Deborah Roberts
Appearances
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hi there, this is Debra Roberts. For the next six weeks, the 2020 podcast is going to bring you a new series from our colleagues at ABC Audio, and this one is about Sean Diddy Combs, the hip-hop mogul now facing federal charges, which he denies. Here's ABC's Brian Buckmeyer with Bad Rap, the case against Diddy. Episode one, party's over.
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
Give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
I'm still trying to track that boat down. I just talked to them today and they're still looking for it.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
There's no doubt in your mind that two people signed these documents in front of you.
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True Crime Vault: Overboard
right now see you're hesitant no believe me this is this is what i'm talking about listen to me really well tell me right now the truth those people that are missing sign those documents is what you're telling me i don't believe you you were hesitant to begin with tell me the truth kathleen tell me the truth she was nervous her voice was cracking she was looking down kathleen these people didn't sign these documents in front of you did they
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
It's either 100 or it's nothing. You're being wishy-washy. Kathleen, give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. Kathleen, no honestly. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
A fighter to the finish. Remember Kim Pack's civil case to get her mother's life insurance?
20/20
Wild Crime: You've Got Your Monster | S4 Ep. 2
This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week, we'll bring you Episode 3. You can also stream it on Hulu. And of course, when you're there, you can also find more from 2020.
20/20
Wild Crime: You've Got Your Monster | S4 Ep. 2
This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we're bringing you episode two of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. It's called You've Got Your Monster.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Tonight, a daughter's discovery of family secrets and scandals leading to a dramatic showdown.
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True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Now we're taking you inside her obsessed six-year crusade to catch the killer. What kind of crime?
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Before this hour is over, there will be another shocking death. But is that the end of the story?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're beginning to make the press. There are newspaper headlines. What did you make of that?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You eventually go to the district attorney's office, and what do you learn?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The district attorney is trying to track her down, and you want to be helpful in this.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So you were arrested again? Yes. What did you think? What did you feel?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
At this moment, it's pretty clear to everybody you've dealt with that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie? I don't feel I was, no.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us? Do you call scams?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You were taken to Rikers Island, one of the most frightening jails in the country. What was that like for you? Were you terrified?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You were there for 19 months? Yes. Did you feel that you were in danger ever?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you have celebrity status in jail? I definitely did, yes. And then you strike a Netflix deal.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So you're essentially making money off of this. I mean, was it kind of a joke to you?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But Anna, what defendant has clothes brought in by a stylist?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Prosecutors said that your story was lie after lie after lie. That's what they told the jury.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
What were you expected to provide as proof that you have these millions and millions of dollars overseas?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna never testified in court, and during our interview, her lawyer wouldn't let her answer many of my questions about those dealings with the banks. The impression that they get from documents is that you have a lot of money in accounts. Was that by design? Um, yes. So you wanted them to think that you had a lot of money to put up?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you have that amount of money in overseas accounts? I can't answer that. And how do you come up with bank statements? I can't answer that. How were you able to falsify documents?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
February 11th, you walked out of prison a free woman.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
When you look at the evidence that the prosecution presented, it looks like this was... A scam.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Your lawyer at the time said that you did nothing wrong, that you exploited a system easily seduced by glitz and glamour, that you told little white lies. Is that what happened?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
When did you begin to realize that you could not afford your life and pay people back?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But the one thing Anna couldn't fix was the actual truth behind her identity. Who was this heiress and where did she come from? Surely not from wealth.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You had not seen Anna for a long time. What was it like when you walked in that courtroom to testify?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
If she wasn't born an heiress, then who exactly was she? The woman who claimed to be Anna Delvey was actually born Anna Sorokin, far from the skyscrapers of Manhattan in a small town in Russia. You were born in Russia. Yes. What was your childhood like? Were you happy?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Those dreams would eventually lead to Paris. Following her lifelong interest in fashion, she eventually got a position at a glossy magazine called Purple. And Anna Sorokin morphed into Anna Delvey.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Let me just have you say, pronounce, and spell your name, please.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
And that's when she began telling everybody about the idea for that art center, the Anna Delvey Foundation. And she had to come up with money to make it happen. Everything after that leads back to that courtroom in Lower Manhattan, and Rachel taking the stand in an emotional moment, telling about that trip to Morocco.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
What was that like for you as you watched her, your friend, testifying against you?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
How would you describe the real Anna Delvey? Who is she?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
There are some people who would say you benefited from her greed. They don't see you as a victim.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Remember, the charges against Anna go a lot farther than just that one situation with Rachel. No matter what the jurors think about Rachel, as deliberations begin, the big question is, what do they think about Anna?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Some of the jurors didn't feel sympathetic for your situation with Anna. How did that feel for you?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
After the guilty verdict, you are sent to Albion Correctional Facility.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
And remember that Netflix deal of more than $300,000? Well, it turns out the New York state law won't let Anna profit from her crimes. So that money first has to be used to pay back her victims.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
On February 11th, after spending just under four years of her four to 12 year sentence in prison, Anna is released early for good behavior.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're just a few weeks out of prison, but yet you're still active.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna even goes so far as to call herself a professional defendant. This doesn't look like a woman who has been through prison and who has learned something from prison. You're casually, happily back on social media.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But Anna, you have people following you on social media who say things like queen and I'm so pleased for you. I mean, it almost seems like this is just sort of a game to you.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna has been held in detention in immigration custody since March. Her lawyer has been trying to get her released.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna was in her early 20s when she showed up in New York City from Paris back in 2013. She had come from a middle class background, she had no job, but somehow once she was here through a combination of deception and assumptions, people got the impression that she was wealthy.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Thanks for listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. We hope you'll join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC for all new broadcast episodes. See you then.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The impression is that you're kind of like sliding through life and you don't have to sign for anything and people just kind of let you do what you want. I guess, yes. So if you're creating the illusion that you have a certain amount of money, even though you don't, did you see that as a problem? Not at the time. but it would soon become a big problem, a criminal matter.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The trouble began when Anna set her sights on this historic building in midtown Manhattan. As outrageous as it sounds, this young, unemployed newcomer with no business experience believed that she could fake her way into getting the millions of dollars necessary to turn it into her dream come true.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
How did they treat you, this young 20-something, with these grand ideas for a project?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you tell people that you were an heiress? Absolutely not.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen. dealt with, that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You would pay for things, mostly, when you two went out. Why?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So it was pretty casual, but you figured she had money.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
She would later on say, she just assumed you were a socialite.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But she would soon learn that not everything was what it seemed. I mean, not even Anna's last name, Delvey? She made that up. Her real name was Sorokin. Where's the name Delvey come from? I just came up with it. You just made it up? Yes. It's not a family name? No. You just like that better than Sorokin? Yes.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
This is the first time you've sat down for a television interview. Why are you talking with us?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Little did she know that a trap was about to be laid that was going to lead to her downfall.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Why are you treating everybody a $7,000 a night room?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So now you have a tab of 60 plus thousand dollars? Yes.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
She's reaching out to you to pay her back. Do you know that she is beside herself with worry about the card?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're texting Anna. No reimbursement. What are you thinking?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
At this stage, you don't have the money to pay Rachel.
20/20
Bad Rap: Invincible
Hi there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here. We're going to bring you the next installment of our six-part series on Sean Diddy Combs. Here's Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, Episode 2, Invincible.
20/20
Wild Crime: Because They're Mine | S4 Ep. 3
This is Deborah Roberts. Join us next week for the chilling conclusion of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. Wild Crime is a production of Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can find all four seasons of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu. And of course, while you're there, you can also find episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Wild Crime: Because They're Mine | S4 Ep. 3
Hi, it's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. You're about to hear the third installment of our four-part series, Wild Crime, 11 Skulls. Here's episode three, Because They're Mine.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
Hi there, 2020 listeners. This is Deborah Roberts. This week, we're bringing you episode four of Death in the Dorms, season two. Today, you'll hear the story of Max Groover, a first-year student at Louisiana State University and a fraternity pledge event that spiraled violently out of control.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
This is Debra Roberts. Join us next week to hear the story of a thrill-seeker from the College of Charleston whose search for adventure continues. led him down a dangerous path. Death in the Dorms was produced by ABC News Studios with the Intellectual Property Corporation and Yes Like a River for Hulu Originals. You can find the entire series streaming on Hulu.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
And be sure to tune in to ABC Friday Nights at 9 for all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Wild Crime: Ain't She Purty? | S4 Ep. 1
This is Deborah Roberts. You can catch Episode 2 of Wild Crime in our feed next week. The series was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can stream all four seasons of Wild Crime on Hulu. And while you're there, of course, you can always find more from 2020.
20/20
Bad Romance: Web of Lies
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
Wild Crime: Mask of Sanity | S4 Ep. 4
This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week we'll be back with a new series from 2020 called Bad Romance. Tales of heartbreak, betrayal and the unexpected twist that can happen when love turns sour. Don't forget you can find seasons 1 through 4 of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu along with more episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Gilgo Beach Murders: A Serial Killer’s Secrets?
This is Deborah Roberts. Our story was produced by Impact by Nightline and includes footage from Newsday TV. You can find Gilgo Beach Murders, A Serial Killer's Secrets streaming on Hulu. Next week, we'll bring you a brand new season of Wild Crime. We'll follow along as special agents who work for our national parks hunt an elusive killer. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Gilgo Beach Murders: A Serial Killer’s Secrets?
This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we'll be bringing you a deep dive into the Gilgo Beach murders from Impact by Nightline. The number of alleged victims has grown. Prosecutors now have charged a Manhattan architect with the deaths of seven women. Here's an inside look at the alleged double life of the accused killer.
20/20
Bad Romance: No Tomorrow
Hi, it's Debra Roberts. For the next eight weeks, we're excited to bring you a special series on the 2020 podcast. It's called Bad Romance. The series unravels the shocking true crime stories of love turned lethal. Take a listen.
20/20
The Code Breakers
And how incredible, David. Catherine Edwards' killer, Clayton Foreman, will be eligible for parole in 30 years. He'll be in his 90s. He's appealing his conviction. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
20/20
Run, Run, Run
But everything isn't what it seems when a decades-old family secret comes to light. An all-new 2020 begins right now.
20/20
Run, Run, Run
David, she has exhausted her appeals, but she says she still plans to fight for her freedom. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Not the crime itself, but who the people were and how they got to that point, whether it's the victim or whether it might be the perpetrator. And the same thing with Sabrina Limon, too, just trying to get to know her. And, you know, we did, I think, a good job of painting that picture of her, too, as a person.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, her son. Yeah, the human touch, I think, is what's so important. And that's what you and our producers do so well. And Gary, you did such a great job on the story.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
We're going to do more of it, you and I. And as for Sabrina Limon, her federal petition challenging her convictions was denied, so she's still in prison. We'll do a follow-up, I'm sure, on this at some point.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming in. This is so rare that we actually get a chance to take a moment and breathe.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And talk about these stories that we cover, but it's always a pleasure to work with you.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Well, we'll be back next Monday with a new 2020 after show just for you. And we're curious, what questions do you have about 2020 that you might want us to answer on this podcast? Because we're here to do that for you. Are there things you've always wondered about? We're planning a listener mailbag episode when we can answer your questions. So reach out to us.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
We want to hear what you have to say and make them interesting questions, okay? Well, tune in on Friday nights at 9 to watch the latest 2020 show on ABC. Or, of course, you can listen Saturday in your 2020 podcast feed. 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Chertavian and Sasha Oslanian.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And, of course, we always have help from our producers like Gary Nguyen, Joseph Rhee, who's here on this one, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The Stolen Girl series premiere April 16th on Freeform and stream on Hulu.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Is this just a spiritual discussion or is it a roadmap to foul play? Well, police arrested Jonathan and Sabrina for the murder, but without enough evidence against her, Sabrina actually was able to walk free until that's a big until in a shocking twist. Jonathan agreed to testify against the woman who was his lover in exchange for pleading guilty to manslaughter.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And this all happened just days before the trial. Wow. It was a doozy. I reported this story with producer Gary Wynn, whom I've had the pleasure of working with for years. Gary, this is so great to have you actually in the studio to talk like this. Absolutely.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
What a story. I remember when you came to me about it, and we, you know, Joe Reed, the senior producer, was involved in it, and we were all talking about how bizarre this story was, and also the area, you know, out in this sort of remote part of California. You and I headed out to Tehachapi. I still have trouble pronouncing it, Tehachapi. Yes.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The couple at the center of it, Robert and Sabrina Limon, they appear to be living an idyllic life with their two kids in Silver Lakes, California. And by all accounts, they were an outgoing couple. They loved to party. They'd become a part of a tight-knit group of couples who called themselves the Wolfpack.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And I remember driving through the Mojave Desert, and it was just so bizarre.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The sun came out. Yeah, you know, people often ask about how we, you know, shot our stories and what it was like on the ground. And it is sort of interesting. I mean, obviously, we're reporting on these very intense and tragic stories. But those little moments like your flood in the hotel and us, you know, and my driving there.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And, you know, literally, it looked like a moonscape when I was out there, you know, and you and I laughed a little bit about that. But This is a story that had mystery, infidelity, religion. I mean, it was one of those classics that almost felt like a TV show, right? You've got a couple who seem to have like that great marriage. But, you know, there were challenges in trying to report this, too.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
I mean, the crime took place in an industrial park, private property. You know, people don't realize what we have to go through to kind of get these things going.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, because it was like a big storage unit. And sometimes these things aren't the most attractive things that we're shooting. So you have to find the producers, you have to find a way to sort of bring them to life and make it make sense to the audience because otherwise, you know, visually it just doesn't, it doesn't tell the story.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
But then Robert was found murdered in a remote industrial complex where he had been working. The illusion of their perfect marriage and life just crumbled. As authorities investigated the death, they discovered that not only did the couple have an open marriage, but Sabrina was having a full-blown relationship with a man who was much younger, a firefighter named Jonathan Hearn.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts here, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're talking about one of our classic true crime tales that we bring you on 2020 on a regular basis. This one is a story of love, betrayal, and murder. The episode was called Unholy Matrimony.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, that played a big part in the story, that security camera footage.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
You get on the case. You're looking at all the crime scene pictures, videos, so forth. Now, when you're looking out here... Many times there's cameras everywhere. Do you even think that there might be surveillance cameras out here?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
You were just hoping that this would show you something. You didn't know what you were going to get.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And he was quite a character. Not only was he thorough, but I just remember he had this sunburn on his face because he had these lines on his face. He had his sunglasses on, but that's how hot it was out where we were.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, I noticed that as soon as we sat down. But what a police officer, though.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
One of the things that our audience doesn't always know is even though they see all these like sweeping, interesting shots of the story, there's a lot going into putting all this together. And I remember you had drones out there.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So, you know, I want to talk about the clues in solving this case, but let's also talk about how we brought it to the audience because I remember being out there and you're placing me in this place and that place and trying to make sure we captured the camera. And you even had the camera rolling to take shots of us while we're out walking.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So talk about how you bring all of that together for the audience.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
In a very creative way. Well, let's get back to the story then. So, Gary, the detectives had evidence that the assailant actually fled on a motorcycle. It's a great visual, but we didn't have it. So how do you work to bring that part of the story to life?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And he rode a long time on that motorcycle to get to this location. Absolutely.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Then police learned, of course, This guy who's on the motorcycle was Sabrina's lover, Jonathan Hearn. And in the story, you learn how as they start to untangle, they realize that she's having this affair. He owned a motorcycle. All the details matched up. And on that camera, it was so interesting, that security camera, the person that they saw was limping.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
After Robert's murder, detectives decided to wiretap Sabrina and Jonathan's phones to listen in. Let's hear a clip from the show.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And this guy was faking a limp on the way into the industrial park. And that was also something that was significant because they weren't sure. Was it a disabled person? And they went looking for people in the neighborhood. Maybe it was somebody who was homeless. And that was a whole ordeal as well.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Would be out in that area. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh, so many great details. Well, when we come back, the kinds of small details that producers look for when they're out shooting a story for us that help tell the story of the victim and who they were in life. So stay with us.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
All right. We're back. And I'm here with Gary Nguyen, my partner in crime, as we can say, I guess, when we're out shooting these stories. Let's get back to our story, Gary. So after Sabrina Limon was first arrested and then released because police didn't really have enough evidence to charge her, talk about the community's reaction, because this was a small community.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
They were well known in this community and liked in this community. And it kind You kind of led a little bit of a racy life there with the kind of open marriage and all of that. But what about the community?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So let's talk about Robert Limon, because he was a very well-loved guy. He was a devoted dad from everything that we heard. And the night that he died, his daughter was calling him because she wanted to talk to him about the first day of school, the next day. But of course, when somebody dies, they're very much of an offstage character.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So you have to work a little harder to paint a picture of who they are. And you went out of the way to find people who knew him to paint a nice picture of who this guy was as a dad and a husband.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah. You know, those are the things I think that our viewers and then, of course, here are listeners really gravitate to because. These are people, you know, we do these stories and yes, they're crime stories, but these are real people. And I remember our producer, our executive producer was really touched by the football coach.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And that was a little element that we found that we just thought would shed light because this is somebody that this guy knew long ago, but it told you a little bit about who they are. And somebody said to me the other day, one of the things they find so interesting about these stories of true crime is that
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman, right? You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But at the end of the day, they did believe her and her testimony was credible.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Right. Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Thanks for having us. This is kind of wild. We're actually getting to talk in this formal way. So, Denise, let me start with you because you and I have worked on countless stories together and you have this knack for digging, digging, digging into the old files and finding things that maybe either we thought.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020, along with John Quinones. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show, because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories, too, where we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And maybe, Samantha, you can jump in on this.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Talk about what that perspective was like, you know, working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Denise, what about Matt and Carrie's daughters? Because at the core of this case, they're children who have lost their mother and now lost their father, essentially, because he's away in prison. Talk to us a little bit about Carrie's daughters.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. Yeah. Something really, really heartbreaking. When you are covering these stories, Denise, and I think sometimes our viewers and in this case, our listeners are wondering how it affects you. I mean, your mom, we talked about this earlier. And these girls, I mean, what was that like for you as a mom and a producer to hear their story?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
was sort of interesting at the time, or maybe not as much, and then you find something new. So what is it about this story? And of course, we've covered a lot of stories that involve hypocrisy and, you know, ministers in the church and all of that. But what was it about this one?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, yeah. And we take that with us too. So we're thinking about these stories long after they're done. Samantha, this was an interesting one for you. A lot of work, a lot of digging, carrying around this dummy. You've worked on a lot of stories here at 2020. Is this one that kind of will stick with you for a while?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, there are victims out there when we cover these stories and we can't forget about them. Samantha, Denise, this was a lot of fun. We'll have to do more of this. Yes, thank you, Deborah. Of course, thanks for doing this. Denise Martinez-Ramundo is a producer for 2020, and Samantha Wanderer is an associate producer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Okay, that does it for us for 2020 The After Show. This time, we hope you're going to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020, of course, on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Chertavian, Sasha Azlanian, and Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We also had help this week from Amira Williams and Meg Fierro.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. And we should add that Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio and Laura Mayer, executive producer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And in small town Texas, too. So you're talking a southern town, a fairly youngish preacher with his family. And, you know, that just sort of shocked everybody. It shocked everybody in the community.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Now, Samantha, you were deeply involved in this story from the beginning, and you dug through all of the footage. And we're going to talk about that and how that made such a difference. But tell me about what drew you to this one.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And when you approach this, you know, again, as I said to Denise, you know, you're talking small town America and you've got to kind of dig into that psyche, too, of just how how shocking this is to people when something like this is revealed.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
This happened back in 2006. And, you know, when we go way back, it's sort of hard sometimes when we're trying to look into this, but archival footage played a big part of this. We're talking about this man who was convicted, his time in prison. Tell me all about that and going back in time.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
So when Carrie died of what appeared to be suicide, the community rallied around the grief-stricken pastor. But Carrie's family didn't. They suspected that something was amiss. Calling themselves the Charlie's Angels of Waco, they launched their own investigation revealing something that was pretty shocking in this church community. Lies and adultery.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But at that time, of course, he's saying he had nothing to do with it and I have nothing to hide, right?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Tell us a little bit about him because we talked about in the piece how he was polite and soft-spoken. The community was sort of rallying behind him.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But when you're looking through, Samantha, all these tapes and you're seeing things sort of evolve over time, tell me a little bit about that. You've got to digitize this video. You're working with attorneys. People don't really know how much work goes in. They see what we put on the air. They don't know what's going on behind the scenes for us to be able to bring it.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and on Friday night, we brought you a show called Dirty Little Secret. Matt Baker was a charismatic minister in Hewitt, Texas, and he was leading a life at the center of his community along with his wife, Carrie Baker, who was a Sunday school teacher at the church. They had two little girls.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And this story was very largely dependent on all this video.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And that's what's interesting about this program because we get a chance now on this podcast to give people a taste of some things that we didn't put in our show, in our program. So here's some material from the archive from a 2007 interview with Matt Baker before his trial and before he was convicted, which didn't make it into our program. Take a listen.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And his voice, I mean, you know, of course, you guys got to see more of him, but to just even hear his voice, it just sounds so small town, southern guy, innocent. Denise, when you're combing through the archives, give people a sense of how we decide, like
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
What to present and how we're going to reveal his personality, you know, as Samantha was just saying, just there was all kinds of stuff that even she didn't even know we had and we uncovered like emails and things. Give us a sense of what that's all about.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And ultimately, of course, they helped law enforcement uncover Matt's plot to kill his wife. Here's a clip from the show.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And we were talking about how, you know, obviously with our 47 year history, I mean, we have all kinds of tapes that sometimes we're able to find every now and again there's a problem. But we want to make it clear that, you know, you're capturing developments along the way and also both sides. Right.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Talk about Carrie's family, too, because they played a big part in this and they call themselves Charlie's Angels. What was that all about?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Which we see a lot. You and I have covered stories before where people have just stayed on it and stayed on it. And that's what actually brought cases to court. What did you make of the family and how have they managed to sort of hold up? And what was their demeanor like as they went through this whole process?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's always so fascinating when there's that turning point for people in these cases. All right. Well, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, what our 2020 team put together to challenge Matt's claims and just how improbable they really were.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We are back. All right. So much of this program featured archival tape. But you guys also got new interviews to round out the picture of this case. And one moment that just stood out to me was a test we did with Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, another Matt. And this was pretty creative, Denise. I mean, we do a lot of creative things here in the field. But tell us about this idea about the dummy.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We all hung on those words, too, on last week's 2020. On today's 2020 After Show, I get the pleasure to talk to 2020 producer Denise Martinez-Ramundo, who I normally talk to in the field, but today we get to talk a little more formally, and associate producer Samantha Wunderer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And tell us what that was that they were trying to unfold.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And that was really fascinating. So, Samantha, talk about that because you were in charge of this very heavy replica, this dummy, which was just under 200 pounds, right?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
So he helped you lift this like it was nothing. And the whole goal was for John Quinones, our reporter, to sit there and observe and tell me what that was all about. So they're going to try to hurriedly see if they can beat the clock in terms of like dressing this dummy and showing us how prosecutors were able to reveal in the trial that it didn't seem plausible.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And that was that was critical, Denise, too. I mean, and for us, talk to us a little bit about why we choose to do these things, because I think one of the things our listeners find intriguing is how we got to that point and why we thought that was important. So why did we think that would make such a difference in our story?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
They both were a big part of telling this story, sifting through hours of archival interviews 2020 conducted over the years, really, with Matt Baker, and speaking to new voices to help John Quinones take a fresh look at this case. So welcome to both of you.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us again. Let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
They had a little child together, a four-year-old, but he had teen children from a previous marriage. And the idea, I mean, this is the thing that gets me about this story. I mean, we hear, you and I cover so many of these stories where there are couples that are at odds and certainly, you know, very viciously at odds, but to involve teen children. So he takes his son that night with him.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And could they tell that the kids weren't being truthful?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And that connected him because he had those boots. So the boy starts to crack, but he's trying to protect—that's his stepmother. Lauren is his stepmother. Right. And Paul is his father. This poor kid. Yeah. That's a lot for a 15-year-old.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What follows is a dogged investigation by a pair of local police officers, telltale boot prints in the snow, an ice fisher who actually finds evidence, The search leads to Paul DeWise, Lauren's estranged husband. If you follow our shows, you know that wouldn't be a big surprise. But how it all happens is and his 15 year old son, Joe, his son from his first marriage.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
John, Lauren was killed by her estranged husband, of course. The whole notion that she was living this life of abuse, do people know this?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, we've seen that. You and I have seen that in stories we've covered. Did you get a sense of... What she endured in the marriage.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, she clearly had fled and was trying to find safety. You asked Ashley actually about this. Let's listen to a clip.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We talk about the four-year-old right now being raised by relatives.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What kind of an impact, John, you and I both when we go to these communities sometimes can really kind of get the feel, especially after you've talked to so many different people in a community. You get a feel for what a crime like this has done to a community. This was one that was known to be, I guess, peaceful and beautiful. And then they're shattered with this kind of horrific situation.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What kind of impact did this have on that community and even all these years later?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
things can happen, but also too that powerful lesson about domestic abuse and that people actually can take away from that.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We talk about the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799-SAFE, so people can actually call because there is something that you can take away from the story too, aside from the innocence that was shattered, but an awakening too about domestic violence and how tragically it can actually affect us all.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, John, you know, you and I cover so many of these stories and oftentimes we go to, you know, corners of the country, corners of the world, sometimes in your case. Did you take away, sometimes I take away a feeling from a story after I've done something.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I take away a feeling from the people or I did a story once in Florida and these two women police officers were just such tough, amazing women. And I sort of went away thinking about how they were so devoted and dedicated to Did you take a feeling away from this particular one?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
The human spirit. Yeah. I love it. Triumphs. Well, John Quinones, how great to have you on our inaugural behind-the-scenes broadcast.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I love it. This is it. This is it. Well, you know, you and I have been at this a long time, and it's great to finally sit down and get a chance to chat.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We definitely will. Thank you so much for coming in and doing this. Well, that's our program for today. John, I can't thank you enough for being here. The 2020 After Show will be back in your feed next Monday with more analysis and behind-the-scenes stories from 2020. BTS, as they say these days, behind the scenes.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Now, this poor kid is a teenager. John, there are so many elements to this story. I just, what was it about this one initially that you really felt so compelled to jump into?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Tune in on Friday nights, of course, at 9 o'clock for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. And I should also point out that our show is produced by Sasha Aslanian and Cameron Chertavian. Special thanks to Joe Diaz and Brian Mazurski of 2020. Laura Mayer is the executive producer of ABC Audio.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, that's what I wanted to ask you because it was a long time in the making. How did that change the reporting, though? Because when you wait five years, other things happen. People change their minds. Stories sort of change, maybe.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people close up. Sometimes people are ready to talk right away. But the idea, this woman survives this tragic shooting, loses her friend. And why do you think finally, I mean, obviously she had healed a little bit from her wounds, I guess, but psychologically, I mean, why did she feel ready to process and talk about it on camera?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Every Monday, the 2020 After Show will take you behind the scenes of our most recent program, and we will also play exclusive audio that you won't hear on Friday's show. As you know, we've been bringing hard-hitting investigative reporting for nearly five decades. I wasn't here all five decades, let me tell you. I've only been here for a couple of them.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, if you're in Montana, of course, you probably do love the outdoors. It always strikes me when you interview and when we all go out there and we talk to these people who have gone through such an ordeal. Does she talk a lot about Lauren and just having had that loss?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hey there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here, and I want to welcome you to our very first 2020 After Show. There are so many things that happen behind the scenes when we're out reporting. Surprising twists, incredible moments that we, our producers, and our correspondents experience. So we decided to share the best stories with you.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And this is the small town where nobody thinks anything happens there, you know, just doesn't happen in our community. And of course, it did happen there. Well, we're going to take a break. But after the break, we're going to hear about the surprising place that the murder weapon turned up and something, John, you did out in the field. You shared with me a little bit later. OK, so stay tuned.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
This whole team and I are so excited to bring this show to you, pulling back the curtain, if you will, on the program that you all know and love. And so for our first episode, I have the pleasure of welcoming my friend and colleague, ABC News correspondent, John Kenyonis.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
OK, John, we're back now. And I want to talk about not only just this crime and how it happened, but, you know, one of the things that's always intriguing is how police crack these cases. That's why our viewers and our listeners actually find these cases so interesting, how they found it. Now, the murder weapon in this case, these women had been shot.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
They didn't find it right away, but they eventually you met the folks who found the murder weapon. And it was an intriguing way. Tell us a little bit about that in this cold part of the country.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Did your producer, Joe Diaz, have to convince you to go out there?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Why would she think nothing of it to find a gun on the lake?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
That's a classic John Quinones line. And that turned out to be the murder weapon.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
It's good to be with you. Good to have you. We call you Q around here, so I hope you don't mind, John.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
John, what about just going out there? Because I think what listeners might find interesting is, you know, many times we go out there on either the lake or, in my case, sometimes in wooded areas in some kind of a swamp or whatever with the police to find out. You had never been ice fishing before.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
You're out there with her, having her tell the story. Give us a little bit of a sense behind the scenes when you're doing that interview with her. Are you nervous about falling through while you're doing it, or were you perfectly comfortable, and did you just do the interview without thinking about it?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
But, you know, I'm always struck by the fact that people are willing to take us out into their lives and to do these kinds of things. And you specifically probably wanted to be out there on the ice with her because that's – That factored into the story.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
It's a delight. And to see you on the program regularly. Now, John, your show, You Left Me for Dead, I'm going to give a little recap here because it's really interesting and lots of little twists. And a warning to all of you, there may be spoilers if you haven't heard the show. And you can find the episode, of course, right next to this one in your feed.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I am always struck by the police officers in these stories, and they are just the unsung heroes many times, particularly in small towns where maybe they don't necessarily always have the experience of investigating big murders. Maybe they don't happen there.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And so in this particular case, a big part of the story was that dogged detective work that was done by Jeremy Kopp of the Gallatin County Sheriff's Office, you mentioned, and Dustin Lensing of the Belgrade Police Department. What about the two of them in trying to put this together? And I'm guessing this is probably maybe the biggest case they had had to try to solve.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah. And they know to go to family right away to look at the family members. And certainly when they learn that somebody has been in the throes of a divorce, as Lauren had. So obviously they kind of knew where to swoop in. This case you talk about in the piece had a big impact on these two officers. And it happens all the time.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I've noticed that, too, when I've been out interviewing small town cops. Here's an extended clip from the interview with Jeremy Kopp and Dustin Langsing that gets at that. Let's take a listen.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, something like this. You know, just hearing those guys, and I've heard it so often when I've interviewed officers, you know, we think that they just go out and they just do their job and we see them, these visions of them, you know, in our pieces. But these are real people, and particularly in communities like this, and they take this stuff to heart.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
You Left Me for Dead is a story of absolute horror and homicide in a small town near Bozeman, Montana. Two women are at home, and this is a nightmare for any of us thinking about being at home on a quiet night, when an intruder breaks in and shoots them. Lauren DeWise dies, and Ashley Van Hamer miraculously survives.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And I've had officers tear up when talking about this, and you can hear the emotion in their voices. They did in this story, too.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Before we even get to that, because I want to... You've touched on so much. John, you're the classic reporter. You get it all in there. But I want to talk about Paul DeWise first, because... I mean, not only did he kill his wife and try to kill Ashley, he shot her, but he involved his teen children. It's unfathomable.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And you mentioned the Slayer lawsuit, and that is basically a Slayer petition means you can't profit from or you can't collect money after somebody has died.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I want to talk about that. But we're going to take a break first, though. And when we come back, we're going to unpack this tangled web of family, personal history and drama at the heart of the story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
We're back with the 2020 After Show, and Jonathan, the producer of the piece that we worked on together, is here. This story isn't just about a murder investigation. It's about a very, not just fractured, I guess, dysfunctional family. There are a lot of dynamics at work here. I thought that was so intriguing. You and I started off by looking at the family tree.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
John Chocolos, this patriarch, this wealthy patriarch of this family who had been murdered, had four daughters- One of them was Nathan's mom. That was just really interesting to find out how the money and how it affected the family and how there were fights within the family. And Nathan's mom, Linda, butted heads with her father a lot over life and the way she was raising her son.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah, a very tight-knit, we were told by them, a tight-knit Greek family too. One of the family members we actually got to meet was Charlene Gallagher, who was a younger sister to Linda. Let's hear an extended clip of that interview.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
You can hear the pain in her voice. We should say that Nathan was awaiting trial when he wound up taking his own life. The clip kind of really brings home, I think, how devastating these events were for this family. I mean, to have three family members.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And you certainly didn't want to presume to ask him to go to the cemetery.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Well, they never found her body, but he wanted at least a stone to represent her.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And that's what made the story so intriguing for us. My guest today is 2020 producer Jonathan Balthasar. Jonathan, I've been saying your name wrong.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Sometimes in these stories, we do find moments that we aren't expecting. And that's, I think, to me, on a human level, that's what makes the work that we do so interesting.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And so rewarding in some ways, even though it's a very sad story when we're talking about true crime, but rewarding to connect with a family member and to hopefully maybe bring a little bit of lightness to them just for that moment to be able to share their story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Well, you're always the one setting up these interviews, so it was such a pleasure to finally get a chance to talk with you about how we do all of this. Thanks for joining us. Jonathan is a producer for 2020. That is our show. Don't forget to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shurtavian and Sasha Ozlenian with Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Ryder. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
JB, exactly. Well, it's great to have you here because you and I have worked on a lot of stories together. Our reporting has taken us to a lot of crazy places.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Canadian Far North, Attica Prison, which I forgot about that one.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
It actually the weather turned out to be pretty good for this one. So you and I have been out on a lot of different shoots. And I always ask you when these stories are brought to me, what was it about it that intrigued you?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
To say the least. Yes. He was very generous with his money, but he used the money. He kind of ruled a little bit with an iron fist. So he was a guy who was obviously beloved in his family. He had worked very hard, but he could also be very tough.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
amazing, harrowing story of survival. His mom, Linda, was nowhere to be found, lost at sea with his boat called the Chicken Pox, which sank during a deep sea fishing trip. That's what he told everyone. But what started as a story of survival soon turns into something much darker.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're going to talk about family lies, our most recent episode, one which I reported on, and one which has just captivated so many people. When Nathan Carman was discovered adrift on a life raft in the Atlantic in 2016, the world saw a young man who narrowly escaped death. It was a
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah, because you're not sure, is he just devoid of emotion or is that just part of his disability?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah. And that's what made you such a great producer on the story, just because you had been on it from the beginning. Then, of course, fast forward three years later, and then he's out on this boat and this whole, you know, bizarre, you know, rescue at sea. The boat has supposedly sank and His mother is nowhere to be found.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
He doesn't know what happened, but thinks, assumes that maybe she fell overboard. So we decide, you know, of course, to pick up the story there because that's where so many people remember the story. And to tell it, you know, let's go out on a boat to talk about this.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Here it is. Like at the end of winter, you are trying to convince me to go out on a boat. First of all, out in the Atlantic.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I was. But of course, I needed to feel like it was safe. Tell us a little bit about how you go about doing something like that. Because one of the challenges was also this time of year, getting a boat, finding a boat that was similar to his to go out. Tell us about how you do that.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And we don't really, really know where it happened. That's part of the intrigue of the story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
It was beautiful. And, of course, the crew knew so much about this story, just having been up there. This is an area that you know well, too, because you grew up or spent time up in that area?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
As investigators look a little deeper into the accident, they discover that Nathan was also the last person to see his grandfather alive. millionaire real estate developer John Chakalos. The 87-year-old had been shot execution style in his own bed just three years earlier. And soon, detectives began thinking that the boat sinking wasn't an accident.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
That's very cool. That doesn't happen very often. Well, more to talk about on this, but we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, more on this story and our trip out to sea with Jonathan.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Welcome back to the 2020 After Show. Jonathan is here with me. One of the particular challenges, of course, of this story is that it did happen out there in the ocean. And so we're on this boat and trying to figure out what happened at sea. You bring the maritime lawyer who was involved in this case out to sea to talk to us a little bit about it.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And one of the things I found fascinating is hearing him talk about the very specific sort of the science of when they began to feel like Nathan's story sort of didn't add up about where he said the boat may have gone down, where he was rescued. I mean, that was pretty intriguing.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
How could you not be able to talk to her, you know, in a very panic kind of stricken sort of way?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
casting further suspicion on the surviving son who maintained his innocence in both cases. So the question becomes, could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance? Is he a victim of tragic circumstances or a cold-hearted killer? Here's a clip from our program.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Because I always thought maybe it would be something that was more complicated. And he's like, no, you just like press this one little button and that's it.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I just did that bit on the boat in addition to interviewing folks. But you actually got in a life raft because he said he survived a little more than a week with supplies out on a life raft. You actually got in one.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
He didn't seem to be weak when he was trying to climb out of the boat.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Kind of nerve wracking too. I'm glad you didn't ask me to do that one. Another intriguing part of this story is that we got a chance to include some sort of first-time scene broadcast interviews with law enforcement, right? Nathan is recorded while he's talking to police.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Tell folks how you managed to do that kind of thing, because that is what makes our stories, I think, interesting and special, to see something that you haven't seen before.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
But it's interesting that he even could know to do that and to actually- He was a very smart guy.
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The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
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The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
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The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
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The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
We have a little girl here for adoption. She has dwarfism.
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The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
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The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
Where is June Osborn? Rise up and fight for your freedom.
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The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.