Dave Davies

that their actions in government should be to serve the public and not politicians, and they are protected in that way. President Trump had this idea of changing that with something called Schedule F in the first Trump term, which I gather he did issue an executive order about, but it wasn't really effective. Do you want to explain what that was supposed to do and why it didn't work?

that their actions in government should be to serve the public and not politicians, and they are protected in that way. President Trump had this idea of changing that with something called Schedule F in the first Trump term, which I gather he did issue an executive order about, but it wasn't really effective. Do you want to explain what that was supposed to do and why it didn't work?

that their actions in government should be to serve the public and not politicians, and they are protected in that way. President Trump had this idea of changing that with something called Schedule F in the first Trump term, which I gather he did issue an executive order about, but it wasn't really effective. Do you want to explain what that was supposed to do and why it didn't work?

Right. And it's a little strange because civil service is not just a notion, right? It's a policy established by acts of Congress. What made those in Project 2025 think the president has the authority to sweep away this protection from thousands of employees just with an executive order?

Right. And it's a little strange because civil service is not just a notion, right? It's a policy established by acts of Congress. What made those in Project 2025 think the president has the authority to sweep away this protection from thousands of employees just with an executive order?

Right. And it's a little strange because civil service is not just a notion, right? It's a policy established by acts of Congress. What made those in Project 2025 think the president has the authority to sweep away this protection from thousands of employees just with an executive order?

Right. Now we should note that there were thousands of employees in the government that are not in civil service jobs, that serve at the will of the president and his appointees. So there is an idea here that policymakers should have some flexibility to change things if they want. And so a lot of jobs at the top aren't civil service.

Right. Now we should note that there were thousands of employees in the government that are not in civil service jobs, that serve at the will of the president and his appointees. So there is an idea here that policymakers should have some flexibility to change things if they want. And so a lot of jobs at the top aren't civil service.

Right. Now we should note that there were thousands of employees in the government that are not in civil service jobs, that serve at the will of the president and his appointees. So there is an idea here that policymakers should have some flexibility to change things if they want. And so a lot of jobs at the top aren't civil service.

I gather one of the things in the first Trump administration was that some of those went vacant either because they weren't kind of – didn't have it together to appoint them all or wanted to save money.

I gather one of the things in the first Trump administration was that some of those went vacant either because they weren't kind of – didn't have it together to appoint them all or wanted to save money.

I gather one of the things in the first Trump administration was that some of those went vacant either because they weren't kind of – didn't have it together to appoint them all or wanted to save money.

So do we have any idea how many of these 10,000 people in the Project 2025 database actually got jobs in the Trump administration?

So do we have any idea how many of these 10,000 people in the Project 2025 database actually got jobs in the Trump administration?

So do we have any idea how many of these 10,000 people in the Project 2025 database actually got jobs in the Trump administration?

Does it seem that this Trump administration has been more effective in filling those jobs, those non-civil service jobs with Trump supporters?

Does it seem that this Trump administration has been more effective in filling those jobs, those non-civil service jobs with Trump supporters?

Does it seem that this Trump administration has been more effective in filling those jobs, those non-civil service jobs with Trump supporters?

All right, let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. We are speaking with David Graham. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new book is The Project, How Project 2025 is Reshaping America. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air. On NPR's through line.

All right, let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. We are speaking with David Graham. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new book is The Project, How Project 2025 is Reshaping America. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air. On NPR's through line.