Deborah Roberts
Appearances
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Can't get enough 2020 true crime? This podcast is for you. Go behind the scenes of 2020's gripping stories and get exclusive audio you won't hear anyplace else.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Join me, Debra Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Can't get enough 2020 true crime? This podcast is for you. Go behind the scenes of 2020's gripping stories and get exclusive audio you won't hear anyplace else.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Join me, Deborah Roberts, for 2020 The After Show, part of the 2020 podcast. Listen now ad-free on Amazon Music. This is the next phase in my therapeutic work.
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
She is manipulating us. Breathe in. Breathe out. Why are you resisting? Is it too late to get a refund?
20/20
Bad Rap: USA v. Sean Combs
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news, exclusive interviews, what everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: The Breaking Point
Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: The Breaking Point
For the team ready to conquer the grandest stage, immortality wins. Moments of sweat and sacrifice forge the composition of champions. An unforgettable journey is nearing its finale. Four more wins to take home the trophy. The NBA Finals, presented by YouTube TV, begin June 5th on ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: The Breaking Point
This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: The Breaking Point
Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hi there, this is Debra Roberts. For the next six weeks, the 2020 podcast is going to bring you a new series from our colleagues at ABC Audio, and this one is about Sean Diddy Combs, the hip-hop mogul now facing federal charges, which he denies. Here's ABC's Brian Buckmeyer with Bad Rap, the case against Diddy. Episode one, party's over.
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
Bad Rap: Party's Over
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Notorious: Ghislaine Maxwell
This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Notorious: Ghislaine Maxwell
Do you swear the testimony you're about to give should be the truth or the truth and nothing but the truth?
20/20
True Crime Vault: Notorious: Ghislaine Maxwell
Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Notorious: Ghislaine Maxwell
You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Bad Rap: Downfall
It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
Give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
I'm still trying to track that boat down. I just talked to them today and they're still looking for it.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
There's no doubt in your mind that two people signed these documents in front of you.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
right now see you're hesitant no believe me this is this is what i'm talking about listen to me really well tell me right now the truth those people that are missing sign those documents is what you're telling me i don't believe you you were hesitant to begin with tell me the truth kathleen tell me the truth she was nervous her voice was cracking she was looking down kathleen these people didn't sign these documents in front of you did they
20/20
True Crime Vault: Overboard
It's either 100 or it's nothing. You're being wishy-washy. Kathleen, give me a break. I mean, my four-year-old would do better than this. Kathleen, no honestly. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: Lion in a Cage
Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: Lion in a Cage
You did, though, later take out a protection, an order of protection against him. I did. I did.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: Lion in a Cage
For the team ready to conquer the grandest stage, immortality wins. Moments of sweat and sacrifice forge the composition of champions. An unforgettable journey is nearing its finale. Four more wins to take home the trophy. The NBA Finals, presented by YouTube TV, begin June 5th on ABC.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
A fighter to the finish. Remember Kim Pack's civil case to get her mother's life insurance?
20/20
Wild Crime: You've Got Your Monster | S4 Ep. 2
This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week, we'll bring you Episode 3. You can also stream it on Hulu. And of course, when you're there, you can also find more from 2020.
20/20
Wild Crime: You've Got Your Monster | S4 Ep. 2
This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we're bringing you episode two of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. It's called You've Got Your Monster.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Tonight, a daughter's discovery of family secrets and scandals leading to a dramatic showdown.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Now we're taking you inside her obsessed six-year crusade to catch the killer. What kind of crime?
20/20
True Crime Vault: Family Secrets
Before this hour is over, there will be another shocking death. But is that the end of the story?
20/20
True Crime Vault: Broken Vows
This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Broken Vows
Thanks for listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. We hope you'll join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC for all new broadcast episodes. See you then.
20/20
Bad Rap: Before and After
It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.
20/20
Bad Rap: Before and After
Yeah, I want to know, did you go to anger management or something? Something happened in Diddy's life. Like what happened?
20/20
Bad Rap: Before and After
Yeah, the NBA playoffs are here. And it's about to be ridiculous. Unbelievable. Unfair. Damn right nasty. Straight up. Can't miss. Don't blink. Grab your popcorn and strap in cinnamon. This isn't about who's next. This is about who's now. This time, it's different. The NBA playoffs presented by Google. Continue on ESPN and ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Murdaugh Family Murders
Hi, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. We're bringing you more 2020 each week with the 2020 True Crime Vault. That's right. You're going to hear a story pulled from our archives. Shows that we just can't seem to get out of our heads. And we think you're going to be drawn in, too. Thanks for listening.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Murdaugh Family Murders
You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC, you can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: Under the Microscope
Hi, I'm Debra Roberts here with another weekly episode of what happened to Holly Bobo Remember you can get new episodes early if you follow what happened to Holly Bobo on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app now, here's the episode
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: Under the Microscope
This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're beginning to make the press. There are newspaper headlines. What did you make of that?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You eventually go to the district attorney's office, and what do you learn?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The district attorney is trying to track her down, and you want to be helpful in this.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So you were arrested again? Yes. What did you think? What did you feel?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
At this moment, it's pretty clear to everybody you've dealt with that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie? I don't feel I was, no.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us? Do you call scams?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You were taken to Rikers Island, one of the most frightening jails in the country. What was that like for you? Were you terrified?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You were there for 19 months? Yes. Did you feel that you were in danger ever?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you have celebrity status in jail? I definitely did, yes. And then you strike a Netflix deal.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So you're essentially making money off of this. I mean, was it kind of a joke to you?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But Anna, what defendant has clothes brought in by a stylist?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Prosecutors said that your story was lie after lie after lie. That's what they told the jury.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
What were you expected to provide as proof that you have these millions and millions of dollars overseas?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna never testified in court, and during our interview, her lawyer wouldn't let her answer many of my questions about those dealings with the banks. The impression that they get from documents is that you have a lot of money in accounts. Was that by design? Um, yes. So you wanted them to think that you had a lot of money to put up?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you have that amount of money in overseas accounts? I can't answer that. And how do you come up with bank statements? I can't answer that. How were you able to falsify documents?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
February 11th, you walked out of prison a free woman.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
When you look at the evidence that the prosecution presented, it looks like this was... A scam.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Your lawyer at the time said that you did nothing wrong, that you exploited a system easily seduced by glitz and glamour, that you told little white lies. Is that what happened?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
When did you begin to realize that you could not afford your life and pay people back?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But the one thing Anna couldn't fix was the actual truth behind her identity. Who was this heiress and where did she come from? Surely not from wealth.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You had not seen Anna for a long time. What was it like when you walked in that courtroom to testify?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
If she wasn't born an heiress, then who exactly was she? The woman who claimed to be Anna Delvey was actually born Anna Sorokin, far from the skyscrapers of Manhattan in a small town in Russia. You were born in Russia. Yes. What was your childhood like? Were you happy?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Those dreams would eventually lead to Paris. Following her lifelong interest in fashion, she eventually got a position at a glossy magazine called Purple. And Anna Sorokin morphed into Anna Delvey.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Let me just have you say, pronounce, and spell your name, please.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
And that's when she began telling everybody about the idea for that art center, the Anna Delvey Foundation. And she had to come up with money to make it happen. Everything after that leads back to that courtroom in Lower Manhattan, and Rachel taking the stand in an emotional moment, telling about that trip to Morocco.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
What was that like for you as you watched her, your friend, testifying against you?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
How would you describe the real Anna Delvey? Who is she?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
There are some people who would say you benefited from her greed. They don't see you as a victim.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Remember, the charges against Anna go a lot farther than just that one situation with Rachel. No matter what the jurors think about Rachel, as deliberations begin, the big question is, what do they think about Anna?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Some of the jurors didn't feel sympathetic for your situation with Anna. How did that feel for you?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
After the guilty verdict, you are sent to Albion Correctional Facility.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
And remember that Netflix deal of more than $300,000? Well, it turns out the New York state law won't let Anna profit from her crimes. So that money first has to be used to pay back her victims.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
On February 11th, after spending just under four years of her four to 12 year sentence in prison, Anna is released early for good behavior.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're just a few weeks out of prison, but yet you're still active.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna even goes so far as to call herself a professional defendant. This doesn't look like a woman who has been through prison and who has learned something from prison. You're casually, happily back on social media.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But Anna, you have people following you on social media who say things like queen and I'm so pleased for you. I mean, it almost seems like this is just sort of a game to you.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna has been held in detention in immigration custody since March. Her lawyer has been trying to get her released.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Anna was in her early 20s when she showed up in New York City from Paris back in 2013. She had come from a middle class background, she had no job, but somehow once she was here through a combination of deception and assumptions, people got the impression that she was wealthy.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Many people see you as the ultimate scammer. Are you scamming us?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Thanks for listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. We hope you'll join us Friday nights at 9 on ABC for all new broadcast episodes. See you then.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Each week, we reach back into our archives and bring you a story we found unforgettable.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The impression is that you're kind of like sliding through life and you don't have to sign for anything and people just kind of let you do what you want. I guess, yes. So if you're creating the illusion that you have a certain amount of money, even though you don't, did you see that as a problem? Not at the time. but it would soon become a big problem, a criminal matter.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
The trouble began when Anna set her sights on this historic building in midtown Manhattan. As outrageous as it sounds, this young, unemployed newcomer with no business experience believed that she could fake her way into getting the millions of dollars necessary to turn it into her dream come true.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
How did they treat you, this young 20-something, with these grand ideas for a project?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Did you tell people that you were an heiress? Absolutely not.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Oh, my goodness. What have you done? Take a listen. dealt with, that there is no money, that you're no German heiress. Were you living a lie?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You would pay for things, mostly, when you two went out. Why?
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So it was pretty casual, but you figured she had money.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
She would later on say, she just assumed you were a socialite.
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True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
But she would soon learn that not everything was what it seemed. I mean, not even Anna's last name, Delvey? She made that up. Her real name was Sorokin. Where's the name Delvey come from? I just came up with it. You just made it up? Yes. It's not a family name? No. You just like that better than Sorokin? Yes.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
This is the first time you've sat down for a television interview. Why are you talking with us?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Little did she know that a trap was about to be laid that was going to lead to her downfall.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
Why are you treating everybody a $7,000 a night room?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
So now you have a tab of 60 plus thousand dollars? Yes.
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
She's reaching out to you to pay her back. Do you know that she is beside herself with worry about the card?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
You're texting Anna. No reimbursement. What are you thinking?
20/20
True Crime Vault: The Sinfluencer of Soho
At this stage, you don't have the money to pay Rachel.
20/20
Bad Rap: Me & U
It's Deborah Roberts here to bring you another weekly episode of Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy. Remember, you can catch new episodes a day early if you follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, here's our next episode.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Tainted Love
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flex path learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. This is Deborah Roberts. Welcome to the 2020 True Crime Vault.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: A Scream on Swan Johnson Road
This is Deborah Roberts. You're about to hear what happened to Holly Bobo. In this series, ABC News' Eva Pilgrim will take you through the twists and turns of a murder case that captivated Tennessee and the nation. Here's Episode 1.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: A Scream on Swan Johnson Road
FX presents Welcome to Wrexham. For the last four years, it's been this rollercoaster of magic. The Emmy Award-winning series returns.
20/20
What Happened to Holly Bobo?: A Scream on Swan Johnson Road
This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Gone In A Flash
Hi, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. We're bringing you more 2020 each week with the 2020 True Crime Vault. That's right. You're going to hear a story pulled from our archives. Shows that we just can't seem to get out of our heads. And we think you're going to be drawn in, too. Thanks for listening.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Gone In A Flash
You've been listening to the 2020 True Crime Vault. Friday nights at 9 on ABC. You can also find all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Bad Rap: Invincible
Hi there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here. We're going to bring you the next installment of our six-part series on Sean Diddy Combs. Here's Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, Episode 2, Invincible.
20/20
Wild Crime: Because They're Mine | S4 Ep. 3
This is Deborah Roberts. Join us next week for the chilling conclusion of Wild Crime, Eleven Skulls. Wild Crime is a production of Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can find all four seasons of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu. And of course, while you're there, you can also find episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Wild Crime: Because They're Mine | S4 Ep. 3
Hi, it's Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. You're about to hear the third installment of our four-part series, Wild Crime, 11 Skulls. Here's episode three, Because They're Mine.
20/20
Bad Romance: Love at First Click
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
Bad Romance: Love at First Click
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
Bad Romance: Love You to Death
She is manipulating us. Breathe in. Breathe out. Why are you resisting? Is it too late to get a refund?
20/20
Bad Romance: Love You to Death
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
Bad Romance: Love You to Death
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
Hi there, 2020 listeners. This is Deborah Roberts. This week, we're bringing you episode four of Death in the Dorms, season two. Today, you'll hear the story of Max Groover, a first-year student at Louisiana State University and a fraternity pledge event that spiraled violently out of control.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
This is Debra Roberts. Join us next week to hear the story of a thrill-seeker from the College of Charleston whose search for adventure continues. led him down a dangerous path. Death in the Dorms was produced by ABC News Studios with the Intellectual Property Corporation and Yes Like a River for Hulu Originals. You can find the entire series streaming on Hulu.
20/20
Death in the Dorms Season 2: Episode 4: Max Gruver
And be sure to tune in to ABC Friday Nights at 9 for all new broadcast episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Wild Crime: Ain't She Purty? | S4 Ep. 1
This is Deborah Roberts. You can catch Episode 2 of Wild Crime in our feed next week. The series was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. You can stream all four seasons of Wild Crime on Hulu. And while you're there, of course, you can always find more from 2020.
20/20
Bad Romance: Web of Lies
Robin, George, Michael, GMA. America's favorite number one morning show. The morning's first breaking news. Exclusive interviews. What everyone will be talking about that day. Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA.
20/20
True Crime Vault: Undercover Mother
The NBA playoffs presented by Google. Continue on ESPN and ABC. Hello, it's Robin Roberts here.
20/20
Wild Crime: Mask of Sanity | S4 Ep. 4
This is Deborah Roberts. Wild Crime was produced by Lone Wolf Media for ABC News Studios. Next week we'll be back with a new series from 2020 called Bad Romance. Tales of heartbreak, betrayal and the unexpected twist that can happen when love turns sour. Don't forget you can find seasons 1 through 4 of Wild Crime streaming on Hulu along with more episodes of 2020. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Gilgo Beach Murders: A Serial Killer’s Secrets?
This is Deborah Roberts. Our story was produced by Impact by Nightline and includes footage from Newsday TV. You can find Gilgo Beach Murders, A Serial Killer's Secrets streaming on Hulu. Next week, we'll bring you a brand new season of Wild Crime. We'll follow along as special agents who work for our national parks hunt an elusive killer. Thanks for listening.
20/20
Gilgo Beach Murders: A Serial Killer’s Secrets?
This is Deborah Roberts, co-anchor of 2020. This week, we'll be bringing you a deep dive into the Gilgo Beach murders from Impact by Nightline. The number of alleged victims has grown. Prosecutors now have charged a Manhattan architect with the deaths of seven women. Here's an inside look at the alleged double life of the accused killer.
20/20
Bad Romance: No Tomorrow
Hi, it's Debra Roberts. For the next eight weeks, we're excited to bring you a special series on the 2020 podcast. It's called Bad Romance. The series unravels the shocking true crime stories of love turned lethal. Take a listen.
20/20
Bad Rap: Countdown
This is Deborah Roberts. We hope you were just as interested as we were in Bad Rap, the case against Diddy. Sean Combs' trial is set to get underway very soon, and Brian Buckmeyer will be in the courtroom following it all, the prosecution, the defense, and anything unexpected. Bad Rap will be covering the trial with new episodes twice a week over in the Bad Rap feed.
20/20
Bad Rap: Countdown
If you want to keep up on what's sure to be a dramatic trial, follow Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We've also put a link to the show in today's episode description. And now here's a preview from Brian.
20/20
Dirty Little Secret
As for Baker, David, he has exhausted all of his state appeals. For an inside look at tonight's 2020, join me for our brand new podcast, 2020 The After Show. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
20/20
Dirty Little Secret
This is Debra Roberts. To hear the backstory to this episode, join me for the 2020 After Show. Every Monday, I'm going to talk with correspondents, producers, some of those folks behind the scenes who bring you these stories. And you're going to hear bonus tape that's not necessarily included in the episode. That's 2020 The After Show, Mondays in your 2020 podcast feed.
20/20
Unlucky Numbers
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
Unlucky Numbers
The Hulu Original Series. Good American Family. New episodes Wednesdays, streaming on Hulu.
20/20
Unlucky Numbers
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
The Code Breakers
And how incredible, David. Catherine Edwards' killer, Clayton Foreman, will be eligible for parole in 30 years. He'll be in his 90s. He's appealing his conviction. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
20/20
The Rose Petal Murder
This episode is sponsored by Get Contact. Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you? Well, these days, with all the spam text and robocalls from uncertain numbers, it feels like that era is long gone. That's how Get Contact comes in handy.
20/20
The Rose Petal Murder
It's a free mobile app that helps you identify unknown callers, block spam, and filter unwanted calls. So when you get a call, Get Contact's caller ID will instantly show you who's calling, even if they're not in your contacts. If the call's coming from a known robocaller, your phone will never even ring. Get Contact will filter it out and decline the call for you. It works for text, too.
20/20
The Rose Petal Murder
If you get a text from a number, Get Contact knows to be suspicious. It'll be sent right to spam instead of wasting your time with a notification. Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Get Contact is available now on the App Store and Google Play. You can download it today.
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The Rose Petal Murder
This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters. The official report said natural causes, but how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation?
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The Rose Petal Murder
Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice, accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA, a chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried.
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The Rose Petal Murder
With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County P.A. pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
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The Rose Petal Murder
This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out.
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The Rose Petal Murder
And David, as for John Mello and Bradley Post, both men remain in jail awaiting trials. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
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The Rose Petal Murder
This is Debra Roberts. To hear the backstory to this episode, join me for the 2020 After Show. Every Monday, I'm going to talk with correspondents, producers, some of those folks behind the scenes who bring you these stories. And you're going to hear bonus tape that's not necessarily included in the episode. That's 2020 The After Show, Mondays in your 2020 podcast feed.
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Run, Run, Run
But everything isn't what it seems when a decades-old family secret comes to light. An all-new 2020 begins right now.
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Run, Run, Run
David, she has exhausted her appeals, but she says she still plans to fight for her freedom. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Not the crime itself, but who the people were and how they got to that point, whether it's the victim or whether it might be the perpetrator. And the same thing with Sabrina Limon, too, just trying to get to know her. And, you know, we did, I think, a good job of painting that picture of her, too, as a person.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, her son. Yeah, the human touch, I think, is what's so important. And that's what you and our producers do so well. And Gary, you did such a great job on the story.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
We're going to do more of it, you and I. And as for Sabrina Limon, her federal petition challenging her convictions was denied, so she's still in prison. We'll do a follow-up, I'm sure, on this at some point.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming in. This is so rare that we actually get a chance to take a moment and breathe.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And talk about these stories that we cover, but it's always a pleasure to work with you.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Well, we'll be back next Monday with a new 2020 after show just for you. And we're curious, what questions do you have about 2020 that you might want us to answer on this podcast? Because we're here to do that for you. Are there things you've always wondered about? We're planning a listener mailbag episode when we can answer your questions. So reach out to us.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
We want to hear what you have to say and make them interesting questions, okay? Well, tune in on Friday nights at 9 to watch the latest 2020 show on ABC. Or, of course, you can listen Saturday in your 2020 podcast feed. 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Chertavian and Sasha Oslanian.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And, of course, we always have help from our producers like Gary Nguyen, Joseph Rhee, who's here on this one, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The Stolen Girl series premiere April 16th on Freeform and stream on Hulu.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Is this just a spiritual discussion or is it a roadmap to foul play? Well, police arrested Jonathan and Sabrina for the murder, but without enough evidence against her, Sabrina actually was able to walk free until that's a big until in a shocking twist. Jonathan agreed to testify against the woman who was his lover in exchange for pleading guilty to manslaughter.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And this all happened just days before the trial. Wow. It was a doozy. I reported this story with producer Gary Wynn, whom I've had the pleasure of working with for years. Gary, this is so great to have you actually in the studio to talk like this. Absolutely.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
What a story. I remember when you came to me about it, and we, you know, Joe Reed, the senior producer, was involved in it, and we were all talking about how bizarre this story was, and also the area, you know, out in this sort of remote part of California. You and I headed out to Tehachapi. I still have trouble pronouncing it, Tehachapi. Yes.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The couple at the center of it, Robert and Sabrina Limon, they appear to be living an idyllic life with their two kids in Silver Lakes, California. And by all accounts, they were an outgoing couple. They loved to party. They'd become a part of a tight-knit group of couples who called themselves the Wolfpack.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And I remember driving through the Mojave Desert, and it was just so bizarre.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
The sun came out. Yeah, you know, people often ask about how we, you know, shot our stories and what it was like on the ground. And it is sort of interesting. I mean, obviously, we're reporting on these very intense and tragic stories. But those little moments like your flood in the hotel and us, you know, and my driving there.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And, you know, literally, it looked like a moonscape when I was out there, you know, and you and I laughed a little bit about that. But This is a story that had mystery, infidelity, religion. I mean, it was one of those classics that almost felt like a TV show, right? You've got a couple who seem to have like that great marriage. But, you know, there were challenges in trying to report this, too.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
I mean, the crime took place in an industrial park, private property. You know, people don't realize what we have to go through to kind of get these things going.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, because it was like a big storage unit. And sometimes these things aren't the most attractive things that we're shooting. So you have to find the producers, you have to find a way to sort of bring them to life and make it make sense to the audience because otherwise, you know, visually it just doesn't, it doesn't tell the story.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
But then Robert was found murdered in a remote industrial complex where he had been working. The illusion of their perfect marriage and life just crumbled. As authorities investigated the death, they discovered that not only did the couple have an open marriage, but Sabrina was having a full-blown relationship with a man who was much younger, a firefighter named Jonathan Hearn.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts here, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're talking about one of our classic true crime tales that we bring you on 2020 on a regular basis. This one is a story of love, betrayal, and murder. The episode was called Unholy Matrimony.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, that played a big part in the story, that security camera footage.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
You get on the case. You're looking at all the crime scene pictures, videos, so forth. Now, when you're looking out here... Many times there's cameras everywhere. Do you even think that there might be surveillance cameras out here?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
You were just hoping that this would show you something. You didn't know what you were going to get.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And he was quite a character. Not only was he thorough, but I just remember he had this sunburn on his face because he had these lines on his face. He had his sunglasses on, but that's how hot it was out where we were.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah, I noticed that as soon as we sat down. But what a police officer, though.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
One of the things that our audience doesn't always know is even though they see all these like sweeping, interesting shots of the story, there's a lot going into putting all this together. And I remember you had drones out there.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So, you know, I want to talk about the clues in solving this case, but let's also talk about how we brought it to the audience because I remember being out there and you're placing me in this place and that place and trying to make sure we captured the camera. And you even had the camera rolling to take shots of us while we're out walking.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So talk about how you bring all of that together for the audience.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
In a very creative way. Well, let's get back to the story then. So, Gary, the detectives had evidence that the assailant actually fled on a motorcycle. It's a great visual, but we didn't have it. So how do you work to bring that part of the story to life?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And he rode a long time on that motorcycle to get to this location. Absolutely.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Then police learned, of course, This guy who's on the motorcycle was Sabrina's lover, Jonathan Hearn. And in the story, you learn how as they start to untangle, they realize that she's having this affair. He owned a motorcycle. All the details matched up. And on that camera, it was so interesting, that security camera, the person that they saw was limping.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
After Robert's murder, detectives decided to wiretap Sabrina and Jonathan's phones to listen in. Let's hear a clip from the show.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And this guy was faking a limp on the way into the industrial park. And that was also something that was significant because they weren't sure. Was it a disabled person? And they went looking for people in the neighborhood. Maybe it was somebody who was homeless. And that was a whole ordeal as well.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Would be out in that area. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh, so many great details. Well, when we come back, the kinds of small details that producers look for when they're out shooting a story for us that help tell the story of the victim and who they were in life. So stay with us.
20/20
The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
All right. We're back. And I'm here with Gary Nguyen, my partner in crime, as we can say, I guess, when we're out shooting these stories. Let's get back to our story, Gary. So after Sabrina Limon was first arrested and then released because police didn't really have enough evidence to charge her, talk about the community's reaction, because this was a small community.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
They were well known in this community and liked in this community. And it kind You kind of led a little bit of a racy life there with the kind of open marriage and all of that. But what about the community?
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So let's talk about Robert Limon, because he was a very well-loved guy. He was a devoted dad from everything that we heard. And the night that he died, his daughter was calling him because she wanted to talk to him about the first day of school, the next day. But of course, when somebody dies, they're very much of an offstage character.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
So you have to work a little harder to paint a picture of who they are. And you went out of the way to find people who knew him to paint a nice picture of who this guy was as a dad and a husband.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
Yeah. You know, those are the things I think that our viewers and then, of course, here are listeners really gravitate to because. These are people, you know, we do these stories and yes, they're crime stories, but these are real people. And I remember our producer, our executive producer was really touched by the football coach.
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The After Show: Unholy Matrimony
And that was a little element that we found that we just thought would shed light because this is somebody that this guy knew long ago, but it told you a little bit about who they are. And somebody said to me the other day, one of the things they find so interesting about these stories of true crime is that
20/20
The After Show: Bad Romance
in these love relationships is that you know at the root of it as we said there's often obsession things that have gone wrong and people who just either snap or just do the unthinkable why do you think people are so fascinated by these stories it's because of love and i know that sounds trite for some people but love is just this basic human emotion that we all want to feel
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Explosive situations. Well, that's why they call it a crime of passion, obviously. You know, you mentioned the messiness of that one. And another story that I covered, too, that was pretty messy but also involved all of this betrayal was one that we called Barefoot Witness. And this one still sticks with me, too, because I'm just blown away sometimes that people can actually—
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The After Show: Bad Romance
turn on someone that they purported to love right and not just turn on them but just become violent and this was the story of a school teacher lintel washington she was voted teacher of the year she was a woman who by all accounts was you know just a you know a great educator but sadly she didn't do so well in the department of you know picking men She was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
She really wanted love. In this case, when we start off the story, it begins with her three-year-old daughter who is discovered wandering alone in a parking lot in Baton Rouge with blood on her feet. And days later, an extensive search turns up her mom's body.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
I worked on this story, and I was just not only shocked, first of all, that there's a three-year-old child involved and who had to witness, you know, something horrible, but that the man that Lentel, you know, loved and thought loved her would actually wind up being charged here. So let's listen to a clip from this story.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
A new love, the promise of a new family. It's everything Lintel's been hoping for. But she has no idea what truly lies ahead. Something horrible has happened to Lintel Washington. And where is she? So you hear from her friends there who, you know, were advising her and felt so horrible. But when you think about Ryan, her child, her daughter caught in the wreckage of this murder.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And she gave the lead to investigators because she's so tiny, but she was able to say Mr. Robbie put the blood in the car and that started to lead police to him.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
yeah yeah and that trauma when you think about that well i got to meet the daughter years later and she seemed to be doing pretty well but you know that that's something she's going to live with well ryan we're going to take another quick break and when we come back we want to hear more about what's coming up in the bad romance series
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The After Show: Bad Romance
We're back with Ryan Smith. And Ryan, this has been so intriguing talking about these stories that you and I cover. And I'm just amazed that people stop you on the street because they feel so connected to these stories.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
You're absolutely right. And people often want to know about the particular people that we interview. And I don't know how you feel about it, but, you know, at the end of the day, these are horrible crimes. They are traumatic situations. People's lives have been blown up as a result and forever changed.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And we're talking to them about deeply personal, intimate matters, oftentimes about their personal lives and how they either didn't see it coming or just how it's affected them. How about you in covering those interviews? Because for me, there are times I leave them kind of shaken.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah, I agree with you. And sometimes people have said to me, too, that they felt a sense of catharsis afterwards. I mean, there's no greater compliment to me when I'm doing an interview with someone who has endured something so horrible than when they say afterwards, you made this so much easier than I thought it would have been. And it was so it's a relief to share my story.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And you made me feel so much better doing it. That's the greatest compliment, right?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
I totally agree with you. Well, you've got a lot more coming up. We're just a little more than halfway through the series. You've got three more episodes to go. Anyone that really is intriguing to you or has captured your attention more than others?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah, yeah. We've seen pictures of her in court. I remember when this story first broke. It was during the pandemic, actually. I remember following it and maybe doing a report or two on Good Morning America. But there's so much to this, as you said, still unfolding, so much to keep an eye on. And then, of course, I have to throw in that you're a lawyer as well.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
So you look at these stories from a very different point of view oftentimes when you're sitting down, I'm sure.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah, that makes such a difference. Well, you bring a different perspective, and it's always such a pleasure to talk with you. So thanks so much for joining us. And that's going to do it for us today. We thank you for joining us. Make sure to tune in to the rest of the Bad Romance series Tuesdays at 10 p.m. on ABC. And as always, tune in to 2020 Friday nights at 9 o'clock.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shatavian and Sasha Oslanian, with thanks to Anne Reynolds, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. And Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah, I agree with you. And you and I can peel back and look at some of the ones that we've covered. But as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about a story that I covered in Minnesota where someone actually betrayed his wife. And this guy had never been in trouble, in fact, was quite religious. And they're supposed to be going to church that morning when she's killed.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
What do you make of the motives? Because oftentimes these are folks who are trying to either cover their tracks or sometimes they're involved in duplicitous relationships. Talk to me a little bit about the motives.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Hi there, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts, and today we've got a special series to explore, 2020's limited series Bad Romance. It recently returned for its second season Tuesday nights on ABC through May 13th.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And they feel boxed in. Yeah, they feel boxed in. You make a great point. That's exactly right. That's what gets me. And you raise an interesting point when you talk about these double lives. I mean, those are the things of TV dramas, right?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
One of the ones that, of course, I remember so well is we call it Love You to Death, is this case of Molly Watson, who was found murdered on a dark country road. She was getting ready to get married. Her new marriage license was in her car. Her boyfriend of seven years, so she'd been seeing somebody for seven years, and she's got her new license there in the back of the car.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And when police find her, they feel like they're going to go and drop this horrible news on this fiancé who's going to be just devastated. And they shockingly discovered his wife, his wife at home, that he's got a double life. I was the correspondent on this story, and I still think about it to this day for a lot of reasons. But let's listen to a clip.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
I talked to Melanie Addy, who is the ex-wife of the perpetrator, James Addy, and it was the first time she had actually given an interview. Let's take a listen. The police tell you that your husband has a dead fiancé?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And he's engaged to the one? Yeah. And you're learning all of this in one night?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
I was, you know, the incredulity because, you know, you have to think that people are going to wonder if you've been married to somebody for 23 years, did you see any signs, you know? And I did go into that thinking, you know, come on, you had to have seen something. I was a little surprised at how matter of fact she was about it. She was clearly still very hurt by it.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Now, as you can probably guess from the title, these are stories of people who have lost their lives at the hands of those who they thought would love them forever. We're going to look at the consequences of obsession, manipulation and take a look at the dark side of love. And joining me to discuss this combustible mix of love and true crime is
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The After Show: Bad Romance
But she absolutely stood by her story that she, you know, they had problems in their marriage and, you know, they weren't necessarily probably on the best of terms. You know, he went his way. She would go to bed early. You know, they didn't have a great marriage. But she never, ever would have imagined. And Ryan, remember, he worked at a prison.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And so, you know, this is somebody you would expect to at least think about, you know, right and wrong and so forth. So I just I wanted to sort of represent the viewer there with those questions and the shock of what she told me. First of all, my heart went out to her because her life just blew up as she knew it. But wow is right.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah. And, you know, what was interesting too about this story is that, you know, clearly they had problems in their marriage because he would go out, you know, supposedly with his buddies. And on this particular night, he went out with his buddies. But he went to great lengths to, you know, cover his tracks.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
He would say he was going off to some kind of a convention or some kind of a meeting out of town. Of course, he's with Molly. This relationship goes on. And this is the part, I think, that intrigues people so much is that probably James Addy was content to just continue this affair. But Molly, with no knowledge, of course, that this guy is living a double life, wants to get married.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And so he is going to honor that at a certain point. You know, she's pushing, she's pushing, she wants to get married, and he's got to figure it out. So he goes so far as to get the marriage license, and, you know, he's caught on videotape. You see the two of them on surveillance tape going to the office to go get the marriage license, and you know his mind is spinning. What am I going to do?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
What am I going to do? And that's the kind of stuff I think that people find so intriguing. But Ryan, one of the things that I so enjoy about this kind of a conversation, us getting a chance to talk about these stories that we cover, is sharing with our viewers and our listeners the things that happen behind the scenes, right?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Whether we're struggling to work a story and get some video that maybe something goes wrong or, you know, those kinds of things. But in this particular instance... This was one I will never forget. We are interviewing Melanie Addy, and we have a hair and makeup team there to touch her up, to touch me up.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
So we're sitting there doing this interview, and after we finish, when I go back behind the scenes to say something to them, they both, these two women, are standing there. Their face is almost ashen, and they said, we have something to tell you. We have to tell you something. And I said, what is that? We knew Molly. We were the hair and makeup team hired for her wedding. We knew this woman.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
We knew something happened to her. We never knew what. And then they proceed to play the last audio clip they have of her on their cell phone, you know, talking about the wedding.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
is abc news contributor and my friend ryan smith hi ryan deborah it's so good to talk to you good to talk to you i had to resist the urge to say and joining me as somebody who can talk about obsessive you know whatever in life because that's not quite the case but you are of course obsessed with 2020 and a lot of these stories you and i have worked on a lot of them together it's great to see you and i'm glad we can talk about this
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The After Show: Bad Romance
I mean, it was stunning. We didn't get a chance to put that in our piece, but it was just like, what?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And they had no idea because they didn't know what had happened to her. They didn't know what story we were there covering. So as they're hearing all of this unfold, they're thinking, wait a second, this is familiar. So these unusual things happen to us sometimes behind the scenes. And that I have to say is probably one of the strangest ones for me.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
That's mind blowing. So, you know, I just thought you'd get a kick out of hearing it. Well, listen, let's take a quick break because when we come back, there are more stories about double lives and crimes of passion from our Bad Romance series. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you? Well, these days, with all the spam text and robocalls from uncertain numbers, it feels like that era is long gone. That's how Get Contact comes in handy.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
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The After Show: Bad Romance
If you get a text from a number, Get Contact knows to be suspicious. It'll be sent right to spam instead of wasting your time with a notification. Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Get Contact is available now on the App Store and Google Play. You can download it today.
20/20
The After Show: Bad Romance
Welcome back to the 2020 After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts here with Ryan Smith, my pal and colleague here at 2020. And Ryan, one of the stories you presented we have called Betrayed, which aired last week. And it's the story of Angel Goyena, who was murdered in her home with her mom. While planning her wedding to David Hoshaw and investigators are struggling to find clues.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And then they get these letters, these bizarre letters sent to police by somebody claiming to have killed both of the women. Let's take a listen.
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Yeah, me too. Well, you know, at the heart of these stories, and we see a lot of overlap in these stories, so clearly we had enough, sadly, I guess you could say, to put them all together and sort of look at them through a bigger lens in this series called Bad Romance. And one of the things to me that is so compelling is
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The After Show: Bad Romance
Chilling stuff. David Hoshaw is ultimately revealed to be the killer. And similar to the last story we talked about, he's leading a double life. But these letters, these haunting letters taunting police, Ryan, what was that all about?
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The After Show: Bad Romance
And instead, he's drawing them closer to him. Exactly. And that's what's interesting. I'm sure you see this and you feel this all the time when we're examining these stories. And you're thinking, how is it people think that they're going to get away with this? In this case, if he hadn't sent the letters, he might have actually gone for a long time getting away with it.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Now, nearly a decade later, Sherry Papini is the subject of a new documentary where she gives her account of what she says happened. So, joining me now to dig into this story and 2020's long reporting on it is senior producer Sean Dooley. Hello, Sean. Hi, Deb. Good to be here. Good to be with you. You've been with us, obviously, here at 2020 for so long.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Yeah, it didn't sit well with people. And what about just the other fallout? Because she's got children. I'm sure the community, their neighborhood. I mean, what was that like, the fallout for their family?
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
What's the status? So they divorced. They still have children together, Keith and Sherry. Have they found any way to get along? What is the latest between them as a family?
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And we're learning, too, and we do learn in our 2020 episode about why she would do this kind of thing. I mean, what was going on for her?
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Well, you just teed it up perfectly for me, Sean, because just ahead, a new chapter in this ever-changing story. Sherry is the subject of a new documentary. So the person at the center of the story is actually finally going to speak out.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
You and I are always catching up in the hallway on all these different stories. But now we get a chance to talk face-to-face about this story that you senior produced along with Matt Gutman. Correct. Who reported on it. Correct, yeah. Sean, people, I just remember when this story happened. And I think I remember, of course, my jaw dropping at the whole prospect of it. But
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
I'm back now with Sean Dooley, our senior producer here at 2020, who worked alongside Matt Gutman on this story with Sherry Papini. Nobody had heard from her. We all wanted to know her story. Of course, police at that point, when we started working on this story for the second time. She strongly felt that her story wasn't true.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
People have wanted to hear from her for a long time, and now they're going to hear from her in a documentary, Sean.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Discovery ID has a four hour doc coming out and it launches on Memorial Day and 2020 got a chance to talk to the filmmaker Nicole Rittenmeyer. And this had to have been really interesting to you to hear her story.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And we should clarify that police believed that she willingly, you know, stayed with this guy and then at a certain point said she missed her children and wanted to leave.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
You know, when you think about, you know, a story like that, right, that a mom has been abducted. And although we've seen a lot of stories where things have gone sideways, so I sort of wondered about it, but we were following it from the very beginning. And I don't know, I mean, were there doubts in the beginning?
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Well, she finally speaks out to the filmmaker with this documentary. So let's listen to 2020's conversation with Nicole Rittenmeyer about what she said about interviewing Sherry Papini.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
One of the things the film does is to have Sherry take a lie detector test.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And it'll be interesting to see now that she is going back on the story that she told, whether there could be some repercussions because of that. Now she's saying she signed a document and admitted to something that she says isn't true. So...
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
So that may be the end of it, but not the end of the fascination with this case. Well, that's it for the 2020 After Show. Sean, such a pleasure to have you here.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
It's always fun, right? So for once, we took our hallway conversation to the actual microphone, and you all got a chance to hear how we report these stories. That's it for the 2020 After Show. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget, on Friday nights, you can catch all new broadcast episodes of 2020 at 9 p.m. Eastern on ABC.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Our podcast is produced by Amira Williams and Sasha Oslanian with Brian Mazursky and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, director of podcasting at ABC Audio, and Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And what did people say about this mom? I mean, she was, I guess, known to be a doting mother, right? They seem to have a solid marriage from what friends told us.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And her husband actually told us that, too. Well, let's play a clip from that 2016 show when Keith, her husband, describes reuniting with his wife Sherry at the hospital.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Hello, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts with 2020 The After Show. This was a story that horrified people all around the country. A young mom claiming that she had been abducted, held hostage and even branded during her captivity. Well, then her story fell apart.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
His voice is just dripping with emotion. Sean, at the time, you couldn't talk to law enforcement, but we had heard the story from her. And, you know, he talks about how could people do this to people. And she had told a story that she had been abducted and that these two women had held her and she was sort of somewhat still kind of bound when she was found.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Well, the two women abducting her, that sounded a little strange. I remember thinking that.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Like the book, like the famous book. Exactly.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
So they wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Yeah. And so a year goes by and then another year goes by. And clearly people were sort of wondering what happened here. And then all of a sudden, Sherry Papini goes from victim to suspect. What specifically did, you know, when did you start to find out that, I mean, didn't add up, of course, the whole notion of maybe she was, you know, there was a cult or something.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
That's what you think about when there's branding. What kinds of things didn't add up that police began to question? Yeah.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Well, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, Sherry's confession. But it's not the end of the story.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
I'm back now with Sean Dooley, a senior producer here at 2020, and we're talking about the case of Sherry Papini, which Sean worked on along with correspondent Matt Gutman. Many times police have a suspicion. I've covered stories where they kind of didn't really believe the alleged victim. And then maybe within a year or so, this took six years to figure out that she wasn't truthful. Yeah.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
And poor Keith, he really was standing by her. Well, we've got a clip from the 2020 that aired in 2024 where Keith talks with Matt Gutman about feeling that something wasn't quite right about his wife's story.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Such a confusing mix of emotions for this guy and the mom of his children. She presents as somebody who had been abused. Clearly now police are starting to think she did this to herself. That had to be really difficult for him.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Let's talk about the lie that she told. I mean, police at this point are starting to believe that there are lies here. Two Latino women. You know, we've all heard these stories before where a person of color was was fingered as the perpetrator. And it turns out somebody completely lied. This really was a very upsetting moment for those in the Latino community. Right.
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The After Show: Sherri Papini: Where the Truth Lies
Because she just completely made this up. And why would she mention two Latino women? Exactly.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman, right? You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But at the end of the day, they did believe her and her testimony was credible.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Right. Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Thanks for having us. This is kind of wild. We're actually getting to talk in this formal way. So, Denise, let me start with you because you and I have worked on countless stories together and you have this knack for digging, digging, digging into the old files and finding things that maybe either we thought.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020, along with John Quinones. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show, because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories, too, where we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And maybe, Samantha, you can jump in on this.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Talk about what that perspective was like, you know, working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Denise, what about Matt and Carrie's daughters? Because at the core of this case, they're children who have lost their mother and now lost their father, essentially, because he's away in prison. Talk to us a little bit about Carrie's daughters.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. Yeah. Something really, really heartbreaking. When you are covering these stories, Denise, and I think sometimes our viewers and in this case, our listeners are wondering how it affects you. I mean, your mom, we talked about this earlier. And these girls, I mean, what was that like for you as a mom and a producer to hear their story?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
was sort of interesting at the time, or maybe not as much, and then you find something new. So what is it about this story? And of course, we've covered a lot of stories that involve hypocrisy and, you know, ministers in the church and all of that. But what was it about this one?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, yeah. And we take that with us too. So we're thinking about these stories long after they're done. Samantha, this was an interesting one for you. A lot of work, a lot of digging, carrying around this dummy. You've worked on a lot of stories here at 2020. Is this one that kind of will stick with you for a while?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, there are victims out there when we cover these stories and we can't forget about them. Samantha, Denise, this was a lot of fun. We'll have to do more of this. Yes, thank you, Deborah. Of course, thanks for doing this. Denise Martinez-Ramundo is a producer for 2020, and Samantha Wanderer is an associate producer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Okay, that does it for us for 2020 The After Show. This time, we hope you're going to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020, of course, on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Chertavian, Sasha Azlanian, and Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We also had help this week from Amira Williams and Meg Fierro.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. And we should add that Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio and Laura Mayer, executive producer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And in small town Texas, too. So you're talking a southern town, a fairly youngish preacher with his family. And, you know, that just sort of shocked everybody. It shocked everybody in the community.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Now, Samantha, you were deeply involved in this story from the beginning, and you dug through all of the footage. And we're going to talk about that and how that made such a difference. But tell me about what drew you to this one.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And when you approach this, you know, again, as I said to Denise, you know, you're talking small town America and you've got to kind of dig into that psyche, too, of just how how shocking this is to people when something like this is revealed.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
This happened back in 2006. And, you know, when we go way back, it's sort of hard sometimes when we're trying to look into this, but archival footage played a big part of this. We're talking about this man who was convicted, his time in prison. Tell me all about that and going back in time.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
So when Carrie died of what appeared to be suicide, the community rallied around the grief-stricken pastor. But Carrie's family didn't. They suspected that something was amiss. Calling themselves the Charlie's Angels of Waco, they launched their own investigation revealing something that was pretty shocking in this church community. Lies and adultery.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But at that time, of course, he's saying he had nothing to do with it and I have nothing to hide, right?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Tell us a little bit about him because we talked about in the piece how he was polite and soft-spoken. The community was sort of rallying behind him.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
But when you're looking through, Samantha, all these tapes and you're seeing things sort of evolve over time, tell me a little bit about that. You've got to digitize this video. You're working with attorneys. People don't really know how much work goes in. They see what we put on the air. They don't know what's going on behind the scenes for us to be able to bring it.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and on Friday night, we brought you a show called Dirty Little Secret. Matt Baker was a charismatic minister in Hewitt, Texas, and he was leading a life at the center of his community along with his wife, Carrie Baker, who was a Sunday school teacher at the church. They had two little girls.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And this story was very largely dependent on all this video.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And that's what's interesting about this program because we get a chance now on this podcast to give people a taste of some things that we didn't put in our show, in our program. So here's some material from the archive from a 2007 interview with Matt Baker before his trial and before he was convicted, which didn't make it into our program. Take a listen.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And his voice, I mean, you know, of course, you guys got to see more of him, but to just even hear his voice, it just sounds so small town, southern guy, innocent. Denise, when you're combing through the archives, give people a sense of how we decide, like
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
What to present and how we're going to reveal his personality, you know, as Samantha was just saying, just there was all kinds of stuff that even she didn't even know we had and we uncovered like emails and things. Give us a sense of what that's all about.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And ultimately, of course, they helped law enforcement uncover Matt's plot to kill his wife. Here's a clip from the show.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And we were talking about how, you know, obviously with our 47 year history, I mean, we have all kinds of tapes that sometimes we're able to find every now and again there's a problem. But we want to make it clear that, you know, you're capturing developments along the way and also both sides. Right.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Talk about Carrie's family, too, because they played a big part in this and they call themselves Charlie's Angels. What was that all about?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Which we see a lot. You and I have covered stories before where people have just stayed on it and stayed on it. And that's what actually brought cases to court. What did you make of the family and how have they managed to sort of hold up? And what was their demeanor like as they went through this whole process?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's always so fascinating when there's that turning point for people in these cases. All right. Well, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, what our 2020 team put together to challenge Matt's claims and just how improbable they really were.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We are back. All right. So much of this program featured archival tape. But you guys also got new interviews to round out the picture of this case. And one moment that just stood out to me was a test we did with Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, another Matt. And this was pretty creative, Denise. I mean, we do a lot of creative things here in the field. But tell us about this idea about the dummy.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
We all hung on those words, too, on last week's 2020. On today's 2020 After Show, I get the pleasure to talk to 2020 producer Denise Martinez-Ramundo, who I normally talk to in the field, but today we get to talk a little more formally, and associate producer Samantha Wunderer.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And tell us what that was that they were trying to unfold.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
And that was really fascinating. So, Samantha, talk about that because you were in charge of this very heavy replica, this dummy, which was just under 200 pounds, right?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
So he helped you lift this like it was nothing. And the whole goal was for John Quinones, our reporter, to sit there and observe and tell me what that was all about. So they're going to try to hurriedly see if they can beat the clock in terms of like dressing this dummy and showing us how prosecutors were able to reveal in the trial that it didn't seem plausible.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And that was that was critical, Denise, too. I mean, and for us, talk to us a little bit about why we choose to do these things, because I think one of the things our listeners find intriguing is how we got to that point and why we thought that was important. So why did we think that would make such a difference in our story?
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
They both were a big part of telling this story, sifting through hours of archival interviews 2020 conducted over the years, really, with Matt Baker, and speaking to new voices to help John Quinones take a fresh look at this case. So welcome to both of you.
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The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us again. Let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
So then he decides to help police and he helps solve this case as you said he actually goes undercover and tapes her and you know we learned that of course then she's convicted. Tell us where the case is now Matt because she's tried to appeal a couple times.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
She'll spend the rest of her life in prison. What a story, Matt. You did such a great job covering this. So thanks so much for being with me today, Matt. Great seeing you or talking to you anyway. It was fun. Same here. Matt Gutman is the chief national correspondent for ABC News. Don't forget, of course, to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Chertavian, Sasha Aslanian, with Joseph Reed, Tom Berman, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Ryder. Theme music by Evan Viola and Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Rapper Sean Diddy Combs was a kingmaker. He had wealth, fame, and power.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
I'm Brian Buckmeyer, an ABC News legal contributor. As Diddy heads to trial, we trace his remarkable rise and fall, and what could be next. Listen to Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, a new series from ABC Audio. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
And everybody is talking about this case and what happened. And, of course, police go undercover to try to figure out what happened. So before you and I get deeper into it, let's take a listen to some of the moments from your reporting, including some of the folks who are closest to him and everything in the aftermath of the winning ticket.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Folks who are in his orbit. I mean, Matt, this is just unbelievable when you think about all of this. As you said, you almost can't make this stuff up. And I know Lakeland, Florida, a little bit. I reported in Florida over the years and spent some time. Give us a sense of what somebody in that area would be dealing with. I mean, it's a small town. Everybody knows you. I mean, what was that like?
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
What were your impressions of the town and what Abraham was facing?
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Joining me to talk about this is the fabulous Matt Gutman, our chief national correspondent here at ABC News, who reported Friday night's 2020 episode. Hi, Matt.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Hi there, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and boy, we've got a great episode for you today because have you ever just thought, wow, wouldn't life be great if I won the lottery? You might think twice after hearing about our most recent 2020 story about Abraham Shakespeare, the Florida lottery winner who was tragically murdered for his winnings.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
I'm good. Welcome. Welcome. Before we jump into this, I mean, first of all, so many people know you for just crisscrossing not just the country, but the world. I mean, from the wildfires in California, you're in the Middle East a lot reporting over there. Give us a sense of what it's like as you are. I mean, I thought I was busy. But man.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Yeah. And so many of us, of course, as reporters have reported on stories either kind of adjacent to this. When you talk about in the piece, the curse of the lottery, it's kind of that trope, that idea that, yeah, everybody would love to win millions of dollars, but it can just sort of ruin your life. And in this case, it was devastating. Within three years, all of a sudden, this guy is missing.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
And that was one of the twists and turns in this story, too, because for months he's gone and their text and D.D. is, of course, sort of setting these up. We're going to take a quick break. And, Matt, we're going to talk about your thrilling sit down interview with that convicted killer of Abraham Shakespeare. Stay with us. This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters. The official report said natural causes. But how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation? Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice. Accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
From Wondery comes Death County, PA. A chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison. And powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Welcome back to 2020 The After Show, where I'm talking with my colleague and friend, Matt Gutman. Matt, one of the most striking things about our program to me was that interview you did with Dee Dee Moore while she was behind bars in prison. I mean, she was professing her innocence. What was that like for you to sit there?
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Your producer, Tom Berman, said your eyes were about to pop out of your head. Well, hold on a second, Matt, because I want to play an extended clip from your interview with Dee Dee Moore. Let's take a listen.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Thank you so much for having me. And he started giving back, as many people say they would love to do if they got this kind of money. But after a while, friends started to notice that he just seemed to feel burdened. You know, everybody had their hands out wanting some of his money. And then three years after the lottery success happened. He mysteriously disappears.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
Of course. Of course. Well, what's so sad about it when you think about it, too? This man had all this money, and at the end, she's manipulating him out of a million dollars, which is all he had left. Matt, hold on a second. We're going to take one more break. After that, the undercover tactics that lead law enforcement right to the body of Abraham Shakespeare. So stick around.
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The After Show: Unlucky Numbers
We are back with Matt Gutman talking about the episode of Abraham Shakespeare. Matt, this story was so bizarre. As you said, you almost can't make this up. And it was sort of cracked for law enforcement when Greg Smith, whom you mentioned earlier, who was an acquaintance of Abraham Shakespeare, and he actually went undercover with police to try to help solve this case.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
And they had to actually identify their sister's body after the murder because the mom lived in Georgia at the time. And they had to go and deal with this. And it was just awful. In fact, they didn't want to do an interview with me. They didn't want to. It's been so difficult. And that's one of the things I'm proud of at 2020. When we do these stories, it's not just about the crime.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
It's about the human element, the families, how they were impacted. And you reached out to these guys and they still carry this pain, right?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Absolutely. Well, As I said, it can take a toll on these families. And one of the things we like to do on this podcast is we like to give you information and little clips that you didn't hear, we didn't share in the show. So let's hear a clip of our interview with Joan, something that didn't make it into our 2020 program, but it really stuck with us.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Such a vulnerable moment. And clearly she had this realization and made some adjustments in her life, right?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Yeah. And her husband, Jonna's father, wears a picture of her on his shirts. I mean, every day. Every day. And he said he's done that since the very beginning.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Yeah, yeah, it's a story. I mean, I have a friend who I had met when I was in Knoxville years ago who I caught up with for coffee, and she knows this story. I mean, people in that community. Blue, you do so many of these stories, and you and I together have done a lot of them, but some kind of stick with you and haunt you a little bit. How about this one for you?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
there was an answer there was an answer but it took a very long time and blue you know this is almost like the two of us when we drive along when you and i are off covering these stories and we're in the car and you and i get to talk about not only the background but what your thoughts were my thought so we're kind of like in the car all over again the two of us and i remember you got us on the one of the apps and got us turned right back around we we
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
And think about the human element of who they might have affected. Well, Blue, you do such a great job on these stories. And before we go, I'm just sort of curious, what motivates you? Because you find a lot of these stories. You pitch this particular one. I mean, what are you looking for when you're digging around for these stories?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Yeah. Yeah. But when you talk about that part of it, it's more than just the crime. It's about what happens as a result. The human spirit. The human spirit. And you are so good at doing that, Blue. Maybe it's because you're a southerner, just like I am.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
yes maybe that makes us uniquely qualified to be able to go in and help people sort of process a lot of this well blue it was such an important story about what a mom's love can do and you do such a great job thank you for covering this and the human heart that you put behind your coverage of this this case it just i know it means a lot to the family as well it's always a pleasure to work with you blue browning is a producer with 2020 so it's always great blue thanks so much for swinging by
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, remember to tune in Friday nights at 9 Eastern for all new episodes of 2020. And you can still catch A Bad Romance on Tuesday nights at 9 for a few more weeks. The 2020 After Show is produced by Amira Williams and Sasha Aslanian with Joseph Rhee, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
turned off the wrong road. And I just found ways and we found our way back on. But when I came to you to meet up with you at Joan's home in Tennessee, as I said, I had worked in Knoxville before. And so I felt a connection in a way to the community. And even though I didn't know her story, to her. And I remember stepping into her doorway and meeting her and her husband. And
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
It was just really striking to me to get to know her. Just this lovely woman who, you know, was carrying her heartache still in her hand, but also her daughter's presence throughout the house. I mean, mementos everywhere, even though it had been 20 years. So let's take a listen from the show and we'll talk more about that. I see memories of Jonna everywhere in the house, right? Yes.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
That's beautiful. This is the dress. The wedding gown. All the beading.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
That was such a touching moment to me. And I have to tell you, Blue, when you had described Joan and you said she had all these mementos in the house and she had Jonah's room, I thought it was kind of almost just her tribute. She can't forget her only daughter, you know?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're going to talk a little bit more about the mom who became a warrior to find her daughter's killer. I reported on this story on Friday night's edition of 2020. Joan Berry, whose daughter, Jonna, was stabbed to death when she was a 21-year-old student at UT, the University of Tennessee.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Yeah. Oh, yeah. She did her daughter's nails before she was in the coffin because she did that kind of thing. But it was like a last little moment that she could give something to her daughter, a last little, you know, sort of gift, I guess, in a way to daughter to clean her hands and to do her. Oh, my God. It broke my heart.
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And this woman, on the one hand, yes, she's heartbroken, but she's so strong, too. And, you know, one of the things, Blue, that people don't necessarily always understand is when we're doing these stories, and this one goes back 20 years. This is before cell phones were just ubiquitous and everybody's taking pictures and you can find them on their social media.
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That didn't happen with Jonna because that didn't exist at the time. So you really had to dig to try to find not only the photos, but just, you know, anything that would help bring her to life for us, but also respecting her mom's heartbreak while you're doing it. How do you do that?
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Yeah, yeah. And something maybe painful, but also maybe comforting to her as well. You've done a lot of this digging and everything, and that's the only way we can paint a picture.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, also what was touching, too, is that even though this happened a long time ago, Joan is still a crusader. And DNA was a big part of this story because when – The police were investigating. They had unknown DNA. So we're going to take a quick break.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
And when we come back, we're going to talk about how Joan helped change laws surrounding one of our most powerful crime-solving tools, which is DNA. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact. Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, these days, with all the spam text and robocalls from uncertain numbers, it feels like that era is long gone. That's how Get Contact comes in handy. It's a free mobile app that helps you identify unknown callers, block spam, and filter unwanted calls. So when you get a call, GetContact's caller ID will instantly show you who's calling, even if they're not in your contacts.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
There was no suspect and no arrest for years. And Joan just became consumed by this whole thought of who could do something like this so vicious to her daughter and what laws needed to change to make it a little easier to solve these kinds of crimes. So today we're going to dig into it. And joining me is my colleague, my friend, Blue Browning. Hey, Blue. Hello.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
If the call's coming from a known robocaller, your phone will never even ring. GetContact will filter it out and decline the call for you. It works for text, too. If you get a text from a number, GetContact knows to be suspicious. It'll be sent right to spam instead of wasting your time with a notification.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Get Contact is available now on the App Store and Google Play. You can download it today. I am back with Blue Browning, one of our producers here at 2020, who worked with me on this most recent story.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Blue, we got into the advocacy that Joan Berry has done around DNA after being so frustrated with the slow progress in the investigation of her daughter, Jonna's murder. And of course, in the show, we touched on that. But I mean, she has done so much and continues even still to and people know her. They know her name because she got involved in state government.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, she was so surprised because one of the things she discovered, and if you saw Friday's show, you saw this, that she, you know, at that time in Tennessee and a number of other states, when somebody is arrested, they didn't necessarily collect the DNA, only if they were convicted.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
And so she got that changed so that that way they would have this pool to be able to draw from, because that's why it took so long to find her killer, Jonas' killer.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Yeah. And maybe she didn't necessarily lead to those changes, but things started to roll and her influence in Tennessee and the knowledge of it probably did have ultimately some impact someplace.
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She's a warrior. She really is. And I mean, this is a woman who was sort of in the hairdressing field and the beauty field and all of that. This wasn't her natural inclination, but because of her daughter's death. And we've seen that so many times in these stories. A parent or a relative has to step up and become an advocate.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, I drove with Joan to go visit the TBI, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, to see the DNA lab. And it's named for Jonna. And here's what's interesting. Jennifer Millsaps, who runs that lab, was there at that time 20 years later. You informed me of that in the car when we were driving and why that was so significant.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Oh, good to be with you. And you really are a partner in crime when we come to these stories because you and I have worked on a lot together. This story was actually somewhere you lived. Yeah, yeah, exactly. University of Tennessee. I didn't go to school there, but I worked in Knoxville and I was so familiar with that area.
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Yeah. Yeah. They really have seen a lot of change. And Jennifer was so interesting because she was very matter of fact, you know, she's a lab kind of person. But she said that she was really shaken. I mean, she remembered feeling that she wanted to help solve this murder of this young girl. Everybody in the community was talking about this. And so it really impacted her.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
What about law enforcement? Because you began making calls on this story. You're digging into what was happening at the time. Of course, you got these detectives to talk to us. But what did you hear from them about the case?
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Yeah. Yeah. I remember when she talked to me about that and she said she was so shaken up by the whole thing, even though, you know, she had to be strong on the job, but she was pretty new to the job.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
And she went home and she had her child and she went to go spend the night with her mom because she was just so shaken up because this community and a lot of times when we do these stories, oftentimes they're in smaller communities and they don't see these kinds of crimes. So you and I talk to people who haven't encountered these kinds of things before. Exactly.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Well, we know that when they are working on these cases, whether they're advocates or, you know, law enforcement, it can take a toll. So we're going to talk more about that, what we learned when we come back. This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
The official report said natural causes. But how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation? Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice. Accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA. A chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
But how did you wind up thinking about this story and thinking it would work for 2020?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison. And powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. This is the next phase in my therapeutic work.
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
This is safe. We take you back to a core trauma. Breathe in. Breathe out. She is manipulating us. Breathe in. Breathe out. Why are you resisting? Is it too late to get a refund?
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The After Show: Blood on the Door
We are back. Blue and I are talking about the case of Jonna Berry, the 21-year-old student who was murdered all these years ago. And her mom has become an advocate. But, Blue, one of the things we also discovered, and I certainly talked to her mom about, is that she had two sons. Also, in addition to Jonna, Jonna had two brothers.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
They had a little child together, a four-year-old, but he had teen children from a previous marriage. And the idea, I mean, this is the thing that gets me about this story. I mean, we hear, you and I cover so many of these stories where there are couples that are at odds and certainly, you know, very viciously at odds, but to involve teen children. So he takes his son that night with him.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And could they tell that the kids weren't being truthful?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And that connected him because he had those boots. So the boy starts to crack, but he's trying to protect—that's his stepmother. Lauren is his stepmother. Right. And Paul is his father. This poor kid. Yeah. That's a lot for a 15-year-old.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What follows is a dogged investigation by a pair of local police officers, telltale boot prints in the snow, an ice fisher who actually finds evidence, The search leads to Paul DeWise, Lauren's estranged husband. If you follow our shows, you know that wouldn't be a big surprise. But how it all happens is and his 15 year old son, Joe, his son from his first marriage.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
John, Lauren was killed by her estranged husband, of course. The whole notion that she was living this life of abuse, do people know this?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, we've seen that. You and I have seen that in stories we've covered. Did you get a sense of... What she endured in the marriage.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, she clearly had fled and was trying to find safety. You asked Ashley actually about this. Let's listen to a clip.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We talk about the four-year-old right now being raised by relatives.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What kind of an impact, John, you and I both when we go to these communities sometimes can really kind of get the feel, especially after you've talked to so many different people in a community. You get a feel for what a crime like this has done to a community. This was one that was known to be, I guess, peaceful and beautiful. And then they're shattered with this kind of horrific situation.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
What kind of impact did this have on that community and even all these years later?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
things can happen, but also too that powerful lesson about domestic abuse and that people actually can take away from that.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We talk about the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799-SAFE, so people can actually call because there is something that you can take away from the story too, aside from the innocence that was shattered, but an awakening too about domestic violence and how tragically it can actually affect us all.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, John, you know, you and I cover so many of these stories and oftentimes we go to, you know, corners of the country, corners of the world, sometimes in your case. Did you take away, sometimes I take away a feeling from a story after I've done something.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I take away a feeling from the people or I did a story once in Florida and these two women police officers were just such tough, amazing women. And I sort of went away thinking about how they were so devoted and dedicated to Did you take a feeling away from this particular one?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
The human spirit. Yeah. I love it. Triumphs. Well, John Quinones, how great to have you on our inaugural behind-the-scenes broadcast.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
I love it. This is it. This is it. Well, you know, you and I have been at this a long time, and it's great to finally sit down and get a chance to chat.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
We definitely will. Thank you so much for coming in and doing this. Well, that's our program for today. John, I can't thank you enough for being here. The 2020 After Show will be back in your feed next Monday with more analysis and behind-the-scenes stories from 2020. BTS, as they say these days, behind the scenes.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Now, this poor kid is a teenager. John, there are so many elements to this story. I just, what was it about this one initially that you really felt so compelled to jump into?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Tune in on Friday nights, of course, at 9 o'clock for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. And I should also point out that our show is produced by Sasha Aslanian and Cameron Chertavian. Special thanks to Joe Diaz and Brian Mazurski of 2020. Laura Mayer is the executive producer of ABC Audio.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, that's what I wanted to ask you because it was a long time in the making. How did that change the reporting, though? Because when you wait five years, other things happen. People change their minds. Stories sort of change, maybe.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people close up. Sometimes people are ready to talk right away. But the idea, this woman survives this tragic shooting, loses her friend. And why do you think finally, I mean, obviously she had healed a little bit from her wounds, I guess, but psychologically, I mean, why did she feel ready to process and talk about it on camera?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Every Monday, the 2020 After Show will take you behind the scenes of our most recent program, and we will also play exclusive audio that you won't hear on Friday's show. As you know, we've been bringing hard-hitting investigative reporting for nearly five decades. I wasn't here all five decades, let me tell you. I've only been here for a couple of them.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Well, if you're in Montana, of course, you probably do love the outdoors. It always strikes me when you interview and when we all go out there and we talk to these people who have gone through such an ordeal. Does she talk a lot about Lauren and just having had that loss?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hey there, 2020 listeners. It's Deborah Roberts here, and I want to welcome you to our very first 2020 After Show. There are so many things that happen behind the scenes when we're out reporting. Surprising twists, incredible moments that we, our producers, and our correspondents experience. So we decided to share the best stories with you.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And this is the small town where nobody thinks anything happens there, you know, just doesn't happen in our community. And of course, it did happen there. Well, we're going to take a break. But after the break, we're going to hear about the surprising place that the murder weapon turned up and something, John, you did out in the field. You shared with me a little bit later. OK, so stay tuned.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
This whole team and I are so excited to bring this show to you, pulling back the curtain, if you will, on the program that you all know and love. And so for our first episode, I have the pleasure of welcoming my friend and colleague, ABC News correspondent, John Kenyonis.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
OK, John, we're back now. And I want to talk about not only just this crime and how it happened, but, you know, one of the things that's always intriguing is how police crack these cases. That's why our viewers and our listeners actually find these cases so interesting, how they found it. Now, the murder weapon in this case, these women had been shot.
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They didn't find it right away, but they eventually you met the folks who found the murder weapon. And it was an intriguing way. Tell us a little bit about that in this cold part of the country.
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Did your producer, Joe Diaz, have to convince you to go out there?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Why would she think nothing of it to find a gun on the lake?
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
That's a classic John Quinones line. And that turned out to be the murder weapon.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
It's good to be with you. Good to have you. We call you Q around here, so I hope you don't mind, John.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
John, what about just going out there? Because I think what listeners might find interesting is, you know, many times we go out there on either the lake or, in my case, sometimes in wooded areas in some kind of a swamp or whatever with the police to find out. You had never been ice fishing before.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
You're out there with her, having her tell the story. Give us a little bit of a sense behind the scenes when you're doing that interview with her. Are you nervous about falling through while you're doing it, or were you perfectly comfortable, and did you just do the interview without thinking about it?
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But, you know, I'm always struck by the fact that people are willing to take us out into their lives and to do these kinds of things. And you specifically probably wanted to be out there on the ice with her because that's – That factored into the story.
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It's a delight. And to see you on the program regularly. Now, John, your show, You Left Me for Dead, I'm going to give a little recap here because it's really interesting and lots of little twists. And a warning to all of you, there may be spoilers if you haven't heard the show. And you can find the episode, of course, right next to this one in your feed.
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I am always struck by the police officers in these stories, and they are just the unsung heroes many times, particularly in small towns where maybe they don't necessarily always have the experience of investigating big murders. Maybe they don't happen there.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And so in this particular case, a big part of the story was that dogged detective work that was done by Jeremy Kopp of the Gallatin County Sheriff's Office, you mentioned, and Dustin Lensing of the Belgrade Police Department. What about the two of them in trying to put this together? And I'm guessing this is probably maybe the biggest case they had had to try to solve.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah. And they know to go to family right away to look at the family members. And certainly when they learn that somebody has been in the throes of a divorce, as Lauren had. So obviously they kind of knew where to swoop in. This case you talk about in the piece had a big impact on these two officers. And it happens all the time.
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I've noticed that, too, when I've been out interviewing small town cops. Here's an extended clip from the interview with Jeremy Kopp and Dustin Langsing that gets at that. Let's take a listen.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Yeah, something like this. You know, just hearing those guys, and I've heard it so often when I've interviewed officers, you know, we think that they just go out and they just do their job and we see them, these visions of them, you know, in our pieces. But these are real people, and particularly in communities like this, and they take this stuff to heart.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
You Left Me for Dead is a story of absolute horror and homicide in a small town near Bozeman, Montana. Two women are at home, and this is a nightmare for any of us thinking about being at home on a quiet night, when an intruder breaks in and shoots them. Lauren DeWise dies, and Ashley Van Hamer miraculously survives.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
And I've had officers tear up when talking about this, and you can hear the emotion in their voices. They did in this story, too.
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The After Show: You Left Me for Dead
Before we even get to that, because I want to... You've touched on so much. John, you're the classic reporter. You get it all in there. But I want to talk about Paul DeWise first, because... I mean, not only did he kill his wife and try to kill Ashley, he shot her, but he involved his teen children. It's unfathomable.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Well, this is what's so wonderful about doing this program because we all get to talk about the little nuances and the things that happen in the courtroom and what you found along the way that sometimes we don't always necessarily get those into our program. So this is what's great about today. So let's talk about the genesis of this story.
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Let's talk about your reaction, Pat, in the courtroom, because one of the things that just grabs me in a lot of our reporting is when these cases are revealed and there are kids involved. And so Monica's then 16-year-old daughter, Isabella, is the one who found her father brutally, brutally stabbed to death outside their house near the pool. And she testified in the trial.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
And talk to us about the family and watching that and seeing the daughter's testimony, and particularly for you as, you know, not just as a journalist, but as a person.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
You pitched it actually to us and you said that this was like one of the most fascinating, captivating, and I guess disturbing stories that you had covered. Tell me how so.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
And that had such an impact in the courtroom, too, when you think about that. But yet, Isabella still, you know, defends her mom. I mean, she wants to actually see her mom.
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And also for their future, too. I mean, going forward. I mean, how can you process all of that? But that's what really got me in this case, too, that they still they don't really believe that she could have as much as they probably know that their mom could be callous and all of that. They don't want to believe that she could do something that heinous. No.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Pat, you have, as we said earlier, you've covered so many of these cases. And oftentimes when I'm out there in the field and I'm reporting on these things and getting all the details, you do think that you just couldn't make this up. No, you can't. Yeah, this one I think you said it's up there for you in terms of what you found so fascinating about it, the human condition, very Shakespearean.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
You know, this is one you're not going to forget for a long time.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Right. We talk about the timeline and everything kind of falling into place for this murder, if Monica indeed did it. But do you think she wanted her daughter? She set it up for her daughter to find her father's body? Or do you think that was just collateral damage here?
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One of the things that was so incredible is that there are two murder suspects here, and one testified for the prosecution, one testifies for the defense. Talk about that accomplice to Robert Baker.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Yeah, and he got a lighter sentence, though. Pat, this has been so fascinating, and you and I could talk all day about this, but I can't thank you enough for bringing such intrigue and such understanding to these stories, at least to the extent that we can understand them. Always a pleasure to talk with you, Pat.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Pat LaLama is an ABC News consultant who covered the Cimentelli trial for us in Los Angeles. That does it for 2020, The After Show. And we hope you'll tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Chertavian and Sasha Aslanian, along with Joe Rhee, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
And we also had help this week from Amira Williams, Meg Vieira, and Larry DeCantt. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting and ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Wow. And it is also adjacent to fame, too, because he styled hair for some of the more famous people in Hollywood.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Well, let's let's go back to that security camera footage we talked about and how police zeroed in. There were two admitted killers in this case and testifying for both sides of the case. One prosecution, one defense.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. On Friday night's 2020, we told you about the dramatic case in Los Angeles where Monica Cimentelli has been on trial for the murder of her husband, Fabio Cimentelli. He was an internationally known hairstylist and hair care executive. He was found stabbed to death next to his pool eight years ago.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Wow. It's beyond interesting. And these are the kinds of things that we actually see play out all the time in these cases that we cover on 2020. Pat, hold that thought for a second. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what police caught on tape about Monica. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you? Well, these days, with all the spam text and robocalls from uncertain numbers, it feels like that era is long gone. That's how Get Contact comes in handy.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
It's a free mobile app that helps you identify unknown callers, block spam, and filter unwanted calls. So when you get a call, Get Contact's caller ID will instantly show you who's calling, even if they're not in your contacts. If the call's coming from a known robocaller, your phone will never even ring. Get Contact will filter it out and decline the call for you. It works for text, too.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
If you get a text from a number, Get Contact knows to be suspicious. It'll be sent right to spam instead of wasting your time with a notification. Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Get Contact is available now on the App Store and Google Play. You can download it today.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
This episode is sponsored by the podcast Death County PA from Wondery. When Lamont Jones learns that his young cousin died in custody just weeks after entering prison, his world shatters. The official report said natural causes, but how do bruises and missing teeth fit that explanation?
20/20
The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice, accept the story being told or risk everything to uncover the truth about what happened. From Wondery comes Death County, PA, a chilling true story of corruption, cover-ups, and one man's pursuit of justice. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many in Dauphin County Prison, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried.
20/20
The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. You can follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hi there, we're back.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
And interestingly, two men were caught on security cameras entering his property. And although his wife Monica has denied any involvement in the murder, prosecutors and investigators don't buy it. Their big question has always been, what role, if any, did his wife Monica play in her husband's death?
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Some of the most fascinating audio presented at this trial came from conversations that police recorded between Monica Cimentelli and her lover, Robert Baker. You brought us, Pat, one of those, and you can set up this clip for us because the fascinating thing is you've got two different people here, two different stories. Tell us what you brought to us.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Calling each other and the phone calls got a little steamy too, right?
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
And we recently received news that the jury has convicted Monica Cimentilli of the murder of her husband Fabio. On today's 2020 After Show, we're going to talk with ABC News consultant and fabulous crime journalist Pat LaLama, who sat in that courtroom every day of the trial and has been on this story since the murder took place in 2017 and has such great insight into it. Hi there, Pat.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
You know, they're talking about their love for each other and their lust for each other. And I'm sure viewers were probably struck by this, too, when this aired. But there's no sense of we're in trouble. What do we do? Oh, my gosh. How do we get here? None of that.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
Well, that's what I wanted to get at because you've been covering these cases for decades. You know, you have been at it a long time, as have I. And the technology has changed a lot over the years. And when you talk about sometimes things that are circumstantial, and that happens a lot with the cases we cover on 2020.
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
But that has changed a lot and made the police work a little bit more fruitful, hasn't it?
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The After Show: Sex, Knives and Videotape
That's what's so interesting, the timeline, you know, and they're able to do that with all of this technology. Yeah, kind of walk us through that a little bit.
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The Crime Scene: 20 Years in Captivity
It's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The Crime Scene: 20 Years in Captivity
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And you mentioned the Slayer lawsuit, and that is basically a Slayer petition means you can't profit from or you can't collect money after somebody has died.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I want to talk about that. But we're going to take a break first, though. And when we come back, we're going to unpack this tangled web of family, personal history and drama at the heart of the story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
We're back with the 2020 After Show, and Jonathan, the producer of the piece that we worked on together, is here. This story isn't just about a murder investigation. It's about a very, not just fractured, I guess, dysfunctional family. There are a lot of dynamics at work here. I thought that was so intriguing. You and I started off by looking at the family tree.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
John Chocolos, this patriarch, this wealthy patriarch of this family who had been murdered, had four daughters- One of them was Nathan's mom. That was just really interesting to find out how the money and how it affected the family and how there were fights within the family. And Nathan's mom, Linda, butted heads with her father a lot over life and the way she was raising her son.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah, a very tight-knit, we were told by them, a tight-knit Greek family too. One of the family members we actually got to meet was Charlene Gallagher, who was a younger sister to Linda. Let's hear an extended clip of that interview.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
You can hear the pain in her voice. We should say that Nathan was awaiting trial when he wound up taking his own life. The clip kind of really brings home, I think, how devastating these events were for this family. I mean, to have three family members.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And you certainly didn't want to presume to ask him to go to the cemetery.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Well, they never found her body, but he wanted at least a stone to represent her.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And that's what made the story so intriguing for us. My guest today is 2020 producer Jonathan Balthasar. Jonathan, I've been saying your name wrong.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Sometimes in these stories, we do find moments that we aren't expecting. And that's, I think, to me, on a human level, that's what makes the work that we do so interesting.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And so rewarding in some ways, even though it's a very sad story when we're talking about true crime, but rewarding to connect with a family member and to hopefully maybe bring a little bit of lightness to them just for that moment to be able to share their story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Well, you're always the one setting up these interviews, so it was such a pleasure to finally get a chance to talk with you about how we do all of this. Thanks for joining us. Jonathan is a producer for 2020. That is our show. Don't forget to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shurtavian and Sasha Ozlenian with Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Ryder. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Laura Mayer is the executive producer.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
JB, exactly. Well, it's great to have you here because you and I have worked on a lot of stories together. Our reporting has taken us to a lot of crazy places.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Canadian Far North, Attica Prison, which I forgot about that one.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
It actually the weather turned out to be pretty good for this one. So you and I have been out on a lot of different shoots. And I always ask you when these stories are brought to me, what was it about it that intrigued you?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
To say the least. Yes. He was very generous with his money, but he used the money. He kind of ruled a little bit with an iron fist. So he was a guy who was obviously beloved in his family. He had worked very hard, but he could also be very tough.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
amazing, harrowing story of survival. His mom, Linda, was nowhere to be found, lost at sea with his boat called the Chicken Pox, which sank during a deep sea fishing trip. That's what he told everyone. But what started as a story of survival soon turns into something much darker.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Hi there, everybody. It's Deborah Roberts. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. Today, we're going to talk about family lies, our most recent episode, one which I reported on, and one which has just captivated so many people. When Nathan Carman was discovered adrift on a life raft in the Atlantic in 2016, the world saw a young man who narrowly escaped death. It was a
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah, because you're not sure, is he just devoid of emotion or is that just part of his disability?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Yeah. And that's what made you such a great producer on the story, just because you had been on it from the beginning. Then, of course, fast forward three years later, and then he's out on this boat and this whole, you know, bizarre, you know, rescue at sea. The boat has supposedly sank and His mother is nowhere to be found.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
He doesn't know what happened, but thinks, assumes that maybe she fell overboard. So we decide, you know, of course, to pick up the story there because that's where so many people remember the story. And to tell it, you know, let's go out on a boat to talk about this.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Here it is. Like at the end of winter, you are trying to convince me to go out on a boat. First of all, out in the Atlantic.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I was. But of course, I needed to feel like it was safe. Tell us a little bit about how you go about doing something like that. Because one of the challenges was also this time of year, getting a boat, finding a boat that was similar to his to go out. Tell us about how you do that.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And we don't really, really know where it happened. That's part of the intrigue of the story.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
It was beautiful. And, of course, the crew knew so much about this story, just having been up there. This is an area that you know well, too, because you grew up or spent time up in that area?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
As investigators look a little deeper into the accident, they discover that Nathan was also the last person to see his grandfather alive. millionaire real estate developer John Chakalos. The 87-year-old had been shot execution style in his own bed just three years earlier. And soon, detectives began thinking that the boat sinking wasn't an accident.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
That's very cool. That doesn't happen very often. Well, more to talk about on this, but we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, more on this story and our trip out to sea with Jonathan.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Welcome back to the 2020 After Show. Jonathan is here with me. One of the particular challenges, of course, of this story is that it did happen out there in the ocean. And so we're on this boat and trying to figure out what happened at sea. You bring the maritime lawyer who was involved in this case out to sea to talk to us a little bit about it.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
And one of the things I found fascinating is hearing him talk about the very specific sort of the science of when they began to feel like Nathan's story sort of didn't add up about where he said the boat may have gone down, where he was rescued. I mean, that was pretty intriguing.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
How could you not be able to talk to her, you know, in a very panic kind of stricken sort of way?
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The After Show: Family Lies?
casting further suspicion on the surviving son who maintained his innocence in both cases. So the question becomes, could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance? Is he a victim of tragic circumstances or a cold-hearted killer? Here's a clip from our program.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Because I always thought maybe it would be something that was more complicated. And he's like, no, you just like press this one little button and that's it.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
I just did that bit on the boat in addition to interviewing folks. But you actually got in a life raft because he said he survived a little more than a week with supplies out on a life raft. You actually got in one.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
He didn't seem to be weak when he was trying to climb out of the boat.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Kind of nerve wracking too. I'm glad you didn't ask me to do that one. Another intriguing part of this story is that we got a chance to include some sort of first-time scene broadcast interviews with law enforcement, right? Nathan is recorded while he's talking to police.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
Tell folks how you managed to do that kind of thing, because that is what makes our stories, I think, interesting and special, to see something that you haven't seen before.
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The After Show: Family Lies?
But it's interesting that he even could know to do that and to actually- He was a very smart guy.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
I've covered stories like that where somebody shows up at the house with flowers and it's kind of a ruse. Well, we know that Hughes is in prison. What's happening with Mello? Update the listeners.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Wow. So we are going to have to stay tuned. We will be following. We know you'll be following along. There are probably more surprises to be revealed. Yeah, I'm very curious to hear what happens in John Mello's trial. It's so fascinating, Eva. Thank you so much for coming on and giving us a little bit more of the background. Thanks for having me.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
And as always, make sure to tune in on Friday nights for 2020 at 9 o'clock. The 2020 After Show is produced by Cameron Shurtavian, Amira Williams, and Sasha Aslanian, with Nora Hanna and Sean Dooley, Brian Mazursky, and Alex Berenfeld of 2020. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Yeah. You got a tip, though, kind of early on to watch out for this story, right?
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
And then also there's an Italy component to it, too, and it just was like this really bizarre story. Well, let's play a clip from the episode just to remind listeners of what unfolded.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Eva, this story, what do we know about Christina's life before her death? She was 41.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Hi there, everybody, and welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and today we're going to take you behind the scenes on a story that is so fascinating. It's a story we're calling the Rose Petal Murder. Christina Parcell was a young woman living in Greer, South Carolina, and then her fiance finds her stabbed to death in her home in what was a gruesome scene.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
And so remind viewers a little bit about Christina Parcell. And then, you know, we go to her sister, Tina Parcell.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Yeah. And so many of these stories, Eva, and you've covered so many of them and I have, too. When you go to these places, small towns, people are saying, you know, this is so unusual. This never would have happened here. Talk to me a little bit about the flavor of the community. You talked about the Bob Jones University. This is a religious place. This is kind of small town America, right?
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
So now we talk about in the story and viewers who saw it, of course, were mesmerized by it. Listeners now get a chance to get updated on it. So take me into the interview room with Mello.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Well, you ultimately spoke with John Mello. Here's an extended clip from your interview with him.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
So his tone is pretty strident there. What'd you make of his tone during the interview?
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
I mean, you know, obviously when we saw him and when you hear his voice, he sounds like a very self-possessed guy, very sharp. How did he appear when you first met him?
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
And then there's a bizarre twist. Rose petals scattered all around her. Well, police zero in on a suspect, Juilliard-trained pianist Zach Hughes, who's a friend of Christina's ex-boyfriend, John Mello. And when Hughes goes to trial, there is a shocking development. He confesses on the stand to killing Christina.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
In the court of public opinion. Right. We're going to take a quick break. And after that, we're going to dive into the strange story of the convicted killer, Zach Hughes. So stay with us. This episode is sponsored by Get Contact. Do you remember back in the days of cell phones when the only people who had your number were friends and loved ones who were actually trying to get in touch with you?
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Get Contact is available now on the App Store and Google Play. You can download it today.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
All right, we're back with the 2020 After Show, and Eva Pilgrim is here with me with this unusual story for 2020, particularly because Zach Hughes, this enigmatic figure in this case, there was a major twist, I mean, in the courtroom with him.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
and then accuses her ex-boyfriend of offering him money to do it, something Mello denies. Well, Hughes says he did it to protect Christina's daughter, whom he alleges was being abused. This is truly an unbelievable story of twists and turns. And joining me today to share some of the details about this strange case is my friend and colleague and ABC senior national correspondent, Eva Pilgrim.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
So Zach was this unusual fellow. I mean, this is a classically trained musician. His dad bought him a piano when he was younger from a yard sale. He had this love of music. Talk about him a little bit and what you learned about him.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Well, you talked earlier about the courtroom twist, and we have that twist here where Zach implicates John Mello in his testimony on the stand. We're going to play a clip from Zach in court. He's just alleged that Mello offered him $5,000. to kill Christina.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Hey, Eva. Hey, Debra. This is good. We always run into each other in the hallway and just chit chat about stuff, but rarely do we get a chance to sit down like this. And actually chat. And actually really chat. Well, this story, I mean, what was it that just grabbed you right away about the story? Because you were involved in the beginning.
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The After Show: The Rose Petal Murder
Because nobody saw this part coming. Nobody saw, I mean, nobody saw any of these parts coming. Well, I'm just struck by Zach Hughes, your story about his backstory, you know, this guy who was just obsessed with music. I mean, how would he even get implicated in something like this? It's one thing when it's a crime of passion, but he didn't even really know Christina.
20/20
The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
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The Crime Scene: New Details in Idaho Murders Case
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Diddy on Trial
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Diddy on Trial
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
We have a little girl here for adoption. She has dwarfism.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Tupac Murder Suspect Speaks Out
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Wife of Green Beret Charged with His Murder
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Wife of Green Beret Charged with His Murder
We have a little girl here for adoption. She has dwarfism.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Wife of Green Beret Charged with His Murder
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
20/20
The Crime Scene: Karen Read Murder Retrial Begins
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
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The Crime Scene: Karen Read Murder Retrial Begins
The Stolen Girl series premiere April 16th on Freeform and stream on Hulu.
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The Crime Scene: Karen Read Murder Retrial Begins
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
20/20
The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
This is Deborah Roberts. We've got a new show for you that I think you're really going to want to check out. It's called The Crime Scene Weekly from ABC News. Each week, host Brad Milkey, who you know from Start Here, sits down with the journalists covering the latest true crime stories.
20/20
The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
Where is June Osborn? Rise up and fight for your freedom.
20/20
The Crime Scene: The Menendez Brothers' Fight For Freedom
From the discovery of grisly new crimes to breakthroughs in cases that are far from closed, you can stay up to speed on the latest true crime headlines. It's true crime in real time. And for the next few weeks, we're going to bring the Crime Scene Weekly to you here in the 2020 feed. If you like it, make sure to follow the show and keep listening. Again, it's the Crime Scene Weekly.
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The Crime Scene: 'Doomsday Mom' Found Guilty, Again
Put some good in your morning and start your day with GMA. Good morning, America. Put the good in your morning. GMA 7A on ABC.
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The Crime Scene: 'Doomsday Mom' Found Guilty, Again
Hello, it's Robin Roberts here. Hey guys, it's George Stephanopoulos here. Hey everybody, it's Michael Strahan here. Wake up with Good Morning America.