Cynthia Erivo

Yeah. There's no one like her. Where did you meet? East London. I want to say we met at one of the theaters or something.

Are you comparable ages? I think she's maybe a year or so younger than me. Younger? Yeah. What a bitch. Yeah. But I love her. She'd written some songs or poems with songs and asked me to sing. I think it was when I was dancing. She asked me to dance to one of her songs that she was performing at a church or something random. And we just stayed in contact. And we've been friends since then.

Yes. So I was born in Southwest London, a place called Stockwell. I went to school in South London, Clapham South. But I moved to East London when I was about 14, about Upton Park, East Ham, that kind of area, but properly East London. Okay.

We all moved to East London.

Yes. My mom bought a house in East London and that's when we moved. That was a really big moment for us because it was like, oh, we have our own house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I thought that South London was pretty chill. I really enjoyed it. I remember there's open spaces, those are like cool little parks that you can go to. It's very walkable. You can walk all around South London and mostly downhill.

The bus is your best friend at that point. I mean, it's lovely going. Coming back is a damn nightmare. Or you take a tube. There's loads of cool outdoors activities where I lived. You could go go-karting, stuff like that. Go-karting. And East London is really vibrant. It's busy and alive. Loads of different cultures. Is it like the East Village in New York? No.

I don't know if there's anywhere like it. You have the African community and different African communities. You've got Ghanians, the Nigerians. You have the Pakistanis. You have Bangladesh. You have the Jamaicans there as well. There's like a smorgasbord of different types of people, which means that there's different types of food everywhere. everywhere. And like, it's super vibey.

I can go to the corner of East Ham right after the tube station. I know that I'm going to walk into the store that has all of the saris and all of the 24 karat goals. But then if I cross the road, there's the shop that has Jamaican patties. And if I walk far enough, there's the auntie that does the Nigerian materials. It's like that. And then there's the market, which has everything.

I love it in East Ham because of how easy it is to just get everything. But then next door, Larry, who's like the plumber who fixes your roof and your backyard if he needs it, who's very, very Essex, who sounds like this and wants to talk to you about what the weather's been like, is also there. So you have all of these people who sort of exist in the same way.

And then West Ham Stadium's over there. For what you call soccer, we call football.

It goes off. Yeah.

Early 90s when I was still very, very young. I think it was Arsenal. That terrible, awful thing that happened at the games where people were like, there was a stampede. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, something happened. Because Burberry was not that. Then it became part of that culture. I think it's been, in a way, reclaimed and changed again.

Beckham saved it, yeah. Yeah, what a style icon. We're going to give him props for that.

Yeah, it's changed hands enough that the style has changed enough for it to become, for the aperture in it to become wider.

Yes, I believe so. Yeah, from war. And then my mom moved to London when she was 24.

She did all of that when she got here.

Herself and her younger sister.

I don't know if she had a game plan. She was just like, arrive, what do I do? And then she was told that she was to do catering, to which she said yes for a second and then was like, I don't know if catering's for me. And then studied nursing at King's College, became a nurse.

then expanded and kept expanding and then got better and better and then started doing her papers for what we call health visiting. There's a position in the UK, I always explain it because I think it's a really beautiful position that everyone should have, called a health visitor.

And it is a nurse or a nurse who's at the level of what you call a sister at this point, who can make visits to people's homes who have just had children. She will take care of mother and child, make sure the vitals are good. Her particular area of expertise was cognitive health. So it's, are your children developing in the right way? Are they able to pick things up?

Can they spot color from birth to the age of three before they go to kindergarten?

Very much so.

No, but it's weird because I think those are part of her duties to take care of mother right after birth. When mother comes home with a baby, when parents come home with a baby, that first couple of weeks, months, my mom is the person that you see first.

Right. Weighs the baby the whole lot.

Breastfeeding the whole lot.

That's when my mom steps in. Yeah. So she will tell you what's next.

I don't know why you don't have this position here because it's so helpful. Because that bit between birth and kindergarten, it seems like there's nothing in between. Yeah. Which is so odd to me because my mum is the person in between.

That means that a parent who has postpartum depression, someone who might have been already depressed, someone who is finding it hard to latch, all of that, that's my mum.

That would be her. And she's very good at it. She's like the child whisperer. It's very strange.

Every day.

I think so. She loves children and children love her. It's really magical to watch. They all just sort of go to her.

She might be. And I don't know if she knows yet. I think I have to break it to her. But the thing is, I want to satisfy that need in a very different way because I do want to be the person that's able to put people through school, take care of young people who need care. I do think that's a gift that's come from her because I do think I am actually very good with kids and good with young people.

I want to still be nurturing without necessarily being the biological parent.

Correct.

Do you know what I love? I love what Oprah has been able to do where she essentially has been taking care of these young women, building them up enough for them to move into whatever careers they want to move into. And they're all excellent women. I think I aspire to be able to do that.

I start singing at the age of five without realizing that that's actually what I'm doing. I know I'm making sound. I feel very good about the sound I'm making. Good. I like the reaction that people are having because of it.

Yes. So I know that something is good. I don't necessarily know that it's the most tuneful sound. I just know that I'm having a great time doing it. And I'm seeing people's faces, smiles, applause is happening. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Approval.

It's very good. I think for a little bit, I was just chasing that because it was nice.

Nothing for anyone then.

Yeah. You're many people's favorite. Oh, thank you.

But the thing is, I don't think I've ever thought of it as control necessarily. I think I've always thought of it as a way to encourage and connect people with emotion.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe I am. And by the way, it can be all things. Yeah.

I think I love the conversation of singing. I always think there's a real big conversation going on, especially when I'm singing live. It's a big old conversation. I can see it because I'm looking at people's eyes. I am urging them to connect with me. I'm trying to tell you this story. I can scream. I can yell. I can whisper. I can caress with my voice. I can do all of those things.

But I want the energy exchange. And I guess selfishly, that energy exchange is like a high for me. It's a rush. And when I can see that it's happening, there's nothing better than that. It is a really vulnerable place to stand and be like, I'm going to open up myself and I'm going to tell you my stories with my voice. It's just me. And that's always a really vulnerable place to be.

People don't realize that when you have to sing in front of an orchestra, they either love you or hate you. The orchestra. The orchestra. Why would they hate you? Because some singers will come in and there's an entitled thing that people come to an orchestra with where it's like, I'm the singer. You play behind me. You're serving me. You're supporting me. Exactly.

When actually it's the complete opposite. It's not that at all. You're all in it together. The music doesn't make sense without them and they don't make sense without you. They can play the song, but the lyrics communicate as well. But they help with the emotion. If you don't do it together, it will feel disjointed.

I always get really nervous before I have the conversation, but I always urge myself to do it. Before we even start rehearsal, the first thing I ask the orchestra to do is to let me come with you and let's do this together because I'm not going to do this alone. And if you're sat there not enjoying this, everyone's going to feel it. Right. Because there's 20 of them and only one of me.

And if 20 of them aren't enjoying it and if they can't go with it, their audience will feel that immediately. And we're off in the wrong direction.

Thank you for doing that.

Yes. And I think the actual fear is that the singer who comes in, who does have the latitude, isn't respectful of the fact that they have maths to do as well. They have a box to stay in. You can have your latitude. But if you're aware of I need to make sure I make it back to here.

Things get so out of control. Yes, they do.

And if you don't.

Exactly.

If you don't and you're just all over the place and you're not paying attention, you're not looking at the conductor, you're not listening.

Exactly. Now we're not doing this together. Now you're just doing whatever the hell you want to do. And I'm over here playing these notes.

Why are we even here? You're doing this on your own. You don't need us.

I think very few. A lot of singers just get excited that they get to sing in front of an orchestra.

And they're nervous. They haven't really done it before. Sometimes an orchestra is a novelty to a lot of singers.

Yes, but the weight becomes a hell of a lot lighter when you know it's not just you.

I wasn't shy. I was very bossy.

People are seeking out the worst of things. It's very strange.

Yeah. So is Monica. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was very bossy. I knew exactly what I needed to do and what I wanted. And if I didn't like something, I was the worst version of a Capricorn that could exist.

Yeah.

Probably. I would just say what I thought. And sometimes that would not be nice. I wasn't a mean kid. I just was really honest all the time.

I think it comes from my own past and my history with my dad and all of those things. Maybe feeling a little lied to in that expectation of a parent and not getting it.

I know what's going on. I was a clever kid, so I didn't necessarily need much babying. So when a person did baby me, it still pisses me off.

I can't stand it. Yeah.

Please don't call me cute. I haven't been cute in a long time.

A small squirrel. Cute. My dogs, who are five pounds and eight pounds. Cute. Vulnerable, too. Vulnerable. You know, some babies. Cute. Do you think that's a small person complex thing? I think it's a small person complex thing to other people. I know I'm short. I'm very aware of being a small five foot one person. But it's when people think because you're small, you're also very young and dumb.

The two things don't go together just because I'm small. You know what I mean? I'm good.

It's like where the boundary is.

I try not to swing. When someone's like, you look so much bigger on stage, I understand what that means. Okay. I think if you'd told me that 10 years ago, I would have been like, what do you mean? But now I understand what you mean by someone's presence when they're in performance mode, as opposed to when you meet them. They're two different things.

Where you get to be a part of my life and then when I get to have my life for myself.

So the look of someone changes when they're in their sort of element. Yes. They do seem bigger. You can't help it. And that's what happens. So I totally understand what that means.

What's happening? It's hard to know. The thing is, it's very hard to know. And at any point, it could be either one of those things. Yes. Or all of it. Yeah. Because sometimes it is, you're so sweet. Oh, my goodness. I didn't expect you to be.

It's like reminding people that humanity exists.

I mean, these are very dog whistly. You're so well spoken. Oh, my God. I love the way you speak. How else am I supposed to speak?

What were you expecting?

I like to think I'm somewhat discerning. And you can tell by the way someone says something and the intention behind it. I think you can always sense... It's through the way a person approaches you and what they're trying to say and the context through which they say it. I also just try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I was to run around going, what are you trying to say?

You can be a human being.

The whole time, I would be exhausted. And some of this is exhausting as it is.

This is not the fight I want to even get into. And sometimes it's just a, yeah, thank you so much. Right.

What they actually want to say is, I think you're great. And I watch your shows. And I know what about you. And I know what about you. And they want to have a whole conversation and nothing comes out. Yes. But I love your wife. Yeah, exactly.

I'm telling you, this is Capricorn shit. It is, right? I swear to God it's Capricorn shit. I just won't stand for it. It really is. But you suffer from it.

No. They go home afterwards. They're like, okay, that was good.

It's a complete collapse of reality for them. Yeah.

I wonder if there's a world in which you just like ask the question.

Yeah. Are you being condescending or are you... Watch them short circuit.

You'd think he would move. But there is something in the asking that made him have to think about it. Yeah. What he said was rude. Yes.

Yes.

I will say that that is a really simple question to ask. And it's actually the simple answer, yes or no. It's a yes or no answer. And I don't think he knew the answer.

I think he said a joke that he realized could be an insult as well, but thought it was like okay to say because he felt familiar.

I understand that there are people who short circuit and they just don't know what to say. And sometimes some of the sweetest interactions come out of that. My favorite types of those interactions are those where they just say, I don't know what to say. And I have no words, but you're amazing. Yeah. Because I get it.

Exactly. I'm really overwhelmed. I don't really know what to say because it's so honest. It's so endearing and it's so real. There are times when you're like, I don't know what to say here, but I know that this is a really cool moment and I'm glad you're here. And I'm scared right now. And I'm scared because I don't want to say the wrong thing. It's an honest, emotional reaction.

The flip side of that is someone saying something and they say it in the wrong way. And if you look closely enough, you'll see it in their faces that, oh my God. What did I just say? Immediately you'll see it. But if that doesn't show up at all, then it's, oh, I said the best thing in the world. And then it's like, did you mean to hurt my feelings?

There's one answer. You know, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or I just wanted to connect. I'm so sorry. That came out wrong.

Yeah, I think for me, that particular kind of connection has been happening since The Color Purple, really and truly. So that kind of cathartic release and people's stories and people coming together, breakups, the stories of abuse, those things have come up and people have been really open with me about that.

The things they've been going through because of these women that I've been able to play and the stories that we get to tell. And during my concerts as well, people come together. There's something that happens in these spaces. I'm really grateful that that is what people experience with me. But I do have to be like... Protective. Yeah, because otherwise I'll just arms open wide all day.

Yeah. And it's very hard not to because I actually care every time someone takes the time to tell me a story. I'm listening. I feel their feelings because there's nothing worse than trying to tell someone a story and them not even bothering to like look you in the face.

And I never want anyone to feel like that with me. So I take a lot of time to speak with people and be with people after shows. And I can be there for like an hour and just be there with people.

It's not healthy. So after those shows, after those performances, whenever I've had all of that outside of it, I have to find spaces for me to just be like me, find places where I could be meditative. And for me, running or walking gives me space to just like, I'm just going to think I'm going to reconfigure my brain.

I'm going to free up some space for myself because it's really the only way I can do it.

It's so great. It has really helped me. I went to Greece and I filmed a little film called Drift. And that was really terrifying and hard and heartbreaking, the whole lot. And what I would do every day before we would start filming is either run or walk miles. And it would just sort of reset everything. The practice has just never changed. That's great.

If we think about it, even Wicked isn't really a silly project.

Yeah, I'm pulling out everything from the depth of me. I think on the outside, people go, oh, it's fun. And then they get in there like, what?

I really appreciate people who have not seen it at all and are coming to the movie fresh.

You're so good in it. Thank you. But I do have to do something silly at some point. I don't know what the silly thing is. I just did a really cool. I mean, there is silliness in it and I had a great time doing it. We did an episode of Poker Face with Natasha Lyonne and Brian Johnson and I had the best time doing it. And there is a lot of silliness. I got to use my funny bone there.

But I think drama is always going to follow me. I think the dramatic bone is always going to be there. There's always going to be heart in something.

Of course.

There is a part of me that is like, yes, sometimes I want to just do some great stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the politics of me being a black queer woman. Fashionista. I try. But I don't know if I have that choice. And so I kind of just accept it and try my very, very best to pick the things that have the widest view of what humanness looks like.

I want to dance in the gray area always. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are only liked. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are just heroes. I want the complicated, icky space. The Gary Oldman career. I want that. I want to be able to do all of those things and I want it to be okay. I have less worry about it than often sometimes studios and streamers do.

They're like, oh, but what makes her redeemable? Do we like her? And I'm always like, I don't know if the character cares if you like her or not.

Yeah.

Nobody asked if Tony Soprano is likable. We just watch it. Nobody asked if American Psycho was going to be liked. I think it's okay if we can get those kinds of characters where the face is mine. We'll all be okay if we start really diving into those spaces and not being like, it's because she's black. It's just because she's human and she has darkness and light in her.

Yeah, it's all the difference that a person can be. I loved the idea of being able to play her because... There is no requirement for me to play her as just good or perfect the entire time. She makes mistakes. She fucks up. She gets it wrong.

And that's the thing. They're both fallible beings. They're both fallible humans. They rub up against each other. They're not great with each other either. It's not like Glinda's horrible and Elphaba's doesn't give it back. They give it to each other. They're mean to each other for a long time. They say horrible things.

Things to each other until they realize, oh, we feel just as outcast as each other in spaces. Yours is more obvious. Mine is not. I'm trying to live up to something that is beyond me. And I can't get to a place that you are in. And I'm in the difference my entire life. So the experience of the world is very, very different.

Because neither one of them at the beginning actually take on who they're meant to be. It takes them having to be like, this could be to my complete destruction, but I have got to be myself because it's the only way that I can actually fully exist. And that's when shit really takes off.

Truly is one of the most incredible people on the planet. Just a good human being. Watching him work is really fun. He's so excited by it. And he's like finding things at the same time we're finding things. And then the ideas keep going back and forth. Should we try this? Do you want to try it one more time? And it's just so thrilling the entire time.

And this is what it's like for months and months on end. And the thing is, he won't say he's tired. I'll be like, John, you're tired. I need you to sit down. You need to take a break. Have you had something to eat? What are you eating? This is trash. I'm going to get you some vegetables and some like nuts.

Let's get you some sugar free sweets instead of having like all that sugar because it's not going to help. He's the kind of person that you want to be well because he wants you to be well. He's creating this atmosphere that is so infectious and it sounds really cliche and very facetious, but it's not. That's how we did this. And that's not to say that it was easy.

It's just to say that because the atmosphere was set up in the right way, the things that were difficult were pleasurable at the same time. You could actually enjoy doing the hard work.

And really caring because he asked me at the very beginning whether I wanted to do the makeup or whether I wanted to do CGI. There was a question. It was like, so here's the deal, Sin. If you do this makeup, it's going to add three hours to your call time every day. And it's going to be hard to do that because these are long days and you're going to add to it. I'm more worried about taking it off.

The taking it off took an extra hour, hour and a half.

You know what? My skin was in the best. So you said yes. I said yeah.

I didn't want to leave my trailer and have like dots on my face.

No, my nails were done. Nothing was happening with your hands. Nothing was happening with my hands. I have very long fingers. Yeah. Very long fingers. My nails are very long right now.

Everyone's afraid to ask it. No, no one's afraid to ask it. Oh, is everyone asking that? Everybody asks that question. All girls, though? No, everybody asks that question. Okay, yeah.

And my answer is nobody uses just their fingers to wipe their backside. You use tissue.

Correct. And you wipe.

Yeah, no, Anne's phenomenal. Well, now's your chance. Go.

No, because the tissue's there. You don't feel none of that.

You're annoyed by it. I'm annoyed by it. I'm like, come on, guys. But I get it. But it's also like I'm a functioning adult and I've never walked around smelling like, you know.

Go. Sing off.

That's a problem with them. And here's the thing. There are people who do not have nails who need to check how they're wiping. I agree. You know what I'm saying?

Everyone's asking that question.

No, no. People are bold.

People are always like, how do you get anything done with those nails? And I'm like, I mean, I'm here. Yeah, I got here somehow. I'm dressed.

Thank you so much. But yeah, because the nails would change with the scene. Sometimes you would shoot two different things in one day. So the nails will change in the middle of the day.

It is the study of the way in which music affects the psychological state of a person based on where they live, their social standing. What's the word I'm looking for? based on like elitism, socioeconomic standing, status. And then when you get down to the fine points of it, what is within music itself.

So the way in which the note structures can affect the way a person hears the music and what it does to a person's mood and a person's psyche. So this is sort of layman's terms. If you hear a song in a minor key and the lyrics happen to be sad or without lyrics, it tends to evoke a sad emotion. Or if you hear music with a major key, even if the lyrics are sad, you will evoke a happy mood.

There's a song, and I hate to pick this, but I pick it because it's the one thing on my mind and she's with me all the time. It's a song called One Last Time that Ariana Grande has.

But her version, which is the seminal version, is in a major key and it's up-tempo. When you hear it, you don't realize that it's actually a heartbreak song. People dance.

Then there is a band called Third Story who changed the key and took the tempo right down. Ah. And now it becomes a heartbreak song. And now people are crying. And now you make people cry. Whoa.

Yes, yes, yes.

Right, right, right, right, right.

I'm the camp that sits right in between. Because I think both of those things have inherent value. Let's take Mozart's Lacrimosa. Nobody knows what those lyrics are. Lacrimosa means to cry. But you wouldn't know that unless you go and look up the lyrics and you know Latin. But you know that the music itself is deeply sad.

That's what it sounds like. So it's sad.

But the lyrics, though they mean to cry, it is actually about forgiveness in a way. So it's actually not a sad song necessarily.

Which is why I'm in both camps. Because even the happiest song can actually mean something very, very different. We can dance when we're happy. We can dance when we're sad. Both have value. Like I'll listen to the lyrics all day long. But sometimes I just want to hear the music. Sometimes it's the music that moves me.

I think it's what's really interesting about what's happening with, there's a music called Afrobeats, which is happening right now, and it seems to be growing tentacles and spreading out everywhere. Whereas before, I grew up with it. And it's developed and it evolves and it changes ever so much. So it's become a little bit popularized.

But if you go back 50 years, the rhythms are still very similar. The tonal qualities are still very similar. So you still hear the same types of notation, but lyrically it becomes different. And the way we've put it together has become different. And young people have started to listen to it. That was why I was interested in this particular subject. But I think I was too early for it.

I needed to go and do the thing I'm meant to do, which is this. Because you bailed, right? I didn't even go to RADA straight away. I went to like a young actors company program at a local theater. Because I was like, I'm not doing this. I don't think this is right for me. So I left and I went to this young actors company. And at the young actors company...

I was I mean, I use the word forced fondly to go and study at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. And I say it because this wonderful mentor of mine would not allow me to do this particular program unless I signed up for an audition.

She blackmailed you. Yeah. She was like, you sign up for an audition. You come to this. You don't. You can't. And I was like, OK.

But grudgingly signed in to do an audition thinking this will be short lived. It's not going to happen. I'm not going to get in. We're cool.

There was no point because I was not going to get in.

I was not going to get in. I'm just asking to get rejected. You mean me, a girl from Southwest London who moved to East London is now going to go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts? In what world? That's a nonsense idea. No one's ever flagged it for me before. So why on earth? It's not going to happen. And then I got in. Wow.

It's so, I swear to you, it's the most ridiculous thing in the world. Because here's the thing. My time at RADA was not easy. I was the oddball. I was a true East London girl who just was myself. And I was like the one girl who really loved music. And like I left RADA. I was going to do a backing vocal gig before I came to the school that was going to pay for the school.

I'm offended for you.

And they said, no, I was doing gigs at night. And I was the only person that was doing that kind of thing in this school. So I really had figured out my jobs.

Yeah, they might have some sort of connection. I think they have a little connection. If not, I'm trying to make it happen. Well, that should be one of your tasks as vice president. I've given it to myself. I think that might be a really good idea. Like exchange studenting, maybe. Some professor swaps? Maybe. Everyone wants six months in London. Here's the thing.

I would go to Juilliard and sit and chat with the students because I do actually teach at RADA. You do?

I currently teach.

I try not to, but I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen this year.

I do. I think it's going to happen because there's just like a lot going on. And I'm actively trying to work at RADA and do the things I need to do because I don't believe in taking on a title if you're actually not going to do the work. I vehemently detest that. I don't want to be the vice president just because... Ceremonial.

It's like you aged backwards. It's very strange. It's a good joke because it's absolutely the most untrue thing in the world. I think you could still play Anne. I couldn't pull off Anne at all. Petra was perfect.

And I know that there's stuff to be done. And I also love working with the students at RADA. And I try and get there every year for at least a week intensive workshop with the third year students. What I want to do is meet them in the first year, have a little time with them in the second, and then have the intensive in the third. So there is something that they work with throughout.

They're not just meeting me the first time in the third year. But now they'll see me more often because, well, I'm there.

In love as in in love? Crushes? I was in love with one of mine.

I'm going to ignore any of this. I'm going to be like, don't know. Don't want to know.

I'm also aware of what I'm walking into the school with.

Yeah, no, you are. Yeah, I think I would. For sure. Yeah. But I don't know that people would fall in love with me as a me. I think they're falling in love with the idea.

We fight about this all the time. I think so. I think people fall in love with the idea of a person until they allow themselves to fall in love with the actual person.

The Miller's son.

But when it comes to the school of it all, I'm here to teach you and take you through and help you.

Oh, yeah.

I would never. I'm also aware of what I walk in the room with. I know that there's a lot and I think I'm getting used to what that even is.

And the thing is, I would say to that person, you do not want to be me. You want to be the best version of yourself. You don't know if you want to do all the things or go through all the things I've already been through. My shit's made for me. But when you're that age, you really... You can't tell. Yeah, it's hard. I'm looking at Nicolas Cage and I'm like... And I want to be that.

I did it at Lincoln Center.

I think for me, in a perfect world, I think I would be like the love child of Cicely Tyson and Barbra Streisand.

It was a one-off. Well, four nights.

Are you Cicely Tyson? I'm so sorry.

Okay.

Okay.

I was going to leave you out. You've got to look her up. She passed away a few years ago at like the age of 94, I think it was.

She made it to 96.

We really wanted her to get to 100. And she was strong. She was one of the most incredible actresses ever. British? American. Oh. And she shaved her head just like me.

I read her autobiography. It's the most fascinating thing. She had a torrid relationship with Miles Davis.

She tells you all about that. She was in Sounder. She was in Roots. Most people probably know her best for How to Get Away with Murder. She was Annalise Keating's mother. Oh. Okay. But she's just brilliant. The way she used her hair as a statement constantly throughout her life was just really inspiring.

I was happy it was only four nights because it was manic. I was doing 59 other things at the same time. On one day, I opened something in the morning, did something in the afternoon, which was like a full 20-minute set show for Pride Weekend and ran from the Pride Weekend show to the Lincoln Center. That was the Stonewall. That's right. To do night music.

So whether it was doing bantu knots or getting it cornrolled or shaving it off or leaving it as an afro, there's a really beautiful image of her when she is nominated, I think, for Sounder for the Oscar, where she goes with like flowers in her hair. She's special, special, special. So that combination of her and Barbra Streisand, and Barbra Streisand I picked because of

the Renaissance woman effect that she has over her own life and the way in which she was able to translate music and song and acting and do all of this vast arena of things.

I want to kid myself and be like, I'm really ready for it. I think in a way I am. But there's always the aspect that you have no idea what's coming. You can't know the future. I have no idea what this will be full stop. But I think I'm open. That's as far as I can take myself. I'm open to the possibilities of what this might be.

I'm very, very, very grateful for the chance to do something of this magnitude because it doesn't come along often.

Yeah.

Can you imagine? Insane.

Mom and dad didn't get divorced.

But I was 16 when my dad decided not to be a part of my life.

Maybe two or three times a week. His choice. My mom was really, I think, kind.

Ever.

I honestly can't believe it. And gave him the space to come and visit if he wanted to. We would go over to his from time to time as well. She like really made the space for us if he wanted to build a relationship to build a relationship. And he just didn't.

No, I think he just was not set up to be a dad. I don't think it was his bag.

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's book and there is a section in the book where she talks about her father. And it really clicked for me when I read this part. She said that there are some parents who are meant to be parents. They're meant to shepherd their children into the world, make sure that they are taken care of and they are good with them.

And there are other parents who are meant to literally get them healed. And that is it. And we can't forget that each parent is still a human being. They are a human being before they're a parent. And I'm okay. That made everything really clear for me. That doesn't remove hurts and pain that I had been through and have worked to work through.

There was actually a night where I had to stop because it's also dangerous if you're not moving at the right speed. If it slows down too much, your brain switches on. It's one of those songs that you need your brain to be on autopilot so you can actually just reel the words off.

I think it did.

But yeah. Thank goodness for good therapists. Because that shit really helped.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You know that they're predisposed to like actually go away at some point.

That's correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's ridiculous. Until you get your head around it and you get some control on what it is that you're actually looking for, what you're trying to fix in that, it just will keep going.

Yeah. I had to be alone for a second. I have to figure out what the heck this is. What am I running away from? What do I want for myself? And also, I think I was using for a small amount of time my career as a conduit to like find a way to get him back.

Look what you missed.

Look what you gave up. You're going to regret leaving this.

It's fantastic until it doesn't work anymore.

Until it leaves you empty and you're like, what am I actually doing this one? I've not done this for myself. And now I have to figure out how to do this for myself.

Yeah. We got to try something else now.

Let's change direction. Pivot. Let's go somewhere else now. I got here.

I did. So my music teacher there, Miss Rycroft, who is so awesome. No one really understood her, but I really got her.

she would pretend to be like this curmudgeonly teacher who just didn't like people but actually she was the funniest most brilliant most kind teacher to me ever she was like oh I have your number right I know what you are you are a musician and I'm gonna make sure that you're always a musician I see you I was like quickly accosted and I learned to play the clarinet.

And if it slows down and it felt like it was slowing to a grinding halt, it's like that weird sort of, oh my God, I'm in the room. What are the words again? Is that the word I'm saying? And I just was like, okay, we have to stop. I am a big, big advocate for if it's going wrong, stop.

So I learned to read music that way. And then she got me a viola. So I started doing that too. And I can't play any of these anymore, but it meant that I could really actually read music. And I did music proficiency, all of that stuff. and did graded tests, the whole lot. Singing was happening in concert with all of that. They had a choir. I don't know how this happened.

And I think it's because of Miss Rycroft. And strangely enough, my science teacher, Mr. Safo J, who somehow put this together, we started singing with a big choir in the UK and we would do like requiems every year. I loved doing that because of the big sound of all these voices together. So Requiem is a huge choral piece with all the voices, tenors, bass, soprano, alto, mezzo soprano.

And occasionally you'll have recitatives in between where they're like solo lines that would end up with big choral numbers. And usually it's a long piece written but separated by particular movements. We did Carmina Burana. And Carmina Burana, you wouldn't know the name, you would know the sound of Carmina Burana.

I bet if you do ten more measures, I might get it. Have you ever watched Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann version? Love. That musical, big choral thing is that. And we did another piece called The Rutter Requiem by John Rutter, and that is one of my favorite pieces ever. But it contains a piece called P.A. Yesu, and there are like three different P.A. Yesus.

But these are the pieces that we would do. That's how I learned about... Classical singing. And so she made me learn Schubert Lieder, the whole lot. So I expanded my classical taste in music at secondary school. Wow. Whilst running alongside with everything else and learning how my voice worked elsewhere. And just my outside love of music anyways.

And my mom is playing Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross in the car.

Yeah. And I'm learning all of that. How about Window Seat?

Have I got a window seat?

I love it.

She's brilliant. She's one of the artists, singers that has gotten better and better and better as time has gone on. I just recently saw her in concert in London. How late was she? Because I've seen her four times.

No, she wasn't. She wasn't.

She wasn't late. I think she was maybe like 20 minutes, 10 minutes or something. Oh, wow.

And she was on. It was amazing. Yeah, good. Boomer came out as well. It was so good. There's an artist called Duran Banar. He does her backing vocals, but he's an amazing vocalist on his own. He was out. It was amazing. I went with my sister on my best friend. We had the best time.

Oh, my God. Gosh, she had her jewelry and her hat. She had these really cool trousers, pants that were like chaps actually, but had like teddy bears on them. It was just wild. The whole thing was wild. I was obsessed. It was brilliant. But yeah, that's how my proficiency for music, because I've had such a vast experience of it from loads of different sources, onwards.

There's like 30 to 40 voices singing at once. Yeah. Or at the top of their voices.

In harmony.

It's transcendent. There's nothing like it. And it's ringing in your ears, but you can feel it in the back of your head at the same time. It's like a short circuit. And sometimes it's what I feel when an orchestra is playing all together. There's nothing like it.

We're not going to do a car crash. I can't. I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to pull over to the side of the road. We're going to just start again. Let's get back into the right space. And I'm going to take you exactly where you're supposed to go in the right fashion. We're not focused here.

My experience is sort of enhanced by the fact that I experience anesthesia. So I see color. You have that. I see color when I hear music. So for me, it's like a full sensory thing. You're on acid.

You can talk about the science all day long and what it is and sound waves and all of that. But actually, we can't really crack the code on why it affects people the way it does. We can't crack how this piece connects with that person but doesn't connect with this person. Why do we all understand this particular language? We might speak it differently, but there are a finite amount.

The notes are the same. It's just how we experience it. Why do we experience it like that?

I believe that. This might sound like the nerdiest thing I've ever said, but my favorite scale is chromatic. Say it again.

all the notes in between a chromatic scale a chromatic scale yeah because it leaves none of the notes out oh but it's not just humans animals yes they do yeah and they won't shut the fuck up whales whales they're all tonal notes and music however you experience it it's the one thing that connects every single being on the planet it's the one thing we all have in common

Yeah, we're swerving too much here. It's not good. We're all over the road.

I really have enjoyed this immensely. This has been really fun.

I hope so.

The second one is coming out the same time next year. Oh, okay. 22nd November next year.

That took about a year. We started rehearsals August 2022, started shooting December.

Yeah. Yeah. We needed it. Of course. It was a mammoth.

Started shooting it in December, came to a halt in June or July. I can't remember for the writing strike or actor strike, both. And then came back top of this year in January, finished in February. Wow.

She's great. She's experienced a lot and she's a sweetheart. And what people don't realize is that she's experienced real heartbreak.

And it's the wrong thing to be taught. Sometimes you keep going. Sometimes if you can and you can get back into it quickly, keep going. But if you need to stop and refocus, stop and refocus because the audience will say, oh, you know it too. You were experiencing it too. Okay, so I wasn't insane. That means you're taking care of me. I can trust you.

I've heard you talk about her.

I love her. She's a bright spark, but you just want to like... Take care of her. Yeah. Give her a big old hug. And we really took care of each other. This was like a big one for us. We used to joke that the two of us were like dust by the end of it because we were working to the bone. I mean, whatever scratches, scrapes, cuts, bruises you think you could get, we had them.

The flying in harnesses, chafing, we had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chafing was like a funny word to me until I realized what chafing actually looked like when you had it repetitively.

My gosh. It took months for my hips to just heal. Scratched palms, bleeding. I had a bloody nose. Like it was mad. We were in this. The whole way. Outside, she's got basically her arms out all the time. When it's cold, it's cold. There's nothing you can do about it. You want to fly outside? Okay, we're flying outside. Is it windy? Yes. Tough.

Is it raining today? Yep. It won't show on camera, so we're going to do it. That kind of thing. We were willing to do whatever it took to do this. You want to be in at 3 a.m.? Be in at 3 a.m. We're going to finish this makeup because we need to be on set by 5.

But here's the thing, I'm gonna top you there. I'm gonna say, think of putting on a harness and then throwing a corset at the same time. No thanks. Because the corset's already hitting your hips, right? And now you put the harness on top of the corset.

Yes.

Can I come back even if I don't have to promote something? Yes, of course. This was fun.

Oh, my goodness.

I would love that. A choir club? It's really cool. Do you know how lovely that would be?

Oh my gosh. I would love that. I will. Thank you.

Yes.

This ain't it. And this is not what I want to do. This is not what you want to listen to. We're going to go back to the beginning. It also says that I'm in control of this and I've got you. I won't take you down this road where it doesn't make sense.

That's too far.

Yes. Yes, I did.

Beautiful.

Yes.

However, what he didn't do was continue on with what was already pre-planned. What he did was start something totally new.

You see what I'm saying? Great counter. Which means that he was completely in control of the situation. He said, what we were planning, out the window. There's no power. I can't do this. And then just let me filter whatever I can filter through in the present moment.

Okay.

Yeah. That she gave it a shot for something she loves. That is sweet. And also, I feel really cool.

I feel really cool that your 11 year old was like, yeah.

As in between here and America?

It's weird because when I first moved here, I moved to New York and that felt the most similar to London specifically. But the thing that America and the UK as a whole have very similarly is that there are cities, places that it feels really multicultural and it's really like busy. And then you move further out and it becomes really disparate.

I'm not having the same experience in London that someone is having in, I don't know, Yorkshire. Yorkshire is a beautiful, beautiful place. The vibe is very different and it just feels different. So it's the same as if I'm here in LA or I'm here in New York. It's very different than if I'm in Georgia.

Yeah. Because we have to. Why do you have to? Well, there are certain things that we're just not allowed to have in our food that you're okay to have in food here. Oh, like chemically? Oh, like poison. Yeah, chemically. Yeah, yeah. We're like not allowed to have certain things.

Well, I don't think we have. Do we have the UFC? Yes, Conor McGregor. Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like there's a part of him that's just like the most gentle, sweetest thing in the world.

I think so. Yeah. It's just like gone one step too far. But oh, I hope he finds a little bit of healing.

But I think there's something that has to be healed within himself first. It's also easily passed on to his kids. And that anger, that dismay, it's easily rubbed off.

Do you have kids? I don't, no. Do you want them? I don't think so. I'm good with kids, though.

I think there's a part of me that does believe in it because I'm very Capricorn to a T, which disturbs me somewhat because it annoys me.

They're annoyed by the fact that it's accurate. The predictability. I hate it. I'm like, okay, so I'm stubborn. Good. Great. Overachieving. Yes. Understood. Do I like nice things? Yes. I like nice things.

All the time. Do I plan people's lives? Yes. Am I emotionally adept sometimes? Yes. Do I keep my feelings to myself for a really long time? Yes. Am I working through it? Yes.

Completely. Am I right a lot of the times? Yes. Does it annoy people? Yes. Do I like saying I told you so? Not always.

You don't have to sneak out. You can come back if you want to.

Oh, enjoy. Bye.

Cole?

I've known her since I was 16.

She's one of the most phenomenal human beings in the world.

I May Destroy You.

You have to see it. Also, before you see I May Destroy You, see Chewing Gum, which I'm in for like an episode or two. But it's just brilliant. Oh, I'm so excited. And people don't realize that is originally based on a long-form poem that she wrote. I remember the first time I saw this poem, because she performed it live.

I can't even remember where we were, but it was like somewhere in Holloway or something, like this small little theater. And it was like a one-woman poem where she played all these different roles. And then it just expanded into this TV show.

black woman who is queer, who shows up in this way, there's something that I have that many other Elphabas don't have. They don't know what it is like to walk through the world like this. I do. And so that innately, immediately makes me completely different. And the way he shot it, the space that he gave me to do it, it's fucking awesome. I bet it's so sick.

Thank you.

How do you build a community? How do you grow a group of riders to get to know each other, to get to know you, to want to come back every week to take the same class from the same person?

Noon on Monday.

I was working on a screenplay to describe my life at SoulCycle. Looking back, there was a lot of coyote ugly energy of like appear available, but never be available.

Without saying it, I think there's the side of, well, you have to look good on the bike.

Even broader than sexuality, it's about like what's attractive in a class, whether that's your availability, your vulnerability, your speech pattern, your body. There's a very gray area that I'm kind of comfortable with because I grew up doing like theater and musicals and like you're playing with emotion, you're playing with experience.

Offering to help someone that you don't know with skills that you don't have. I'm sure everyone is duly impressed. I could care less what others think. Couldn't. What? You couldn't care less what other people think. Though, I doubt that.

What? What are you staring at? Do I have something in my teeth? No, it's just... you're green. I am. Fine. Let's get this over with. No, I am not seasick. No, I did not eat grass as a child. And yes, I've always been green.

So we don't differentiate the two so far apart that we're afraid of one of them because they're sort of one and the same. And I think that because I was already in tune with my singing voice, what Philip did with me was encourage me to try new things. try more. So he would have me singing arias from Othello.

So we don't differentiate the two so far apart that we're afraid of one of them because they're sort of one and the same. And I think that because I was already in tune with my singing voice, what Philip did with me was encourage me to try new things. try more. So he would have me singing arias from Othello.

I was comfortable classical music was sort of a love of mine and then when I went to drama school my voice was already sort of ready to try that and it's the same whilst I was doing The Color Purple my singing teacher June

I was comfortable classical music was sort of a love of mine and then when I went to drama school my voice was already sort of ready to try that and it's the same whilst I was doing The Color Purple my singing teacher June

Joan Lader, rather, who's wonderful, she would give me classical music or opera to sing, because she said that the best way to allow my voice to be open enough to sing what I was singing on stage was to just try something that was totally opposite to it. So you weren't taxing your voice the same way the entire time. You were just sort of opening it up and exercising it, but not stressing it.

Joan Lader, rather, who's wonderful, she would give me classical music or opera to sing, because she said that the best way to allow my voice to be open enough to sing what I was singing on stage was to just try something that was totally opposite to it. So you weren't taxing your voice the same way the entire time. You were just sort of opening it up and exercising it, but not stressing it.

I'll do one of the first things I did, um, at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of like the end of year, um, like choral show. And, um, this one year we decided to do, uh, Rutter Requiem, the Rutter Requiem by John Rutter. Um, And I was asked to sing P.A. There's a version of P.A. Yesu for the Gianratto Requiem, and it's very special.

I'll do one of the first things I did, um, at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of like the end of year, um, like choral show. And, um, this one year we decided to do, uh, Rutter Requiem, the Rutter Requiem by John Rutter. Um, And I was asked to sing P.A. There's a version of P.A. Yesu for the Gianratto Requiem, and it's very special.

Who knows if I can still do these notes, but I'll give it a go. Ahem.

Who knows if I can still do these notes, but I'll give it a go. Ahem.

Dona eis requiem Requiem aeternam Dona eis domine Dona eis domine Then it would change keys. Pies o domine And this key change is always really difficult. Oh, so beautiful.

Dona eis requiem Requiem aeternam Dona eis domine Dona eis domine Then it would change keys. Pies o domine And this key change is always really difficult. Oh, so beautiful.

I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place, the way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's almost like even the way you use the muscles in your face, often to make those sounds, they're Your jaw has to be slightly lowered and relaxed.

I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place, the way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's almost like even the way you use the muscles in your face, often to make those sounds, they're Your jaw has to be slightly lowered and relaxed.

And often, I don't know if you, when you watch me sing, you'll see that I sing often with a bit of a smile on. One, I'm enjoying myself. But two, when you smile, everything else is relaxed.

And often, I don't know if you, when you watch me sing, you'll see that I sing often with a bit of a smile on. One, I'm enjoying myself. But two, when you smile, everything else is relaxed.

When I meet the wizard, once I prove my worth. Then I meet the wizard, what I've waited for since birth. And with all his wizard wisdom, by my looks...

When I meet the wizard, once I prove my worth. Then I meet the wizard, what I've waited for since birth. And with all his wizard wisdom, by my looks...

She surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse, so she got that and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, okay, I got my nursing degree. And now what else do I want? I think she definitely wanted to be in the UK with children. I know she wanted children. I think she wanted more children than she has, but she's very happy with the two that she does. And I think...

She surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse. So she got that and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, okay, I got my nursing degree. And now what else do I want? I think she definitely wanted to be in the UK with children. I know she wanted children. I think she wanted more children than she has, but she's very happy with the two that she does.

that she sort of learned after the dream of being a nurse came true that she had this sort of passion for taking care of children full stop and so she focused her studies on the cognitive health of children and ended up becoming there's a position in the UK called a health visitor and

And I think that she sort of learnt after the dream of being a nurse came true that she had this sort of passion for taking care of children full stop. And so she focused her studies on the cognitive health of children and ended up becoming, there's a position in the UK called Health Visitor.

And her job specifically is to help new mothers with children from the age of, say, one month almost to the age of three. Just with like learning cognitive skills and making sure that the mother isn't suffering from postpartum.

And her job specifically is to help new mothers with children from the age of, say, one month almost to the age of three. Just with learning cognitive skills and making sure that the mother isn't suffering from postpartum. And if they are, then she can help and she makes sure that the children are latching in the right way or...

And if they are, then she can help, and she makes sure that the children are latching in the right way, or if there's anything going on, or if there's colic, all of those things. All the things that you might panic about if you don't have any guidance, my mother is there to help you with. That's what her job used to be. And she sort of flew with it.

If there's anything going on or there's colic or all of those things, all the things that you would you might panic about if you don't have any guidance. My mother is there to help you with. That's what her job used to be. And she sort of flew with it. She got rose to the top of her ranks on that one. Yeah.

She got Rose to the top of her ranks on that one.

Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, she's cool. It's really fun. I realise that she's like the child whisperer. It's really fun watching her with other people's children because they don't really know how it's done and I don't know how it's done. I feel like I've been... It feels like it's in our genes because I end up being the same with kids and I don't really need to do very much and...

Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, she's cool. It's really fun. I realise that she's like the child whisperer. It's really fun watching her with other people's children because they don't really know how it's done and I don't know how it's done. I feel like I've been, it feels like it's in our genes because I end up being the same with kids and I don't really need to do very much and

Kids sort of are like, oh, look, what's this interesting looking being sitting next to me? I want to know who that person is. And we're off to the races. It's hilarious. I think she passed it on.

Kids sort of are like, oh, look, what's this interesting looking being sitting next to me? I want to know who that person is. And we're off to the races. It's hilarious. I think she passed it on.

He told just me. He told me that he was out of our lives. And I sort of had to relay the message to everyone. Yeah. What was your reaction? Could you see that coming? I didn't see it coming, although in hindsight I probably should have seen it coming, but I didn't see it coming because, you know, what 16-year-old would?

He told just me. He told me that he was out of our lives. And I sort of had to relay the message to everyone. Yeah. What was your reaction? Could you see that coming? I didn't see it coming, although in hindsight I probably should have seen it coming, but I didn't see it coming because, you know, what 16-year-old would?

At the time I was heartbroken because it was in public when it happened as well, so it was just, like, not fun. But, yeah, it was deeply disappointing, deeply heartbreaking. And I think I... felt bad for having to have to bring that information back to my house, to my mum and my sister. And I remember it was in the middle of a school day, so I still had to go through school.

At the time I was heartbroken because it was in public when it happened as well, so it was just, like, not fun. But, yeah, it was deeply disappointing, deeply heartbreaking. And I think I... felt bad for having to have to bring that information back to my house, to my mum and my sister. And I remember it was in the middle of a school day, so I still had to go through school.

That was not fun. Did he give you an explanation? No, not really, no. No, I think he just had, I think he was finished being a dad.

I, I, I don't know if I was thinking about that. I, I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me. And I think it was just sort of as simple as that. He was doing something that he knew would hurt me to be mean and spiteful, but I knew that he was going to stick to it. I knew that it wasn't like a jab that he would take back at some point.

I don't know. I, I, I, I don't know if I was thinking about that.

I, I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me. And I think it was just sort of as simple as that. He was doing something that he knew would hurt me to be mean and spiteful, but I knew that he was going to stick to it. I knew that it wasn't like a jab that he would take back at some point. Have you spoken to him since? No. Wow.

Have you spoken to him since? No. Well, actually, tell a lie. I bumped into him randomly at a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello, and that's it, when I was 25.

Actually, tell a lie, I bumped into him randomly at a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello, and that's it, when I was 25.

Yeah. So when I wrote it, we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up-tempo song. We needed something that felt upbeat and that felt fun. But I love writing ballads. I love writing love songs.

Yeah. So when I wrote it, we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up-tempo song. We needed something with like...

that felt upbeat and that felt fun but I love writing ballads I love writing love songs I can't help it it's sort of I'm so I'm a mid-tempo don't need to apologize that's what I do and like I enjoy them um I enjoy singing because of the space in them but then and so as we started writing I thought what can you make this about and my friend who is also the EP on this album with me he said

I can't help it it's sort of I'm so I'm a mid-tempo song that's what I do and I'm like I enjoy them um I enjoy singing because of the space in them but then and so as we started writing I thought what can you make this about and my friend who is also the EP on this album with me he said that he had been talking to a friend of ours about the relationship that she had had with her

that he had been talking to a friend of ours about the relationship that she had had with her father. She said that the relationship wasn't great all the time, but they were starting to rebuild and that they were starting to have some really good moments. And then he passed away. And then she said, but she just wants to remember the good.

father she said that the relationship wasn't great um all the time um but they were starting to rebuild and that they were starting to have some really good moments and then he passed away and then she said but she just wants to remember the good And the light bulb went off, and I was like, that's the song. That's the song.

And the light bulb went off, and I was like, that's the song. That's the song. The song is about remembering the good, even when something ends maybe not in the best of ways.

The song is about remembering the good, even when something ends maybe not in the best of ways.

Doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe. Wish we could stop and feel the pain. what i can see holding my chest as all my tears fall out my mind's in a spin as all the pain pours down what can i do to make these days go by i haven't the strength to make the rain fall i just want to remember Darkness surrounds me, but I see the light. Just want to remember the good.

Doesn't spring from it see holding my chest as all my tears fall out my mind's in a spin as all the pain pours down what can i do to make these days go by i haven't the strength to make the rain fall i just want to remember

I don't know because I never, I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am. I did not realize it. I was reading about you and I was like, really? I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels, but like often when I'm with other people, they're also like dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing next to them, they're like, oh my goodness, you're really small.

I don't know because I never, I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am. I did not realize it. I was reading about you and I was like, really? I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels, but like often when I'm with other people, they're also like dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing next to them, they're like, oh my goodness, you're really small.

I think there have been times often that people assume that because you're small, you are weak or because you're small. Sometimes people, they often decide that because you're small, you're also childlike, which sometimes is really strange because you have to sort of correct people and let them understand, well, actually, I'm a fully grown adult. I just happen to be small. So...

I think there have been times often that people assume that because you're small, you are weak or because you're small. Sometimes people, they often decide that because you're small, you're also childlike, which sometimes is really strange because you have to sort of correct people and let them understand, well, actually, I'm a fully grown adult. I just happen to be small. So...

my understanding of what you are saying or what anyone else is saying is just the same.

my understanding of what you are saying or what anyone else is saying is just the same.

As if your legs are swinging off the ground. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to like perch to the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground. Podiums? Podiums are hilarious because sometimes you're also like, you know what, today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal height.

So your legs are swinging off the ground. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to like perch to the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground. Podiums? Podiums are hilarious because sometimes you're also like, you know what, today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal height.

and reach this thing so I'm not having to tiptoe ever so slightly or wear, you know, 15-inch heels. That it's sort of like, it's that. You have to take the good with the bad with it, definitely. Stools, high chairs are really sometimes quite difficult because... You know, if you're singing and you want to sit, you're often on a stool.

and reach this thing so i'm not having to tiptoe ever so slightly or wear you know 15 inch heels that it's sort of like it's that you you have to take the good with the bad with it definitely um stools high chairs are really sometimes quite difficult because you know if you're singing and you want to sit you're often on a stool so you have to try and make sure that the stool is not too high for you to sit on

And so I always make the compromise with whatever dress I'm wearing or whatever clothes, because if they cover my feet, you can't see how far my feet are from the ground.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. You are wonderful. So thank you.

This has been so much fun. You are wonderful. So thank you.

That I'm stuck like glue. Cause I ain't never, I ain't never, I ain't never, no, no, loved a man the way that I, I love him.

That I'm stuck like glue. Cause I ain't never, I ain't never, I ain't never, no, no, loved a man the way that I, I love him.

When I was a kid, and we were... So there's this radio station in the UK called Magic FM, and it plays everything. Everything from, let's say, I don't know if you know a band called Mike and the Mechanics, to the Eurythmics, to Kate Bush, to Aretha, to Gladys Knight, Patti LaBelle, Lauryn Hill, the whole lot. And so when we were only...

When I was a kid, and we were... So there's this radio station in the UK called Magic FM, and it plays everything. Everything from, let's say, I don't know if you know a band called Mike and the Mechanics, to the Eurythmics, to Kate Bush, to Aretha, to Gladys Knight, Patti LaBelle, Lauryn Hill, the whole lot. And so when we were only...

be on the way to school, my mum would always have that radio station on. And the first time I heard it, it was from there. I think, I want to say the first thing I heard was sisters are doing it for themselves. And then I heard, I think it was Till You Come Back to Me. So I had heard Aretha in like two different ways. One with Annie Lennox and then one on her own from two different times.

be on the way to school, my mum would always have that radio station on. And the first time I heard it, it was from there. I think, I want to say the first thing I heard was sisters are doing it for themselves. And then I heard, I think it was Till You Come Back to Me. So I had heard Aretha in like two different ways. One with Annie Lennox and then one on her own from two different times.

And I just sort of fell in love. I didn't really, I didn't really know because I didn't know who that was. And then I started asking questions and my mum told me it was Aretha Franklin. And so I was aware of How much I loved music and that I wanted to be a singer and I just sort of fell in love with her voice.

And I just sort of fell in love. I didn't really, I didn't really know because I didn't know who that was. And then I started asking questions and my mum told me it was Aretha Franklin. And so I was aware of How much I loved music and that I wanted to be a singer and I just sort of fell in love with her voice.

The fact that she could do that with Annie Lennox and then that on her own just was astounding to me. Did you try to emulate her? I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had. And I started learning her music pretty, pretty early. Yeah.

The fact that she could do that with Annie Lennox and then that on her own just was astounding to me. Did you try to emulate her? I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had. And I started learning her music pretty, pretty early. Yeah.

It's time to try. Defying gravity I think I'll try Defying gravity And you can't pull me down Can't I make you understand You're having delusions of grandeur I'm through accepting limits

It's time to try. Defying gravity I think I'll try Defying gravity And you can't pull me down Can't I make you understand You're having delusions of grandeur I'm through accepting limits

Oh, yeah. Why was that important? Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, if you look at a sentence, where the comma goes tells you what the sentence means. If I say, today I've been feeling really, really bad. But, and now I say, today I've been feeling really bad. Bad. But it'll be all right.

Oh, yeah. Why was that important? Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, if you look at a sentence, where the comma goes tells you what the sentence means. If I say, today I've been feeling really, really bad. But, and now I say, today I've been feeling really bad. Bad. But it'll be all right.

Well, now it's one is I feel ill and one is emotionally I feel bad. You see? And so when she would breathe in different places and it would change the sentence structure, it would change the meaning of the song. Another person might sing it a completely different way. Can you sing us an example of what you mean? Sure. I use the song often to explain it because it's one, it's a beautiful song.

Well, now it's one is I feel ill and one is emotionally I feel bad. You see? And so when she would breathe in different places and it would change the sentence structure, it would change the meaning of the song. Another person might sing it a completely different way. Can you sing us an example of what you mean? Sure. I use the song often to explain it because it's one, it's a beautiful song.

And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, just is a wonderful example of how the breath work changes. It's called Never Grow Old. I had to learn it for the Amazing Grace episode. And it, It goes like this. The sentence is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand. That's the sentence. The normal way to sing it is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand.

And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, just is a wonderful example of how the breath work changes. It's called Never Grow Old. I had to learn it for the Amazing Grace episode. And it, It goes like this. The sentence is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand. That's the sentence. The normal way to sing it is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand.

Right? She sings. I have heard of a land on a far, far

Right? She sings. I have heard of a land on a far, far

She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the explanation. Because it's a difference between... Moving from one note to the other really quickly, I have heard, as opposed to I have heard. of a land, you know?

She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the explanation. Because it's a difference between... Moving from one note to the other really quickly, I have heard, as opposed to I have heard. of a land, you know?

I think I was that. I didn't really know what to say, but I was also sort of disarmed by how funny she was. She was so, like... jovial she joked that when I first met her she sang the last sentence of my big song back at me and so I almost fell over because Aretha Franklin is singing and I'm here back at me and I just I didn't know what to to do I think I just laughed I was like oh my god um

I think I was that. I didn't really know what to say, but I was also sort of disarmed by how funny she was. She was so, like... jovial she joked that when I first met her she sang the last sentence of my big song back at me and so I almost fell over because Aretha Franklin is singing and I'm here back at me and I just I didn't know what to to do I think I just laughed I was like oh my god um

Cause someone says they're so Some things I cannot change But till I try I'll never know Too long I've been afraid of Losing love I guess I've lost Well if that's love It comes at much too high a cost I'd sooner abide Defying gravity

Cause someone says they're so Some things I cannot change But till I try I'll never know Too long I've been afraid of Losing love I guess I've lost Well if that's love It comes at much too high a cost I'd sooner abide Defying gravity

And I remember her saying, well, you can sing. I was like, oh my God, this is nuts. It just, you know, I don't know if I needed anything more meaningful than that, to be honest, because if the Queen of Soul can remember you as the person who can sing, well, wonderful. Wonderful.

And I remember her saying, well, you can sing. I was like, oh my God, this is nuts. It just, you know, I don't know if I needed anything more meaningful than that, to be honest, because if the Queen of Soul can remember you as the person who can sing, well, wonderful. Wonderful.

I did grow up in church, but different because I'm Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. But I was a bit of a rebel. So when... I was in church. It was a lot of like Christian hymns. And I wanted more because I was sort of, I was listening to gospel music and I was learning about gospel singers and I was learning about that sound. And I wanted to I wanted to hear it in my own church.

I did grow up in church, but different because I'm Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. But I was a bit of a rebel. So when... I was in church. It was a lot of like Christian hymns. And I wanted more because I was sort of, I was listening to gospel music and I was learning about gospel singers and I was learning about that sound. And I wanted to I wanted to hear it in my own church.

So one of the churches, when we moved to East London from South London, and that church had a choir. So I remember they asked if I could join the choir, and so I did. And then somehow I managed to... end up being, like, one of the conductors of the choir. And I would just, like, sneak gospel songs in from time to time and just have them, like, sing a couple gospel songs.

So one of the churches, when we moved to East London from South London, and that church had a choir. So I remember they asked if I could join the choir, and so I did. And then somehow I managed to... end up being, like, one of the conductors of the choir. And I would just, like, sneak gospel songs in from time to time and just have them, like, sing a couple gospel songs.

Consequently, I got into trouble for it. And they were like, you can't sing those songs in here anymore. And I never understood why, because I felt like All music that was for the same reason was equal and was meaningful.

Consequently, I got into trouble for it. And they were like, you can't sing those songs in here anymore. And I never understood why, because I felt like all music that was for the same reason was equal and was meaningful.

I think it's the style of singing. I think the style of singing was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight-laced way of praising that's correct music. for the Catholic Church. There's a specific way that you should do it and a specific thing that you can sing. There are specific songs and anything outside of the lines is too far.

I think the style of singing was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight-laced way of praising that's correct music. for the Catholic Church. There's a specific way that you should do it and a specific thing that you can sing. There are specific songs and anything outside of the lines is too far.

Very much so, yes.

Very much so, yes.

Yeah, I just because I didn't know that that was even a possibility. When I was going through primary school or secondary school, no one was like, you can go to drama school. No one gave me that option. So the whole thing was revelatory. Like the first year was both discovery and a struggle and a half because I just like, what am I doing?

Yeah, I just because I didn't know that that was even a possibility. When I was going through primary school or secondary school, no one was like, you can go to drama school. No one gave me that option. So the whole thing was revelatory. Like the first year was both discovery and a struggle and a half because I just like, what am I doing?

doing here and i so there's so many things i don't really understand is what was my strong suit was that i was a little bit different to most people that i was one of the kids that was good at singing and we had a particularly musical year so there were a couple of other kids who could sing too and actually being able to sing was really useful and and when i started to embrace

doing here and i so there's so many things i don't really understand is what was my strong suit was that i was a little bit different to most people that i was one of the kids that was good at singing and we had a particularly musical year so there were a couple of other kids who could sing too and actually being able to sing was really useful and and when i started to embrace

that I sort of could see where the opportunities were. Some people were really wonderful at the classics and at Jacobi's and, you know, those kids that came from Eton who had read those things were brilliant at those things. But I wasn't that. My raw talent came from and understanding music. So when we started talking about Sondheim and learning those songs, for me, I was in heaven.

that I sort of could see where the opportunities were. Some people were really wonderful at the classics and at Jacobi's and, you know, those kids that came from Eton who had read those things were brilliant at those things. But I wasn't that. My raw talent came from and understanding music. So when we started talking about Sondheim and learning those songs, for me, I was in heaven.

And when we started reading Seven Guitars by August Wilson, I recognised myself in those people because, well, it was a black writer writing about black people and I could see myself in them. And those are plays I had read and there's a playwright I'd heard of. And when you're passionate about music,

And when we started reading Seven Guitars by August Wilson, I recognised myself in those people because, well, it was a black writer writing about black people and I could see myself in them. And those are plays I had read and there's a playwright I'd heard of. And when you're passionate about music,

acting, Shakespeare was where we all sort of like joined hands because, well, we all knew Shakespeare, but now I could have a sort of a real grasp on the scope at which he wrote.

acting, Shakespeare was where we all sort of like joined hands because, well, we all knew Shakespeare, but now I could have a sort of a real grasp on the scope at which he wrote.

I loved Being Alive, and I loved The Middle Son. Have you ever heard The Middle Son?

I loved Being Alive, and I loved The Middle Son. Have you ever heard The Middle Son?

Yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. That is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence. Can you give us an example of what you mean? Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. That is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence. Can you give us an example of what you mean? Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time.

They say, it's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle and a grass and I'll trip the light pandango.

They say, it's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle and a grass and I'll trip the light pandango.

A pinch and a diddle in the middle of what passes by. It's a very short road from the pinch and the punch to the porch and the pouch and the pension. It's a very short road to the 10,000th lunch and the porch and the pouch and the sigh. In the meanwhile, there are mouths to be kissed before mouths to be fed and a lot in between in the meanwhile. And the girl has to celebrate.

A pinch and a diddle in the middle of what passes by. It's a very short road from the pinch and the punch to the porch and the pouch and the pension. It's a very short road to the 10,000th lunch and the porch and the pouch and the sigh. In the meanwhile, there are mouths to be kissed before mouths to be fed and a lot in between in the meanwhile. And the girl has to celebrate.

What passes by, oh, I shall marry the mill of sun.

What passes by, oh, I shall marry the mill of sun.

I had a really lovely teacher at Rada. It was Philip. He was just... He was wonderful, actually. I will say that my singing teacher at Brada, we're all sort of assigned a singing teacher. Most of us, because we've never sung before, um... So we can learn about what that is and learn how to connect the singing voice and the singing breath with the speaking voice and the speaking breath.

I had a really lovely teacher at Rada. It was Philip. He was just... He was wonderful, actually. I will say that my singing teacher at Brada, we're all sort of assigned a singing teacher. Most of us, because we've never sung before, um... So we can learn about what that is and learn how to connect the singing voice and the singing breath with the speaking voice and the speaking breath.

Yeah, it's true.

I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film. It's not just for little girls. It's not just for kids. That it's actually for everyone. It is something for everyone in it. And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that No men can understand what's going on.

We don't say that of films that are mainly male. And most films are mainly male. I mean, we have the Irishman, which was quite frankly, all men, but nobody is saying this is a do film. No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film. We go and we watch good cinema. That's aimed at you, Scott.

She told me Taylor Swift helped her get the role, like signed off on her audition.

That's really powerful. That's what I wanted.

If Trump wins, we're out of here.

What do we do now?

That's really powerful. That's why I want it.

Like, by my ankle.

Because that's where my pulse is. Right. Or I put it, like, on my hip.

Yeah.

Like, just trying to get the steps in full stop. Like, if we're on a break, I'm not sitting down.

Yeah, but the thing is it was sort of like nice to be like, oh, this is where I'm going to move to this now. On my little mini breaks, I'm going to do some steps. I'm going to walk. I'm going to move. As opposed to like being sedentary because that's the thing on set sometimes. You can fall into being really sedentary and just not moving.

Yeah, and just waiting.

I am a busybody.

Yeah, I'm not going to eat it ever, never. I'm like that weird school kid who only brings her own food to the set. I make my own food and bring it to the set.

Yeah, I have like a little lunchbox.

Well, I can't change out of the costume. I'm just like moving.

Yeah.

Boots, but it was a proper heel. So depending on what part of, what stage of which I was, which changed. So at the beginning, there was sort of a shorter boot with a shorter heel. And the heel got higher and the boot got taller as she changed.

Pilates and walking and running.

I do.

I'm in the On Cloud.

Yeah.

I love them. They're great. They're really comfortable.

If I'm walking, I do the ones that are closer to the ground. But if I'm running, I do the Cloud Boost, I think.

I've never tried the hookers.

Yeah. You're way up there. You're too high. However, there is a Nike one that has, like, it's a Zoom, I think. It's got a weird shape to it. I use those to run the marathon. They're amazing.

I do a full marathon. I've done a couple full marathons and a few half marathons.

It is a lot. It is a lot.

It does, which is why I don't do it as often as I want to. But I try and do one, I mean, every couple of years I'm probably doing a marathon.

Well, here's the thing. That's an interesting question. People think that when you're running, you're running from something. I think I'm running from like, I think I'm all running to all of the things I'm thinking of because I kind of use running to process things.

It feels like a meditation for me.

Yeah.

I don't either.

Well, because I think you are actually like paying attention to what is around you when you're.

Yes. Because when you have music on, you're listening to lyrics and you know how long the song is. And then you know how long the next song is. You do songs about three minutes. So if there's only one song playing, it's only three minutes gone. So it feels like the time is taking a really long time. If you're not listening to anything, you don't know what.

You're just going with what your body wants to go with. And essentially, trying not to sound hokey here, but you are listening to what your body needs to listen to. Yeah. So if you need to put more energy into your thigh or your leg, then that's where it goes. If you need to put more energy into your breathing, that's where it goes.

Or if you need to be in your head for a second, then you can be in your head for a second. So that's why it doesn't take as long, I think, when you're not listening to music.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

It doesn't work. If I'm on the treadmill, I put an iPad up and I just watch something. And I'll find a film that is stupid amounts of time so that I know I'm not going to finish the film.

Just find a film, find a book, something, anything. Or I'm like a busybody and I visit everyone if I'm sat for an email at the time.

No, I don't necessarily eat. Well, I mean, it's regular for me.

But it's probably not regular for other people.

I've been vegan for a long time. You're vegan? Yeah. But I'm like, I love fruit and veg. I'm like a proper like fruit and veg eater.

And occasionally I'll go and have like a meat replacement. Not much? Not much.

Because there's no need. Mushrooms do all of the work for you.

Yeah. You can make them taste like anything.

Well, I try to get protein because I try to do a protein shake in the morning. And I'm trying to be better about it. I think I can probably find it in beans and things like that. That's what I do, yeah. That's basically it. Tempeh? I don't like the texture of tempeh.

Oh, I like the texture of tofu. But here's the thing. Because you can do things like, what's the thing I like to do? Mousse, chocolate mousse. You can make chocolate mousse with tofu. And it doesn't, there's no, it's like the texture of mousse.

See, I just, I like, I'll make it myself. Yeah, me too. I'll do what I want myself. Yeah. I feel the same about like smoothies. Yeah. If you get someone else to make a smoothie. Too much sugar. Too much sugar, but also not enough ice ever. So it's always like liquid and I want it to be a smoothie, which means it's supposed to be thick.

It's supposed to be thick and cold.

And then they make it into like milk. Yeah. And I'm just like.

Yes.

Yes. That's what I want.

That's what I'm saying.

That's what I'm saying. That's what I want.

I want this to fill me. I want it to be filling. I don't want it to feel like a drink.

But you just don't need that much sugar in a smoothie if you put the right ingredients in. Everything else has, it's like fruit is naturally sweet.

No.

No. It's not good. You just don't need it.

I'm buying them.

I am buying these shoes.

I would love to work it out. Why have I not?

Okay, true. All right. Come on now.

And I use them until they are, like, dead in the ground.

Please, can someone do that for me? Do you hear that? Because my shoes are torn up. I am wearing them till they are nothing.

Immediately.

Please, because I've been like, I vacillate between the two. So I'm wearing the On Cloud Cloudburst ones. Okay, getting specific. See, this is what I'm saying. Now you know I actually wear them, right?

And then the way it does like a flat runner.

I love them because of how the sole moves. It's like really like dexterous. I can hike with those and feel great.

They make a hiking on?

Okay.

What did you say?

Like a dog actually bit your ear?

This is like fatalistic thinking to the max. Oh, yeah, I'm good at that. How did you get from the dog bit my ear to I can't hike?

This is crazy.

I once did a hike, and I really, I actually really almost got completely lost, like, in the middle of the forest. That can happen. I went on a dead trail.

It was bad. Where was that? I was, where was I? I want to, I can't even remember where I'd gone. But, like, was it Laurel Canyon or something like that?

It might have been up here. Was it hot? It was very hot.

It was really hot, and I was following a map, and it took me down a dead trail.

So it was, like, covered in leaves, and I was like, well, I don't know if this is the right direction, but it's the only direction it's giving me, so I'm just going to keep going.

And I'm like, I could feel like I was coming away from everybody else. Everyone is going in a different direction, and I seem to be going in a different direction and down.

So it's getting dark.

No, but it felt like I was in the middle of nowhere.

And when I got down there, there was a tree that had fallen over. So that was in the way. And then there was – so I went over the tree. I couldn't get over the tree. It's not crazy.

And then there's a gate.

There's like a fence. Okay. And I was like, oh. This sounds like up here. How do I get out?

When I tell you I have no idea where I was, because this map took me... Oh, you just walked up a hike? I just walked up a hike and said, go here. Because sometimes I go to a trainer occasionally. And because I think I might be a glutton for punishment, or sadistic, whichever you want to call it, I walk there. And it's seven miles away from where I live. So I walk the seven miles.

I live Studio City. Okay. So I walk from Studio City. I had to walk into, so you have to walk.

Seven miles to, it's like West Hollywood is where he lives, just past West Hollywood.

And on the way back, it didn't give me the same directions. It took me a completely different route.

Yeah, it's all the way up the hills. And then you end up going down the Laurel Canyon Drive. It's horrible to walk on. Yeah, terrible. Because there is no sidewalk. No, it's dangerous. It's very dangerous. But I do it anyway, which don't do it.

No, and the thing is I'm used to it now. And the last, but for some reason the last time it took me a sensible route so I could go. Oh, good. But the sensible route is all uphill, so.

Well.

Not when it's never ending and you're on a razor scooter.

So I took the razor scooter the last time thinking I could help myself. I didn't. It was bad.

No, I moved from London in 2015 to New York for us to do a musical. And then I moved from... For The Color Purple? For The Color Purple.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They are nice.

They are nice. I never won them. That's all right. The prize is life.

Yeah. You are working on it. That's what we're discussing right now. That is what we're discussing.

You shouldn't. He was so wonderful. I loved working with him, man. He was really cool.

I did.

I did. It was tough, though.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I think we touched it.

I want to say it was 10 episodes, maybe.

We did a couple episodes about pregnancies. Because she was young, man. She was like a baby.

Yes.

Dead inside.

Shut down.

No. And she was sort of. We did that to the first husband. It was bad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, she's just closed down. It's just closed down.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that was the hardest thing to sort of like figure out how to sort of like navigate that. Because what I loved watching in her interviews is like over time, she sort of like, it was like watching her sort of like inch out and come out of her shell. That's when she starts making jokes when she's like... Oh, yeah. By the 60s and 70s, she started to make.

When she gets out from under that guy. Yeah, she starts making, she starts being herself in front of people. A little bit shadier. Yeah, yeah. A bit more jokey. Yeah. A bit more poke fun. Yeah. You know, saying the things that she actually wants to say. Yeah. Even though she, it's like a velvet, iron fist in a velvet glove.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I don't think people realize that the sound was a mess.

She didn't want it to come out, I don't think. She didn't? I don't think she did. It's kind of amazing. It's brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. And really interesting to watch her.

It's really interesting to watch the relationships that are happening in the room. Like when her father comes in.

And what that does to her. Yeah. Like it shuts her down.

And how she is with the pastor.

He was. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

It felt like he was sort of like the North Star. As long as he was around, she'd be all right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think she was maybe twice as many. Right, right.

Yeah.

And also, I would never have done it if I didn't think I could, like, do her justice and if I didn't.

care yeah you know yeah well yeah i really like put myself through it on that one yeah i could tell and how could you not yeah with the vulnerability of just wandering around with you know your clothes all ripped up yeah and your hair all out it was it was hard it was really hard even on set huh we would like it was we would we were filming in the like elements we were outside yeah all the time yeah and it was cold because we're shooting in virginia in the middle of like the winter yeah

So we, and I made a point with the director, with Casey, who I love, to just be like, whatever needs to be done to make this make sense, to make it happen, we do it. So if it means we have to shoot this in the pouring rain, In the cold and I have a ripped up dress on me, then that's what we're going to do. Yeah.

If it means I have to literally wade in the water, walk in the water up to my neck in a dress. Yeah. And then that's what I'm going to do. Don't put a wetsuit on me because I know it actually makes it colder and she wouldn't have had a wetsuit on. So that's what we're going to do.

So, you know, it was just and I, you know, because I don't have I think there was one stunt that I wasn't allowed to do. And that was jump off a bridge. Yeah. Jump off the bridge into raging waters. You're ready to go, though. But yeah, everything else, that was me.

Everything else is me.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was... slightly depressed by the end of it all.

I really didn't know how to let go of it. I didn't know how to let go of her.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's the thing. You say it's brain bending in the other direction. It is brain bending full stop. You have to bend your brain to make yourself believe that there is a cutoff on humanity. You actually have to do that first. You have to believe these people are more human. And these are less human. Which is crazy. Insane. It's insane. And horrible and has happened over and over again. Yeah.

In the history of humans. Yeah. And we're sort of watching it happen. Totally. Again. And it's horrifying.

Racism?

I live in England. They're the best at it.

You know, I think the UK has, you know, tried its best to rectify some of it. But because of where we are, some of it is rewinding itself. We just had all those horrible, horrible riots. And people... Calling for people to go home and just the worst side of humanity rearing its head. But I think the thing that gave me hope watching things like that happen is that parts of society that...

let's say 50, 60 years ago would have joined in.

Said absolutely not.

Absolutely not. That's not what we're not doing that. We don't do that here. That is not what we want.

We don't want it. Take it back. That's not what we're not. This is not, we're not going back to that.

So that I think I was really, that made me really proud to, to watch and, And, you know, we were fast becoming that way with our government as well. And that was a big rewind to – we've gone back to labor, which has work to do. They all have work to do, but you just want it to be manageable. Yes. We can actually still move forward.

Yes.

Yeah. One is quieter than the other, I think. One is better at it.

Exactly.

Yeah, she came to London, I think, when she was like 24 or something.

Nigeria.

I've been. The last time I went, I turned 13 on the plane back. Yeah.

I do, but a lot of my family have passed, and so my grandmother died just recently, and I have a couple of aunties who are still there, yeah.

What's Africa? But also, it's all different. I know, I know. The different places are so, so different. Yeah.

I don't know.

You know, I also wish I had a better sense of like the grander space that is Africa because I've only been to Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, and Egypt. And I really want to go to South Africa because I have a couple of friends who live there and I haven't been yet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ish. And there's just places I want to go. Like I want to. Both your parents from there? Both my parents are from Nigeria.

Oh, yeah. I mean, like things like food, the way we eat, like the food that we have, it's different from the food you get in London. But what's really interesting is because of the way London has sort of like developed, there's loads of places to get the things that we know of. That you need. That we need. Yeah. Or we want, that kind of thing. Like what?

So, like, there's a particular meal that I love. It's called okra soup. Oh, yeah. But it's interesting. Again, the way the diaspora sort of, like, tricks us into thinking that we're really, really different. But if I go to New Orleans and get gumbo, it's very similar to okra soup. It all comes from the same place. From the same place. It's like music.

It's like mofongo, which is Puerto Rican with plantain. And we have, you know, yam porridge, which we mix with. It's the same. It's exactly the same.

I've got one sister.

Her sort of speciality is sports sciences. So she really wants to do restorative health using sports, using fitness. And she wants to sort of bring it to people who don't.

Yeah.

Well, that's interesting. But preventing things like diabetes by making sure that people have the right fitness regime.

Yeah.

Yeah, my mom was a nurse, and then she became – well, you don't have this position here, but it's called a health visitor. Yeah. And a health visitor, it's like the bit between – Let's say kindergarten and birth. So that bit in between where your kids are growing, but they're too young to go to kindergarten and they're older than just born.

My mom would come to your house and she would check on you and your baby up to the age of three sometimes.

This is provided by the NHS, yeah.

And this is the thing. And it's one of the most incredible things because she gets to know mother and child. She has the right to help administer any medication.

Anyone who has a child.

Yeah, this service. Especially if the mother happens to have postpartum depression or if the mother is in danger before, if the mother might have any mental health issues, my mom will come in and make sure she'll check on them before a social worker comes in. So she will have a relationship with this family temporarily.

To make sure baby and mother or child and mother, especially mothers who have children before their newborn. Yeah. She's like that person.

She's very good at it.

Truly.

No, but I was good at the sciences. And so I felt like there was like a fluke that happened and I happened to like love performing as well.

I was going to go into psychology because I was very good at working with people and working through people's feelings. But music was always my love and I started studying music psychology. What is that? So essentially it's the study of how music affects the psyche based on where you live or your social standing or what it can do.

That was a major, yeah. I started studying at university, and then I think I didn't feel as stimulated as I wanted to be, and I knew something was amiss. I didn't necessarily need to go to the lectures to pass an essay.

Yeah, that kind of thing, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. How music evolves. Exactly. And that was what I was really interested in. You know, right down to like the semantics of like note pattern, chord structure, how that changes a person's mood.

You know, the major minor. Yeah. What difference that makes in the sound of music and how you receive it.

And that can lead you into... So you start talking about classical music and what that means within social standing and elitism and things like that.

Exactly.

Yeah. How does that affect the brain?

I know. You're probably...

Stop listening to that.

Whilst I was going to the university to do all of this, I did a youth program for acting just because I still wanted to do it. It was a theater around my area.

I always sang, yeah. I've been singing since I was five.

Yeah, in the Catholic school as well. What kind of Catholic? We went to a place called Lara Trait. It was a Roman Catholic school.

not as much now I think it's a little it's a little strict for me and it's slightly problematic in places so yeah I'll say you know so I I hold my faith to be true like I do believe in God yeah but I don't know if I don't know if the way I think I the way I believe is slightly different to way yeah the way a Catholic might believe

Yeah, it's heavy. Lots of guilt.

My mom wasn't Roman Catholic. My mom, she's Anglican, which I loved. When we went to her church, it was really like...

Yeah, it's so much more relaxed.

It was so much more relaxed, so much more fun.

It wasn't really any of that. The ceremonies, the services weren't as long. It was just so much more open. I loved that.

Yeah, I think we... Well, my mom never really mentioned hell ever in her life. Leaned into the hell? No.

And I think that's because she was Anglican. So they don't really talk about the hell too much. It's more a Roman Catholic thing.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Yeah, I always sang. And I think that's probably why I've held on to that sense of faith. Because I know there's a weird sense of connection and... It's hard to describe what it is when I sing to people.

Correct. It is.

It's a really open, you have to be open when you do it. Like literally, you're as open as you possibly can be to anyone who's around when you're singing. Because who knows? You don't know how they'll receive your voice. There are waves, sound waves literally coming out of you that you have to mold and shape.

So your body and your brain and your mind and your vocal cords are doing something that have to work in complete harmony And sometimes they might not work in harmony, so you don't know when that will happen. You kind of have to just go with... It doesn't matter how much practice or how good you are. There are days when it just won't work as well as you want it to work.

And you have to sort of be like, well...

Okay. If that happens, that happens.

Yeah. And then you add on to it. If you're singing something that means something to you that you know is really emotionally connected, you're giving that piece of yourself to other people and you hope that they'll accept it. Uh-huh. And you don't know if they will. You've got to detach from them. Yeah. But if they do, that's also really vulnerable.

Because you're like, oh, I don't know how you're connecting to it.

I can feel it.

And that sometimes is impossible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know. Isn't it crazy?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have to do two things. You have to do two things at the same time.

Yeah. It was insane. So right out of Color Purple, I did Widows with Steve McQueen. Then I did Bad Times. And then I did Harriet. So it was insane.

Yeah.