Jesse Michels
Appearances
American Alchemy
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He kind of is, right? It was all like, what was it like temperature inversion? He was a Harvard astronomer. And I think he was also a cryptographer and kind of deep in the national security state. And he would just write these kind of naysayer debunking books in the 50s. And he would describe all this stuff, you know, light reflections or, you know, temperature inversions and that sort of thing.
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But yeah, what are your thoughts on him? Why is he your favorite villain?
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Well, the other fascinating thing about Don Menzel is he went on to run the Bureau of Public Standards, which, you know, they're sort of codifying time zones, but also a lot of astronomical data as well. And so if anybody were to like manage our reality, it would be somebody in that position.
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And then I don't know if you know this fact, this is kind of trippy, but he had an understudy, a PhD at Harvard who studied right under him named Lou Branscombe. Lou Branscombe gave Edward Condon his clearance back, and Edward Condon went on to do a hit job on UFOs with the Condon Committee, which killed Blue Book.
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And so thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.
American Alchemy
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So it was literally Menzel's, like, protege giving Condon his clearance so that he could completely kind of put the kibosh once and for all on UFOs and kind of kill the field. So...
American Alchemy
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I think he should. Yeah, I think he's an arch-villain. I think there's something going on there. And we were talking in the car earlier about Carl Sagan, who I think is such a fascinating figure because, you know, we were saying he, in his early diaries, he would write all about UFOs. He was clearly sort of fascinated by them. It feels like if you read, you know, Pale Blue Dot or Watch Contact.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. He's sort of, it seems like this tongue-in-cheek reference to actual non-human intelligence or extraterrestrial visitation. But then publicly, he just seems to dogmatically flip on the topic and just become this kind of debunker.
American Alchemy
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Actually, right around the time when J. Allen Hynek kind of goes in the opposite direction, he was running Blue Book and Astronomer, and he says, you know, actually, I played a part in the cover-up, and So it's interesting that, yeah, Carl Sagan, there seems to be this kind of split between his private life and beliefs and public life on UFOs.
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Oh, well, thank you. How did you get in this space to begin with? Were you always in the space as a kid?
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Do you know who was running the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time?
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Currently, maybe. The guy at the time was Robert Sarbacher. You know those moments in the middle of the day when you feel your energy dipping and you just need something to help you reset. That's when I grabbed my greens and it's become my favorite way to recharge. Greens is a refreshingly delicious blend of 14 essential greens, adaptogens, antioxidants, and even mushrooms.
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who David Grush says went on to basically create UFO secrecy through the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, and was very close confidant with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's working on anomalous gravity research. And so it seems like Harvard was the epicenter of a lot of this interesting work.
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That's amazing. Yeah, I've always wondered how much. Do you think JFK was maybe privy to the UFO? Because there's this letter.
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That's what we do on my show. Yeah. But there's a letter that was FOIA'd. You know, the Freedom of Information Act was used to request it out of the government in 2005. And it was from JFK to acting director of the CIA, John McCone. It was after JFK had fired Alan Dulles.
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And he's asking for data on unknowns because he's worried that the Russians, the Soviets, might view it as a threat if they see the unknowns in their airspace. And Yeah. And if you're thinking about detente, that's obviously a really important vector to kind of think about. And so I always ask myself, you know, this guy, John Greenwald, Black Vault dot com, has done a lot of work on this.
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And he's looked into the veracity of this document and the verdict's still out. It's unclear. And I think there are a lot of reasons to think it might not be real. But. It's interesting because there were some people in and around the JFK assassination that think that maybe it had something to do with his inquiries into UFOs. I don't know.
American Alchemy
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There's a lot of fascinating questions to explore for sure. But that's really interesting. I didn't know he was, I mean, I know he was Harvard affiliated. I had no idea he was at all involved in anything they were doing in the world of astronomy. That's really fascinating and cool. Yeah.
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So you did Project Vasco, and now you're on to a new project to get more of a smoking gun, possibly, around these anomalous objects. Can you describe what that project is?
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Was that the extent of the vanishing stars just the 1952 or you found a lot of vanishing?
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Okay. Okay. So what exactly do you hope to do with Exoprobe?
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That makes so much sense. We were talking earlier and there are certain projects out there that kind of just use generic, you know, a lot of sensor modality, kind of constant observation, and then just the exclusion principle. And it's like, okay, there are all these objects we do recognize what lies outside of the scope of what we recognize. And you presented this really interesting example.
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kind of model, which updated me where it was like, no, you actually need a hypothesis going in. That's actually really good. That's good science. Having an idea of what you're looking for and then whatever signatures you'd expect to see from that thing and actually looking for that precisely.
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And so I guess the question for you would be in the case of UAP or UFO, do you have specific signatures you might be looking for?
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You just prove that there's a bunch of stuff outside of what you'd expect, but you're sort of using process of elimination forever.
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So when you say you're looking for light reflections and light emissions, is that specifically in a specific light wavelength, or is it other possible signatures, or it's just light?
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So you think, like, because one example would be, you're familiar with the Nimitz case in 2004, the Tic Tac. Yes. So that was detected right when a forward-looking infrared new system from Raytheon was installed on the Nimitz Carrier Strike Group system or whatever. And so people hypothesized that that aperture allowed them to see the UFO. Yeah.
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If UFOs are moving like we think they might move, you'd expect light stretching or light crunching. And so in the light stretching case, you'd get, you know, red shifts and you'd get, you know, infrared would be probably better. And then in the light crunching case, if it was moving towards you, you'd see UV. And so, you know, maybe these are good detection methods.
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Have you ever experienced, because you are going out on a limb and even looking into this stuff, you, Avi Loeb, a few other astronomers of serious pedigree are even entertaining this. Do you have you experienced any blowback for what you're doing?
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So not even commenting on whatever happened then. For me, I care about the truth as far as people's incentives around attacking the person. It's like, okay, go after the person when they did it, if you really care about the thing they did.
American Alchemy
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But to go after it right when you publish your paper about these anomalous objects, that seems to be at least motivated by the anomalous objects and trying to cover that up and not like the initial grievance.
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Good for you. Do you think we are close to finding anything? I mean, do you have like an intuitive sense for just the overall dynamic of, you know, finding kind of more of a smoking gun, more evidence?
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Some of my favorite people have been like unreasonably canceled and it's weirdly freeing because they're just like, when you get crucified like that, you're just like, whatever. Especially when it's like completely unwarranted and unreasonable, you kind of like let go and just, you know, and then you're really, you're kind of free.
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You're not bounded by like needing to be liked or validated, which most people are.
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What is that? The European Crash Retrieval Initiative?
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How do you go looking for crash retrieval? How can I get involved?
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And are the databases just like collect crowdsourced from people saying like online, I saw a thing crash and that sort of thing?
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Is there a correlation with where the crashes occur? Are they around specific sites or...
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Is the methodology like scraping the internet for like people writing about this stuff?
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Fascinating. Do you have a hypothesis as to, you know, per our conversation earlier, do you have a hypothesis as to what you'll find in the form of a crashed UFO?
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Do you believe most of them are flying saucers or do you think they're, you know, this Michael Schallenberger, this journalist just testified in front of Congress, put out this 12-page report, Immaculate Constellation, this program that seemed to be some unacknowledged special access program in the U.S., And in it, there are like, there's a taxonomy.
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There are like different descriptions of crafts. You have flying saucers, you have orbs, you have jellyfish is actually mentioned in this document. Do you believe in kind of a variety of things or do you think the flying saucer is the main thing or what do you think?
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Why do you think, you know, like, one, if I were playing devil's advocate and acting skeptical, I would say, if you really have crashes going on everywhere, and they're not just around military installations, then, like, why don't we have a smoking gun yet?
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Like, if you have plenty of UFO crashes in Europe and other places and remote areas, why don't you have some, like, Inuit tribe or something just come upon a crashed UFO and then, like...
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you know, some anthropologist is visiting and then they see the crash UFO or like, I don't know, random explorers or travelers or whatever, like not, we don't have one case of like somebody, you know, having like at least a larger craft. Gary Nolan has in his possession because they were mailed to Jacques Vallée and he did mass spectrometry on them.
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These objects from an Ubatuba crash in Brazil and, you know, from Roswell, you have bits and pieces of, you know, possible stuff, but you don't have like the larger objects that you might expect.
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What drives you on a deeper level? Do you hope we do make contact? And if so, how would the best form of that contact look like?
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Amen. Is there anything on molecular biology which you studied before or just life in general or religion or anything that you've rethought because of your current contemporary interest from an astronomical perspective in UAP?
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I have a weird feeling it will in our lifetime, which is like wild. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, right? Like Sam Friedman, unfortunately would have been wrong. Like, I don't think things shifted that much in the last 50 to 70 years, but maybe, maybe now things are speeding up. It kind of feels like they are.
American Alchemy
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We'll find out. Well, Dr. Villarreal, I appreciate you spending time with me. This was really remarkable to just learn about all the stuff you're doing. How can you know, is there are you looking for more funding? Is that like something that you're always sort of open to or like what? How can people help you, you know, in your in your efforts?
American Alchemy
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Awesome. Well, audience, help Dr. Virial if you can, if any of that applies to you. I really appreciate it. It was awesome. It was fantastic.
American Alchemy
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Interesting. And so can you explain what a non-cosmological redshift is?
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So it's stretching light. And you're moving lower down on the electromagnetic wave spectrum towards the lower nanometer range.
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So the verdict on redshifts is still out, but you've moved on. I've moved on. And you might come back at some point.
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So how did you get into, because I know you through my own interest in UAP, Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena. How did you get into even believing that that was possible?
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And is there any government interest when it comes to this? Well...
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Yeah, absolutely. We should go down there and try to gather resources.
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So how does looking at vanishing stars then lead you to an interest in UAP or UFOs?
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Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you want to give it up.
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And this is not a supernova or like, you know, the heat death of the sun type thing turns into a black hole or dwarf or something.
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We didn't have any of that technology back then.
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That's absolutely amazing. I mean, because... In UFO lore, not even lore, this was a national event. It was all over the press. It was in newspapers saying saucers on the White House lawn. It prompted a call between Truman and Edward J. Ruppelt, who was the head of Blue Book at the time. And you had this Washington invasion or DC flyover where there were saucers all over DC at the time.
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And it was July of 1952, but it was specifically two weekends. It was the 19th and 20th, and it was the 26th and 27th. So I find that absolutely remarkable. So these are naval records that you're looking at to see the stars.
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Got it. And so you're seeing images, you're seeing this three in a row and then five in a row in your case.
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Okay, got it. And then they just seem to vanish. They weren't in the public observable data like a year later or even a week later.
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That's wild. I mean, that's really fascinating. Is there anything that is distinct about them when comparing them to other stars in the images, or do they look like garden variety stars?
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I'm here with Dr. Beatriz Villareal, who is a phenomenal astronomer, both in a conventional sense, she's conventionally trained, but also I think you are a rare, kind of very open mind in your field, and you've found some very interesting things, and so I'm really excited to speak with you because you're kind of on the frontier, you're the intersection, I think, between scientific rigor and this burgeoning field of studying kind of anomalous phenomena in the air and in space.
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Can you describe the methodology of Project Vasco? What exactly are you doing?
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And Mount Palomar is an observatory and a telescope in California.
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Yeah, I think that's kind of hard to argue with.
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Do you remember Don Menzel? Do you know that name by any chance? Yeah. Famous astronomer.
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But it existed. And so that is that's just so fascinating.
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I'm just so impressed by you, and I'm grateful to call you a friend, and I'm really excited to have this conversation. We had another conversation, and it looks like that might go up on my WAP. this channel where we're trying to like foster really cool kind of community engagement, have conversations that kind of take it to the next level when it comes to UFOs.
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But this follow up should get crazier because UFO world has gone nuts since we last spoke. So it's an honor to have you here, man.
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But The Day After Roswell has a bunch of fluff added by its co-writer. That's interesting. And he wasn't super happy about that, right?
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That's so interesting because I was just talking to James Fox, who has an interview with Philip J. Corsico. And we need to put this out. It's not public. No, it is. It is.
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He said he's sitting on three hours. Oh, okay.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I think more can come out. And he was like... basically James Fox said, gun to my head, I get shot if I'm wrong. I think Philip J. Corso was legit. And so that's fascinating. He had a co-writer that might have kind of co-opted his process in some way because... There is stuff in that book that's, I think, clearly false.
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If you look at the tech tree around integrated circuits and semiconductors, I don't think you need alien intervention to describe. There's, I think, a Munich-like patent on a transistor that goes back to the 30s. But I do think we saw this stepwise leap in interesting technology around this time, especially in material science.
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And I do believe the basic Roswell story that like some sort of, you know, this memory metal.
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And I believe Jesse Marcel, this Air Force flight surgeon that, you know, may have handled this, this, you know, memory metal material and that it probably did make its way to Wright Airfield at the time, which Wright Airfield would have been the place you would have taken it because they were basically reverse engineering adversary tech. They had like Russian MiGs later on, but.
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Well, in 1943, they successfully reverse engineered a German pulse jet engine. So they were already successfully reverse engineering adversary retrieved technology. So it makes total sense that you'd take something there. And then basically, to complete the loop on Philip J. Corso, he says that that material is taken to Roscoe Hillencoder.
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Roscoe Hillencoder is the first director of the CIA, makes the call that Corso should be in charge of doling this out to, uh, basically civil side for civil side use cases, you know, to, to, uh, you know, for commercial purposes. So like bell labs would be like the main place.
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Oh, they just, they psyoped him, man. And he had 24 hours to edit it.
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It's been a crazy time. I don't even know where to start. Maybe we start with the Jake Barber story. So we're in unprecedented territory where we have somebody coming out, a UFO whistleblower claiming firsthand knowledge, saying that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft and then a video coming out of that may have been a little hyped up and anticlimactic. Yeah.
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Whoa! It is not only possible, it is essential.
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Well, it was almost... Not only you'd never be let in, like you can't even comprehend the reality of it. And I think it was a Don Quixote reference, right?
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Chasing after windmills, which that's always stuck with me. It's like disclosure isn't this file that you can just give to somebody. It's like I can't even tell you because you're literally unable to cognize what I might be able to share. It's just so fascinating.
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But if you listen to him, a lot of what he says is just extremely internally consistent with, you know, people like Michael Herrera, who you've done a great, great piece on and a lot of other accounts when it comes to, you know, UFOs and crash retrievals. It kind of indicates Stephen Greer as well. And so it's kind of hard to poke holes in actually just the core details of the story.
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And so and then just to add corroboration to the first thing you're mentioning with the Saarbacher Wilbur Smith connection, not only did he run, you know, research and development, you know, under under Vannevar Bush, he was head of Washington National Labs. He was just like atomic energy expert at the highest level in the US. And he was kind of scrubbed. This is Robert Saarbacher.
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He was kind of scrubbed from the Internet as well. And he was known for having an IQ of 200 plus or something. Just a brilliant guy. And so he's just this fascinating character who is also very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's this anti-gravity inventor at the time.
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Well, in 1956, when Thomas Townsend Brown does his experiment in Paris proving the Bifield-Brown effect, and that this works in a vacuum, and I think showing some sort of interesting coupling between electromagnetism and gravity, he comes back to the U.S. and he's picked up in a black Cadillac by Robert Sarbacher, who he's very, very close to. And so there's a lot of connection there.
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And so you had a third. So Eric Walker, Robert Sarbacher, both corroboration for this sort of ESP psionic thing.
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Yeah. No, I think it's the future of physics. And I think it's just... So when you have an anomaly in physics, if you can't turn it into math and... You can't instrumentalize it into technology. I think it goes into this category called an anomaly, and you just don't know what to do with it. And then the anomaly usually or often will get vindicated in a new theory.
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But until that anomaly gets vindicated in a new theory, you just have to say it's a weird anomaly, and we don't know what to do with it. And so parapsychology, I think, is... you know, parapsychology being the psionic sort of mind matter thing is proven experimentally. You can't turn it into math. We're in the Stone Age on it, and it's hard to turn into technology.
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Maybe inside, you know, government Circles, you know, have turned this into technology, but we haven't civil side. And so I think because of that, it's totally stigmatized. But if you look at other examples in the past, like blackbody radiation, you know, the 1860s or the orbit of Mercury, which was not described well in Newtonian paradigm, you needed Einstein to describe it.
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Until you get the new theory, you just don't get vindication for the anomaly. And so that's my take on it. It's not like physics outside of that branch has been productive at all in the last 70 years. It's actually been extremely unproductive.
American Alchemy
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But yeah, what's your what's your take on this whole Jake Parber phenomena?
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Yeah, after Stubblemine, Lynn Buchanan, the whole Stargate program, which ran from 1972 to 1995 and systematically kind of employed these psychic spies, which would gather intel, which was hugely consequential for the United States. figured out this, you know, novel Russian submarine, I think it's 78 or 79. And that was extremely critical for, you know, the US during the Cold War.
American Alchemy
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And he was thanked at like the highest level. I think Robert Baker actually was like, sort of very against his intel to begin with. And then he realized that it was sort of indicated after, after McMoneagle sort of figured this out and he won the Legion of Merit due to, you know, uh, the very productive activity he engaged in.
American Alchemy
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So I do think the office of Naval intelligence is the oldest, uh, uh, intelligence organization in the U S right. It goes back to the 1890s way pre pre national security act and CIA and NSA later, like pre all of that. So, I agree.
American Alchemy
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And for the audience, because they're probably drinking from a fire hose of facts right now, Randy Anderson is this amazing Green Beret who you introduced me to, who is really just, I think, a war hero. I think both you and I have heard offline of stories around his deployments to various countries that he wants to lay low on because it's not the Green Beret way.
American Alchemy
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He doesn't want to brag about anything.
American Alchemy
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But, you know, there's a number of people in his graduating class who've died. He's gone through a lot. And yeah, he was stationed at, he was an 18 Bravo weapons Sergeant, you know, an expert on all various weapons systems. And he was taken underground to this deep underground military base, which we know exists across the country.
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Well, I just want to hear you because you know, there's so, I got a lot of flack for that video and I, I've spoken to his colleagues. I've spoken to two of his Green Beret buddies now. I have their DD214s. Like, you know, I know a little bit about them and their background. And, like, I know that Randy is not lying.
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And there are people out there on the internet questioning his service, which is insane. And honestly shameful. You know, if there's anything substantive you have to say there or on the testimony, fine.
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He's a war hero. Just don't, you know... That's insane. And then, yeah, there are questions he has about his experience, you know, the off-world technologies division, like he doesn't know what that was, that human technology, was that, you know, non-human intelligence, you know, tech.
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Levitating above the podium. What makes you think that that was non-human?
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uh intelligence or military brass and suits and you know eggheads brought in a case opened it up and there was the same exact sphere that story continues to pop up it's either a sphere or a piece of metal and they want to see i just interviewed somebody yesterday and i can talk about this because it's going to come out this guy shane freaks hold that symposium on twitter and he talks about being shown a sphere
American Alchemy
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And so it's the same thing, shown a sphere and seeing how the person would react and if they have some sort of psionic connection to it. And it's kind of the same thing as the Jake Barber story where he locks on mentally to, in this case, the Akon craft. But there is a mental connection.
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And so that, that is, and then there's SAIC, I believe is on record studying quote unquote psychotronic technology.
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And they were operating Stargate, the psychic spy program in Palo Alto, like at the end of its existence. So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of history there that just corroborates where if You don't know the history. You're going to hear this Green Beret saying, I saw a sphere levitating in front of a podium and I mentally locked onto it. And you're going to be like, that's fucking crazy.
American Alchemy
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But you need to update your priors and like actually dive deep into the history of this stuff, which. I mean, you're like the tip of the spear on, but I often feel like I'm out on an island where you have very few people to talk to who don't realize that this stuff actually isn't crazy.
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If you're engaging in solid Bayesian reasoning, maybe you have to think probabilistically and it's not 100% this is definitely real or whatever, but your base case is that it actually is real because there's a lot of evidence around it.
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You hear it in pretty much every alien abduction account is this sort of mental telepathic connection. And I do find it interesting. Certain people are down for breaking physics in the form of exotic flight principles and metamaterials. But for whatever reason, that breaks our reality there. But they're not down for the mental thing. And it's like, why is that a bridge too far?
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If you've crossed this bridge, this bridge is crazy. So you have to open up all possibilities at that point. And again, think probabilistically. So maybe that second bridge is slightly lower probability than the first bridge, but I think people don't realize just how limited their thinking is around a lot of this stuff.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Yeah. There's a JSOC continues to come up, you know, as like they sort of go in, you know, and what's the connection between Delta Force and JSOC? Delta Force is a unit in JSOC.
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And my buddy Matt Pines made the connection that Lou Elizondo was actually part of this group called Gray Fox, which is, you know, deep military intelligence, but specifically it's like going into extremely sensitive sites, you know, for JSOC. Um, and so, you know, he might know a thing or two about UFOs from that, not just the OSAP, AATIP, you know, whatever that experience was around 2007, 2012.
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Oak Shannon, who is a Los Alamos project manager, very high up. Uh, you had, I believe like Ferris Williams, Kenneth shoulders, John, John B. Alexander, John B. Alexander, how put off guys like that. It was Eric Davis part of this or I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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It was clearly this sort of working group to figure out like the physics around UFOs. And I think according to Oki Shannon, there were some even spookier people who never speak and they just sit in the room and they'd sort of gather intelligence on this stuff.
American Alchemy
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And then when Greer started his kind of whistleblowing efforts, where he started to attract, this is Steven Greer, Dr. Steven Greer started to attract all these people coming out of the government and speaking to him. And he starts to promote this sort of CE5, like, you know, getting into contact with the UFOs, attracting them, whatever. Stubblebine and John Alexander show up around him.
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And I believe Stubblebine offers him a big sum of money to join legacy efforts or join the program or something. What's the story there?
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That's crazy. So what do you think was so valuable about what Stephen Greer was doing in 1992 that would, I mean, maybe that was a fake offer or like.
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He's brought a lot of exposure to the UFO world, and he should be really vindicated, and he's worked his ass off. But, yeah, it can be weird vibes, I think, at times.
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And what is he five sort of summoning? It's yeah.
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Yeah. He's it's, it's this mixed bag and it's, it's, it's somewhat unfortunate, but you, you, I mean, you have to express your sort of gratitude to him, but then it's also like sometimes you wish it came in better form.
American Alchemy
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Do you find him beyond reproach as a person?
American Alchemy
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And then he said you were not an intelligence. He cleared it up. Or he said you were an intelligence asset. No, Greer said I was an intelligence asset. Why is he basing that on?
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He's just fucking saying that you're an intelligence.
American Alchemy
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I, and, and for the record on record, you'll say you don't have a security clearance.
American Alchemy
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Do you have like a day job or is it, or is YouTube your full time?
American Alchemy
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Cause for, for, for what can you say?
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Normal dude. But that's been my way. He's going to have a massive channel and do this full time. And I hope so.
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And I'm sure like, you know, I've been guilty of it at times. Like, I don't, I don't think you can, uh, thoroughly investigate all of this stuff and get, it's, it's all so crazy and weird. You're going to get a little bit wrong along the way. And so like, it's, it's going to be this dialectical process where you have to wade through the bullshit and just have open conversations.
American Alchemy
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And I think as long as people think you're a good faith actor and you're like earnestly showing your thought process to everybody and you're like getting closer to an approximation of truth, That's all you can do. And then just admitting if you're wrong and if somebody comes at you with something substantive, just accepting that and incorporating it into your worldview.
American Alchemy
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I think the other tricky thing is people can say when you cover this topic that you are shilling a thing. Or grifting. Or grifting, which is absurd. I do have a company that encapsulates my show. I've never taken money out of the company. I've never made... I mean, money has come in through sponsors and that sort of thing because I do want this to be sustainable. I have costs.
American Alchemy
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And I'm down to make money on it long term. But what I was doing before was definitely more of a clear path to making a lot of money than this. If anything, I've lost a lot of money over the last couple of years. It's kind of funny. Yeah. But yeah, I don't think you can do anything else other than like earnestly kind of move forward and just be humble and cool and like people sense that.
American Alchemy
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Totally. Well, that's the beautiful thing about this subject is I don't. view it as zero sum at all. Like, I actually think you're like best in the world now and you will be like so much better there. Cause you're how old are you? You're like 28.
American Alchemy
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So it's like, you're like best in the world now, like tracking granular, like legacy activity stuff. I think I'm really good on the theory side, like, like, you know, like consilience interdomain consilience between like science and like theory and that sort of thing. And that's what I love. And then, you know, we have a buddy, Chris Ramsey, who has his YouTube channel, who like to me.
American Alchemy
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I think he's going to have like the biggest YouTube channel on this just because he's so – he's like the thoughtfulness that he puts into like production and storytelling is just next level and his skill set there is so good that he's going to open this topic up to like a whole new massive swath of people. And I think we're all like pretty like –
American Alchemy
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So you're saying so way against this Peru case. And then just for the audience, Michael Herrera is this case in Indonesia with this Marine unit.
American Alchemy
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I don't know, we all have egos, but we're pretty team players. And so I love that. I think that's really cool. And it's going to be a new era of this stuff where we can just work together and find the truth and compliment each other.
American Alchemy
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He spoke very highly of him and Luigi's super cool. I've talked to him. He's awesome. So this is this new documentary about Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar is obviously... If you've made it this far in the interview, you definitely know who Bob Lazar is. Absolutely, yeah. But he is famous for having claimed to have reverse-engineered UFOs at Area 51 S4.
American Alchemy
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And one of Rogan's biggest episodes, this wild controversy, some holes in his background. But spoken to Luigi and Chris, and they've actually really helped me update my take on Bob Lazar to the point where... I think he worked at Area 51 for sure. Area 51 or S4. Uh, I think he for sure worked at area 51, probably worked at S4.
American Alchemy
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And they see this sort of I guess he calls it Vanta black. Yeah. Eight gone shape that which Jake Barber describes as well. Craft hovering above the treetops. He kind of closes in on it. And then this like. really elite paramilitary unit then basically takes his whole unit into sort of custody and kind of reprimands them.
American Alchemy
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And then I'm not sure that what he was shown wasn't shown to him deliberately and he wasn't given high level frameworks as sort of passage material and recruitment for legacy, which doesn't make covering his story invalid at all. It makes it almost more interesting, but to me it has to be covered through this like meta lens. Yeah. If that makes any sense.
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Through the skepticism, but also like there's probably some real stuff.
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Yeah. I think we should all wait for Luigi's documentary project gravitar. Cause he's told me things offline that out of respect for him, I'm not going to share, but that give me conviction that he did work at us for around stuff that's gotten corrupt, but we'll get corroborated in the documentary. So it's pretty cool. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm saying Chris, Chris has as well.
American Alchemy
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And Chris is coming at this whole thing from an angle of like, he's a famous magician before this debunking other magicians. And so he comes at this whole thing through a more skeptical storytelling lens. And, um, he thinks that there's definitely something to the Lazar story and that he worked at S4.
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Why do you think there's so many things that when you talk, I'm like, we need to query this and this. Why is RAND so important?
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And then he thinks that this whole thing is part of some sort of psionic asset trafficking scheme where UFO legacy programs are actually taking people in third world countries like Indonesia back to the U.S., in order to summon Kraft. I mean, the whole thing.
American Alchemy
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technology soldier program yeah the university of southern california a creative research institute the and that's another really interesting thing where i think bob lazar might have done something in and around the mit could have well like that whenever he comes up with rogan rogan always says i'll tell you something offline where like it would make the mit records being deleted make sense yeah and then he can never say it off online could be a york
American Alchemy
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That would be my guess, that there's probably some interesting research that he was maybe involved in. Because from way back in the day at MIT, you had Carl Compton, who was president of MIT, who was rumored to be shown the craft at Wright Airfield with this sort of Anderson Trust, these CIA guys, and actually be very involved in legacy UFO efforts. And so, yeah, it's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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And now we have this super soldier program.
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Well, but with MITRE corporation and RAND, yeah, I, you would think of them as having kind of the top of the pyramid view on the technology. I believe the president of Rand Corporation for many years was a guy named Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich.
American Alchemy
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Ben Rich was the president of Skunk Works that says we have the power to travel the stars, to take ET home, and made all sorts of interesting comments at the end of his career. He also called UFOs unfunded opportunities. Yeah. Said that we have UFOs and they have UFOs, you know, so like humans do and ETs do.
American Alchemy
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Said there was an international corporate board controlling a lot of the UFOs and that maybe we needed to take it back into the hands of the US or something. Said all sorts of interesting stuff. His son was the president of RAND Corporation for decades. So I find that somewhat interesting as well. And Thomas Townsend Brown, when he's doing his anti-gravity experiments, the RAND Corporation shows up
American Alchemy
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sees the experiments, they have this meeting, something changes after the meeting. Townsend Brown, his experiments just fail. Something sort of, you know, nominally like they fail, even though clearly they hadn't failed.
American Alchemy
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And then to me, it's clear there's some covert IP transfer that occurs where his anti-gravity technology gets transferred to Northrop Grumman via his investor, who's a guy named Floyd Odlum, who has a majority stake in Northrop.
American Alchemy
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And so there's but there's something around the Rand Corporation there, too.
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Well, it's like if you were doing any secret science, if we live in the world where any science is classified, which, come on. Yeah, of course. And now, like, it's all coming out. You have people like, you know, Marc Andreessen, Ben Horowitz go to the White House. They say, well, classified math and the AI, just like we classified physics.
American Alchemy
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And like, you know, Eric Weinstein, my former colleague is. you know, constantly kind of opining on like this idea of the secret science branch. It's if you have to be stupid to not think that some science isn't classified. If we live in the world where it is classified, that stuff is going on in the places where we uphold the most secrecy, which is these DOE labs.
American Alchemy
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And so like, I don't think it's like conspiratorial. It's like, obviously if you're doing a high energy, really intense physics and, you're probably also understanding ontological truths that the rest of the public don't understand. That's often the case.
American Alchemy
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Like you start to understand things about reality due to some of these experimental effects where you're breaking the bounds of, you know, our reality in some sense, you know, through these, you know, high energy experiments. Like it makes sense that UFOs show up around nuclear weapons. It's high energy output. And if we live in any sort of like, Time bound, you know, 3d bound.
American Alchemy
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Like if there's anything outside of our, what we perceive, you would be stress testing that every time you set a nuke off, you just would. Yeah. So it's like not that crazy.
American Alchemy
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Totally. Yeah. Doing a lot of interesting material science there. It's not just a nuclear lab. Like they're doing a lot of frontier science at Oak Ridge.
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Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. And that was always, I believe it was at the HR Cross, HC Cross. You know what I'm talking about?
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Yeah. Project Stork from Battelle. Project Stork from Battelle, where it's now clear in retrospect. And I think this is a lot due to Richard Dolan's great research that like. You had this cleaving off of the vital study of UFOs. The public-facing stuff was relegated to Project Blue Book and the Air Force.
American Alchemy
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And then all the private stuff was managed by Battelle Memorial Institute, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence, and was classified under the Atomic Energy Commission, which occurred later in 54. But there was a precursor called the McMahon Secrecy Act. And so it would totally make sense that Patel would have a whole lot to do with this.
American Alchemy
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I believe Robert Sarbacher also told Whitley Strieber. So Sarbacher, I just interviewed Whitley Strieber.
American Alchemy
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He talked to Sarbacher. Sarbacher took an interest in Strieber. And when he published Communion? When he published Communion.
American Alchemy
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And so you're talking about an extremely advanced scientist taking an interest in a horror novelist's abduction account. And so Sarbacher's working at the highest levels of American military, and he takes an interest in Whitley Strieber, reaches out, wants to speak to him. And Strieber says they're about to meet up, and Sarbacher dies. Oh. Oh, yeah. And so it's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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And then again, Sarbacher's just scrubbed from the internet. Yeah. What Saarbacher, I think, told Streber on the phone is that you had all this interesting material that Battelle Memorial Institute was managing back in the day that Saarbacher was somewhat involved with. So just another piece of corroboration for this.
American Alchemy
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Is there a Mormon connection with Dugway? Because it's in Utah. And I think of like... The CIA is being fed into by just a lot of Mormons. Mormons were surrounding sort of Howard Hughes. Well, Greer likes to say so, right?
American Alchemy
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Yeah, we showed that conversation between him and Sandler.
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Sammy, are you in touch with any UFO whistleblowers, not whistleblowers yet, people on the inside who have firsthand witnessed crafts? Yeah. And anybody who has witnessed craft in a hangar, in a classified facility in the U.S., not just seeing a thing flying in the air?
American Alchemy
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No. And will they discuss the full extent? Why won't they talk publicly? Just, I do think it's important context for the audience. Like we're going to get comments, trust me, bro, or whatever.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything about the bodies and what they look like?
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How do you think this stuff gets so well hidden? Like, so, OK, I think there are some really important foundational questions that the Jake Barber story brings up, which is if you can summon these things on command, then you probably have a thousand plus. And if you have a thousand plus, then you'd expect more leakage. You'd expect more like I saw the thing in the hangar and I wasn't supposed to.
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Yeah, that's like, you know... Pretty shortly after the iPhone was released. So do you have any sense of what these elite paramilitary groups, who they're working on behalf of? Is it UFO Legacy Program? Is it the Department of Energy? I know that's been speculated at times.
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I took a photo and it's out. You hear rumors on the other side of this that we have 10 to 15 and they're like, you know, only select things and surround atomic sites or whatever. Yeah. How many do we have? 10 to 15 and a thousand plus. That's a, it's a wide range. And so clearly we can't like fully attract these things that will would be my guess. Cause I think if we had a thousand plus.
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these things would have leaked. So do you have kind of like a mental model on that?
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Yeah. So where, where are you there? Cause I think this is really important. Is like how, how much have we actually reverse engineered, made progress and made these things flyable? And you've gone really deep on this interesting story of Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen.
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But I'd love to hear... Let's go over that story, and then I also just want to kind of zoom out and get your view on, like, have we reverse-engineered UFOs effectively?
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Yeah, so McCandlish is a top aviation illustrator, working with the biggest contractors. And you hear him speak, and the guy doesn't seem like a liar to me.
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He was super smart and just almost slightly, I don't want to say autistic, but like... You just hear him speak, and he oozes authenticity.
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So this is like a back of the house, more secret version of the air show only for select people.
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And so sort of a typical saucer shape or maybe what you would see in the Kecksburg crash of 1965, like a dome on top.
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Yeah, he sent you some pretty weird shots across the bow and said something about... So Mark McCandless died a sort of strange death. Right. And he said something like, I couldn't protect him anymore or something. And then... I believe the filmmaker who made this documentary, I forget what the name of the documentary is on Mark McCandlish, which is called Zero Point, something about Zero Point.
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That's right, something like that. I think James Allen, he died in a weird way.
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Was it 1990? Yeah. So what does he say?
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So interesting. Cause yeah, that that's the rumor about Roswell. It was high powered radar that we sort of, you know, that messed with interfered with the flight patterns of these UFOs and then they come down. And we weren't meant to have this stuff.
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And then you hear rumors in and around legacy programs of whatever beings are in control of the UFOs want their stuff back and are extremely angry at the legacy UFO programs. And so that begets all sorts of weird ontological questions there. But I want to stick with the core details. So what else gives you conviction that this is true and that we do have flyable information?
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Because I just think, you know, so many people are going to sort of be skeptical.
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That's what's so interesting about this. It's as if we were given this sort of intact shell, and then we retroactively patchworked on kind of low-tech.
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The jump seats and the cameras, and then you kind of make this thing work, but it's this really low-tech combined with the really high-tech that we were given or something.
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I talked about it a little bit, but the alien scientists is this YouTuber named Jeremy Reed.
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Well, we can say this now because I said this in my piece with Randy Anderson. Randy Anderson, who you introduced me to, this Green Beret, amazing guy who claimed to be taken to this Off-World Technologies Division at Naval Surface Warfare Crane, also occasionally does contractor work at Area 51. And he's told both of us now, and I've said this publicly, that he has seen triangle craft that...
American Alchemy
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he can only presume to use his electro gravidic propulsion because it's not using, you know, normal flight principles, at least observably to him take off at area 51. Yeah.
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Okay. So then you have another guy.
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And there's so many stories about this. Even Paul Benowitz, who was totally mentally screwed up with and psyoped by Rick Doty, Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Project Beta is a great book by Greg Bishop, documents all of this.
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Um, you know, like even hit me, like the reason that he got onto the radar of all these kind of like counter Intel people was because he saw this craft, you know, vertically taking off and landing at Kirtland air force base that looked to be like, it was like, it was employing exotic flight principles. Right.
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And we know from William Steinman, this great researcher, UFO researcher that this guy, Eric Henry Wang, who ran special projects at Wright Patterson, uh, Wright Airfield at the time, was taken to Kirtland Air Force Base to work probably on some of this exotic flight stuff.
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But here's what's... I hate to say this. This all makes so much sense. But it just fits so well with all the other stuff you learned.
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So you just know about, you're not in contact.
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So many of these guys, as soon as you initiate contact, they say a little thing, and they say a thing, and they get kind of excited, and then they get spooked.
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I just don't understand why there isn't some sort of limited disclosure around these things existing, because it's like in the event in which, you know, we're at par with China and Russia. Why wouldn't you let out some like basic surface area that this stuff exists like that? That's what is it? Just this bureaucratic bullshit overhang?
American Alchemy
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Or are there real national security reasons for not letting this stuff out? And not letting it fully out, but, like, nuclear physics is not classified. Nuclear trade secrets are. Why is that not fully analogous to this?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Why? Yeah. There are all these... Well, it's like... you had under the Bush White House, Bush 43, they were going to do this sort of possible... They were thinking about disclosure and Hal Puthoff was part of this advisory group and they were talking about it.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And anyways, Bush 43... So Hal Puthoff is on record saying that Bush 43 contemplated disclosure with Stephen Hadley, National Security Advisor. And Dick Cheney, who David Grush is on record saying was one of the gatekeepers for the program. And... They decided that it was too ontologically shocking to let this out and that we couldn't publicly disclose about UFOs.
American Alchemy
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And I think that turned into a group where they were reading about – like they were reading The Three-Body Problem and other things like that. So super interesting. I mean this could also boil down to – And The Three-Body Problem, for people that don't know, is a Chinese science fiction novel. It's a great series. It's a great series and it involves –
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
basically like aliens controlling almost all frontier science. Yeah. Um, and, and sort of reality itself and being able to stagnate, but also, you know, upstart physics and, um, yeah, reality being sort of information theoretic and nature and the whole, the whole thing is so fascinating. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And so who does it roll up to? Because this is... I was trying to talk to Jake about this and it's like, there's an ongoing FBI investigation, so he can't say much. And then I did get him to say, well, you know, you could probably guess, you know, if you had two guesses on the aerospace prime contractor front, like, you know.
American Alchemy
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So we know that. He was going around to Air Force Base. That's fascinating.
American Alchemy
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So we don't know what's up there. Yeah, the Dick Cheney thing, I don't know what to think about it, but if there was a government... Behind our government Dick Cheney would be the tip of the spear of that thing if you read this Barton Gelman Biography of him his called the the angler and it's like that dude single-handedly architected the Iraq war based on like false intelligence and
American Alchemy
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He was a representative of a lot of oligarchic sort of corporate interests. And, you know, and then Halliburton gets the contract once we go kind of screw up Iraq and then he gets the contract. It's like there's something to that guy where you even read George W. Bush's book, Decision Points, and you're like.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
yeah your decisions locally are being made based on you know certain intelligence being given to you and those decisions actually don't seem extremely irrational at each moment and then it's like who's giving you the intel and it's fucking dick cheney and like there's some other guys like you know wolf wits and you know sort of cast of neocon characters but like cheney's at the heart of it yeah i mean he would make sense as a person at the top of the pyramid like like grushes
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yes. Yeah. Person at the top of the pyramid and maybe of a lineage. I'm about to do a piece on Henry Kissinger and UFOs.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. And I think there's some connections there. And it's like if you pick a modern Henry Kissinger, it would be Dick Cheney. You know, it's like this guy is the man behind the man.
American Alchemy
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Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals?
American Alchemy
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I think Hollywood has been engaging in soft UFO disclosure for 30 or 40 years through these CAA liaisons.
American Alchemy
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It's called now called disclosure. And I was talking to Chris Ramsey again, great YouTube channel, go follow it area 52. And he was like, what if a UFO is shown as part of that movie? Would that not be the best way to disclose? And like, I, I'm kind of, I'm on his side. Like maybe, maybe that happens.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Um, and then historically too, you've had, you know, uh, close encounters with the third kind, which involves Jacques Valet and Jalen Hynek. Jacques Valet is played as a character by Francois Truffaut. You see crates that say Lockheed and Northrop. Don't they say TRW? If they say that, then you're like, okay, they're talking about next level knowledge.
American Alchemy
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So I think they do say Skunk Works and because Close Encounters of the Third Kind was they do.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Well, let's look up, you know, at some point whether it's Lockheed.
American Alchemy
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OK, well, that's next level. Then, yeah, he knows a lot. And also on the Townsend Brown, who I'm sure discovered some interesting effects in the world of gravity. I'm sure of that. I feel very high conviction in that. And I just interviewed Carl Nell, who's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, where I'm saying again that this gravity technology got probably implemented in the B2 stealth bomber.
American Alchemy
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And that, so my guess is this is me talking would be like Lockheed and Northrop, but like, there's this other element of like department of energy, like who in the government does this roll up to? You hear stuff like, CIA's director of science and technology, you know, somebody like Glenn Gaffney would be involved.
American Alchemy
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And he's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. And he goes, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. When I ask him, are there, is there anything sort of useful or applicable in the UFO story?
American Alchemy
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Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, uh, like heretical technologies. So I'd invite people, uh, unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So there's more corroboration beyond that on, on the TT Brown stuff. Um, but where was I going with, what were you just saying? The, the TRW closer cutters of the third kind before that. Oh, okay. So Steven Spielberg, uh, executive produced back to the future. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And the, the, the, the subplot of the whole Thomas Townsend Brown story is that gravity affects time in general relativity, gravity and time are tightly coupled and they're related. And his, he talks about time travel constantly with his family.
American Alchemy
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Like that's something that's really, and if you think about it, if we were to ever engage in effective interstellar travel, it would involve space time metric engineering inherently. You can't get around that. Even with nuclear thermal propulsion, you get to the closest star system in 40,000 years. That's too biologically. That does not work. Right. So, He's super into time travel.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And then you have Back to the Future come out, which is a Steven Spielberg executive produced movie. The guy's name is Doc Brown, which everybody called Thomas Townsend Brown. His name is Emmett Brown, E-M-E-T-T Brown. Thomas Townsend Brown is in the name. He uses his flux capacitor. Thomas Townsend Brown's experiments are capacitor experiments.
American Alchemy
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And he goes back in time in 1985, which is the year Thomas Townsend Brown dies and To 1957, which is when I think his experiment was first experimentally proven around that time at the Bonson Labs. It's the time that physics sort of went astray in the wrong direction when I think the antigravity stuff went black.
American Alchemy
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And so it's just, I don't know, there's so much there that I think begets this like greater. And then E.T. even is extremely interesting. E.T. and the kid like lock it like. They have some sort of weird psionic connection. And you remember they're in the hospital together and ETs like heart rate is matching the kid's heart rate.
American Alchemy
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And you have all this stuff around the psionic connection that's now coming out. You also have, the consciousness connection there where the mother is walking around the kitchen and like these kids have taken, these kids see the ETs but the mother doesn't.
American Alchemy
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And like the ET is sort of like walking around the fridge and the mother doesn't see it because like her perceptive, she's closed off to these realities. So like I think Steven Spielberg definitely has been fed some really interesting UFO stuff over the years.
American Alchemy
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And back in the day, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was probably involved in this sort of stuff. But who's in charge from the government perspective now?
American Alchemy
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It's interesting to see these concepts were laid in Hollywood because— James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, and Christopher Nolan are definitely fed intense secret shit.
American Alchemy
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But even like where does the concept of Men in Black get to? Men in Black sounds quacky.
American Alchemy
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But if you talk to Richard Dolan, who's a super deep UFO researcher, men in black, they are this thing. They're in these suits, and they show up after UFO abduction experiences, UFO sightings, and they often take people's footage or swear them to secrecy. And he thinks, Dolan thinks, they're almost like the counterintel group of the aliens themselves. They erase your memory.
American Alchemy
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And so it's turned into this kind of jokey, funny movie with Will Smith. But like even that, like where is that derived to begin with?
American Alchemy
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And it's just so fascinating, you know?
American Alchemy
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So I would say the same thing. But like you meet with certain people like Whitley Strieber and other just experiencers. And like these guys seem to like have technology available to them. That's not available to the general public. And maybe that is just like, okay, so it's like Occam's razor. It's like NSA or something, but it's weird technology. It's like,
American Alchemy
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implants that involve technological mediumship as Whitley Streep. I felt his implant in his ear. Yeah, I felt it. And it's the weirdest thing. And he says it moves with his own metabolism. I haven't verified that, but like, he ever thought about getting that cut out. He wants to get it cut out, but he says it moves every time. And, I felt the thing and it's not natural.
American Alchemy
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So unless he's totally grifting and putting the thing in his ear, even though he's not really like making that much money now off of UFOs. And it happened after he wrote communion and like, it's like, I don't know, man, the whole thing's so strange.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So that's come up for me and I've never brought that up, but how, yeah. Well, how do you think that the crown prince of Lichtenstein, cause I've heard some very interesting things about him. He seems like a really cool guy, but like really interested in the spooky science stuff.
American Alchemy
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Cuz that's that's I don't I I don't You know, I I don't know I probably shouldn't say because the conversations I've had earned confidence But he seems very interesting and interested in sort of secret science one more piece of possible corroboration of you know maybe being a combo as far as the men in black is I did speak to how put off recently and
American Alchemy
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And I was trying to figure out, I was like, is it, is it their program? You know, is it the NHI program or is it our program? And he goes, what if it's a joint space program? He goes, I might believe that maybe there's something. He did. Yeah. To me. Jeez. Yeah. So in how put off is I think as deep as it gets when it comes to sort of.
American Alchemy
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Outside the Overton window science, which is now being vindicated. I mean, he was just on a podcast in December, which is co-sponsored by National Science Foundation.
American Alchemy
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And like you had like pretty high up DOE people on the podcast and all these amazing people with pretty impressive credentials. The former head of revolutionary tech at Skunk Works are on this podcast. And he's talking about extended electrodynamics and gravity manipulation.
American Alchemy
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And I think it's clearly this sort of limited hangout where it's like, let's partially expose some things so that people can, you know, learn a little bit more about some science that we've been sitting on, especially, again, if China has caught up.
American Alchemy
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you can't just you know throw people off the trail constantly you need some limited surface area around it but yeah how put off did say and you know it's always i love how but it's always this sort of like you know tongue-in-cheek like half speculating so you never quite know commits to he never commits to something he always goes the whole zoo of possibilities and i was like a b c and d and then you have to decide i i
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You did a great interview with Eric Davis.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Von Neumann. Von Neumann, Jerome Hunsaker. Who else? Denzel Ward. Vandenberg.
American Alchemy
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Hoyt Vandenberg. Nathan Twining. Yeah, a bunch of head honchos in military intelligence science.
American Alchemy
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Well, there are people who... I think are pretty credible who talk about this, like these continuity of government programs. So the 5412 committee, you know, national security, you know, committee, you know, back in the fifties and sixties that turned into the 303 committee, which turned into the committee of 40.
American Alchemy
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Do you have anything to say about that as, as far as they're kind of, you know, interesting?
American Alchemy
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And even in the Wilson memo, you know, where they said, you know, the Wilson, of course.
American Alchemy
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2002 is this meeting between Eric Davis, who's, again, this Hal Puthoff protege, propulsions expert, and exotic physics expert. It's in the parking lot of EG&G, and he's meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of Joint Chiefs J2.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So he should have all exotic tech under his purview, and he's basically expressing extreme dissatisfaction that... you had these rogue groups working on purportedly UFOs who he met with and it's out of his jurisdiction. And in that document that I believe was found in the Edgar Mitchell estate in that document, uh, it says JA is a liar. And I think JA is John Alexander. Yeah.
American Alchemy
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Well, the sort of public-facing review group, you know, the all-domain anomalies, you know, anomalous research organization or office, or I always screw it up, Arrow.
American Alchemy
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So what do you think about these documents? Cause they're, they're popular view, like with those kind of old school, like UFO researchers, like Robert Hastings, you know, who wrote UFOs and nukes. is that this was passage material. So it was like meant to detect spies. It contained all sorts of falsities.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You're giving it to this film producer who's friends with all these UFO researchers, Jamie Chandera. And then I think other versions of the Majestic 12 were then doled out in packages to other UFO researchers.
American Alchemy
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You know, the main sort of outfit studying UFOs from a public, you know, perspective. The new director was a former director of the National Security Administration, the NSA, John Kozlowski. And so it does beg this question, you know, yeah, how much of this is... You know, I often think that the overrated elements of UFOs are just, just focused on like metamaterials. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And that was like a real meeting. And his diary came out after the majestic 12 documents, obviously had come out and they corroborated the information in the majestic 12 documents. So it's, Probably similar to the Lazar stuff where it's like some of the stuff is just true. And then maybe true and under a different name.
American Alchemy
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And maybe they were looking for spies and there was some passage material involved. But yeah, it is interesting.
American Alchemy
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Just, but if you were to simulate back then, if, uh, a UFO issue were a thing and we had exotic materials and we were in contact with, you know, an extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence, you would need our best and brightest on it. And if you look at that list of people, those would be the, those would be the people on it. Yeah. Vannevar Bush would be heading it up.
American Alchemy
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That's right. And then you have Gordon Gray, who was also on the Majestic. Don Menzel, who admitted, you know, he was super read in on Navy, CIA, a bunch of, you know, pretty classified info. and admitted as much, actually, to Kennedy, and Stanton Friedman actually writes about this, was sort of in charge of disinfo and debunking, which he was debunking a lot.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And there's this amazing Swedish astronomer, Beatrice Villareal, and she talks about Menzel having, like, deleted, like, all this astronomical information from, like, 1953 and onwards in... from the Harvard Observatory. And at the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time, you had Robert Sarbacher. He was working there.
American Alchemy
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And then the number, I think James Conant was the president of Harvard and he was like the number two guy, you know, the Manhattan Project at the time. So, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say, but it sort of makes sense. It's directionally correct.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb, who runs, I think, my favorite channel on YouTube that covers UFOs. Literally, the information density of your channel is second to none. It's drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts. I think any 15-second clip from any one of your videos could beget its own entire video. on various other channels that are kind of slower and less fast-paced.
American Alchemy
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The whole history is fascinating. I think maybe, you know, one of the tip of the spear frontier groups longitudinal timeline assessments of like, you know, all UFO oversight is this great article by Chris Sharp at the liberation times. Oh yeah. It's really interesting stuff. And there's some connections you've made between Woods hole and like, you know, some of the, you know, yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
You know, that's like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. And then actually it's this way deeper sort of thing around like human, like signal, like the fact that we're like probably getting downloads and stuff. And actually there's a book called above black by a guy named Dan Sherman. And he goes, he's like sort of recruited into this like nondescript, you know, NSA building. And I've heard some from an,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And, and Randy Anderson story. But I also just want to touch on, you know, he talks about how it was the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which was before the National Security Act, before the CIA was formed. They were sort of in charge of the initial UFO custody. And I think we have a decent map of actually what occurred.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So David Grush says that there's this magenta crash in Lombardy in Italy in 1933. Exactly. I've now made the connection through some people, this woman, Pippa Malmgren, who's amazing. She's really interested in the UFO thing, but she was actually special assistant to George W. Bush. She made it clear to me that James Jesus Angleton was the U.S. like OSS person involved in Italy at the time.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And so rumors are that you have this magenta crash and then Mussolini goes to Hitler and says, is this yours to the Nazis? Right. And then they end up working together on it. And so this magenta crash ends up.
American Alchemy
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probably being worked on by the Nazis, which explains these, like, Die Glocke, you know, rumors, and Kammlerstab, and sort of modern Czechoslovakia and Poland, where they're working on these flying saucers. You have tons of reports around this, from Rudolf Schreiber, Richard Mita, a bunch of guys at the time.
American Alchemy
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Along with Paul Mellon and Alan Dulles, there's a story of Paul Mellon kind of spilling the beans to his grandson, who's alive now, John Warner IV, about standing over a UFO that can employ exotic flight principles in modern-day Czechoslovakia. Wow. And so you kind of can come up with this thread of like the Lombardi magenta crash happens. It goes to the Nazis.
American Alchemy
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Maybe there's some custody where the Vatican is involved as well.
American Alchemy
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I've heard that from Grush. And then it goes over to the U.S. and then it's worked on at Wright Airfield. And you have all these Operation Overcast paperclip Nazi scientists who then... That's part of the rush to get the Nazi scientists, is to get the ones who are this deep on really exotic flight principles and UFO stuff.
American Alchemy
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We now know Hans Kammler himself, who's in charge of the blackest of the black Wunderwaffe programs for the Nazis, made his way to the US. And so you kind of have this... somewhat consistent narrative of like what happened with this early UFO crash and how the U S started to get involved with this stuff.
American Alchemy
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And all the guys who were involved in the early Marshall plan and tech transfer programs, Kissinger was an army counter Intel guy who is doing tech retrieval at the time.
American Alchemy
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Yeah. And apparently Marconi's grandson might be like on the verge of saying something. You have this Pinotti, this Italian UFO researcher who's like really on that trail.
American Alchemy
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an extremely credible source high up in government where if i were to give you this person's title it's just completely beyond reproach saying that that program probably existed he so he's recruited to this like nsa you know nondescript building and basically told to do all sorts of weird mind matter experiments like collapse a sine wave he's given these like binaural beats and then like
American Alchemy
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Well, there's a scientific principle called the Kiwanda effect and it involves stabilizing basically a saucer like craft. And there's a pat, this guy's Henry Kiwanda was this guy's Romanian scientist. He has a patent on this from 1936 and, And I think at points he was in Vichy, France, but he basically was forced to work under the Nazis.
American Alchemy
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And then he was taken to Wright Patterson to work on Project Y, which was an extension of the Avrocar project, which is trying to get flying saucers to work. And so and then William Steinman connects this with Thomas Townsend Brown and his gravity experiments where.
American Alchemy
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They were coordinating with Thomas Townsend Brown and wanted to see if the gravity stuff worked so they could incorporate it into these saucers or whatever that they had.
American Alchemy
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Well, that's the Lazar rumor as well, which is that like Russians were at Area 51 too. And there was sort of this co-space program. And that was always, there's, you know, SALT. This is even public. This is open source. In the SALT 1 negotiations, I think it was 1971 treaty, we're talking about coordinating with the Russians together.
American Alchemy
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On the UFO question, because we were worried that they'd mistake it for American acts of aggression. That's what Kennedy probably wanted to do as well. So maybe there is some sort of international space program around the UFO thing. I don't know.
American Alchemy
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It feels hard for me to believe that the surface-level geopolitics that we see is totally fake. I do think tensions are at an all-time high with China. But it is interesting. I think in the Lazar account, it's like the Russians started to get kicked out as tensions rose around the development of these ARVs and stuff. It brings up it harkens back to this Carl Nell quote.
American Alchemy
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You know, Carl Nell, who was part of the UAP task force with David Grush, was also deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and I believe was stationed at Wright-Patterson Airfield.
American Alchemy
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Army Futures Command. And he says there's this sub Rosa secret conflict arms race going on between us and other countries. It's been going on for decades.
American Alchemy
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Well, if you think about what the Manhattan Project was, it was all about payload potency, magnitude. And it's like, how can you create a bigger bomb? And then at a certain point when you're at the Tsar bomb level or whatever, you're at, you know, 80 megatons plus, it doesn't matter. That's too big for any target. You have tons of Tsar bombs. It's like, it's, you know, game over for the world.
American Alchemy
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At that point, it becomes the second Manhattan project becomes about payload delivery. And it becomes like, who can deliver this payload faster and stealthier? And, you know, it was ICBMs and then it was stealth fighters and, you know, and so it's, that's, it's a scary world. And I almost don't even love,
American Alchemy
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basically he's used as like a sort of, you know, human antenna for like alien signals. And it's part of this thing he calls project preserved destiny. And he says that he's genetically been manipulated in the womb and more and more. I interviewed yesterday, a psionic asset who was recruited through the gate program through these gifted student programs or whatever.
American Alchemy
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talking about UFOs in this context, because I think it's the sacred ontological metaphysical thing, which should really drive people weapons.
American Alchemy
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But I do think that that, that might be a reality driving some of this stuff.
American Alchemy
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Given that, that this technology is probably a forcing function for extreme good or extreme evil. Think about nuclear fusion. It could destroy the world, or it could save the world.
American Alchemy
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Do you believe, because that is part of the Stephen Greer narrative, the lost century. I'm not convinced that, I believe that we displayed some local effects around over unity, free energy, lower energy, nuclear reaction, you know, whatever. But the idea that we have scalable free energy that we're hiding in black compartments feels hard for me to believe, but I'm open. What do you think?
American Alchemy
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I can't say I'm a high conviction in any direction there. But how do you like what's the thrust or what's the motivation for your research? Is it just like truth seeking or how do you have a hope for how this sort of UFO thing ends? Because it seems like we've crossed a Rubicon of late as far as people's acceptance.
American Alchemy
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And exploitation of humans? Yeah.
American Alchemy
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It's definitely bad. Yeah, it's not cool. And then the idea, too, where I don't feel like I have probably the most concrete and good orientation towards this. And it's something I struggle with because it's like you cover some of this stuff and it just leads you into dark territory. Yeah. And it leads you into the territory of like. Yeah. I want people to know that this stuff is real.
American Alchemy
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And so more, I think more and more is coming out of the woodwork around like kids and gifted people and, like, clairvoyance being approached at a very young age for downloads and signals that they're getting. And this guy named Andre Puharich, who... I believe he wrote a book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
American Alchemy
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That reality is more expanded than we realize. But the only way to do that is to uncover some pretty gnarly, messed up truths around like how this stuff has become operationalized.
American Alchemy
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And the government's orientation towards this is how can this confer a tactical advantage for us? And I think the orientation should be, how can this beget more meaning for people and civil side infrastructure updates? And then great, if there are derivative technologies that allow us to protect the free world in a more effective way, of course, they should be funneled to like the right thing.
American Alchemy
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But it feels like the impetus, like the sole impetus is weaponization of this stuff. Yeah. And I don't think that ends well if there's an intelligence on the other side of it, which I think there is. I don't think that ends well for us. If that continues to be our orientation towards this topic, we're dealing with forces way greater than us.
American Alchemy
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And I don't think it's a coincidence that OSAP and a lot of these programs, the people come out and they're kind of haunted. They have these hitchhiker effects. I think it's sort of, you know, the two sort of mantras in UFO research world are like, seek and you shall find and fuck around and find out.
American Alchemy
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Stares right back. And it's a mirror of what you feel. And people, the description of the sphere often when people, you know, are, are, are looked, you know, they're looking for the psionic connection between less participant and these materials. They're often what's inside of them gets excavated and mirrored in this technology. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
It is a very frightening world. I just retweeted Scott Adams, you know, the Dilbert creator. And he said, you know, wherever there is complexity, there is fraud. And I just thought that was so applicable to the UFO question.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
There is an absurd amount of complexity to the point where disclosure is taking a quantum leap around this Jake Barber story and some of the other stories and like mainstream media could not give less of a shit. They don't understand. It was horrible timing around the inauguration, like peak news mania. And then that's when you release this thing that's beyond the pale for most people.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And you're, you're, you're piecemealing in psionics and all these other things. And that, that's, And I love Ross Coulter. I think he's an amazing investigative reporter. And I think Jake is beyond reproach as well. So it's not a knock on either of them. It's a knock on the timing and maybe News Nation's editing team.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And he had these space kids back in the day where he'd recruit all these kids to upstate New York. And he had this roundtable institute in Maine. And the space kids were meant to basically get downloads. And Star Trek came from one of these downloads. Gene Roddenberry was inspired by this woman named... Phyllis Schleman, I don't know, Phyllis something. And that sort of inspired all of Star Trek.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That was not good. And then everybody started. It started to be vindicated when Ross did this amazing follow up.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
They couldn't care less. And it's wild to see realities just diverge so starkly where it's like UFO world is on another planet, literally.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. Dude, that guy's like motivated by the right stuff. Yeah. He's pieced together so much. Yeah. And he's been treated like shit.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Hundreds of documents, I think maybe 1,000 pages plus to the IC Inspector General, Thomas Monheim, who's now out, and they haven't done anything about it.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And unless you can look at those documents, and all we have is that Thomas Monheim said it was urgent and credible. And nobody has debunked anything in those documents. So unless you can debunk stuff in those documents, then you need to take action on what this guy is saying. It's absurd.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Where Ken Klipstein... Basically, Klippenstein... he admitted to, uh, uh, cigar and crystal, uh, crystal and cigar, the, um, the breaking points, you know, guys, he admitted that like the DOD and IC like tipped him off on the story basically. Yeah. So it's, it's just crazy. Like, uh, and then, uh, the USA ID we now know is funding the intercept.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I don't know how much of that specifically made its way to Ken Klippenstein, but like, And the dude has all these like secret sources from the USAID. So he's like, he's a bad faith actor.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Absolutely. And I made a tweet to that effect and I got threatened. Somebody threatened to sue me and I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to amplify them. They're really bad actors. And they've also questioned the service records of, you know, Randy Anderson and Jake Barber, which is just, I think, disgusting, to be honest. Like, don't go after that, you know?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
These guys just... And we have one of them specifically has a clearance and it's like, I don't know what he's up to. I don't know if he's about, I don't know if he's actually actually acting like he wants to be a paid disinfo agent, but he hasn't gotten the contract yet. And he's actually just like this small time guy.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah, totally. And they don't listen to any of the details and their priors are entirely off because they take nothing seriously. So their Occam's razor is it's all mass hysteria, which if you look at the levels of government that are now saying that this is real, your Occam's razor is like a cabal controlling all these people.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
It's the greatest mass hysteria in the history of... It's the best PSYOP in the world by standard deviations, if that's your claim, which is itself a fantastical null hypothesis. So these people are... They suck, honestly.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
No, it's not at all. If anything, intelligence community tactic to kind of repress this stuff has been flood the zone. There's too much snake oil to sift through for the average person. I think it moved from secrecy under Blue Book in the 50s and 60s and then the 80s at some point around the Majestic 12 stuff
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And EG&G, I think, actually picked up a lot of the work there. And so it's super fascinating.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
this stuff started to get promoted, but with all sorts of quackery and you have air force office of special investigations agent and other counterintel people like Rick Doty being like, there are six alien being in like John Lear saying, you know, there's a soul catcher on the moon.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. So that it's just, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to, cause I think, um, earnest debate is always good. And Mick West, people say he's like a paid asset or whatever. I, you know, I enjoyed like having him on to debate Merrick and they were debated all the top UFO videos. And I thought that was like fun and good.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And he doesn't seem like, you know, he's like, I want more light shine shown on this. I think he could be a little more like earnestly open to some of this stuff. But like some of these other guys are just, just like bad vibes. And like, it's totally, it's all ad hominem and it's, it's, uh, you know, they threaten lawfare and stuff and it's whack. It's like, it's, I hope you, uh,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I don't know, just introspect a little bit. Again, read between the lines, see if this applies to you. Because I don't want to mention anybody, but it's like, just think about what you're doing. Are you really on the right side of history?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Well, go watch your channel too, UAP Gerb, because it's a, like I said, it's literally a fire hose. It's a cannon of like absurd amounts of information to the point where you can't just dismiss it all. There's something going on. Even if that something is slightly adjacent to the consensus truth, we all think on aliens, UFOs, maybe the rest of the iceberg doesn't look like the tip of the iceberg.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That's fine. I don't think anybody on the pro UFO side is dogmatic about that. I think it's just, this stuff is worthy of investigation, which clear,
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah, that he engaged in protocols to basically download all sorts of information. And he, I believe, started a biotech company called Vivex Biotech and sold it for 88 million bucks or something crazy like that. And he claims that a lot of that was derived from downloads that he got. And I spoke to him for a very brief period of time over the phone once. He sort of disappeared on me after that.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Yeah. No, they're an enormous amount. And anybody in the government capacity looking at this sort of, you know, earnestly always comes to the same conclusion, which is there's something probably here.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
Clearly. Well, Sammy, UAP group, this has been an absolute honor. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? I mean, there are probably... A hundred other things you could talk about.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
We didn't even get to that story of the whistleblower who talked about Was it an egg shaped craft like off on the Azores, like off of Portugal? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
That C one thirties are often transport or what do you mean? Good research.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
I love it, man. Well, go subscribe to UAP Gerb. Check out. You're doing a follow up with Randy Anderson. It'll probably be out or around out about when we put this out. And I know you're going to do an amazing job there. And you're not only going to talk about, you know, talk to him, corroborate his story, but also or try to stress test it, you know, whatever.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
But also go really deep into, you know, the specific contractor SAIC, which was likely involved in this sort of, you know, psychotronic or psionic research. So, yeah, it's been an honor, Sammy. Really appreciate you stopping by, man.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
And, you know, his whole thing was like, you know, don't use your phone and tap in. And like, you know, it all felt like, on the one hand cliche, but maybe actually really fundamental, important advice as far as, you know, being able to gain access to, you know, better, better stuff or whatever from, I don't know, the whole thing's really trippy.
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
In Corso's testimony... Which, by the way, we know that existed. Correct, yeah. The Interplanetary Phenomena Unit, we know that that existed, which is crazy. We knew that a group named that existed between, what, 4750 or something?
American Alchemy
The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World
So those are disputed. But the Steinman thing, I believe Steinman contacted somebody in the federal government to gain more access. And they basically said the records had been deleted.