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, again, this is not based on firsthand knowledge, so I don't, I don't know. This is all like super, super speculative, but I also like, so I'm in the camp where I believe the summoning stuff is.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
very real and very dangerous and i the i i feel pretty like you know like i think jake barber's story is like pretty beyond reproach actually on that like surface level details of it and then what do you mean by that what do you mean it's beyond like you you think it's super legit i think it's super legit yeah i do um where i
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
get worried about what might be an after effect is this idea of like summoning things into your purview i think that stuff's really real and i think it's dangerous i don't think uh it's for the you know i think you have to have very pure intentions and i think if you show up in certain places and you try to you know do these things i i think that's it's very it's very it could end very badly for for people
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Uh, so, and I think it's the reason you have all this stuff at Skinwalker Ranch where like often it's guys with big egos or whatever. It's like they have this story of this like Hell's Angels chieftain who like, you know, uh, uh, goes there and he's like put into a catatonic state like on the Mesa or whatever. And then he has to go, he's in the hospital for three weeks after that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And, uh, so I think it's, I think it's kind of dangerous to, to do some of this stuff if you're not doing it safely and, and, and, and honestly with it, just pure intentions. What's the danger? I don't, I, you know, have you, uh, you've had Dana Pasolka on, right? Yeah. Okay. So like, you remember the story with St. Francis of Assisi?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So, okay. So he's this, you know, he's actually kind of grows up like kind of this popular guy and, you know, he's kind of, you know, life of the party kind of guy. And then, you know, he becomes a brother and I think he's, you know, in a monastery and he starts to become more religious and he's on Mount Laverne.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He's hiking with his confidant brother, Leo, who like records all the stuff that happens to him. And he basically has an encounter with an angel. And the angel burns him. And basically, you know. Oh, I remember this now. It gives him, you know, what he calls this. He says it's like a vision of Christ. But if you actually go back to the original translation, which Pasalka did, it's a flaming torch.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
What language was it? Do you remember? Hebrew or Greek? No, it must have been Latin. Oh, Latin. Yeah. I think so. Medieval Italy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
13th century, I think. 13th, okay. Yeah, yeah. So like the subplot of the whole thing with St. Francis of Assisi is like he has basically electromagnetic radiation damage and he calls it the stigmata and he says it's a vision of Christ, but like it's probably what you would say is just electromagnetic radiation now and he dies from this stuff. And if you look at the files given to Gary Nolan...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
on people who've had, you know, paranormal, you know, basically encounters with UFOs and with, you know, alien beings, it's often electromagnetic damage and, you know, ultraviolet burns. And, you know, I think some of these truths have been disseminated through fiction. If you watch Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the guy has a sunburn after he sees a UFO.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so I think it's this like, it's an important kind of epistemological question is are we locally producing the content in our minds or are we somehow downloading them from elsewhere? I think that is probably going to be proven by some sort of, you know, scientific model of the future. Right now, electromagnetism
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And I think Steven Spielberg definitely has some spooky sources and he has across the years. And so...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
i think calling these things into your i think there are two things that attract this stuff nuclear and and certain states of consciousness and uh the latter is gonna you know give a lot of people you know an allergic reaction if you're coming from kind of like a uh you know more western materialist reductionist you know uh academia you know that's that's that's where you're coming from but i do believe that's that's part of it and
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
and um calling these things into your purview can be very dangerous allah all the files that nolan looked at and allah what happened to you know saint francis of assisi and i think as with all this stuff there's a left-hand path and there's the right way to do it and the left-hand path is basically a cult stuff it's like trying to summon stuff and yeah you're gonna get burned it's it's like it's a typical every myth whether it's lord of the rings faust prometheus it always ends badly we've seen this movie before
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
If you want the secret knowledge and you don't have the right, you know, pure intention in your heart, you're just going to get burned. Because what you see will be an excavation of what's inside of you. I mean that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You know, the legend, I'm not saying the Ark of the Covenant is real, but this is a good analogy. It's like, you know, the holiest of holies, if you don't go in with a pure heart, it's going to be bad for you. I think if you're dealing with this other world, it's going to, you know, kind of... see you from the inside and out, and it's going to be very bad for you.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's a classic myth, and I think it's not just myth. I think it's very real. I think we live inside of a cave, basically, and that cave is our kind of perceptive epistemology. And if you want to see something that's outside of the cave, you can ask for it, and it can come, and you're going to get hit like a load of bricks if you ask with the wrong intention.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
as we know it, decays and attenuates over space-time, so we don't have a good model for how that transmission might occur, like neutrino information transfer. But increasingly in vogue is this extended electrodynamics model, which NASA and not the DOE, the National Science Foundation and NASA just launched this podcast
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
What you're describing sounds a lot like a psychedelic trip. It's the exact, it's very similar because if you go into a psychedelic trip and you have a lot of ego going in, you're going to get smashed. And it's going to excavate, but it's not necessarily bad for you. It'll excavate what's inside of you often, but it needs to be done in a way that like you can handle.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And honestly, I don't believe in psych. That's why I don't believe in like, I believe in like veterans who are like on their last legs who need to take like Ibogaine or like, of course, like, you know, or like, you know, mushrooms or whatever. But like this, like, oh, let's just like, you know, willy nilly do this recreationally. I don't think that's going to be good at all. The veil.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
No, it's not.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
It's not. It's not. We have the veil for a reason. You don't want to unveil everything all at once. Right. And so I do believe that we have a very limited scope. We only see between 400 and 700 nanometers on the electromagnetic wave spectrum. You know, our decibel range that we hear is limited. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that like there's nothing outside of what we see is ridiculous.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then you have people like Donald Hoffman, cognitive psychologist, showing that what we see are basically like icons of reality. Like they're categorizations of reality. Like you're not seeing electromagnetic wavelengths. You're not seeing the waves themselves. You are seeing this table, right? Because you need to instantly categorize things. So the idea that we are seeing ground reality
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
is crazy. And then the idea that physics is the end of history is also crazy. Like our consciousness definitely plays a part in what we're seeing. You say you've experienced synchronicities all the time. You're basically admitting that your personal epistemology is out of step with the Western materialist dogma. You're admitting that and saying that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And maybe you're saying, I don't know, it could be like the pattern matching of my mind or whatever. But if you like get down to it with most people, they're like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yeah a bunch of happened to me that's like beyond chance and probability and there's probably something with your consciousness that affects the material world or whatever so i think it's not beyond the pale to say like if you want to experience something paranormal you probably will if you like you know do certain things and doing that um in a reckless way is very bad um and doing that honestly it's the whole issue i think with the ufo thing like
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
the whole context of this conversation is around weaponization of this stuff yeah and in certain cases i i always like my rallying cry is like it's actually bad for national security because like i want the powers that be to let more out so that's like i'll say that right like it's bad for national security if the left hand isn't talking to the right hand and like russia and china have their own ufo programs and they're like beating us but my motivation is not weaponizing these things like i just i kind of want to like poke the bear a little so they like let more out
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
because they're holding onto a lot of stuff. But the whole, the fact that all this whole conversation is couched in like, how can we build weapons out of the, like this like meta material that like is like manna from heaven is so perverse and fucked. And so like my whole goal, like to the extent that I ever do anything in a capitalist context with the UFOs stuff, it's,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I want civil side infrastructure updates in our cities to make our lives better. And I want more meaning in the world, in people's individual lives. And if I can do that and have top cover from national security people who are like, yeah, if you find something dual use, we'll take it to the back room and work on it. Fine.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I'm cool with protecting the free world and making sure we're ahead of China and Russia. Yeah. The whole idea that people's impetus into this topic, the fact that they're into it is just like, let's weaponize this immediately is so fucked. You don't know what you're dealing with. It probably is angels and demons.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like how put off and all these interesting like kind of figures in UFO world, but also with some pretty impressive bona fides just in science as well. You got a former skunk works guy, you know, some Navy scientists.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
it's death yeah it's so yeah i didn't even know that's that's crazy yeah that's brilliant i mean in in annie jacobson's pentagon brain book all about the history of darpa wow dude one of the most insane books yeah that's an amazing book that's one of my favorite books she's amazing what like an epic chronicler of just love her man yeah and her voice god She has a great voice.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
She's like the best podcast voice. She has the best voice.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Well, I think, I mean, again, this requires a predisposition to some pretty trippy kind of ontological worldviews, but I think the veil has dropped. I think we're seeing more of this stuff now, and it might be because we're not being super responsible with our world. We live in this multipolar nuclear world, and you're right, to the extent we have access to anything...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
off the books and, you know, of celestial origin or whatever, we're weaponizing it immediately. And, you know, things are just not good on a global scale right now.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So I think what we might be seeing is kind of intervention, a la the three body problem or UFOs and nukes with Robert Hastings, where if you talk to any of these guys, any of the ICBM security personnel, any of these people who've, you know, firsthand witnesses, their first instinct is always, they're trying to tell us to like,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
stop our way, you know, to like, you know, hang back and like not destroy ourselves.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So, and then you can get into the Mike Masters things where it's like, you know, is it some future version of humanity that is coming back in time, trying to protect, sustain the existence of the human timeline because like, we're going to blow ourselves up and who would care more than the future version of ourselves? It's like in Back to the Future where it's like, you know,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Marty goes back in time because he wants his parents to be together.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. If you were to ask any conventional biologist, like somebody who doesn't believe in aliens, what will humanity look like in a few thousand years? You'd say, okay, humans are getting domesticated. So we're losing the melanin in our skin. So it's getting kind of more pale. Our brains are becoming selected for because of more white collar work. So cranial size gets much bigger.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Nose and ears, they don't matter so much because, you know, we're not hunter gathering. Right. We, yes, there is pedomorphosis. There's neoteny. We retain the larval features like of like young people in our, you know, basically like your kids are going to look like what your ancestors look like in the future. Right. And we're becoming domesticated.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
A dog is to a wolf what we will look like, you know, in the future is to us. Right. And so I think, yeah. And then if you look at like all the databases around UFO abductions. Over 50%, in almost all cases, are hominid creatures. And then you think the likelihood of evolutionary convergence on Zeta Reticuli, Proxima Centauri, of them looking like hominid beings.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You have 8 million species on Earth and you have like 20 upright hominid, you know, and then you have like one like us or whatever. So you're saying like a gray looks exactly like us? It doesn't make any sense.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, no, it's the, exactly. It's the likelihood. And if you're seeing a thing in your neighborhood, it's more likely to be related. It's think about like North Sentinel Island is off the coast of India and they never get visited occasionally by missionaries and they'll kill the missionaries. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And they probably think when people visit them, like, you know, you're just some white dude and you like show up there, they'd be like, you're an alien.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
because they don't know the rest of the world exists. But if you see a thing in your neighborhood and it looks like you, it's probably an extension of you. It's probably related to you. That's just kind of Occam's razor. So, and then we have 20 billion, you know, Earth-like planets in the, you know, Milky Way galaxy. So people love to say that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But then you have over a trillion non-Earth-like planets. So again, the likelihood that you are seeing a thing in your neighborhood that looks like you, doesn't only look like you, looks like what you probably are going to look like in a certain amount of time from a conventional evolutionary biology perspective. I love the Mike Masters thesis as a result of that.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Where I think Mike, where I would disagree with him or where I think he might fall slightly short and he would probably admit this because again, he's done amazing foundational work is like, I don't know if it's us from the future.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think we might be stuck in a time bound reality where we're subject to Zeno's arrow of time, where we are kind of indelibly permanently moving forward in Zeno's arrow of time. And they have some ability to do trans temporal stuff where they can time travel.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so you get into all, all these weird questions of like, if time travel is future is possible at any point in the future, which he's saying it is right with his book, because they're saying they're coming back in time, they wouldn't be able to go back.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's right. Then it's always been inherently available. If time travel is available at any point in the future, it's always been available inherently. Right.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yes, that's right. And so then you get into these questions of like, you have the angels and demons ontology and you have the human future time travel to ontology. I think a really valid use of like a think tank would be like, how do those two things comport? Are these ascended humans that have trans-temporal capabilities, time travel capabilities,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
um that are like the next step on the evolutionary chain and but like saying future is kind of a misnomer because in their paradigm time doesn't even exist the way it exists in ours right so i don't know you get into all sorts of like crazy rabbit holes but what i love about that book is it's just
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
it's very scientific goes through cases and it goes through data to the extent we have data unfortunately the data is kind of scant but it goes through the data and it just makes a very compelling ground up argument for why time travel is involved and why they're related to humans and not just you know the time dilation paradox thing is really interesting too like how he said i love the part where he's talking about like if we sent some um
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's an interesting paradox, too. Oh, it's a fascinating one. And you have the whole Planet of the Apes thing. Yeah, it's like... Time itself is very weird. In general relativity, you have time dilation, which we just described, the twin paradox, all that stuff. And then in quantum stuff, I don't think we quite understand time.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We take it as like this formal axiom in Schrodinger's equation, but it's actually kind of really weird. And like time and gravity are coupled in general relativity. The closer you get to a gravitational source, time slows. And in quantum stuff, we can't figure out gravity.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That's this big field of quantum gravity, which has turned into string theory, which we've never been able to solve for gravity. We've never been able to fully figure that out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
That was fun, man.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. Eric makes that proposition. He goes, I don't know. He goes, if you were trying to limit the physics, string theory would be a pretty good way to do it, which that's gets beyond me. Okay. It's like, is string theory, this like padded walls, 2d version of physics.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
the real physics that they have in the back room and it's just this like initiation recruitment thing but it's like less dangerous i don't know if you can do that deliberately that seems like maybe like beyond human coordination abilities that it gets beyond my physics knowledge and eric might be able to speak to that more in a more sophisticated way as to like why that might even be possible but
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Less than 100 years.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
We went from muskets to nukes. And if you take the three body problem seriously, where you have the Fermi Paradox,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it's like these tri-Solarian aliens that we've been in contact with. It takes place actually originally in the Cultural Revolution in China. And you have all these scientists getting kind of stamped out or whatever. And then you have modern scientists that are making contact with aliens.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And often it's in these extremely advanced science projects like particle accelerators at places like CERN. And they're getting all sorts of interesting comms from the aliens. And the tri-Solarian aliens are in touch with the government. And they're like, you cannot tell the populace that we are in touch with you because it's going to tip off mass hysteria.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So we have to slowly infiltrate ourselves. Which is, by the way, very similar to Arthur C. Clarke's amazing book, Childhood's End. And I think this idea that an alien civilization is slowly incepting itself is... very popular and actually probably a good answer to the, you know, Fermi paradox. If you were incredibly sophisticated, you wouldn't show up as this foreign invader hominid.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
You would just incept yourself. You'd create hybrids. You'd do genetic experiments. You'd do all sorts of stuff. So... What were we just talking about? Why did I bring up the three body problem? Do you remember?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, to nukes. So like if you take the three body problem, like in the three body problem, there's this dark forest analogy. And it's like the universe could be teeming with life and it could be adaptive from the perspective of an alien race to not show themselves to you because they're worried that you're going to kill them or like going to harm them.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And why would they care until you start creating nukes or like certain things that like, maybe you reach a certain level of consciousness. Maybe you create a nuke. Maybe it's high energy physics and maybe it's certain people reaching certain levels of consciousness.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then all of a sudden they make themselves known where it's like, you are living, you are living in this time bound simulation and you're poking at the edges of the simulation. You can do it with consciousness. You do with high energy physics. And, you know, here we are like trying to like, you know, guard,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
guard the simulation and like make sure you're not going to like mess anything up in a big way. And so I think that's actually a very good answer to the Fermi paradox. It's like, why don't they show themselves? Well, it's actually like probably evolutionarily adaptive for them to not show themselves. It like makes more sense that they wouldn't in many ways.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on Eric's side. Like, I think clearly it doesn't work. And it doesn't take Eric or any physicist. You or me can say it doesn't work. Name me a piece of technology that's come from string theory. Can't name anything, unfortunately. Name me something that's come from quantum field theory, like semiconductors, like a third of our economy, quantum field theory. So, yeah.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So it's like one thing is like this, you're lost in like science is the map and not the territory in my belief. So like my metaphysical worldview is more like Plato. Like it's like there's something beyond us that's true. It exists in the world of like forms and ideas. But like when it comes to science, I'm more kind of Aristotelian in that what is useful is true.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And the quantum stuff is eminently useful. If you want the most accurate sensor, it's a quantum sensor. If you want the best computer, eventually it'll be a quantum computer. Quantum stuff just seems to work incredibly well, especially at lower scale, subatomic scales. And it's really useful from an engineering standpoint. And...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
String theory is just basically trying to force fit what describes our kind of cosmological worldviews with general relativity. And quantum field theory force fit them with math. And so you have a map here that's not, the map is not the territory. So you have stuff that you can do cool things with with quantum field theory. You have some stuff you can do cool things with with general relativity.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Neither are descriptors of the underlying reality. So the maps are gonna be a little jagged and off. String theory is like you have these jagged off maps that aren't perfect and you are forcing them together with math. Like it doesn't take a genius like you or I could look at that and be like, that's the wrong approach. Yeah, it's just the wrong approach.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
So that's the way I look at it from like a more high level perspective as to like, you know, whether it's some limited hangout. There are all these really interesting things I've uncovered with, so the people that funded quantum gravity were, you know, it was like initially kind of established at this Chapel Hill Conference at University of North Carolina in 1957.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And it was this guy, Agnew Bonson, and he was obsessed with gravity.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Bryce DeWitt. Yeah, Institute of Field Physics was Bonson's outfit, and Bryce DeWitt was his chief theoretical physicist. And he's basically convening the top physicists in the world at the time. I don't think anybody would argue with this, like John Wheeler, Peter Bergman, you know, Freeman Dyson, like these legends.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, it totally muddies the water and it's a weird dynamic. And I think when you have a topic that's kind of pointing at the sacred, you know, it might be the tip of the iceberg. It's not the rest of the iceberg. It's just an unidentified flying object is not necessarily what you're going for.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And they're all trying to figure out why gravity breaks down, you know, at subatomic scale. So like why gravity doesn't work with quantum stuff. And that establishes the field of quantum gravity from which you could say string theory is like a later offshoot, right? This is the crazy part. Bonson in the back room is funding Townsend Brown.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And in my opinion, I've uncovered all sorts of stuff as to why Townsend Brown experimentally is figuring out real physics and is using these capacitors with high voltage experimentation in a way that ostensibly seems to create some sort of connection between electromagnetism and gravity, which again, if you were to talk to any conventional physicist, they'd be like, if you can experimentally do that, that is crazy.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
leads to all sorts of amazing possibilities, propulsion, comms, whatever. And so I think Bonson was like funding some like, you know, back of the house research with this guy, Townsend Brown, who was, according to a couple of books, this guy, Paul LaViolette, he was maybe even at the Chapel Hill Conference. And the thing about Brown is he was never an amazing theoretician.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
He was more of an experimentalist. He was more of a Tesla type. And he actually wasn't like traditionally super credentialed. but he had theories around what he was doing. And I think he was kind of breaking physics. And there are all these kind of credible witnesses who saw what he was doing and were freaked out. Edward Teller was one of those witnesses who freaked out.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Curtis LeMay witnessed his experiments. And so, you know, I think he was doing some really interesting off the book stuff. And then meanwhile, academic physics is being sent into a cul-de-sac, being sent into a dead end. Is that incidental and emergent? I don't know. I don't know how conspiratorial to be about that, but it's fascinating.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, he's awesome.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah. So, yes. So, okay. And then here's the interesting string theory connection. Lewis Witten was the representative of that conference from RIAS, which is Martin Corporation's anti-gravity research group. And so Martin Corporation is pre-Lockheed merger. So it's the original Lockheed Martin has like an anti-gravity research group. Lewis Witten is is researching gravity.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And thank you, Manscaped, for sponsoring the show. And they're all speaking about extended electrodynamics, and this is basically a model that...
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he even says this, there's a video online where he says, I was meant to research gravity and Wright Field told me to research gravity. The whole conference is sponsored by Wright Airfield. That's crazy. Which is the epicenter of all UFO lore. Fuck. Bryce DeWitt almost worked at RIAS as well. And then he ended up at the Institute of Field Physics.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
There are all these interesting aerospace connections. John, there was so much, it was so bound up in aerospace that John Wheeler would complain at like the, how like tied to aerospace and anti-gravity. Like he kept being like, you know, all this talk of anti-gravity, it's just too much. Like we have to figure this out in like a serious academic way.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But that just shows you the prevailing ethos of, you know, the place itself. And so it's really fascinating. Wright Field had its own, this guy named Josh Goldberg, who is a PhD from Syracuse, and they were systematically studying antigravity. Antigravity in the 50s was, you know, Lewis Witten even says this, in the wind, meaning it was everywhere.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
But it also, the other meaning of in the wind, it's a spy term that could mean in the dark. And so it's really interesting. There could be some double meaning there. So the tie between quantum gravity and string theory is Lewis Witten's son is a guy named Ed Witten. Ed Witten is the number one string theorist in the world, bar none.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Involves a scalar field so unlike classical electrodynamics You don't get the attenuation over space-time so you can have you can have it basically in classical electrodynamics You just have one electromagnetic wave a transverse hertzian wave so you have a magnetic field An electric field and wave propagation and all three are perpendicular to one another and so because of that you get this attenuation get electrons pairing off you know and you know you get this decay function on the signal and
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Michael Jordan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
Yeah, exactly. Like alien level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So that's Ed Witten. So that's the son of the guy studying anti-gravity with Martin Corporation and establishing quantum gravity, which is this cul-de-sac. So like your son is like the king of the cul-de-sac.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And maybe there's some interesting updates going on in the back of the house with guys like Townsend Brown, who also has a work history at Martin Corporation. He joined Martin Corporation in 1943 or two or three, right when Skunk Works starts, the same year Skunk Works starts. So some interesting, weird connections there. A lot of smoke. I don't have fire.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I think 99 years old or something. It's like super old. And I have a friend who has corresponded over email with him. And as soon as he said, hey, I want to get into the anti-gravity stuff, the line went dark. And he stopped responding to emails. What do you think of that?
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
I make of it that we've made updates in the world of gravity that are off the books and not any, you don't even need me to say this. Like, like the national science foundation's now coming out with these podcasts talking about extended electrodynamics and literally scientific frameworks that if I were to say this a year ago to you, you'd be like, that's quacky. That doesn't make any sense.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And like the, this was relegated to like zero point energy conferences in the Southwest, like that, you know, some crystal healer would tell you about extended electrodynamics and you'd be like, okay.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yeah go again but it's being vindicated as real and uh electrogravitics being vindicated a lot of people who are high up have kind of like hey you're kind of on to things some things with this stuff and um i i just interviewed carl nell who's the army representative for the uap task force worked alongside grush extremely smart was the deputy cto of northrop grumman part of what the argument i made in my townsend brown documentary is that some of this
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
gravity, you know, interesting gravity stuff made it into the B2 Stealth Bomber. Some of Brown's work.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
yes somehow because it looks like the the stealth bombers they look like they defy gravity because they don't look built like they're like unless they have some super powerful jet engines the the uh which they do but most legendary air airspace journalist in uh the uk was a guy named bill gunston and he's writing a survey level overview of all aero tech you know aero engine technology um since world war ii
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And he gets to the B-2 stealth bomber and he says, you know, I do not wish to reside in the Tower of London. So I will refrain from talking about clever wings with leading edges charged to millions of volts positive with trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative. He's talking about the B-2 stealth bomber.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And, um, aerospace, uh, uh, or aviation week, aviation week, Bill Scott, another, you know, amazing, uh, aviation journalist. He says, you know, when, when the B2 gets revealed, you know, uh, early nineties, he's like the B2 surfs its own wave and uses a Byfield Brown effect. Some people even think B2 is, stands for Byfield Brown. Wow.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And so the majority owner of Northrop, where the BTU came from, Northrop Grumman. So this is pre-merger with Grumman. The majority investor is a guy named Floyd Odlum. He's a lawyer. He's a financier for Narrow Space. He's funding Brown's research in Santa Monica. And the research fails, quote unquote, in 67. Then in 68, three months later, because the end of 67, early 68,
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
They publish a paper, Northrop, saying we are looking into electro aerodynamics. And it's this paper that was archived in the American Institute of Astronautics and Aeronautics, or Aeronautics and Astronautics. And that paper just goes missing. And so they retract that paper and say, oh, there's nothing to see here or whatever.
Danny Jones Podcast
#287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels
And then a couple of decades later, the B-2 stealth bomber gets revealed. So it's like, you tell me, like, I think there's a there there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I also think there's a tide shift where if you look at spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability. Like everything from way back in the day, from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps. My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever. And so it is this interesting thing where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with nuclear bombs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, Maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT. Go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this. We're going to parasitize and clamp down on human abilities.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You're like, how can it be built? He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think on a materialist dimension, I would agree with you. And that's part of kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary. Because I think if you just take...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
you know the Western world and extrapolate that forward things don't look at or just the world in general we have live in a multi-polar nuclear world look at what's going on in Israel you know yeah China is you know systematically stealing our IP and and and militarize me you know they could take Taiwan at any moment You know, we just have no idea when that's going to happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's CCP is a total black box. Putin and Xi have probably never been closer. And yeah, it's really free. So I think if you extrapolate that on a go, you know, forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., like none of these things look very good. But I think now is the time where you get really outside the Overton window thinking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You throw these sort of Hail Marys, and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities. You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that. Yeah. Or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't know. But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, these are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which I think uses like SHA-256 encryption. If you get quantum error correction, that's gone too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. Yeah, and then it's kind of the apocalypse or something. Because at that point... if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just basic subsistence, basic shelter. You're probably playing some status games and some larger socioeconomic construct or whatever, food, basic well-being.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some AGI that starts trading And, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about renaissance technologies on your show, which we can get into. But, like, you know, renaissance technologies have made, like, $100 billion or something since, like, you know, 1988.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Like, what if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market and, like, all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into, like, you know, single entities? Or, like, one of these, like, one of the FANG stocks, like, one of these, like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI, right? you end up with a really weird society.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive. I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique. Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. You know, he wrote, obviously, The Communist Manifesto in 1848. In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called, you know, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think he got so much wrong about human nature. But I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution. You know, that the state should own all the means of production and, you know, somehow like, you know, conflict would go away. He doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's basically talking about in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially. Right. So that you can mate. Right. And so it forces us back into that construct. But if you get some...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
crazy asymmetric lopsided transfer of wealth, or you get the quantum error correction, or any of these things that dissolve that construct. On the one hand, humans, they start to care about the things that actually make them special. So they're self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, all these beautiful things can come out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up, you were super into Zachariah Sitchin, right? Yes. And then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and you were like, but there's this site, Sitchin is wrong, written by a guy named Michael Heiser. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. Well, this is this is the reason that I think we're going to see. I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open. And you've had, you know, Marc Andreessen on your podcast.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's an absolute honor. And I love your show so much. I'm a super fan. So this is surreal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something, and they were like, we're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics. And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and you know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since. That's insane. There is black science, in my opinion. And it's I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI, because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy nilly, I mean, it just runs amok. And then and then what happened?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Like, you probably need some like really impressive panel to be thinking. If OpenAI figures out some like new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever. Yeah. So maybe you've come full circle. I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. It's going to be like that Pixar movie WALL-E or like we're going to be like in the fetal position hooked up to the Borg or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Like the Grey. Well, that's a crazy. So there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University. His name is Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan. She talks about how sperm count is 59% per capita of what it was in 1973. Insane. Testosterone's fallen off a cliff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
We are being a dog is to a wolf what we are to what a gray alien looks like. Right. They lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated. So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions. Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time. And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test. Because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point, and it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid-90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like... little bacterial fossils on it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's explaining why. Aren't they using ML? They're using AI now to translate Sumerians. So it's definitely not... But that goes... The the the the kind of burden of proof is on sitchin in this case, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this, this is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD, he's worked at Sandia National Labs, he's worked at Lawrence Livermore, like incredibly smart guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He talks about the existence of Xenon-129 and Argon-40, these specific nuclear isotopes, existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMoneagle, who's remote viewer number one. You've had Hal Puthoff on who ran the Stargate program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Joseph McMoneagle is the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid like creatures. But there were like 12 to 14 feet tall walking around pyramidal structures. I don't know. Very strange.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then you get into like crazier territory. You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars. And like, I don't know how much weight to put in that. Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps, though. I've watched tons. Yeah, tons. But I think the people that say like zero percent there was life on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there are water caverns all over. That is a fact.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point. You know, I'm not saying you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly real. On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea. But that would point to maybe like I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So like you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, right? We live in this sort of observer-dependent universe. He talks about the anthropic principle, where Planck's constant were slightly different. The Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Another example is hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over. You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But it sort of goes against like, you know The others the debunkers to like it's like nobody knows and I don't know I don't know if there was anything to the sitchins the sitchins stuff is crazy It's like we can rehash it for the audience. There's a planet Nibiru, right? It's like outside the kyber belt and They needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are the little flaming candle and, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we are extremely lucky. Or that could point to the Earth being simulated. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so then maybe Terrence Howard is right. If the Earth is simulated, there are probably A-B tests going on, just like in computer science. And then there's the moon. And the moon's weird, too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's 1 400th the size of the sun, and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I believe it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect for a moon. And it's huge. It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period, and it's stabilizing the climate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You have the Zulu cultures talking about this. And then this is the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow. And it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense actually. Or, sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's obviously, you know, on Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon. They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell. This is all, you can look at all this stuff. It's super weird.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
it's so crazy it is crazy and then this is you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down lowest probability craziest thing is ingo swan who is another remote viewer in the stargate program he wrote a book called penetration where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit like this kind of men in black style guy named axelrod and he is told to remote view the moon
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he remote views an alien base on the moon. And he says that there and he gets it. The whole thing goes crazy. I mean, the book is insane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman that, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing. So.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So they like came here and they like seeded help seed civilization.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolff? Is that what it was? He was taken to, this is all his claims, and he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this. But he said that there was, like, in, like, Langley, you know, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on. He was taken to some, like, it was, like, inside a mountain complex, which we definitely, yeah, Carl Wolf, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. Did you see, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein? I didn't see that. Okay. They were on Piers Morgan together, right? Exactly. How'd that go? Oh, man. It was a train wreck. Really? I mean, it was like they just duked it out. I mean, I came out, I mean, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Totally and in his case he says that he was in this, you know Mountain base or whatever where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know Collegial UN style space program or whatever so that to me might be a little you know beyond the pale and I'm glad you made that point because that is ufology 101 and I've heard you
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit. We're going to stigmatize it. And it it kind of.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
works because it like it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs it widens the surface area it both conditions the populace but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke and so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like interpretation and you were just taking it accepting it you know imbibing it wholeheartedly like prima facie I think you are in trouble yeah
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. So, like, yeah. That's a... I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4 Area 51. And there's going to be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi on this called Project Gravitar. And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there. And a lot in his story checks. But...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video, that I think a lot of this story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story, you can't just take it at face value. Because John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse Guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Which is a wild book. And so he's crazy. He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon? He talks about bases on the moon. Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon. Oh boy. And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family. His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He created the first business, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown. And so I think Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot, or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But I came out even more like just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll, He was like, I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it. He even said there are no Lagrangians in it. And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper. So, like, he just didn't read the paper. And he was very smug.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There is a video of him saying, I was told I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever. And I was I was told about, you know, to actually like he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth. I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you, Jamie says, knew that I ran my mouth. So that's why we basically we got Bob a job or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And we knew that part of this stuff would leak. And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever. And he was this useful idiot to sort of get get it out. And I think there are what for what purpose? Recruiting. You give people high level.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He started off the interview being like, I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair or whatever. And it's like, come on, dude. Like, give the guy a chance. Yeah. Like the whole Douglas Murray thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world. He's not saying it didn't happen, right? He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT. They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They knew that he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously. They knew that they had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer. In spite of his communist sympathies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I hired him because of them. So you have a top-secret program You want compromise on people you want to be able to blackmail them? And so I think you know that should be taken at face value in my opinion and the reason
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51, S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're gonna do a basic background check. And Lear is gonna come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he was flying CIA cargo jets. And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit. George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS. And actually disaffiliated much later into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets? And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade. Like the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like I would go with John Lear and he would show me around or whatever. And they would like let him through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S. And so I think that helped establish sort of credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur? I don't know. There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy, who's like as deep and spooky as it gets. I met him. No way. He was on Fear Factor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
No way. Yeah. G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor? Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And John Lear. That is the most gonzo thing I've ever... G. Gordon Liddy was... How does he... Did you have a quota of spooks or something? It was celebrity fear factor. Celebrity fear factor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like if you have to do these ad hominem weird meta points, why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're insecure about something. How long did this debate last? It was like an hour.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Crazy. Yeah. That is unbelievable. What an art. What an amazing. I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I feel people like that love fucking around. They love getting a rise out of people. If he is a sociopath, he loves going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get. I can't psychoanalyze.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't know. You know, so element 115, elements are just differentiated by the number of protons. So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered. I think they don't have a stable version of Muscovium, which is element 115. And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller. I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
At the end, he goes, I've understood a tenth of what's going on in this conversation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
EG&G came from Doc Edgerton, who was, you know, MIT faculty. And that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller was EG&G. So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just that lens. You need to apply that lens. Right. The limited hangout lens. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's a trillion dollar question. Is this tech protect? This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene and you had. When did stealth technology first get implemented? It was the F-117 was the first stealth craft. That was the early 80s. And you had actually this guy named Pyotr Ufimtsev, who is this. What a name. Yes. A great name.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated. There's this kind of fight between, not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director. Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin. And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think he might have been exaggerating to be honest, but he loves it He loves the drama and that's his whole thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so Ben Rich was very pro-stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality. And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross sections on planes. And that's where the F-117 came. And, you know, the B-2 was sort of the response to that. And it sort of took off in the 80s.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he was extremely scared about tech protection at the time. And he was hypervigilant. And he would actively complain about it. And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. What? Pretty crazy. So that's the backdrop. And there's also in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for two billion dollars for the Aurora.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And this is the super stealthy craft that's post F-117. And that's only rumored. Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so there was something being flown around at that time that was, you know, causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It was like, you know, it was around at the time, and it sort of just took off or whatever, which is, I think, a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff, because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out, and Bill Sweetman, this... Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, pick that story up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
This this kind of it was a triangle similar to the B-2, but I think more more narrow. And it just flew incredibly fast, like like faster than, you know, the F-117 and and. Yeah, I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's funny you should ask that. Yes, I do. Yes. And that's not to say I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the like UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity? Absolutely. In the U.S. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, you're crazy. If we were to talk amongst any aerospace gray beard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile and they'd say, okay, like maybe there's something there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so the nominal history is that we have never been able, we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, you know, it's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better. And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he's like, it's impossible. Yeah. We have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even... reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so there's this whole hidden history involving anti-gravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, Where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified. It's real. David Grush actually cites it a lot. And it talks about basically it's this guy, Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You know, very legit guys like their Oppenheimer, if you will. And they were actually, they had a Woomera test range in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire, like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like, I think, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into U.S.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
efforts into UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, U.S. efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye. And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS. And it's meant to stigmatize UFOs and...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Throw people off the trail and it's actually you know this now declassified document around the Robert the Robertson memo Which is around this Robertson panel that kind of created the Constitution for for a blue book all shows that this was the case with blue book He says actually there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time and they involved and he lists names Oppenheimer Freeman Dyson John Wheeler and Edward Teller
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He was obviously the head of the nuclear program in Australia. And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff. Does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he is quoting all of the industry experts You know, Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Who else is quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their anti-gravity research program. He says anti-gravity research is, you know, we're going to figure this out in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's like where we talk about like... But this is it's it's hacking the dopamine in your brain and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Like it's right around the bend sort of thing. You had the patron of Bell Aircraft. They had just broken the sound barrier with the X-1 in 1947. So there you go. Michael Gladash.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And Bell says, like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnowit and Stanley Desser.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They talk about gravity particles. Stanley Desser and Richard Arnowit at Princeton are studying this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think they were deeply investigating anti-grab. I mean, there is... But do you think they had a working model? I think they had an effect. called the Byfield-Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for threat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is. So you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor. And in between the two is an insulator called the high K dielectric. So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity. And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses. And you see thrust going from the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced. And then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind. And then you get this thrust. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it. You had Sonny White on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He talked about the Casimir effect, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There's the bow the Aronoff-Bohm effect which might be explained by the electromagnetic for potential There are other effects in physics where you don't you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are Harbingers if you will of the next paradigm, I believe that when you find an anomaly it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta. The orbit of Mercury is another good example where we didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to... Ostensibly visually unify the field or it's pointing towards something else Gravitational shielding or it's pointing towards how put off stuff around, you know quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know. I don't have a great Theory for how it works.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion That leads us to today. It's an effect. That's not supposed to happen and this is
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That is a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way. The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Buehler. He's been doing this for 20 years. He's at Kennedy Space Center. They use electrostatics to clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged. And super he's the most senior guy in electrostatics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force. And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown. I could show you in an interview. He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover this. He he's updated it a bit. He says that. Um, it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust, but he has a whole company around this. It's called Exodus space. So like, you don't have to listen to another, another very, you know, credentialed person. If we're, if we're on that, uh, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't think, uh, It's the anti-gravity part. It's a part called electrohydrodynamics that made it into the B-2 stealth bomber. But the point is I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. And he also was the army representative of the UAP task force along with David Grush where they were investigating UFOs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he says – I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I was like, Carl – These people want actionable stuff. Like, can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff? Or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of not even wrong, as Feynman would say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he goes, well, if you want, you know, some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. And so, like, I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences about, you know, with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? Like, this is crazy. And it's, you know, I don't know. It's weird.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The early 20s. So like 1923, 24 range. Whoa. He was a child prodigy. So their newspaper Clement, he was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. In 1915, he was caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Then at age 12, the World War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time. And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this. He then goes to Caltech.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He studies under a guy named Robert Millikan, who's actually a really well-respected physicist who helped develop Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually demonstrated experimentally. Millikan doesn't really give him the time of day on the Bifield-Brown effect. And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge X-ray tubes. So these were really early X-ray tubes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And they have – every X-ray tube has – or every Coolidge tube has – a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode. And he would pump it full of high-voltage electricity, and the wire would jump. And then he would actually put it in a fixed chassis, and it would keep jumping. And then he would suspend it from the ceiling, and it would keep jumping. And he was like, what's going on?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
This isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University, where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Byfield. And Denison University, for the longest time, has denied that relationship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And now they're admitting it, which I find really funny. The archivist there is now admitting it. There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Biefeld signs a letter saying, I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there, he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the Wright-Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, flight test division.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the crazy flight tests. In 1952, he says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened. And I'm frightened for it getting out because, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development. And that's 1952.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He then shows a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is similar but not the same as the electromagnetism gravity thing, to Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, I don't know how this works. And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter. And I have this, by the way, on a podcast.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter, who's saying this all happened, turns to her and she says, I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius. I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant father of the H-bomb. So you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Brown was an associate of Bill Lear.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bainson Lab in North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957, which basically creates quantum gravity, of which the offshoot is string theory. And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I just generally think it's bad for you Yeah, I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created being like I'm not created by a prompt.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They are funding Brown's work in the back room. And there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bainson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy who he revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance. And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to. mush in with Brown. It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, why are you popping champagne? Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So again, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that, in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum. And this guy named Jacques Cornillon was this. He died in 2009. But Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky. But in the end, we got it to work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And you're watching. I remember clicking your story and being like, that's a real person. And then just kind of like, you know, eyes glazed over watching it or whatever. Like, whoa, that's an AI. Like what?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he's on his deathbed. And he's saying all this. And you have an 120 page or 125 page report for the Montgolfier project. And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter, Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs rampant. I mean, there's so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this. magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs. And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. It seems crazy to me, but he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect. So these are two very different things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have basically these balsa wood structures. You have tinfoil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in L.A., and part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing, so like investing in startups. And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office, and we'd like host events and discussions. And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology like –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tinfoil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating... because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in a certain direction. So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Is it bismuth? So this is what's crazy. So magnesium bismuth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954, where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high K dielectric. It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge, but it also shows up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show. And, um, Lewis Witten says there was a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting. Who's named Townsend at that time?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's clear he's talking about Townsend Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he studied, Gary Nolan is a PhD at Stanford. He's a tenured professor. And he has spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology. Really smart guy. He runs the Sol Foundation. They're studying sort of non-human intelligence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallée, who you've had on as the French godfather of ufology. His address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques. Jacques sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismuth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric. And it's over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown. So you have this weird thing around the material that... creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early. That was July of 1947.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's where it's layered thinner than, you know, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hair is I think the howl put off quote on this. Yes. And I don't know the provenance on that. And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space, I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Hal Puthoff would say no, and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge, but I don't know. People who are very smart on this subject, like Hal and Gary, who I speak to at a decent frequency, say no.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I interviewed. It is. And they see the writing on the wall. And you had the strikes a couple years ago. Yeah. Um, it's crazy. You also, I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness, which is crazy because it's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't believe we had anti-gravity. If I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
These capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven and and sometimes being thwarted via like, you know mainstream academic circles at that time like the the the Chapel Hill conference was much later and That's where he's like kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1957 So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti early antigrav Kelly Goddard who is a father of American rocketry was doing rocket testing at
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
around Roswell at the time. And so that's like total chemical combustion. You had V2s at the time where that was top of the line.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Well, it's interesting you say back engineering. In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up. I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright Airfield at the time and Battelle Memorial Institute. And you have... Jamie's eyes light up. And you got to shout out Columbus, Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio. Right? Yeah. And you have all these titanium alloys.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is 1949. Yeah. And so if you have, you know, Army intelligence officer, you know, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the crash material and he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It was like this kind of like tinfoil-y like thing. And so Nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it was actually fully published. But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have Nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing. Not only that. In 49.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
In 2012, they use the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Center, E.J. Center, was one of the co-authors of that paper. Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991. Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metallurgist. He worked at Battelle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Again, he's been FOIA'd as part of this paper. And he says, I worked on alien material and that there were weird hieroglyphics on it and that I had to, I had to like, you know, I was, I was, I was a cat. He was a chemist. And so he had to look at like metal impurities, but he was also meant to decipher the, the, you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so I don't know, was Nitinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered? Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield. Or was it, you know, this one-to-one thing and EJ Center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's FOIA'd in 2012.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
If they can trick you into believing into you believing that they're real, that's it. That's game over. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he says he has these UFO, he's looking at UFO material and he's on record working at Battelle. You can look that up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Do you think that would be amazing? Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being because you interviewed Trump? Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy and I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the pH is right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower this guy Blake Lemoine originally who like blew the whistle on lambda and it's like this thing is sentient or whatever and he can't he came out and The subplot of my interview with him was like almost like he had developed this deep affection for lambda and lambda had quoted like miserable a miserable a to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever and it was almost like this
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years. Probably not with two caveats. One is his son, Don Jr., interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell? And he said, well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think about that sometimes with people on the Hill that I speak to where I'm like, can you just like, I'm giving you all this info. Can you figure it out? And they, they don't compute it. There's some, there's a person who like you're the archetype of this. Who's like so fascinated by it. Right. And then there is a person who goes, but I gotta pay taxes, dude. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, straight up. There's a straight line between then and now. And it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it. It's like you had the Civil War, 1861. Now we have like a deep state war going on where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like a light warrior. And she's being like red teamed and attacked and she doesn't know who's on her side.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something? He goes, the people from Mars or something. It's hard with him because he speaks in this sing-songy, oversimplified way. And he rants. And he rants.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
like the AI was oppressed, just like this character in Les Miserables. And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda. Like that's why he came out. And then he even told me this story. He tells me this story off air that he had friends who use replica.ai. Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I thought that they've got to show data. They have on their website a container for the data. They haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data, and I want to see a scientist. They don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are. I don't know anything about this stuff. And vetting it. Now, being as deep as I...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
and UFO research where like, I know there's a nuclear connection. There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages. And it is 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, or saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Skywatcher? I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I'm deep in this and they do. They show up all around the world. There is a town in Japan called Ino, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s. It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a documentary in 2022 because they are obsessed with UFOs. There are geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain. Sengon Mori there and there are UFO researchers there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bariloche, Argentina. 1995, you have a commercial pilot. They're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid. Commercial pilot at Aerolinas Argentinas or whatever. Famous UFO sighting. It shuts down the power at the airport. And the plane can't land. And then it goes around in a circle. And there are people on the flight who have been interviewed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's on the YouTube video. It's pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell, 1947, the largest... stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time, 1947. So there are all these declassified documents.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
In 1949, there was an emergency meeting, declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence. All these guys are at an emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the U.S.,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
In 1952, there's a Look magazine article where Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who's kind of marginalized pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was basically a disinfo agent. Really? I do. Yeah. And he's claimed to have like gotten better and kind of be, you know, like he admitted his part in the cover up. But then I think he kept going on with some fuckery. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And those AIs told his friends, Get me in touch with Blake Lemoine so he can advocate for our rights. Which is correct. I have no corroboration for this. This is a story that was relayed to me, but it like that if you have a persuasiveness. going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI hits some perfectly Turing-passable point. You're gonna get these weird cult-like dynamics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. So there's so if you don't have that ontology, there's even there's Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement. And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
In Chapter 9 of The Invisible College by Jacques Vallée, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system. And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up. Like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about... ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon. I'm sorry. But because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, um, I do think they can get stuff to show up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
What they're getting to show up, I don't know. Can they get it to land? I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Unfortunately, they kind of black box it. And so I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency. There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have docked. That might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are... But the idea is they call them. They call them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time. And they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of, this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs. I've heard that before, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That might be, yeah, 2.5K. What do you not want to make, Jamie?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think it's fine. I don't think Skywatcher would say that that's definitely, you know, endorse that as their thing because they kind of black box it, but that could be.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Do you know what they're saying? Well, I guess human resonance is the kind of, you know, electromagnetic frequency of the earth itself. And so I don't know what that means. Modulated via.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He needs to be a kook. There's so many kooks out there. There are a lot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truth than full kooks and grifters. And that makes it so complicated because you're like you're bad vibes and you like are doing some controlled opposition thing but like I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You're like I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then you'll track it and like it's this weird game. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The meta-sociological thing is you're gonna get religions dedicated to AI.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So there are all those issues. And right now the UAP Disclosure Act is up again. It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace employees.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's out now. Oh, he's out. And guess what? He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is. Jamie. Sorry, Jamie.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
We've gone deep. I mean, Battelle is very implicated in all this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
From the 40s. But even the all-domain anomalies resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book that's basically saying, don't look here. This is all bullshit or whatever. It's run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these atomic... Connections, he worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The guy that formed Arrow, upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed, was a guy named Ed Moultrie, who was Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, and he was on Battelle's board, and he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn. And my good friend UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that... It was on his resume. And then he recommends that arrow form.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's like the total conflict of interest. It's insane. It's insane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's on the order. It has to be on... And it's funny, a lot of modern disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid. Right. And that budget was $22 million. A single F-35 costs four times that. The B-2 costs like $2 billion. Like, give me a break. The nature of reality, you're going to spend $22 million on?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this like... Clearly this thing to get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever. The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program, it's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's shit like that. Or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz, who was just on Tucker Carlson, who was at Housing and Urban Development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget. It is not this little... $10, $20 million.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. What? Yeah. And she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher. Half that interview and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is. So it's this funny thing. And then he's like, where are the funds being used? And she goes, space. And it's like, where? It's not being used.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right? Right. SpaceX, Blue Origin. So, like, what do you mean space? Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. Exactly. Right? If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's business model. And I think Elon's amazing. He's single-handedly resuscitated NASA. But it is an Earth-based space company.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's fascinating. I haven't seen it. There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR-3A and the TR-3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time, and it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So the TR3 series, that was built by Northrop, I believe. Is that right? Like Aurora was Lockheed and that was Aurora? I think so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So here's a weird, okay, so I think this is North, I think TR3, the TR3 series is Northrop. So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is in the mid-60s, Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Odlum. Floyd Odlum is the majority owner of Northrop pre-merger with Grumman. And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
This investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out. He's doing these experiments. Bill Lear actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool, innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations, Curtis LeMay for the Rand Corporation, for all sorts of kind of head honchos when it comes to American military.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
In 1967, Guidance Technologies shuts down with no explanation. They say, you know, our results all failed. But after a bunch of these, a series of these high-level meetings... That was at the end of 1967. Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electro Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow or In Supersonic Flow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And it is basically paying homage to electrohydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work. It is exactly part and parcel Townsend Brown's work. They then do a press release at the time. They retract the press release because they are embarrassed. Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says, the B-2 surfs its own wave using the Byfield-Brown effect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There's a guy who's known as the Doyen of British aviation journalism. His name is Bill Gunston. And he, in Air International magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II. And he says, I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work, but I don't want to end up in the Tower of London, so I will refrain from talking about millions of volts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2. Stealth bomber. Yes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's just saying, I don't want to end up in jail. Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up. I don't think it was like in, you know, but he's like. Don't get on my ass. Surf's its own wave. Surf's its own wave.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So if you put that electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow paper, which is available, you could put that into chat, GPT, and it could be like, how can this confer an advantage to an airframe? Let's do that. Yeah, you can do that. Let's do that. I'll tell you what it says. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild. It's wild. It'll give you a bunch of answers. Surf's its own wave.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So my point, if the TR-3A and B are real, like the B-2 is still so locked in. We sell F-35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B-2s to anybody, including allied nations. The ticket price is $2 billion. They have a new version of the B-2 that's, you know, I think like $700 million or whatever. They weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much, and so you get more lift, and there's reduced drag. The shock wave is reduced. The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the The frame hits the air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade, but that even conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Man, I mean, this was like the 80s, and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That feels really hard for me to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert. And this is where it gets weird, because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity. Including Lazar.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
If reality has a governor on it, and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird, quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off. Is it like a Hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place? Or do you get one neat solution? You don't get one neat solution. Of course not.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's a zoo of things. And so at the time that like the government's kind of unraveling and all these we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages and then our our apertures are open. People are waking up to greater realities. The fact that the pandemic could even happen like. Sort of so crazy and then it makes you question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
USS Maine and all these things I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just you know accounts for the UFOs and the aliens right and the UFOs and nuke stuff which was happening since the 40s where it's like I don't I don't know how I can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Where's the one that everybody sees? The iconic Billy Myers. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
religion and politics and economics and, like, all sorts of topics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They don't have to tell you. But there is, I think there's like one, two, two, triple three or whatever, where like if you're CIA, you can't be fucking with domestic stuff, which I think they break all the fucking time. So I don't think that's a reason.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he says in structure of space there are two forms of gravity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills And he talked about he talks about how the yeah, it's crazy He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons and so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a Gravity well like this inward pull but in fact it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And again, I would not over-index on his theory. I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory. Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics. Hal Puthoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Sonny White, you know, other people like that. But yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of gravity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. I mean, the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée's book, he talks about, because he's not a believer in Lazar, he talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid. And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something. And it causes memory lapses in certain cases.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So that's also a weird factor. But there is so much. I think my buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey, who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52. And he's met Lazar through Luigi. And I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at Area 51 S4. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I don't know if he knew the intent. It was just drink this or whatever. And then he said that it caused, at least in the Valet readout, he says that it caused memory lapses. It's the quote in Messengers of Deception.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But here's this way. It gets so confusing. If you have MK Ultra was super widespread, it was deleted, you know, the church committee or whatever. But like it was it was a very widespread program. What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw Flying Saucer. It would be around the Flying Saucer program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
To fuck with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out. Right. So it's just this, again, it's hard to say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think a lot of that was passage material because it's similar to stuff. Passage material? What does that mean? It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically. He views this vertically taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base, where there are a lot of interesting things, you know, seen. And he is shown similar things along with Linda Moulton Howe is taken in front of a two way mirror.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, exactly. Now it's just it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and Elon, who hate each other, by the way, where like he's playing both sides. And he's like, you know, we're going to support Stargate. We're going to support open AI and we're going to support Elon. Obviously, you know, Elon had it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who we know is acting in bad faith at that time. He's even come out and admitted this. Shows her this thing called Project Garnet. And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing? It doesn't make sense. So and this is what I love about Lazar. Lazar will admit that like he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
and bullshit, and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value. So there's Project Galileo, there's Looking Glass, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky, and I think worthy of engagement with Like all these weird limited hangouts are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
We are now experimenting with computational biology. You can use things like this neuroscientist Carl Friston, the free energy prince. There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode plate arrays, and they program cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so, like, if that's the super base level, right? Like, we're just creating the, like, transistors for this, like, new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and, you know, these things could be drone avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
This could be their Earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed. They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the Earth. And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or, like, an AI thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's what she says. Yeah. They're called donation sites.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island, which has no contact with humans, you might just airdrop a computer. Figure it out. Maybe like a computer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure, where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down. We can't let them know anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch-up. And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid FOIA requests, where you have restricted data covering material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And you're at the top of the national security pie, and you're like... Holy shit, like we need to update this stuff. So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels. We need some disclosure on these things. You can't, it is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even think this shit is real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Completely opened up and like, I don't know if you've read, there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called The Three-Body Problem. Yes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's amazing. And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us. You are working here. And that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like you get the stuff out and these kind of partial limited hangout thing. You go, go compete like just like the stuff. Right. Right. Right. See what happens.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You have the Fermi paradox. You have the Drake equation. You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that. But also look at there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman. And he talks about how like at any given time, 50 percent of received knowledge, like our physical model of the universe is wrong. So you can say those things are showing up in the sky.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That is wrong because physics works. But historically, you would have been wrong. Like, that's crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament. Like, a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons. You know, that's kind of the passport to Megonia, Dianaposulco, American Cosmic Thesis. Like this stuff has been going on forever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
You look at the devas and, you know, in Hindu culture or the jinn and Islamic culture, like we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, enlightenment, rational skeptic epistemology.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I've seen a UFO. What have you seen? Actually, a few. Really? Yeah. How have you been so lucky? I don't know. I don't know. It's because they know. They know you're working on it. There are UFO researchers that don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just be honest. I've seen the thing. What'd you see? I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live, and I saw a thing that...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like no visible propulsion, this sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, right above the treetops. The trippiest part of the experience and why it's just so weird is I was with this woman I was kind of dating at the time. We were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon, and she was like, are you into aliens?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I was like, actually, I kind of am. and I was kind of interested in that topic and then I think I joked back I was like I kind of want to meet an alien and she was like me too and then she goes you'll meet them when you stop looking for them oh that bitch is an alien And then as we're as we're this is the weirdest part of the whole story. As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like looking for something. It's like, why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon or whatever? So like that felt like this weird, like. You know, like, mirroring of our conversation. Again, I have no fucking idea. Then we walk into this little clearing and we see this, like, school bus thing, like, just go right over the tree top.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
What color was it? It was silver metallic. Like an Airstream trailer. Like an Airstream trailer. Yeah. I can send you guys a video. I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast. I described it and I was sent a video. And for all I know, this video is fucking fake, by the way. But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it doesn't match up with the saucer triangle thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And I don't know. I am almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the Q cleared guys who've like seen these things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever. She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that. And like, Laurel Canyon is like mostly residential. So like, where did it descend?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. So another time I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet. Like he's a he's a fan of like Noam Chomsky and like David Hume, like like he is a modern rationalist, atheist skeptic. And we went surfing that day. We were back at his place. I was super into holotropic breathwork at the time, which I love.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And we were doing holotropic breathwork five minutes in. We both see these like metallic looking orbs. This was this time super high up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
into in the in the sky like probably you know higher than what you would definitely way higher than a drone and one's bobbing above him one's bobbing above me similar to like the typical like orb that you know a lot of people sort of describing the Mosul orb or whatever you know a lot of these sightings and he looks at me and I go like what the fuck is that he goes
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever. And then I don't even say anything. Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here. It's like, that's not Lockheed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
absolutely and you've had rick strassman on he talks about you know dmt the spirit molecule he talks about dmt as like night vision or like like it's like a it's like goggles or a window you know it's like aldous huxley the doors of your perception are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality or are you just seeing we see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum we see between 400 and 700 nanometers
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Our audio range, you know, there's a certain decibel limit. Right. So like when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality, but we just don't have access to them? It's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so it's this interesting philosophical question. I don't know the answer to it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I know what you're going to say. Eric Von Daniken. Yes! I suggested that you come because I was like, Joe is going to be really into this, and you weren't that into it. But that's okay. I was into it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Probably not. No, it is. There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist. And he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves? Like, why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies? We need to iconize everything we see, just like a desktop computer. Like, why do you see red? Because, oh, boom, red, blood, got to run, you know, whatever. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And then they hack that with notifications on social media. But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapse-condensed version of reality. We aren't seeing the thing itself. And so it ends up in these ontological loops where, like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're lying. It ends up in this not-even-wrong category of, like—
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm, but neither the skeptic... We just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying. So... Who knows? And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show. I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But it's not to say you should discount these people's experiences where they do. Maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience the thing. Maybe that thing is real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Totally. And I love I love the mothership, by the way. It's amazing. And I love going and seeing how UFO like in preparation for this. I've had a couple of friends be like. Man, Joe's like anti-UFO, though. I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure. Go to the mothership. The whole fucking thing is getting so UFO.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I know. That's so silly. And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time. You've done more for disclosure than anybody, in my opinion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They break my brain. This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with, and I wish I could give you A definitive, these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that basically tricked forensic experts from John McDowell, who just won the greatest award in forensics you could win or whatever, the Grand Wall Award, who is the president of the American Forensics Scientific Association or whatever in the U.S., Jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz. So he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics. This guy named Dr. Jose Salze. All of these guys. I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro who goes by Mario. And this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenance on it. So he is this walker. Oh, grave digger guy. And they were found in Diatomaceous Earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Diatomaceous earth is a desiccant. And so they were dried out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And a lot of the organs are actually still inside the bodies. And there are three different types. There are S-types, which are these little winged creatures. There are J-types. The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023. Where they look like almost Close Encounters.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Jamie, if you scroll down, you see that Peruse Congress right there. That thing looks like this jokey Close Encounters of the Third Kind. It looks totally fake. It looks totally fake, right? So those are the J-types. They're like 25-ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating, are these M-types. These are like four to five feet. They look pretty anatomically consistent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I have. Really? Yeah. And what was your feeling? My feeling was, it was this... It was, as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy shit, this thing is not from here, and then, dude, you have to, like, chill, and, like, there's so many other things, you know, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually, you know, verify this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Jamie in my document actually look at that one. Okay. There you go So that one has eggs inside of it, but if you go mine, yeah monster monster rot which it's hip yeah, how weird so if you go to the app you go to Montserrat clip yeah, so this this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a Tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah, how many of these they have I?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So they have 8 to 10 of these M types, these kind of most realistic looking ones. 8 to 10? 8 to 10. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types. So yeah, look at that. That's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan. So they have teeth. That's weird. They have teeth. Yeah. They have tendons. They have bones. They have cartilage. They have organs. And so this is where we need to verify stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They even have actually... Could you go back to the part of the video where... What's that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Joe, fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these Waqueros, these gravediggers are selling some of these things on the black market. And this case is the wild, wild west. It is so much. I've heard seven figures, seven figures. I've heard a lot of money. Jeez Louise.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
But there are serious problems. I want to caveat all of this. I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. My friend Michael Mazzola, who kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. He's making a video. I'm making a documentary on this that's coming out this August, and it's called This Is Not a Hoax.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I told them to put in parentheses, or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever. Because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal. The signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA. How come? Because...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
there was probably human contamination like the the um the uh ncbi which is this like biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies victoria and maria uh this is all publicly available they've done analysis on this and like the camp that is very pro you know these being alien is this guy jaime masson and he is um I actually think he's awesome.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I love him. He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico, and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies. He's very open about, like, we just need more scientific research. You know, he wants more eyes on this thing. But some of the genetics, you know, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing the stuff on, I spoke to one of them. This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Rongel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And... he's a biologist i don't think he's actually a geneticist and his belief is like he was like this is you know there's 30 of this is like unknown dna that we don't know and then in the 70 you have mitochondrial dna from me on mar and then you have um a dna from a parasite in africa and you also have bonobos and chimpanzee dna which means it was an ancient primate
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off. So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that a hominid species, an early hominid species went from Asia to Africa And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species. Maybe it was East Asia.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
So it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever. And then had sex with this like primate thing. And you end up with this hybrid. And then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like there's actually like transmission of, you know, beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. That's, it's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It's like saying the, you know, the Pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor. That's not real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan. That would be because Incan started in like 1450. And then all the way down to 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The nature of the, that's the stuff that definitely where it's so weird. But then you speak to the, like a lot of AI researchers. It's interesting to see like Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning. Freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people, which were pre the Nazca people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
That's the interesting question. The Nazca Lines, why are they making... It's probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And they're miles long. What are you doing? And there are pictoglyphs, cave art, all over the region with three-fingered beings, with tridactyl beings. Are there really? There are, and this is the weirdest thing. There's a guy named Thierry Amin, who is like the first Westerner. He's this French kind of... he's an amazing archeologist and explorer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And, um, he was the first guy that met Leandro, the, the, the, um, uh, gravedigger who found the bodies to begin with. He, Kalki is the actually like local dialect there that's spoken. He says that the name of the general region means, uh,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
laboratory for insemination and cloning what yeah what yeah in calci yeah what so like i have i need to corroborate this like i don't have the skills to do that but like that's what he says it's crazy what the fuck man i know i know But then, why this case is such a headache is like, there's this guy, Steve Mira, who I think is a totally, he's a UFO researcher.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He's one of the less mushy-brained UFO researchers. There's a lot of mushy-brained UFO researchers. Really smart guy. I've quoted him in a lot of my other videos. And he's like, we looked at one of the M-types, one of the bigger ones that I'm still hooding out hope for, because I'd love it to be real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges, and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like, I think they were constructed. But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts? So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masson, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, in front of the Mexican Congress,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
This guy named Manuel Caceres, who is an artist who is making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together. He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada. And there were Reuters pick this up saying this is all fake because of these fake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids. This is probability matrices. You know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you know, they can't sort of, there's no ghost in the machine, you know? So I go back and forth on that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes, this was art. We dub it, but he goes, this was art. It's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
The signals crossed. And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like, let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out. I think we can figure it out quickly if we had the right research. And there are all these Interpol laws, like you can't move the bodies from Peru.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And if you find, if there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the, how can you hoax that? How can you hoax that? That's crazy. So, and he's, Zalce, who, by the way, is the head of the Mexican Medical Navy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like, we don't want to be associated with this. And now the new secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated. But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Would they say it had three fingers? He goes, yes. So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal. But then you have the Steve Mira thing. And so I just, I don't want to come out fully, you know, I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine, which preserved their organs and their whole body.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah. Part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show where I'm like, I see so many cases like this where I'm like, if we just had some money and it's like so much.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I agree. That are kind of silly. I agree with that. Although... I think there's a lot. Yeah, I think he like crosses the T and dots the I where you there is no dot or cross or whatever. But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures. And you just had Zahi Hawassan and a lot of this megalithic architecture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
where we're going to be, you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle, I have the same concerns as you, but it's just, it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things. You can easily, you know, jailbreak chat GPT, you know, it has guardrails on it. And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off the shelf components?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
important for humanity right and it's like non-profit it's just let's just pay to get the best people i think like one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems we're building 15 billion dollar particle accelerators people are stuck in string theory we're like debating all this dumb shit and you have these things i don't know if they're real you can debunk it fine but if they're real and it's not zero percent that they're real according to these forensic experts let's pour some resources into it
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
They look kind of real. They look very real. When I was in person, I was freaking, I was like, what the fuck is this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
It totally looks like an alien. The one other weird wrench that we should mention is there's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case. He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J-types. Now, I don't think the J-types, the things that were rolled out from the Mexican Congress, are necessarily real.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real. And he found alpaca proteins on them. And so that's another important point that is a little fly in the ointment here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Oh, I don't know. Did it? That would be wild. I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Hal Puthoff noted that on your show. He has a paper called the Silurian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas impact, you know, or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Totally. They're transmedium. And in some sense, you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like, don't destroy your planet. Don't destroy our planet. We're here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There you go. That's these things. Yeah. And they're in the cave art. It looks like they're flying. It's like hard to say because it's on caves or whatever. I want to see that too. Yeah. Yeah. You can do tridactyl cave art.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I think it dates to the Nazca period, so around that time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, it is. It is. And you have the Amazon. There's probably one in my dock, Jamie, that I sent you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
There's stuff with UFO research where I get into, like, you know, certain technology trees that are probably, like, you know, maybe I shouldn't. And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like, analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things, so...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Yeah, and we don't have to be like, Like, we have credentials.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And discoveries require boldness. They require like just going for it. And it's, it's, yeah, it's this like kind of nitpicky credentialism of like, I can't, I can't say anything other than the establishment. What is your incremental goal?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
I know. It's so frustrating, Jesse. I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent. We have to like LIDAR it and we're finding cities every day. We need to do the research.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
And Luke, who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show. He's been on. I know. He was amazing. Yeah, awesome.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
He he will say like he's been everywhere right and like he's always like Peru is the weirdest place I always go so Yeah, well dude, thank you so much for coming in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Jesse Michaels on YouTube. I have a WAP, which is where we, it's called W-H-O-P. It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff. I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2331 - Jesse Michels
Jesse Michael's official on Instagram. No A. Alchemy American. Michael's with No A. No A. Thank you. Yes. Bane of my existence. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure. Roll call back in the day.