Glennon Doyle
Appearances
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
We just got this package from Symbiotica and I'm so excited. I've used their liposomal glutathione and the vitamin C and they're my favorite products by far. The liposomal form gets it into your system and actually gets it to the places that you need it to be. So that especially during the winter times and the colds and all the things, I just need my system and my immune system to be like strong.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
It's so complicated because your livelihood depends on it in some ways. How do you deal with that?
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
But I think that that's a really important thing to say for those that are listening, because you don't have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of it. That's really courageous to know I don't like this, but I've gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about, and I'm going to keep going because maybe there will be a third thing.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
This episode is brought to you by Ring Cameras and Doorbells. A lot happens while you're away from home. That's why Ring makes it easy to check in from anywhere. Whether you're saying hi to an unexpected guest, making sure those packages are safe, or keeping your pets company, my favorite, while you're out grabbing groceries. It's all a few taps away, right from your phone. Be there with Ring.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
Explore cameras, doorbells, alarm kits, and more right now at ring.com.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
I mean, also, it's just the World Cup. The Grammys of the soccer. The World Cup is, it's a standalone event. This is what everything else compares itself to.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
I have a quick follow up. Who decides, because you say they let us do this, somebody chose to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it? You say let go, let God, but like somebody in that role in the TV world, it's an important role because you said they got it right. Who is that person?
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
So many things in our lives change, but not our love for Viore clothing. I love this ad. We're so glad that they continue to support the show. It's true. Abby is obsessed with Viore. I am a little bit too. Do you think you have a favorite item? They're t-shirts. They never get less soft.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
They're just perfect for everything, for going to dinner, for actively going for a walk, for working out, whatever you want to do. They're the best.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
It's everything. I mean, I love them, but it's not easy to find clothes that look sleek and feel comfortable. I mean, I can use them everywhere and anywhere I go. Viore is an investment in your happiness. I promise you. For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase, plus free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing online. On the planet at Viori.com slash hard things. That's V-U-O-R-I dot com slash hard things. You won't be sorry. When you hear a good idea, it's natural to do a double take.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
and capable of going outside and not worrying about getting sick. And that's what Symbiotica is giving me. It's giving me for real belief in my body.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
That's what you might do when you hear Discover will automatically double the cash back you've earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Wait, what? Yep. Double the cash back is something so good, you might do a triple take. It pays to discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
That is totally me. If somebody laughs at a single joke, I'm like, we're besties.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
I know, babe. And you have a barrier to entry that is so fucking long. That's why I asked, Sam. Okay, I'm trying to learn this. No, I think it's so beautiful because I can connect with somebody on one thing, and in a lot of ways, I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I'm seeing that I'm like, well... I like them in this way.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
And what she just said, though, is so profound about consider the stores like that is actually really important. We take everybody's word at face value. It's like. oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes and you're like, who wrote that? And I'm like, I don't know. We're all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read. Like, so I love that.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
High quality, holistic wellness, right at your fingertips. Be present and feel your best for life's most memorable moments. Go to symbiotica.com slash Glennon for 20% off your order plus free shipping today. That's symbiotica.com slash glennon for 20% off your order plus free shipping.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
It's like the stereotyping of comedians in the world, right? Like how so many comedians have this... like low level rage running underneath all of their jokes. Like to me, it's their way of coping. But I also wonder for you, how are you actually like dealing with that stuff that's actually underneath it? Like what are the things that you're doing? That's good.
Up First from NPR
Time to Leave
Yeah. Cause you got to look at it. You got to present it. You got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments. And even if they're private. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
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We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. ¶¶
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
The holidays are almost here. Between traveling, hosting family, and finding the perfect gift, it's such an exciting, busy, and yes, sometimes stressful time. Luckily, I've teamed up with Ring, and it helped me stay connected to home for all the merry moments, even when I'm on the go. With Ring, you've got your whole home covered.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Their video doorbells alert me when gifts arrive, and I can even chat with delivery people to let them know where to leave the package. Ugh, it's the best. The indoor cam, well, it's a game changer. So easy to set up. I use it to check in on my pets while I'm away. And when I want privacy, I just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and mic.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Wherever the holidays take you, Ring makes sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring video doorbells, cams, and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. It's the best. Go get it, folks.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. Finding the right therapist can be hard. I know this from experience. Some of the challenges include sifting through hundreds of options or no options at all, not being able to understand therapy approaches, specializations, degrees, or being assigned a therapist without really getting to test the waters. But it's easier to get started with Alma.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Because with Alma, you can browse the directory without creating an account or sharing payment information. I actually really appreciate that. You can filter your search by your needs and preferences, such as anxiety, relationships, gender, or more. Over 95% of therapists at Alma accept insurance, including Aetna, Cigna, UnitedHealthcare, and many others.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And you can book a free consultation call, which I also really appreciate, with any therapist you're interested in seeing. These 15-minute calls give you a chance to see if they're a good fit for you so you can find somebody you really click with. Alma can help you find the right therapist for you, not just anyone.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Visit helloalma.com slash hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's helloalma.com slash hardthings.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So we have people that are listening to this right now and are confused because it's not necessarily like the easiest thing to understand, especially when you're being gaslighted. How do you know that you are in a gaslighting relationship and what are the signs and red flags for folks listening to look for?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I know. I love you so much for saying that you were studying it and then you didn't even know it was happening to you because that is the story of my damn life. So thank you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are talking about something that the world seems to finally be talking about, which is gas lighting. Today we have one of the world's experts on gaslighting. She actually coined the term gaslight effect. Her name is Dr. Robin Stern.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Because it's not about the thing. It's the gaslightees becoming more invested in changing the gaslighter's perception of them. That's right. It's not even about the problem anymore. It's about, no, no, no, I don't think I'm that way. And you must agree with me, which you call the urge to merge. So can you talk to us about how the urge to merge gets us into the gaslight tango?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And she's going to talk to us today about what gaslighting is, what it isn't, who is most susceptible to gaslighting, and how we can get ourselves out of gaslighting relationships and make ourselves gaslight resistant. I cannot wait for this conversation. I really think that all of my 40s and likely much of my 50s will be about un-gaslighting myself and learning to become gaslight resistant.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So it's the urge to merge a single perspective. It's to merge into a single perspective. We must have this one perspective.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Okay, so how does that look in the scenario in which my sister is at a party and she comes back after the party with her ex-boyfriend and her ex-boyfriend says, you were flirting. I saw you flirting. And if she's in her gaslighting phase, she says what, sister?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And then how does that change your behavior at the party the next time? Oh, you do.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. Yeah. You say in your work that gaslighting is always the creation of two people. The gaslighter who sows confusion and doubt and a gaslightee who is willing to doubt their own perceptions to keep the relationship going. Okay. Let's talk about that because one of the things that makes me uncomfortable with that definition is
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Is that for me, I feel like I learned how to be a gaslightee as a child, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And by the way, I think a lot of old parenting was just gaslighting. Like parents telling you, what's happening is not what you think is happening. Mommy's not tired. Mommy's not angry. Daddy's not like just all. I think parenting could be constant gaslighting. But I feel like as a child, I was gaslighted plenty. but I didn't have the power to leave.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's the refrain, the thesis statement of Untamed was, I'm not crazy, I'm a goddamn cheetah because I think a lot about growing up as a woman is about... rejecting the idea that there was ever anything wrong with you. And so this topic, I just find absolutely fascinating. It's what I'm doing in my everyday life and I can't wait to get some expert. Advice from Dr. Robin Stern.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So this is not then applying to kids because kids can't walk in and out.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I'm so amazed by this whole, concept because I don't feel like I've ever truly been in a relationship until now where I wasn't actively being gaslighted. I think it's the work of our lives to believe that we have a self that there's no right or wrong, that is experiencing life in a certain way.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I mean, I just had a conversation with my therapist this week where I was, I'm struggling in this one relationship and I'm scared to tell the person that this thing they're doing is bothering me and this thing they're doing is bothering me. And my therapist said, Glennon, if 10 other people think that person's behavior is perfect, but it's bothering you, you get to say it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And to me, I'm just thinking, but what if I'm too sensitive? What if, why is what I'm saying right and hers wrong? Like what gives me the right to even say anything? I just think this is like varsity level stuff.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Running a small business isn't easy. And when it comes to hiring people, it can often feel like a full-time job in and of itself. As a business owner, I know firsthand how crucial it is to find not just the right skills, but the right fit for your team's culture. That's why for me, the go-to resource has always been LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn isn't just another job board.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
It connects you with professionals you won't find anywhere else, sometimes even those who aren't actively looking but would be open to the right opportunity. In fact, 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other major job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're missing out on the best candidates. What I love about LinkedIn Jobs is how fast it works.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
86% of small businesses get a qualified candidate within 24 hours. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash hard things. That's linkedin.com slash hard things to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
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We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I start using this stuff and it is actually a damn delight. All of these different flavors. Like why did toothpaste decide it has to only be one flavor? Boca's secret ingredient is nano hydroxyapatite. NHA for short. It was first used by NASA astronauts in space to help rebuild their teeth, and now it's in Boca's toothpaste to restore yours.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Dr. Robin Stern is the co-founder and associate director for the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and an associate research scientist at the Child Study Center at Yale. She is a licensed psychoanalyst with 30 years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families. She is the author of the Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide, Your Personal Journey Toward Healing from Emotional Abuse.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
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We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
With this unified business management suite, you gain a single source of truth that provides the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. Imagine having real-time insights and forecasting at your fingertips, allowing you to peer into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can focus more on what's next instead of looking backward.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. So the moment is you're so paranoid. That's right. It's the moment where the thing jumps from the issue straight to the other person's character.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And the whole purpose for the gaslighter is to... Retain power and control.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
By destabilizing the gaslightee.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And are we more susceptible to gaslighting within romantic relationships because we're so isolated in them? Like I- with friendships, we don't feel a disloyalty by going outside of the friendship and saying, hold on, can I run this by you? Because she just did this and I feel like weird about this. But in our marriages, we've created this culture where we feel disloyal discussing.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
When you feel disloyal discussing anything, you are susceptible to being in this weird little cult.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Do you think it's like impossible in relationships to not have moments of being gaslighted or being the gaslighter? Because it feels like when I was reading your book, I just kept thinking, oh, my gosh, how many times I was gaslighted or also, which is more scary for me to think about, is how many times I've been the gaslighter. And I haven't I didn't know I was doing it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I felt that when I was reading, I was like, oh, I've done this. I've done this with Abby even, where she's come to me with a fear about our relationship that has cut so deep for me and made me so scared about who I was that I have then created a case for why that's not the case. And then she will say, I can't win this. I'm just, I'm hurt.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Well, I'm so grateful to you. I know you use he and she because in your practice, you have seen mostly men gaslighting and women as gaslightees, which is very interesting, of course, because women are conditioned to be more empathic. It's not like we're all born gaslighters or gaslightees. We are conditioned, but Abby and I are married and lesbians be gaslighting the shit out of each other. Okay.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Mm-hmm. One of the things that I took so much that hit me in the heart was when you talk about how in a gaslighting relationship, whether it's with a romantic partner or your mother, what happens is you become obsessed with the argument about this relationship is whether I am bad with money or good with money. My point here is, am I bad or good with money? Am I bad or good? Am I bad or good?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Instead of saying, do I feel bad or good in this? do I feel bad? I don't like this regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. I don't like how this feels. So I'm out.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I do wonder if I were not in a gaslighting tango with the world. Would my thesis statement of untamed have been, I'm not crazy, I'm a goddamn cheetah. That's what it was. Or would the next phase be, okay, if you think I'm crazy- Regardless of whether what you think, I'm a goddamn cheetah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
No longer arguing. The point is not whether I'm crazy or not. The point is I have an inside that has feelings and experiences. And I am going to create my life. You have a visualization in the book that moved me so much where you just close your eyes and you imagine that everyone around you is a safe person that you only allow people in that make you feel good.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And it was so beautiful in terms of like, that's actually how we get to live. No matter if we're right or wrong about our reactions to people, no matter if we're good or bad, we get to decide who feels good and warm to us without justification.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Most of our friends are two women in couples. Gaslighting abounds.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Power struggle in relationships.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. An important question. I just think over and over again that is in your work is it's not about being a perfect person. The point is not whether he's right or you're right, but whether or not you want to live like this and feel like this. That's right. the second you stop deciding who's right, who's wrong. And if you switch to, do I want to live like this and feel like this? Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
It seems to me that the world has just recently caught up to the work that you've been doing for a very, very long time about gaslighting because you actually coined the term gaslighting effect. That was a long time ago, and now it's just so in the zeitgeist. We're catching up to you. So can you start by explaining to us what the origin of the word gaslighting is? Sure.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I know that so much of this is about abusive relationships and romantic situations, but on some level, I just feel like women in general are in gaslighting relationships and the gaslighter is the world. That is truly like, in my bones, how I feel that so much is, you know, why are you angry? Why are you, why are you tired? Why are you controlling?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Why as a, you know, and I feel responsible to the pod squad right now to say to you that Robin, if there were a collection of sensitive human beings, like if This is the convention. You're at it. The pod squad is a convention of sensitive human beings on the planet. And that is true. And sensitivity is a badge of honor.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And also, if you have been telling yourself that you're just sensitive your entire life, labeling yourself as oversensitive is also a really good way for the rest of the world to get off the hook for their behavior. Yeah. I recently said to a therapist, she said, well, let's not forget that you're sensitive. And I said, but also like, is that the whole truth?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Is the narrative of my life that I'm sensitive or just that I noticed some bad shit? I think two things can be true at once. We can be sensitive human beings and that can be a,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's right. Thank you, Robin. I feel very un-gaslighted by you. You're wonderful. I think that your work is the work of our lives as women. Thank you. I really appreciate it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Jackie! We love you, Jackie. Thank you for listening. PodSquad, this week, please just remember that you are real. Your feelings are real. The point is not, do they have a point? The point is, do I like the way this feels?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And no need to present a case. That's it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hard things. netsuite.com slash hard things. Hello, ladies, germs, and everybody out there. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
What's interesting to me about this is that you mentioned too in your work that women can have the double shame. We're being gaslighted, but then we feel double shame that we're supposed to be strong people and how are we being gaslighted? But what's interesting to me is that very strong women are often the people who are gaslighted.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You even point out in your work that it can be a reaction to the idea that, oh, wait, I'm with a woman and her power is greater than mine. And so I'm going to correct it. Mm-hmm. By putting her in her place, throwing her off balance. Like Amanda, when I think about that relationship, you were in terms of in high school, more powerful than that guy was in terms of social standing.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And often in marriages, when a woman is making more money or when a woman is stepping out of line in terms of gender expectations, that's when the gaslighting comes. So it's important not to feel shame about having been gaslighted.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Robin, I have a question about your own personal experience with gaslighting. Would you mind sharing some of that with us? Sure.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. Finding the right therapist can be hard. I know this from experience. Some of the challenges include sifting through hundreds of options or no options at all, not being able to understand therapy approaches, specializations, degrees, or being assigned a therapist without really getting to test the waters. But it's easier to get started with Alma.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Because with Alma, you can browse the directory without creating an account or sharing payment information. I actually really appreciate that. You can filter your search by your needs and preferences, such as anxiety, relationships, gender, or more. Over 95% of therapists at Alma accept insurance, including Aetna, Cigna, UnitedHealthcare, and many others.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And you can book a free consultation call, which I also really appreciate, with any therapist you're interested in seeing. These 15-minute calls give you a chance to see if they're a good fit for you so you can find somebody you really click with. Alma can help you find the right therapist for you, not just anyone.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Visit helloalma.com slash hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's helloalma.com slash hardthings. Isn't it the healing that you did that allows you now to see your mother just as someone who wasn't healed? Yes. I always think of like the work we do as a baton that we pass on to our kids, but it's not. It's backwards and forwards. Right? It's like to our kids.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And I see it, what you're seeing, that we give it backwards to generations before us. Because your healing allowed you to not think, I'm a bad, unlovable person. Your healing allowed you to look at your mom and say, oh, she was just not healed. It's a gift that you were able to give backwards.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We have Alex L. with us today. Alex L., who is helping heal the world, but who has her work cut out for her today with the three of us. I can't wait.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And you're flipping it because I feel like we're always told as women, if you heal your community, if you serve your community, that is self-care. That's your value. You will, you'll feel better. Just keep doing it. Healing your community, you're doing everything for your partner, your family. That's good enough for you. Women, you'll feel fulfilled. Trickle down healing.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It's trickle down healing. They're trying to sell us trickle down healing. But you're saying the opposite because you care just as much about community care as anybody. But you're saying heal thyself and that heals your community, not heal your community and that will heal you. Am I saying that right?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
We call it parental fragility. It's like white fragility, but it's like the parents who are like, I care so much that I was a good parent that I can't hear that I wasn't a good parent. How do you heal?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
This is going to be a six-hour podcast. Yes. Settle in, everybody. Settle the hell in. Alex L., who I just freaking adore, is an author, certified breathwork coach, podcast host, and restorative writing teacher. Alex's writing came into her life by way of therapy. and the exploration of healing through journaling and mindfulness. Her most recent book, How We Heal So Beautiful, is available now.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
So you believe that the wound does not have to be healed by the person who did the wounding. That you can be healed separate from the person who hurt you.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
That's why all the crap. Because we're looking forwards and backwards. We're like, I love you so much. Here's what I want for you. Wait, why the hell didn't I get that? And that's why it pisses you off when your mom calls and asks you 7 million questions about your kid. Because you're like, wait a minute. Yeah. What is healing, Alex? Your definition of healing.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Like, what are we doing when we're healing? Why do we need it? What is it? How do we know we need it?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And maybe there's no, like, just, it's an exploration, you know? Like, what do you think of when I ask you those questions?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
So if you are self-advocating, which I'm obsessed with that response, that means you have to have a self to advocate for. So there has to be a prerequisite to healing. Which is who am I and what do I need and why am I hurting? Which is the self-awareness. What am I not getting that I need?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, Alex. Thank you for being here.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
That's gorgeous because we also think of healing as it has to be so damn traumatic. Right. But I love what you're saying, which is like, actually, can we just sometimes return to our damn aliveness? I think the reason why it's so confusing and hard to to grip. It's like slippery is because it's actually quite revolutionary.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
This insistence that there is a self that we women have a self that you as a black woman are like, no, myself and my healing is as important as all of this, the world I'm supposed to caretake.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I want to start, Alex, with this idea, which is I believed that the older I got, the more healed I would be. And the freer and bolder and badass and authentic, I just thought it was like a cumulative effort. And the further I got from being born, the further I would get from all of my problems. And what I have truly experienced over the past, really just five years, I'm 46 now, so in my 40s,
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It feels like you're not supposed to have it. They're going to get struck down.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Whoa, the Energizer bunny's got so much power. Wait, he's powered up all the toys. I think that means we're done for the year.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Is healing, because what you're saying reminds me of something we talked about on a recent pod, I think with Chani Nicholas. Sometimes the rules that kept us safe as kids We have to break those rules as adults to get free, right? So as you're going into an easeful, peaceful family and saying, I'm not worthy of this, this isn't right. That's self-protection, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
That's something you would have had to say as a kid because you had to believe you weren't worthy or you would have felt rejection all the time. You had to make, kids have to make a reason for what they're experiencing. So was that the little Alex L defending yourself against what would inevitably be disappointment? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because that's what I wonder about healing for me.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Is it just a constant replacement of wrong thinking? Like we were taught a certain way to survive in our little ecosystems. And then later that system got bigger and bigger and bigger, and we were exposed to different ideas and rules. And maybe the little rules in our teeny ecosystem aren't necessary and aren't working for us anymore in the bigger world.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It feels to me like it's a constant thought replacement to make narrow rules wider and bigger and freer?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Is Alex, I am closer to my childhood traumas and crap than I have ever been. Mm-hmm. Which to me felt like a bit of a failure. But then I read, you say that the older you got, the more your childhood wounds surfaced. Mm-hmm. Is that true? Or were you just saying that? Because I need to know. And my follow-up question is, what the hell? Yeah. Okay.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I think one of my favorite things about yoga is my instructor who always says, okay, let's see what we're working with today. It's not like, who are you? And all of your, I'm like, I don't know. But today I'm kind of an asshole. It's like having a meeting with yourself. So you know what you're bringing to the world that day, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Maybe that's why we don't ever know what to say when people say, how are you? How are you? How are you? If you haven't, if you don't know. So everything becomes a performance.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
He's ready. I want to get to the hows of how you do this. Cause you actually have, you have the little micro check-ins, but you also have some practices, breathing, walking and writing. Can you talk to us about those three things? Breathing is so confusing to me, but I have had two of the most transformational experiences of my life when someone has made me breathe weird for an hour.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Something about that walking. And PodSquad, are you hearing this? I only trust healing that is back to the basics. What you're saying, breath. Walking, writing, all things that don't cost any money. There's an entire industry out there that will swear to you that you need all of these things to heal. And really it comes back. I mean, the breath, it's like, that's God. Breath is God.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
You said you're inspired. Those words, S-P-I-R, it's all breath. It's all God. It's all spirit, spirit, Holy Spirit. It's the thing that we cannot be separated from. The thing that will always be with us, unless we cut ourselves off from it, is breath. It's what takes us through our entire life. Why is it the walking? Like, what is it about walking? Walking helps me so much.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And the more I talk to people who are doing... creative grounding work, they always bring up the walking. What is it?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
You know, I, Alex, I sucked my thumb until fifth grade and I had a blankie until college. Somebody stole it from me in college. It's a very upsetting story. But I think about when I quit sucking my thumb is when I became bulimic. I'm not saying they're totally tied, but why are some strategies of self-soothing acceptable and some aren't?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Because the way I feel is like we're all self-soothing, but we develop these things. Like every time someone's a judgmental asshole, they're self-soothing. Like they can't handle the vulnerability of the moment or the jealousy or the whatever. Assholery is self-soothing. It's just acceptable or something because it's seen as less vulnerable.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I'd rather somebody just stick their thumb in their mouth instead of being an asshole. So the next time someone's an asshole to you, just go up to them and put their thumb in their mouth?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
And how come like things are culturally appropriate self-soothing? Like it's okay to have six glasses of wine a night, but it's not okay to rock yourself.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Another thing you said helped me with my original problem, which was, is your idea of self-awareness that as self-awareness increases. So good news, bad news, like you're a self-aware creature. Wonderful. But a lot of things that you become aware of are your own challenge your own wounds, right? Yes. Yes. This is why people avoid going to the doctor because it's like, yay, you had an x-ray. Boo.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I love that. And crying. Oh, and crying. People think we have created this idea that crying is like failing. We say to people, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. It's so weird. It's like saying, don't pee, don't pee. That is an actual biological heal. It's a baptism. It's a getting it all out, starting over, starting fresh. We should say, cry, cry, cry. You know, if that's That's part of healing.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It's not the thing we get through to get to the thing. It's not like, oh, we just have to sit through the crying so we can get to the words that we're going to say to each other.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
We always think we have put so much faith in words, but the actual act of crying and sitting with someone who's crying and not being so uncomfortable with our own stuff that we rush them through the crying, that's not what we suffer through to get to the healing. That is the healing. That is the healing.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I don't understand why people have such a weird... Because it's a loss of control and we don't like people to lose control around us.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Connected. Those two, directly connected. You're really an example. You're amazing. It's your vulnerability and your You're not just a teacher, you're a student and that's what we trust.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Now you have all the information that the x-ray reveals. So is it kind of a positive thing too? Because it's, it's people who are the more, maybe the more introspection I'm doing, the more work I'm doing, the more what I need to heal becomes apparent.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
I just keep thinking as we end that so much of what you've described as healing is releasing. I think we think of healing as something that has to come in and fix us on the inside and all this stuff has to happen on the inside for us to change. But actually everything you're talking about, the writing, The breathing, the walking, the crying, it's all release.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It's just different ways of not holding it all in, not holding our breath, not hiding. So today, let's just think of what we need to release and oh, not even what, maybe we don't even know, but just how we're releasing today. Okay. How we're exhaling. Maybe that's how we heal. Alex L., thank you for who you are in the world. Your new book, How We Heal, is just an act of service to all of us.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
It is community care. So thank you. And to the pod squad. Just real quick, heal yourself this week and we'll see you next time.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
When you say, I knew what I didn't want, I mean, I think that's kind of everything, right? Because Even that awareness means you are aware that this is, in some ways, a thing I could build or not. It's not just the world as it is, right? It's something that I can have agency in. When you say, I knew what I didn't want, what are you saying you didn't want?
We Can Do Hard Things
How to Heal with Alex Elle (Best of)
What were the women in your family modeling that insulted your soul?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And you've run out of planes. You've run out of many planes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Your panicking poems. Oh my God, they make me so... planes turning around on the runway to deboard me.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Andrea goes online just to make sure she hasn't accidentally posted nude pictures of themselves and rereads emails 12 times just to make sure there's nothing in the email that could later incriminate for a crime they have not committed.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Hey y'all, today's episode is my favorite episode we've ever done. Probably the conversation that has meant the most to me, maybe on or off the pod, in a long time. It's also deep and funny and will help you see the world and your life in a different way. You won't end this episode without being a new person. It's also got some stuff in it about death, about illness, about suicide ideation.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
They're the best. Actually, you wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And you wear them under suits and you wear them to bed.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life changing difference. That's why I think Alma is so cool. Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through Alma say their therapist made them feel seen and heard. You know, I love that.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media. It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash hard things to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's helloalma.com slash hard things.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
How is your partner?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
It feels irresponsible, doesn't it? It's irresponsible and reckless, that kind of behavior. It is irresponsible. What are you doing?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
So if hearing people talk honestly about those things hurts you, don't listen. And if it helps you listen. Today's conversation is with Andrea Gibson. Andrea Gibson is one of the most celebrated and influential spoken word artists of our time. Best known for their live performances, Andrea has changed the landscape of what it means to attend a poetry show.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And what does that mean to you? What does spending time living look like?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Andrea's poems center around LGBTQ issues, spirituality, feminism, mental health, and the dismantling of oppressive social systems. Andrea is the author of seven books, most recently, You Better Be Lightning. So PodSquad, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I need to tell you how this conversation that you're about to hear began.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
You've had a fascinating journey with the divine, with God. What is your relationship with God like these days? And what do you think about God?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
What are your feelings about Christianity and Jesus these days? You know, I've always been a big fan of Jesus. Yeah, big fan. I worship the guy.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Maybe a couple months ago, I was struggling in my recovery, just having a moment that I I was just stuck and nothing was getting better. And I, uh, was talking to my doctor, who's a amazingly wise and world renowned eating disorder specialist. Okay. And I was telling her, that the problem was that in any of my therapy sessions, which were wonderful, I just felt like nothing was true enough.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we were. So what is that? The need to keep the listening and what are you listening to at night? Is it scary to fall asleep?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
You know, I had neurological, I guess I have it. I had neurological Lyme disease.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
for years and I remember calling my sister one night in the middle of the night and being like I don't think I'm gonna make it through the night like Lyme disease that is you wrote your last book in response to the world feeling like the world was dividing people up into good and bad what is your idea of what makes a good person or a good life do you believe in good people and bad people hmm
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Because there's a line, I'm just going to quote your poetry badly back to you all day because I do have a lot of it memorized. But do you remember the line I read to you on vacation that was like, there are no good people and bad people. There are only people who are dedicated to healing their own brokenness or their own wounds. Do you know what I'm talking about, Andrea?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
That's all we got is the trying. Can you tell us about your sister?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Like we were just like scratching the surface of something and I couldn't get to the truth of things. We're talking about eating strategies and I need to talk about like, are we sure that we should be doing life at all? And so she was quiet for a while because she's heard these sort of ideas from me. And then she said, Glennon, What I want you to do is I want you to find the poet Andrea Gibson.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And how are your parents and how are you all discussing all of what is happening now? How is your family doing?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
So I'll say, do you write the little dash Andrea Gibson at the end?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And at first I thought, well, fuck. This is the world-renowned doctor and the only idea she has left for me is poetry. And does this mean that I'm fucked, right? But, of course... my entire insides went, huh. So that afternoon I ordered every book of Andrea Gibson's. And I think on the first page of the first book, I understood exactly why my doctor prescribed Andrea Gibson's poetry.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
So that's how they are. Yeah, that's how they are. When you and your partner talk, like what do you decide to do? Do you find yourself living any differently day to day? Do you make plans differently? Are you even in that spot or you're still floaty?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I'm trying to turn her woo-woo, but it's not working. I work on it too over here.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I felt for the first time in maybe ever that somebody was telling the truthiest truth that somebody could be hilarious and light and beautiful and also acknowledge how fucking brutal and beautiful love and loss and all of it is. And Abby and I went on away for my birthday vacation. And can you tell Andrea what happened there? First of all, hi, Andrea. Hi, Andrea. Hi, y'all. Hi.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I know, it's real. Just to Symbiotica, thank you for making my wife so happy.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
When you think about all the people who follow you in the same way that I follow you now, for truth, for love, for hope, when you think about what you want them to get from you right now? Like, what do you want them to hear from you right now?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
You talk about showing up for each other. Talk to us about your friendships. Your friendship seems so strong and so utterly beautiful. I just keep thinking about your best friend trying to fight the doctor, which makes my heart swell. How is that best friend doing? How are your friends showing up? What feels good to you when a person shows up or one of your friends? How are you receiving people?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I can imagine there's a lot of friends trying to grab you out of this cocoon right now.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Yeah. Yeah. How is that going? And who are your friends and how do they love you?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
On our birthday trip. I don't even remember Abby being on vacation with me.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
It's hard. We just did a breath class in tents. Oh, did you? What did you think of it? We had such a woo-woo reaction that I'm embarrassed to talk about it, really. Please do, though. Please. I mean, Andrea, they just tell you to start breathing a certain way and that something will happen. So you're like, okay, this is going to be a long 45 minutes.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And then you start breathing in this specific way. And then the next thing I knew, I'll just speak for myself, My hands started to clench and not be able to unclench. So that's something physical that happens. And then I- They call it the claw. The claw, right? And it feels very weird. And then I started having visions. I started having visions that were so beautiful and inevitable.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
What ended up happening for us is we got an email and you explained to us what had been happening in your life when the day that Abby DMed you the picture of me reading your poetry. So do you want to share that part of your experience with us?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Stuff that I saw that I was like, of course. So first I saw a tunnel. Okay. And there were the faces of all the people I loved around the tunnel. And PS, there were people, faces that I was like, I don't fucking love that person.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
So it was all the people that I love. And I will tell you that there was a whiff of and are responsible for. But that wasn't in words. It was just an idea. Like, these are the people you are responsible for. So this kind of explained the extra few faces that I was like, what in the fuck are you doing in my tunnel? But then afterwards, it made sense. Like, oh, of course, I do love those people.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I saw this love in them that they were unexpected. And then after the tunnel came this vision of myself. P.S., this was before I started, really, really got into recovery for anorexia. And it was myself, but like, 20 pounds. This is too much information, but it was like, I was 20 pounds heavier and very at peace and beautiful.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And that sort of scared the shit out of me because my whole life I've been scared to death to get bigger. And it was just this vision of my future self. And then Andrea, it was so joyful, all of it. And that was it. Those are the only things that mattered. And when I'm saying the words, this feels much less profound. But when I'm telling you that was all that mattered, it was this
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
These people and this self, this love of these people and this peaceful, whole, less fearful self. And then what happened? And then I could die. not stop laughing. And there were a ton of other people in this class, Andrea, and they were having experiences. I was bawling. She was laughing. I was laughing. Like I was in a comedy club.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Like, you know, when you're somewhere like in church and they say, don't laugh. And so then you laugh harder. And it went on for 15 minutes.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
It really does. Cause you realize how the same they are. They're both all weird.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Right? Laughing and crying are both all.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Well, isn't laughing kind of like a, oh, she laughs at the days to come. That's like an old biblical thing. It was a release of fear and the release of fear makes you laugh.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Are you afraid that people will be afraid to talk to you?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
I have taken psychedelics, but not like, like just in fraternity basements and stuff. Not with any help or guidance or attention or safety or, right. So let's, it was a different lifetime.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And so that's the want and need to do all the human-y, bodily things now. Because I think we think of it being a very spiritual experience to be facing mortality in a, I don't know, the way you are. we're all facing mortality, but like this, that it's a very spiritual experience, but it seems like maybe it would be a very bodily experience. The spiritual experience could be for later.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And now you're like, I want to paint. I want to hug. I want to do all these things that this body will do.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
So the real truth is that when I was talking to my therapist about the problem I was having, what I actually said to her was, I feel like all we're talking about is everything but the truth which is that we're all gonna die and all the people we love are gonna die how are we not all freaking out every single day how I know and that's when she was like Andrea Gibson
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Is there any way we could get you to read a poem?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Unless you have a specific poem. No, I would just have to have you read every single one of your books that I carry around. Like I told you, like some people who have heart problems have to keep their aspirin close. I can't just keep all your books.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
In the email, you said one of the things that you were, this was amazing that this was like your second sentence, but you said you were trying to figure out how and when to talk about it because you have such a,
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Wow. Andrea, you make me love the world. You do too. You both do.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
Yeah. I know that you have 140 friends, but if you ever feel like, you know, you're accepting applications.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
following of young people, lots of people who struggle with all different kinds of mental health issues, which we also have here in our house and in our pod squad, and that you were trying to figure out how to talk about it in a way that, well, that wouldn't scare the shit out of everybody, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And can you squeeze Meg for us? Yeah. Oh, I will. Yeah. She loves you all. I will squeeze her. I'll be waiting for the application, pod squad. Thank you for being with us. And we will see you next time. Go out there and be a body today. Bye. Bye all. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
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We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
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We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
The way that you do talk to us in your art about suicide, I want to say. When I talk about suicide, everybody freaks out because there just seems to be this idea that if we don't talk about it, no one will think of it. Yeah. And the way that you talk about it with such honesty and such an open heart definitely makes me want to live, not the other way around. It makes me want to live. It makes me.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
feel less alone and less terrified. And, uh, I can only imagine that the way you're doing this will do the same for the world, but your love for all of us is so evident. Sometimes I can't watch you on Instagram and it feels like, so there's this part in the Bible where I fuck up every Bible story. So just don't correct me. All right. It's like a bunch of people are like, God, let us see you.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
And God's like, all right, I can't do that because you'll freak the fuck out, but I'll just let you see where I just was. And so that's how I feel. I can read your books because it feels like that's where God just was. but looking directly at you feels like there's so much God pouring out of you presently that it's alarming to me. I find you alarmingly alive.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Bravest Conversation We’ve Had: Andrea Gibson (Best Of)
What was it like when you read that? First, I can't believe you read it in a medical portal, but how... Yeah, that's something.