Colin Browen
Appearances
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
He was 20 years old and working on his bachelor of science in civil engineering. Anwar was described as a smart guy. He was also very passionate about his beliefs. People who knew him said that at this time in his life, he became very interested in politics and religion. And during his third year of college, he would actually travel to Afghanistan.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
where it was reported that he trained with the Mujahideen, a radical group of guerrilla soldiers who fight on behalf of Islam. When he came back to the US, Anwar decided to become an imam at a local mosque in Fort Collins, Colorado. An imam is essentially a leader at a mosque who helps lead prayers, and he would work here until he graduated from college in 1994.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
After his graduation, Anwar would move to San Diego to obtain his master's degree. And while there, he befriended two men he met at a San Diego mosque, named Khalid al-Midar and Nawaf al-Hamzi. And surprisingly, a few years later, these two men would later become two of the hijackers during the 9-11 terrorist attacks.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But in early 2001, before 9-11, Anwar would leave San Diego and move to Northern Virginia, where he became an imam at the Dar al-Hijrah Mosque, the same mosque that Nidal Hassan attended after his father's death.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Preparing for jihad is obligatory since jihad today is obligatory and the Sharia rule states that whatever is needed for an obligatory act becomes obligatory. Arms training is an essential part of preparation for jihad.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Allah says, "...and prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you don't know but Allah knows." The Messenger of Allah said regarding this verse, power is marksmanship, related by Muslim.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
The issue is so critical that if arms training is not possible in your country, then it is worth the time and money to travel to another country to train if you can. Soon enough, Anwar's blogs gained a lot of popularity all over the world. He even translated his blogs to English so he could have influence in the United States. And it seemed to be working.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, a lot of his followers were young, influential Muslims. Like we mentioned earlier, he worked with the Islamic youth in the United States, and he had a way of connecting with them. On his website, he posted blogs and videos of himself talking about his views.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
many experts have said that it was essentially a virtual bible for radical muslims he encouraged his followers to email him with any questions they might have and so he became a mentor to many people all over the world which is concerning considering some of his messages in one blog and more tells his followers don't consult with anybody in the killing of americans fighting the devil doesn't require consultation or prayers seeking divine guidance they are the party of the devil
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
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Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
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Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But let's get back to the story. Shortly after his mom's death, Nadal would move into a place of his own, and it was a lonely time for him. He lost both of his parents, he had put his medical career on hold, and he was searching for meaning. And it's here where he really started leaning on Anwar al-Awlaki. Now, he had only met him once at his mom's funeral, but Anwar had made a lasting impression.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Soon enough, Nadal was purchasing CDs of Anwar's recorded sermons, and he was really impressed by how powerful they were. He also loved Anwar's knowledge of the Qur'an. According to Nadal's family members, he was kind of obsessed with Anwar. He kept a book of his CDs in the trunk of his car, and he was always trying to hand out copies of them.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And then, just four months after his mother's death, 9-11 happened. And while all of America was completely heartbroken over this tragedy, Nadal Hassan felt very torn. Growing up, he had felt a lot of love for his country. This was the country that his parents came to, seeking the American dream. It was where they were able to thrive and make names for themselves in their community.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Nadal grew up loving America, so much so that he had even joined the military. But then, after 9-11, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan. And from there, he felt like the country he loved and served was now raging a war against Islam.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And I'm Colin Brown.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, on March 23rd, 2003, a tragedy would take place at an American military base in the Middle East that would leave Nadal Hassan feeling inspired. That morning, at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait, A military sergeant from Los Angeles named Hassan Akbar would sneak over to the power generators and turn them off so that the base went completely dark.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
He then threw four M67 hand grenades into the tents of soldiers while they slept. As the grenades exploded, many people tried to run for safety, but Akbar was waiting for them with an M4 rifle. Ultimately, he killed two officers and wounded 14. The incident was eye-opening for America. Sergeant Hassan Akbar was one of their own. and after the tragedy, they would make a disturbing discovery.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
As it turned out, he had been keeping a journal for 13 years, and it would later be used in his trial. In 1992, he wrote, I made a promise that if I am not able to achieve success because of some Caucasians, I will kill as many of them as possible. In 1993, he wrote, A Muslim should see himself as a Muslim only. His loyalty should be to Islam only.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
On February 4th, 2003, he wrote, I suppose they want to punk me or just humiliate me. Perhaps they feel that I will not do anything about that. They're right about that. I'm not going to do anything about it as long as I stay here. But as soon as I am in Iraq, I'm going to try and kill as many of them as possible.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
A few weeks before the attack, Akbar wrote, I may not have killed any Muslims, but being in the army is the same thing. I may have to make a choice very soon on who to kill. When the news spread about this story, Americans were horrified, but not Nadal. He was inspired, and he wouldn't stop talking about it with anyone who would listen.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
One of his supervisors even stated that afterwards, Nadal really wanted to study more stories of Muslim soldiers who had committed fratricide, which is the killing of one's own forces in war.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Back at his residency, Nadal continued to isolate himself from his colleagues. And in the meantime, he fell even deeper into his religious studies. During Christmas one year, his colleagues wanted to take a group picture together, but Nadal refused because he didn't want to take a picture with a female.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And despite his supervisor's orders, he continued talking to people about Islam and his views about the war in the Middle East. At some point, his advisors even pulled him aside and said that they didn't think the military was the right fit for him. They also offered to help him resign if that was something he still wanted.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Nadal told them that he would leave, but only if he could be honorably discharged. However, they couldn't make that work. So from here, Nadal decided to stay. But nothing would change. He continued to be a problem. In one argument he had with a classmate, Nadal mentioned Sharia law, which are the religious laws of Islam. And he said that he believed Sharia law was superior to the constitution.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
so the classmate then brought up a portion of the quran that talks about martyrs in that portion it says that people who die for islam will be rewarded with a bunch of heavenly maidens or virgins when they get to heaven so this classmate asked him his opinion on this saying so you think suicide bombers are rewarded with virgins in heaven to which nadal responded yes
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
During one presentation where residents had to do a project on issues related to mental health, Nadal presented a 50-page PowerPoint about the persecution of Muslims by wars in the Middle East. One of his slides stated, And his final slide stated, Fighting to establish an Islamic state to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Muslim soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting, killing believers unjustly.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Thank you.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
During the first year of the program, Nadal presented a project titled, Religious Conflicts Among US Muslim Soldiers. In part, it read, do you agree or disagree? Groups in the Muslim world that attack American civilians are defending Islam against America's efforts to divide and dominate the Islamic world. It also read, thinking now about US actions around the world,
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Please tell me if you think the following are or are not US goals. Please say if you think it is. To weaken and divide the Islamic world. Now during this time, Nadal continued to attend the Silver Spring Mosque in Kensington, Maryland. He would go to the mosque nearly every day, dressed in his army fatigues.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Imam Fazool Khan, who was the mosque's leader, would later say that Nadal prayed five times a day and was always reading the Quran. But he was also a very isolated individual. Members would try to invite him to different programs and events at the mosque, but he never attended. It seemed as if he preferred to keep to himself.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But then one day, Imam Fazool Khan said that Nidal approached him and asked for his help in finding a traditional Muslim wife. But he was adamant on the exact type of woman he wanted. She had to pray five times a day, she had to wear a hijab, and she had to be a strict follower of Islam.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Today, if you were to look up Fort Hood, you'd likely find a number of different articles talking about all of the tragedies that have taken place there. But during your search, you'd probably find that it isn't even called Fort Hood anymore.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Imam Khan would say, "'He was interested in getting married, and I offer a matrimonial service here at the mosque. That's where I got to know him a little better. He would come here and look at the files for a wife.' He attended our seminars once or twice, and there was really no one that was pious enough for him.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Through his website, Aulaki encouraged American Muslims to carry out violent jihad against anyone who is not Muslim. On December 17, 2008, Nadal wrote to Aulaki and expressed his concern about Muslim Americans being forced to fight in wars against other Muslims. He also asked if he thought Hassan Akbar, who had attacked Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait in 2003, was a martyr for the Islamic faith.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Established in 1942, the base was originally a training location for tank destroyers during World War II, and it was named after Confederate General John Bell Hood. But in 2023, the US military decided to change its name. Hoping to correct racial injustice in the wake of the 2020 Civil Rights Movement, they renamed the base to Fort Cavazos.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, since Anwar al-Awlaki had ties to Al-Qaeda, the government had been keeping an eye on him, and they actually intercepted Nadal's email. In fact, the San Diego FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force marked the email as a product of interest due to it referring the American military. However, for an unknown reason, The email fell through the cracks.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
No one really looked into it, and they didn't see that the sender of the email was an active member of the US Army. To me, this is highly suspicious and a massive fail by American intelligence services. I have my own thoughts on these issues, but I'll keep them to myself. Regardless, at this point, Nadal was then free to keep communicating with Anwar al-Awlaki.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
On January 1st, 2009, Nadal wrote a second email to al-Awlaki that stated, Is it better for Muslims to say I am just Muslim and not Sunni or Shia, which seems to divide us?
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, this time, the FBI marked that the email was not a product of interest, and a note was placed in the file where the task force agent wrote, Though Name Redacted's research indicates that Nadal is not a military member, I still think this would make a good intelligence information report. There might be other information out there that links him to the military in some way.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Did you check to see what other Hassans are in the military? If not, I can have our guy run just the last name.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
On January 16, 2009, he wrote his third email that stated, Is it permissible to fire unguided rockets into Israel? There is no question that firing unguided rockets into Israel has the potential of indiscriminately killing civilians. The real question is why Hamas would do such a thing. Can one envision a scenario where it would be acceptable to do so?
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Well, what if Israel was and continues to indiscriminately kill and hurt civilians and commit other atrocities in the Gaza territory to serve their expansionary ambitions? One can then begin to at least understand why Palestinians would do such a thing. In fact, it is probably one of the things that they can do in an attempt to avenge themselves and repulse the enemy.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Two days later, another email was sent, and this time Nadal expressed his support of Hamas. By February 16th, Nadal had not received any correspondence back from Al-Laki, but he fired off another email that read, Please have alternative to donate to your website. For example, checks slash money orders may be sent to redacted. This can assure privacy for some who are concerned.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
So, instead of it being named after a Confederate general, it's now named after the Army's first Hispanic four-star general, Richard Edward Cavazos. Now, there were mixed opinions about this name change.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But to keep the conversation going, Nadal asked al-Awlaki how he could donate money and for his advice in finding a Muslim wife. And once again, the FBI intercepted this email, but marked it as not a product of interest. On February 22nd, 2009, al-Awlaki sent his second and final email to Nadal. He wrote, Believe it or not, I kind of felt that the contest would end up running into red tape.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
People in that part of the world are becoming very timid, and it doesn't look it's getting any better. Thanks for the offer to help. Well, it is needed, but I just don't know how to do it. There are poor people, orphans, widows, dawah projects, and the list goes on.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
So if you have any ideas on how to get help across and in accordance to law in a climate that is strict to start with, please let me know. Tell me more about yourself. I will keep an eye for a sister. Nadal was ecstatic that Aulaki had responded, and a few hours after he received the email, he wrote back, I will keep trying. If Allah wants something to occur, no one can stop it.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But there were a lot of people who were happy to leave the name Fort Hood in the past, not only because of who the base was named after, but for years, anytime someone mentioned Fort Hood, all that could come to mind was darkness, death, and tragedy. So maybe a new name could now give them a fresh start.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
My job is to put in the effort and have patience. Your various works force the controversial issues to surface and be addressed. If there's going to be a resolution between Islam and the West, the difficult issues need to be brought up. I think this is important. It may take many generations before people realize the gift that Allah has given them through your work.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But, I see the value now and don't have to wait for your death. My goal is Jannat for Daws and I praise and thank Allah for giving me the ability to strive, to see the truth.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
to beg for his forgiveness and ask for his guidance if people truly understood the peace they could have by really believing that allah is in control and that he is just testing to see who is the best among us it would be a lot easier to see through shaitan's promises of poverty and destruction I want to be with those who are the best.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Imam, if you have any specific projects that you feel are important to get on their feet, let me know. I will read up on them and inshallah, I will praise Allah. In regards to a sister for marriage, my name is Nidal Hasan. If you google CSTS and Nidal Hasan, you will see a picture of me. I currently reside in Silver Spring, Maryland. I was born and raised in the US.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Both of my parents are from Palestine and have both passed away. I joined the US military at age 17 as an infantryman. I subsequently received a BS in biochemistry degree in medicine with a residency training in psychiatry. and I'm just finishing up my fellowship training in disaster and preventive psychiatry.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
During my working career, I've been a busboy, a dishwasher, a cook, a cashier, a lab technician, a researcher, and entrepreneur. Allah lifted the veil from my eyes about eight to nine years ago, and I have been striving for Jannah for now ever since. I hope, inshallah, my endeavor will be realized.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
If you know someone you feel that would be compatible and complement my endeavors to please Allah, please let me know.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But back in 2009, before all the tragedy that stained its reputation, the town of Killeen was proud of Fort Hood. Covering roughly 340 square miles, it was one of the biggest military bases in the world. So since its opening in 1942, Killeen has been a military town through and through. Many people who live there have a connection to Fort Hood.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, interestingly, after his promotion, in May of 2009, the FBI fined Nadal's online personal blog, where he wrote, If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard, that would be considered a strategic victory. They also saw that the person who posted it was named Nadal Hassan, but they couldn't confirm that he was the one who had posted it.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
So, once again, nothing ever came from it. Nadal was free to continue serving in the military. And on July 15th, 2009, He finally arrived in Fort Hood, Texas. Once there, Nadal moved into a rundown apartment that he found in the classified ads, called Casa del Norte. He paid his landlord $2,050 up front, covering his entire six-month lease.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
He also told the landlord that no one was ever allowed inside his apartment if he wasn't home. But from there, he settled into apartment number nine, a one-bedroom, 650-square-foot living space. Interestingly, he also didn't furnish his apartment. There was no couch, no dining room table, and no real bed.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
In fact, Nadal opted to sleep on an air mattress, and he ate his meals at a small fold-out card table that he had covered with a white tablecloth. In the middle of the room, he had a prayer rug and a small stack of shelves in the corner where he kept a few books. Nadal was living out a minimalistic life at his new apartment in Killeen, Texas.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Now, the apartment was off base, so he had to walk to work every day, which isn't really ideal. And strangely enough, Nidal was making a good amount of money at the time, so he definitely could have afforded a nicer apartment. But at that time, he was donating about $20,000 to $30,000 a year to various Islamic charities.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And it's been reported that these charities were actually funding terrorist organizations. So, a large chunk of Nidal's salary was going towards that.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And for decades, the base not only helped their local economy, but the economy in Texas as a whole. Texas Comptroller Glenn Hegar stated, The tradition of military service is long in our great state, and our respect for those who serve is enduring.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
For the next few weeks, Nadal would go back to Guns Galore and purchase more boxes of ammunition, additional magazines, and a red and green laser sight for $275 a piece. Nadal specifically liked the fact that the FN-57's expandable magazines could hold 20 to 30 bullets. When asked why he wanted the expandable magazine, Nadal simply said that he hated wasting his time reloading at the gun range.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
These installations are critical to both our national security and to the Texas economy, generating an overall economic output of more than $150 billion. These installations are also vibrant and dynamic partners in the community. supporting not just business and industry, but also schools, charities, youth sports, and cultural events.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Next, Nadal purchased a membership at a local gun range called Stan's Shooting Range. A few times per week, Nadal would practice at the gun range, purchasing a few silhouette targets at a time and aiming at the torsos and heads. One of the co-owners, John Choates, noticed the accuracy of Nadal's headshots and would later say that he hit between 80-90% of the shots.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Surprisingly, Nadal's neighbors would say that although he was quiet and introverted, when he did speak, he was pleasant and friendly. One even went as far as to say that Nadal would have given anyone the shirt off of his back. Neighbor Willie Bell said, The first day he moved in, he offered to give me a ride to work. He'd give you the shoes and shirt and pants off him if you needed it.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Nicest guy you'd want to meet. But no one knew what was brewing beneath the surface. On the outside, Nidal Hasan was a very quiet and introverted man, who kept to himself. But on the inside, he was an angry, radicalized Muslim who had been inspired by extremist Anwar al-Awlaki. During his time in Killeen, Nidal was trying to find his place in the Islamic community.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
But even the members at the mosque found him to be strange. In September 2009, Nadal got lucky and befriended an 18-year-old Muslim convert named Dwayne Reasoner. Dwayne was known to frequent jihadist websites on the internet under the username Ukulpukul. And for a few months, Nadal would serve as a type of mentor to Dwayne.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Some would even consider them to be friends, which was pretty rare for Nadal. The two often ate dinner together at the Golden Corral restaurant.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
The US military and the men and women who serve are a key part of what makes Texas the greatest state in the nation.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Good morning, my fellow colleagues. I had an issue that came up and I thought the answer to my question would be helpful to all of us writing MEBs. During a number of encounters, I've come across situations where the soldier expresses guilt slash anger about events that can be quite disturbing. I happened to be at Mr. Manuel's legal consultant office with Dr. Shahan for another case.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Since I was there, I asked about one of our soldiers complaining slash having guilt about our troops pouring 50 gallons of fuel in the Iraqi water supply as revenge for some adverse events that occurred. He stated that that was a war crime, and if I gave that information to him, he would have to report it. He subsequently gave me numbers to contact to pursue this. I called the DSJA, Lt. Col.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Febba, who couldn't give me an answer at that particular time. However, his eventual response will be beneficial to all of us writing MEBs or encountering similar situations. Nadal Hassan, all praises and thanks go to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of all the worlds.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events,
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice, no topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories representing you people with facts telling you the story walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with murder in america and then letting the listener decide what they think anyways you should definitely give it a listen it's called the conspiracy files the links are in the description of this show and you can find it on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and now let's get back to our story
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Major Hassan has been a significant addition to the psychiatric staff. He has taken the mission of MED and additional patient care. He has enthusiastically jumped into his role as provider and administrative physician. He is learning his new administrative duties and will be a significant contributor in the future.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
He has unlimited potential for advancement and leadership and should be groomed for those roles. Promote now and select for intermediate level education and residence. Below the statement it read, soldier is unavailable for signature.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
It's around this time when Nadal went to a strip club called Stars, and while there he struck up a conversation with his favorite stripper named Paige. He talked with her about his deployment and how unhappy he was about it. Then, during a private nude dance with her in the VIP room, he started asking Paige a bunch of questions like, Why did she become a stripper? Did she have any children?
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Did she enjoy the lifestyle? Paige would later say that Nadal seemed to prefer blonde women, and, He wasn't too loud like some of our customers, or sleazy. He didn't try to take us home, and he was respectful. It was also around this time when Nadal sent a cryptic email to his brother.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
In it, he gave him specific instructions on what to do with his money and property in the event he was killed in the Middle East. The email read, In the event that I am incapacitated or not able to use my money slash property, i.e. captured by the enemy, please donate my money slash property to the poor as soon as possible. Use your judgment, but you know I'm trying to maximize my rewards.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
If I happen to die, obviously split it according to the Islamic inheritance law and give the maximum allowable amount to a charity, Sadaka, Jiraya, etc. I think it's one third of my wealth. I'm not aware of any psychiatrists that have died in Iraq slash Afghanistan by enemy fire. However, it's always good to be prepared.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Later that evening, Nadal prayed at the mosque and then asked his friend, Duane Reasoner, to accompany him to a fish dinner at the Golden Corral. Like we mentioned, the two had grown close over the last few months and had talked a lot about their religion. However, during this dinner, Nadal started lecturing Duane, telling him to never join the military. Then, once dinner was over,
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Both Nadal and Duane went back to apartment 9. The manager of Nadal's apartment, Alice Thompson, would later say that when she saw that Nadal had a visitor, she was surprised. Nadal never had any guests come to visit him. Early the next morning, on November 4th, Nadal woke up early and started giving his neighbors all of his belongings.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
One neighbor named Patricia Villa was given bags of frozen vegetables, boxes of frozen veggie burgers, clothes for her husband, and of course, a copy of the Quran. Nadal was also seen that morning throwing bags of stuff into the apartment's dumpster. Now, Nadal didn't have a lot of stuff to begin with, but he was fully clearing out his apartment.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
When his neighbors asked why he was getting rid of everything, He told him that he was leaving for Afghanistan soon, and he wouldn't need it. Later that night, he even used a paper shredder to destroy all of his important documents, including his medical school diploma.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Nidal Malik Hassan was born on September 8, 1970, in Arlington, Virginia. His parents Malik and Nora were Palestinian immigrants who came to America in the 1960s. Nidal was the couple's first child, and a year after his birth, they welcomed a son named Anas Malik.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Once on the road, Nadal made his way to the Darnall Medical Center to pick up his deployment paperwork. But as we already know, he had no plans on actually going to the Middle East. It's suspected that the real reason he went by the office that day was to see Lieutenant Colonel Ben Phillips, the one who made the decision to send him to Afghanistan.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
However, to Nadal's dismay, Lieutenant Colonel Ben Phillips wasn't there. he had taken a vacation and wouldn't be back until the following week. Nadal's colleagues said that when he heard this information, he was furious, demanding to know where Lieutenant Colonel Ben Phillips was located. And from here, he quickly marched over to his office, sat down at his desk, and left Phillips a voicemail.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And while he waited for a call back, Nadal decided to browse the internet for jihadist articles. It seems as if he was looking for an inspiration.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Together, the family of four would move into a small apartment on Lancelot Lane in Roanoke, and their goal was to raise their children with a typical American upbringing. They wanted to fit in here. So, every year, they celebrated Christmas, went to birthday parties, and they tried their hardest not to speak Arabic to each other.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Hey everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. We are really going to be exploring Fort Hood in depth over the next month or so. We are doing episodes on another infamous true crime case that occurred there and a string of bizarre accidents and suicides and deaths that can be attributed to the fort.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
There's definitely something going on there. I have my theories, but I'm going to hold those. Close to my chest for now. If you like the show and you want to hear part two, go sign up for our Patreon because part two is going to be posted immediately. If you haven't joined us on Patreon yet, I highly suggest that you do if you want to help support the show.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
On Patreon, we have every single episode of the show early and ad free. So you get early access to the episodes with none of those pesky ads that people don't seem to like. And in addition, there's tons of bonus content on there. Full-length episodes of Murder in America featuring both Courtney and I, exactly like the ones that are on our main feed.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
So if you sign up today, you can instantly get access to the over 100 bonus episodes that are there on the Patreon. Thank you to everybody that's joined us on there. We really appreciate the support. And as always, don't forget to leave us a five-star review wherever you're listening to this podcast. And follow us on Instagram at Murder in America.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
It seemed as if they truly wanted to leave their Palestinian roots behind so they could be accepted here. Eventually, after the birth of their third son, Yad, their family even adopted American names. Nadal sometimes went by Michael, and Yad went by Eddie. Both parents, Malik and Nora, came to the United States to pursue the American dream.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Anyways, y'all, Courtney and I love everybody so much. And we're so thankful to have everybody out there listening to the show. That's it for this week. And I'll catch you on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
And in 1987, they opened up the Capital Restaurant in the Roanoke City Market. An article in the Roanoke Times stated that the restaurant was a dive beer hall and diner with a bad reputation and a lot of down-and-out regulars.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
a place where patrons enjoyed greasy blue plate specials and sipped on old milwaukees while a jukebox played motown and their hard work paid off eventually through the success of their first restaurant they were able to open more businesses in town including hot dog queen parish grocery and community grocery
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Then in 1995, they even opened their first upscale eatery called Mount Olive Bar and Grill. After 10 years of hard work, Malik and Nora were well-respected throughout the community. They worked nearly every day, paving the way for their family, and it didn't go unnoticed. People in the community described the Hassans as friendly, honest, and hardworking.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Nora was known for keeping things in order, even when customers had a little too much to drink. And if someone couldn't afford to pay, she would never let them leave with an empty stomach.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
After making this decision, Nadal actually moved back home with his parents in Roanoke and enrolled at the Virginia Western Community College. In 1992, he graduated summa cum laude with an associate's degree in science. And from here, he decided to continue his schooling at Virginia Tech.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
which is, ironically, the site of the 2007 mass shooting that we've previously discussed here on this podcast. But back in 1992, Nidal Hasan was a new student at Virginia Tech majoring in biochemistry with a minor in chemistry and biology. And once again, he proved to be a hardworking student.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
That semester, he even approached his biochemistry professor, Dr. George E. Bunce, and asked if he could work with him in his research lab for extra credit. Ultimately, his professor agreed, but he wasn't the easiest person to work with.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
In the book titled Death on Base, The Fort Hood Massacre, Dr. Bunce remembered Nadal's time at the lab and stated, Usually students begin undergraduate research as juniors.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
but students in good standing academically were allowed to begin as freshmen or sophomores i remember him being quiet and respectful in his initial meeting with me i allowed him to work on a research project that was part of a larger program after a month or so of work his lab instructor catherine simon complained to me that nadal was not using good technique and as a consequence many of the cultures were becoming contaminated with bacteria worse she said that he was not cooperative in taking her advice on how to improve
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
I called Nadal into my office and told him that he would have to accept Ms. Simon's directions or we would have to remove him from the project. As I recall, he grudgingly agreed to finish the semester. He chose not to re-enroll in this activity with me for the next semester. Nadal was from a Palestinian refugee family.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
I attributed his attitude as a part of his cultural reluctance to taking direction from a female. And his lab instructor, Catherine Simon, agreed. She said that although Nadal was interested in the work at the lab, he was reluctant to take directions from her. After she spoke with Dr. Bunce about Nadal's attitude, she stated, Nadal came back to the lab and he was very confrontational with me.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
It was very much that he would not take responsibility.
Murder In America
EP. 187: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 1)
Anwar al-Awlaki was born on April 21, 1971, in Las Cruces, New Mexico, so he was a United States citizen. But when Anwar was just 7 years old, he and his family would move to Yemen, and they would stay there for the next 13 years. However, in 1991, Anwar decided to come back to the United States, where he enrolled at Colorado State University.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Kenneth McDuff was facing a misdemeanor charge for threatening the young boy, but because he was out on parole at the time, this meant he could go back to prison, which is what everyone was hoping for.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
The Falls County District Attorney Tom Seehan even wrote a letter to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice that stated, "...the above, Kenneth McDuff, is the most extraordinarily violent criminal to ever set foot in Falls County." Now, once again, during Kenneth's hearing for this offense, he testified on his own behalf.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And during his testimony, he started talking about his hatred of black people. I guess he thought it would somehow help his case. But in yet another string of luck, Kenneth would be let off the hook again. Unfortunately, the boy that he threatened didn't show up to the hearing. According to the book titled Bad Boy, the young boy's mother feared for her family's safety.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And without his testimony, the charges against Kenneth were dropped.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And it seemed as if Kenneth knew, this time around, that he needed to get his act together. Because in the months after his release, he decided to enroll in classes at the Texas State Technical College in Waco. The classes were even paid for through his rehabilitation program. But as you're about to see, Kenneth McDuff was anything but rehabilitated.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
While taking these classes, he often frequented Faulkner Street, which is an area in town where drug dealers and sex workers used to hang out. While there, Kenneth would usually buy some crack and then leave with the sex worker, taking her back to his dormitory on campus.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But according to people that knew him, his crack made him incredibly violent, and he often took that violence out on the sex workers. Soon enough, Kenneth began making a name for himself on Faulkner Street. Anytime the sex workers saw him driving up, the girls dreaded it. One girl, who went by the name Ducky, said that sex with Kenneth was a miserable experience.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
She remembered her three-hour sex ordeals with him in which he would penetrate, quote, every hole in her body, end quote. And he apparently liked to humiliate women. He got off on degrading them. He would also force them to perform sexual acts that they weren't comfortable doing. To him, it didn't matter if they didn't like it. He was paying them.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, there's no telling the actual number of women that Kenneth murdered. When a sex worker was reported missing back then, the police department wasn't necessarily scrambling to solve the case. But the girls on Faulkner Street were very wary of Kenneth McDuff. He seemed to always be one of the last people to see these girls before they suddenly disappeared.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And the police department wasn't doing anything about it. Now, because Kenneth was on parole, he had to do regular check-ins with his parole officer. And to them, he seemed to be doing pretty well. In fact, during his first semester at school, he was on the Dean's list with a 3.7 GPA. On the outside, Kenneth was a student who was trying to better himself.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But in reality, when darkness fell, he was a drug-crazed, sadistic predator. Now, while Kenneth was attending this school, he was living by himself in the dorm on campus. And at the time, he was 46 years old. People at the school that knew him said that he often kept to himself. He didn't have any friends.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
During the spring semester of 1992, he took a course on human relations, and his professor instructed him to list his four best personal characteristics. He chose reliable, respectful, perceptive, and open-minded. Another exercise asked students to choose five traits that described how they felt about themselves. Kenneth chose aware, considerate, loyal, productive, and trusting.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Negative traits he listed were not good at meeting people and too trusting sometimes. During two assignments in class, they had to take a test on sexual harassment and drugs. And it was reported that Kenneth scored perfectly on both.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
also it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program so if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here share us on your instagram story shout us out on x post one of our shows on your facebook and let the world your friends your family know that you're listening to murder in america it seriously helps us so much helps us grow the show we couldn't do this without all of you listening at home seriously thank y'all but let's get back to the story
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, in September of 1991, Kenneth had spent the night getting drunk and decided to get behind the wheel. He was driving drunk around Temple, Texas, when a police cruiser came up behind him and pulled him over. And at that moment, Kenneth began to panic. He knew he was on parole, so this could have very well sent him back to prison. And the officer ended up arresting him for DWI.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And he would later plead guilty. But as we know, Kenneth had a way of getting around the law. At the time, the prisons in Texas were still overcrowded, so the Texas Department of Criminal Justice didn't think it was necessary to send him back. Instead, he was once again punished with a slap on the wrist.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Kenneth was given a fine, and he had an additional 20 months added on to his probation, which would prove to be a deadly mistake.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Following the murders of Luis Sullivan, Robert Brand, and Marcus Dunham, the state of Texas had scheduled Kenneth McDuff's execution for October 8, 1968. And as you can imagine, for the victim's family members, they were relieved to finally have justice.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, one would think that Kenneth would lay low after this, especially since he had just outrun the police. But that wasn't the case. In fact, just five days after murdering Brenda Thompson, he was back on Faulkner Street, looking for another sex worker. This time, he would pick up 21-year-old Regina Deanne Moore. Like Brenda, Gina was petite and dependent on drugs.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
She had three children, but due to her lifestyle, they were all adopted by relatives. In 1991, Gina was in a rough place. Her addiction had gotten so bad that she was locally known to put herself in risky situations. So on October 15th, when Kenneth pulled up his red pickup truck and ordered her to get in, she didn't think twice.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
It was around 11pm, as Kenneth drove Gina down a remote road on Highway 6. Near the Tehuacana Creek, Kenneth was able to park his truck far enough down an embankment for privacy. And from there, the two smoked crack together. Now, like we mentioned, crack was known to make Kenneth violent. And after the two smoked, he decided that he was going to kill her.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, nothing would ever bring Louise, Robert, and Marcus back, but at least they knew that the monster who killed them would get the justice he deserved. Or so they thought. As you may know, the death penalty is not an easy process. And although the state of Texas executes far more people than any other state, there are still a lot of hurdles to jump through when it comes to appeals.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
He would later say that it was just for the hell of it. But once that decision was made, Kenneth tied up Gina's arms and legs. And like Brenda, he tortured her out there for hours. And like Brenda, her body wouldn't be discovered for years to come.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, interestingly, Gina's cousin was also a sex worker on Faulkner Street, and she said that she knew exactly who Kenneth McDuff was.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, once again, Barbara pleaded with the police to help in her daughter's disappearance. She even mentioned that it wasn't just her daughter missing, but Brenda Thompson too. However, they weren't very concerned. To the police, Brenda and Gina got into cars with strangers every single night.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
They were also known to go on drug benders from time to time, so I guess they just assumed the girls would show back up. But unbeknownst to them, one of those missing girls was the same girl they saw tied up in that red pickup that sped away from the DUI checkpoint. Now, how they missed that connection, we still don't know. But once again, Kenneth McDuff was off the hook. For now.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And Kenneth McDuff was appealing his verdict almost immediately after his trial. Because of this, his 1968 execution was postponed to 1969. Then it was postponed again to 1970. And after a few years in prison, he was pretty confident that he would never get put to death. After all, while he was there, none of the death row inmates he was with were executed.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
After this, Kenneth decided to get rid of his red pickup truck. After running from the police and nearly getting caught, he was scared. So one weekend, he drove back to Rosebud, Texas and returned the vehicle to his parents. They didn't ask him about the cracked windshield. Instead, they simply gave him another car, a 1985 tan Ford Thunderbird.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
From here, Kenneth was a lot less on edge, and he spent that entire December hanging out casually with his friends. One friend in particular said that he and Kenneth had crossed paths and immediately he could tell that he was full of himself. He was always bragging to anyone who would listen. And of course, Kenneth told this person all about how he loved to rob and kill people.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
They would later say that Kenneth was the scariest, craziest person they had ever met. During one of their outings, Kenneth spotted two young girls on roller skates and he told his friend he wanted to get them. His friend told him that he was crazy and that he didn't do that sort of a thing. But Kenneth didn't care.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
He started following the young girls down the street, making vulgar comments about how hot they were. The friend that was with him said he was disgusted. And after that, he never spoke to Kenneth again. But there was one friend of Kenneth's during this time. that wasn't turned off by his vile behavior. And that was Hank Worley.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Kenneth had met Hank in the summer of 1991, months before he went on a frenzy murdering sex workers. But like his first accomplice, Roy Dell Green, Hank Worley was inspired by Kenneth. He would listen to him tell stories about raping women and beating people within an inch of their life, and he was fascinated. Kenneth and Hank would often drink beer together at dive bars around Belton and Temple.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Afterwards, the two would drive around town and Kenneth would point out all the good spots where they could hide a body. Now, like all the others before, Hank would later claim that he didn't think Kenneth was being serious. But soon enough, the two would be hiding a body together.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Once the temperatures started rising this spring, Courtney and I both realized that we were back in the same worn-out rotation. We were wearing the same tanks, the same shorts, the same pants, the same everything. So, we both decided to switch things up, and we gave our daily uniforms an upgrade with quints.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make us feel more put together without even trying. Honestly, we've talked about this company before, but Quince makes incredibly comfortable, very well-fitted clothing that Courtney and I have come to love.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Even with the simple things like t-shirts, I love wearing my t-shirts that I've gotten from Quince every day, whether I'm sitting at home editing videos and podcasts, or Courtney and I are running around town getting some things done. Through Quince, you can get 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30, luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. But the best part?
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Everything with Quince is priced 50-80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So treat your closet to a little summer glow up with Quince.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Go to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash America to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash America. And now let's get back to our story. Born in Louisiana in April 1963, Colleen was described as a tomboy who always wanted to leave her hometown of Villa Platt. And finally, that opportunity presented itself.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Colleen was dating a man named Jamil at the time, and he had just been offered a job at the Marriott Hotel in Austin, Texas. So Colleen decided to join him. She was described by her neighbors in Austin as a sweet woman who mostly kept to herself. She was close with her family and didn't do drugs and rarely drank alcohol. Colleen was determined to make something of her life.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
She studied hard to become an accountant and dreamed of one day having a husband and children. By the age of 28, Colleen was independent and working at the Lower Colorado River Authority as a supervising accountant. She lived alone in an apartment off West Lake Drive and had a cat named Manu. She joined the Army Reserves for a short time, earning the rank of Specialist E-4.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
However, she realized that that wasn't the life she wanted. so she processed out by the fall of 1991. But she wanted to stay in shape, so she became an avid jogger and golfer and regularly began working out at the Future Firm Fitness Center. Colleen was really enjoying her time in Austin. She hadn't been there very long, but the city was everything she had hoped for.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
That is, until the yogurt shop murders. When her family heard the horrible news, they called Colleen and warned her to be safe, especially since the killer was still on the loose. And Colleen told them that she would, but little did she know, she was about to meet a similar fate.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Earlier that night, Colleen got into her Mazda and drove to downtown Austin to deposit a $200 check that her father had given her for Christmas. Then, from there, at around 9pm, she left to go to Whole Foods. At the store, she purchased a gallon of milk and a bottle of vitamins. From there, she planned to go back home, but at the last minute, she decided to make one last stop and go to a car wash.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
The self-serve car wash was located on West 5th Street, and Colleen pulled into one of the stalls. But unbeknownst to her, a convicted killer just so happened to be driving by at that very moment.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Once the two were finished, they got back into the car and started driving down the road once more. This time, they were headed towards the town of Belton, Texas. Off a secluded road with overgrown grass and brush, Kenneth stopped and pulled Colleen out of the car. He then threw her on the hood of his Thunderbird and raped her again.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Afterwards, Kenneth began beating Colleen, punching her in the face as hard as he could. Hank would later say that at some point during the beating, he heard something snap. He then watched as Colleen fell backwards and her head bounced off the ground. From there, everything went quiet. Colleen Reed, was dead. Hank would later say that at this point, he wanted to go back home.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
So Kenneth put Colleen's body in the trunk and they drove together back to Hank's sister's house. When Hank got out of the car to leave, Kenneth rolled down the window and asked, Do you have a shovel I could borrow? But Hank told him no. And from there, Kenneth left to dispose of her body.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Less than a week after meeting with his parole officer, one of the residents living at Kenneth's dorm on campus noticed a skinny African-American woman knocking on Kenneth's door. Her name was Valencia K. Joshua, who went by the name Kay. Kay was a known sex worker and drug addict, and Kenneth was one of her customers. He was also the last person to see her alive.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Sadly, during one of their rendezvous, Kenneth would murder Kay. He was also getting incredibly reckless. Because instead of disposing her body deep in the wilderness like he usually did, Kenneth actually buried her in a shallow grave near his college. But her body wouldn't be found right away. Now, like the other sex workers he killed, people suspected that he was responsible.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
after all he was the last one to see k alive and one would think that investigators would immediately look into kenneth considering he was the last person seen with the other two missing sex workers brenda and gina but of course they didn't and over the next few days he continued living his reckless life like he always did he got drunk started fights and went on numerous drug binges
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But despite this, at the end of February, he learned that he had received enough college credits to graduate. And after graduation, he had planned on working at this business called Victoria Machine Works. However, Kenneth got a call from them letting him know that they wouldn't be hiring him, which made him furious.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
He was also out around $800 after his Thunderbird broke down the week before, so he quickly found himself with no money, no job, and no plans for the future. He had also been coming down off a drug bender, and he needed something to make him feel better. A quick fix, if you will. So once again, Kenneth set off to find another woman.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Like all of his previous victims, Melissa Ann Northup was a petite woman. She was less than 5 feet tall and weighed only 100 pounds. She was someone that Kenneth knew he could overpower. She had two children, a boy and a girl from a previous marriage, and she did everything she could to support them.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Although she didn't have a high school diploma, Melissa was a hard worker, but was forced to take menial jobs. While she was working as a cashier at Whataburger, she met another employee there named Aaron. The two dated for a short time, and they eventually got married on June 17, 1990. Together, the couple decided to leave Whataburger and looked into careers at convenience stores.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Melissa chose Circle K, and Aaron went to work for QuickPak. Aaron wanted to get into management, and by the summer of 1991, Melissa had joined him at the convenience store. She was hired at 4.50 an hour, and her duties consisted of running the cash register and doing janitorial tasks around the store.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
According to author Gary LaVerne, Melissa wasn't crazy about her job and the lack of security in the store. Working the night shift from 11pm until 7am meant that she could possibly be exposed to robberies. But she believed that she wouldn't be able to find another decent job, so she sucked it up, at least for the time being.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Kenneth threw Melissa's body into a flooded gravel pit and then made his way back to her vehicle. Later that morning, a South Carolina couple named Richard and Ollie Bannister were returning to the New Road Inn after a late night out. This happened to be that hotel that was near the Quick Pack, where Kenneth had left his Thunderbird.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
That very same year, a Texas inmate named David Ruiz, who had been given a 25-year sentence for armed robbery, issued a handwritten lawsuit against the Texas Department of Corrections. David complained that the prisons were overcrowded, inmates didn't receive quality medical care, and they were constantly being brutalized by block tenders while prison guards turned a blind eye to the abuse.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And that morning, the couple noticed the Thunderbird next to an orange Buick. They also said there was a man standing next to the cars, and it was clear that the Thunderbird wouldn't start. The car had broken down. Now, Richard actually approached the man and asked if he needed any help, but the man said no. He also appeared to be a little nervous.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
This man would later be identified as Kenneth McDuff. And shortly after Richard approached him, Kenneth jumped into the orange Buick and took off down the road, leaving his Thunderbird abandoned in the hotel's parking lot.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Soon enough, McLennan County Sheriff's officers arrived at the quick pack after getting Aaron's 911 call. But as they walked through the store, they saw that there was no sign of a struggle. The empty cash register was concerning, but the officers weren't thinking that Melissa had been abducted by a serial killer. In fact, they were actually suspicious of Aaron.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But unbeknownst to anyone, the real person responsible for her disappearance was Kenneth McDuff, who by this point was speeding out of town in Melissa's Buick. By March 3rd, two days after murdering Melissa, no one had seen or heard from Kenneth McDuff, and his mother Addie was growing concerned. So much so, she called the Bell County Sheriff's Department to file a missing persons report.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
An officer arrived at the McDuff residence, and Addie told him that she had last seen her son on the morning of February 29th. but she was concerned because he had left her house upset and in a hurry. She believed that something terrible had happened to him. Eventually, the missing persons report ended up on the desk of investigator Tim Steglick.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Tim entered Kenneth's information into the system and discovered his long criminal rap sheet. And even during the beginning of the investigation, Tim felt that something was off about his mysterious disappearance. When he phoned Addie to find out more information, She told him that he failed to meet with his probation officer in Temple and that he was set to graduate from college soon.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
According to Addie, Kenneth would never have left shortly before graduation, and she believed that someone had murdered him.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
David said that the Texas prisons were a violation of his constitutional rights. After eight long years, the case of Ruiz v. Estelle went before United States District Judge William Wayne Justice of Tyler. It would be the longest trial in the history of Texas, a total of 129 days. Ultimately, Judge Justice ruled in favor of the plaintiff.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Like the Thunderbird, Kenneth had abandoned her vehicle. They searched it for clues, but only located a few bags of clothing that Melissa intended to donate to Goodwill. However, the front seat of the Buick had been pushed back as far as it would go, which was strange considering Melissa was only 4 feet 11 inches tall. It was becoming clear that Kenneth had been driving her car.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, the search for Melissa had been well underway, but after connecting her disappearance to a known serial killer, investigators decided to get the FBI involved. The FBI ended up reaching out to the Sheriff's Department in Everman, the town where Kenneth had committed his first known killings of the three teenagers.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And as you can imagine, when they heard that he was a suspect in the disappearance of a pregnant woman, they were horrified. They had known from the very beginning that Kenneth McDuff would kill again. And sure enough, here they were. When one of the agents spoke to the sheriff and Everman, they asked if he believed Kenneth was responsible. And he stated, Absolutely.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, technically, there wasn't enough evidence to issue a warrant for his arrest just yet. They of course knew that he was responsible for Melissa's disappearance, but they couldn't prove it. However, they were able to come up with some charges against him.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Apparently, in the past, Kenneth had sold drugs to an undercover informant, so they charged him with peddling drugs and possessing firearms, both federal offenses, which meant Kenneth McDuff was now a federal fugitive.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
from there there were a lot of changes in the state's prison system the court ruled that severe overcrowding in texas prisons was unconstitutional there were population caps in prisons and the state was forced to either build new prisons or release inmates early to meet the new limits
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Residents at the apartment complex would later say that he mostly kept to himself. He reported to work every day and didn't party at night. He was doing his absolute best to try and lay low. But if you've learned anything about Kenneth McDuff, then you'll know that it wouldn't be long until he reverted back to his old ways.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
april 10 1992 kenneth was in kansas city looking for a sex worker but he happened to walk right into a sting investigators had set up decoys throughout the city and kenneth walked right into their trap after trying to solicit sex from a decoy he was quickly arrested but in typical kenneth mcduff fashion he was somehow able to get away
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Yet again, believe it or not, when he was brought into the police station, they fingerprinted him and he said his name was Richard Fowler, and somehow they believed him. Then shortly afterwards, he was released. The investigators in Kansas City let him go, completely unaware that he was a wanted fugitive. From there, Kenneth went back home where he lived with his new roommate, Frances.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And like all of the friends he had before, Kenneth went on and on about all of the crimes he had committed throughout his life. He told Francis about his drug use and robberies, which didn't scare Francis away. So eventually, Kenneth opened up to him about the women he had killed. He even told them that he loved to kill his victims with his bare hands.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Francis would later admit that he noticed Kenneth always slept with a butcher knife on his pillow, and every time he would receive a paycheck, he would spend all of it on crack cocaine.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
With this ruling, county jails were filling up with state prisoners waiting to be transferred to prisons that had no space. According to author Gary LaVerne in his book titled Bad Boy, the Texas Department of Corrections was instructed to parole prisoners to make space for new inmates. He stated, They were instructed to release 150 prisoners a day, 750 a week, 3,000 a month, 36,000 per year,
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories. Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
or nearly 75% of the population Judge Justice allowed to be housed in Texas prisons in 1987.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
On March 25th, a local Waco resident decided to eat lunch in a remote area behind the Texas State Technical College, where Kenneth had been enrolled before he fled Texas. As this person sat down to enjoy his sandwich, he heard the sound of buzzing behind him. When he turned around to see what it was, he noticed a strange pile of brush.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Curious, the man approached the area and made a shocking discovery. A human skull. From here he immediately called 911 and investigators quickly arrived at the scene. And under the brush was a human body. It had been mostly intact except for the skull. Fingerprints would later determine that the body belonged to Valencia K. Joshua.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
the sex worker that was last seen knocking on Kenneth's door on campus. Now, Kay was found nude and in the fetal position. Due to the state of the body, the medical examiner could not determine the official cause of death, but ruled it as homicidal violence. And there was one crucial piece of evidence at the scene. It was a hair that did not belong to Kay.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Investigators would later learn that the hair belonged to none other than Kenneth McDuff.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
On May 6, 1992, Kenneth McDuff was transported via aircraft back to Texas with the U.S. Marshals. Although residents of Texas were relieved that Kenneth had been caught, others were angry that he had been able to get away with it for so long. Melissa Northrup's sister-in-law said, "...I hate him. I want to see him fry."
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, earlier we mentioned the yogurt shop murders where four teenage girls had been brutally raped, murdered, and set on fire in Austin, Texas. And given that Kenneth was in the Austin area at the time, they had to look into him as a suspect. But DNA evidence would later prove that it wasn't him. However, around this time, he was looked into as a suspect.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But clearly after his arrest, everyone wanted to know how a convicted killer, who was once sentenced to death after murdering three teens, was able to walk free and become a member of society. So there was a lot of talk about the circumstances surrounding his original parole in 1989. If you remember, he was also convicted of trying to bribe one of the members of his parole board.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, something we haven't yet mentioned is that Kenneth actually had a grown daughter at the time of his arrest. Her name is Teresa Allen. And can you guess how Teresa was conceived? Well, sadly, in 1964, Kenneth had raped a woman and nearly killed her. Following the rape, the woman found out she was pregnant. Teresa never had a good relationship with her biological father, Kenneth.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But in her 20s, when he was incarcerated, she started visiting him. Teresa said she was shocked when she learned that her father had been paroled back in 1989. And from the beginning, she always believed that her dad paid his way out of prison.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
In February of 1993, Kenneth McDuff went on trial for the abduction and murder of Melissa Northrup. But it wasn't going to be an easy trial, as there were no eyewitnesses nor any physical evidence tying Kenneth to the crime scene. For the prosecutors, there was only circumstantial evidence.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Over the next few weeks, dozens of witnesses took the stand, including Kenneth's mother, Addie McDuff, Melissa Northrup's mother, Barbara, and of course, Kenneth's wingman in the Colleen Reed murder, Hank Worley. Now, there had been an argument on whether or not Hank should testify because he wasn't linked to the Melissa Northrup case.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
However, the prosecution wanted to compare the similarities between both Colleen and Melissa. They wanted the jury to see just what type of monster they were dealing with. Interestingly, a few days into the trial, Kenneth's public defenders asked to be relieved of their duties.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
They told Judge Bob Burdette that Kenneth refused to let them lead, second-guessing their defense strategy and arguing with them in the courtroom. But the final straw was when Kenneth told them he was going to testify on his own behalf. They did not believe it was a good idea, but Kenneth wouldn't take no for an answer.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Judge Burdette allowed Kenneth to take the stand, and for two and a half hours, Kenneth spun an elaborate tale of drugs, prostitution, and robberies. It appeared as though he loved to hear himself speak, and he told the court that on the night of Melissa's disappearance, he had met a man named Al, though Al could never be located.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But according to Kenneth, this Al guy paid him $1,500 for his Thunderbird, and in return, he was traded Melissa's orange Buick. But Kenneth said he did not know it was stolen and that he was innocent. But of course, it was obvious to everyone in the courtroom that he was lying.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
With Kenneth now behind bars, it was time to look into how all of this had happened. Everyone wanted answers as to how Kenneth was released from prison back in 1989.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And soon enough, on September 1st, 1993, news hit the media that the Texas Department of Criminal Justice fired prison and parole chief James Lina due to instances of corruption on how he allowed violent criminals to walk free from prison. They had come to a horrifying reality that if Kenneth had not been paroled, dozens of Texas women would still be alive.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
And Kenneth wasn't the only violent criminal they had set free.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
It's wild that these types of men were allowed to walk free, simply to control overcrowding. And Kenneth McDuff's crimes put a huge spotlight on how horrible of a mistake this was. The Texas Department of Criminal Justice tried to make things right by firing the parole chief. But the damage was already done. Now, as for Kenneth McDuff's other crimes, he still had to face his day in court.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
On January 20th, 1994, he was on trial once again for the abduction and murder of Colleen Reed in Austin, Texas. Sadly, by the time the trial started, Colleen's body still hadn't been found. but they did have physical evidence that proved Kenneth was guilty. In the backseat of his Thunderbird, five strands of Colleen's hair were found.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
In addition, they had the testimony of his accomplice, Hank Worley. And it would only take the jury two and a half hours to reach their verdict. Once again, they found Kenneth guilty of capital murder, aggravated kidnapping, and aggravated sexual assault. After the verdict was read, Kenneth remained calm, cool, and collected at the defense table.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
However, as he was being led out of the courtroom, he lunged at Hank Worley. He also told a reporter that Hank had confessed to the yogurt shop murders. Here's the audio of Kenneth saying this.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Now, during the sentencing phase of Colleen's murder trial, Roy Dale Green once again made an appearance, telling the jury of the horrors he had witnessed during the Broomstick murders. And after only 55 minutes of deliberation, the jury handed down another death sentence to Kenneth McDuff. From there, Kenneth was taken to the Ellis unit on death row, and he was segregated for his own protection.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But by this point, he'd only been convicted of two murders he committed following his parole, the murders of Melissa Northrup and Colleen Reed. But what about the others? Well, in 1998, authorities decided to go to Kenneth and see if he would tell them where some of the bodies were located.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
At this time, Virginia Moore, Brenda Thompson, and Colleen Reed had never been found, and their families desperately wanted them back. At first, Kenneth wouldn't give any information, but after a few meetings, he started talking. And finally, he gave up the location of Virginia Moore.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Kenneth admitted that he had buried her under rocks and a piece of old carpet near the State Highway 6 bridge and the Tehuacana Creek near Waco. And on September 29th, 1998, her body was finally discovered.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
The next victim they needed to find was Colleen Reed, which wouldn't be easy. For some reason, Kenneth did not want to give up the location. He told investigators that they would never be able to locate her without him present. He gave a general area, but it was too difficult to find. And when asked if it was the same location where she was murdered, he once again blamed Hank Worley.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But finally, on October 12, 1998, investigators, accompanied by Kenneth McDuff, located the skeletal remains of Colleen Reed near the Brazos River. After seven long years, Colleen was finally going home to her family in Louisiana. Here's some footage from her funeral.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
With them being sex workers, Kenneth didn't value their lives as much, so it was easy for him to talk about. On death row, he admitted that Brenda had been his first victim after his parole in 1989 and that he had taken her to a secluded location after dodging the Waco police checkpoint.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
After she tried to break his windshield, Kenneth was furious and told her, For the next six hours, Kenneth brutally tortured and raped Brenda and then choked her with his own two hands.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
as for reginia moore kenneth said that the two smoked rocks together and then he drove her to a secluded location and killed her just for the hell of it but again even with this confession he would never be convicted for their murders but justice was right around the corner because kenneth mcduff's execution was scheduled for november 17 1998.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
In the weeks before, investigators in Texas were still pleading with McDuff to give over more information about his killings and other potential victims. Horrifically, they think he could have been tied to at least a dozen more unsolved murders.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Following his execution, Kenneth Allen McDuff was buried in the Captain Joe Byrd Cemetery, also known as Peckerwood Hill. The prison cemetery is reserved for inmates who are not claimed by their family members after death. Apparently, none of his family wanted to claim Kenneth after his execution. His headstone does not contain his name.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
only his death row inmate number 999055 and the date of his death, November 17th, 1998. His execution brought not only long overdue justice, but prison reforms that ensured violent criminals like himself would never be able to walk free again. As for Hank Worley, he was convicted of aggravated sexual assault and sentenced to 40 years in prison. He is projected to be released on May 14, 2032.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But in conclusion, the life of Kenneth McDuff would go on to be very eye-opening for the state of Texas and how they handled their violent offenders. The Texas Department of Criminal Justice even introduced what they called the McDuff Laws.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
The news of McDuff's release was a shock to everyone. But the residents of Fall County were the most outraged of all. Even though it had been decades since Luis, Robert, and Marcus had been killed, their deaths were still felt throughout their community. Now, the man who actually arrested McDuff for those murders back in 1966 was Sheriff Brady Pamplin. And by 1989, he was retired.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Two billion dollars was spent on building more prisons, increasing the number of prison beds, and also increasing the number of units in each prison, so that violent offenders wouldn't be released back into society due to overcrowding. The governor at the time, Ann Richards, stated, If you're going to bring down the crime rate, you're going to have to build prisons to lock these people up.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Would I rather spend the money in another way? Absolutely, yes. But this is a necessity that I see no other way around. There was also the introduction of the McDuff Rule, which stated that if a violent offender is convicted of capital murder and not given the death penalty, they would now be required to spend a minimum of 40 years in prison before they'd be eligible for parole.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Hey everybody. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of murder in America. Wow. This story is infuriating. The story is horrifying. I just could not believe the details of this and the failures of the Texas department of corrections. I mean, This entire story is just so wild. It's hard to wrap your head around the fact that this actually happened in real life. Just wild.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
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Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
We also have for the higher tiers, tons of bonus content, entire full length episodes of murder in America, over a hundred of them at this point with both Courtney and I, the sound effects, the music, everything. So if you love the show and you want to support what we do here, please consider joining us there. Don't forget to leave us a five-star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
If you haven't already follow us on Instagram at at murder in america to see photos from every single case that we cover and yeah courtney and i just want to thank you guys so much for listening this week we have another wild story coming next week and yeah have a great weekend or week and i'll catch y'all on the next one
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
But when he heard the news, he immediately called up his old colleagues.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
sooner or later the bodies of young girls young ladies or boys are going to start turning up when parnell heard this news there was silence on the other end of the line finally after several seconds he said have they gone crazy now these officers got to see the brutality of mcduff's crimes firsthand it was the case that would forever stick with them
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
Retired Sheriff Brady Pamplin was a Texas Ranger and a World War II vet before he served on the force for 30 years. He had seen the worst of the worst, but nothing was as sadistic and violent as McDuff's crimes. So to them, when they heard he was back on the streets, they were incredibly worried.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
After his retirement, Brady Pamplin's son actually became the sheriff of Falls County, and they were determined to keep an eye on McDuff to make sure he didn't hurt anyone else. But Kenneth wasn't staying in one place for long. Life in Rosebud was not what Kenneth expected. By then, most of his family had families of their own and had moved away.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
His older brother Lonnie, who was his closest sibling, had actually been murdered while he was in prison. Apparently, he was shot to death by the ex-husband of this girl he had been seeing. So after Kenneth's release, it seemed as if Rosebud was no longer serving him. But before moving, it's widely believed that he committed a crime in the nearby town of Temple, Texas.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
After that murder, McDuff moved around a lot. He couldn't seem to stay in one place. He moved to Temple, Cameron, Bellmead, Tyler, Dallas, and Rockdale. On October 17th, he was living in Rockdale with his sister, but almost immediately he started having problems with his brother-in-law. Apparently, Kenneth would just take their car whenever he wanted to. He also refused to get a job.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
At dinner, the family would sit down together and Kenneth would start making crude comments about women right in front of his young nephew. So eventually, Kenneth was kicked out. From there, he had no other choice but to move back in with his mother and Rosebud. And as you can imagine, he really took advantage of her.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
For his entire life, Addie McDuff thought her son could do no wrong, even after he was convicted of murdering three teenagers. Once he was released from prison, Addie bought him another car. She gave him a credit card that she would pay off every single month, and she didn't force him to get a job. Even further, Kenneth truly believed that the Justice for Macduff Inc. was going to make him famous.
Murder In America
EP. 195: TEXAS - The "Lucky" Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff
His attorney told him that they were talking about this movie and book deal. So in Kenneth's mind, he didn't have to work, and he was able to go about life however he wanted to.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our programs, so make sure If you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook, and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all. But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
From the very beginning, investigators knew that something was wrong here. What were Brittany and Celeste hiding? From here, both women were taken to the police station for questioning, and on multiple occasions, their stories changed. But throughout it all, they both stayed calm and collected.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Now, they had obtained a vacant room list from on-site maintenance, and using this list, they went room to room to make sure Amari wasn't kidnapped or walked into an empty room by herself. They also called guests of the hotel to see if anyone witnessed anything, but unfortunately, no one had seen Amari Hall.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
So, from here, Gwinnett Police issued a public statement that said that they did not have any leads, but were confident that no foul play was involved. Corporal Kylie Boney stated, Miss Hall is new to the area, so she doesn't have a lot of friends or family she would reach out to.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
On October 30, 2013, a little baby girl named Emori Nicole Hall was brought into the world. It was Brittany Hall's first child, and even though the father wasn't in the picture, Brittany was excited to venture into motherhood. But being a single mother isn't easy. Luckily for her, Brittany's mother, Barbara Wright, was more than willing to help her out.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Officers are just patrolling the area, searching the woods, searching different businesses, trying to figure out where she could have gone. Wherever she is, I trust that the public, alongside the police department and our resources, we can locate Nicole and try and give the family some answers.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Once they were at the police station, Celeste Owens was taken into interview room number three, and Brittany Hall was taken into interview room number one. Both children, Zaire and Jakari, were instructed to wait in a waiting room equipped with children's toys, while Brittany and Celeste were questioned. Officer Sorensen and Detective Matthew Conway were assigned to interview Celeste.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
It was obvious from the beginning that Celeste struggled to keep her timeline straight. Here's some footage from Celeste's interview. Now, at points, you'll hear her call Amari, Nicole, because she sometimes went by both names.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Soon after her birth, Brittany and baby Amore moved in with Barbara and her husband, Tony, in their home located in DeKalb County, Georgia. And for the first few years of Amore's life, things were going well. She had a good support system. She was surrounded by people who loved her.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
barbara who amari called gigi said that growing up amore was a curious intelligent and vibrant child who enjoyed playing dress up and helping her grandmother cook barbara said that she will never forget the first time they made cornbread together amore helped her crack the eggs stir the batter and butter the pan and when it was time to pull it out of the oven amore's eyes lit up she was so proud of herself making something with her own two hands and watching it form into what she said looked like a beautiful cake
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
From the moment Detective Conway and Officer Sorenson questioned her, Celeste's story was all over the place. Unsure about timelines, inconsistent, and riddled with lies. But Detective Conway stated that the only thing they wanted to know was what happened to Amari Hall.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
literally think that she just of course ran away but i literally think that god forbid somebody snatched her up so according to celeste amore likely got angry and left the hotel room then somewhere along the way she could have been kidnapped celeste admitted that amari didn't have a history of running away but there was an incident at flat shoals elementary school where amari got angry and left the classroom
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Next, detectives want to know about Brittany and Celeste's parenting methods, specifically if they physically punished Amori when she acted out, but Celeste was adamant that they never did that, although cell phone recordings would later prove this was a lie. So, using a common interrogation tactic, Detective Conway asked if perhaps there had been an accident on the night Amori disappeared.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
They wanted Celeste to provide more information, while also giving her an option to minimize her involvement.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events,
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories we're presenting you people with facts telling you the story walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with murder in america and then letting the listener decide what they think anyways you should definitely give it a listen it's called the conspiracy files the links are in the description of this show and you can find it on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and now let's get back to our story
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Detective Conway and Officer Sorensen believed that Celeste knew more than what she was telling them. They told her that they were going to get a search warrant to check her phone to see if her timeline of events matched what was in her phone. Lift rides, her sister calling to babysit, and her exact movements and locations on the night Amari disappeared.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
And it's here where Celeste started to get defensive. which only raised more red flags for investigators. Detective Conway then explained that it was their job to investigate every lead-in statement, even if the statement came from a 6-year-old child.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Amari was also very well-behaved and an excellent student at Flat Shoals Elementary School. Now, according to her mom, Brittany, Amari was diagnosed with high-functioning autism, but the rest of her family never knew about this diagnosis. When Brittany wasn't available to take her children to the pediatrician, Barbara took them and she was never told that Amari was autistic.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Now, the fact that Zier said that Dad, which is what they called Celeste, took Amore out of the room that night was of huge importance to investigators. Kids don't lie about that kind of stuff. But detectives also couldn't help but notice when talking to the children that they had bruises covering their bodies.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Celeste tried to explain away the physical signs of abuse by saying that Amore and Zier often got into fights.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
barbara spent a lot of time with the child in fact for the entire year of 2020 and in the beginning of 2021 barbara took care of all three of brittany's children but for years it had been this back and forth of sending her kids to live with grandma but finally in 2021 brittany decided that she wanted them back so that's what she did
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
The investigators were very patient with Celeste. They let her ramble on about her innocence for hours, but the one thing they kept coming back to was her whereabouts that night. Celeste's story about her babysitting her nieces and nephews was a flat-out lie. In fact, investigators spoke to her family, and they claimed that they hadn't seen Celeste in months. So, they confront her about this.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Now, interestingly, there isn't a lot of information about Brittany Hall and what was happening with her during this time. But by Monday, November 22nd, there were still no signs of Amaury Hall. For days, investigators had been searching for the eight-year-old girl with no luck. And by 1015, they had to call off the search until the following day.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
However, this time, they issued a statement saying that they believed Amaury was in danger.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Back at the Gwinnett County Police Department, Celeste's cell phone was in the process of being searched. According to Officer Sorenson, it took a few hours to extract the data, but by the morning of Monday, November 22nd, around 9 a.m., they had uncovered some videos that disturbed them to their core.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
It was footage of all three of Brittany's children, Amori, Zaire, and Jakari, being subjected to cruel physical and mental abuse. The dates of the abuse range from July 20th, 2021 to August 9th, 2021. We're going to play some of the audio that they found from the videos on Celeste's phone.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
And they're a little hard to hear, but trigger warning, you will hear the sounds of the children being physically abused.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
In these absolutely horrific videos, Jakari was shown on the floor as his mother Brittany walked past him and said, you're stupid as fuck, before hitting him 11 times on the back. Another video showed Jakari blindfolded on the floor and Celeste walked up to him, tightening the cloth around his eyes, and proceeded to slap him across the face and kick him while he was on the ground.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Another video showed one of the young girls getting slapped across the face with such force that her head was knocked sideways. After reviewing the shocking footage taken from Celeste's cell phone, investigators located Brittany Hall and she was also arrested and booked at the Gwinnett County Jail on child cruelty charges.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Barbara never knew why Brittany stopped communication and stated that the two never even had a falling out. She said that although the two had disagreements, there was never a moment where she pushed her daughter away. The last holiday she spent with Brittany, Amori, Zier, and Jakari, Christmas 2020, had been a happy occasion.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
People suspected that Celeste Owens was the one who killed Amari and that Brittany Hall, Amari's mother, helped her conceal the crime. Now, Celeste, who was in police custody, was now facing 11 cruelty to children charges, falsely reporting a crime, aggravated battery, aggravated assault, concealing the death of another, and felony and malice murder.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Brittany Hall was now charged with felony child cruelty charges, falsely reporting a crime, and concealing the death of her own daughter. Both women were held at the Gwinnett County Jail without bond. Following the discovery of Amaury Hall, her body was taken to the Gwinnett County Medical Examiner's Office for a complete and thorough autopsy.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
On the morning of November 24th, Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. James Downs was the physician in charge of determining the cause and manner of death. Upon review of the child's body, Dr. Downs discovered several blunt force injuries and extreme malnutrition. He determined that Amore's cause of death was battered child syndrome and the manner was homicide.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
After the shocking details emerged of Amore Hall's final hours of life, investigators were hard at work trying to find out the timeline of events in regards to Celeste Owens and Brittany Hall. One of the detectives assigned to go through Celeste's cell phone, Detective Randy Blackburn, discovered concerning searches that were conducted a few days before Amore was reported missing.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
on november 19th 2021 around 4 a.m celeste google searched what to do when a child just won't listen a few minutes later she searched what to do when a child doesn't listen around noon celeste google searched lakes in the area apparently investigators also discovered that celeste deleted her search history prior to giving her cell phone to law enforcement other google searches on november 19th were how do sewers on the street work
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Why do kids run away? How do I report someone missing? What to do if a loved one goes missing? Why is it so hard to find missing people? How do sewer drains work? And U-Haul customer account. Obviously, investigators were interested in why Celeste wanted to access her U-Haul account.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
They also discovered that on the same day, Celeste's cell phone locator showed that she had visited an A1 storage facility off Lawrenceville Highway. When investigators arrived at the location, store employees were able to provide a receipt that showed Celeste had rented a U-Haul van on that same date.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
They also provided call logs that showed Celeste's name and phone number where she had called multiple times to inquire about renting a van.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
ultimately celeste rented a van on november 19th at 106 pm she returned the van on the same day at 7 36 pm the total number of miles driven within the six hour time frame was 27. surveillance footage showed that celeste showed up at the a1 storage around 12 50 pm via uber waited in line for roughly 15 minutes and then left the location in the u-haul van at around 109 pm
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Detective Blackburn indicated that after Brittany Hall was arrested on November 22nd, she provided crucial information as to where Amari's body might be located. She also admitted that she was aware of the abuse by Celeste, downplaying her own involvement, and that she did not go with Celeste to dispose of her daughter's body.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Unfortunately, after several hours of extensive searching, they were unable to locate her due to the sun going down. However, the next morning, November 23rd, they successfully located her body in the same vicinity where Brittany said she might be. And the evidence against Celeste Owen was damning.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
In fact, the U-Haul tracked that Celeste had traveled 27 miles, which happened to be the exact mileage from the hometown studios to the dump site and then back to the A1 storage facility. Now, investigators did have a cadaver dog named Sierra, who's a blonde Labrador retriever, come sniff the van for any sign of human remains.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
But it's believed that the van had been thoroughly cleaned with that bleach that Celeste bought, so the dog wouldn't have been able to sniff out decomposition. However, using Celebrite's software, investigators were able to download and review Celeste's geolocation data on November 19th. Between 1241 p.m.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
and 1259 p.m., Celeste's location traveled from the hometown studios to the A1 storage facility, evidence that was backed up with surveillance video and a receipt. And although there was no geolocation between 546 p.m. and 727 p.m., Flock cameras continued to capture the U-Haul van moving south towards DeKalb County.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
According to court records, Celeste arrived in DeKalb County at around 6.35 p.m., and Celeste was also tracked traveling to the same general vicinity where Amore's body would later be discovered. Also, according to cell phone data, Celeste made an outgoing phone call to a number listed under the name My Lady at 6.58 p.m.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
around 7 pm flock cameras were able to capture celeste and the u-haul van heading back north away from decalb county according to investigators celeste had triggered specific preference settings on her cell phone during the time her geolocation was untraceable
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
but despite all the evidence against them celeste's defense attorney robert greenwald fought to show the jury that there was reasonable doubt he argued that there was no evidence to suggest that celeste was responsible for amari's murder instead he blamed brittany hall for killing her own daughter and instructed the jurors to look at evidence and not to rely on emotion or sympathy and you may be wondering how do investigators know that celeste was the one who killed amari
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Well, during the trial, multiple witnesses took the stand for the prosecution, pointing the finger at Celeste. But the most crucial witness was Omari's younger sister, Zaire.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
on the floor assistant district attorney brian brown asked zaire about the last night she had seen amari but zaire was having some trouble remembering so they ended up showing her this video of her interview with investigators on the morning that amore went missing and this seemed to help jog her memory that night i ate real food and and my brother and my sister didn't get they no real food and then my sister wanted
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
signed and dated this 13th day of december 2024 by the poor person before judge angela duncan sentenced celeste owens prosecutor sabrina nazim asked for the harshest sentence possible life in prison without the possibility of parole plus an extra 235 years amari's loved ones including her grandmother and grandfather barbara and tony wright and amari's aunt takara wright were also able to read their victims impact statements to the court
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Gwinnett County District Attorney Patsy Austin Gatson stated, "...this was a horrible way to treat these children and a tragedy that Amore Hill was killed as a result. We pray that her sister and brother are able to heal from the abuse they endured and that their extended family can get a sense of closure."
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Following her sentencing, Celeste was escorted out of the courtroom and immediately taken into custody. Today, Celeste is housed at the Arendelle State Prison in Georgia, where she will remain for the rest of her life. As for Brittany Hall, her charges were upgraded to include malice murder and felony murder.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
She's currently residing at the Gwinnett County Jail until her trial, which has yet to be scheduled.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Today we will be making a donation to the National Child Abuse Coalition An organization that aims to prevent and address child abuse and neglect They also work to reform federal policies within the child welfare system Hey everybody, it's Colin here.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America from both Courtney and I. We are actually recording this episode in Colorado. We've been on our yearly anniversary vacation, still working on all of our shows and our projects. So we didn't really take the week off. We've just been enjoying some time together out in the Colorado wilderness.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
And yeah, we're going to be back next week with an episode that I've wanted to share and talk about for a long time. So I'm really excited to get this story back out into the world. If you guys don't like the ads on our show and you want to get early access to all of the episodes, please consider joining us on Patreon.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
On Patreon, you can get access to ad-free versions of every episode of the show, and there's also tons of bonus episodes. So if you've listened to every episode of Murder in America and you want more, Go check out our Patreon. There's going to be a new episode added this week for Certain Tears.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
The Georgia Department of Human Services Division of Family and Children Services had a history with Brittany and her oldest child, Amori. There were three investigations of abuse and neglect opened in 2015, 2017, and 2021. Ultimately, DHS never found enough evidence to charge Brittany, and she was allowed to keep her three children.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Of course, the truth would finally be revealed on the morning of Sunday, November 21, 2021.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
It wasn't long before police officers arrived at the hometown studios to speak with Brittany and her partner Celeste, and immediately, they started searching nearby areas for any signs of 8-year-old Amari Hall. Officer Jonathan Sorensen was the on-call detective for the Special Victims Unit that weekend, and arrived at room 251 around noon.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Before he was dispatched to the scene, Officer Sorensen issued a BOLO alert with a description of the area and what Amari was last seen wearing. It read, The Gwinnett County Police Department is searching for eight-year-old female Nicole Hall. Hall was last seen by her mother between midnight and 1 a.m. this morning. Hall went missing from the Homewood Studios at 7049 Jimmy Carter Boulevard.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Hall has autism and is new to the Peachtree Corners area. Hall was last seen wearing a blue Tweety Bird jacket with a blue and white pajama set. She is possibly wearing her glasses and her rainbow light-up shoes. Hall is 4 foot 10 inches tall and weighs approximately 80 pounds. She's a black female with brown eyes and black shoulder-length hair.
Murder In America
EP. 191: GEORGIA - The Child In The Trash Bag: The Disturbing Murder of Amari Hall
Hall's mother is extremely concerned for her daughter's safety. Anyone who may come into contact with her or learn of her whereabouts to call the police immediately.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Another woman named Cadence Lennon also responded saying this.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
But unfortunately, even after reporting this incident to the police, nothing would happen. Apparently, when the cops asked Devin about it, he denied it. According to Kaylee, Devin's family even started blaming their daughters, saying that the girls were snooping around looking in their windows, and that while doing so, they had caught a glimpse of Devin masturbating.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
But Kaylee was adamant that that was not what happened.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
The Idaho Tribune also reported that two sources said Devin Smith was given two days of in-school suspension after he was caught masturbating in class. But according to the news report, the allegations were never confirmed.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
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EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
But let's get back to the story. Kaylee made another Facebook post, this time with a picture of Devin. And she stated the following.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Once again, someone responded to her post with a personal story of Devin. It read as follows.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Now, Kenna's friend, Katie Ann James, stated in a later interview with the Spokesman Review that Devin had a learning disability and struggled socially, but she said that he had been working hard to overcome his issues. Devin's great uncle, Joe Guadipi, admitted that his mother, Kenna, had reached out to the state for help to try and get Devin counseling, as she couldn't afford it on her own.
Murder In America
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But after she sent in her application, there was just little that they could do.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
And by looking at their Facebook accounts, it's clear that this incident was really affecting them. Major John and Kaylee even shared a meme over Facebook that referred to the infamous story of Leon Gary Plouchet. The meme referenced a well-known case where Gary's 10-year-old son, Jody, was kidnapped and molested by his karate coach, Jeff Doucet, in 1984.
Murder In America
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Jeff had taken Jody to Disneyland, where he repeatedly sodomized the young boy. Now, eventually, Jeff's crimes were exposed to the world, and he was soon arrested. However, unbeknownst to everyone, as Jeff was being extradited back to Louisiana, Jody's father was hiding near a payphone at the airport. After he found out what happened to his son, he wanted to take revenge.
Murder In America
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So, Gary hid that day near the payphone at the airport, waiting for his son's abuser to walk by. Now, he actually was on the phone at the time with his best friend Jimmy. And during that phone call, he sees Jeff walking in his direction, with the police and camera crews from the local news station by his side. And at that moment, Gary whispered to his friend on the phone, Here he comes.
Murder In America
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You're about to hear a shot. And just as Jeff walked by, news cameras rolling, Gary reached into his right boot, spun around, and quickly fired one bullet from his .38 snub-nosed revolver into Jeff's head. Here's the audio from that shooting.
Murder In America
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Now, that case was huge at the time. Everyone in America was watching it all unfold, and most people stood with the killer, Gary Poche. They applauded his actions, and many said that they would have done the same thing if their kid was being abused. Surprisingly, Gary didn't even have to serve prison time for killing his son's abuser.
Murder In America
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Instead, he was given a suspended sentence of seven years, and he had to complete some community service. But for decades, when it comes to child abuse cases, people referenced that Gary story. And still to this day, they talk about how he was a hero. And it seems as if Major John and Kaylee Kaler thought this as well.
Murder In America
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Because after the incident with Devin Smith, they reposted this cartoon photo of Gary shooting Jeff with the title, How to Catch a Predator.
Murder In America
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This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Kellogg, Idaho is a small city nestled in the Silver Valley of Shawnee County and surrounded by the Coeur d'Alene Mountains. The town, named after prospector Noah Kellogg in 1885, derived from a legend that Noah stumbled upon a rich galena with the help of his wandering donkey. Today, a local sign reads, this is the town founded by a jackass and inhabited by his descendants.
Murder In America
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At 7.20 p.m., a 911 call came into the police department indicating shots were fired around 515 Brown Avenue in Kellogg. Shortly after that, a second 911 call came in from the shooter himself. During the call, he told the dispatcher, This is Major John Kaler. I just went downstairs and executed a fucking pedophile and his family. The dispatcher asked, You shot somebody?
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
And Major John replied, I shot four people. They're all dead. At 7.24pm, four minutes after the 911 call was placed, Sergeant Jared Bulaski of the Shoshone County Sheriff's Department arrived at the scene and saw Major John Kaler outside on the street with another neighbor named Hunter Jones.
Murder In America
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Not fully understanding what had happened, Sergeant Bulaski approached Major John and he admitted that he had just shot his neighbors. The officer responded, You what? And Major John repeated that he had shot and killed his four neighbors. Sergeant Belaski asked Major John if he was still armed with the weapon, and he admitted that he had put the gun away.
Murder In America
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The officer then ordered Major John to the ground, but he was in some pain as he had just broken his shoulder. now as major john was being handcuffed sergeant belaski looked over at hunter their neighbor and stated that he was going to pat her down for weapons but major john stated that hunter had nothing to do with what was going on she seemed to be just as confused as he was
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
As you can imagine, Sergeant Belaski was dumbfounded over the call he just responded to. It's not every day that you're the first officer on the scene of a quadruple homicide. And as Major John was being handcuffed, Sergeant Belaski was still trying to get an understanding of what happened here.
Murder In America
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Major John told the officer that his neighbor was a pedophile and that the police department refused to do anything about it. He admitted that minutes earlier, when he encountered Devin's mother and grandpa outside, he tried to talk to them about what happened, but they told him that there was nothing they could do.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
And in that moment, Major John said he snapped and killed everyone in the apartment.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
In the early 20th century, the town was a booming mining hub, centered around the Bunker Hill Mine, which was, at the time, one of the world's leading producers of lead. At its peak, the town catered to over 6,000 residents. However, after the Bunker Hill Mine closure in 1981, the town was deserted.
Murder In America
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As officers looked around the property, they were met with a horrific scene. Outside the ground floor apartment, in the backyard, Kenneth and Kenna Guardipi lay dead. Kenna was located face up near the exterior concrete steps to apartment A. Near her body was the body of her father, Kenneth. His body was located partially on the concrete steps and partially in a garden next to the steps.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Around their bodies, police located several .45 caliber shell casings. From here, the officers went into the apartment. 16-year-old Akin Smith was located between the living room and kitchen on his stomach. Only one .45 caliber bullet casing was found near his body. Then they found 18-year-old Devin Smith.
Murder In America
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As soon as they stepped foot in his bedroom, they knew that he was the intended target that evening. He was found on his knees face down with his head riddled with bullets. Several .45 caliber casings were found around his body. This was overkill. and all four victims had been murdered execution-style.
Murder In America
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Now, later that night, investigators were able to get a search warrant for Major John's black 2022 Dodge Ram, and inside of it, on the driver's seat, they found his belt, holster, and semi-automatic pistol. It was later discovered that there was blood and tissue on the gun, which proved Major John had shot his victims at close range. Inside the gun, they found one bullet in the chamber.
Murder In America
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And nearby, underneath the driver's seat, they found an empty magazine, which meant that Major John had reloaded his gun during the shooting.
Murder In America
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Thousands of people were out of work, and the threat of lead contamination made it a super fun site. Businesses closed and people left, leaving behind a shell of a once prosperous town. Today, Kellogg is home to over 2,000 residents and has reinvented itself as a resort town with the development of new restaurants, hotels, condos, shops, a water park, and a golf course.
Murder In America
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That's why this happened. Because no one would do anything about it and I'm not okay with that. I'm not going to let something happen to my fucking kids. I understand, man. And his mother's telling me. He can do whatever he wants. There's nothing you can do about it. So I'm like, you're okay with his behavior? He's never had any repercussions and the whole town is aware of it.
Murder In America
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But no one will do anything about it. Look, dude, it's infuriating. I mean, I... I have three kids.
Murder In America
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Detective Klitsch read Major John his Miranda rights and then continued on with the questioning. Major John admitted that he snapped, lost it, and did something about it. However, he then told the detective that he wanted an attorney and the interview was concluded.
Murder In America
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From here, Major John was taken to the Shoshone County Jail, where he was held without bond and ultimately charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. But as the news spread around the small town of Kellogg, Idaho, the community was shaken. Here's some audio of the neighbors in the area and their reaction to the shooting.
Murder In America
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Each year, thousands of tourists flocked to the Silver Mountain Resort, a popular skiing and snowboarding destination, accessible by the world's longest single-cabin gondola from the city of Kellogg to the lodge on Kellogg Mountain.
Murder In America
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A preliminary hearing for Major John was scheduled for July 3rd, 2023, just weeks after he fatally shot four neighbors. During his first court appearance on June 20th, Shoshone County Prosecuting Attorney Benjamin Allen described the crime scene as relatively horrific and noted that one of the victims, 16-year-old Akin Smith, was only a child. In the courtroom, he stated...
Murder In America
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During a police news conference on that same day, Lt. Paul Berger with the Idaho State Police said,
Murder In America
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this is a tragic situation that will affect the kellogg community detectives continue working to establish a timeline and what led to the shooting according to the charging documents the deaths of kenneth and kenna were premeditated and or to execute vengeance and the deaths of aiken and devin were premeditated to execute vengeance and or committed in the perpetration of a burglary
Murder In America
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But on June 18, 2023, the quiet city would become known for something else, when it was thrust into the spotlight by a shocking crime where four people would lose their lives.
Murder In America
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If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
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On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact.
Murder In America
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I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show. than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
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Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Interestingly, Kenna Guardapie's loved ones seemed to jump to her defense after the murders. One friend even told the public that Kenna was well aware of Devin's issues and that she was working hard to get him the help he needed. But Kenna's name was also dragged through the mud. People were upset with the fact that she had allegedly made excuses for Devin's behavior.
Murder In America
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But her loved ones said that despite what the public has said about her, Kenna was an incredible person.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
Shortly after the murders, Major John's brother, Buddy Kaler, created a GoFundMe for Kaylee and her three children. It read, My name is Buddy Kaler, and I'm trying to raise money for my sister-in-law and three small children for rent, groceries, and the necessities to live after a tragic event.
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After enduring unthinkable sexual harassment by a neighbor, the current situation has left my brother in jail and the three kids and mom without a provider. Thank you for your donations. Anything helps. Today, the GoFundMe is no longer accepting donations. However, it raised $4,529 with a goal of only $4,000. So, as you can see, members of their community felt for the Kaler family.
Murder In America
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Kaylee had been a stay-at-home mom, and now that her husband was in jail, she was going to have to raise their three children all on her own. But their family was very relieved, when on June 21, 2023, the prosecuting attorney, Benjamin Allen, stated that the state of Idaho would not be seeking the death penalty in Major John's trial. Benjamin stated,
Murder In America
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After careful consideration and discussion with the victim's family, our office has made the choice to remove the death penalty as a sentencing option, which will set the path of criminal procedure in this case on course as a non-capital first-degree murder.
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This decision comes as a result of careful consideration of the realities of death penalty statistics within our state, as well as discussions with the family members of the victims involved in this tragic event.
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july 3 2023 the preliminary hearing from major john was rescheduled and a gag order was issued by the shoshone county district court shoshone county prosecuting attorney benjamin allen was set to present witnesses to convince magistrate judge keisha oxendine to move forward with the case against major john but he as well as the defense stated that they needed more time to gather evidence and witnesses
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Although it was rescheduled, Benjamin filed a list of witnesses he already had, including the Spokane County Medical Examiner, the Shoshone County Coroner, the 911 operator, the neighbor who originally called 911, multiple police officers including Sgt. Jared Belaski and Detective Justin Klitsch, and Major John's wife, Kaylee Kaler.
Murder In America
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During this time, Major John sat and waited in the Shoshone County Jail, awaiting his next court appearance. On October 20, 2023, Major John's defense attorney, James Siebe, filed a motion to suppress the statements he had given to Sergeant Jared Bulaski and Detective Klitsch on June 18, 2023, arguing a Fifth Amendment violation.
Murder In America
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The court documents stated that Detective Klitsch failed to read Major John his Miranda rights before he made incriminating statements to the officers.
Murder In America
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james siebe asked the court to throw out everything major john said due to the fact that major john had been coerced into speaking by detective klitsch after he mentioned the podcast about sexual predators and kaylee's facebook post about devon on november 8th the prosecution and defense team argued in front of a judge in wallace idaho
Murder In America
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Major John was the type of guy who liked to work with his hands. In the years prior, according to his Facebook, John worked as a choker-setter-rigging man at Park & Forestry, which is essentially someone who fastens steel cables around logs to prepare them for hauling. But in 2023, he was working as an underground miner at Idaho Strategic Resources.
Murder In America
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On March 19, 2024, friends and relatives of the four victims poured into the courtroom to read their victim impact statements. They urged the judge to give Major John the maximum sentence allowed, life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Murder In America
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The first statement was read by Kenneth's brother, Joe Guardipi, who compared the pain of losing his family members to the pain he experienced in the Vietnam War. He said, you viciously massacred and mutilated him with a large amount of lead bullets. You decided to be judge and jury. You decided to take matters into your own hands.
Murder In America
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You decided it was okay to take the lives of four of my family members. You said you snapped. Did you snap when you told a coworker you were going to do something that would get you in trouble later? Did you snap when you loaded two magazines to the maximum with ammunition? Did you snap when you strapped on a semi-automatic pistol?
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
So, by all accounts, Major John was a hands-on in all of his careers, working physically demanding jobs that reflected his blue-collar lifestyle. And luckily, his job allowed his wife Kaylee to stay home with their three children. At the time of our story, all was well with the Kaler family. They were happy, healthy, they had stability, and they lived in a good home at 515B Brown Avenue.
Murder In America
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Did you snap when you crept around casing the apartments looking for your victims prior to the incident? Did you snap when you confronted them and continuously pulled the trigger until both magazines were empty? You said you were protecting your children. Let me ask you who's protecting them now. All you did was traumatize them.
Murder In America
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They will spend the rest of their lives knowing their father is nothing more than a two-bit killer. They may even be blaming themselves for this wicked event. let alone the peer pressure they'll have to contend with as they grow. What a man you are. Not only did you destroy my family, but yours as well."
Murder In America
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On March 25, 2024, Major John Kaler was escorted into a packed courtroom in Wallace, Idaho. As Shoshone County District Court Judge Barbara Duggan handed down her sentence, Major John stared ahead, emotionless. Ultimately, he received the maximum penalty for his actions, life in prison without the possibility of parole. The judge told him, The event is a particularly heinous event.
Murder In America
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You've taken four individuals from this community based on your decision." After handing down the sentence, friends and family members were allowed to speak to Major John directly and let him know that his decision that evening changed their lives forever. Ken Aguadipi's mother, Jerry Silva, said, We lost three generations. I haven't seen, heard, or touched my kids in nine months. I can't sleep.
Murder In America
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Devin and Aiken's grandfather, David Silva, told Judge Duggan, He killed an entire branch of our family tree. Never any great-grandchildren to watch grow up. I lost my best friend, referring to Aiken. He spent hundreds of hours volunteering throughout the community. An entire beautiful family, taken by one person.
Murder In America
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As for Major John Kaler, he refused to say anything and responded, no thank you, when Judge Duggan asked if he wanted to address the court. As Major John was escorted out of the courtroom, Kaley broke down crying.
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Now, this home was actually a duplex and they lived on the upper level, but it was perfect for them. There were two bedrooms, one bathroom, and most importantly, a nice backyard where the kids could run and play. And for years, the Kaler family called this place home.
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This week, we will be making a donation to Faces of Hope, a nonprofit organization based in Boise, Idaho, that is dedicated to supporting victims of violence and abuse. They offer a 24-7 crisis line, counseling, legal help, and basic necessities for people affected by domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse, elder abuse, human trafficking, and stalking.
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Hey everybody, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. This was an insanely tragic story and just hard to believe all around. It's one of those stories that I know, at least for Courtney and I, definitely stuck with us after we first learned about what exactly had happened here. It's just horrible.
Murder In America
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However way you look at this entire equation, it's just horrible. But regardless, thank you everybody for tuning into the show this week. If you want to help support Murder in America, please consider joining us on Patreon. On our Patreon, you can get early ad-free access to all of our shows. So if you hate the ads, you can go on Patreon and get the episodes completely ad-free.
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EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
and for higher tiers we actually have bonus content bonus episodes of the show these are full-length bonus episodes of murder in america with both courtney and i the sound design the same scripts the same length so if you like the show and you've never signed up for patreon and you want to listen to more murder in america maybe you're out of episodes definitely consider joining our patreon and immediately getting access to that entire library of bonus content
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there's over 100 120 i believe episodes on there that you can listen to right now if you sign up also please do not forget to leave us a five star review on apple podcasts or spotify or wherever you listen to this show and be sure to follow us on instagram at murder in america to see photos from every single case that we cover anyways y'all thank you so much for joining us this week courtney and i will be back next week with another story
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sadly here in america we are never going to run out of stories to talk about and discuss and raise awareness around but regardless have a great rest your week slash weekend and i'll catch you on the next one
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Now, Devin Smith was born in 2005, so in 2023, he was 18 years old, and he had just graduated from Kellogg High School in late May. According to his family, he had planned to become a hoistman. As for his younger brother, Aiken, he was about to enter his senior year at Kellogg High.
Murder In America
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According to friends, Aiken had big dreams of joining the military after high school and was a member of the Junior ROTC. He volunteered at the Wallace Elks and spent the previous Memorial Day traveling with his ROTC group to local cemeteries to honor fallen soldiers with a 21-gun salute. He also enjoyed carrying the colors in Veterans Day parades.
Murder In America
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In a social media post in 2022, Aiken wrote, "...received two national-level awards from the MCJROTC program. Joining the program is one of the best decisions I have ever made, and I wouldn't change it for anything."
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Together, their family enjoyed spending time outdoors, mountain biking through the Kellogg Trails, hitting the ski slope on Kellogg Mountain, camping, hiking, and picking huckleberries. Being avid outdoorsmen, the family always rode their mountain bikes together every Sunday. It was their ritual.
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Recently, their grandfather, Kenneth, had purchased a 1957 Jeep that needed a lot of work, so he and Akin had spent some quality time together restoring it. When it was finished, Kenneth planned on giving his grandson the Jeep as a gift for all of his hard work.
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Now, following this, the Kaler family did call the Shoshone County Sheriff's Department to report what happened. And soon enough, Officer William Eddy was dispatched to the scene. According to him, when he pulled up to the duplex, he spoke with Major John Kaler, who was visibly angry.
Murder In America
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Major John even told the officer that the only reason he had not taken care of Devin himself was because he was recovering from shoulder surgery. However, he stated that if it happened again, he would handle it, and somebody's going to get hurt. The Kalers also called the landlord to make sure they were aware of the situation, but as you can imagine, this was very traumatic for them.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
The little girl who saw Devin that day was just 11 years old, and that's something no 11-year-old girl should ever have to witness. But on top of that, they no longer felt safe within their own home. For years, Kaylee and Major John would let their kids run around in the backyard without a care in the world. They knew that it was a safe space for them to be kids, but not anymore.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
So, soon after this happened, Kaylee Kaler decided to post about it on Facebook. The post read as follows.
Murder In America
EP. 199: IDAHO - The Man Who Killed His Neighbor's Family: The Majorjon Kaylor Murders
And apparently, Devin Smith had a sordid history of being inappropriate, at least according to some residents in Kellogg. After Kaylee posted her story, one resident chimed in and responded with this.
Murder In America
EP. 203: COLORADO - The “Dark Knight Rises” Movie Theater Shooting (PT. 1)
All right, our next speaker is James Helm.
Murder In America
EP. 203: COLORADO - The “Dark Knight Rises” Movie Theater Shooting (PT. 1)
Well, he did indeed seem very nervous. He was very quiet. Looked like your average grad student, jeans or khakis and just sort of nondescript T-shirt or button-down.
Murder In America
EP. 203: COLORADO - The “Dark Knight Rises” Movie Theater Shooting (PT. 1)
A mental health hold and somebody who's has homicidal thoughts. To qualify for a mental health hold, they need to have a couple of things. And one is evidence that it's not just a thought, but they have a plan. There's moving towards action on those thoughts. And then the second thing is there has to be a specific target. And he all along had denied both of those.
Murder In America
EP. 203: COLORADO - The “Dark Knight Rises” Movie Theater Shooting (PT. 1)
No. What did you do? So I... still had significant concerns about his homicidal thoughts and potential dangerousness. So I took some additional steps. Tell us about them. So the first thing I did, other than discussing this with Dr. Feinstein at the end of the session, was I called what's known as our beta team.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Nach dem Ausflug wurde Kenneth vollzeit an seinem Vaters Konkret-Business gearbeitet. Er liebte nicht den Job, aber er liebte den Geld, den es mitgebracht hat. Nun, es war auch an dieser Zeit, als seine Mutter Addie ihm ein neues Motorrad geschenkt hat. und seine Klassenleute sagten, dass sie ihn auf den Backcountry-Rädern des Blackland Prairies sehen würden.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und jetzt, als er nicht in der Schule war und Geld selbst verdient hatte, hatte er ein bisschen mehr Freiheit. Kenneth hat angefangen, Alkohol zu trinken und mehr Zeit mit seinem Bruder Lonnie zu verbringen, was zum Ende ein Rezept für einen Desaster sein würde. Für Kenneths gesamte Leben hat er sich auf seinen älteren Bruder angeschaut.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und manche haben sogar gesagt, dass Lonnies Jugendlosigkeit ihn inspirierte. Nun, es gibt keine Wahrheit, ob das nächste Teil wahr ist, oder ob Kenneth nur Loni beeindrucken wollte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber im Sommer 1964, als Kenneth 18 Jahre alt war, brachte er seinem Bruder, dass er einmal einen Klassenlehrer verabschiedet hatte, was nicht sehr weitgehend klingt, je nachdem, welche Taten er später verurteilen würde.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Once Kenneth dropped out of school, he would spend nearly the entire year of 1964 robbing businesses around their area. But it would finally catch up to him. Now, we weren't able to figure out how the police linked him to these robberies, but in late January of 1965, they finally had enough evidence to place him under arrest. And he was wanted in three different counties.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
On January 22nd, Kenneth was convicted of eight counts of burglary in Bell County. Dann wurde er am 29. Januar von zwei Verbrechungen in Falls County verurteilt. Und am 3. Februar wurde er von vier Verbrechungen in Milam County verurteilt. Insgesamt wurde Kenneth von 14 Verbrechungen in Verbrechung verurteilt und wurde schließlich 52 Jahre im Gefängnis verurteilt. Am 10.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
März 1965 wurde Kenneth von der Ferguson-Unit des Texas Department of Criminal Justice vertreten.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Roy war ein beeindruckender junger Mann. Er hatte eine niedrige IQ. Er lebte mit seiner Mutter in Marlin und er war bekannt, als ein ruhiger Junge, der nie in Probleme kam. Kenneth, der direkt aus dem Gefängnis war, wusste, dass er ein leichtes Ziel sein würde. Und er war es. Für Roys ganze Leben war er ein Art Unterhund. Jemand, dem die Leute nicht aufmerksam waren.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
So when Kenneth took an interest in becoming friends, Roy thought it would be cool to be hanging out with someone who took risks and got into trouble. According to Texas Monthly, Roy was absolutely mesmerized by Kenneth's wild stories of sadistic sex, something he referred to as sexcapades.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
In einem Fall, während die beiden am Haus Roy's Mütter waren, begann Kenneth die Geschichte, wie er diese Frau verabschiedet hat. Er hat Roy erzählt, dass er die Frau auf den Boden gepinnt hat und eine große Tüte deep heat in ihre Vagina gespürt hat. Deep heat ist im Grunde eine topische Creme, die man auf der Haut verwendet, um Muskelschmerzen zu lösen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Es sollte definitiv nicht auf jemanden privaten Teilen oder in jemanden Vagina gehen. Wenn diese Geschichte wahr war, dann wäre diese Frau klar in unglaublich viel Schmerz. Aber als Kenneth die Geschichte erzählte, war er begeistert. Er liebte es klar, Frauen zu töten. Er hat auch Roy über viele andere Rape erzählt, die er verurteilt hat.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber an diesem Punkt wurde er nicht von Rape verurteilt, also gibt es keinen echten Rekord davon, aber er liebte es, darüber zu sprachen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
So, if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here... Share us on your Instagram story. Shout us out on X. Post one of our shows on your Facebook. And let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Eher die Nacht, war 16-jähriger Luis Sullivan bereit für eine Abendzeit mit seinem Freund, 17-jährigem Robert Brand, und seinem Cousin, 15-jährigem Marcus Dunham, der aus Kalifornien besucht war. Es war ein typischer heißer Sommerabend in der kleinen Texas-Town von Everman. Und die drei Jüngeren waren auf die nächste Nacht aufgeregt. Nun, in erster Linie war es ein Doppelabend.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Luises Freund Ronda war zu Hause mit Marcus, aber am letzten Moment wurde sie abgeholt. A decision that likely saved her life. But even without Rhonda, the three teens were determined to have a fun night out. Now, at around 6.30 that night, Robert and Marcus got into the 1955 Ford Fairlane and made their way over to Luisa's house to pick her up. From there, they drove to a drive-in movie.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
But once it was over, they noticed they still had a little time to kill before curfew. So that's when they decided to drive to the secluded baseball field next to the high school. This was something teenagers did around Everman. It was the type of town where everyone knew each other. It was a small, rural community that consisted of honest, working class people.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
And these kids had their whole lives ahead of them. Louise war bereit, ihr Juniorenjahr an Evermann High School zu starten. Sie arbeitete wirklich hart, um gute Gräts zu bekommen. Sie spielte Basketball und arbeitete im Krankenhaus der 1. Baptistischen Kirche. Ein paar Monate vor dieser Nacht, im Juni 1966, hatte Louise Robert Brand von der nahen Stadt von Alvarado getroffen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Im Sommer spielten die beiden viel Zeit zusammen. Sie wurden von ihren Verliebten als wirklich gute Kinder beschrieben. Robert Brandt war hübsch, ausländisch und liebte absolut Musik.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Er hat verschiedene seltsame Jobs gearbeitet, um genug Geld zu verdienen, um eine Gitarre zu kaufen, und nachdem er das gemacht hat, hat er mit einem Gruppe von Jungs zusammengebracht, die Teenage-Clubs in Alvarado gespielt haben. Für Markus Dunham waren er und sein älterer Cousin Robert sehr nahe. Markus liebte auch Musik und spielte die Drüsen. Als er mit Robert zusammengekommen ist,
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
The boys enjoyed playing their instruments and sometimes would go hunting in the woods. Marcus had big dreams of joining the military after high school and wanted to work as a machinist. Now, that summer, Marcus had traveled from California and had been spending time with his grandmother in Fort Worth. And that weekend he decided to make the trip to Everman to have a fun night.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
However, no one could have known that their innocent weekend would quickly turn bloody and violent. As they sat at the baseball fields, Luis, Robert und Marcus lachen und hatten gute Gespräche. An einem Punkt hat Luis sogar eine Maske aus ihrer Tasche herausgezogen und mit ihr den Namen auf dem Hinterglas geschrieben. Endlich sind sie aus dem Fahrzeug gegangen und haben den frischen Atem genossen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Sie hätten alle bald nach Hause gehen müssen, und sie haben sich die letzten paar Minuten ihres Tages zusammengezockt. Die drei hatten keinen Grund, zu glauben, dass sie in Gefahr waren. Jedoch, bald genug, würden sie die Wege mit purem Schicksal überschreiten.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Rosebud, Texas ist eine kleine, rührende Farmingstadt in Falls County. Sie befindet sich zwischen den großen Städten von Austin und Waco. Am Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts begannen viele Menschen, in Rosebud, Texas zu gehen, um bessere Möglichkeiten zu finden.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kenneth hat mich angeschaut und gesagt, sie haben mich angeschaut. Ich werde sie töten. Wir haben keine Anwesenden. Ich werde sie entfernen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kennt für seine reiche schwarze Landfläche, kamen Familien hierher und bauten Land, damit sie Kotten und Gräne färben konnten, was in den 1920er-Jahren eine erfolgreiche Arbeit war. Damals war die Stadt voll mit Kotten-Ginsen, Kotten-Seed-Maschinen und der Aransas Pass-Railway. Aber dann kam die große Depression und die Stadt verletzte sich.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Warning! This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Viele Menschen mussten nach oben gehen und eine andere Wohnung finden. Aber für die Menschen, die da waren, fühlten sie eine tiefe Verbindung zu Rosebud, Texas. Das war eine Wohnung. Viele haben ihre Familien dort für Jahrhunderte gehalten. In Central Texas, Rosebud, war die Art der Gemeinschaft, in der jeder sich kennt.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Während der Fahrt nach Hause nach Rosebud, hat Kenneth Roy gesagt, dass er seine Augen schlürft über das, was an der Nacht passiert ist. Wenn du jemandem erzählst, werden sie uns in die elektrische Schnauze legen, sagte er.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Nachdem er ein bisschen Distanz zwischen ihnen und der Krimi-Szene gelegt hat, hat Kenneth auch einige Beweise aus dem Fenster gelegt, insbesondere die fehlenden Schellkasten und den gebrochenen Brunnen, den er benutzt hat, um Louise zu verletzen. Irgendwann während der Fahrt sind sie auch rausgekommen und haben ein kleines Loch in den Boden gelegt, wo sie Robert und Marcus' Karten verletzt haben.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Mit einer Bevölkerung, die nie mehr als 2.000 Besitzer waren, ging das Leben in Rosebud auf eine langsamere Art und Weise. Die Leute gingen zusammen an der Kirche jeden Sonntag, und Main Street war verbunden mit Familienunternehmen. Jemand, der in die Stadt eingegangen wurde, wurde mit einem großen Zeichen gegrüßt, das schrieb, Rosebud, wir nennen es Zuhause.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Jetzt haben sie es endlich zurück nach Rosebud gemacht und Kenneth hat die Nacht mit Roy in Roys Mütters Zuhause geblieben. Dann am nächsten Morgen, am Sonntag, August 7, 1966, wucherten Kenneth und Roy früh auf und nahmen den Dodge zu einer nahen Autowäsche.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Beide Männer haben den Innenraum und den Außenraum des Autos gescrubbt, um die Evidenz zu entfernen, die sie dem Verbrechen beizutragen könnte. Während ihrer Kleidung fand Kenneth eine lange braune Haare, die zu Louise gehörte. Siehst du das, Roy? Er sagte. Das ist das, was uns in die Gefängnis bringen könnte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Roy würde später sagen, dass er wirklich überrascht war, was die Nacht vorher passiert ist. Die Events haben einfach nur in seinem Kopf gespielt, und er war extrem paranoid. Aber Kenneth war genau das Gleiche. Er hatte keinen Wunsch darüber, was passiert ist. Ja, er war nervös, dass er getroffen wird. But the fact that he took the lives of three teenagers didn't even seem to phase him.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
In fact, that very next night, Kenneth already had another date lined up. Wenn Sie Mörder in Amerika lieben, Sie lieben Geheimnisse, Sie lieben echten Kram, Sie lieben Mördergeschichten und das Ungewohnte, dann habe ich ein neues Show für Sie. Es heißt The Conspiracy Files und es wird von mir, Colin Brown, von Mörder in Amerika und The Paranormal Files gehostet.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Auf The Conspiracy Files überwachen wir alles von bizarren Toden bis zu freaken Paranormal-Events. Pädophilie-Ringe, Regierungs-Korruption, Rituals-Sacrifice. Kein Thema ist auf diesem Show unabhängig. Alles, was wir über die Verschwörungstheorien reden, wird mit Fakten gespeichert.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Ich veröffentliche Reference-Daten mit jedem einzelnen Episode, den wir machen, damit ihr wisst, dass alles, worüber wir reden, veröffentlicht wurde und real ist. Es ist ein völlig anderer Art von Show, als alles andere, was ihr je gesehen habt über Verschwörungstheorien. anstatt ein paar Konjunkturen und Theorien.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Wir präsentieren euch Menschen mit Fakten, erzählen euch die Geschichte, gehen euch durch die Geschichte, so detailliert wie wir es mit Mörder in Amerika tun. Und dann lassen wir den Zuhörer entscheiden, was sie denken. Jedenfalls sollten Sie es definitiv hören. Es heißt The Conspiracy Files. Die Links sind in der Beschreibung dieses Shows.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und Sie können es auf Apple Podcasts, Spotify oder wo auch immer Sie Ihre Podcasts bekommen. Und jetzt gehen wir zurück zu unserer Geschichte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und wenn du durch die Stadt gedreht wärst, würdest du sehen, dass fast jeder einen Rosebusch in ihrem Vordergrund hatte. Es war fast ein Zeichen, dass wir eins sind hier. Wir stecken zusammen. Wir schauen uns einander an. Aber unfassbar, würde Rosebuds Reputation für immer von einem ehemaligen Besitzer, der in diesem Bereich gewachsen ist, verblüfft werden. Und sein Name war Kenneth Allen McDuff.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Als die Behörden auf die Krimi-Szene zurückgingen, sagte Tarrant County Sheriff Lon Evans später, dass es wie eine Exekution aussah, was nicht viel Sinn machte. Diese drei Teenager waren gute Kinder. Sie hatten keine Feinde. Also wer hätte das zu ihnen getan?
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Während sie versucht haben, es herauszufinden, hat ein anderer Offizier seinen Weg zu Roberts Zuhause gemacht, um seiner Familie die schreckliche Nachricht zu erzählen. Hier ist Roberts Schwester Fran, die sich an diesen Moment erinnert.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Worte wurden schnell in der Stadt verbreitet, dass diese beiden Jünger verurteilt worden sind, exekutierter Art, in den Trunk ihres eigenen Autos. Bob Schieffer, ein Reporter auf der Krimiszene an dem Tag, sagte später dem echten Krimi-Reporter Robert Riggs, Es hat wirklich Leute verärgert. Es hat die Gemeinschaft wirklich verärgert.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Ich erinnere mich noch daran, weil ich glaube, es war das Schlimmste, was ich jemals gesehen habe. Ich sah diese Körper. Und wenn du auf der Polizeiführung bist, siehst du viele Töte, aber ich habe nie etwas gesehen, das der Ruhe des Macduffs ausmacht. Und ich hoffe, dass ich es nie wieder sehe. Diese Mörder zerstörten schnell den Sinn der Sicherheit dieser Stadt.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und noch mehr bedrohlich war, dass Louise Sullivan noch nicht weg war. Nach der Erfindung von Robert und Marcus kam die ganze Stadt zusammen, um die 16-jährige Mädchen zu finden, insbesondere 250 Volunteure.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Nach seinem Vertrauen begannen die Bewerber, Kenneth Macduff zu suchen. Aber in der Zwischenzeit brauchten sie Roys Hilfe, um Louise zu beurteilen. Bis dahin sah es so aus, als ob sie überall nachgefragt hätten. Sie hatten sogar Dive-Teams und Helikopter, die über die Oberfläche fliegen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber als sie Roy in die Gegend gebracht haben, hatte er eine schwierige Zeit, sich daran zu erinnern, wo sie ihn genommen haben. However, he did remember a sign that he kept seeing along the drive. He said it read Burleson. Eventually, authorities asked Roy to draw what he remembered about the location. And surprisingly, this seemed to have worked.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
When Roy handed them the drawing, the authorities decided to start looking in the northern area of Johnson County near the small town of Egan. Roy was taken to the location and he immediately recognized it. He ended up jumping over the fence and told the search team, this looks like it.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber auch nach seinem Verabschiedungskampf hat Kenneth MacDuff keine Enttäuschung gesehen. In Wahrheit hat er sich eher über die Schlagzeilen in seinem Auto überrascht, als über die Mörder. Nun, wie wir schon erwähnten, hat Kenneths Angehöriger, Roy Dale Green, sofort zu allem, was geschehen ist, verabschiedet. Aber Kenneth war nicht seine Vorhersage.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Bob Schieffer würde später sagen, Was interessant an diesen beiden war, war, wie völlig anders sie waren. Macduff wollte niemandem über irgendwas erzählen. Er würde dir keine Details geben. Er würde nicht sogar erinnern, dass er da war. Green, auf der anderen Seite, konnte es nicht einhalten. Er war derjenige, der sich leicht verletzt hatte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Er war der Junge in der Hochschule, der, wenn alle anderen etwas machen wollten, ging. Es sah nie zu sein, dass es seine Idee war. Und offensichtlich war er völlig traurig von Macduff. Aber mit Roy's Verzeihung hatten die Behörden alles, was sie brauchten. Am 9. August 1966 war Kenneth Macduff zurück im Gefängnis für die brutalen Mörder von Robert, Marcus und Luis.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und wenn Sie sich erinnern, war er tatsächlich bereits im Gefängnis für die Mörder, die er 1964 verurteilt hat. Also, nach seinem Angriff, hat das Staat Texas sein Gefängnis überwiesen. Wieder einmal konnte Polizist Bob Sullivan die Polizistinnen und Polizisten während ihres Transfers von Kenneth Macduff nach Fort Worth unterstützen. Und hier ist, was er Robert Riggs gesagt hat.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kenneth McDuff wurde bei der Huntsville-Unit bei der Texas Department of Criminal Justice gehalten. Aber als er vor dem Trial erwartete, hat er niemandem über die Mörder gesprochen. McDuff war wütend, dass er im Gefängnis war. Der Sheriff sagte, dass er den Tag nach seinem Anruf sogar bei McDuffs Gefängniszelle ging und an ihn schrie. Geh' in die Hölle!
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Nun, interessanterweise, hat sich in dieser Zeit eine große Tragödie auf den Staat Texas getroffen. Es war die University of Texas at Austin Mass-Shoot, eine Geschichte, die wir in Episoden 94 und 95 von Mord in Amerika besprochen haben. Das Schutzen geschah ca. eine Woche bevor die Broomstick-Mörder.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und überraschend, während er im Gefängnis war, hat Kenneth McDuff einen Kommentar gemacht, wie der Schütze Charles Whitman verrückt war.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber ich sagte, hör einfach nicht zu. Die Jury, die neun Männer und drei Frauen beteiligt war, hörte emotionale Geschichten von Robert Brands Vater und Louis Sullivans Mutter. Jedoch wollte jeder von Roy Greene hören. Am 9. November 1966 erhielt Roy den Stand und berichtete die Events, die am 6. August stattfanden. Roy war offensichtlich erschrocken auf dem Stand.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Seine Sprache war manchmal unhörbar und er schlug mit Nervosität. Als die Verteidigung ihn gefragt hat, warum er nicht nur in Kenneths Dodge fährt, anstatt ihn zu folgen, antwortete er, Ich, ich, ich weiß es nicht. Jeder in der Stadthalle konnte sehen, dass Roy Angst hatte. Es war auch klar, dass er eine sehr niedrige IQ hatte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber zu jeder Überraschung, hat jemand anderes den Stand auf November 13. Kenneth McDuff. Er hat verurteilt, dass er an der Nacht der Mörder in einem gebrannten Gebäude in Everman ausgeliefert wurde. Er hat Roy als den wütenden Blödsinn beschrieben, der die Mörder geplant hatte. Er hat gesagt, Roy war sehr wütend, weil er keine Beziehung hatte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Er wollte, dass ich irgendwo warten würde, während er das Auto benutzt hat. Wir haben darüber gesprochen. Er war wirklich wütend. Ich war nur müde und wollte nach Hause und nach Bett gehen. Ich saß einfach neben einem Wallen und schlief. Nun, als für den Brunnenstiel, sagte Kenneth, dass Roy es gerne mitnehmen würde, weil er in der Vergangenheit Probleme mit Verbrechern hatte.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Laut Kenneth war der Brunnenstiel Roys gewöhnliche Waffe für Selbstverdienung.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
As for Roy Dale Green, he also pleaded guilty to the murders, but he was only sentenced to 25 years in prison, since it was clear he was not the mastermind. Following this, Roy was taken to the Tarrant County Jail, where he really struggled. Because he was labeled a snitch, other prisoners tormented him. After several years of this, he was actually transferred to the Rusk State Mental Hospital.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Roy hatte gesagt, dass er faszinierend war und Stimmen hörte. Und er würde letztendlich am Rusk-Stadt-Hospital bleiben, bis er in 1979 verurteilt wurde. Roy Del Green hat nur 13 Jahre für seine Rolle in den Broomstick-Mördern gesorgt. Laut einem Artikel in Texas Monthly, das 1992 veröffentlicht wurde, nachdem er veröffentlicht wurde, ging Roy zurück zu seiner Heimatstadt Marlin, Texas.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Sheriff Larry Pamplin stated, he stays out at the old family home and spends most of the day in his sister's beer joint, the town door. To say he's messed up is a real understatement.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Hey, everybody. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Murder in America. This is a story that Courtney suggested that I had never heard, but upon researching this whole thing, I mean, wow, this whole story is just unbelievable. And next week, the details that we're going to share with you are truly mind-blowing and just incomprehensible.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
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Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Wenn ihr die Ads nicht möchtet, dann ist Patreon definitiv eine gute Wahl für euch. Ihr könnt auch auf höhere Töne signen, um Bonus-Initiativen zu bekommen, wenn ihr wirklich unterstützen möchtet. Courtney und ich kreieren volle Länge Bonus-Episode des Shows.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Wenn du noch nicht eingeladen hast, gibt es eine Bibliothek von über 100 dieser Bonus-Episode, die du sofort hören kannst, wenn du ein Patron wirst. Und danke an alle, die uns bereits auf Patreon eingeladen haben. Wir haben eine unglaubliche, unglaubliche Gemeinschaft da. Sei sicher, uns auf Instagram zu folgen, zu sehen, Fotos von jedem einzelnen Fall, den wir hier auf dem Show beobachten.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
And also don't forget to leave us a good review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Those reviews really help and we love reading them. But anyways, y'all, thank you so much for listening this week. We do hope you enjoyed. And yeah, have a great weekend and I'll see y'all in the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
People in town would later say that it was obvious the McDuff family was very well off. They always had plenty of money to buy new things, and they were always wearing fresh new clothing. On paper, they appeared to be the perfect all-American family. They worked hard for their money, they had no criminal records, and they regularly attended the Assembly of God church.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
But anyone who really got to know the family immediately noticed that something was off about them. Some described them as odd and standoffish. According to neighbors of the McDuff family, Addie, the matriarch, ran the show.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kenneth und sein älterer Bruder Lonnie waren große Troublemaker in Rosebud. In den frühen 1950ern hat Lonnie sich als Ruff-Tuff Lonnie McDuff genannt. Jedoch hatte er einen gewissen Sprachunfall und als er sich mit seinem Namen genannt hat, wurde er als Wuff-Tuff-Wonnie McDuff genannt. Während er an der Rosebud High School war, hat Lonnie eine Knife auf den Schulprinzip D.L.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Mayo gedrückt und in der Rückkehr hat der Prinzip ihn auf den Stuhl gedrückt. Nun, D.L. Mayo war ein sehr striktes Prinzip. Er war ein Weltkriegs-Veteran, der nichts gemacht hat. In Wahrheit wurde er oft als Iron Man genannt. Nun, als Lonnie den Knopf an ihm aufgenommen hat, musste D.L. Mayo nach Hause und berichten, was passiert ist.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Aber natürlich blamierte Addie den Prinzip, trotz dessen, dass ihr Sohn die Waffe holen musste. Egal, was jemand gesagt hat, Lonnie und Kenneth waren verletzt. Wenn jemand in der Schule versuchte, die Jungs verurteilt oder verurteilt zu lassen, war Addy schnell bereit, sich aufzunehmen und jedem ein Hörsaal zu geben. Und bald beginnte Kenneth, in den Fußstrichen seines Verletztenbruders zu folgen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Rosebud High School Principal D.L. Mayo would later say that Kenneth did not get along with students, teachers or anyone. He would lie, steal and destroy property of others. He was in some form of trouble every few days. He had trouble in the community for reckless driving and stealing.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
His family would seldom believe he did anything wrong and were always angry with school officials and local police for punishing him. Dieser junge Mann hatte den ganzen Welt angestrengt, seitdem er in der vierten oder fünften Klasse war. Seine Mutter war neurotisch und unbedeutend. Doch der Vater und die Mutter haben gearbeitet, Kenneth mit all seinen Bedürfnissen zu unterstützen.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kenneth hatte die normalen Gefühle, so viel wie ein normaler Junge in dieser Gemeinschaft.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Kenneth war ihr goldenes Kind, das mit allem weggegangen ist. Laut einem Familienmitglied hat Kenneth sogar mit seinem jüngsten Sohn für Jahre weggegangen. J.A. und Addie haben sich einfach nur mit einem blinden Auge auf das, was Kenneth gemacht hat, gewechselt. Im Grunde genommen waren sie wirklich stolz auf ihn.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Einen Sommer lang hat Kenneth die Bäume für ihre älteren Nachbarn gestartet und Addie hat als ob er den Mond geschlagen hätte. Sie hat gehofft, dass Kenneth von allen geliebt wurde und dass er so ein armer Arbeiter war. Aber natürlich hat niemand von ihr geglaubt. Den Leuten, die mit Kenneth auf den Weg gefahren sind, wussten sie, dass es etwas Dunkeles in ihm gab.
Murder In America
EP. 194: TEXAS - The BROOMSTICK MURDERS: Serial Killer Kenneth McDuff’s Dark Beginning
Und diese Dunkelheit sah sich nur schlimmer aus, als er älter wurde.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Soon after the divorce, Kathy prided herself in being an important member of the feminist movement and for becoming a modern, self-reliant woman. Her obituary described her as, "...at once bold, colorful, simple, direct, and easy. A quintessentially modern California individual, living life on her own terms and loving her life with many friends and extended family."
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
now eventually her daughter would grow and move out she left home to attend georgetown and from there miss kathy had a desire to help other young artists in fact she often opened her doors to actors writers singers and directors welcoming them to rent her rooms and live in a supportive creative environment with a hollywood mom and if you're trying to break into hollywood you need a hollywood mom
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
This kind of supportive environment is what drew Johnny Lewis to the writer's villa. After speaking with Miss Kathy, he was promptly offered one of the suites, known as the Red Room. But rent wasn't cheap, hovering anywhere between $1650 and $3,000 a month for one bedroom with a private bathroom, sitting room, and access to the rest of the home.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
For perspective, at the time, the average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in LA was about $1,200. Yet, the writer's villa offered things nowhere else seemed to. For Johnny and many others, that was priceless. So, he moved in. And at first, it seemed to be working out for him. His friend Bo Garrett told LA Mag, I remember all the nice things he said about Miss Kathy.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
But interestingly, he wouldn't stay very long. He would end up moving later that year, not because of any disagreements or unhappiness. He left because he discovered that his girlfriend was pregnant.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
late 2010 johnny traveled to hagerstown maryland a historic town on the panhandle of virginia right near the border of west virginia he was there to star in a horror movie directed by eduardo sanchez the same guy who wrote directed and edited the wildly popular and groundbreaking movie the blair witch project in 1999 the movie titled lovely molly revolves around johnny's wife
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
played by Gretchen Lodge, who's corrupted by a demon and tormented by the memory of an assault committed against her when she was a child. The movie is psychologically twisted, dark, and truly fits the label of a horror film. Filming took place over 21 days, during which time the crew grew incredibly close.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Johnny and Gretchen seemed to have even begun dating during this time or soon after filming wrapped. which makes sense when you look at the scenes they were filming. When you have a twisted horror film about lovers, every scene is juxtaposed with the next.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
It ends up being a mix of loving, sensual, and connected scenes, clashing against scary, vulnerable, and intense scenes where actors are forced to truly bear it all, both emotionally and physically. In many scenes, Gretchen, who had never acted in a feature-length film before, had to be naked, covered in blood, screaming, and acting as though she was possessed.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In one scene, she had to bite off Johnny's lip. And, spoiler alert, in the end, Johnny's character is brutally killed with a blow to the head.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program, so definitely If you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook, and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all. But let's get back to the story. If Johnny was tested for a concussion, which is just a mild form of a traumatic brain injury, doctors likely would have looked at his eye movement, reflexes, and memory recall to diagnose him.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
If all of these appeared normal, doctors could have determined that he didn't have any noticeable or impactful head injury. According to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes, some traumatic brain injuries are primary, meaning that the damage is immediate and noticeable.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Others can be secondary, which means they occur over the course of hours, days, or weeks after the initial impact. Those who knew Johnny suggest that he was suffering from a secondary traumatic brain injury. And when you look at the months that immediately followed the crash, it's easy to see why.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In December of 2011, two months after the crash, Johnny was attending an acting class that he frequented. According to his close friend, Jonathan Tucker, Johnny was using a strange British accent for the entirety of the class. His friend later told LA Mag, I asked him about it because I was confused, but he shrugged it off.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Jonathan had known him for several years, and according to him, this kind of behavior was incredibly unusual.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
From the very beginning, it seems that Johnny Lewis was destined for the spotlight. Born Jonathan Kendrick Lewis in the San Fernando Valley on October 29, 1983, he was the son of Devona and Michael Lewis, who had both moved to Los Angeles to follow their own dreams. His father, Michael, had journeyed to the City of Angels to work as a playwright, screenwriter, and counselor.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
After 27 years of displaying no violence whatsoever and committing no crimes, Johnny was suddenly behind bars after what his family and friends described as an uncharacteristically violent act. Three days later, he allegedly turned that violence on himself by attempting to jump from the second story level at the jail.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
This, along with his repeated attempts to bash his head against the concrete wall of his cell, resulted in him being transferred to a psychiatric ward on a 72-hour hold. In California, this is referred to as a 5150. Now, when his 72 hours in the ward was up, his father bailed him out.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Once more, his parents brought him to their condo in Northridge to monitor him, but this time, things were undeniably worse. His older sister Anna told L.A. Mag, "...he looked like a wounded, broken animal." He repeatedly disabled the fuse box to the condo in order to prevent his parents from turning the lights on and refused to let anyone touch him or get near him.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
For a moment, just imagine that. Less than a year prior, Johnny had been sitting in a cafe in Berlin working on a novel he wanted to write. Smiling and well-groomed, he made this video for a loved one.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
I don't know about you guys, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping my money too. After years of overpaying for wireless, I finally got fed up from crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run and switched to Mint Mobile.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
It's crazy how much these big carriers like to charge you for every little thing. It's like clockwork. When it's time to pay my wireless bill, I'm like, oh my god. God, this is crazy you're charging me for this and that, but not with Mint Mobile.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
You can say bye-bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw-dropping monthly bills, and unexpected overages because Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all of your existing contacts. So it's incredibly easy and painless to switch over. And I think it's about time to ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for just 15 bucks a month. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash america. That's mintmobile.com slash america. Upfront payment of $45 for 3-month 5GB plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. And now, let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Devona, who had grown up on a farm in a town of just 60 people in Alberta, Canada, was an English and drama teacher. Like thousands of dreamers before them, they settled down and bought a house in what locals refer to as the Valley, putting them a stone's throw away from the glitz and glamour of the world-famous studios.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
So, sure, Johnny was out of jail twice, but that didn't stop the court dates from coming, nor from his mental health deteriorating even more. In May, his friend Jonathan Tucker picked him up to take him to one of his court hearings. Remember, this is the same friend that had noticed Johnny speaking in a strange accent, months prior in their acting class.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Within seconds of having Johnny in his car, it was clear how much worse things had gotten. He told LA Mag, It was another person completely. He had a look I have only seen with disturbed veterans of war. His memory was scattered. He vacillated between lucid conversation and incoherence. It was clear to his family, friends, and professionals that Johnny needed help.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
But of course, there was another thing that drew them to Los Angeles, their ties to Scientology. But we'll get into that a little bit later.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
On May 17, 2012, Johnny's probation officer wrote as follows in his official report, The defendant suffers from some form of chemical dependency, mental health issue, and a lack of permanent housing. Given this, Lewis will continue to be a threat to any community he may reside. And yet, little was done.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
This brings us to one of the most challenging parts of this story, one that has received a lot of attention in the media. Johnny's parents were Scientologists. Not just Scientologists, though. They were top-level Scientologists. They were what is referred to as Operating Thetan Level 8, which is the highest level of spiritual freedom in the Scientology Church.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Apparently, this level can only be acquired by taking a trip on the Freewinds, a Scientology cruise ship. Now, there have been some serious claims of abuse and kidnapping taking place on the Freewind, but we'll save that for a Conspiracy Files episode.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
However, it's widely known that Scientology as a religion denounces psychiatric problems and disapproves of mental health and medication being used at all. To people living a secular life, it's probably hard to imagine how anyone could be manipulated into thinking that way. However, a look at the Scientology website shows what kind of tactics are being used to sway their members.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Consider this section, straight from their website under a page labeled, Why is Scientology Opposed to Psychiatric Abuses? The Scientology objection to psychiatry does not stem from any desire to deny the insane treatment. Rather, the Church objects to the mistreatment of the insane, which is a psychohistorical hallmark.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Nor do Scientologists believe people should be stigmatized with labels and treated with cures that have no basis in science and are brutal in the extreme. Through its long and tragic history, psychiatry has invented numerous cures which eventually proved destructive in the extreme. In the 18th and 19th centuries, mentally troubled patients were literally subjected to torture devices.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Next, it was ice baths and insulin shock.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
then electroconvulsive therapy that caused broken teeth and bones as well as loss of memory and regression into comatose states next it was prefrontal lobotomies with an ice pick through the eye socket today it is drugs it is now routine psychiatric practice to label and stigmatize youth with wholesale diagnosis of mental disorders it is a staggeringly profitable business
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
But while psychiatrists rake in billions, society receives a new generation of lifelong drug addicts and thus still more customers for psychotropic drugs. Today, the market of antidepressants has likewise reached nightmarish proportions, and the scenario becomes even more disturbing when one considers the explosively violent episodes such drugs precipitate.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Moreover, there is categorically no evidence that diseases such drugs claim to treat even exist, which is to say, it's all an elaborate and deadly hoax. This is not Scientology belief or opinion. This is fact, and this is why Scientologists oppose psychiatric abuse.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Browen, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events...
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
pedophile rings government corruption ritual sacrifice no topic is untouched on this show everything that we talk about on the conspiracy files is backed up with fact i release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real it's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Because of the crowding at the Twin Towers Correctional Facility, Johnny only served a total of six weeks before he was released on September 21st, 2012. As soon as he got out, he went to Atwater Village to stay at the Los Feliz Hotel. Two days later, on September 23rd, 2012, Johnny's father picked him up.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Little's known about what Johnny's disposition was on that day, but he apparently went shopping for new clothes with his dad and was brought back to the Valley so he could pick up his motorcycle. which he had left at his parents' condo in Northridge.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Johnny was evidently reluctant to go back to Ridgeview, in spite of his parents' insistence, but it was clear that he needed a place to stay at, and that's where the writer's villa came back into the picture. Johnny apparently asked his father if he could call Miss Kathy and see if there was a spot for him there. Naturally, she agreed and quickly got his old room ready for his arrival.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
The writer's villa was a place for creatives to lick their wounds and heal their souls, and it apparently seemed like the perfect place to help Johnny get back on his feet. To Miss Kathy, who had no idea he had been in prison or was struggling with his mental health, it seemed like the return of a beloved guest and friend.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Now, Jonathan Tucker missed the call and only heard the voicemail about an hour after Johnny left it. The two had been close friends for quite some time. Just a few years prior, Johnny had stayed with Tucker in New York. Tucker claimed that he was a perfect guest.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
When he woke up in the morning, his entire apartment would be clean and Johnny would already be out the door, exploring the neighborhood and bringing back bagels for breakfast. He spent the whole trip trying out different restaurants, going to museums, and writing in the same bars that the Beatniks did in the 50s and 60s. But by 2012, Jonathan decided he couldn't risk letting Johnny stay with him.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Jonathan's eyes well with tears as he says it, as he struggles to look at the camera, instead looking down and out of frame. It's clear it's a decision that he struggled with, but he states that it isn't one he regretted.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
The three siblings were tight-knit from a young age. Old family videos taken from the bulky camcorders of the 80s show snapshots of their seemingly idyllic childhood. Johnny's hair is so blonde that it's almost white. His eyes are bright blue and always crinkled from the toothless grin on his face. There are videos of him singing his ABCs, hugging and dancing with his sister.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Videos of him giggling beside her, both of them happily twirling in fairy costumes. Videos of him teetering around the yard barefoot and swinging on the swing set with a lack of grace that only a toddler can make cute.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
It only took minutes for LAPD to arrive at the writer's villa where Dan had seen Johnny flee after his brutal and unprovoked attack. But in those few minutes, something horrible had happened. Police arrived to find Johnny Lewis laying in a pool of his own blood in the driveway of the writer's villa. By 10.57 a.m., he was pronounced dead.
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He was discovered lying face up, his eyes towards the blue sky, and the back of his head smashed against the concrete. In the photos that we'll link on our Patreon, you can see the spatter of the impact and the sheer amount that he bled.
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His autopsy report reads, "...it appears that the decedent jumped over the wrought iron railing at the top of the terrace to drop to the driveway below during an attempt to flee the location." During this jump, the decedent lost his balance and landed on the driveway head first. A blood splatter is noted on the driveway below the railing.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
The momentum caused him to slide across the driveway where he came to rest along the outside edge of the driveway. In other words, according to the deputy medical examiner, Johnny died in an accidental fall while he was attempting to flee the scene of multiple crimes that he committed.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
They stated that there was no definitive evidence that the fall was intentional, and no evidence that he had been pushed. He died of multiple traumatic injuries, including hemorrhagic fractures of the skull and fractures of his spine. On his body, clear fingernail marks were visible, and it seemed that he had suffered from partial strangulation.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Now, this next part involves animal cruelty, but in the shower in the adjoining bathroom, over the shattered pieces of the broken mirror, there was another horrific discovery awaiting law enforcement. In the shower was the body of Miss Kathy's beloved gray and white cat. He had been beaten and dismembered by Johnny.
Murder In America
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The brutality and senselessness of the scene is something that still haunts everyone who knows this case.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
this day there are several sources articles and biographies about johnny that state he was on drugs at the time of the incident many of these statements seem to stem from the reports about johnny being in a rehab facility ridgeview just prior to his death but the narrative about johnny being addicted to drugs in general isn't as clear-cut as the media has suggested his father and friends have stated that at ridgeview johnny needed to state that he had an addiction in addition to his mental health problems in order to be admitted
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
At first, he tried to state that he had a marijuana addiction. He wrote to his friends in an email. On a side note, we're pleading rehab to avoid trial. Addicted to marijuana, what a trip. But upon arrival at Ridgeview, his claim that he was addicted to marijuana didn't fly with staff. Instead, he started to claim that he was an alcoholic.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
According to many of Johnny's friends, he had dabbled with drugs in the past, but he wasn't an active user or ever struggling with addiction. Jonathan Tucker told LA Mag that Johnny was the type to stay up late playing chess and drinking tea, ever to party. He stated, "...that's what made Johnny special." No drugs, no alcohol, just poetry and philosophy.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Tim Woodhead, a fellow inmate that became friends with Johnny at Twin Towers Correctional Facility, also commented on Johnny's drug use, stating, I did a lot of drug seeking at that place. There were a lot of opportunities that he turned down multiple times. At the time of his death, there were no drugs or alcohol in Johnny's system.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
He was tested for synthetics, PCP, marijuana, ecstasy, just about every drug you can possibly imagine. And every single one came back negative.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In the wake of Miss Kathy's loss, several of her former Hollywood children have tried to carry on her spirit with them, promoting arts programs and encouraging youth to follow their dreams.
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So in honor of Miss Kathy and her mission to the arts, we will be making a donation to Inner City Arts, an organization dedicated to engaging underprivileged youth in the creative process of various art forms to shape a more confident and collaborative society.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Yeah, congratulations to you two from obviously both Courtney and I. Thank you for listening to our show. And we wish you the happiest marriage. Yeah, congratulations. Hey everybody, it's Colin. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. This story is one that I've wanted to tell for a very long time. I just could not believe that this happened.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
When I was younger, I watched Sons of Anarchy. It was my favorite show. I was absolutely obsessed with the show. In a weird twist, a lot of people still to this day tell me that I bear a slight resemblance to Jax. I think they're being very kind, but it's something that I'm told pretty frequently.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
And when I first heard about Johnny, you know, having done these things, it was really, really shocking as someone that loved that show and essentially grew up with it. It's such a sad story all the way around. But if you enjoy these episodes and you want to get access to bonus episodes of Murder in America,
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
consider joining us on our patreon if you sign up for patreon you can get access instantly to a library of over a hundred episodes of murder in america that will never be posted on our main feed these are full-length episodes of the show edited just like every other episode that we post so if you love the show and you want to hear more stories consider joining us on patreon you can also get access to every single episode of the show early and ad free
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Just in case you don't like the advertisements and you want just a clean listening experience. I want to thank everybody who joined us on Patreon over the last few years. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. Thank you all once again for listening this week. We appreciate you all so very much from the bottom of our hearts.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
From the time he was 18 well into his early 20s, Johnny lived in what was known in the industry as the Wilton Hilton, a five-bedroom craftsman house on North Wilton Place in Hollywood. In an interview with L.A. Mag, one of Johnny's roommates at the time, Doug Usher, stated, it was the frat row of young Hollywood.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In the 1970s and 80s, the Wilton Hilton was best known for being party central for the punk rock bands of the time. The influential band The Screamers called it home for several years, inviting groups like Blondie and The Ramones over for wild multi-day parties.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
It seems that by the 90s and early 2000s, when Johnny called it home, it had calmed down slightly, but was still a gathering place for parties and up-and-coming artists to let off some steam. Doug Usher reported to LA Mag that he and Johnny lived in the home with actors Adam Brody, Bret Harrison, and Ashley Simpson, as they were all working their way towards fame.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
This kind of environment, surrounded by other artists, is one that Johnny seems to have chased for the rest of his life. Around 2005, Johnny was a frequent face at local acoustic nights, where fledgling stars would gather to perform their music, writing, and poetry to a like-minded crowd.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Though Johnny loved acting and did it for nearly his entire life, it was poetry and writing that was his true passion, and it seems that his passion at one of these events is what caught Katy Perry's eye.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In September of 2006, Johnny hopped on a plane and left sunny Los Angeles for the fog-shrouded rainforests of Vancouver, Canada to film Alien vs. Predator, Requiem, which he had a starring role in. At that point, it was the most popular movie or television show he had ever been in.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Racking in 130 million dollars in the box office against a 40 million dollar budget Yet his biggest role was still yet to come and it came where he least expected it in February of 2008 a show called Sons of Anarchy began filming its very first season and no one had any idea at the time that the crime drama about an outlaw motorcycle gang would go on to become one of the most popular shows of the 2000s averaging anywhere from 2.2 to
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
to 4.6 million viewers per episode, and snagging Golden Globes along the way. Now, I do have to say, Sons of Anarchy is truly one of my favorite shows of all time, and in it, Johnny plays the role of Kip Halfsack Epps, a prospect in the motorcycle gang.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Essentially, he was the wannabe member tasked with all the jobs and obligations that none of the higher-ranking members wanted to take, kind of like a pledge in a fraternity. It's undeniable that Johnny nailed the role from the very beginning. His loyalty, naivete, and charm quickly made him a fan favorite. But the role was not a favorite of Johnny's.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
At the time, Sons of Anarchy was promoted as one of the darkest, most violent shows on TV. And indeed, looking back at it, the violence is pretty intense. There's a scene where a father is forced to watch his daughter burn to death. Dozens of violent stabbings, a school shooting, torture scenes, drowning scenes, rape scenes. There's even a scene where they murder a pedophile in cold blood.
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The show revolves around a violent gang, so clearly it's not for everyone. And that seemed to be the case for Johnny.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
I've given our chat a lot of thought over the past few days. I want to thank you for being honest. I respect your deep commitment to your creative process and honor your needs as an artist. I tried to look ahead to see what was in store for Half-Sack and I'm not sure I will be able to fulfill your creative needs. I'd hate to be having the same conversation with you at the end of Season 3.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
so I believe it's in everyone's best creative interests to say goodbye to Kip Halfsack Epps. As you requested, I found a cool heroic way for him to go out in 213. He dies in the service of Jackson the Club, saving Abel's life. It's a bloody and honorable death.
Murder In America
EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
In April of 2009, soon after wrapping his final scenes in Sons of Anarchy, Johnny was looking to find a home. And soon enough, he learned about the Writer's Villa, which is a beautiful home located at 3605 Lowry Road. And it's exactly what you picture when you think of a house in the most expensive neighborhood in LA.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
Leading up to it, there are palm and jacaranda trees lining the impossibly narrow mountain roads, hedges and intricate wrought iron fences that separate those winding streets from the multi-million dollar homes hiding in the hillsides. Now, the home itself is a 3,000 square foot mansion designed to look like an Italian villa. It sat high up on the street, looming above all of the other homes.
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It had steep stairs and a nearly vertical driveway leading up to the house. On the inside, it was beautiful yet cozy, the embodiment of warmth. The walls were painted in inviting shades of cream, yellow, and red. Tiles traced the inside of the home, and the huge windows not only overlooked a courtyard, but the breathtaking San Gabriel Mountains.
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EP. 190: CALIFORNIA - Hollywood Celebrity Turned Ruthless Killer: The Tragic Tale of Johnny Lewis
And when Johnny saw this home for the first time, he wanted to live there. Not only was it exactly what he was looking for, but it was also in an area where other celebrities were located, and it seemed like a perfect match.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Nun, hier müssen wir an ein paar juristische Themen konzentrieren, Themen, die wir in unserer Diskussion über Emily Pike übernehmen werden. Die Städte der Städte sind ständig, sie haben ihr eigenes Justizsystem und Teams von Rechtsanwälten, um ihre Städte zu schützen. Doch ihre Fähigkeit, Anzeichen zu beurteilen und Procedure zu beurteilen, ist bedingt bei kleinen Verletzungen.
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If a major crime like murder or kidnapping takes place on tribal lands, the FBI or the Bureau of Indian Affairs must step in to run the investigation. Then it's the US Attorney's Office that presses charges and handles the incarceration. If that sounds incredibly complicated, it's because it is. And as complicated as the pipeline of jurisdiction is, Der Grund dafür ist noch größer.
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Es war nicht bis 1995, dass die letzte residenzielle Schule in den Vereinigten Staaten geschlossen wurde. Residenzielle Schulen wurden von der Föderalen Regierung bezeichnet, um die Menschen in der anglo-christlichen Kultur zu ermöglichen. Die Kinder wurden nicht ermöglicht, ihre Zungen zu sprechen, ihre Religionen zu üben oder kulturelle Events zu feiern.
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Sie konnten nicht selbst sein und wurden gezwungen, jemand Neues zu werden. Das war eine hundertjährige Travestie, die nahezu die reichen und wunderschönen Kulturen verschiedener Städte in den Vereinigten Staaten und Kanada zerstört hat.
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Und das ist ein ganzes Schwert, das wir runtergehen können, besonders in Kanada, wo in manchen dieser Schulen heutzutage massiv Kinder-Gruppen sind, die noch nie berichtet wurden. Ich glaube, wir haben nur die Ecke des Eisbergs entdeckt, wenn es um das Verbrechen und das Verletzen, das in diesen Schulen verbreitet wurde.
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Und es ist wichtig zu wissen, dass das einer der vielen Gründe ist, warum die tribalen Nationen nicht exklusiv unter der Jurisdiktur des Staatsanwalts wollen. Die Unglaublichkeit und generationale Trauma laufen unglaublich tief.
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Und diese gesellschaftliche Souveränität schützt die nativen Menschen in vielen Fällen und erlaubt ihnen, ihre eigene Lande und Menschen zu polizieren, die in einer Art und Weise mit ihrer Kultur und Glauben verbunden sind. Es gibt ein großes Problem, wenn schwere Fälle an die US-Gewerkschaft überwiesen werden.
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Das US-Gewerkschaftsverwaltungsgericht hat im Jahr 2010 beurteilt, dass das US-Gewerkschaftsgericht zwei Drittel der sexuellen Verbrechen von tribalen Regierungen verurteilt hat. Zwei Drittel! Lassen Sie diese Zahl und Statistik für einen Moment sinken. Das bedeutet, dass für jede drei Frauen, Kinder oder Männer, die sexuell verbreitet wurden,
Murder In America
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Nur einer hätte die Möglichkeit, Gerechtigkeit zu erhalten. Und auch dann, ihre Möglichkeit, zu testifizieren und zu kämpfen, ist verringert durch die Unabhängigkeit von einigen tribalen Landen und Ressourcen.
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Meanwhile, Gary, the children's father, drove to the Shiprock Police Department and was finally able to file a missing persons report for his children. By then, it was 6.53pm. Ashlyn and Ian had already been missing for close to three hours, and her parents had been trying to get a response for just as long. But the family had worked fast. The community had worked fast.
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However, law enforcement did not. Now, at this point, a missing persons report had been filed for both children, but an Amber Alert had not been sent out, despite officers having a description of the red van from Grace Lynn. Every minute without this Amber Alert was crushing for the family.
Murder In America
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They felt that as the second slipped by, their chances of recovering Ian and Ashlyn were slipping away with it.
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Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow... Vielen Dank, Jungs. Aber lasst uns zurück in die Geschichte.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Außerhalb ging die Suche weiter, zumindest für die Familie und Freunde von Ashlyn und Ian. Sie haben einen informellen Anruf auf dem Kapitänhaus der Reservation gemacht, wo Rick Nez, der Präsident, Suchtparteien organisiert hat. Jedoch war die Einwohnung von tribaler und staatlicher Gefängnisverwaltung viel zu erwarten.
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Um 8 Uhr Uhr, vier Stunden nachdem die beiden Kinder verletzt wurden und eine volle Stunde nachdem der Verletzungsbericht verletzt wurde, hat Pamelas Schwester, Maybelline Buck, den Farmington-Polizeidepartner, Teil der New Mexico State Police, angerufen. Sie hat ihnen gesagt, Quote, My cousin just posted on Facebook that her kids were kidnapped.
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I was just calling to see if the Navajo PD alerted you guys. Apparently, they found my nephew, he escaped from the van, but they still have my niece." And she was shocked by the response. The dispatcher told her that the Farmington Police Department didn't know a single thing about the missing children. Exasperiert, hat sie ihnen gesagt, dass es urgent war und dass sie geschaut werden mussten.
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Halb eine Stunde später hat sie wieder zurückgeklingelt, um zu sehen, ob sie involviert worden sind. Diese Zeit hat ein anderer Sprecher geantwortet. Als sie die Situation erklärte, fragten sie sie. Hast du das noch an die Reservationpolizei reportiert?
Murder In America
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Schau dir mal an, wie frustriert die Kindesfamilie war, im Wesentlichen die Arbeit von mehreren Polizei-Departementen, weil, leider, die Polizei-Departementen nicht zusammenarbeiten konnten. Maybelline rutschte zum Farmington Polizei-Departement, um mit ihnen in Person zu sprechen. Dort entdeckte sie etwas noch schockierenderes. Meiner Meinung nach war eine Suchteam bereit. Sie sagte den L.A.
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Times, Sie sagte, wir haben alle auf dem Standbein hier, wir warten nur auf ein Okay von der Navajo-Nation, weil es ein Jurisdiktionsproblem ist. Sie hat mir gesagt, sie konnten wirklich nichts tun und die Zeit war nur tickend.
Murder In America
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Um 9.07 Uhr, fünf Stunden nach der Verletzung von Ashland, hat die Navajo Nation die Polizei einen Amber Alert von der FBI gefordert. Aber das war ein Fehler. Amber Alerts müssen von der Staatspolizei, nicht von der FBI, veröffentlicht werden. Das bedeutet, dass die Navajo Nation den falschen Menschen ausgesprochen hat.
Murder In America
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Farmington wurde mehrere Male angerufen und gefragt, warum keine Amber Alert verabschiedet wurde, aber sie hatten keine Antwort. Irgendwann nach Mittwoch hat ein FBI-Agent den Anruf für die Amber Alert von der Navajo Nation Police Department überprüft und die Fehler, die gemacht wurden, bemerkt.
Murder In America
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Sie haben das National Center for Missing and Exploited Children kontaktiert, die in der Regel die Staatspolizei kontaktiert, um eine Amber Alert verabschiedet zu bekommen. Um 2.30 Uhr haben viele Mitglieder der Suchtpartei für Ashland endlich geschlafen, um ein paar Stunden Abstand zu bekommen, bevor die Sonne aufging und die Sucht weiterging. Aber dann wurden sie plötzlich aufgewacht, wach.
Murder In America
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Die Amber Alert war endlich durch die Reservation und weiter. Aber es war eine volle acht Stunden nachdem der Missing Persons-Report veröffentlicht wurde. Zehn Stunden nachdem die Behörden und die Familie eine Beschreibung des Fahrzeugs erhalten hatten, das die Kinder verabschiedet hatte. In anderen Worten, es war viel zu spät.
Murder In America
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Early in the morning, Tom Begay Jr. visited his friend, Rufus Dickey. Rufus had a soft spot for Tom and his brother Sean, who had essentially crumbled after the death of their parents in 2014. Their parents had been loyal attendees of the Native American Church, which combined indigenous beliefs with native beliefs.
Murder In America
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Rufus had taken it upon himself to check on Tom and Sean after the death of their parents and discovered them living in filth. Grundsätzlich haben die beiden so viel mentale und finanzielle Schwierigkeiten, dass sie nichts mehr als Frühstück-Serien essen. Rufus sagte den Los Cruces-Söhnen News, sie seien ohne ihre Eltern verloren.
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Ich hatte nicht viel Essen in meinem Friseur, aber was ich hatte, habe ich ihnen gegeben. Von dann an hat die Gemeinschaft und die Kirche die Jungs genommen, um sie in die richtige Richtung zu führen. Rufus ermutigte Tom, Drogen zu vermeiden, obwohl er 2015 für DWI verurteilt wurde und drei Wochen vor dem Mord von Ashlyn Mike für synthetische Marihuana verhaftet wurde.
Murder In America
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The service began at noon and went on for several hours. Every ceremony is different, and sweat lodges and ceremonies are a central part of many indigenous cultures. However, the general idea and the importance of these remain the same. They are a time for connection, to release impurities in the mind, spirit and body. und sich neu anzulösen.
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Oft sind die Sweat Lodge-Sessionen mit Schreien, Liedern und tiefen Gemeinschaften. Die Leute teilen ihre Sorgen und Stress mit Kirchenärzten in der Dunkelheit voller Steine und Wärme. In manchen Navajo-Gemeinschaften benutzen die Leute Peyote, eine Kaktus mit Mescalin, einem psychoaktiven Komponenten.
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Peyote wurde traditionell in spirituellen und medizinischen Kontexten von indigenen Triben für über 5.000 Jahre genutzt, was es ermöglicht hat, es legal auf tribaler Lande in der heutigen Zeit zu benutzen. Wir wissen nicht, ob Peyote in der Zeremonie an diesem Tag genutzt wurde, aber es ist bekannt, dass viel von der Zeremonie um Ashlyn ging. Rufus Dickey sagte Las Cruces Sohn, es gab Tränen.
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Die Schmerzzeremonie war so emotional. Sie sangen und beteten für Ashlyns sichere Rückkehr als Gruppe. Aber sie hatten alle keine Ahnung, dass ihr Mörder neben ihnen sitzt, in dieser heiligen Zeremonie teilnimmt, ein schreckliches Geheimnis innerhalb sich selbst versteckt.
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It didn't take long for Tom to admit what he had done, at least in part. He admitted to kidnapping the children. Boldly, he told the FBI that he had taken them because he wanted to have sexual intercourse with Ashlyn. Keep in mind, Ashlyn was 11. And just for anybody out there that might be confused, just to be completely clear, that is not sexual intercourse. Das ist Rape.
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Er hat Ashlyn und ihren Bruder verabschiedet, weil er eine innere 11-jährige Mädchen vor einem Monument verabschieden wollte, das für sein Volk heilig war. Nun, der Grund, warum er Ian genommen hat, ist, weil er nicht wollte, dass er weggeht und seiner Familie erzählt, dass Ashlyn in einem Auto mit einem randomen Mann eingeladen wurde, also hat er ihn mitgebracht.
Murder In America
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Einmal im Wälder, hat Tom verabschiedet, dass er das Auto stoppte und mit ihm ein Fahrrad mitgenommen hat, um Ashlyn hinter einem Berg zu gehen, wo ihr Bruder nicht sehen konnte. Er hat dann die junge Frau angemeldet, sich nackt zu strecken. Tom hatte kein Problem damit zu akzeptieren, dass sie durch das gesamte Verhandeln schweigend und beugend war, ihn einfach nach Hause zu nehmen.
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Aber er hat sich nicht interessiert. Initial hat er bestätigt, dass er sie nur digital penetriert hat. Als sie begann zu schreien und zu laut zu weinen, glaubte er, dass er ihr zweimal auf den Kopf mit dem Schraubendreher geschlagen hat.
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Am 6. Mai war Ashlands Geburtstag am Farmington Civic Center Auditorium. Es waren über 3.000 Menschen in Bezug. Am Geburtstag hat Ashlands Mutter die Eulogie geliefert.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Ashlyns weiße Kassette war mit pink, purple, yellow und weißen Blumen entdeckt, so vibrant in Farbe, wie sie im Leben war. Die meisten Menschen am Feierabend trugen yellow, das war Ashlyns Lieblingsfarbe für die meiste ihrer Kindheit. Laut Gary Mike in den letzten Wochen war ihre neue Farbe royal blue. Doch er war nicht sicher, ob es sich aufhören würde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Er sagte zu Squire, und yellow ist auch schön.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
It was the very first step towards healing and justice for the family. Then, on August 1, 2017, the next big step came. At trial, Tom, who had pleaded not guilty at pre-trial, finally changed his plea to guilty. Ashlands family members in the audience began to sob. The judge asked Gary Mike if he had anything he wanted to say to the man who raped and murdered his daughter.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
In Tränen antwortete Gary, dass er nichts sagen konnte. Später, in einer Interview mit der lokalen Station KRQE, sagte er, Worte können nicht beschreiben, was ich fühle, was wir alle fühlen. Tom wurde in Gefängnis verurteilt ohne die Möglichkeit, sich zu verurteilen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Nach dem Publizieren dieses Episodes ist er in Indiana bei USP Terre Haute verurteilt, weit weg von der Gemeinschaft, die er verurteilt hat. Wenn du Mörder in Amerika liebst, du liebst Geheimnisse, du liebst echten Kram, du liebst Mördergeschichten und das Unbekannte, dann habe ich ein neues Show für dich.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Es heißt The Conspiracy Files und es wird von mir, Colin Browen, von Mörder in Amerika und The Paranormal Files gedreht. Auf The Conspiracy Files besuchen wir alles von bizarren Töten bis zu verrückten Paranormalen Events, Pädophilen-Ringen, Regierungs-Korruption, Rituals-Sacrifice. Kein Thema ist auf diesem Show unabhängig.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Alles, was wir über The Conspiracy Files sprechen, wird auf The Conspiracy Files gesetzt. mit Fakten. Ich veröffentliche Referenzschichten mit jedem einzelnen Episode, den wir machen, damit ihr wisst, dass alles, worüber wir reden, veröffentlicht ist, passiert und real ist. Es ist ein völlig anderer Art von Show, als alles andere, was ihr je gesehen habt, über Verschwörungstheorien.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Anstatt ein paar Konjunkturen und Theorien, präsentieren wir euch Menschen mit Fakten, erzählen euch die Geschichte, gehen euch durch die Geschichte, so detailliert wie wir es mit Mörder in Amerika machen, und dann lassen wir den Zuhörer entscheiden, was sie denken. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
St. Bataille ist ein heiliger Ort. Ein kräftiger Berg von Steinen, die in den Himmel fliegen, wie eine Explosion. Es ist ein berühmter Berg auf Navajo-Land, außerhalb von Shiprock, New Mexico. An beiden Seiten der Steine-Formation streicht der Desert weiter und weiter. St. Bataille, mit seiner Höhe von 1500 Metern, kann von so weit wie 40 Meilen entfernt gesehen werden.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
And you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Emily wurde am 16. Mai 2010 geboren und wurde auf der San Carlos Apache Reservation geboren. Von einer jungen Zeit her waren ihre Eltern separat. Laut Arizona Central News wurde sie in ein bisschen einer Revolving Door Situation geboren. Manchmal lebte sie mit ihrem Bruder, ihrer Mutter, ihrer Großmutter, ihren Eltern und anderen Relativen zu Hause in Paradon.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Ein Relativ erklärte, dass das Haus nicht immer glücklich war und dass es oft gruselig und phrenetisch war.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Es ist eine dominierende Figur in der Landschaft. Navajo-Fotografin Pamela Peters sagt, es sei ein sauberer Bezug auf unsere Geschichte, unsere Traditionen, unsere Spiritualität. Es ist wie ein sicherer Relativ, der uns zu Hause willkommen macht. Endquote. Kolonisierer nannten Setbatai Schiprock, weil es für sie wie ein riesiges Frigat aussah, das über den Desert fliegt.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Und das ist, wo die Dinge ein wenig müde werden. Nun, die Gruppenzentrum, in der Emily eingestellt wurde, hat intensiv Anstrengungen durch diesen Fall, die wir kürzlich erläutern werden. Auf Google ist das Verhältnis jetzt als geschlossen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Jedoch ist ihre Website immer noch auf und oft werden die Unternehmen ihre Google-Business-Page schließen, wenn sie eine überraschende Anzahl negativer Reviews bekommen. Das ist genau das, was passiert ist, als der Name dieser Facility dem Publikum geleakt wurde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Die Leute haben sich auf TikTok, Instagram und Twitter getroffen, um zu feiern, dass die Facility geschlossen wurde, aufgrund dieser Google-Business-Page. Aber wir denken, es ist wichtig, hier zu erwähnen, dass das kein Fakt ist.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Was Fakt ist, aber, ist, dass es professionelle Investitionen in die Facility gibt, die wir in diesem Podcast drehen, insbesondere Investitionen, die von sowohl staatlichen als auch tribalen Organisationen erledigt werden.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
We don't know if the facility is truly open or if it's closed, but in the case that it is open, we aren't going to disclose the name in order to protect the safety of any kids that might still be there. At the core of this story, we have to remember that we need to protect those that are the most vulnerable. Das geschieht durch legale Aktion, Gemeinschaftsausrüstung und Reform.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Es geschieht nicht durch die Bedrohung eines Ortes, in dem diese Kinder leben, indem sie ihre Adresse auf einem silbernen Plattel an jemanden ausweiten, vor allem wenn die Person, die Emily Pike getötet hat, noch da ist. Aber das Heimgruppe, in dem Emily zwei Jahre lang auf und auf gelebt hat, hatte beruflich zehn Bäume.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
There were no phones allowed in the facility, though people living there were allowed off campus for approved trips, as long as it was disclosed exactly where they were going and when they would be home.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Emily and another child ran away from the group home. Though the report claimed that there were cameras in the hallways in the office, the two preteens weren't seen leaving on either. The night prior, one of the two kids had a secret cell phone confiscated, which is part of what the staff claimed likely led to the girls running away. However, they claimed something entirely different.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Because of the girls' ages, who said what isn't publicly known. It is known that one of the girls told police... Sie wollten nicht zurück in das Gruppengebäude gehen, weil sie es mit dem Schrauben von Wänden, Basenbordern, Fensterhöhlen und dem Schrauben der Gräuze auf ihre Hände und Knie machen wollten.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Aber für den lokalen Navajo sah es als etwas anderes aus. Der Name Setbata'i entspricht ungefähr dem Wort Rock with Wings, mit dem Wort Bata'i, also etwas, das sich an Fäden bezieht. Die Legende variiert, abhängig davon, wer Sie fragen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Eine der Mädchen hat gesagt, dass sie wieder weggehen würde, wenn die Polizei sie zurückbringt, und dass sie lieber in den Gefängnis gehen würde oder mit ihrer Großmutter leben würde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Und ich kann es nicht sicher sagen, aber was neun Tage später passiert ist, macht mir zu glauben, dass es wahrscheinlich Emily war, die gesagt hat, dass sie wieder weggehen würde, weil sie früh in der Nachmittagszeit missbraucht wurde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Sie hat dem Offizier, der sie gefunden hat, gesagt, dass sie nicht zurückkehren wollte, weil es ihr unangenehm macht, wenn die Mitarbeiter in Argumente mit anderen Kindern kommen. Einmal mehr wurde Emily zu Hause zurückgekehrt. Für mich ist das der Teil der Geschichte, den das Publikum fokussieren sollte. Es gab einen Grund, warum Emily nicht in der Wohnung sein wollte.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Whether that's because of mistreatment from the staff or her own needs not aligning with the program, we don't know. Regardless, it's clear that she was uncomfortable and in need of help. She should have been listened to and protected.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Aber laut dem Native Memory Project kamen die Navajo von einem anderen Weltraum auf die Füße eines riesigen Pferdes, das in Shiprock landete und in Stein gewechselt wurde. Das Pferd hat sie zu Dinetta, ihrem traditionellen Heimatland auf dieser Erde, eingeladen. was ihre dritte Welt war. Navajo-Leute nennen sie sich Diné, das Wort für ihre Leute.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
War sie tot? War sie lebendig? Wurden sie ihre lachende Gesichter wieder sehen? Und am Ende bekamen sie ihre Antwort in der schlimmsten Art und Weise. Bald nach Weihnachtsabend machte das Gila-Kreis-Polizei einen riesigen Fehler. Auf ihrem Facebook-Kanal haben sie einen internen Memo veröffentlicht. Dieser Memo wollte zu jedem Mitglied ihres Departments gehen, sondern ging an die Welt.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Und so wurde es in kaltem, professionellen Sprachen geschrieben. Es schrieb so. Die Memo erklärte, dass Erinnerungen in Globe, Arizona, am Weihnachtsabend auf der 60er-Weite, nahe der 277er-Weite, gefunden wurden. Auf der desolatenen, berghaften Straße gibt es eine Verschiebung mit einem Hiking-Trail. Auf diesem Hiking-Trail hat ein Grupp von Hikern mehrere Kontrakte-Türen entdeckt.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
In den Türen entdeckte die Polizei Erinnerungen. In einer Tüte ein Kopf und ein Torso. In der anderen, die Beine. Die Hände und Beine des Körpers waren missbraucht. Am Ende des Memos wurde gesagt, dass der Körper vermutlich zu 14-jähriger Emily Pike gehörte. Diese Memo wurde wie Wildfire verbreitet, insbesondere für ihre Familie, die über Worte enttäuscht war.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Sie hatten bereits getraumtisiert, weil sie einige der letzten waren, um über ihre Verlust zu lernen. Jetzt lernten sie über ihre schreckliche Tod mit der gesamten Internetseite. Es war nicht bis über eine Woche später, am 27. Februar, dass ihre Erinnerungen positiv identifiziert wurden mit ihren Dental-Rekorden. Aber Emilys Tod ist nun ein Symbol für vermisste und ermordete indigenische Menschen,
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
largely due to her family's quest for justice april victor emily's aunt stated quote emily was a spark and she definitely sparked the world and now the world is on fire because of emily end quote hashtag say her name emily pike started to trend a rallying cry used to bring attention not only to her murder but the disappearance and murders of hundreds of indigenous people across america people have gathered to create memorials in honor of emily
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
memorials that are adorned with red handprints the symbol of mmip the water tower on the san carlos apache reservation is adorned with a beautiful portrait of emily smiling down on the reservation where her body should be resting with peace but tragically it's not
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Einige Ältere sagen, dass Diné die Oberfläche-Leute bezeichnet oder die Leute zwischen dem Himmel und der Mutter Erde. Andere sagen, dass es sich einfach an die Leute bezieht. Shiprock oder Sepetai ist dort, wo manche glauben, dass die Diné von dieser Welt geworden ist.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Mit einem störenden Anzahl an missbrauchten nativistischen Frauen und Mädchen wäre es nicht überraschend, wenn diese Person andere Gefühle hätte.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Es ist ihr Geburtstag, ein Symbol ihres Belohnens hier und die Verbindung ihrer Leute zu einem anderen und diesem wunderschönen Land.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
In diesem Video haben wir juristische Probleme besprochen, aber das ist die größte ehrgeizige Repräsentation von allem. Wie viele nativistische Kinder, Frauen, Zweifel und Männer müssen weggehen, bevor jemand einen Weg findet, wie diese Fälle dem Publikum präsentiert werden?
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Bevor die Medien und die Gesetzgebung diese unnötigen Menschen mit dem selben Wunsch als eine reiche Person in einer Stadt behandeln?
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
There's 13-year-old Aurora Torres, who went missing from the Gila River community on March 25th, 2025. Raina B. Pratt, also from the Gila River community, who was last seen at 8 a.m. on March 26th, 2025. There's 16-year-old Amber Pinto, missing from the Navajo Nation since December 14th, 2022. Berlina Parker, missing from Albuquerque, New Mexico since September 27th, 2024.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Es gibt Kayla Kamasi, Kiara Yazzie, Liana Bennet, Markeisha Declay, alle unter 20 Jahren alt, mit so wenig öffentliche Informationen vorhanden, dass es schwer ist, genau wann und wo sie verloren haben.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Hey Leute, vielen Dank für's Zuhören zu dieser Woche's Episode von Murder in America. Ich bin eine Stimme auf der Internetseite für die Angelegenheit, die wir in der Vergangenheit gemacht haben, wirklich wahrzunehmen. Besonders den indigenischen Menschen auf meinem YouTube-Kanal. Ich habe ganze Dokumentare über indigenische Geburtsräume gemacht, die komplett zerstört wurden, um Straßen zu bauen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Ich komme aus Süddakota, also habe ich viel davon gesehen. Und wir hatten einen sehr korrupten Staatsanwalt in Süddakota, der Kinder mit sexuellen Verbrechern wiederholt hat. Das ist ein ganz anderes Thema, um es an einem anderen Tag zu sprechen. Aber ich fühle dieses Problem in meinem Geist. Ich weiß, dass Courtney es auch tut.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Also alles, was wir tun können, um Hilfe zu versuchen, werden wir versuchen. Und wir werden die Alarm fortsetzen, hoffentlich die Bewusstsein dieses großen Problems zu verbreiten. Und wir hoffen und beten beide, dass Resolution in diesem Fall kommt. Wenn ihr den Kanal unterstützen möchtet, könnt ihr uns auf Patreon einladen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Wenn ihr die Ads nicht möchtet und ihr echte Zugang zu jedem Video möchtet, könnt ihr das durch unseren Patreon machen. Außerdem gibt es Bonus-Episode vom Show. Wenn ihr also noch nie auf Patreon eingeladen habt, könnt ihr sich einladen, um ein Mitglied zu werden und sofort über 100 volllängere Bonus-Episode von Murder in America zu bekommen. Bonus-Episode, die...
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Also vergesst nicht, uns auf Instagram zu folgen, bei Murder in America. Please leave us a 5-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We really want to boost those reviews. Thank you to everybody who has already done all of that. But yeah, this is such a tragic case and we're just hoping that there's resolution soon. And if that happens, we will be sure to give you guys a major update.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Anyways, y'all, thank you for tuning in. Have a great rest of your weekend and I'll catch y'all on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Wenn Menschen von Ashlyn sprechen, sagen sie fast immer, dass sie eine Kreativität am Herzen war. Sie spielte das Xylophon und das Piano mit impeccablen Fähigkeiten, als ob sie aus ihrem Geburtstag gespielt hätte. Als sie keine Instrumente spielte, war sie ein Schauspieler.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Sie hat mehrere Werte für ihre Schauspieler in der Schule und in der Gemeinschaft gewonnen und hat sie sogar nur ein paar Wochen vor ihrer Todeszeit bekommen. Eine ihrer Schauspieler, die wir auf Instagram und Patreon posten, zeigt die Schönheit ihrer nativen Heimat. Es ist klar, wie viel Inspiration die Umgebung für ihre wachsende Meinung war.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Nun, für die meiste ihrer Kindheit waren ihre Eltern nicht zusammen. Aber auf alle Fälle wuchs sie, fühlte die Liebe von beiden ihrer Eltern, zusammen mit ihrem Bruder und Schwester Ian und Gracelyn. Ihre Mutter, Pamela, lebte auf einer Farm in Redlands, Kalifornien, wo Ashlyn oft besuchen würde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Warnung! Der folgende Podcast ist nicht für alle Audienzen zuständig. Wir gehen in großem Detail mit jedem Fall, den wir coveren, und tun unser Bestes, die Zuschauer noch tiefer in die Geschichte bringen, indem wir disturbierende Audio- und Soundeffekte nutzen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Sie hat gebeten, mit den Tieren zu spielen und sie zu kümmern, die Hunde, Katzen und Hühnern zu behandeln, als wären sie ihre liebsten Freunde.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Ein schmutziger Maroon-Van kam zu Gracelyn und ihren Cousinen. Der Mann, Tom Begay Jr., schlug durch das Fenster und lachte an die Kinder. Er war in seinen 20er Jahren, ein Freund von Danae, aber die Kinder dachten nicht, dass sie ihn je gesehen hätten. Aber seltsam genug fragte er sie, ob sie einen Film sehen wollten. Findend dies seltsam, sagte Gracelyn ihm stark Nein.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Dann fragte er, ob die Kinder eine Reise nach Hause brauchen sollten. Aber wiederum sagte Gracelyn ihm Nein. Die Reise nach Hause war etwas, was sie jeden Tag für Jahre gemacht haben. Sie brauchten keine Reise, also hat der Mann sein Fenster aufgerollt und weggefahren, das Wasser hinter ihm zu schlagen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Die Kinder dachten, dass die Begegnung seltsam war, aber es war nicht komplett ungewöhnlich für die Leute auf der Reservation, sich einander wie eine Familie zu behandeln, auch wenn sie sich noch nie kennengelernt haben. Bram Biele, ein Dinei, der in einer anderen Gemeinschaft lebt, sagte im Albuquerque Journal. In der Navajo-Kultur gibt es dieses Konzept von Kindheit.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Eigentlich behandelt man jedes Kind, Ältere und Person, als ob sie Teil Ihrer direkten Familie sind.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Am Ende kreisteten sie über einen Berg, ein paar Meilen nach Süden von Sainte-Bataille. Sie waren auf einer unglaublich breiten Dirtstraße. Es ist schwer zu verstehen, wie breit es ist, bis man eine desertische Gemeinschaft besucht, so wie diese. Die Straßen in diesen Bereichen sind breit genug.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Aber wenn man sich eine Runde über 1, 2, 3, 4 dörrige Straßen dreht, die sich über Meilen und Meilen strecken, können andere Menschen aussehen, als wären sie einen anderen Weltraum entfernt, obwohl sie sie sehen können. Das ist das, was in diesem Fall passiert ist. Um die Kinder herum gab es nichts mehr als Kühe, Pferde und Häuser, die nah genug zu sehen waren, aber zu weit, um Hilfe zu bekommen.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Nach dem Kressen der Hillen hat Tom das Fahrzeug stoppt. Er hat Ashlyn rausgeholt und Ian geordert, in der Rückseite zu bleiben und ruhig zu bleiben, bis er zurückkam. Ashlyn hat ihr Bruder's Hand zum letzten Mal gespürt. und tat, was sie gesagt hatte, weinend, als sie aussteigte.
Murder In America
EP. 198: ARIZONA - The Murder of Emily Pike
Und horrifisch, von hier an, würde Tom später sagen, dass er zu der Rückseite eines Autos ging und ein Tire-Iron entdeckte, es unter seinem Jackett versteckte, damit die Kinder es nicht sehen und erschrocken würden.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
What's your name?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
What's the problem?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Is your husband there? No. Well, what's the problem? I need them to come. I need to know why we're coming, ma'am. Is he there standing next to you? Pardon me? Are you having a disturbance? Are you ill or what?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
You need an ambulance?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
What's the problem? Is someone burglarizing your house? I mean, what is it? What kind of medical problem do you have, ma'am? I just need a police officer. You're at 942 Beachcomber, right?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Are you there alone?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Andrea Yates, is your husband there with you?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Well, why do you need the police, ma'am?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
From here, Officer David Knapp responded to the scene. But while he was on his way over, Andrea placed another call, this time to her husband, Rusty. When Rusty picked up the phone at work, Andrea immediately said, It's time. I finally did it. before asking him to come home.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
According to court documents, Andrea's comment to Rusty was in reference to the biblical prophecy and revelations about Armageddon. the last battle between good and evil. Upon getting this phone call, Rusty knew it wasn't good, and he quickly left work. But before he could get home, Officer David Knapp pulled up to the scene at 9.55 a.m.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
After parking his squad car outside the house, he walked up the concrete path to a wrought iron front gate, unlocked it, and proceeded to ring the doorbell. Seconds later, the door opened, and standing in front of him was Andrea Yates. One of the first things he noticed was that she was soaking wet, but in a calm voice, she told him that she had just killed her children.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
From there, she led the officer down a darkened hallway to the primary bedroom. The carpet in the bedroom was saturated with water. but Andrea then points towards the bed. Officer Knapp could see the outline of four small bodies underneath a sheet, and when he pulls the covers back, he sees an image that he'll never be able to forget.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
There, lying alongside each other, were four small children, all under the age of five. They were all soaking wet, still in their pajamas. Each of their heads were resting on pillows, and their eyes were open, staring vacantly up at the ceiling. Officer Knapp checked for signs of life, and although they were all still warm to the touch, the children were deceased.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
From there, Andrea led the officer into the bathroom, where he saw seven-year-old Noah still floating in the bathtub. It was the worst thing Officer Knapp had ever seen. He quickly called for backup, and soon enough, the house on Beachcomber Lane would be swarming with police.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on Instagram, post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to murder in America. That seriously helps us so much helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously. Thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
But let's get back to the story. Throughout the entire 17 minute confession, Andrea was very honest with investigators. She didn't make excuses for herself or try to make anyone feel bad for her. She was very matter of fact and emotionless. But back at home, a large crowd had gathered. There were friends and family members, neighbors, police, and of course the media.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And word about those murders spread like wildfire. This would go on to be one of Houston's most infamous cases. As the news spread, the community of Clear Lake and the people who had been closest to Andrea were shocked that she had committed such a horrific act. Family members and friends were in disbelief.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
No one could have ever imagined that Andrea would have been capable of killing her children. To them, she had always been a loving and doting mother. Here's Andrea's childhood friend, Marlene Wark, talking about hearing the news.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Now, at 2.45 p.m. that day, Rusty Yates went to the Harris County Medical Examiner's office to identify the bodies of his children. They were all lying there, still in their pajamas. Each child had a foam-like substance that was tinged with blood coming out of their mouths.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
and noses the little ones diapers were big and wet from all the water and sadly each of the kids was covered in bruises indicating that they had put up a fight against their mother when she was trying to kill them but from there Rusty said his goodbyes to his children a moment he would never forget and the following day on June 21st surrounded by a sea of reporters Rusty would stand outside the family home with a framed picture of his family
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And to everyone's surprise, he expressed sympathy for his wife.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Later that same day, Dr. Melissa Ferguson spoke with Andrea at the Houston Police Department and noted, It was very clear that Andrea was not in the right state of mind. She even told investigators that her father had starved himself and died by suicide, which wasn't true. Her dad died after a long battle with Alzheimer's disease.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
But Andrea continued telling investigators that she was a bad mother and a bad daughter. She talked about how she stopped showering because she was too tired. She said that she hadn't been homeschooling her oldest son, Noah, because he was a R-word and that she wasn't homeschooling him correctly.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
In part one of this story, we left off with Andrea getting discharged from the psych ward once again. Over the past couple of years, she had been admitted on numerous occasions after multiple suicide attempts and severe hallucinations where she was hearing voices telling her to harm people. But like all the times before, Andrea would eventually get better.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Two days after the murders, on June 22nd, as the sun set on 942 Beachcomber Lane, hundreds of people arrived for a candlelight vigil to remember the Yates' children. There wasn't a dry eye in the crowd. Eventually, Rusty emerged from the house as a swarm of media and television cameras rushed to meet him.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
He respectfully asked the media to step back and said, He also told everyone to continue to pray for Andrea as she was in jail, suffering with the repercussions from what she had done. And from there, the crowd began to sing Amazing Grace. In front of them, surrounding a tree in the yard, was a shrine filled with teddy bears, flowers, balloons, pictures, and notes.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
She'd be discharged from the hospital and promised to take her medication, but she never followed through on those promises. Andrea didn't like the way this medication made her feel, so she would just stop taking it. And it would only be a matter of time until she started having psychotic symptoms once again. Now, in the spring of 2001, Andrea's father would die from a long battle of Alzheimer's.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
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Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make us feel more put together without even trying. Honestly, we've talked about this company before, but Quince makes incredibly comfortable, very well-fitted clothing that Courtney and I have come to love.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Even with the simple things like t-shirts, I love wearing my t-shirts that I've gotten from Quince every day, whether I'm sitting at home editing videos and podcasts or Courtney and I are running around town getting some things done. Through Quince, you can get 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30, luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. But the best part?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Everything with Quince is priced 50-80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So treat your closet to a little summer glow up with Quince.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Go to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash America to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash America. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
In addition to that, she had also just given birth to her only daughter, Mary. So on top of losing her father, she was also experiencing another horrific bout of postpartum depression.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
While the Yates children were being buried, their mother Andrea was still in the psychiatric jail cell undergoing evaluations. Throughout that week, she continued hearing Satan's voice inside the cinderblock walls of the jail. She also told Dr. Ferguson that there were objects in the light fixtures. She then leaned forward in her chair and loudly stated, It is the seventh deadly sin.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were going to perish. I was so stupid. Couldn't I have killed just one to fulfill the prophecy?
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
andrea then asked if her children were in heaven before saying that she wanted a razor to shave her head she told dr ferguson that she was satan and wanted to see if the mark of the beast 666 was still on the top of her head her defense psychiatrist dr lucy puryear would later say she was the sickest person i've ever seen in my life she was not bathed she was dressed in this orange jail outfit her shirt was falling off of her she didn't have a bra on her hair was hanging in her face and she was shaking
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Her defense attorney would say, She had eyes when she looked at you. Had no pupils. They were like shark eyes. She can answer questions about what happened, but any sort of question about why or what's going on or what are you doing, it just sort of sent her into an immediate never-never land. But in Andrea's mind, she wasn't mentally ill.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
She denied being sick at all, claiming that everything she experienced was actually happening. She told her doctors that she was Satan and even said, The state will impose the death penalty on Satan.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Now, throughout Andrea's evaluations, she never denied murdering her five children. She even told her counsel, attorneys George Parnham and Wendell Odom, that she wanted to plead guilty during her trial. She placed the blame on herself, often referring to herself as Satan, but her doctors knew that she was mentally ill. Dr. Vincent Roselli said, She's clearly insane.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
You can't have that kind of history and all of a sudden, bam, you kill five kids. She's a nurse, and most nurses are pretty nurturing kinds of people, caretakers. and you don't just suddenly drown five kids, something went wrong.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
the next three weeks the state argued that andrea yates knew what she was doing on the morning of the murders according to their argument andrea's actions were intentional and premeditated their evidence for this andrea purposefully waited until rusty left the house that morning she also committed the murders quickly before her mother was set to arrive according to the state's argument andrea was in her right mind and knew the perfect time to act
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
They relied heavily on physical evidence, especially when it came to the order in which the children were murdered. Instead of murdering the oldest child, Noah, first, she started with the younger children. The state argued that Andrea methodically planned this because there was a chance that Noah would have alerted the other children, and perhaps one of them could have run out of the house.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Now, they did not deny that Andrea Yates was mentally ill. However, they stated that she did know the difference between right and wrong.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
To further prove Andrea's psychosis, the defense also brought up the Waranecki family, the Fire and Brimstone pastors that they looked up to. Like we mentioned earlier in this story, Andrea and Rusty communicated with these pastors for years, and many of their teachings were fear-inducing.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
The Yates family even received the Waranecki's newsletters, which were filled with these intense religious ideologies. One of the newsletters included a poem titled, Modern Mother Worldly. It read, Modern Mother Worldly was very, very lazy. All her children drove her crazy. The Bible told her to spank and train them, but society said she must never constrain them.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
On May 14th, 2001, Rusty took Andrea back to Dr. Saeed's office because she had once again slipped into a catatonic state. Rusty told the doctor that the antipsychotic medication, Risperdal, wasn't working, and he suggested that she be put back on Haldol. which had worked on Andrea in the past. He also told the doctor about how Andrea randomly filled up the bathtub several times that week.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
The fruit of rebellion she did not see. On the day of judgment she will have no plea. Modern Mother Worldly cast in hell. Now what becomes of the children of such a Jezebel? The defense argued that Andrea truly believed she was a Jezebel and was possessed by an unknown demonic force.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
One expert, defense psychiatrist Dr. Philip Resnick, even labeled Andrea's condition as cacodemonomania, the belief that one is possessed by a demon. Dr. Resnick stated that cacodominomania is often found with people suffering from religious delusions.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Andrea was also obsessed with the Bible verse Luke 17.2 that stated, It would be better for him if a milestone were hung around his neck than he were thrown into the sea than that he should cause one of the little ones to stumble. And Andrea quoted that verse in her evaluations. She said her children were stumbling and that she needed to save them before it was too late.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Dr. Saeed once again proposed electroshock therapy, but Rusty was completely against it. Interestingly, postpartum psychosis is often treated with a mix of medications and electroshock therapy. In fact, according to the Mayo Clinic,
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
the mild electrical currents that are passed through a person's brain changes the brain activity that's responsible for symptoms of psychosis and depression of course there's a negative stigma attached to ect and many people still believe that it's a barbaric treatment when it originally came out they didn't use anesthesia and the amount of electrical shock they were using was intense but today patients are usually given a muscle relaxer put under general anesthesia and a mild electrical current is used
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show. than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story. From there, Andrea was transferred from the county jail to Skyview, a prison psychiatric hospital in Rusk, Texas. In the beginning, she still showed signs of mental illness. But as the time went on, she got better.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Eventually, two years would pass. And after all that time of finally being consistent with her medication, Andrea showed signs of improvement. Now, on July 30th, 2004, Rusty Yates filed for divorce from Andrea. which obviously wasn't easy for her, but she had accepted her fate.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
She even started attending Bible studies with other women prisoners, and slowly her responsibilities at the prison increased. She started mopping the floors, tending the flower beds outside, and doing laundry. All these tasks gave Andrea comfort. But throughout the years, her defense attorneys worked hard to clear her name.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Of course, they knew Andrea murdered her children, but she wasn't some evil woman who was motivated to kill after watching a Law & Order episode, like Dr. Dietz had claimed. Andrea had been truly insane, and her defense worked hard with their appeals, which would finally pay off on January 6, 2005.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
That day, the Texas First Court of Appeals reversed Andrea's capital murder conviction, and she was granted a second trial.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
and many doctors swear by it but for whatever reason rusty wasn't sold and that day at 6 pm noticing her obvious mental decline andrea yates was readmitted to devereaux dr saeed wrote in his report patient is sad depressed tearful not talking she was assigned to unit 3 in a two-bed room where she had a roommate
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Following the trial, a member of the jury named Todd Frank would tell a news reporter, We understand that she knew it was legally wrong, but in her delusional mind, we believe that she thought what she did was right. Ultimately, the second jury accepted that Andrea's psychosis had impaired her ability to understand right from wrong.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
they were persuaded that Andrea truly believed Satan was speaking to her, and in an effort to save her children's lives, she killed them to make sure they were safe in heaven. Following this verdict, Andrea was taken to the Kerrville State Hospital in Kerrville, Texas, where she remains to this day.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
But Andrea's trial brought about many conversations about a number of things like mental health, how to care for mothers postpartum, and how things could have gone differently. What if the doctors who had been seeing her had realized just how severe her postpartum psychosis was? What if she had been more consistent with her medicine? Another conversation was about the Warnecki family.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
who had been corresponding with the Yates family for years, sending them Armageddon-type messages that only added to Andrea's religious delusions. Former followers of the Waranecki family would later come forward and say that as soon as they heard that Andrea Yates was associated with this family,
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Their hearts sank, because some of the main teachings of the Waranekis were that only a handful of people even make it into heaven, and that everyone else was going to spend an eternity suffering in hell. They created these scary religious views where they told people that everyone's going to hell, that time was running out, and that Satan was everywhere.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And during Andrea's trial, the psychiatrist even said that she believed that Andrea would never have drowned her children if she hadn't been hearing these messages from Michael Waranecki. Now, obviously, Michael Waranecki disputed these claims, but his former followers would later say that he had a way of getting into vulnerable people's minds.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And for any mentally insane person hearing these messages from someone they look up to, it's not going to be good for them.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
The young woman who was in the room with Andrea would later say that she was clearly detached from reality. It seemed as if she was simply just a body, like her spirit was missing.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
On April 23, 2002, Andrea's legal team released the following statement. On June 20, 2001, a tragedy of immense proportions occurred within the family of Andrea and Rusty Yates and their children Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary. The drowning deaths of these children have galvanized world attention on issues of women's mental health and the insanity laws.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
The lesson to be learned from Andrea Yates? Mental condition should be the catalyst of change. As a society, We must work together to better understand and deal with mental health issues."
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Hey, everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you so much for listening to part two of the Andrea Yates story and tuning in to Murder in America this week. As I said before, at the end of the last episode that we did on Andrea Yates, the story hits close to home because Courtney and I live in Houston. And, I mean, there's just so many emotions that this story brings out of a person.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
It's just a crazy story from start to finish. But, it's 2025 and we have some absolutely incredible episodes coming up in the next few weeks, months, honestly for the whole year. We've got almost the whole year planned out. And if you want early ad-free access to those episodes, consider joining us on Patreon. I know some people really don't like the ads.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
That's why we created the Patreon, so that people could subscribe to gain access to a fully ad-free experience. Also, there are bonus episodes available on Patreon, so if you love the show and you want to hear more episodes of Murder in America that will never be posted on our main feed, that's just another reason why you should consider signing up for our Patreon.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
As always, don't forget to follow us at Murder in America on Instagram. and listen to our new show, The Conspiracy Files, available on all streaming platforms. And yeah, until next week, guys, it's so great to have everybody here. Hope you have been having an incredible January so far. And from Courtney and I both, thanks for listening, and I'll catch you on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
On May 11th, about a week into her stay, Andrea told Dr. Saeed that she was finally feeling better and that she was no longer having hallucinations. said she wanted to go home and participate in outpatient therapy like she had done all the times before and surprisingly three days later on may 14th they granted her request andrea was once again discharged under the condition
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
that she continue outpatient therapy. On May 17th, Dr. Saeed wrote that Andrea was improved and that she had even started to slightly participate in her group therapy. During it, she opened up about her negative self-image and how it influenced her relationships. When asked what she enjoyed most being back at home, she replied, being back with family.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Then just eight days after being discharged from the hospital, she was also discharged from her outpatient therapy. The reasoning being patient, not suicidal. But Andrea Yates was not cured.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Throughout the past few years, she had been on this vicious cycle of being admitted to hospital, feeling better, getting discharged, attending group therapy, and then leaving once she felt like it no longer served her. But in every single instance, it was only a matter of time until Andrea Yates started to spiral again. She was sick, but no one seemed to have realized just how sick she truly was.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
And on June 4th, for whatever reason, her doctors took her off her antipsychotic medication, Aldol. And soon after, Andrea started hearing the voices again. One evening, while watching cartoons with her children, the characters started speaking to her directly. They were calling her a bad mother. At one point, she even heard them speaking directly to her children, telling them,
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Don't eat so much candy. Your mother's feeding you too much cereal. Here's Andrea herself describing this experience.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Her family could tell that Andrea wasn't doing well. On June 18th, 2001, Rusty even drove her back to Dr. Saeed's office and told him that Andrea wasn't getting better. In fact, she was getting much worse. Andrea had been off her antipsychotic medication for weeks now, but for some reason, they didn't put her back on.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
Strangely enough, they even reduced her antidepressant dosage from 450mg to 300mg. Now, why they would do this when she was clearly showing signs of a mental decline, we don't know. And apparently, Rusty even argued with the doctors about this, but they assured him that this was the appropriate dosage, and with that, He and Andrea left the hospital for the very last time.
Murder In America
EP. 185: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 2)
From there, Rusty would pick up Andrea's prescription, and that night, he watched as she took her medication. But antidepressants weren't going to help Andrea. She needed severe psychiatric help. Help that never came. Which brings us to June 20th, 2001.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
But Debbie and Mark were experts in their field, so they ended up working with Ghost Adventures on a number of their episodes. Having them on the show allowed them to get evidence of the paranormal in a way that they hadn't been able to do before, and Nick was fascinated with their craft. Over the years, he spent a lot of time with the couple, and he learned a lot from them as well.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
And I'm Courtney Browen.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
As a little background, Debbie and Mark were married in 1989, and from the looks of it, they seemed to be the perfect match. They had a lot of shared interests throughout their lives, like animals, Bruce Springsteen, and they both loved the very well-known show, The Sopranos. Now upon meeting each other, Mark learned that Debbie had a gift. she was able to connect with the afterlife.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Mark would later say, quote, "'Debbie has the gift of attracting spirits. "'She considers herself born with the natural ability "'to see, feel, and hear spirits. "'She also feels she vibrates on a level "'to glimpse into the nature realm,' end quote." And Debbie had had this gift for as long as she could remember. She grew up in a small New Jersey town, in a house that faced a cemetery.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
She believed her house was haunted, and as she grew up, she wanted to seriously uncover the truth when it came to spirits and the afterlife. She ended up studying at the Reno Psychic Institute to help develop her clairvoyant skills. and eventually she would meet her future husband, Mark. Now Mark always believed in the afterlife, but he had never had a paranormal experience.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
However, that would soon change. While he and Debbie lived in an apartment in Wayne, New Jersey, the couple started experiencing things. They would wake up in the middle of the night with deep scratches on their bodies. As they were hanging out in the living room, items in their home would fly off the shelves. And then at times, they would even see ghostly apparitions.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
From there, the couple would embark on their journey into the paranormal together.
Murder In America
201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
To be continued...
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
But despite everything, Mark and Debbie were very passionate about their jobs. Soon enough, they started traveling to some of the most haunted places in the world. And the more they worked within this industry, the more skilled they became. Eventually, they were big names in the paranormal, and they worked with the best of the best, including the widely popular TV show, Ghost Adventures.
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In 2008, Debbie praised Ghost Adventures for being unique, saying, "...there are a lot of people out there doing paranormal shows. They're a dime a dozen now. What makes this show unique is that they're going to some of the most haunted evil locations. If you really want to be frightened, they're doing the horror."
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Over the years, Nick spent a lot of time with the Constantinos. They would film together, do events together, but even off camera, he grew close to the couple. When he was in town, he would go hang out at their house, spending time with them, and they would frequently talk on the phone. And like with every person you spend time with, Nick began to pick up on how the couple operated.
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which is kind of how a lot of people describe their relationship. Debbie and Mark argued constantly, and it didn't matter who was around or what type of professional setting they were in. If one of them was upset, everyone was about to know about it.
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To start the interview off, we asked Nick what initially got him interested in this field.
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But despite the problems in their marriage, Debbie and Mark Constantino were very successful. Every time their faces came up on the TV, people loved them. However, the viewers had no idea just how troubled things were behind the scenes. The people who worked with them though, were well aware. In the fall of 2007, Mark and Debbie were asked to teach an EVP class at a community college.
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So in order for them to get publicity for the class, local news crew KTVN asked the couple to conduct many investigations to get people interested. So that's what they would do along with their friend Janice Oberding. But Janice said that after the investigation, on their ride home, the couple argued the entire way.
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Apparently, Mark complained that Debbie was trying to take all of the spotlight, that she controlled the entire thing and made it all about her. Now this friend of theirs, Janice, would later tell the Reno Gazette, quote, "...they were average people, and just because they believed in the paranormal, that doesn't make them crazy.
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She could yell and scream and they would fight, but I never saw either of them lift a hand."
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end quote but clearly there were things going on behind the scenes in march of 2014 debbie was arrested for domestic battery in reno according to a krnv article she had cut mark's arm with a knife after an argument about money according to mark's protective order he said quote she grabbed a knife and swiped at me i said i would call the cops she started screaming at me.
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She went into a bedroom and said that I threatened to rape her like she usually did. The cops were outside and heard her screaming. And this wasn't the first protective order sought out by Mark. In fact, in July of 2012, he filed an order citing that he was frightened Debbie would stab him while she was intoxicated. But one day later, he ended up dropping that order.
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But August of 2015 is when things started to get really bad for the Constantinos. It was July 7th. On that day, Debbie got a text from Mark saying that their dog had escaped from their yard. Now Debbie was a huge animal lover, so she immediately made her way home. But when she pulled up to their house, Mark had allegedly pulled her out of the car and started beating her.
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Sadly, their 23-year-old daughter Raquel also participated in the beating. Debbie had been beaten so brutally, it was reported that her nose had been broken. She also later stated that Mark had pulled her into their house and attempted to strangle her. He squeezed hard enough that she almost passed out. Debbie said that during the assault, he also threatened to slit her throat.
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Now from there, the police were called and Mark was ultimately arrested and charged with first degree kidnapping, first degree domestic battery and domestic battery by strangulation. Their daughter Raquel was also arrested and charged with first degree battery and first degree burglary. So as you can see, things had gotten really bad.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Following this incident, Debbie even called up Nick to update him on everything that was going on.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
It's also around this time when Debbie got into contact with her life coach named Rebecca Evans. According to Rebecca, in the last few months of Deborah's life, she was just trying to survive. Rebecca would later say, quote, it was a slow buildup, and I don't think in the beginning of their relationship they had those kind of problems.
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The years rolled on, and she said the domestic issues progressed. I was really scared for her." Then, about a week before her death, Debra called her life coach for the last time. Rebecca said, quote, She called me and she told me,
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i'm living on a couch but i don't care she said i'm so happy but even after this phone call rebecca was worried about her she would later say that she always wondered quote what's gonna happen to this girl but in their last conversation rebecca said that she was happy that debbie had finally found some peace Rebecca would later say, quote, she had hope the last time I saw her.
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She had hope when she left and we talked about all of the things that we could do, end quote. However, Rebecca had no idea that this would be their very last conversation. Now, like we mentioned, Debbie had called Nick to let him know what was going on and that if Mark called, he was not supposed to tell him where she was located.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
But shortly after this call from Debbie, Nick said that he was pretty surprised to see that he was getting a call from Mark.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
After high school, Nick went off to college at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. And from there, he started exploring his interests even more.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Nick had no idea that about 24 hours after hanging up the phone with Mark Constantino, that he would go on a killing spree. Over the last month of his life, Mark had lost control of everything. After getting arrested, he had lost his reputation, his wife, his money, and his career. And to add insult to injury, Debbie was clearly moving on with her life.
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After filing for divorce, she was posting on her social media and she looked really happy. She posted pictures with friends, getting her nails done, and living her life to the fullest. But not Mark. For weeks, he sat alone at his home in Reno, Nevada, spiraling.
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On Facebook, he vented that Debbie had taken all of her belongings out of the house, but left the ashes of their six-month-old daughter behind. He wrote, quote, "'How the fuck can someone do that?' End quote." Now eventually, he even moved out of their house and went to stay with their daughter Raquel. I guess being in their home was too much for him.
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And everyone could tell that Mark was struggling, but no one expected what would come next. Which brings us to September 22nd, 2015. Like we mentioned, Debbie had been telling everyone to keep her new address hidden from Mark. She feared for her life. But the one thing that kept her at peace was that Mark had no idea where she was. However, that would soon change.
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It's unclear who gave Mark Debbie's location, but Nick said that he was told it was a friend of theirs. And once Mark figured out the address, he grabbed his gun and made his way over. Inside the house at the time was Debbie and one of her roommates, 55-year-old Jimmy Anderson. Their other roommate, Summer Myers, was luckily at her boyfriend's house at the time.
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But as Mark pulled up to the house that day, he was full of rage. Now it's unclear exactly what happened next, We don't know if someone opened the door or if Mark barged his way inside, but we do know that the garage door was left open, so perhaps he entered the house that way. But upon entering the residence, Mark would first encounter Jimmy Anderson.
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He then pointed his gun at him and pulled the trigger. Jimmy Anderson had been shot directly in the head and he died right there in the hallway of his home. And it should be stated here that it's very likely that Debbie witnessed the entire thing. In the past, Debbie had claimed in interviews that when Mark was angry, he would have this darkness come over him, that his eyes would turn black.
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And I can imagine in that moment, Debbie saw just that. She likely feared that after murdering Jimmy, that Mark would then turn the gun on her. But strangely enough, that's not what would happen. At least, not at that moment. After murdering Jimmy, Mark would actually kidnap Debbie. He forced her into his car and started driving back to their daughter's apartment.
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And I can't help but think about what was said along that drive. I can imagine that Debbie was pleading with him to spare her life. She might have even told him exactly what she thought he wanted to hear. We can get back together. We can talk about things. But Mark was angrier than ever. Once they got back to their daughter's apartment, Debbie was forced inside.
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Their daughter Raquel wasn't home at the time and the only other person who knew Debbie was in danger was Jimmy Anderson. And he had just been shot dead. So at that time, no one knew where Debbie was. And no one was coming to save her.
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Nearby this apartment was a high school. And since this was a potential hostage situation, the school was put on lockdown and a SWAT team surrounded the apartment complex. But as they did, they heard the sound of three gunshots. Mark then yelled out to law enforcement, quote, give me 15 minutes to gather my thoughts or I'll kill her, end quote.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
For the next three hours, Mark would go back and forth with negotiators. They did everything they could to get him to release Debbie, but Mark wasn't complying. Little did they know, however, that Debbie was already dead. Mark had already, at this point, shot her in the face two times. So for those three hours, he had been sitting by her body trying to figure out what to do next.
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I'm sure he wrestled with the decision of whether to turn himself in or to kill himself. And ultimately, he chose the latter. Shortly before 1.30 p.m., the SWAT team outside of the apartment heard a single gunshot. And from there, Mark Constantino was no longer responding to them. And to their dismay, When they called out for Debbie Constantino, she wasn't answering them either.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
So at 1.30 p.m., the SWAT team used explosives to gain entry into the apartment. And it's there where they found the bodies of Mark and Debbie Constantino.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
But 10 years after the deaths of Jimmy Anderson and Mark and Debbie Constantino, Ghost Adventures would be in the media once again, this time involving conspiracy to commit murder. So let's rewind a bit, all the way back to the birth of Ghost Adventures.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Like we mentioned earlier, around 2007, Nick Groff decided that he and Zach Bagans were going to film at haunted locations around America, and he invited Aaron Goodwin to come along with them. Soon enough, the trio would be widely known across the world. But in the beginning, Aaron Goodwin wasn't sure if this was the right path for him. This industry can be dark.
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And Aaron said that for a while, he felt like some of that darkness was following him into his everyday life. At the time, he was married to a woman named Sheena. And when he would leave for filming, scary things would start happening around their home. Posters flying off the walls, the toilet seat mysteriously going up on its own. It was scary. And being the wife of a ghost hunter myself,
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
I've had similar experiences. But despite everything, Erin decided to stick with it.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Now, as for Victoria and Aaron, the two started off as friends, but over time, their friendship blossomed into a relationship. And in August of 2018, they finally made it official. On his Instagram page, Aaron posted a photo of the two holding hands. with a caption that read, quote, we have been friends and there for each other in tough times over the years.
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Now we realize it's bigger than that, end quote. On October 29th, 2019, Erin posted another photo of Victoria at Disneyland's castle with a black halo ring in front of her with the caption, quote, she said yes. Now on the Ghost Adventures Reddit fan page, fans congratulated the couple, but some were suspicious.
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One user wrote, quote, Now, anytime you're a public figure, people are going to have their opinions on your significant other, especially when you've built your fan base up for years. I remember when Colin and I first started dating, people hated me. But eventually they came around, and I kind of learned that that's just how it goes when you share your life online.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Which seemed to be the case for Aaron and Victoria. Although many of Aaron's fans supported him in their relationship, Victoria seemed to have a lot of haters.
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A lot of these users believe that Victoria was just using Aaron for his money, but others defended their relationship. One user wrote, quote, you guys should really leave Victoria and Aaron alone. I get it if you guys don't like her. There is obviously things that aren't great about her, but keep those feelings to yourself and let Aaron be happy.
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He's a very nice person that deserves to be with someone at this stage of life. And he picked Victoria. That's his choice. Messaging her family is fucked up and way out of line. The blog shouldn't condone that."
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Fans of Aaron's would even comment on his pictures that he seemed happier than ever, and maybe that was the case for him. But it's safe to say that his wife Victoria was not happy in her marriage, because unbeknownst to Aaron, Victoria had a secret pen pal named Grant Amato, a man who was in prison for brutally murdering his entire family.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Upon seeing Sylvie, Grant was immediately attracted to her. He wanted to get to know her more. But in order to talk to these girls online, you have to pay them. After all, this is their career. So Grant ended up sending her some money, and from there, they started a conversation. Following this, Grant felt a connection to Sylvie.
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In such a depressing time in his life, she brought him some happiness. So over the next few months, he continued to pay her for her time. During their conversations, Grant lied to Sylvie about many aspects of his life. He told her he drove a BMW, that he lived alone and that he was a successful gamer on Twitch. But in reality, Grant drove a Honda, lived with his parents and he was unemployed.
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But to keep up with these appearances,
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
grant continued to lavish sylvie with money and gifts in order to have a private conversation with her he had to purchase these tokens and at times he would buy around 600 tokens in a single night each of these tokens were about a dollar so there were nights when he spent six hundred dollars just to talk to her but in his mind he and sylvie had a special connection grant was in love
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
However, Sylvie obviously didn't feel the same. And after a while, Grant started asking her to send pictures and videos free of charge.
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But obviously, Sylvie wasn't okay with that. She wasn't talking to Grant because she liked him. She was talking to him because that's her job. It's how she made her living. So she wasn't going to give him anything for free. But this was a problem for Grant. He didn't have a lot of money to spend because he was unemployed. So soon enough, he started stealing money from his parents and his brother
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just so he could keep talking to her. And surprisingly, over the course of just a few months, Grant had stolen over $200,000 from his family. He had stole around 60,000 from his brother, Cody, and 150,000 from his father. And he had even taken out a loan on his parents' house. Now for a while, his parents didn't know what was going on, but of course they would eventually find out.
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And it was through these projects where Nick would meet the other future member of Ghost Adventures, Zach Bagans.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
For Chad and Margaret, they thought they were doing what was best for Grant. I'm sure they figured that kicking him out of the house would help him get his life together. If he was having to pay for his bills, his own rent and food, then maybe he'd understand how reckless he had been with their money. But that was not Grant's mindset.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
On January 24th, 2019, the day after his parents kicked him out, Grant made his way back over to their house. At the time, his mother Margaret was sitting at her desk on her computer. She had no idea that Grant had snuck his way inside or that he was creeping up behind her with a gun in his hand. In that moment, Grant lifted the gun and he shot his mother in the back of her head.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
And from there, he waited for his father to come home. When Chad finally arrived, he was unaware that his wife had been shot dead within the study. And as he walked into the kitchen, he suddenly encountered his son Grant.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
the son that he had just kicked out of their house i'm sure chad figured that grant was there to negotiate maybe to see if he could come back home but soon enough grant lifted his gun and he fired two shots into his dad's body but once chad was dead grant wasn't finished just yet he still had one more family member to kill, his brother Cody.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Using his father's phone, Grant texted his brother and told him to come right home after work. And later that night, he would. Cody pulled his vehicle into the garage. And when Grant heard the garage door open, he grabbed his gun. Cody, still wearing his nurse's scrubs, grabbed his things and started making his way inside when he suddenly saw his brother standing in the threshold.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
And just like his parents, Grant gunned him down. In that moment, he had successfully murdered his entire family, but as if he couldn't get any worse, Grant then decided to stage the murders as if it was the work of his brother Cody. He placed the gun near Cody's body, making it look like he had killed himself after murdering his parents. And then from there, Grant fled the scene.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
This story was huge at the time. The fact that someone could murder their entire family over a girl he met online was hard to believe. And when you think about all of the money he stole, all the lies and the secrecy, it's disturbing to think about. Then the pictures of the crime scene started circulating online.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
I remember seeing those, the pictures of Margaret at her computer, Chad lying in the kitchen, and his brother Cody curled up near the garage, how their blood covered the floors. And to think that this was the work of their family member, someone that they loved and provided for his entire life. And in the end, their lives were taken over something so stupid. Grant Amato was undoubtedly a monster.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
And this was the man that Victoria Goodwin started a secret pen pal relationship with. After the murders, Paramount Plus did a three-part documentary on the crime, and Victoria watched it. However, instead of being disgusted with Grant, Like most people are when hearing this story, she wasn't. In fact, soon after watching it, around May of 2024, she figured out how to get in contact with him.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Now at the time, her husband Aaron had been traveling to film the 29th season of Ghost Adventures, so Victoria had some time to herself. And during that time, she and Grant started writing to each other. With each letter that Victoria sent out, the two were growing closer, and eventually, the letters went from friendly to romantic.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
And all the while, Aaron Goodwin was completely unaware of what his wife was doing. He was away filming for ghost adventures. He was providing for them. And this is how Victoria repaid him. And from looking at social media, it's clear that Aaron was still in love with his wife. In 2025, he posted a picture of them kissing after a round of mini golf.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Victoria even posted a picture of his hand on her leg with the caption, quote, cuddle puddle with my boys, end quote. She was clearly still playing the role of the loving wife. However, unbeknownst to Erin, several months before these photos were posted, Victoria had been texting Grant about hiring a hitman to kill her husband. On October 2nd, 2024, she and Grant had the following conversation.
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Am I a bad person? Why? Because I chose to end his existence, not divorce.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
I'm so anxious lolol. I can't believe it's happening. Like, how did I get to this point?
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Grant Amato was sitting in his prison cell, anxiously waiting to hear the news of Erin's murder. Victoria was doing the same, but at her home in Nevada. But the two would wait and wait and wait with no news from Gordo. Grant was clearly scared. He even texted Gordo and told him to block his number, I guess so they couldn't trace it back to him. But later that night,
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Florida corrections officers stormed into Grant's cell and confiscated his contraband cell phone. And from there, he and Victoria's entire plan was discovered. Now we have no information on what happened with the hit man or even who he was, but luckily, Erin Goodwin made it out alive. Their plan had failed.
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And over the next few months, investigators would begin building their case against Victoria. But I can't help but wonder what was going through her mind at the time. She and Grant had been texting back and forth for months. Then the very night that her husband was supposed to get murdered, he suddenly stopped all communication with her.
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And from there, Victoria went on with her life as if nothing happened. Eventually, Erin would come home from his filming trip and she pretended like everything was fine, like she didn't just try to have him killed. A few weeks later, she even posted a picture of Erin on her social media with the caption, quote, "'Does anyone recognize this guy?' He cute.
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On New Year's, she posted a picture of them kissing. She posted him again on Valentine's Day. To the outside world, Victoria and Aaron had a great marriage, but Victoria's beautiful life was about to come crashing down.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Now, at the time of Victoria's arrest, Aaron was actually in Los Angeles filming for Ghost Adventures, and he still had no idea what was going on. But soon enough, he would get a call that would forever change his life. That day... a Clark County police officer called him to let him know that Victoria was in jail for putting out a hit on him.
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And according to TMZ, Ghost Adventures had actually been in the middle of filming when Aaron got the call, so it's all on camera. Now, Zach Bagans has since stated that he's not sure if that footage will ever be released. As you can imagine, this was a very sensitive moment in Aaron's life. He was completely shocked. This was his wife, someone he thought he knew, but clearly that wasn't the case.
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So Nick decided to put his passions together, film and the paranormal.
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201: NEVADA - The "Ghost Adventures" Murders (feat. Nick Groff)
Over the past few weeks, everyone following this case has been waiting to see what will happen with Victoria Goodwin. And on April 12th, she pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit murder. In exchange for a guilty plea, prosecutors agreed to drop the charge of solicitation to commit murder. And she's scheduled to be sentenced on June 24th of this year.
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Right now, she faces anywhere from two to 10 years in prison.
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So together, Nick Groff, Zach Bagans, and Aaron Goodwin traveled around the country filming at some of the most haunted locations in America, and they would find exactly what they were looking for, ghosts. Nick said that throughout their filming, they had many haunted experiences, all of which were captured on their cameras.
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When they were finally finished with their trip, Nick started looking through all of the footage and he couldn't believe what they found.
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Now, over the years, as ghost adventures got bigger and bigger, they ended up meeting a lot of people within their industry, from psychics to demonologists. And eventually, they were introduced to a couple of married investigators named Debbie and Mark Constantino. Debbie and Mark were EVP specialists.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
31-year-old Jessica Kelly was actually Fabian's cousin, and on August 15, 2016, she was released from prison. Now, like many people in this story, Jessica had a long rap sheet. Her convictions included two felony charges of trafficking controlled substances, DWI, assault upon a peace officer, resisting arrest, and conspiracy to commit criminal sexual penetration.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
She got that while in prison where she was apparently planning to sexually assault a female inmate. So, a real stand-up citizen here. But by 2016, Jessica had been in and out of prison for over a decade. And now she was free.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
On August 21, 2016, Jessica Kelly's loved ones decided to throw a huge family barbecue for her to celebrate her release from prison. But the family made sure not to invite Fabian. You see, over the years, he had been a problem at these family get-togethers. He was known to have a volatile temper. He had even threatened some family members in the past, so they chose not to invite him.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But when Fabian found out about this, he was furious, and he decided that he was going to show up anyway. That evening, everyone was drinking and having a good time at the barbecue when all of a sudden, Fabian showed up. He was clearly angry about not being invited, so they confronted him and asked him to leave.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But immediately upon doing so, a fight ensued, and Fabian ended up fighting a pregnant woman who punched him so hard he got a black eye. Following this fight, he was even angrier than he was before, and as he left the house, he screamed out that he was going to come back with his brothers.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, according to court documents, Fabian's brothers were founding members of the TCK gang in New Mexico, a gang that has had an extremely violent, homicidal history. And apparently, Fabian and his brothers were still active in the gang. So, after he threatened to bring his brothers to the barbecue, the family was worried.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They even put some armed men outside to guard the doors, just in case he came back. Now, throughout that entire night, Fabian kept texting his family at the barbecue, threatening them. And they had every right to be frightened, because cell phone records would later show that Fabian called his brothers over 20 times that evening. He was also researching gun purchases.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But luckily, Fabian never came back to the family barbecue that night. However, I think the story goes to show just how dangerous he was, how volatile. And this is the man that Michelle Martins chose to have a relationship with. The man she let move into her home. Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you wanna help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
that week michelle had also taken jessica and fabian to this casino in town it was around midnight on a school night but victoria was in the car with them while michelle and victoria were in the car in the casino parking lot fabian and jessica decided to break into some cars eventually a security guard approached them so they quickly ran back to the car where michelle and victoria were waiting for them and from there they made their way back home
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
as you can see michelle knew that fabian and jessica were bad news yet she continued to hang out with them she continued to let them stay at her apartment and during that time fabian and jessica were doing a lot of meth together right there in the apartment with michelle's young children however the meth was making jessica extremely paranoid on the night of august 22nd jessica even went into michelle's bedroom and woke fabian up
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
She asked him if he would read the Bible with her because she was so scared, but it didn't seem to help because the following day was August 23rd, a day that would change everything.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, believe it or not, Michelle's mother, Pat, had actually been calling Michelle that entire afternoon. She saw Michelle's text about picking up Victoria from the bus stop, and she was willing to do it. But Michelle wasn't answering her phone calls. So it's not like Jessica was the only person who could have picked Victoria up that day. Michelle's mom easily could have too.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But they decided to give that responsibility to Jessica instead. which is crazy because not only had Jessica been smoking meth, but they had both seen how paranoid she had been that day, and still, they decided to leave a 10-year-old in her care. At 3 p.m., Michelle and Fabian made a trip to the liquor store.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
From there, they went to a friend's house, and while they were there, Michelle sent a text to Jessica.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But Jessica didn't respond to her text, so a few minutes later, she sent another text.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But again, no answer. Jessica had been too paranoid to check her texts. Back in the apartment, she even decided to keep the apartment's front door open so if someone started walking up the stairs, she would be able to see them. Clearly, Jessica was spiraling.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
At 5 p.m., Victoria spoke to her grandparents over the phone. John and Pat Martins had called to wish her a happy birthday, and according to them, Victoria sounded happy. She told them all about how her day went, how she ate cupcakes with her class, and how they sang her happy birthday. Then from there, they told her they loved her, and the call ended.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They had no idea that that would be the very last conversation they would ever have with their granddaughter. A few minutes after hanging up the phone, Fabian and Michelle finally returned back to the apartment. I'm sure Victoria was happy to see her mother. But sadly, after just a few minutes of being there, they left again to go pick up drugs. And this time they were gone for about an hour.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, inside the apartment, Victoria walked over to Jessica and said, Did you know it's my 10th birthday? Jessica would later say that she felt bad for Victoria. No one had celebrated her. Her own mother had only been home a couple of minutes before leaving. So, Jessica pulled out her wallet and gave Victoria $45, which is like a million dollars to a 10-year-old.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
However, that too would soon be taken away from her.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
It's August of 2006 in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and 25-year-old Michelle Martins is just weeks away from giving birth. But if you were to have asked her, she would have denied being pregnant at all. For whatever reason, Michelle wouldn't acknowledge the fact that she was with child. Maybe it's because the baby's father wasn't in her life. Or maybe she just wasn't ready to become a mom.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Early that next morning at 4.30 a.m., August 24th, there was some commotion outside the Arroyo Villas apartment complex. Michelle Martin's neighbors opened up their front door, and there they saw Michelle with a huge bloody gash on her forehead. Standing next to her was her boyfriend, Fabian. The couple told their neighbors that their roommate, Jessica Kelly, had attacked them with a tire iron.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Even worse, Michelle's daughter, Victoria, was still inside the apartment with Jessica. So from here, they called 911. Here's that 911 call, but it's a little hard to hear.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But Michelle wouldn't be able to deny it forever. On August 23, 2006, she started having contractions. And while she was at her house, all by herself, Michelle delivered a beautiful little girl named Victoria. Michelle called her her miracle child because despite not going to an OBGYN or taking prenatal vitamins, Victoria still came out as healthy as could be.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
However, things weren't always easy for them. According to Michelle, Victoria's father wanted nothing to do with his daughter, so they were all on their own. Now, Michelle was born in 1981, and she was described as having a low IQ and was known to be extremely trusting and vulnerable. Originally from New York, Michelle moved to Texas before eventually settling in New Mexico.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But luckily for her, she did have the help of her parents, which she was really grateful for, given she was a single mother.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But from here, the detectives want to know what the hell happened. There is a 10-year-old little girl murdered and dismembered in the apartment with three grown adults. And just before this, one of those adults tried to kill the other two with a tire iron. So, how did we get here? When the detectives ask Fabian this, he breaks down in tears, telling them that he has no idea what happened.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
He said he and Michelle went to sleep that night, and the next thing he knew, his cousin Jessica was in their bedroom trying to kill them. He said he didn't even know that Victoria had been murdered, but the detectives weren't buying it. In fact, they spoke to some neighbors who reported that the night before, they were awoken to sounds of screaming and banging coming from apartment 808.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They also heard things dragging around. So, the fact that they heard that when Fabian supposedly didn't just doesn't add up.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show. than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, at the time of Fabian's interview, Michelle Martins is also being interviewed, and she's being a lot more open about what happened on August 23rd, her daughter's 10th birthday.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
So, after watching her daughter get dismembered, Michelle said that she made everyone tacos. Then she went into her room to get some sleep. Disturbingly, Michelle also admits that she and Fabian had sex that night, after the dismemberment.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
That year, Michelle started dating a man named David Hernandez, and over the course of a few months, he started spending a lot of time with Michelle and her children.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Michelle said that after that, she went to sleep. The next thing she knew, Jessica was in her room holding a tire iron. According to Michelle, Jessica feared that she would tell someone what happened. And while in the bedroom, Jessica chillingly asked her, Do you believe in God? Michelle said that she knew right then that Jessica was trying to kill her.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, we don't know if Michelle knew about her new boyfriend's criminal record, but a few years prior, in May of 2013, David had been driving around when he spotted a four-year-old girl in a parking lot, and at that moment, he decided to kidnap her. David snatched the little girl up and sped off down the road. But luckily, the police were nearby.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They ended up catching up to him, but David didn't pull over. He continued running from the police until he ultimately crashed his vehicle. Now, following this, he ended up getting charged with kidnapping, child abuse, and auto theft. But surprisingly, he was never actually convicted of anything.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Apparently, about a month after the incident, the charges were dropped after the four-year-old girl and her family moved out of state. And I guess because they weren't going to testify against him, David Hernandez walked free.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
The detectives then confront Michelle with a disturbing statement, that this wasn't the first time she had let men rape her daughter.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Following the murder, Albuquerque Police Chief Gordon Elder Jr. stated, This homicide is the most gruesome act of evil I have ever seen in my career, a complete disregard for human life and a betrayal by a mother. Now, soon after Michelle Martin's arrest, her parents found out what had happened and they were completely shocked.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They had just spoken to Victoria on the phone to wish her a happy birthday. So, never in a million years did they expect to get this news. And when they heard the details, they were beside themselves. According to them, Michelle had been a good mother, but all of that changed when Fabian and Jessica stepped into the picture.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Her parents said, Michelle didn't change until these people inducted themselves into her life. What kind of power they had over her, I don't know.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
we didn't know our daughter to be anybody that would do something like this and if there's evidence and she's found guilty then she deserves to be punished as for victoria they claim that she never mentioned sexual or physical abuse and always seemed happy they believed she may have stayed quiet because of her love for her mother pat stated it's probably why she never said nothing she didn't want to get her in trouble
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
now when the word spread that a 10 year old girl had been brutally murdered the community of albuquerque was completely devastated on august 26th friends and neighbors built a memorial underneath a tree outside the arroyo villa's apartment it was filled with teddy bears flowers and candles people hugged prayed and cried as they remembered the life of victoria some even sang happy birthday as it was the day of her birthday when she had been brutally killed
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Soon after, another memorial was erected at Petroglyph Elementary School, and school officials issued a statement that read, Victoria is in our thoughts and prayers as we hold our children just a little tighter on this sad day. On August 29, 2016, hundreds gathered for a public funeral service for Victoria held at the Copper Point Church.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Motorcycle officers escorted a white hearse that contained her remains.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
When confronted with this new evidence that proved Michelle and Fabian were not present during Victoria's rape and murder, the DA's office had no choice but to drop their murder charges.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, even though they had still not caught Victoria's killer, Fabian Gonzalez would go to trial for his part in the crime. As with Michelle Martin's, the first-degree murder and rape charges were dropped, but he still faced charges of reckless child abuse resulting in death, tampering with evidence, and conspiracy to tamper with evidence.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
And like with any trial, the prosecution would paint the story of what they believed happened. And one of their witnesses was Jessica Kelly, Fabian's cousin. So, based on what was said at trial, we're going to go back to the night of August 23rd, 2016.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Jessica said that she waited a few minutes before going into Victoria's bedroom. But when she did, she said that she saw Victoria on the ground in front of her TV. She was lying on her back. And at first glance, it looked like she was sleeping. But Jessica said that she checked her pulse and there was none.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now, when asked why she didn't call the police, Jessica said that she had a bad relationship with law enforcement. After a decade of being in and out of prison, she figured that they would just pin it on her, so she didn't call for help. She also said that she was afraid the man would come back to hurt her children. So, she just left Victoria there, dead on her bedroom floor.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But eventually, she heard Fabian and Michelle outside. Out in the parking lot of the Arroyo Villa's apartment complex, Fabian and Michelle were sitting in the car, enjoying their meth high as they listened to music. Upon hearing them, Jessica said that she ran into Victoria's room, wrapped her up in a blanket, and then brought her outside. Now, Fabian and Michelle would corroborate that next part.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They said that as they were sitting in the car, they saw Jessica come out, holding Victoria in that blanket. She didn't come out to the car, she was just standing on the second story, holding her. But because they were so high on drugs, they didn't realize Victoria was dead. They just thought she was sleeping.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
So from here, Jessica said that she took over. Fabian went into the bedroom to check on Michelle while she started cleaning up. She said she wiped the blood off Victoria's body and she even put her pink pajamas back on. She then wrapped her body up in some trash bags, then a blanket, and she carried Victoria over to the bathroom.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
After placing her in the bathtub, Jessica got a bowl and filled it with soapy water. She then went to Victoria's room and attempted to clean the blood out of the carpet. From there, she put some bloody towels into the washing machine. Now, at this point, Fabian came out of the bedroom and Jessica said that he cleaned off the bloody knives and then put them back into the knife block.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But investigators would later find pieces of flesh still attached to it, as well as Fabian's fingerprints. By this point, they had been dismembering Victoria for hours, and it's here where they decided that they were going to dump her body out in the mesa. However, those plans would soon change. In her paranoid state, Jessica said she lost it.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
After hours of dismembering Victoria, with her blood still soaked into the carpet, Jessica feared that it would only be a matter of time until the police figured out what happened and she was sent right back to prison. So, right then, she decided that she was going to kill Fabian and Michelle. In court, Jessica explained her reasoning behind this.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
So Jessica went into Michelle's bedroom and asked for their phones. I guess she didn't want them calling the police as she was about to murder them, but obviously Fabian and Michelle were confused. However, they did give them to Jessica and she placed their phones in her back pocket and grabbed the tire iron. Then Jessica looked at Michelle and asked, do you believe in God?
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Before bashing in her head. According to Jessica, that's when she told Michelle that her daughter was dead. And from there, the two continued to struggle for a couple of minutes before Fabian took the tire iron and he and Michelle ran outside. As they did, neighbors heard some commotion and within minutes the police were on their way. But they just thought it was some sort of domestic dispute.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
And this wasn't the only time that someone had sent in a tip about the well-being of Michelle's children. In fact, on March 14, 2015, about two weeks before the tip about David was sent in, someone else had called a child abuse hotline to report that both Victoria and her brother Matthew had poor hygiene, dirty clothes, and that they had been improperly disciplined by a grandparent.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They had no idea what they were about to walk into. Back inside the apartment, Jessica was spiraling. And here's what happened next.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Victoria's loved ones were happy with the verdict, but Fabian's defense clearly wasn't. They believed that Jessica Kelly had fooled everyone. His defense attorney would later say, and she's probably laughing now at the fact that the state of New Mexico accepted her, her version of what happened. Now, during Fabian's sentencing, the prosecution wanted the maximum sentence of 40 years.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
But before handing down the sentence, Judge Leos allowed Victoria's grandfather, John Martens, to read his victim impact statement.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
now this report also said that michelle and a grandparent consumed alcohol while caring for the children once again the report was handed over to the albuquerque police department but this time they actually looked into it according to apd they went to the children's school and separately interviewed both victoria and matthew and during their interviews they found no signs of physical sexual or emotional abuse there were no bruises no dirty clothes and the children appeared to be clean and well taken care of
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Now as for Victoria's mom, Michelle Martins, many people couldn't understand why she would have given a false confession. Why would she tell police she was letting Fabian and Jessica rape her daughter while she watched if it wasn't true? Why implicate yourself in her murder if that wasn't true?
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Well, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Wellner determined that Michelle had certain personality traits that made her susceptible to false confessions.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
dr welner also found michelle to be extremely vulnerable and described her as a people pleaser he went on to say that she had a low iq and a history of trauma and drug abuse her family members confirmed that michelle was known to lie and she had told one major lie while she was pregnant with victoria as she had denied she was pregnant until the day she gave birth
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
during her confession it appeared as if michelle was just agreeing with the detectives and not providing facts on her own dr wellner believed that michelle did not understand that she was incriminating herself in the crime when she claimed to have witnessed the murder he said she was falsely saying she was there she was falsely saying she saw things falsely saying she heard things she was saying things while believing she was actually placing blame on other people which she was but she was also including herself in the responsibility
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
On June 29th, 2018, Michelle Martins ended up taking a plea deal. She pleaded guilty to one count of reckless child abuse resulting in death. DA Torres stated that although Michelle was not a murderer, she did contribute to an unsafe environment for her children.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
an environment that allowed her daughter to be killed, and he believed she needed to be held accountable for her responsibility in the crime. So in November of 2022, Michelle Martins was sentenced to 12 years in prison. So now we get to the last person in the story, Jessica Kelly. And in my opinion, she's the biggest monster of them all.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
When she took the stand at Fabian's trial, she cried because she said she loved her cousin and testifying against him was hard for her. But when it came to talking about what happened to Victoria, Jessica Kelly showed no emotion whatsoever.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Interestingly, in the following year, in 2016, Michelle Martins actually made two reports to the child abuse hotline about her own son, Matthew. In those reports, she alleged that while under the care of Matthew's father, he was left with an unknown babysitter, and that he had poor hygiene. Once again, APD went to their school to interview him, but they found no evidence of abuse.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Jessica Kelly's 44-year sentence means she will likely spend the rest of her life in prison. She will not be eligible for release until 2066, when she's 81 years old.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
The official report stated, In the course of three investigations, both Victoria and her sibling were interviewed at school and at home. Each child was interviewed separately from their sibling, and all interviews of the children were conducted outside the presence of Michelle Martins and the sibling's biological father.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Both children were asked questions about physical and sexual abuse, and neither child made any disclosures of physical or sexual abuse in any of the three investigations. So, based on these reports, there did seem to be some instability within their family, but nothing serious enough to remove Victoria and Matthew from their home.
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then there's that prison phone call she made to her mother where she said that that unknown man needs an attorney now again these are just our opinions we aren't experts and we don't have all the answers here but we can't help but speculate when it comes to a case like this especially since the person who raped and murdered victoria is still out there and we're interested to hear what y'all our listeners think what are your theories let us know on our social media or by commenting on our episode itself
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
A later internal review would claim that CYFD investigated the claims thoroughly and in accordance with state policy and procedure.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
The Albuquerque Police Department is urging anyone with information to contact Crimestoppers at 505-843-7867. And in Victoria's honor, this week we will also be making a donation to Prevent Child Abuse America, an incredible organization that aims to protect our nation's youth. You can find them at preventchildabuse.org.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Hey everybody, thank you so much for listening to this episode of Murder in America. Weirdly enough, I am recording this episode from Berlin, Germany, so I'm overseas right now.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
This is an absolutely horrific story, and Courtney and I hate having to tell these stories and go through these crimes, but we clearly have so many problems in America, cultural problems, problems with the law and how the law is enforced, and how these things keep happening is just mind-blowing to me.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
And the project that I'm working on right now deals with these sorts of things on a massive scale. So yeah, sometimes you just read through these episodes and I know you guys listen to them and it just leaves you feeling a little empty inside. But if you enjoy the work that we do here on Murder in America and you want to help support the show, please consider joining us on Patreon.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
On Patreon, you can get early ad-free access to all of our main feed episodes. So if you don't like the ads, join us on Patreon. And also, if you love the show and you're out of episodes and you've never signed up for Patreon, you can get access to an entire library of bonus episodes immediately when you sign up. These episodes will never go live on our main feed.
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EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
They're really, really important stories that we're continuing to tell on there. And Courtney and I just want to say thank you guys so much for supporting our work there. We have a huge team behind the scenes and you guys have helped so much. Don't forget to follow us on social media at Murder in America to see photos from every case that we cover.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
And once again, leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Those are extremely important. They help us so much, and we love hearing from y'all. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I know this was a heavy one, but to be fair, all these stories are heavy in their own ways. It's Colin here, and I'll catch y'all next week.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
Michelle must have known that her family wouldn't approve of this because she kept her new relationship a secret, which, according to Michelle, was Fabian's idea. But that summer, there was one instance where Michelle's parents came over unannounced, while Fabian was in the apartment.
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
When Michelle looked through the peephole and saw her parents at the door, she rushed Fabian over to her bedroom and made him hide in a closet until her parents left.
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maybe she knew that her parents wouldn't approve of him or maybe she was scared that they'd look into his criminal record because of course fabian gonzalez was also a criminal his rap sheet dated all the way back to 2004 and included charges of felony child abuse battery involving great bodily harm driving while intoxicated and resisting arrest
Murder In America
EP. 202: NEW MEXICO - RAPED & MURDERED ON HER 10TH BIRTHDAY: The Story of Victoria Martens
In August of 2014, Fabian was charged with assaulting his girlfriend as she drove with their young child in the backseat. In February of 2015, Fabian pled guilty to two misdemeanor charges and received two years supervised probation under the New Mexico Department of Corrections.
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Alex Sanchez, the New Mexico Department of Corrections Deputy Secretary of Administration, told KRQE in August 2016, �We were not aware of this plea agreement until this morning it came to our attention. We never received the documentation to say he had entered into this agreement.�
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Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
So when Antonio and Shamika crossed paths, they had a lot in common. Their shared traumas made them feel that they weren't alone, and eventually the two would go on to have two sons together. By 2010, there were four children living in their home, Relisha and Irving Jr., from Shamika's previous relationship and the two sons she shared with Antonio.
Murder In America
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Now, one would think, after growing up in such unstable environments, that they would want to create a better life for their kids. But sadly, history here would repeat itself. In 2010, Relisha was four years old. She was described as a natural caregiver. and she enjoyed taking care of her younger brothers.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
It was said that she would often run their baths for them, making sure it was the perfect temperature. She would also scold them when they ate too much candy. She took such good care of her brothers, her nickname was Lil Mama. Family was everything to Relisha, and she took her role as big sister seriously. As she grew up, Antonio Wheeler took on the role of Relisha's father.
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despite not being blood related he would later say quote she was real helpful she was always happy she kept the family happy she was the spirit for the family end quote from day one antonio loved relisha like she was his own daughter she was intelligent independent and according to her aunt ashley full of sass and spunk she was a typical kid she enjoyed riding bikes and racing her brothers she loved to dance and her favorite color was purple
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
But sadly, life within their home wasn't the life that Relisha deserved.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program, so if you If you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook, and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much, helps us grow the show.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all. But let's get back to the story. According to the staff at Payne Elementary, Relisha adjusted well, and she was a great student. She enjoyed making crafts, socializing, and just being a kid.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
However, by 2012, Relisha and her family faced homelessness after they were evicted from their Congress Heights apartment for breaching a tenant contract. At first, they went to live with Shamika's sister, Ashley, in her one-bedroom apartment. But as you can imagine, moving two adults and four children into a small space was cramped, to say the least.
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But Shamika's sister Ashley said that she didn't mind. After all, she didn't want them going to a homeless shelter. And as for the children, they loved living with their aunt Ashley. For Relisha, anything was better than the apartments they had been living in. In fact, after Relisha was born, she had lived with Shamika at an Edgewood apartment complex that was frequented by gun violence and gangs.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
At one point, it was reported that the police had been called out due to a man wandering around with a gun. When the police arrived, the man started shooting at anyone and everyone around Edgewood, and he ended up wounding seven people in the process. So life with Aunt Ashley was much better.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Unfortunately, Ashley Young knew that she wouldn't be able to keep her family members at her small apartment due to living in subsidized housing, which limits the amount of people allowed to live in the home. So this could only be temporary. and eventually suggested to Antonio that they start looking around at the local homeless shelters.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Of course, Antonio didn't want to go to a shelter, but Shamika insisted, stating that the weather was too cold outside to be homeless with four children.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
It was reported that the families lived in old hospital rooms with cart beds. There was a bathroom with a toilet and a sink, but if you wanted to shower, you had to go down the hall, where other strangers were hanging out. There was also no dedicated playground for the 600 children who lived at the shelter during the time Relisha arrived with her family.
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so children often played with boxes outside near the city street with the condition of this shelter there were numerous reported incidents of assault fights and domestic violence the lack of security made it a hot spot for drug deals and addiction the halls were filled with people shooting up or high on drugs in interviews people compared the interior to a horror movie and admitted that there were still boxes of medical records and office supplies scattered throughout the building
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
When Relisha and her family moved there, they hated it, especially Relisha. When she went to visit her Aunt Ashley, she would sometimes fake asthma attacks just so she could stay there. Relisha referred to the shelter as the G and the Trap House, complaining that the food was terrible and the rooms were infested with creatures.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
In fact, several residents issued complaints with the Washington Legal Clinic citing mice and bed bug infestations, heating outages, and wild animals being found inside closets and bathrooms. Berlisha often begged to go to her grandmother, Melissa Young's house. She wanted to live anywhere other than the shelter, going as far as to fake an illness just so she didn't have to go back.
Murder In America
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Antonio said quote, we used to come in late for dinner from wandering around at the mall or at a playground when we didn't want the kids at the shelter Me and a lot of other parents would take our kids to another playground or whatever. So sometimes we were running late and he would put our food out for us and like, we can open our room door in the kitchen, like right there.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Like I could stick my head out and get the food. So Relisha, she always wanted to help out. Daddy, I'll go get the food. I just opened the door and watch her get the food. He would give her the food. I'd shut the door. No extra, no nothing, none of that."
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Khalil was employed with the Community Partnership for the Prevention of Homelessness, a nonprofit that ran the shelter under a contract with the city of Washington, D.C. According to sources, the organization did not hire convicted criminals, and although a background check was conducted, he was still somehow allowed to work there.
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report that came out in september 2014 stated tcp conducted a pre-employment criminal background check on mr khalil tatum despite prior felony convictions for burglary and breaking and entering dc law did not not prohibit mr tatum from working at the family shelter in close quarters with its residents mr tatum was screened for his position consistent with the requirements of current law
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was not in a safety sensitive position as defined by the child and youth safety and health omnibus amendment act according to the podcast through the cracks john quillen hill stated that the dc general family shelter got into some trouble in 2010 after a report came out that stated staff members solicited sex from the residents in exchange for favors but the favors were everyday essentials like extra milk or juice for their children or more blankets for their beds when it got cold
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Khalil's wife, Andrea Tatum, was described as outgoing, outspoken, and loved to laugh. She had successfully recovered from substance abuse addiction, raised five children, and dedicated a lot of her time to religion. She worked at the Glorious Health Club, an LGBTQ plus establishment that rented cheap rooms to members.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Although she faced many hardships in her life, Andrea was sober, and her life had really improved. In her free time, she loved spending time with her grandchildren, taking them to the movies, playground, and museums. She also volunteered at homeless shelters and helped out at her church.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Now, she and Khalil married in July of 1990, and from the outside looking in, they seemed to have a good marriage. They would take vacations, Khalil bought her a new car, and they always talked about their plans after they retired together. But like with every marriage, they had their own problems. Andrea stuck by Khalil's side every time he was incarcerated. She supported his dreams.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
She wanted to dedicate her time to families in need, and Khalil wanted to help young black men in his neighborhood. But despite having issues in his personal life, Khalil never let it affect his spirit, especially at work.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Washington, DC, the city and capital of the United States, full of history, iconic landmarks, and world-class museums. From the White House to the Lincoln Memorial, the city remains a living tribute to our nation's past. Each year, millions of tourists come in to explore its rich history, cultural diversity, and scenic beauty.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Throughout their time at the D.C. General Shelter, Shamika's sister, Ashley Young, admitted that her sister started to distance herself. Ashley believed that Shamika was upset that they weren't allowed to live with her, and although she still saw the children, Relisha hardly ever visited.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
When she questioned Shamika on Relisha's whereabouts, she learned that Relisha was spending more time with a man she called her godfather.
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ashley found it odd because her fiance melvin was relish's godfather however ashley said she never pressed for more information ashley told inside edition quote i wouldn't question her much if you don't feel like you owe me an explanation because you're her mother then i won't ask no more i should have questioned it end quote
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However, for some residents of Washington, D.C., the allure of the city's political power is overshadowed by high crime rates, homelessness, and the skyrocketing rent prices, which was definitely the case for the Rudd family in 2014. After being evicted from their apartment, 8-year-old Relisha Rudd and her family were forced to move into the D.C. General Family Shelter.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Khalil's grooming of the eight-year-old got so bad that Relisha would get upset on the rare occasion that she wasn't allowed to hang out with him. She would ask her parents why she couldn't go with her goddaddy. Relisha's aunt said that sometimes when Relisha was at her house, she would ask to use her phone so she could call Khalil.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
There was clearly an attachment there, and at that age, she clearly didn't realize the danger she was in. After all, Khalil not only gave her attention, but he also gifted her things that she had never had before, something most kids in the shelter would never get. Her time spent with him also meant that she didn't have to be at the shelter, which clearly wasn't an ideal place for kids her age.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
However, no one questioned why Khalil refused to also take Relisha's three younger brothers on their outings. It was always just her. Each time Relisha returned home, she would have wonderful stories about her time with Khalil, where they went, who she played with.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to her family members, Relisha often played with Khalil's own granddaughter and said that both Khalil and his wife, Andrea, took great care of her. There was never anything negative said about her time away from the shelter. According to Khalil's stepdaughter, Alexis Kelly, Khalil was incredibly smart, funny, caring, and well-dressed. He knew how to interact and speak with people.
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If anybody needed anything, Khalil would be the first to offer the shirt off his back. He was charming and a good liar, something that often worked in his favor. Now, the D.C. General Shelter had a policy that each night a staff member would conduct bed checks to make sure all of their residents were accounted for.
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However, reports indicated that Shamika's children weren't accounted for about 50% of the time. But the record keeping at D.C. General wasn't organized, so there was no way to know which children were in the room and which were not. And in reality, they weren't even physically going into the rooms to check. which leads us to February of 2014.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
One day, according to the Washington Post, eight-year-old Relisha told staff members at the Playtime project that she wanted to speak with someone. Site manager Danielle Rothman said she walked Relisha to a private room with two other volunteers, and she admitted that she had been feeling sad. But when they asked her to elaborate, she didn't mention anything unusual.
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There was no mention of Khalil, and after a few minutes, she happily walked back to the play area with the other children after receiving a snack and a new pair of pajamas. But just one week later, Relisha Rudd would vanish from the shelter, never to be seen again.
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If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to Relisha's stepfather, Antonio Wheeler, it had been Relisha's mother, Shamika, who suggested they go to the shelter.
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On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know.
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everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real it's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories we're presenting you people with facts telling you the story walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with murder in america
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and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
after being forced out of their small apartment the family had crashed on family members couches but each time they were put out until eventually they exhausted all their options with nowhere else to turn shamika decided it would be best to move into the shelter temporarily until they could get their feet back on the ground
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to the Washington Post, one day before Relisha was seen with Khalil at the Holiday Inn Express on February 25th, Payne Elementary staff contacted Shamika due to Relisha's five unexcused absences at school. The article stated, quote, Pain officials scheduled a parent conference, which is required by law for truant students.
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At that March 5th meeting, school officials talked with Relisha's mother about plans to connect her with additional support services to ensure better attendance, according to the source, end quote. Apparently, Shamika had mentioned to school officials that Relisha had started suffering from severe migraines and was being seen by a man named Dr. Tatum.
Murder In America
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The social worker immediately notified the D.C. police, and when they arrived, Shamika was taken into a conference room at the D.C. General and questioned about Relisha's whereabouts. According to Shamika, her daughter had gone with Dr. Tatum to a medical conference in Atlanta, Georgia. She stated the two left on March 8th and that she had spoken to Relisha on the phone on March 17th.
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She admitted that she had known Khalil for several years and that she trusted him with her daughter and that she was safe. Shamika said that she did not want to file a police report. Now Antonio, Relisha's stepfather, had just arrived at the shelter and was standing outside smoking a cigarette when the director approached him and told him he was needed in the conference room.
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when the director approached him and told him he was needed in the conference room. At first, Antonio was annoyed, but he could sense urgency in the director's voice, especially after she told him that his girlfriend was not cooperating with the police. When Antonio walked in, he immediately asked Shemika what was going on.
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Authorities asked if he knew where Relisha was, and he told them she had been staying with her Aunt Ashley. Anthony had no idea that his stepdaughter had been missing for 18 days. Shameka never mentioned anything to him about Relisha being with Dr. Tatum. Antonio soon began to panic, and he begged the officers to check Ashley's house.
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It was known that if the children weren't at school or at the shelter with them, that they were at their aunt's house, a place they called Baby Boot Camp.
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The DC police immediately issued a missing person report for Relisha Rudd. News reports started coming out and investigators launched an exhaustive search to find the young girl. However, due to conflicting stories about who had last seen Relisha, the timeline of her disappearance was confusing. An Amber Alert was issued on March 20th.
Murder In America
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Both the FBI and the DC Police Department issued a reward for information regarding Relisha and Khalil's whereabouts.
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but shockingly shamika ended up changing her story about relisha being with galil in one of her first television interviews shamika stated that she didn't feel responsible for relisha's disappearance because she had been in the care of her mother and sister how are you feeling right now staying strong having a lot of faith that's all i can feel i'm hurt
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When she was asked about why she told Payne Elementary School that Relisha had been under the care of the so-called Dr. Tatum, she denied it. According to her, Relisha was only ever in the care of her grandmother, Melissa Young, which was clearly a lie.
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neighbor maurice jackson says tatum implied the girl was his niece and said he and his wife had just returned from some type of resort with the child authorities and volunteers continued to search land and water for eight-year-old relisha rudd her former teacher at the farrabee hope elementary school shannon smith was one of the volunteers she would tell john quillen hill on the through the cracks podcast we were over by kennelworth avenue in the park and we walked through the park
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Some of the park police would be out there with us and we would split up and everybody would just be out there walking until we just couldn't walk no more trying to find her." Relisha's stepfather, Antonio, wanted to join the search, but people speculated he was involved and he started to receive threats.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to John Quillen Hill, just weeks before Relisha had gone missing, Antonio had posted a photo on his Facebook account, showcasing a large wad of money. After seeing that, people wondered if he had received the money by selling his own stepdaughter. But Antonio denied this. He would later say that the money was from his tax return, but internet trolls didn't buy it.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Soon the comment section was flooded with, Is it possible she was trafficked? It's pretty clear in my mind that her parents sold her to this Tatum guy. They should be prosecuted. And I suspect they may have given her away.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Not only was Antonio being harassed on the internet with people messaging him and calling him a rapist and pedophile, but to make matters worse, DC's Child and Family Services Agency had removed Relisha's three younger brothers from Shamika and Antonio, which is understandable.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
The search for Relisha was still underway. But in the meantime, detectives went to work learning all they could about Khalil Tatum. During their search, they learned that Khalil had filed for divorce on February 7, 2014, just weeks before Relisha went missing.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Andrea's family members told police that Andrea had contemplated leaving Khalil on several occasions, and there had been domestic issues in the relationship. Court documents stated that the separation was mutual and voluntary. When investigators went to search Khalil's apartment at the 2500 block of North Street Southeast, the divorce paperwork was found on the kitchen table.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Investigators also located multiple cell phones, two passports, $87 in cash, a photo of Relisha, a computer tablet, and a large bag of children's clothing and shoes.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
One of Andrea's closest friends, Gerald Wills, believed that Andrea must have found out something sinister about her husband. Gerald described Andrea as the love of his life and said that he had known her for 30 years and even lived with her when Khalil was incarcerated.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
For Gerald, he believed that the only reason Andrea stayed with Khalil was because of what she had learned through Narcotics Anonymous. Always make amends. He told the Washington Post, He couldn't have loved her, because look at what he did. I think she found out something. That's why he did it. He thought she was going to tell. So did Andrea learn that Khalil had hurt 8-year-old Relisha?
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Did she threaten to go to the police? They didn't know. But the one thing they did know was that they needed to find Khalil before he could hurt anybody else.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Between March 25th and March 28th, massive searches were conducted at the 700-acre Kenilworth Park and Aquatic Gardens. where it was reported that Khalil Tatum had been seen after Andrea's murder. On March 27th, Police Chief Kathy Lanier issued a press conference where she admitted that the search for Relisha was now a recovery mission. They feared Relisha was dead.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
As the investigation continued into Relisha and Khalil's whereabouts, video surveillance from a Home Depot near the Holiday Inn Express showed Khalil purchasing 42-gallon trash bags, a shovel, and lime on March 2nd. Shortly after his purchase, investigators discovered through cell phone data that he had spent a significant amount of time at the aquatic gardens.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to sources, Khalil knew the area well as he had grown up at the Kenilworth Parkside Public Housing.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Shamika would spend the next four months with another foster family, but was once again removed after she, quote, threatened to kill everyone in the house. Shamika's third foster home was with Mabel and Artie Bethea. a couple who lived in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and they said that they were often given the worst of the worst when it came to foster children.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
always have strong hopes you can't never let your hopes down and god don't play with babies and food if she is alive where do you think she could be i don't know according to antonio wheeler after relisha disappeared the two decided to part ways antonio has continued to deny that he ever knew relisha stayed with khalil tatum but many people wondered why did he not question her whereabouts for the 18 days she was missing
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
According to NBC Washington, Antonio stated that he believed the family should have been investigated, but for him, he did not consider himself family because he was only her stepfather. He said, Why didn't they? I'm her stepdad. I'm not her family. I've got kids with her mom, but I'm not her family. Why didn't they charge the family?
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
For the eight months, Shamika lived with the Bethea family, and during that time, she attempted to run away on numerous occasions. She reportedly threatened to kill both Mabel and Artie and fought with the other children in the home. Finally, after threatening to hurt herself, Mabel decided it would be best to take Shamika to a mental health facility called Grafton. Shamika would later say, quote,
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
For the next six days, investigators and volunteers continued to comb through the 700-acre park looking for any sign of Relisha. One of the volunteers, a man named Derek Butler, told the local news that they were searching for anything that could belong to a child. A toy, a shoe, an item of clothing. However, despite the exhaustive search efforts, nothing was ever found.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
I felt alone. I felt like I ain't have nobody. I felt like I was in a hole, end quote. She also complained that she had been restrained to the bed and given injections to help her calm down. Now, after spending some time at this mental health facility, she eventually returned back to the Bethea home, where her brother, Antonio, had been fully adopted.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Despite the Child and Family Services being involved with Relisha's family, reports indicated that there were no clear signs she was in immediate danger. As for school officials, they had argued that they had been deceived by Shamika Young, who continued to falsely claim Relisha had been with Dr. Tatum and was receiving treatment for a neurological condition.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Although Relisha had missed more than 30 days of school, they stated that most of those were excused and they intervened when she had 10 unexcused absences due to a law that required intervention at that amount of unexcused absences.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
embarked four years ago on closing dc general we all believed it was too big to run down too isolated to serve families who need emergency shelter we have worked over the course of the last four years to create short-term family housing in all eight wards of the city After the disappearance of Relisha, D.C. General became a symbol of neglect, crime, and ultimately, a huge failure.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
However, after a few months, Shamika's behavioral problems returned, and her foster parents decided to take her back to Grafton. This time around, Shamika was diagnosed with a mild mental disability and was described by her caseworkers as...
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
The community would never forget the horrific living conditions that families were forced to live in, and how vulnerable children were exploited, groomed, and abused. Project Playtime co-founder Jamila Larson would tell the Washington Post, The children at DC General were neglected many years before Relisha Rudd went missing.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
She was so symbolic of all the gaps in the safety net and all the ways we collectively have failed vulnerable children in our community.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
a very sad angry youth she does not make eye contact or speak without considerable encouragement to do so she cries easily and has reacted angrily to sudden transitions
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Melissa and Antonio both believed that Shamika was responsible for Relish's disappearance. During her time on the Steve Wilkos television show, Shamika was heavily criticized. Antonio and Melissa both agreed to take polygraph tests. However, Shamika refused, which only raised more suspicions about her involvement.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Your turn. Your turn.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Shamika's attitude during the investigation rubbed people the wrong way. She didn't seem as frantic as you would expect a mother to be when they found out their child had been missing for weeks. Over the years, Shamika has said that she never allowed Khalil Tatum to take Relisha, when it's been proven that this is false.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
She also continued to deny she ever told Payne Elementary School that Relisha was under the care of a so-called Dr. Tatum. Instead, she shifted blame. She blamed her mother, Melissa Young. Shamika said that it was actually her who called the elementary school. Shamika also blamed her sister, Ashley Young, and said that she had been in her care when she went missing.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
After Relisha's disappearance, the family feud played out in the media. exposing their dark past with child and family services, and how both Shamika and Antonio had grown up in the foster care system. In 2021, Shamika returned to the Steve Wilkos show to give an update on the case.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Once again, she defended her decision to not take a lie detector test, and this time blamed her ex-boyfriend, Antonio, for Relish's disappearance.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Because at the end of the day, I'm going to always be there for Relisha. I was more of a parent to her than you was.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
It has now been over 10 years since Relisha Rudd disappeared, and there have still been no sightings of her, dead or alive. But the case remains open, and although the D.C. Police Department still receives tips, none have ever led to any solid evidence or answers.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
In order to keep her name alive, Washington DC announced that July 11th would be Relisha Rudd Remembrance Day. The day was chosen to represent the 18 days she was missing. 7 plus 11 equals 18. Each year, members of the community hold an event to honor and remember Relisha's legacy.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Founder of DC's Missing Voice, Henderson Long, hopes that keeping Relisha's name in the media will shed a light on her disappearance and keep the searches going. She told WUSA9, I think Relisha may be a year older than my daughter. And so it really puts things in perspective. If this was my daughter or anybody else's daughter or me or you or anybody missing this long, it still hurts.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
And we want to prevent this from happening again, as you said before with other children. And it's all about education. It's all about mobilizing and getting the community to take action.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Brenda Brown, a retired federal employee, launched a Facebook group called We Are Relisha. She told the Washington Post that she never knew Relisha, but that her disappearance had an impact on women, especially mothers. She said, Relisha is a part of us. She is a part of our soul. If we're not going to be Relisha, then who will be Relisha? Who's going to speak for Relisha?
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Who's going to stand for Relisha?
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Although Relisha's mother, Shamika Young, tends to stay out of the spotlight, it was reported that her and her mother, Melissa Young, have made amends. In an interview with Inside Edition in 2020, Shamika admitted that every year without Relisha, it gets more difficult. She said, It's not my fault. I am tired of laying my head down to get some rest, and I can't even reach out and grab my daughter.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Shamika's mother, Melissa, said that it was still hard for her to go to sleep at night not knowing where Relisha was, if she was alive or if she was dead. However, whenever she dreamed of Relisha, she always dreamed of Kenilworth Park. Shamika Young has never been charged in connection with Relisha's disappearance.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
In 2023, Antonio Wheeler posted a video on TikTok blaming the advocates who gave Relisha a voice.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Antonio remains active on TikTok, posting various videos about Shamika's involvement in Relisha's disappearance, how she continues to contact their two children, and how after a decade, he has finally received custody of his sons. In one video, he even said that both Shamika and her mother Melissa had a sexual relationship with Khalil Tatum.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Today, in Berlish's honor, we will be making a donation to the Black and Missing Foundation, a non-profit organization that raises awareness surrounding missing black and brown individuals who are often overlooked by the mainstream media and law enforcement. Hey everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
This was the story that I've been talking about for a while during these outros. I have wanted to tell this story and share this story with our audience for a long time because this entire thing is just so egregious and the lack of justice here, the lack of answers is not only infuriating, but it's just, it's really, really sad, especially knowing how much life Relesha had within her
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
and what she could have grown up and gone on to do with her life it's so tragic all the way around and just there has to be a break in the case someday there has to be an answer that comes hopefully one day if we just keep talking about it that day will come But if you love Murder in America and you don't like the advertisements throughout the show, please consider joining us on Patreon.
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
If you join us on Patreon, you can get early and ad-free access to all of our episodes. You can also get access to bonus episodes, so if you love the show and you've already finished every episode we've ever put out,
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EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Consider joining us on Patreon because you can immediately get access to a huge library of full-length bonus episodes featuring Courtney and I, the sound editing, everything that we do on all of our shows. It's like essentially doubling the Spotify or Apple Podcasts library immediately when you sign up and you help support the show and keep this whole thing going.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. Leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Be sure to check out the conspiracy files on all streaming platforms. And yeah, we'll be back next week with another story. We'll never run out of them, sadly, here in America.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
¶¶
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Following this, Irving Rudd was convicted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to just 15 years in prison. Unsurprisingly, in 2002, Irving was released, but according to his criminal record, he has never had another offense. Now, sometime after he was released, Irving would cross paths with Shamika Rudd.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
And like we mentioned, the two would go on to have two children together, Relisha in 2005 and Irving Jr. in 2006. But according to Shamika, Irving wanted no part of raising his children. Shamika told the Washington Post, he walked out of Relisha's life at the age of one and he walked out of Irving's life at the age of six months.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
Now, family members admitted that Irving tried to be a good father to his children, but the tension between him and Shamika caused some problems. Shamika's sister, Ashley Young, stated that Irving often picked up Relisha and Irving Jr. from her house. Both children were always ecstatic to see their father, but for whatever reason, Shamika did not want to be around when Irving showed up.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
In fact, in February 2012 and September 2012, Irving had even filed for legal custody of his children. it seemed as if this time around he wanted to be a good father. Each time he filed for custody, he paid the $80 fee, and he did this because he believed Shamika was not taking good care of the kids.
Murder In America
EP. 193: WASHINGTON D.C. - She Gave Her Child To A Pedophile: The Disappearance of Relisha Rudd
In both filings, he stated that, quote, joint custody was not in the best interest of the children, end quote. However, both times it was thrown out due to both Shamika and Irving not showing up to court.
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
Almost four months after our Houstonian went missing at Fort Hood, Vanessa Guillen is finally home. This involved an exhaustive search with constant prayers for a miracle before ending in heartbreak. Today we witnessed Vanessa's remains be brought here to Holy Name Catholic Church for a funeral mass.
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
Vanessa's father and siblings carried the green casket adorned with the Virgin Mary and American and Mexican flags from a hearse to the steps of this Catholic church. Father Anil Thomas blessed the remains with holy water before they led the casket inside.
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
As dignitaries like Mayor Sylvester Turner talked about Vanessa Guillen's impact. Her living and her death will not be in vain.
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
We learned a heartbreaking detail
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
He revealed the Guillen family's mistrust of the Army runs so deep they asked the Houston Police Department to confirm the remains belonged to Vanessa. Acevedo told Gloria Guillen the news himself.
Murder In America
EP. 189: TEXAS - The Murder of Vanessa Guillén: A Complete Failure At Ft. Hood
Today, as the red, white and blue wave to welcome the soldier home, the prayer is she's finally at peace.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
As you just heard, Jessica was screaming, Papa. She was coming to the realization that her family was dead. From here, Sergeant Paul Davis went through the home where he saw a horrific scene. The bodies of Jessica's family members were strewn all throughout the home. There was blood and bullet casings covering the ground.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Sergeant Paul Davis discovered the deceased body of Rodolfo outside in the backyard. Apparently, Rodolfo had entered the residence during the chaos but was met by Joseph and his gun. He was shot once, stumbled backwards into the yard, and collapsed on the ground. The deceased body of Jesus Serrano was located in the hallway near the kitchen. Both Maria and Kenneth would be found in the basement.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Now, at this point, Sergeant Paul Davis is the only officer on scene, and his first priority is clearing the home to make sure the gunman isn't still around. And as he's outside, Jessica makes her way down into the basement, and that's where she sees the bodies of her twin sister, Maria, and her husband, Kenneth.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Horrifically, Sergeant Paul Davis's body cam captures the moment she makes that discovery.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Our story starts in the town of Aurora, Colorado. Located outside of Denver, Colorado, nestled in the Rocky Mountains, Aurora is breathtaking. Courtney and I actually just visited there last month on our anniversary trip, and we can see why people choose to live there.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
When you drive through Aurora, there are parts that have a very small town feel, even though there's a population of over 380,000 people. It's a very family-friendly community with a lot of outdoor activities. And being the third largest city in Colorado, Aurora is known for its diversity. Its population has a mix of Native Americans, Asians, African Americans, Hispanics.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
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EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on Instagram, Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much, helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But let's get back to the story. Soon enough, Geneva Street was lit up with blue and red flashing lights. Yellow crime scene tape surrounded the Serrano home. Officers in town were actively on the hunt for Joseph Castorena, while other investigators worked the crime scene. EMTs had arrived at the house, but as they checked the four victims for any signs of life, they found none.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
What had started out as a fun night for the family tragically ended with four people losing their lives outside of the home sergeant davis escorted jessica to a quiet portion of geneva street where he did his best to console her
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
So there's a lot of culture here. According to Visit Aurora, there are over 90 languages spoken in the Aurora school system. Dubbed the City of Sunshine, the area is lucky to have over 300 days of sunshine each year, making it one of Colorado's most sought-out locations for outdoor enthusiasts and tourists.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
From here, Jessica and the two children were taken to a local hospital. Fortunately, all three showed no signs of physical injury. However, there were emotional scars. The three were also placed under protective custody since Joseph Castoreno was still on the run. But that night, Jessica had to let her family members know that he had finally done what they'd all been afraid of all along.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Jessica's uncle, Ubaldo Codina, spoke with Fox 31 Denver and admitted they were all afraid of Joseph. He had threatened to kill Jessica and her family on numerous occasions, and he finally made good on that threat. They also knew that he was not one to follow protective orders.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
In fact, Jessica, Jesus, and Maria had even called the police on Joseph many times for violating protection orders, and still, nothing happened.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Back at the crime scene, investigators searched for clues inside of the home. They found a stolen 9mm Kim handgun and nine spent shell casings. The gun was eventually traced back to a man in Iowa who had originally purchased the gun in 2016. It is unknown how Joseph came to be in possession of the stolen firearm, but fingerprints on the gun would later be found to match those belonging to Joseph.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But as you may know, the town has had its fair share of tragedies, including the Aurora Theater shooting that took place on July 20, 2012. 24-year-old James Egan Holmes opened fire inside a Century 16 movie theater and brutally murdered 13 people, including an unborn infant. while wounding 70 more.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
However, there was still no sign of him. Ring camera footage caught him escaping through the back of the house barefoot. It was extremely cold that morning, so investigators believed that he had most likely gone back to his parents' house, located only a few blocks from the Serrano residence. Even further, investigators were able to determine that Joseph's cell phone had pinged nearby.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
He couldn't have gone far. So from here, police descended upon his neighborhood with K9s. They quickly taped off the entire street and searched on foot, in between houses, backyards, and they also went door to door to find out if the neighbors had seen anything. While searching, they located his red Hummer H2 parked in the street, abandoned. But it was a little after 3 a.m.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
when police came knocking on his family's door with the news that their son had just massacred an entire family. According to them, they had no idea where he was. Here's his sister talking with the police.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Once the temperatures started rising this spring, Courtney and I both realized that we were back in the same worn-out rotation. We were wearing the same tanks, the same shorts, the same pants, the same everything. So, we both decided to switch things up, and we gave our daily uniforms an upgrade with quints.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make us feel more put together without even trying. Honestly, we've talked about this company before, but Quince makes incredibly comfortable, very well-fitted clothing that Courtney and I have come to love.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
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Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
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Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Go to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash America to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash America. And now let's get back to our story. With the help of a bilingual officer, they were also able to talk to Joseph's mother. And that's when they learned about the tumultuous relationship between the couple.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But they still needed to search the Castorena home. Officers had a feeling that Joseph might be hiding inside. So at 4.30 a.m., a team of officers led by Sergeant Paul Davis entered the Castorena residence. Once inside the house, the team of police officers went room to room searching for Joseph. Their canines also searched for him, but there was no indication that he was at home.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And although his cell phone still pinged in the area and he was clearly on foot, authorities couldn't find him. During the early investigation, one police officer noted that he heard a loud truck roaring out of the neighborhood, followed by a sequence of gunshots. Investigators wondered if the truck had been used as a distraction to allow more time for Joseph to escape.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
They also wondered if Joseph had an accomplice.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Now, I know we usually give a lot of background information on the people in our stories, but sadly, there isn't a lot out there on the people in this case. What we do know is that Joseph Castorena and Jessica Serrano had a long, twisted history together, one filled with love, pain, and betrayal, and they were young.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
On the afternoon of October 30th, Jessica's mother was interviewed by Fox 31 Denver, and she provided more insight into the relationship between her daughter and Joseph.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
At 7.50 a.m. on the morning of October 30, Joseph's Hummer was towed and searched at the Aurora Police Department evidence bay. DNA was swabbed and lifted from the interior, and they also located his driver's license, his social security card, two credit cards, one debit card, and a Costco card inside his wallet. After finding these items, the thought of him fleeing seemed even less likely.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Leaving the country without any money or an ID wouldn't be easy.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
In 2022, Joseph was just 22 years old, so he and Jessica were just kids when they started dating. And of course, like any new relationship, especially as a teenager, the two quickly fell in love. And in the beginning, things seemed to be going well for the couple. They were happy. Eventually, he and Jessica found out that they were pregnant with a little girl.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
After the case was publicized throughout Aurora and nearby Denver, several tips came into the police department, including one from Joseph's cousin, Joel. Joel told investigators that during the early morning hours of October 30th, he was suddenly woken up by a knock on his bedroom window. Joel said that he opened his eyes and saw his cousin standing there, with a strange look on his face.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
It was clear that something was terribly wrong. So Joel went to the front door to see what he wanted. When he opened the door, Joseph kept repeating over and over again. I fucked up. Now, it's unclear whether or not Joseph told him about what he actually did that night, but Joel said that it looked like he was high on drugs.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Joseph even begged his cousin to let him stay there for a while, but Joel refused. Instead, he gave Joseph a pair of green tennis shoes and sent him on his way.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And soon after that, they had another daughter. From the outside looking in, they appeared to be a beautiful, loving family. But looks can be deceiving. Because beneath the surface, their relationship was volatile. Joseph had a bad temper. He would physically and emotionally abuse Jessica whenever he got upset. And sadly, he was even beating her while she was pregnant.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
now joel's house was located several miles from the crime scene so investigators wondered how he had traveled that far in the cold weather without any shoes at this point they believed that he had had an accomplice and they focused their investigation on joseph's two brothers but joseph's older brother provided an alibi for his whereabouts that morning and it checked out
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
However, his younger brother, Juan Angel Castorena, was a different story. During the early investigation, investigators were very suspicious of him because Juan refused to speak with them. But on the afternoon of November 1st, he was taken to the police station for an official interview.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And shockingly, Juan admitted that he had not only helped Joseph escape, but also that he had given him a ride to the Serrano residence before the murders. Now, like we mentioned, Joseph's Hummer had been abandoned at the scene, so I'm not sure exactly how that played out. But according to Juan, after the murders, he drove Joseph to Denver, where he passed him off to their cousin, Carlos Flores.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Both Juan and Carlos also gave Joseph some cash so he could flee. But after this confession, Juan was arrested and ultimately charged with accessory after the fact in four murders.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Now, by this point, it had been over a month since the massacre, and Joseph Castoreno was still on the loose. And by now, investigators believed that he had escaped to Mexico, where he had family. So the FBI, Mexican Immigration Services, and the Federal Police Force followed a trail that led them to Zacatecas State in Mexico.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
According to reports, once Joseph entered Mexico, he reached out to his family members for help, but they weren't as welcoming as he had hoped. In fact, the year prior, in 2021, after his grandfather's funeral, Joseph had caused some problems with his family members in Mexico. So clearly, they had no desire to harbor a fugitive. These family members even alerted the local police.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
By the time they arrived, Joseph was already gone. After leaving Zacatecas state, he traveled to a remote area of Mexico called Aguas Calientes. But by then, Mexican authorities were on the lookout for him. And soon enough, on December 10th, 2022, they spotted a short young man with a lion tattoo on the side of his neck. It was Joseph Castorena.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
For women in abusive relationships, pregnancy can be a very dangerous experience. In fact, the leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide, which is horrifying. One would think that because they're growing a baby, the abuse would stop, but that's not always the case.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And finally, after a month and a half of being on the run, Joseph was apprehended by the Mexican police.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events,
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories. Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
In some situations, physical abuse can actually get worse for a number of reasons, like how the mother's attention has shifted to their baby instead of their husband. And sadly for Jessica, she experienced this firsthand.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story. Colorado investigators were informed of his arrest and they immediately flew down to Aguas Calientes to interview him.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Ultimately, he was extradited back to the United States and taken to Phoenix, Arizona. Here, he was held by the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department until he would be extradited once again to Colorado. But interestingly, during an interview in Phoenix, Joseph complained that Mexican authorities had treated him horribly.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
He feared he would receive the same treatment in the United States, but investigators assured him he would be treated with respect.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
joseph was held without bond at the arapahoe county jail in aurora until a june 2023 supreme court ruling stated that anyone convicted of first-degree murder must be eligible for bond before trial so the prosecution requested the bond be set at 100 million dollars a number that clearly no one could afford
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
So, on July 7th, 2023, Judge David Karpel didn't set it at $100 million, but he set it at $75 million, and it all had to be in cash. Still, a number that only billionaires could afford. Now, Joseph's defense attorney argued that the amount was unconstitutional, and that no one, not even the extremely wealthy, would be able to afford it. They suggested that the bond be set at a mere $100,000.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
which is insane because his brother Juan's bond was $400,000 and Joseph had literally fled the country. So, I think his bond was pretty appropriate. Ultimately, Judge Karpel believed that Joseph was the classic definition of a flight risk and posed a clear and unjustifiable risk to society. He also feared for the safety of the surviving family members.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
So, clearly, Joseph had to wait in jail until his trial.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
In May of 2024, Joseph Castorena finally went on trial for the quadruple homicide of Jesus, Maria, Rodolfo, and Kenneth and the attempted murder of Jessica.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
The prosecution presented overwhelming evidence against him, including fingerprint matches that linked him to the murder weapon, a ballistic analysis that reported that the gun was used in the murders, ring camera footage of him lurking outside the residence before the killings, and harrowing testimony from multiple witnesses, including Jessica Serrano. Senior Chief Deputy D.A.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Darcy Cofill stated, this coward executed an entire family and an innocent tenant. This defendant couldn't accept the fact that his ex-girlfriend wanted to move on with her life. Instead, he decided to viciously murder everyone she loved. In turn, the defense argued that Joseph's actions were caused by extreme emotional distress and attempted to poke holes in the prosecution's timeline.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But the jury wasn't convinced. On May 16th, after only a few hours of deliberation, the jury finally reached a unanimous verdict. Guilty on all counts. Due to being found guilty on all four counts of first-degree murder in the state of Colorado, Joseph now faced mandatory life in prison. During the trial, it was reported that Joseph showed no remorse for his actions.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
and continued to blame Jessica until the very end for what he had done that fateful morning.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
On September 3rd, 2024, Judge David Carpal sentenced Joseph to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He also received an additional 24 years for the attempted murder of Jessica Serrano to run concurrently with the four counts of first-degree murder.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
During sentencing, Judge Carpal told Joseph, "...your actions were those of an insignificant little man with a big gun who had to control the people in his life that he supposedly loved." and did so with such abject violence. This insignificance of yours will dissipate in time into ether, where you will become forgotten.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
I've had many people stand before me as defendants and say, I'm not a bad person, I just did the wrong thing, and I've sometimes agreed with them. But Mr. Castorena, you are the biggest exception to the rule. Joseph refused to speak during sentencing.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Judge Carpal also commended Jessica for her bravery, saying she exhibited extraordinary courage in the most difficult circumstances given the evidence of this case.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Hey everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Murder in America. Courtney and I are so thankful to have the amount of listeners that we have and to have everybody out there joining us on this journey. And yeah, we just can't thank you all enough for tuning in every week to explore these stories with us.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
If you don't like the ads in the middle of the show, consider joining us on Patreon. If you become a patron, you can get access to early ad-free episodes of the show. And for the higher tiers, you can actually get access to an entire library of bonus Murder in America episodes that will never go live on the main feed. And there's over a hundred of them on our Patreon.
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EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
So if you love the show and you want to support the work that we do here, joining us on Patreon is a great way to do so. Also, don't forget to leave us a five-star review, whether it's on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you're listening to this show. And follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Anyways, y'all, Courtney and I hope you have the best weekend and a great week whenever you're listening to this episode. Thanks again for tuning in and I'll catch y'all in the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
On the afternoon of October 23, 2022, Jessica was leaving her work when she suddenly saw Joseph in the parking lot, and the look on his face was terrifying. He quickly approached her, demanding they talk over lunch, but Jessica refused. She tried to walk away to get into her car, but before she knew it, he grabbed her by the arm and forced her into his Hummer. And that's when she saw the gun.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Once in his car, Joseph pulled out his small black handgun and pressed it up against her. He then told her that he was going to kill her if she didn't do what he said. But at that moment, Jessica knew that she needed to get out of there. She knew what he was capable of, so she attempted to flee the vehicle.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
She would later say that when she opened the car door, he grabbed her by the shirt, trying to keep her inside. But she fought back. Jessica ended up falling backwards out of his car, and from there, she took off running.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
Together, Jessica, her father Jesus, and her twin sister Maria drove to the Arapaho County Police Department and filled out a criminal complaint and protective order. And sadly, this wasn't the first time they had done this. Her family had filed separate protective orders against Joseph in the past, specifically for his violent behavior and threats.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But on this one, Jessica wrote on the report, I was planning on going home and he didn't let me. While being pregnant with my first child, he would hit me. Really controlling, harassing all the time. I had to listen to him or he'll hit. Wouldn't let me see my family. Her father Jesus was also a part of this report.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And in regards to this recent incident, he wrote, The next day she showed up around 3 p.m. She was covered in glass and had cuts all over her arms. Joseph had broken her driver's side window while she was on the driver's side. He was upset because he didn't want her to leave. Joseph also had a gun on him. He used it to scare her.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But Jessica wasn't the only person who was afraid of Joseph. Her father Jesus filed his own order of protection against him. As it turns out, Joseph had threatened him as well, especially when it came to Jessica and Joseph's daughters. In Jesus' report, he wrote, Now, following this, both Jessica and Jesus were granted temporary orders of protection.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
and a permanent order of protection was scheduled for a hearing on November 4th, 2022. Her twin sister, Maria, also requested a protective order against him, but there were no records that indicated it had been granted. According to KDVR, the judge denied it, citing no imminent danger. But as we've seen time and time again, these protective orders are simply a piece of paper.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And when it comes to monsters like Joseph Castorena, it isn't going to stop them. In the past, these orders meant nothing to him. He had a long criminal record for violating court orders and failure to appear in court, so clearly he didn't care about this protective order.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And despite these charges against him, Joseph was able to evade punishment and continued to harass and threaten his ex-girlfriend and her family. It was also reported that even when Joseph would get arrested for these crimes, his family was always there to support him and immediately bail him out of jail.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
But for the meantime, Jessica and her family were relieved that the courts were on their side. Their protective orders also made it to where Joseph wasn't allowed to possess a firearm, which was also a relief considering he would use it to threaten her. But as you can imagine, things were extremely complicated, especially because they had two children together.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And Jessica's family said that Joseph always used the kids as a way to control and manipulate Jessica. Now, on October 29th, 2022, after all the protective orders had been issued, CPS actually removed both of their daughters from their custody, citing concerns about the volatile environment and the unstable dynamic between their parents.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And Joseph was still awaiting trial for that felony child abuse case from two years back. So from here, the girls actually went to live with family members in Texas. Now, considering how abusive their father was, this was definitely for the best. But it also seemed to be the breaking point for Joseph. First, he lost Jessica. Then he was issued these protective orders.
Murder In America
EP. 197: COLORADO - The Mass Shooter Who Fled To Mexico
And now he's lost his daughters. He had lost control over everything in his life. And he certainly wasn't happy about it.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
In December of 1992, after three years of dating, Rusty proposed to Andrea and she happily said yes. To him, Andrea was the exact type of woman he wanted in a wife. Someone who followed the same religion. Someone who was subservient to him. To Rusty, that was very important, as he believed that wives' roles are to be agreeable. And Andrea was just that.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
She wasn't really the type of person that was outspoken. If she didn't agree with something, Andrea would keep it to herself to keep the peace. She wasn't one to argue her point, or to talk back. She followed her husband's lead with whatever he wanted, and that dynamic seemed to work out for them.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On April 17th, 1993, the two would get married in a small chapel in Clear Lake Park, and a non-denominational pastor officiated the ceremony. And with that, Andrea Kennedy was now Andrea Yates, a name that is now known all across the world. But after exchanging vows, the newlyweds celebrated with over 100 guests at their reception.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
It was a new and exciting chapter in their lives, and all of their friends and family were so happy for their union. The following week, Rusty and Andrea would honeymoon in Cancun, Mexico, and when they came back to Texas, they had their new home waiting for them. Rusty had purchased the small brick house in Friendswood, Texas for $90,000.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And although it was the smallest house in the upper middle class neighborhood, it was perfect for the two of them, especially because just two months after their wedding, Andrea found out she was pregnant with their first child.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And I'm Colin Brown.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Things were about to get a whole lot more difficult for the Yates family. Because in 1996, Rusty found out that NASA was transferring him to Honeywell Aerospace in Clearwater, Florida. Now, he would only work there for less than a year, so instead of buying a house, Rusty decided that he and his family were just going to live out of a small travel trailer.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
For years, he always liked the idea of living a minimalist life, with few worldly possessions. The Warneckys had actually been preaching that owning a big home and having a lot of stuff wasn't godly, so this was their opportunity to live a life that honored God.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Now, it's unclear what Andrea thought about this move, but considering she was hardly one to complain, she likely trusted that her husband had their best interests at heart. She did, however, message Rachel Warnecky about the move, and she told her that they were moving to Florida. Sadly, she also said that she had been feeling really lonely lately.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
A few weeks later, Rachel responded and told Andrea to explore that loneliness and what that's telling her about her salvation. She also instructed her to read the Bible verse Titus 2, which states, "...teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine."
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
but to teach what is good then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children to be self-controlled and pure to be busy at home to be kind and to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of god rachel made sure to emphasize that women should be the ones taking care of the home and stated that it went against what modern women thought she even added jesus knows how wicked you are how weak and vulnerable but god is able to sympathize with your weakness
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Even the loneliness works to draw you to seek and find security in him.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow... definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook, and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
But let's get back to the story. By June of 1997, just eight months after arriving in Florida, Rusty's contract at Honeywell Aerospace had officially ended. So on June 17th, they packed up all their things and drove back to the Lazy Days RV park in Texas. The RV park's manager, Belinda Green, was happy to see them again.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
She enjoyed watching the little boys play outside and laugh, and she was surprised to see that Andrea was pregnant again. By that point, she was actually just a few months away from giving birth. And this time, Belinda gave them the best spot in the park, so the children had plenty of room to run around and play. The Yates family was happy to be back in Texas.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Rusty immediately started back with his work at NASA. Andrea spent her days with her children, like she always did. When she had free time, she liked to take the boys to the community pool, walk them around the park to pick flowers, and go to the small pond on the property that contained an assortment of bugs that Noah loved to play with, especially the butterflies.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
By all accounts, Andrea appeared to be a great mother. She was patient with her boys. She was also kind but firm when it was appropriate. And because of that, Noah and John were good kids. Belinda Green would later say that the oldest, Noah, would often bring her drawings of flowers and butterflies, two of his favorite things.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
But under the surface, Andrea was struggling. Her entire life had been confined to a 38-foot travel trailer. She had no social life outside of her children, and she barely even had time to care for herself. Instead, she spent her days taking care of her three boys. In February of 1998, their family would celebrate Noah's fourth birthday.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
but there were no friends or family members there for the occasion, just Andrea, Rusty, Noah, John, and Paul, all singing happy birthday to him in their trailer. The Yates family kept their circle small, but the one family they did interact with was the Warneckys. In late May of 1998, they would actually take a family trip to Miami, Florida, where the Warnecky family was living at the time.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Michael and Rachel had been there with their six children, evangelizing at college campuses. And their kids were even involved in their work, handing out pamphlets to college students as they walked by. One of their daughters, a girl named Ruth, mentioned to one of the students that she and her siblings didn't have any friends and that they were homeschooled.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
In addition, Rachel Warnecki had given a statement to the Indiana Daily Student where she stated, While the Yates family was in Miami,
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Andrea Pia Kennedy was born on July 2, 1964, in Houston, Texas. Her parents, Andrew and Karen Kennedy, had five children altogether. There were the three boys, Brian, Patrick, and Andrew, their daughter, Michelle, and then Andrea, who was the youngest.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On February 15th, 1999, Andrea would give birth to her fourth baby, another son they named Luke David Yates. By this point, Rusty had sold their first travel trailer, and their family of six was now living in their renovated Greyhound bus. Which was better because now they had a bit more room, but it was still incredibly crowded.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
With four children, all under five years old, their new bus was filled with toys, clothes, dishes, you name it. There was this one portion of the bus that they originally used to store luggage, But with how crowded things were, they now had to use it for a makeshift bed for Noah and John.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And it's around this time when the RV park manager, Belinda Green, noticed that Andrea hardly ever left the bus. Throughout the day, she stayed cramped up inside with her four young boys. And on the rare occasion she did step outside, everyone said she looked overwhelmed and exhausted.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Andrea's father was a former Air Force pilot who had flown bomber planes in World War II, and he would actually meet Andrea's mom in Germany, where she was from. At the time, Karen was working as a German translator during the war, and upon meeting, she and Andrew fell in love and got married.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Andrea's family was devastated over what happened, but there was a long history of mental illness in her family. Two of her siblings had been diagnosed with depression, her father suffered from depression, and one sibling had bipolar disorder. It was also reported that there was a history of alcohol abuse somewhere in the family.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Following the war, Andrew would bring her back to the United States, where they settled down in Houston, Texas and started a family. From there, Andrew worked as a teacher at Humble High School, and Karen stayed home with the kids. The Kennedys were a simple, Catholic, middle-class family. Growing up, the kids lived very normal lives.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
But once at the psych unit, Dr. James Flack diagnosed Andrea with major depressive disorder, single episode, severe, and suicidal ideation. For the next week, Andrea was closely monitored to make sure she was no longer a danger to herself. and during that time, she opened up to a nurse about her mental struggles.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
She told her that after having children, she had become very overwhelmed and depressed. but she also said that she was no longer suicidal. According to hospital reports, Andrea admitted to having recurrent obsessive thoughts and that most of them are over our children and how they'll turn out.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
When the hospital staff spoke to Rusty, he admitted that he believed they had a good marriage, but over the years, he felt that Andrea had lost her identity due to her energy being focused on the children. It was also noted that it was concerned with Andrea's obsessive thoughts about the concept of salvation.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
During this call, she reported that not only were the living arrangements not healthy for Andrea and her children, but that the father was letting his toddlers use power tools. About a week after this report was made, CPS Supervisor Dan Wilber replied and thanked Norma for sending the message.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
but he informed her that there was nothing they could do stating because the situation does not appear to involve the occurrence and or substantial risk of abuse or neglect we plan no further inquiries however dan did say that he forwarded the complaint to the houston police department but back at the psychiatric hospital andrea was treated with the antidepressant zoloft
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
and they also noted that she may be suffering from delusional guilt, and that she was still at risk of harming herself. But despite this, they decided to release Andrea due to insurance restrictions. Dr. Flack wrote in Andrea's notes, "...interviewed patient again this AM. I also spoke to the patient's husband at length. They are requesting that she be discharged to the family's care.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
They have agreed to watch her around the clock and are aware that she is at risk of harming herself again."
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Andrea was described as a shy little girl who kept to herself, much like her father. Their family lived directly across the street from the Glenbrook Golf Course, and she and her brother loved to collect stray golf balls and sell them for a profit.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On the weekends, the Kennedy children liked to ride their bikes through the neighborhood, swim at their local YMCA, or on special occasions, their family would go to the beach and boat around the golf.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Now, during this week, while Andrea was at the psychiatric hospital, Rusty finally came to the conclusion that they had to buy a house. Andrea's mother Karen had even approached him and said, no more bus. And she was right. Having six people crammed into that tiny space was not good for Andrea's mental health.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
That very week, on July 29th, 1999, Rusty bought the house located at 942 Beachcomber Lane in the community of Clear Lake in Houston, Texas, the very home where their biggest nightmare would one day turn into reality.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Following this evaluation, Dr. Thompson diagnosed Andrea with major depressive disorder, severe recurrent, and with psychotic features. They also suggested electric shock therapy treatment. Another doctor, Dr. Arturo Rios, agreed with the treatment plan for Andrea. but both Andrea and Rusty refused.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
They wanted to wait it out to see if the injections of Haldol were working, but during her last week at the hospital, Andrea was still not showing signs of improvement. She continued refusing her medication, which was a combination of Haldol and Cogentin, and two antidepressants, Effexor and Welbutrin.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
When asked why she wouldn't take her medicine, she would simply respond, I just don't feel like taking them. But in order for her to get released from the hospital, Andrea had to take her medication. So eventually, she started pretending to take her pills. In some instances, she would just hide it inside of her mouth until no one was looking.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And when the coast was clear, she would spit the pills out into the toilet. Now over the course of her three weeks stay, she had shown some signs of improvement. She opened up to the doctors about her mental health struggles. She sometimes took her medication and towards the end, her mood seemed to have slightly improved.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
So on August 9th, 1999, she was discharged to the partial hospitalization program, which meant that she would continue outpatient treatment during the day,
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
but at night she was able to go home and luckily for her home was no longer a 350 square foot bus but rather a spacious 1600 square foot three bedroom home in clear lake but upon getting discharged andrea had to follow orders which meant she had to be diligent about taking her medication which included well butrin 150 milligrams twice a day effects or 75 milligrams twice a day
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
a two milligram injection of Cogentin at bedtime, and a five milligram injection of Haldol at bedtime. If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories, and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories we're presenting you people with facts telling you the story walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with murder in america and then letting the listener decide what they think anyways you should definitely give it a listen it's called the conspiracy files the links are in the description of this show and you can find it on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and now let's get back to our story
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
andrea yates was going through postpartum psychosis a rare but serious medical emergency that endangers both the mother and the child's lives according to the cleveland clinic although the disease is rare only affecting roughly one in one thousand mothers it's extremely dangerous now postpartum psychosis is very different from postpartum depression or the baby blues
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
which is much more common with pretty mild emotional symptoms. But postpartum psychosis affects a mother's sense of reality. Common side effects are hallucinations, severe mood changes, delusions, disorganized thinking or behavior, insomnia, agitation, thoughts of self-harming or harming others, depression, mania, or a mix of both. And Andrea was experiencing most, if not all, of these symptoms.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
It also appeared that with each child her symptoms were getting worse. So the fact that she and Rusty were still wanting to have more children was incredibly concerning, especially since she wasn't committed to taking her medication. Andrea Yates was a ticking time bomb, and no one seemed to have realized, because on August 20th, she was discharged from her partial hospitalization program.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
and they were so happy that they were finally having a little girl. All was well in the world. Here are some home videos from around this time that show Andrea laughing while her boys sing their ABCs.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
That evening, she laughed as she filmed her son Luke throwing his face into her chocolate birthday cake. Their family was happy and nearly complete. On November 15, 2000, Andrea and Rusty welcomed their fifth child and first daughter, Mary Deborah Yates. By that point, Andrea had been off her medications for a year, and things seemed to be going well.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Home videos showed birthday parties where she laughed and held her youngest daughter. She filmed a play where Noah and John dressed up as medieval knights with homemade costumes. Here's a video where one of the boys was holding his new baby sister.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On February 15th, 2001, Andrea filmed Luke's second birthday celebration, a happy occasion where she made a homemade cake shaped like a train, his favorite. Nine days later, their oldest son Noah celebrated his seventh birthday, and on video you can hear Andrea asking him what he liked to do. Noah happily responded, Everything seemed normal, but under the surface,
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Andrea's mental health was about to take another dark turn. It's also around this time when she and Rusty began corresponding with the Warnecki family again. Michael, Rachel, and their six children were still preaching around college campuses, shouting at everyone that they were going to hell, and how worldly things like football were evil.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
They were even condemning Christians, the Pope, and Catholics. Here are some clips from the Warnecki's teachings.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Both Rusty and Andrea truly looked up to the Warnecki family. They took their preachings to heart. They held Bible studies at their house three nights a week. And something else that the Warneckis preached on was their opposition to modern medicine. Perhaps this is why Andrea was never really consistent with taking her own. Maybe she thought it wasn't what God wanted. We don't know.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
But we do know that at this point in Andrea's life, her religious delusions were at an all-time high. And it's around this time when Andrea even began sending her family members copies of the Waranecki's newsletters, warning them that their Catholic faith would secure them a spot in hell.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
They were really leaning into the fire and brimstone teachings, and this, coupled with Andrea's mental decline, was a recipe for disaster. Because, unbeknownst to everyone, about four months after their daughter's birth, Andrea's postpartum psychosis would reappear, coming back stronger than it ever had. and this time it was escalated even further by a tragic life event.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
On March 12, 2001, Andrea and her four siblings rushed to the hospital to be by their father's side. Sadly, he would die after a seven-year battle with Alzheimer's disease.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
During the stay, Andrea refused to eat, drink, or talk to anyone. She also refused all medications. So her psychiatrist, Dr. Muhammad A. Saeed, and her physician, Dr. Patricia Cork, decided to write a letter to the Galveston County Probate Judge, Gladys Burwell, to have her legally committed to the Austin State Hospital.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Both doctors believed that Andrea was a danger to herself and that she needed further treatment at the facility in Austin. Interestingly, during their assessment of Andrea, the doctors left one box unchecked, a box that read, is likely to cause serious harm to others. So clearly, no one ever thought that Andrea was capable of hurting her own children.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
They just thought she was a danger to herself. And to be fair, throughout her years in and out of psychiatric hospitals, Andrea had never shown any signs that she was going to harm her children. Only herself. If anything, she was a good mother who dedicated her life to caring for them. She baked them cakes, taught them in school, sewed them costumes, and played with them all day long.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
So no one ever really knew what she was truly capable of.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
In Dr. Saeed's final notes, he wrote, On the day of discharge, the patient appeared dressed and groomed casually and hygiene was good. The patient waved at me and seemed much more interactive today. No delusions or hallucinations. No suicidal or homicidal ideation. The day after her discharge, Andrea would attend her mandatory group therapy session.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
But when it ended, she told Rusty that she didn't think it was beneficial, as all they did was watch a movie about addiction. A few days later, Rusty called Dr. Saeed and told him about Andrea's improvements. He said she was interacting with the children. communicating more, and she was in good spirits. The only issues she had been having was difficulty falling asleep at night.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
He also told him about how Andrea didn't want to go to group therapy anymore, and a few days later, she was officially discharged from her outpatient therapy. But despite Andrea's improvements, the doctors warned Rusty that Andrea was not to be left alone with the children. In May of 2001, Rusty called his mother, Dora, and asked if she could come help watch the children.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And of course, she agreed.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
We just released part two of this story on our Patreon for those who subscribe to our top two tiers. So if you want to listen to part two, the link to our Patreon is in our show notes. If not, we'll see you next week for the finale of the Andrea Yates story. Hey, everybody. It's Colin here. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Murder in America.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
It's always such a pleasure to have everybody out there. Courtney and I are so grateful to be here. 2025, we started the show four years ago, which is crazy to think that we've been doing it that long. And we didn't expect to be here. We're just filled with gratefulness and happiness and joy. We're just so glad to have so many people out there that tune in every week.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And this story hits close to home because we live in Houston and Courtney and I have actually been to the Yates house. I included a little part about her story in a different documentary that I did on YouTube. And it's weird because it's such a nice neighborhood. It's just a very calm, nice place. And you would never expect that such an infamous event occurred inside one of those houses.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
If you want to join us on Patreon, you can get access to bonus episodes of the show, early and ad-free access to all of our episodes, and so much more. So if you love Murder in America and you want more content and you've never been on Patreon, I would highly suggest you go sign up because Immediately upon sign up, you'll get access to a whole library of bonus episodes. There's over 100 on there.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
So yeah, if you love the show, that's a great way to help support us. As always, be sure to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America. Be sure to listen to our other show, The Conspiracy Files. We also have another show that's coming soon. So it's a really exciting year. But yeah, we'll catch you guys next week for part two. We will be back next Friday.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
As always, thanks for tuning in and I'll catch you on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
After graduation, Andrea attended the University of Texas Health Science Center, and throughout college, she worked at a grocery store to help pay the bills. Now, there isn't much out there about her college experience, but one can assume it wasn't very eventful. Andrea wasn't the party type.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
She was religious and very studious, so she took her education seriously and eventually earned a bachelor's degree in nursing. This was the perfect job for Andrea. Throughout her whole life, she loved to help people. In fact, her brother Brian would later say that Andrea had a helpful spirit for her entire life. When she was younger, she would even help the elderly people in her neighborhood.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
So a career in nursing was the perfect fit. Following college, she would get a job at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in downtown Houston. It was a big deal for Andrea, as MD Anderson is a celebrated research hospital and one of the best cancer hospitals in the country. During her time there, she rented out a small apartment in southeast Houston and mostly kept to herself.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Outside of work, she didn't do much. Occasionally, she would grab lunch with a friend, visit her parents in town, and run errands. But other than that, her life was pretty mundane. She definitely wasn't putting herself out there in the Houston dating scene. In fact, at this point, Andrea had never even had a boyfriend, not one. But she didn't mind.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
She knew her husband would come along when the time was right. But one thing Andrea did enjoy doing around this time was floating in her apartment's pool. Throughout her life, the water seemed to bring her comfort, especially in the scalding hot Texas summers.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
Russell Edison Yates Jr., otherwise known as Rusty, was born in New York but raised in a small town called Hermitage in north-central Tennessee. And unlike Andrea, he was very social and popular. Growing up, he had a lot of friends and was an all-star football player at DuPont High School.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
According to people that knew him, he was one of those charismatic jocks that everyone knew, but he was also very religious. Every single Sunday morning, Rusty would go to church, and on Sunday evenings, he would meet up with his youth group for Bible studies. In the summers, when he wasn't practicing football, he would travel with the Methodist Youth Fellowship for summer camps.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
and various other church outings like trips to amusement parks and movie nights. One of his high school friends, a woman named Tracy Alvarez, stated, He could be so carefree at times, then, at the next minute, he could be very serious about his religion, whatever. Religion was very important to him then, especially. And the one thing he and Andrea had in common was their intelligence.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
During his senior year of high school, Rusty was in multiple advanced placement classes, was president of the National Honor Society, was a member of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and he worked as a library aide. It was ironic for everyone that knew him, because not only was he your typical football jock, but he was also incredibly smart.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
His friend Tracy stated, "...I think what stuck in our minds was that he played football, but was in all the advanced classes. You were either a jock or very intelligent or one of the kids that did drugs." It seemed as if Rusty Yates had it all at DuPont High School. He was even elected Mr. DuPont by his peers. And he was chosen for who's who among American high school students.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
While Rusty was finishing his last few years of college, he was actually selected to be a part of a NASA cooperative program in Houston. This was a very big opportunity for him. The students who were picked got to spend three semesters at NASA, designing and building parts of a shuttle, while working with some of the smartest people in the country.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
And at the end of this program, many of the students were even offered a job at NASA. This was huge for Rusty. They only picked a handful of students to be a part of this, and he was one of them. Before he knew it, he was moving out to Houston, Texas. The three semesters at NASA went by in the blink of an eye, and Rusty made a good impression there.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
After graduating summa cum laude from Auburn, NASA even offered him a job as a junior engineer. And during his time there, Rusty was considered to be a great employee. He always showed up on time and did exactly as he was told. But according to his coworkers, he was unremarkable. One of his coworkers said, He was a pretty quiet guy to himself, you know? He's not one of these high-energy types.
Murder In America
EP. 184: TEXAS - Andrea Yates: The Mother Who Drowned Her 5 Children In A Bathtub (PT. 1)
He was smart and knew what he was doing. He'd like to have a good time, laugh at the jokes. If something crazy happened in the lab that was funny, he would laugh. He wasn't like the class clown. He wasn't anything like that. But when the situation would arise... he would laugh just like everyone else. Nothing bizarre, nothing strange back then.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
And I'm Colin Brown.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
So there it is, the confession that ultimately got Donovan Holt arrested. After recording it, Jamie immediately handed it over to the police, and thankfully she did, or Donovan Holt probably never would have been behind bars in the first place for killing his wife. Jamie Dickerson is the sole reason that there's any semblance of justice here, for lack of a better word.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
But like we mentioned, the outcome of this case is not what anybody wanted. If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories, and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
the conspiracy files we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events pedophile rings government corruption ritual sacrifice no topic is untouched on this show everything that we talk about on the conspiracy files is backed up with fact i release
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real it's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories we're presenting you people with facts telling you the story walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with murder in america
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
and then letting the listener decide what they think anyways you should definitely give it a listen it's called the conspiracy files the links are in the description of this show and you can find it on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and now let's get back to our story following donovan's sentence courtney and i called jamie and her husband jeremiah on zoom to discuss everything so here are some parts of that interview
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
The whole thing is insane.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
None of it makes sense. I can't understand why they have such a hard time seeing the truth, especially when it's all there.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
It's right in front of them. It's right here in front of them. Like the way that you guys spelled it out, the way that we spelled it out in the podcast, it's like very, very obvious what actually happened. So it's one of those things where for us, it's like sitting and actually analyzing what they said and what they've done. It just makes no sense at all whatsoever.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
They give people with DUIs more time.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
He used to play video games?
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
I don't know about you guys, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping my money too. After years of overpaying for wireless, I finally got fed up from crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run and switched to Mint Mobile.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
It's crazy how much these big carriers like to charge you for every little thing. It's like clockwork. When it's time to pay my wireless bill, I'm like, oh my. Hey, God, this is crazy. You're charging me for this and that, but not with Mint Mobile.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
You can say bye-bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw-dropping monthly bills, and unexpected overages because Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all of your existing contacts. So it's incredibly easy and painless to switch over. And I think it's about time to ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for just 15 bucks a month. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash america. That's mintmobile.com slash america. Upfront payment of $45 for 3-month 5GB plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. And now, let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
In this next part, Jamie talks about a paper that the police department sent her and attached with something called a tort act, where it essentially says that the police department can't be held liable for their mistakes in the investigation.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
I hate corruption.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
More than anything, especially from these people that are supposed to protect. Yeah. And they protect themselves. It's just. Yeah. Yes. If they protect and serve, who are they protecting? Yeah. It really makes me wonder why? Like, why?
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
I just don't even get how... he can't be charged and like given a longer sentence just based on the lying to police.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Yeah. Yeah.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
those are changes that we can get made and if they can use her as a case study nationwide then go for it i said i'm all for that now jamie didn't end up going to donovan's sentencing trial it was too disappointing of a day and she was afraid of how donovan would react she said that one look in her direction one facial expression might have set her off so she decided not to so if you would have gone to the hearing you would have been able to read
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Here's the video that Jamie posted of her victim impact statement.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Jamie said that although she didn't get to confront him in court, she has written to him several times since he's been in jail. Donovan also has written Serenity and Denzel.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
We put like the help in the community.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, the National Domestic Violence Hotline number is 1-800-799-7233. If you are in a situation where you can't call, you can also text them to get help. All you have to do is text the word START to 88788. Hey everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
I know this wasn't like a typical episode of our show, but we were incredibly involved with telling this story and you know. But when we first decided to cover the April Holt story, we dove headfirst into everything. And now at this point, we're very good friends with Jamie, her husband Jeremiah, their family. And we felt that an update like this was definitely warranted.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Because if there's one word I can use to describe this entire case and affair, I would choose the word injustice. It is absolutely crazy to me to see how this case turned out. with all of the evidence, everything that was found and discovered, but it's inspired Courtney and I to continue fighting, and I hope that Jamie's words can inspire you guys at home as well.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
If you want to join us on Patreon, just head to patreon.com and search for Murder in America, You can get access to bonus episodes of the show on there, plus ad-free early access to all of our main feed episodes. So if you don't like the ads, consider joining us on Patreon.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
If you haven't followed us on Instagram yet, make sure to follow us at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. And also be sure to leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this show. It really helps us out a lot. Anyways, y'all, we will be back next week with a regular episode of the show.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
But next week is that story that I've wanted to share for a long time that I definitely feel needs more awareness raised around it. Anyways, y'all, have a great weekend. I'll catch y'all on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Their investigation from the very beginning was one of the most flawed investigations I have ever seen, and I think that they know that. We of course went into more detail on that throughout our coverage of the case, but maybe a reckless homicide charge was just the easiest way to put this all behind them. So that's exactly what they charged him with.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
For months, Jamie Dickerson has been on edge, waiting to find out the fate of Donovan Holt, her daughter's killer. and on february 18th 2025 that day finally came but it was not at all what anyone wanted horrifically donovan was sentenced to two years in jail and eight years in community corrections now we didn't really know what community corrections was
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
but it's essentially a place where prisoners go after prison where they're supervised but they can still work they can still go out into the community and it's pretty much like they're on parole sadly donovan's sentence also included time served so he will be out in community corrections in just 18 months keep in mind this is the same man who strangled his wife to death staged her suicide sent their son in to find her body
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
and then lied to the police and the family about it for an entire year. Now, let's just hypothesize for a second and say that April's death was an accident. Courtney and I personally don't believe that it was, but for storytelling purposes, let's just say that he did kill her during sex. In our opinion, it's crazy that he got two years, even for everything he did afterwards.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
Tampering with evidence, child endangerment for sending Denzel in there that day, lying to the police. There were so many crimes committed trying to cover up what was done. And at the end of the day, Donovan only got two years. Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program, so please
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
If you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case
She had to have more.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
After the shooting, his wife Christine told reporters that she'll never forget the day that she got that knock on her door. The knock that all military families dread. According to the website travismanion.org, John was always trying to find ways to show his love and make his loved ones feel special.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
On the first Valentine's Day as a married man, John wanted to do something special for his wife, Christine, who just had foot surgery. Although John was not a cook, he took the time to make Christine heart-shaped hamburgers. It meant so much to Christine that John took the time to try and cook and make something so special for her that it became a tradition for the two of them.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
John Paul Gaffney was the kindest man on earth. john put a lot of value on his personal relationships particularly with his family and close friends he was always trying to find ways to show his love and make his loved ones feel special sadly despite his heroism that day captain john p gaffney was unable to take down the gunman and from there more people would lose their lives
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Francesca Vales grew up in Chicago and her family said she could always be seen laughing, smiling, and dancing. Growing up, she loved to salsa dance and would later join her school's dance team. She had such a cheerful spirit, she even worked for free as a clown for children's birthday parties. Her father would later say, she was a woman that was very happy. Her laugh, her smile, her kindness.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
She was beautiful. She also had dreams of joining the military. Her father, Juan, who was a Colombian immigrant, had moved to the United States in the 1970s. And he always wanted to enlist, but he didn't meet the requirements. So Francesca vowed to carry this dream for him. She had actually been deployed to Iraq earlier that year. But while there, she got pregnant, so she came home early.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
She had only been in Killeen, Texas for three days.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
the time she was two months pregnant and she was really excited for her parents to meet her boyfriend whom she had met during deployment sadly both francesca and her child would die that day when her family heard the news they were devastated their biggest fears had come true of course as a parent they were so proud of francesca for serving her country but they also worried about her her family recalled feeling a little relieved when they found out she was pregnant
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
because they knew she would come home from Iraq and be safe. Little did they know, coming home would put her in direct danger. Her father would later tell reporters through sobs, What I don't understand is how this demented man could do this. How could she die at the hands of her own people? That's what I don't understand. I don't understand, and I will never understand.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Dr. Michael Cahill grew up in Spokane, Washington. After high school, he joined the 161st Unit National Guard while also going to school. Eventually, he would meet his wife, Jolene, and the two would go on to have three children.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Mike's career as a physician's assistant took him all around the U.S., but in 1997, he would move to Temple, Texas, where he was eventually offered a job at the Soldier Readiness Center to help soldiers go through medical checks before deployment. His family said that he absolutely loved his job. So much so, he traveled over 120 miles to work every single day.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
At the time of the shooting, Dr. Cahill had actually just returned back to work after taking a much-needed break. You see, he had just suffered a heart attack, and sadly, he would survive it, only to be shot down and killed at work. But Mike's bravery wouldn't go unnoticed. He was posthumously awarded the Secretary of the Army Award for Valor.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
now normally civilians can't win this award but for him they made an exception his daughter would later say he did that day what he did every day he protected the safety and well-being of his soldiers parents and co-workers no matter what the cost dr kahil was remembered for his love of books and old movies an old co-worker would write on his obituary he had a great sense of humor and mild manner
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
both of which were calming to soldiers going into the combat zone and those who had recently returned. He spent a lifetime in the service of soldiers and enhanced the health and welfare of numerous individuals who, unknowingly, will bear the legacy he established. Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on Instagram, Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
It's Thursday, November 5th, 2009 in Killeen, Texas. And within this town is a military base called Fort Hood. On this day in particular, over 300 soldiers were crowded inside the base's Soldier Readiness Processing Center. Typically, before a soldier gets deployed, they'll go here to ensure that everything is ready for deployment.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Back inside the SRP center, the gunman continued firing at people all around him. Staff Sergeant Tuan Nguyen said that when the shots first rang out, he thought it was a drill, but then he saw the blood, the overwhelming amount of blood that began to cover the floors.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Tuan later said that he dropped to the ground and attempted to crawl to safety, but he suddenly saw the flash of a red laser, followed by a sharp pain in his upper left thigh. He had been shot, but luckily he was able to crawl to a nearby cubicle. However, from this position, he watched as several other soldiers were shot. Right next to him, Specialist Kiara Bono was shot in the head.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Tuan would later recall that he saw spurts of blood coming out of her head wound. Surprisingly, Kiara would make it out alive. but she would face a lifetime of issues due to her injury. Another nearby soldier who was shot was Specialist Dana Roscoe Ferguson. When the shooting first started, she dropped to the ground and kept quiet, hoping that the shooter wouldn't see her.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But soon enough, he approached and towered over her as she laid on the ground. Horrifically, he aimed the gun right at her face. Hoping to shield her head, Dana put her arms over her face as the gunman fired several shots. Luckily, she didn't suffer from any head wounds, but she was shot twice in the arm and once in the leg. Dana would end up surviving the shooting, unlike countless others.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The center has a number of services like dental and eye exams, hearing tests, vaccinations, and physicals. They even help you set up your wills and life insurance. just in case you're killed in the line of duty.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now, like we mentioned, most of the victims were in the waiting room of the SRP center, but soon enough, there was no one left to shoot out there. So the gunman then made his way towards the back offices, where people had been getting examinations. A man named Marquest Smith had gone there that afternoon to get an allergy shot.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Before the shooting started, he had just been called into the back offices when he and the clerk he was with heard the shots. Instinctively, he grabbed her arm and they took cover under a nearby desk. Neither of them knew exactly what was going on, and when the sounds of gunfire finally paused, Marquess decided to peek his head out to see what happened.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
However, that image would haunt him for the rest of his life. All around the room, bodies covered the floors. There was more blood than he had ever seen in his life, and the wounded were screaming. However, there were still people trying to take the gunman down, one being Specialist Frederick Green.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Specialist Frederick Green was just 29 years old. He was described by others as a quiet and intelligent man who deeply cared for the people in his life. Growing up in East Tennessee, Frederick sang for his church's choir, and he spent a lot of time reading the Bible.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
His family would later say that as a young boy, he was constantly playing with army men, and he knew from a young age that that's exactly what he would be when he grew up. In 2008, he finally fulfilled that dream and joined the army. In his free time, Frederick loved to read, play Dungeons and Dragons, and spend time with his wife and two kids.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
His mother said that he'll be remembered as a kind, gentle, and humble man, a dedicated soldier, and a wonderful son. The world has lost an amazing hero, and a true hero he was. Following the shooting, the army would also recognize his bravery that day. General Edward Daly would say, Today we remember his active courage that prevented an even greater tragedy from unfolding that day.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
He took heroic actions to charge the shooter during that terrorist attack. We will never forget his sacrifice that day.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
19-year-old Aaron Namalka grew up in Utah. Originally, his plan was to do missionary work for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After all, that's what all of his older brothers and sisters did. But as he grew up, he had other plans for his life. He wanted to follow in his grandpa's footsteps and join the army.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
After enlisting, many of his fellow soldiers called him Milkman due to his last name. Everyone said that he had the best sense of humor and deep respect for his country. which is exactly why he decided to join the military. Aaron also loved his family. He even got his last name tattooed on his arm in big letters.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But they all laughed at him because, upside down, the tattoo looked like it read the name Thomas. His girlfriend Kristen would later say, At the time of the shooting,
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
aaron had just completed his training in disarming explosives and he was sent to leave for his first line of duty overseas months prior aaron had talked to his grandpa michael about his job his grandpa said i asked him it's kind of dangerous isn't it and he said oh it's all right grandpa he loved what he was doing he thought what he was doing was the greatest thing in life after the shooting his father would tell reporters his mission is completed in this life he now serves in a higher calling in heaven
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
29-year-old Staff Sergeant Amy Sue Kruger was born and raised in Wisconsin. After graduating from high school, she attended UW Sheboygan. But after the 9-11 terrorist attacks, she decided to put her education on hold and enlist in the Army.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Her mother would later say that she would jokingly tell her daughter that she wouldn't be able to take down Osama bin Laden by herself, to which Amy would always respond, Watch me. At the time, Amy was about a month away from her second deployment to Afghanistan. Her first deployment was in 2003.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
When she came home, she enrolled in school, but then again in 2008, she decided to volunteer for another deployment. Amy had arrived at Fort Hood about a month prior to the shooting to get everything squared away. That afternoon, she had been at the SRP Center to get shots and an eye exam. Amy's family said that she fiercely loved the people in her life.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
She was determined, passionate, and a lot of fun. In her free time, she likes to hang out with friends, shoot pool, play sheep's head volleyball and softball, and she made sure to live every single day to the fullest.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
As Nidal Hasan made his way over to Fort Hood Soldier Readiness Processing Center, many people inside described it as a normal day. But it was particularly busy that day. Nearly every seat in the waiting room was filled. One by one, the staff would call the name of a soldier,
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now we weren't able to find any details on exactly what happened in Captain Seeger's death, when or even where he was shot within the building, but we do know some details about his life. Born in Sauk County, Wisconsin, Russell didn't grow up always wanting to join the military like so many people in our story.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
In fact, he spent his early years going to school earning a BSN and MSN degree from Marquette University College of Nursing. From there, he worked as a nurse practitioner and an instructor at Bryant and Stratton College. However, over the years, he witnessed just how hard it was for veterans to adjust back into normal life.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And he had a particular interest in working with veterans who had PTSD, and he wanted to do something about it. But that meant he'd have to change his entire career path. So at the age of 47, while many are counting down the years until retirement, Russell decided to join the Army Reserve as an Army Nurse Corps officer.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
at the time of the shooting russell was scheduled to leave for afghanistan in less than a month he had just arrived at fort hood for training his friend tucker said that whether he was in a uniform or not rusty loved helping others in his free time he loved to teach play tennis and spend time with his wife and son his friend tucker said rusty was a deeply spiritual man who felt his calling was to help veterans and soldiers we honor the life and service of captain rusty sieger and trust that his precious memory and inspiring legacy
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
will be carried forward in the lives of his family, his friends, his patients, and his brothers and sisters in arms."
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
and they would make their way to the back for an exam at around 1 25 pm 44 year old staff sergeant paul martin walked through the doors and scanned the waiting room for an open seat where he could finish his endless stack of paperwork he had already gone through most of the medical examinations but he still had a few more pages of paperwork to fill out before he could be cleared for deployment to iraq
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Staff Sergeant Justin DeCrow grew up in Plymouth, Indiana. After graduating high school in 1996, he went on to marry his high school sweetheart, Mary Kay. Then after that, he went on to pursue his life dream of joining the Army. His wife would later say, Throughout the years, Justin and Mary Kay would have a daughter while he worked hard as a satellite communications operator-maintainer.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
His friend Christopher Riley said, He was a caring instructor, a great non-commissioned officer, and a strong motivator. I don't think he received the recognition he deserved for all that he did. I hope I can be half the NCO he was. Justin had been living at Fort Hood since September and was about to deploy to Iraq.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
but according to everyone who had the pleasure of meeting him, he made a lasting impact on their lives. His friend Shino would later say, Staff Sergeant DeCrow was a true family man. He was dedicated to his wife, daughter, and the community around him.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Despite the long hours that he worked as an instructor slash squad leader, he dedicated much of his free time to the Golden Harvest Food Bank and the local 4-H club. Staff Sergeant DeCrow always gave his all. He loved the military and soldiering. He lived by setting the example and could always be counted on professionally and personally.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Another friend of his, Michael Hutchings, said, He was the funniest man I ever met. You couldn't be mad around him. He would walk into a room and everyone just lit up. Following his death, many of his loved ones wrote to Facebook about the special memories they had of Justin. In response, his wife wrote, Thank you so much for sharing all of your wonderful memories.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
It is such a comfort to know that he touched so many lives in so many ways. Our daughter Kyla and I appreciate all of the kindness and support that we've received. He truly was one in a million, and we love him so much. His infectious charm and wit always put others at ease. He will be greatly missed.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories, and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
luckily paul spotted an open seat in the fourth row where he could sit down and complete the forms so paul shuffled past a row of people and sat down completely lost in his own thoughts the room was mostly quiet with only the sound of shuffling papers and the low hum of conversation
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America. and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The links are in the description of this show and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The last soldier to lose their life at the SRP Center was 22-year-old specialist Jason Dean Hunt, or JD, as his loved ones called him. Jason grew up in Frederick, Oklahoma, and according to everyone that knew him, he was the nice but quiet guy who kept to himself. In fact, he was even voted most quiet in his 2005 graduating class.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Jason's sister Layla would later say that when Jason was in high school, they had to dissect a cat, and he was so disturbed by it, he got his mom to drive up to the school and sign a form to have him exempt from the dissection. But that was just the kind of person Jason was. He didn't feel right cutting up a dead animal.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
His grandmother, Kay Smith, said, After graduating high school, Jason decided to join the military. His family said that he thought it would shape him into a man.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
As the chaos continued inside, specialist Elliot Valdez, a photographer at Fort Hood, had been outside the Howes Theater setting up equipment for a graduation when he witnessed several people screaming as they rushed out of the S Center. At first, he didn't understand what was happening, but then he saw wounded soldiers lying around.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
He would later say, "...they already had a lot of people out in the grass and field, working on people. A lot of people had their ACU tops off, using them as bandages, wraps, trying to stabilize people." It was pretty noisy, a lot of people running from inside running to the parking lot.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
About 10 minutes into the shooting, base commanders announced the Force Protection Condition Delta, which is a system used to respond to terrorism against the military. From there, they went on Fort Hood's loudspeaker and told everyone in the area to take cover, get away from windows, lock their doors, and hide. Nearby schools and daycares in Killeen were also put on lockdown.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And soon enough, everyone in town learned that a terrorist attack was taking place at Fort Hood.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
After taking down the gunman, Major Steven Richter ran over to him. There was a bullet hole directly in the shooter's chest. He was lying unconscious in the grass. But just to be safe, he picked up the shooter's gun to move it away from him. He would later say that the barrel was so hot it burned his fingers.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But from here, he quickly ripped off the gunman's shirt and shoved his index finger into the gunshot wound to stop the bleeding. At the end of the day, they wanted this man to pay for his actions, which meant that they had to try and keep him alive.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Two miles away at the Darnell Medical Center, hospital staff had not been prepared for the influx of patients they were about to receive. In fact, when the wounded started to arrive, most of the emergency staff had been outside smoking cigarettes, but they would soon have to spring into action.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The Darnell Medical Center was so overwhelmed, Bell County Dispatch had to contact the world-class trauma center in nearby Temple, Texas, called Scott & White Medical Center. And luckily, they immediately sent out their trauma teams to help. At the hospital, physicians, surgeons, and operating rooms were made ready for the wounded.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
In fact, Scott and White had decided to close their doors to the public so they could solely focus on the Fort Hood victims. The severely wounded were airlifted in army choppers and taken to Scott and White. Disturbingly, the shooter himself was a part of this group. Now, many of the people being airlifted were too wounded to be aware of their surroundings.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
but think about how scary it would be to look over and see the gunman lying next to you in a helicopter.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Photographs were taken of Nadal's apartment, dumpsters were removed for evidence, and neighbors were questioned. Investigators confiscated several items left behind by Nadal, including a large paper shredder, a white prayer cap, old prescriptions including a 2001 prescription for Combovir, an HIV medication, empty ammunition boxes, an empty laser box, and other items.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
At the crime scene, investigators discovered 146 spent shell casings inside, 69 outside, and Nadal had 177 unspent rounds still inside his pockets when he was taken into custody.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Major Parrish needs to see you immediately. It's an emergency.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Nadal's aunt, Nawal Hassan, would later tell reporters that Nadal must have snapped because he was never known to be violent or angry. His nephew, Muhammad Hassan, added that the army was partially to blame due to their insensitivity to Islam, saying, But for most of Nadal's family members, they condemned his actions, saying they were despicable and deplorable.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
and that they had not been raised to act out in violence. His cousin, Nader Hassan, was even more shocked as the two had always been close. There had never been any indication that Nadal was violent, and in a later documentary, he would say that he believed that Nadal was suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
As for Nadal's one friend, Dwayne Reasoner, he told the BBC that he had no pity for the soldiers who had been instructed to kill Muslims in the Middle East. and that he would never condemn Nadal for his actions. And like we mentioned in Part 1, Nadal had been in contact over the years with Anwar al-Awlaki, who has ties to Al-Qaeda and several other terrorists.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And after the shooting, Anwar al-Awlaki would write on his blog that Nadal was a hero for what he had done. He stated, "...working in the American army to kill Muslims is a betrayal to Islam. The American Muslims' loyalty is to the Muslim nation and not to America." and brother Nidal is proof of that through his blessed operation.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
He would go on to say, Nidal Hasan was one of my students, and I am proud of that. I am proud of Nidal Hasan, and this was a heroic and wonderful act. Other radicalized Muslims also praised Nidal for what he had done on various social media sites, and one man even ordered an arrangement of flowers to be delivered to Nidal's hospital room.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But as word spread through the Islamic community that one of their own had committed the mass murder, they were swift to condemn his actions through online statements. The Council on American Islamic Relations stated, We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
something that upset a lot of people was that the department of defense labeled this massacre as workplace violence instead of an act of terrorism but in their investigation they revealed how unprepared the military was for an internal threat some of the key points found were that there had been failures that allowed nadal to remain undetected despite multiple warning signs including his extremist views and correspondence with al-laki
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
highlighted gaps that failed to recognize and address inside threats they suggested stricter protection measures for the military enhanced security protocols threat assessments and how to move forward by recognizing red flags when a service member may be showing signs of radicalization ultimately they made 79 recommendations for improvement personnel force protection information sharing emergency response and health affairs
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
November 10, 2009. On that day, the 13 victims of the massacre were honored at a memorial service. On the podium up front were pictures of the deceased, next to 13 pairs of empty military boots, 13 rifles, and 13 helmets. President Obama addressed the nation at the memorial service, and in part he said, This is a time of war. Yet these Americans did not die on a foreign field of battle.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
They were killed here on American soil, in the heart of this great state, in the heart of this great American community. This is the fact that makes the tragedy even more painful, even more incomprehensible. For those families who have lost a loved one, no words can fill the void that's been left. We knew these men and women as soldiers and caregivers.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
You knew them as mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, sisters and brothers. But here's what you must also know. Your loved ones endure through the life of our nation. Their memory will be honored in the places they lived and by the people they touched. Their life's work is our security and the freedom that we all too often take for granted.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Every evening that the sun sets on a tranquil town, every dawn that a flag is unfurled, every moment that an American enjoys life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that is their legacy. It may be hard to comprehend the twisted logic that led to this tragedy, but this much we do know. No faith justifies these murderous and craven acts. No just and loving God looks upon them with favor.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
For what he has done, we know that the killer will be met with justice, in this world and the next.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The 44-year-old Staff Sergeant, Paul Martin, who we mentioned earlier, said that when the shots first rang out, he thought it was some sick kind of prank. He even thought that someone had been shooting a paintball gun, but then he felt a sharp pain in his arm. A pain way stronger than anything he had felt before. Instinctively, he grabbed his arm.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
I would like to begin by repenting to Almighty Allah and apologize to the Mujahideen, the believers and the innocent. I ask for their forgiveness and their prayers. I ask for their forgiveness for participating in the illegal and immoral aggression against Muslims, their religion, and deception of many innocent men, women, and children.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
As a United States Army psychiatrist, my job was to conserve the fighting strength of military armed forces personnel, and by deceit, to win the hearts and minds of Muslims throughout the world. Using American Muslim soldiers such as myself to help win the hearts and minds of native and desperate Muslims around the world is a powerful strategy indeed.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
I saw and heard how we would give money to Muslim politicians and support projects like the building of schools and mosques so we could ultimately dictate what is said, read, and done. and I am too ashamed to even mention the clandestine and covert operations that have already occurred or are still in progress about the Muslim world.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
My complicity was on behalf of a government that openly acknowledges that it would hate for the law of Almighty Allah to be the supreme law of the land.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
I would like to thank those champions of Islam for awakening me from my slumber, for educating and inspiring me for trying to establish the law of Almighty Allah as supreme for future generations, and for serving as role models on how Muslims should stand up against tyranny and oppression.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
These champions of Islam, or the Mujahideen, they are spread out across the globe in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and other parts of the world. Ask Almighty Allah to unite the believers as one solid fighting structure and not allow the enemies of His plan divide us.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now, before that day would come, Nadal wrote several lengthy statements that he wanted to read in court with his reasoning behind the attack. First, he stated that he had wanted to help the Mujahideen against the enemies of Islam, but had a dilemma with breaking an oath he took to defend the United States.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Apparently, in Islam, the breaking of a contract or oath is a sin, but he believed that the violence had been just since he was doing it in the name of Allah to protect Islam and Muslims. Nadal wrote, To the court and members of this panel, thank you for providing this opportunity so that I may address you as well as family and friends of those who died and were injured on November 5th, 2009.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
When he looked down, he could see blood oozing between his fingers. And it was at that moment when he realized he had been shot. Paul was sitting in the fourth row, so he was actually one of the first people shot. And he knew right then that he needed to think quickly if he wanted to make it out alive. After dropping to the ground, Paul closed his eyes and he played dead.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
I understand that many of you may turn away from me in anger because of my actions. I recognize that nothing I can do or say will ever fully restore your losses, erase your agony, or ease your despair, all of which I have brought upon you. but I ask you to listen attentively because it's important for you to understand my actions and specifically why I am making an apology.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
On November 5th, 2009, I committed an act in an attempt to defend my religion. The US is engaged in a war against Islam and as multiple surveys affirm, this belief is not particular to me, but shared by a majority of Muslims worldwide. I am an American, but God commands me to be Muslim first and foremost.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But even as an American, my actions seem more palatable knowing that a majority of international legal scholars, as well as many American legal scholars, and even graduates of West Point thought that the attack in Iraq was illegal. Similar reasoning can also be applied to the attack in Afghanistan. And as a Muslim, I can never engage in a fight against God.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
It's one thing for the US to say they don't want God's law to reign supreme as the law of the land, but to try and enforce that philosophy in Muslim lands is not acceptable. But in my zeal to help the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and post-Saddam Iraq, I made an error. I broke an explicit covenant, my oath of office, that I took voluntarily, not under duress.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Muslims in the US have been my harshest critics in this regard. I am not an Islamic scholar and regret both making a covenant that had the potential to force me to fight against my religion, and I now regret breaking such an inviolable oath that led to the deaths and injuries that I will now be held accountable to Almighty God. For that, I apologize.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Nadal would later renounce his United States citizenship and disassociate himself with the oath that he took to protect the United States in the military. Perhaps this made him feel better about what he had done, but for Nadal's family members, they would soon discover that his actions affected their lives as well.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
In the years after the shooting, everyone in America was patiently waiting for Nadal's trial to come around. But they would face some problems along the way. On August 22, 2012, after his trial had already been delayed, Nadal started growing out his beard. He said that the beard represented his Islamic faith.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Nadal's Imam would tell the court that the beard was a sincere personal religious conviction. However, Army prosecutors believed it differently. They thought it was a way for Nadal to prevent witnesses at the SRP Center to positively identify him as the attacker.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now, this may have been a bit of a reach, as this really isn't a whodunit type trial, but in the end, the presiding judge stated that if Nadal did not shave his beard, then it would be forcibly shaved. The back and forth regarding Nadal's beard continued for months, which ended up causing several delays with Nadal's trial.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And with every delay, the victim's family members were growing more and more impatient, which is understandable. These trials tend to loom over the people affected by these murders. Many people just want to get it over with so they can start healing. So in the end, the courts ended up allowing Nadal to keep his beard.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now, in the military, they have strict rules about facial hair, so him growing a long beard almost seemed like a message. A message that Nadal had completely distanced himself from his military past. Judge Colonel Tara Osborne warned Nadal that the military jurors might not have any mercy on him if he kept his beard.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But Nadal didn't care, because in the end, he already knew that he would be found guilty.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Interestingly, the judge wouldn't allow any of the emails between Nadal and Anwar al-Awlaki to be presented in court. Now, by this point, Awlaki had actually been killed in a US drone strike in 2011, but the prosecution wanted to show it to the jury to show how radicalized Nadal had become. But in the end, I guess they wouldn't need it.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Ultimately, Nadal did not present a defense in his trial, and on August 21st, he rested his case. The next day, August 22nd, Colonel Steve Hendricks issued a 90-minute closing statement, where he reiterated that Nadal had murdered as many people as he could, choosing the SRP Center because it was very busy. a fact that Nadal had written in a note to himself.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
According to Colonel Hendricks, Nadal had been motivated by two things, murder as many American soldiers as possible and avoid deployment to Afghanistan. They argued that Nadal was in fact a homegrown terrorist. Over 11 days, 90 witnesses had testified, and the jury heard horrific stories from the people who had been inside the SRP Center on the day of the shooting.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
On August 23rd, after only six hours of deliberations, the jury found Nidal Hasan guilty of 45 counts of premeditated murder and attempted murder. The verdict came only a few weeks shy of Nidal's 43rd birthday.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
On February 6, 2015, Secretary of the Army John McHugh announced that all the victims during the Fort Hood Massacre, as well as the wounded, would receive the Purple Heart Medal. Civilians who were hurt or wounded would receive the Secretary of Defense Medal for the Defense of Freedom, an honor that is equivalent to the Purple Heart for soldiers.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
John McHugh stated, "...the Purple Heart's strict eligibility criteria had prevented us from awarding it to victims of the horrific attack at Fort Hood." Now that Congress has changed the criteria, we believe there is sufficient reason to allow these men and women to be awarded and recognized with either the Purple Heart or in the case of civilians, the Defense of Freedom Medal.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
It's an appropriate recognition of their service and sacrifice. In addition, the Fort Hood massacre was reclassified from workplace violence to an act of terrorism after victims, their family members and lawmakers urged legislative changes within the National Defense Authorization Act. and lawmakers urged legislative changes within the National Defense Authorization Act.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
The failure to acknowledge the shooting as terrorism had prevented family members of the victims and the wounded to receive the same benefits as those who lost a loved one in combat. Shockingly, these changes took six years to complete.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Now, like we mentioned in Part 1, Nadal started becoming more radicalized after his mother died. Nadal has since corresponded with researcher Catherine Poppy, in which she has indicated that he believed his mother's soul would be saved if he followed through with his jihadist quest to murder his fellow soldiers.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Apparently, Nadal had battled with the idea that his mother's soul would go to hell because she had sold alcohol at the family convenience store. But despite his reasoning to justify his actions,
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
fort hood massacre will go down in history as the worst mass shooting at an american military base and also as a brutal act of lone terrorism following the shooting the town of killeen has tried to move on and heal from this tragedy the apartments where nadal lived even changed their name from casa del norte apartments to las palmas but no matter how hard they try to move on it's been difficult especially because over the years killeen texas has had many more tragedies
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
In fact, another mass shooting would take place at Fort Hood in 2014, which took the lives of four people, including the gunmen. And don't worry, we're going to talk about all of that in next week's episode.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
today courtney and i will be making a donation to the wounded warrior project a group that helps fund and provide mental health care long-term rehabilitation care career counseling and transition benefits for post 9 11 veterans who have returned home from iraq and afghanistan Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. This story is just crazy.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
It's infuriating all the warning signs they missed. The way that the government handled this entire thing, honestly, is shameful. Obviously, it should have been classified as a terrorist attack. Immediately. I just still can't believe it took six years to get to that point.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
But in the next coming weeks, as we dive even deeper into Fort Hood and the culture of violence and the mysterious suicides and the deaths and the whistleblowers that have existed there, I think you guys are going to have your minds blown because this is... Yeah, we're getting into some dark and murky waters here, and it's really, really interesting stuff.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
If you love the show and you want to help support us, please consider joining us on Patreon. If you sign up on Patreon, you can get access to bonus episodes of the show. These are full-length episodes of Murder in America, just like the one you just listened to with Courtney and I and, you know, sound design and music and everything.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
and on patreon you can also get early free access to every episode that we post so you could have heard this episode before it dropped on our main feed there's just a ton of perks we love everybody on there and we're so thankful that everyone has chosen to join us also don't Don't forget to leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening to your podcasts.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
And as always, follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover here on the show. These next few episodes, I have been really looking forward to getting into, so stay tuned. It's about to get wild. But thank y'all. I'm Colin Brown. We love you guys, and I'll catch y'all on the next one.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
As a little background, Cam Jong was originally born in Thailand, but he came to America when he was just a few years old. Growing up in St. Paul, Minnesota, Cam always knew that he wanted to join the military. After all, he came from a military family.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
According to Find a Grave, his dad and grandpa fought bravely against the Vietnamese communist forces with the support of the CIA in Laos during the Vietnam War. As a result of these actions, they were forced to flee their homeland after US military forces withdrew from Southeast Asia in 1975.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Cam came to the US as a toddler, but even at a young age, he realized the commitment and sacrifices that his father and grandfather had made for their families and their people. Growing up, Cam told his father and grandfather about his desire to follow in their footsteps and serve his country. And that's exactly what he would do.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
After high school graduation, Cam married his high school sweetheart, and the two would have three kids together. He and his family had been living in Killeen for the past five months, as he was prepared for his deployment to Iraq. According to Find a Grave, Cam saw the military as a way to give back to his country, to help his family have a better life.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
and to continue the legacy and tradition that started with his beloved father and grandfather's commitment to freedom. Any short-term suffering and separation from his family would be offset by the numerous opportunities that would open up as a result of his military service.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Sadly, Cam will not be able to capitalize on any opportunities that the military has for him, he will not be able to help his family like he wished, and he will not be able to hear his friends and families tell him how proud they are of him. Cam was tragically killed doing the only thing he knew, helping others without regards to his own situation or safety.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
He embraced his responsibilities to his family, his people, and his country. Few people would do the same thing under the same circumstances. Cam showed the world through his actions what his beliefs and values are.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
Staff Sergeant Patrick Ziegler was later rushed to the hospital where he would undergo one of several brain surgeries. And during this one, they had to remove part of his brain. Patrick would suffer from his injuries for years after the shooting. He would later say, after every brain surgery, I'd be set back to the point where I'd have to relearn. I've had to relearn how to walk four times.
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
sadly patrick also had to give up on his dream of becoming an officer he would later say i went through the complicated steps to re-enlist while i was a wounded warrior in the hopes that i would be able to reclassify or something like that but it looks like i'll be medically retiring once my medical boards are complete but patrick was at the end of the day
Murder In America
Title: EP. 188: TEXAS - The Ft. Hood Mass Shooting: A Terrorist Attack From The Inside (Pt. 2)
grateful that he made it out alive that day, as many others didn't. The following year, he was also able to marry his wife, Jessica. The wedding was actually set up by the show Extreme Makeover Home Edition, and despite doctors telling him that he may never have children, the two would go on to have a son named Liam.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And following this, they actually removed Shane from the home. They also required the entire family, including Ashley, to attend counseling sessions to work through their issues.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
During this year, he started breaking into homes, stealing whatever valuables he could find inside. After breaking in, he would sometimes even shower and eat some of their food. Now, it was reported that he would only break into the homes of people he knew, sometimes they were even friends of his. And because Welch was such a small town, everyone knew that Shane Freeman was responsible.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
But because he had such a hard home life, some people wouldn't even report the break-ins. Shane had already gone through so much and they didn't want him to go to jail. According to his dad, Danny, he did some stealing, but he just wasn't violent. But Shane's criminal behavior escalated in early January 1999.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
According to reports, Shane's grandmother, Celesta Chandler, allowed him to take her truck for a few hours, but he never returned it. Instead, Shane stole the truck and used it to pull people over on the highway. He actually purchased a red flashing light like the ones police officers use, and he put it on his grandma's stolen car.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Then at night, while driving down US Highway 69 towards Louisiana, Shane would pull people over. During one incident, he pulled over a young woman named Sabrina Shivers, and when he walked up to her vehicle, he told her he was a rookie cop, which made sense because he looked really young.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
But during this fake traffic stop, a real police officer actually pulled up, and from there, Shane immediately hopped back into his grandma's car and took off down the road.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Moments later, backup arrived, including Deputy Troy Messick, who had worked with Shane in the past. He was the officer that located Shane after he ran away. But when Deputy Messick arrived at the scene, he said that his coworker was white as a ghost. Deputy Hayes explained the situation and admitted that he had acted in self-defense.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Apparently, Deputy Hayes had ordered Shane to drop the weapon and put his hands in the air, but he refused, and the officer had no other choice but to protect himself. They had to undergo the difficult task of informing Shane's family. As you can imagine, when Danny and Kathy Freeman learned of their son's passing, they were absolutely devastated.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
When they heard the details of what happened, they didn't believe it. They agreed that Shane had issues, but he was never violent. So the story of him aiming a gun at Deputy Hayes just didn't make sense to them. Danny would later say, one cop, one shot, one 17-year-old kid. The deputy had backup coming. Why didn't he wait on backup? Didn't he have tear gas or something?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And I'm Colin Browen.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
However, despite the results of the investigation into Shane's death, his parents, Danny and Kathy Freeman, weren't convinced. They even threatened to file a wrongful death lawsuit against the Craig's County Sheriff's Department. But Danny Freeman had a lot on his hands at this time.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
In fact, in March of 1999, just months after his son's death, he had to go on trial for the child abuse charges he faced for whipping Shane with that telephone cord. But in the end, Danny would be acquitted, and when he returned back home, there was even more tension between him and the Craig County Sheriff's Department. It was reported that he became obsessed with the deputy who killed his son.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
He began following David Hayes around town, and he even parked outside of his house and would watch his family and children. When investigators learned what Danny was up to, they were concerned that Danny was trying to get revenge. So from there, they had a group of officers that would park near his trailer to keep an eye on him.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, Danny Freeman was very vocal about his thoughts on the Craig County Sheriff's Department, and he would speak to the media whenever he could. In his mind, the deputies were harassing him so that he and his family would move out of town. And his wife Kathy believed this as well.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
She was so overwhelmed by the constant police presence outside their home, she even started looking into buying a home in Louisiana. But eventually, they changed their minds. Welch was their home, and they weren't going to let the sheriff's department drive them out of town. But Kathy did write a letter to the department.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
In it, she said, Shane was shot at 4.30 p.m., but we were not notified until 10.15 p.m. by Sheriff Vaughn. If the law did everything right, it was still wrong. The whole community of Welch and surrounding area knows this was wrong and they also want something done. Everyone that knows Shane believes that he wouldn't have pulled a gun.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
David Hayes took drastic measures and he, along with the whole sheriff's department needs to be held accountable.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
the Craig County deputies have a bad attitude and they think they can get away with everything they've been defensive from the start harassed us and tried to intimidate us she went on to criticize other things they did like how they removed the flower and wooden cross that their family put up in Shane's memory so as you can see the year 1999 was a very stressful year for the Freeman family Danny was still working on filing that wrongful death lawsuit
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
but he needed about $5,000 to hire an attorney. And the clock was ticking, because if he was going to file it, he had to do it before January 8, 2000, which was right around the corner. But early enough, it's also around this time when Danny told his brother that if anything happened to him, the Craig County Sheriff's Department was responsible.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Apparently, Kathy Freeman had mentioned the same thing to one of her close friends, a nurse named DeAnna Dorsey.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story. Shout us out on X. Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much, helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
But let's get back to the story.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, for most of Ashley's birthday, the girls were out of the house. The Freeman trailer did not have running water. It did have a telephone and electricity, but the Freemans preferred to live a life that was kind of off the grid. Their main heating source was a wood-burning stove that was located in the living room. And for food, they mostly ate the food that they hunted.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
but Ashley's birthday was a special occasion. So that night for dinner, Kathy Freeman took them to get Pizza Hut. According to reports, after dinner, they went by Big Bill's Barbecue on North Wilson Street in Veneta. Then after that, they drove to the feed store to pick up some food for their livestock. Then they stopped by Kathy's mother's house to pick up water.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
from here ashley wanted to meet up with her boyfriend jeremy hurst he had gotten her a birthday present and he wanted to give it to her so kathy drove the girls to the local walmart once there jeremy gave ashley a heart-shaped pendant necklace embedded with a turquoise stone kathy also picked up a pre-ordered cake that she had purchased for ashley's birthday
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Around this time, Lorene Bible drove to Veneta, where she worked as a manager at the local McDonald's. But when she walked into work, she had no idea that her entire life was about to change. Around 7.30 that morning, her son, Bradley Bible, called her to let her know that there was a fire at the Freeman residence.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And immediately, she was so worried, she hung up the phone and tried to get in touch with Laura.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
the call went unanswered a few minutes later a deputy from craig county sheriff's department arrived at the mcdonald's and took laureen to a back room once inside he told her to sit down but laureen refused to sit what happened she asked frantically the deputy took a deep breath and that's when he told her that the freeman house had burned to the ground
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Welch, Oklahoma, a small rural community located in the northeastern part of the state. With a population of only a few hundred people, Welch has a classic small-town feel. People are close to their neighbors, they support the small businesses in town, and they look out for each other.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
and inside they found a body a body as in they only found one person now laureen knew the layout of the freeman trailer so she asked the deputy where the body had been located and that's when he told her that the body had been found in the front room and for a moment the reen felt a sense of relief the front room was danny and kathy's bedroom so hopefully that meant that laura and ashley were okay
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
There's one small school system, Welch Public Schools, that has a total of around 286 students in grades pre-K to 12. Needless to say, life in Welch is simple and quiet, and there's a strong sense of community. Now, about 15 minutes away from Welch is the town of Veneta. Although it's larger, with a population of a few thousand, the town of Veneta still has the small-town atmosphere.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
now as donna warren was leaving the scene laureen bible spotted her and she actually knew donna so she ran over to her hoping to get some answers could you tell who the victim was she asked donna admitted that she wasn't allowed to give her much information but that the body was of an older female likely kathy freeman and as you can imagine this confirmation was a bit of relief for laureen and jay who had been waiting around for hours but nothing here was adding up
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
As investigators continued to work the crime scene, they couldn't ignore the fact that three people who were supposed to have been in the house were unaccounted for. By 5 p.m., Kathy's body was finally removed from the home. But after going through the rubble, investigators were confident that Danny Freeman, Ashley Freeman, and Laura Bible weren't there. But where could they be?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Surprisingly, at around 6pm, an hour after Kathy's body was removed from the scene, investigators removed the crime scene tape and released the property and trailer back to the family. Keep in mind, this is just 12 hours after the fire was reported. Here, they have a murdered woman and three missing people and they just leave.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, by this point, investigators did have a theory on what happened here.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
since danny freeman was missing the initial belief was that he had murdered kathy set the trailer on fire to destroy evidence and then fled the scene now as for where ashley and laura were investigators had no idea maybe danny took the girls with him even danny's brother duane wondered if he was responsible danny was known to be quick-tempered and at times volatile but by this point everyone was still holding on to hope that the girls were alive
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Not finding them in the fire was a good sign, for lack of a better word. So that night, OSBI called Laura's parents to come down to the station to answer some questions. And they specifically wanted to know about Danny and Kathy's relationship. Was there any tension in the marriage? Any infidelity? Something that would give Danny motive to kill his wife?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
They even asked Jay about Danny's drug dealings.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
than they were now by this point news of the fire had spread quickly throughout the towns of welch and veneta and like every small town rumors quickly followed there were whispers that danny had abducted the girls and given them to a criminal organization one person even claimed to have seen danny in a white pickup truck with both ashley and laura in the back seat a neighbor came forward and told investigators that they had seen danny in a remote cabin outside of town
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Described as the second-oldest city in Oklahoma, tourists flock to the area for their roadside attractions, famous chicken fried steak, and easy access to Grand Lake. However, like every town in America, Welch and Vanita have their share of problems, and these two have had a history of methamphetamine abuse.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
the freeman family actually had a cabin that danny and his brother duane grew up in so this theory didn't seem too far-fetched danny's brother duane even offered to go up to the cabin to speak with danny but the police told him not to they told duane that it was too cold and dark and that they would approach the idea first thing in the morning which is crazy because if that was true why wait until the morning
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Around the same time that Danny's body was discovered, his brother Dwayne had also returned to the property. As he made his way up the half-mile gravel driveway, he saw Jay Bible frantically waving his arms in the air and pointing to an area inside the trailer. Dwayne parked his car and rushed over to Jay. Together, they walked to the bedroom, and he was shown the charred remains of his brother.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Over the years, the large and secluded prairie lands have allowed meth cookers and users to hide their drug operations. According to the National Drug Intelligence Center in 2002, methamphetamine production continues to be a significant problem in Oklahoma.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Duane immediately knew that the body belonged to Danny because there was a metallic shine in the skull area. Years before the fire, Danny had accidentally discharged a powder gun in his face and had to have certain sections replaced with metal plates, and his sinuses were reconstructed with mesh and metal wiring.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Duane also said that after the accident, Danny suffered from severe migraines and that this incident was around the time that Danny started to take on a violent temper.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Once the temperatures started rising this spring, Courtney and I both realized that we were back in the same worn-out rotation. We were wearing the same tanks, the same shorts, the same pants, the same everything. So, we both decided to switch things up, and we gave our daily uniforms an upgrade with quints.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make us feel more put together without even trying. Honestly, we've talked about this company before, but Quince makes incredibly comfortable, very well-fitted clothing that Courtney and I have come to love.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Even with the simple things like t-shirts, I love wearing my t-shirts that I've gotten from Quince every day, whether I'm sitting at home editing videos and podcasts or Courtney and I are running around town getting some things done. Through Quince, you can get 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30, luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. But the best part?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Everything with Quince is priced 50-80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So treat your closet to a little summer glow up with Quince.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Per the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs Control, methamphetamine laboratory seizures increased dramatically from 34 in 1995 to 1,193 in 2001. But despite these shocking statistics, the vast prairies of Craig County, Oklahoma holds a darker secret, the unsolved disappearance of Laura Bible and Ashley Freeman.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Go to Quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash America to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash America. And now let's get back to our story.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Soon enough, the OSBI was back at the Freeman's trailer, and like with Kathy Freeman, they determined that Danny had also been shot at close range in the face with a shotgun. Medical examiner Donna Warren would later confirm that Danny suffered a broken collarbone before the fatal shot, and that the manner of death was homicide.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Investigators theorized that Danny Freeman had attempted to stop whoever was responsible, and a fight ensued. They believed that Danny had been the primary target, but as for why... They didn't know. Perhaps it was drug-related. Maybe he'd crossed paths with the wrong person. But based on the scene, investigators theorized that after killing Danny, the perpetrator turned the shotgun on Kathy.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And due to her wound being in the back of her head, they believed she was trying to escape when she was shot and killed. Then, to hide any evidence, the suspect poured gasoline throughout the home and set it on fire. Investigators also believed that Kathy had been killed at around 5 a.m. and that the fire had been burning for nearly one hour before it was reported.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Slowly but surely, they were beginning to get an idea of what happened here. But there was still one question that remained. Where were Ashley and Laura?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
During the initial investigation, authorities also failed to search Laura's Corsica in the driveway, even though it was unlocked. Volunteers searched the vehicle, but unfortunately, nothing significant was found. By January 1st, 2000, Laureen and Jay Bible had organized a search of the 40-acre property. With the help of the local radio station, Maureen encouraged everyone to come out and help.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And their community really showed up. Nearly 500 volunteers arrived at the property, ready to help. And for days, they all searched on foot and horseback. People even brought canoes to search the creek behind the trailer. But unfortunately, there was no sign of Ashley or Laura. They also didn't find any clues that could help in the investigation.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
It seemed as if the two girls had simply vanished into thin air. But the community wasn't going to give up just yet. Volunteers started printing thousands of missing persons flyers to put up around town. But it's around this time when Kathy Freeman's mother, Celeste Chandler, introduced a controversial theory as to what may have happened.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
celesta believed that the craig county sheriff's department was responsible for the homicides everyone in town knew that there was tension between law enforcement and the freeman family after the shooting death of their son shane it also came out that in the days before the shooting danny was meeting with attorneys so that he could file that civil lawsuit against the sheriff's department so rumors began circulating that the craig county sheriff's department orchestrated the murders to silence the family
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And, considering how horribly the department handled the investigation, some people still believe this theory. Now, one would think that after mishandling the case so badly in the beginning that investigators would work hard to do better. But sadly, that wasn't the case.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
In the week after the fire, Maureen and Jay Bible were constantly at the sheriff's department doing their part to help in the investigation.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And something they were concerned about was getting Ashley and Laura's information entered into the National Crime Information Center, which is essentially a database where you can upload the information of missing persons and any law enforcement agency around the country can access it. And on January 6th, Laureen and Jay were told that Ashley and Laura's info had been uploaded to it.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
But two days later, on January 8th, they learned that the police never entered it into the system. For whatever reason, the disappearance of Ashley Freeman and Laura Bible was not a top priority for them, which only sparked more rumors around town that they were somehow involved.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
was also the fact that both danny and kathy had allegedly told people that if anything were to happen to them that the craig county sheriff's department was responsible and some people believed this so in an effort to clear their name the craig county sheriff's department actually ordered deputy david hayes to take a polygraph and again he's the one who shot and killed shane freeman
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
But Deputy Hayes passed the exam and was cleared of any wrongdoing. Deputy Hayes left the Craig County Sheriff's Department in the year 2000, and to this day, he's refused to speak about it. But for years, people were convinced that the police were in on this crime.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
On Friday, January 7, 2000, a memorial service was held for both Dani and Kathy Freeman. It was reported that over 400 people showed up to pay their respects. After the service, both were buried in the Timpson Chapel Cemetery in Estella, Oklahoma, next to their son, Shane. But during the entire service, everyone couldn't help but think about, what really happened here?
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
After they abandoned the theory that the girls were somehow involved, they focused on the intruder theory. who was now widely believed that someone had come into the Freeman home, shot and killed Danny and Kathy, kidnapped Ashley and Laura, and then burned the trailer down to cover their tracks.
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But with no strong leads in the case, Jay and Lorene Bible and a few of the Freeman relatives contacted the host of America's Most Wanted, John Walsh. A few weeks after their disappearance, the show ran a segment about the girls. And although the airing brought a lot of publicity to the case and hundreds of tips rolled in, all the leads ended up being dead ends.
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soon enough the case would begin to gain some momentum now like we mentioned there had been rumors around town that danny freeman was not only involved in the marijuana business but that he also dabbled in the distribution of methamphetamine several neighbors theorized that it could have been a meth deal gone wrong one neighbor a man named wade sherrick admitted that danny's involvement with drugs was well known
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wade witnessed several cars in the freeman driveway at all hours of the night and it was pretty obvious that they were there to buy drugs because these people never stayed long they were always in and out pretty quickly but because of this some people began to wonder if danny had somehow gotten involved with the cartel after hearing this laureen bible took matters into her own hands she even met up with a suspected member of the cartel and confronted them
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It didn't end up going anywhere, but she was willing to do whatever it took to try and find her daughter, even if that meant putting herself in harm's way.
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According to their report, Ricky had been in and out of the Eastern State Hospital for the insane. But in January 2000, the hospital decided to downsize until they eventually closed their doors entirely. Apparently, Ricky was distraught with his news and he even stopped taking his medication. Then, in a psychotic break, he murdered Deanna.
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Now, we weren't able to figure out why he had specifically asked for Deanna before he shot and killed her, or how he even knew her name in the first place. But the Freeman family was convinced that he had been set up by the Craig County Sheriff's Department, especially because Deanna had done that interview with that TV show shortly before. But of course, there was no evidence of this.
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And once again, investigators were no closer to solving the case of Laura and Ashley.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events,
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
pedophile rings, government corruption, ritual sacrifice, no topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on The Conspiracy Files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real.
Murder In America
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It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories. Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen.
Murder In America
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It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.
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That same year, Lorene Bible had received a tip from a truck driver who said that he knew a guy who admitted to abducting Laura and Ashley. The man that allegedly confessed to the kidnapping was named Paul Glover, and he was a known meth cook in Ottawa County.
Murder In America
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But through the grapevine, word got around that Paul Glover had taken the girls, drugged them, sexually assaulted them, took Polaroid photos of the abuse, and then passed them on to the next group of junkies. So once again, investigators obtained a search warrant of the property. And this time around, Lorene and J. Bible were hopeful.
Murder In America
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After all these leads that led nowhere, they were hoping that this one would give them answers. They even waited on the outskirts of the property while investigators searched it. But once again, they were left disappointed. The search did not turn up any evidence, and Paul Glover was cleared as a suspect.
Murder In America
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What do I remember about December 30th? I want to say this. I remember where two bodies are. Well, I believe I could take you to two bodies. I also want to remember a fire.
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years later in 2004 another murderer named jeremy brian jones confessed to the murders now he was in prison after he murdered a woman named lisa nichols on september 17 2004 jeremy broke into lisa's home violently raped her and shot her three times in the head jeremy left lisa's body inside of the bathtub and then doused her in the bathroom in gasoline lit a match and walked away
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which was eerily similar to what happened with the Freeman family trailer. So when Jeremy confessed to the killings, investigators believed he could potentially have been telling the truth. Jeremy stated that he targeted Danny Freeman that night because he owed his friend drug money. Then after murdering Danny and Kathy,
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had no idea what to do with ashley and laura so he drove them to galena kansas shot them and dumped their bodies into an abandoned mine shaft so in june of 2005 the osbi craig county sheriff's department and the kansas bureau of investigation traveled to galena kansas to search the abandoned mines where jeremy said he had dumped the bodies ultimately ashley freeman and laura bible were not found
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nor was there any evidence to indicate that they had been dumped there. And of course, shortly after this, Jeremy Jones recanted his confession. He admitted that the only reason he confessed was because he received special treatment in jail due to his celebrity status. The food was better and he was allowed more phone calls. So once again, the Freeman Bible case hit a dead end.
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Today, Jeremy sits on death row at the Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore, Alabama.
Murder In America
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By the end of 2016, there were some changes being made at the Craig County Sheriff's Department. The current sheriff, Jimmy Souter, had lost his bid for re-election, and in 2017, Sheriff Heath Winfrey was elected to take his place. And when he took his position, he made a huge announcement. Sheriff Winfrey told the public that he had found a box at the Craig County Sheriff's Department
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and inside were several documents regarding the freeman bible case important documents that had been misplaced and forgotten apparently the previous administration at the craig county sheriff's department was supposed to turn over those documents to the osbi but they never did sheriff winfrey said that the items were located in a black milk crate that had essentially been collecting dust
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as it turned out the answers to this case had been sitting there for nearly 18 years inside the documents were dozens of potential witnesses connected to the freeman bible case who all pointed the finger at three men phil welch david pennington and ronnie busick now as a little background on phil welch pretty much anyone that knew the guy used one word to describe him
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evil he was well known for beating his girlfriends and children with things like cattle prods and bull whips at some point his wife didn't make his food the way he liked it so he took a hammer to her fingers and there were accusations that he sexually abused his children in the book titled hell in the heartland
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One of Phil's family members talked about how Phil got his kids to beat up a mentally disabled neighbor of theirs. And if his children refused, they themselves were beaten. His family member stated, he thought it was the funniest thing in the world. Now, Phil was also a meth addict. And when he got high, he would stay up for days on end.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
During that time, he also had religious experiences where he would preach the gospel throughout his day-long benders. And Phil's two right-hand men were Ronnie Busick and David Pennington. Now, all of these men were horrible people with lengthy criminal histories, but Phil was definitely the ringleader. Whatever he said, they did.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
And like the other two men, Ronnie Busick was a horrible human being. His own family said that he was known to wear a belt buckle that showed a woman with her legs spread and a large penis aimed directly at her. On the top it read, Ronnie was known to have sex with a lot of women, and at one point he said, If they don't want to give it up, then by God, I fucking take it.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, by 2018, he was actually in jail in Wichita for a parole violation. But soon enough, investigators from Oklahoma were showing up to place him under arrest for his part in the Freeman Bible murders.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
These young ladies' final days were certainly horrific, and today's announcement no doubt comes as little solace to their grief.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Ashley Renee Freeman was born on December 29, 1983, to Danny and Kathy Freeman. And because the town of Veneto was so small, it made sense that the girls would cross paths. In fact, the girls' kindergarten teacher, Kathy Wood, had actually grown up with Laura's father, Jay, and Ashley's mother, Kathy Freeman. Kathy stated, quote, I grew up in Blue Jackets, so I knew both families quite well.
Murder In America
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Now, investigators did try and find the Polaroid pictures that were reportedly in Phil Welch's possession, the ones that showed Laura and Ashley in their final days. But by 2018, they were missing. The men likely destroyed them. But with the many witness accounts, they finally had enough evidence to make an arrest.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
As Ronnie Busick was being transferred to Oklahoma, family members of Laura and Ashley stood outside and were even able to speak with him.
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If he couldn't hear that, Ronnie said, I wish I could. He would also later say that he had a hard time remembering because of all the drug use he had done in the past. He also said that in 1978, he had been shot in the head, which affected his memory. But eventually, while in prison, he would tell investigators exactly what happened on December 30th, 1999. So, let's go back to that horrific night.
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You know everyone's family in a small area like this. I rode the school bus with Ashley's mom and Laura's dad, Jay, and all his brothers and sisters. Laura's family goes to my church, Church of God in Bonita. Laura's uncle lives across the street from us, so she would come over and visit when she was there to see her aunt and uncle.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Another student in the small kindergarten class, Sheena Reese, described Laura as very outgoing. She remembered her as the small girl with blonde ringlets who was extremely smart and an all-around social butterfly. As for Ashley Freeman, Sheena said that she was always quiet, but sweet.
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Disturbingly, in the weeks, months, and years after the murders, all three men bragged about what they did that night. According to one witness, Phil even took one of the girls' missing persons flyers and proudly hung it up in his trailer. David Pennington's former girlfriend told investigators that David physically abused her and threatened her life.
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He liked to remind her that he had killed the Freemans during a bad drug deal, and if she stepped out of line, he would kill her too. The witness, referred to as Ali in the affidavit, admitted that she lived with David Pennington after the murders and that he had threatened to kill her if she ever revealed what she knew to the police.
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Sadly, there were many witnesses who knew that these three men were responsible, and they were too afraid to come forward themselves, but they had told other people about what they knew. And I guess, through the grapevine, the witnesses' names had been given to the Craig County Sheriff's Department, but they were never looked into.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
The answers to this case had been sitting in a folder for 18 years. And it wasn't until 2017 when investigators finally interviewed the witnesses and learned the truth.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
After Ronnie Busick's arrest, District Attorney Matt Ballard held a press conference where he stated, For 18 years, the community in Craig County and many members of the media have followed the case of the deaths of Kathy and Danny Freeman, the mysterious disappearance of their 16-year-old daughter Ashley Freeman and Ashley's friend, 16-year-old Laura Bible, and the arson of the Freeman family home.
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Yesterday, there was an arrest in the case. OSBI investigator Tammy Ferrari and my SVU investigator Gary Stansell, through incredible police work, identified three perpetrators. Now, when the details of Ashley and Laura's final moments were revealed, the girls' families were horrified. It was even more heartbreaking to know that after the fire, the girls had been alive just 25 miles away.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Their families couldn't help but think that if the Craig County Sheriff's Department and OSBI had handled the case better in the early days of the investigation, they may have had a better outcome. But as we know, we can't turn back time. And although their families were relieved to finally have some answers, They weren't going to be satisfied until the bodies of Ashley and Laura were located.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
During the press conference, the Bible stood up and made their own statement. Lorene, her voice filled with emotion, stated, It's been 18 years, 3 months, and 26 days to this point. We're not finished. I will not stop until we bring the girls home.
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And as if this case couldn't get any more heartbreaking, in 2023, Ronnie Busick was released from prison early due to good behavior.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, as you can imagine, the community was outraged when they learned that Ronnie Busick got released from prison after serving only two and a half years. So in February 2024, Oklahoma Representative Steve Bashmore introduced House Bill 2946 that was named Laura and Ashley's Law.
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The bill would require anyone charged with accessory to murder in the first or second degree to serve 85% of their prison sentence before being eligible for release.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Steve Bashmore stated, Family members of the young women killed in this case came to me imploring my help when they realized the person guilty of accessory to murder was to be released after serving so little time in prison for this horrific crime. They're also concerned that he's now free to move about their community in close proximity to their family.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
I'm hoping that no other family going forward will have to go through such a shock after suffering such a devastating loss. But sadly, the bill wasn't passed. And even though Ronnie was cooperative in trying to help find the bodies, he never held up his end of the deal. Ashley and Laura have never been located. And even so, he was still released early.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Laura and Ashley's law finally passed the House Civil Judiciary Committee. However, this is only the first step to getting it implemented.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
If you have any information on the whereabouts of Ashley and Laura, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation urges you to call their tip line at 1-800-522-8017 or email tips at osbi.ok.gov. Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. Courtney and I are both so glad to have each and every one of you there with us listening every single week.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Now, as a little background on Ashley, she was a big outdoors girl who loved to hunt and fish. She shot her first deer when she was 12 years old from 100 yards away, and she always joined her father when he went deer hunting. And their family loved to find different recipes to cook their deer meat with. But even more so than hunting, Ashley was very good at fishing.
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This story is so heartbreaking. Our hearts just go out to the family members involved in this whole thing. It's always so infuriating to hear these stories, to research these stories, to read and write about these stories.
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where you just see such systemic failure from authorities especially in a case like this where it seems like they just really didn't care about getting this crime solved and you know you hate to hypothesize but in so many of these cases if action would have been taken earlier things would have come to a much quicker ending.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
Also, don't forget to leave us a five-star review on Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen to this show. Follow us on Instagram at murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. And yeah, Thank you all for listening. Courtney and I appreciate each and every one of you so much, and I'll catch you all on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
It was something that she and her grandfather bonded over ever since she was a little girl.
Murder In America
EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
now her grandpa glenn lived in new orleans but every summer she would fly out and spend months with him on his 45-foot commercial fishing boat that he took out into the gulf of mexico ashley was a natural it didn't matter how hot it was outside she never complained glenn would later say she was the best little gal that ever got around she was dandy
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In the morning I'd say, Ashley, what do you want to do today? And she'd say, I don't know, Papa, what do you want to do? I'd say, work on the boat. And she'd say, okay, let's go work on the boat. She'd get blue paint in that reddish blonde hair of hers, but she didn't mind a bit. The next day, same thing, but I'd say fishing. And she'd say, okay, let's go fishing.
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During one outing, Glenn admitted that it was too hot for him to fish, so he suggested that they call it a day. But Ashley wasn't ready to quit. She kept saying, let me just catch one more. Now, when Ashley wasn't catching fish in the marsh, she liked to catch alligators that she would hook and release. And Glenn warned her that even the smallest of alligators could bite her fingers off.
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But Ashley wasn't scared. And when she hooked one, she would jump up and down in excitement. Glenn admitted she wasn't afraid of nothing. She was a good girl.
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EP. 196: OKLAHOMA - The Murders Of Lauria Bible & Ashley Freeman: A Disturbing Mystery In The Heartland
now before we get into the events of december 29th it's important to talk about ashley freeman's family history in the years before 1999 they had gone through a lot ashley's father danny had had a work-related injury which made it difficult for him to hold down a job so the family had to rely on kathy's salary she worked at doctor's optical supply company but sadly
Murder In America
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It didn't pay very well, so they were always struggling financially. To make some money on the side, Danny started growing high-grade marijuana on the back end of his 40-acre property. Now, at first, he started growing it for personal use, but eventually word got around and he decided to make a little business out of it.
Murder In America
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Following this, Danny Freeman was charged with injuring a minor, which is a felony, but he continued to maintain his innocence. He argued that he had simply punished his child as he saw fit and that the entire ordeal had been blown out of proportion. Apparently, Shane had misbehaved and Danny had taken away his telephone privileges.
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But after taking his phone away, Shane had rewired the phone so that he could still use it in his bedroom. And when Danny found this out, he used that very cord to beat his son. Danny stood by his actions that day. He agreed that he did give his son a good beating, but in his mind, it was necessary. However, the Oklahoma Department of Human Services didn't agree.
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EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Meanwhile, Naomi's mother frantically searched for information on her daughter's whereabouts. It wouldn't be until February of 1993, when the dental records were entered into the National Crime Information Center database, that investigators were able to identify the remains. They belonged to Naomi Lee Kidder. Now, sadly, Naomi's murder is still unsolved.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
But like we mentioned, her name was found written in Larry Hall's notebook in 1994, just one year after her body had been identified. He never confessed to her murder, but some people out there believe that he is responsible and that Naomi was his first victim.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
If Larry was responsible for the deaths of Naomi Kidder and Lolly Chavez, then that means he spent a lot of time prowling. Like we mentioned, he would usually travel around for these car shows, so he had all of these towns to drive through. New areas, new women to stalk, and most importantly, because he was from out of town, no one would ever suspect him.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
But at this time in Larry's life, he was very unhappy. He was still living with his parents in their one-bedroom home, having to sleep in their living room. And he was still close to his brother Gary, but he had moved out and had his own life. So anytime Larry had the opportunity to get away for a weekend, he would take it. And it's around this time when he discovered Civil War reenactments.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
He first learned about them after hearing about them on a television program. At these reenactments, men would travel to the battlefields and reenact famous battles from the Civil War. Now, like we mentioned before, throughout his entire life, Larry had always loved history, so he decided to go to one himself.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
In December of 1986, Larry made the three-hour drive to Champaign, Illinois, where they were doing one of these reenactments, which also happened to be the exact same time and place where 25-year-old Kimberly Ann Thompson went missing. It was December 1st of that year, and Kimberly's father had just dropped her off near her boyfriend's house.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
However, it seemed as though Kimberly never made it inside, because right after her father drove away that day, no one would ever see or hear from her again. Now, interestingly, a few months before her disappearance, she had actually testified against two men in a drug trafficking case, and her testimony landed the men in prison for seven years.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
So there were people out there who weren't too happy with her. The police even offered her protection and money for her to relocate, but she refused, stating she wasn't ready to leave the area.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Kimberly had also come into some money, roughly $25,000 to $35,000 after she filed a workplace injury lawsuit, but unfortunately, she never arrived to collect the cash, leading everybody to believe she was dead. Now, like we mentioned, her name is often associated with Larry Hall because he was in the area at the time of her disappearance.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
but he's never officially been linked to her case, and sadly, her body has never been found, so her case is still unsolved.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Hey everybody, Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love Murder in America, you love our show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program.
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EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, Post one of our shows on your Facebook and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home. Seriously, thank y'all.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
But let's get back to the story. Now, at this point, Larry loved these Civil War reenactments so much, he decided that he wanted to become a part of them. So, in 1988, he decided to join a group of men who portrayed the 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment, also known as the Union's Iron Brigade. For Larry, he couldn't think of anything more perfect for him.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Not only would he get to do something he loved, but he would also get to escape his home life while he was on the road. So, for months, he and his group traveled around the Midwest and participated in reenactments. And his brother Gary actually joined him. The twins had always had very similar interests while growing up, and history was one of them.
Murder In America
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it was something they did together and they loved it on the weekends larry gary and the rest of the iron brigade would camp out near the battlegrounds and when the crowds would show up to watch they would run out into the fields wearing full civil war attire including hardy hats wool coats and dark blue pants and over the weekend they would shoot their muskets and rifles march alongside each other and pretend to kill confederate soldiers it was the perfect hobby for larry hall
Murder In America
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He got to spend time with his brother, doing what he loved.
Murder In America
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Larry Hall's next suspected murder took place on September 2, 1988. 19-year-old Paulette Webster had disappeared near Chester, Illinois. She had just left her friend's house after an evening of bowling and was never seen again. At first, investigators believed that Paulette left the area on her own accord. However, she took no personal belongings with her.
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Her clothes, purse, and driver's license were all found in her bedroom. And sadly, Paulette was never seen again. Now, Larry Hall would later say that he couldn't remember if he was responsible for her murder, but said, quote, If I did it, I would have put her in a river or in a field, end quote.
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This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
Murder In America
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On September 20th, 1988, 16 year old Cynthia Louise Carmack disappeared near the Fort Hamilton Historic Site in Hamilton, Ohio. The brown-haired, blue-eyed teenager was last seen leaving a shopping center in the 1000 block of Parcomo Avenue. Unfortunately, she was never seen again, and her case remains unsolved.
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On December 16, 1988, an unidentified white female, only known as Jane Doe, was discovered on the east side of the northbound lane of Interstate 59, only five miles from the Georgia-Alabama state line. Investigators theorized that the female was 20 to 25 years old. She had brown hair and blue eyes. She had been sexually mutilated and strangled to death.
Murder In America
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The body was discovered close to Civil War battle sites, including Dalton, Chickamauga, and Adairsville. Today, her remains have never been identified, and the case still remains unsolved.
Murder In America
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On June 26th, 1989, 26-year-old Lynn Ann Thompson's abandoned car was found in a Kmart parking lot in Terre Haute, Indiana. She was never seen or heard from again, and her case remains unsolved. The area of her disappearance was south of two reenactment sites that Larry frequented. Billy Creek Village, and Turkey Run State Park.
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On October 1, 1989, 28-year-old Janet Rose Dolge disappeared from her residence at the 500 block of Portage-Easterly Road in Cortland, Ohio. She was on her way to work at a local restaurant where she was a hostess, dressed in her work shirt and dress pants. Unfortunately, Janet was never seen again, and her case remains unsolved.
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On July 20, 1990, an unidentified white female was found in a bean field in Jarvis Township, Illinois. The woman was around 25 years old and had shoulder-length auburn hair. She had several stab wounds to her neck and torso, and she had been sexually mutilated. The killer had removed her reproductive organs. Unfortunately, the woman has never been identified and is known only today as Jane Doe.
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Her case remains unsolved. Investigators later looked into Larry Hall as being their killer, but without sufficient evidence, they couldn't prove it. Once the temperatures started rising this spring, Courtney and I both realized that we were back in the same worn-out rotation. We were wearing the same tanks, the same shorts, the same pants, the same everything.
Murder In America
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So, we both decided to switch things up, and we gave our daily uniforms an upgrade with quints. Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make us feel more put together without even trying. Honestly, we've talked about this company before, but Quince makes incredibly comfortable, very well-fitted clothing that Courtney and I have come to love.
Murder In America
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Even with the simple things like t-shirts, I love wearing my t-shirts that I've gotten from Quince every day, whether I'm sitting at home editing videos and podcasts, or Courtney and I are running around town getting some things done. Through Quince, you can get 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30, luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. But the best part?
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Everything with Quince is priced 50-80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So treat your closet to a little summer glow up with Quince.
Murder In America
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Go to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash America to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash America. And now let's get back to our story.
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Nestled in the United States' Midwest is a town called Wabash, Indiana. a small town with a small town feel and it has a lot of history in fact wabash prides itself on being the first electrically lighted city in the world on march 31st 1880 four 3 000 candle power brush lamps were suspended from the courthouse and the spectacle drew over 10 000 people to witness it
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A few weeks after Michelle's murder, on July 25th, 1991, 37-year-old Georgia Ann Shreve disappeared after last being seen at a truck stop in Clermont, on the west side of Indianapolis. On August 5th, her body was discovered in a ditch next to the westbound ramp of Interstate 74 at Indiana State Route 25.
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In Larry's 1994 confession, he admitted that he had picked up a woman in Clermont, something he vividly remembered because the woman didn't want to go with him. He forced the woman into the car, although he could not remember her name. And as of today, the case remains unsolved. In March of 1992, the body of a Jane Doe was located in Fulton County, Georgia.
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Then a few months later on June 3rd, 1992, another Jane Doe was discovered in Berks County, Pennsylvania. Larry Hall is suspected in both Jane Doe murders. But 1992 was another busy year for Larry and his Civil War reenactments. By that point, he was so invested in the role, he had even grown his sideburns out so that he would look more like the soldiers at the time.
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That summer, he and his brother had been cast as extras in another Civil War movie called Gettysburg. Now, Larry was never seen in the film, but interestingly, his brother was. If you were to watch the movie, you'd actually see Gary Hall as he ran down a hill in one of the scenes. He'd later tell the Chronicle Tribune for Marion, Indiana, quote, "...it was actually my first reenactment combat.
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Now, people have since debated whether or not this claim is accurate since, technically, only the courthouse was lit, not the whole town. However, to this day, the people of the city stand proudly by this accomplishment. But if you were to walk down the streets of the historic downtown today, you'd see a line of old brick and limestone buildings that are home to over 100 small businesses.
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I learned a lot, but it was also dangerous. They had a stuntman in front of me during one scene. He was blown six feet into the air by an explosion. It was planned, but even that seemed dangerous."
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After her disappearance, investigators theorized that perhaps Lori had run off with someone she knew, but her loved ones couldn't stop thinking about that cup of soda in her car and the fact that she left her overnight bag inside her vehicle. Lori didn't run away. Someone had heard her. But for months, Lori remained missing.
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There are restaurants, boutiques, and every week they have a farmers market. The population of Wabash is around 11,000, and many of the people who were born and raised here grew up to be good, upstanding citizens. After all, people from the Midwest have a reputation of being overly friendly and nice. But on December 11, 1962, a little boy would be born.
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Following her disappearance, hundreds of volunteers searched alongside investigators. Thousands of missing persons flyers were distributed throughout surrounding areas. Civil Air Patrol helicopters looked for clues by air, but there was absolutely nothing to be found. Unfortunately, Lori was never seen again, and her case remains unsolved to this day.
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In Larry's 1994 confession, he admitted he had traveled to Wisconsin several days before Lori's disappearance for a Civil War reenactment at Gringan Mansion in Kaukauna. Shockingly, her name was also mentioned in his diary that was discovered in his van after he was arrested. Larry ultimately confessed to her murder in November of 2010, but to this day, she's never been found.
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Seen many nice girls at Marsh's. Lots of walkers at 715. Walking to apartments on Nebraska in 4443. Must be housing for the university. Seen some prospects. Look at maps. Get the van ready.
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Tricia was a freshman at Indiana Wesleyan University studying psychology, and everyone who knew her described her as extremely smart, energetic, athletic, and determined. She had grown up in Olmstead Falls, Ohio, in a happy home. Her father, Gary, owned a woodworking business, and her mother, Donna, cleaned homes.
Murder In America
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The Reitlers were devoted to their faith and attended Golden Harvest Church in Columbia Station, Ohio. Growing up, Trisha was active in the youth group and sang in the church choir. She was extremely close with her parents and three younger siblings. When looking for colleges, Trisha wanted a religious-affiliated school and agreed upon Indiana Wesleyan when her application was accepted.
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His name was Larry DeWayne Hall, and he would grow up to embody the very antithesis of Midwestern values.
Murder In America
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By all accounts, Trisha excelled in college. She maintained good grades, earning her a spot on the Dean's List, and worked part-time at the University Food Center on campus. She knew she wanted to focus her attention on helping people and decided to major in psychology. She was petite, vibrant, and loved poetry, journaling, and helping others.
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Replace rear carpet and van. Cut out stained carpet. Vacuum van thoroughly. Spray down chemicals. Wipe with Armor All. Burn paint and tarps. Buy new hacksaw blades. Clean all tools with denatured alcohol. Take tires off and clean mud from under fenders.
Murder In America
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When the twins were born, it wasn't the happiest time for their family. Larry and Gary's mom, Bernice, had had a difficult pregnancy and their father, Robert, was not financially ready to feed two extra mouths. Now at the time, Robert Hall was working as a gravedigger at Falls Cemetery in Wabash, and the work wasn't easy. He would dig the graves by hand, using picks and shovels.
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Campus security guard Dale Beck received the phone call, and as he heard the description, the Dodge van actually drove right past him. Now, Dale was a veteran officer with the Grant County Sheriff's Department, and he decided to pull the van over himself. The driver handed his license over, and Dale saw the name, Larry Hall.
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Now, when asked if Larry was following these girls, he made up an elaborate story about trying to locate a friend's house. He even gave Dale the address of the home. And to Dale, his story sounded truthful. This wasn't a guy trying to abduct these women. He simply needed directions. So, from here, Larry was allowed to leave. Which is unfortunate.
Murder In America
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Because little did they know, their killer had been right in front of them. And Larry Hall would go on to kill again months later.
Murder In America
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It was reported that it would take him 18 hours to dig one single grave, but Robert was good at what he did. He was a hard worker and did his best to maintain the cemetery. The only problem was it didn't pay very well. So when Robert, who was already in his 40s, found out that his wife, Bernice, was pregnant with twins, he wasn't very excited about the extra expenses that were to come.
Murder In America
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And believe it or not, investigators even suggested that maybe Jessica ran away, which is wild considering that her bike was found in the middle of the road. But luckily, they soon dropped that theory. Because as it turned out, Jessica wasn't the only young girl who had gone missing around that time. In fact, many young girls in Illinois and Indiana had been vanishing.
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So that night, investigators and volunteers began their searches. They combed the cornfields, abandoned buildings, barns, ponds, marshes, rivers, lakes, and wooded areas. But there was no sign of Jessica, and her family was worried sick.
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On November 18th, her body was laid to rest at Georgetown Cemetery, and as the 100-car procession made their way to say their final goodbyes, investigators watched intently. Although Jessica had been found, her killer had not. Whoever was responsible was still on the streets, but soon enough, someone would give the police their first lead.
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According to a man named Monty Cox, he had been driving through Perrysville, Indiana on the night that Jessica Roach disappeared. He had just left his shift. It was around 1130 p.m. and on his way home, he spotted something unusual. It was a man walking out of the cornfields, the very cornfields where Jessica's body had been found. Now, at the time, he thought it was strange.
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but he just figured that the man had pulled over to use the restroom. However, now, knowing that a young girl's body had been dumped there, he decided to inform the police. And luckily, he even had a description of the man. He said he had dark hair and an odd beard, much like that of Larry Hall. Even further, the man was seen walking towards a dark van.
Murder In America
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Now, this definitely was a good lead, but without a name, they still had a lot of work to do. Finding a dark-haired man with an odd beard would be like finding a needle in a haystack. and little did they know, their suspect would soon be back in Indiana. On November 19th, Larry found himself in the city of Rochester for a Civil War reenactment.
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Tourists from all over came to watch him, and no one suspected a thing.
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If you love Murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories and the unknown, then I have a new show for you. It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Brown, from Murder in America and The Paranormal Files. On The Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events,
Murder In America
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pedophile rings government corruption rituals sacrifice no topic is untouched on this show everything that we talk about on the conspiracy files is backed up with fact i release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real it's a completely different type of show
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than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories. Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts, telling you the story, walking you through the story just as detailed as we do with Murder in America, and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files.
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The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now, let's get back to our story. Now, that very same day after Larry failed to abduct Amy, he drove back to Georgetown, Illinois, the same town where he had abducted Jessica Roach. He had luck finding a girl there, so why not try again?
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And this time, he spotted two young girls riding their bikes. It was 13-year-old Abby Mariage and 15-year-old Kaylin Hoskins. Now, the girls were riding near their junior high when they suddenly noticed a dark van following close behind. And just like he did with Amy, he drove past them several times. The girls watched in horror as Larry parked up ahead of them and just sat staring, watching them.
Murder In America
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Fearing that something wasn't right, the girls decided to go back to Kaylin's house and quickly cut through a back alley down Dyke Street. When they arrived, they told Kaylin's grandmother what had happened and she called the police. And luckily, the girls were able to provide a description. Black bushy hair and a thick beard. Abby also called her parents and they arrived to pick her up.
Murder In America
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But Abby's father, Randy, wanted to find this man. So, with Abby in the car, he started driving around. And soon enough, they saw it. It was at a gas station. But it seems as though Larry knew someone was on his trail, because it's here where he quickly sped out of the parking lot.
Murder In America
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With Randy hot in pursuit, Larry Hall began speeding down the road, zigzagging through traffic at nearly 80 miles per hour. He was clearly trying to get away, but Randy kept up. At a traffic light, Randy pulled up behind the van and jotted down the license plate, 85B3752. And with that, they immediately went to the police.
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One of the boys' best friends, Ross Davis, would tell author James Keen in his novel, In with the Devil, quote, "...the house was a big place, but it was a dump. It was like a path to walk through. Stuff was piled everywhere. Mrs. Hall was always having a rummage sale, and we used to joke that they lived inside a rummage sale. All the years I knew the family, I never once saw her do any cleaning.
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very day after he was released on may 31st 1994 larry decided to return to his hometown of wabash indiana but as he was driving through it he would come across a group of young girls in the group were ashley davis tisha moore melissa selick and danielle marshall the girls had been taking a stroll through wabash city park when they noticed an odd brown van following them
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Larry quickly pulled up beside them and asked if they needed a ride. But these girls must have known that he was dangerous, because they all started running as fast as they possibly could. Luckily, Ashley's house was nearby. Author Christopher Holly Martin interviewed Tisha in 2009, and she told him the following.
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After seeing the creepy van, Ashley's mother called the police and the girls were able to provide a description of himself and the vehicle. But Melissa's father, John Selick, decided to hunt for the van himself. As it turned out, his daughter had actually crossed paths with Larry Hall before. He had tried to pick Melissa up in that same creepy van in the past.
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So, John started driving around and eventually he found him. But instead of confronting Larry, he simply wrote down the license plate number 85B3752. If this man was going to follow little girls around, then John was going to make sure that the police knew about it. So, later that afternoon, the Wabash Police Department showed up at Larry's door. And once again, he was taken in for questioning.
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They would eat out every day because she was too lazy to cook. That's why they never saved a penny." She was just a big fat lady who sat around the house all day and did nothing but yell and stir up a lot of trouble."
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On October 9th, 1994, 20-year-old Carrie Ann Smith's body was found floating down the Tippecanoe River in Rochester, Indiana. Carrie lived at 3325 South Main Street in South Bend and was last seen at that location. Carrie was a known sex worker. An autopsy determined that she had been raped, tortured, sexually mutilated, and then strangled. Investigators had no idea where she had been murdered.
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There was no evidence on the bridge or on the riverbanks. After Larry Hall's arrest, police discovered a note in his van with the word, Menominee. Apparently, the Menominee public access was only one mile upstream from where Carrie's body was discovered. Today, investigators believe that Larry paid Carrie for sex to get her into his van.
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I recall I was in Illinois for a Revolutionary War reenactment. This was in the fall of 1993. I was in Forest Glen Park, County Park. I stayed that night. I usually sleep in my van. The next day I headed back home to Wabash, Indiana. I was on the road. There was a girl walking a bike. I stopped and talked to her. I had to grab her because she wouldn't have gotten in by herself.
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I usually keep starting fluid in rags. I might have used these on her, but I don't think I used this on her. I tied her up, but I can't remember with what. I remember taking her pants off. I took my pants off and had sex with her. I can't remember what kind. I laid her up against a tree and put a belt around her neck and she stopped breathing. I was close to a bridge and a river.
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This is where I had her. There was a road through a cornfield. She was wrapped in tarp while in the van. I took the tarp off and left her in the cornfield. I just do things that I'm not in control. I was shown a picture of Jessica Roach and this picture looks a little like the girl I remember. I have nightmares where I remember these murders.
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I write things about the girls and I don't remember when I wrote them. I would find these in the van.
Murder In America
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In late March 93, I was in Marion, Indiana several times. I don't remember where in Marion. It was near some homes and gas station. There was a small shopping center. I had a van. There was possibly a struggle with her to get in the van. I do remember she tried to run away. I ran towards her, ran into her, and we fell to the ground. I told her I was not going to hurt her and to calm down.
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She would not calm down and tried to get away. I had a knife to scare her. I made her sit on the ground and take her clothes off. It was dark. There was a dark colored dog there. When taking her clothes off, she tried to run again. I shoved her down and told her I didn't want to hurt her. She took everything but underclothes off. I remember putting her on a tarp or canvas. I think she was alive.
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She just laid there. I didn't have sex with her there. I put her in the van and put a bag of trash on her. I drove a couple of hours. I first drove southwest and then just kept driving and turning. I got lost. I don't remember taking her out of the van, but I recall being on a canvas in the woods having sex. I set her up against a tree and put a belt around her neck. I left her.
Murder In America
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Possibly left her near a creek and a concrete bridge. I was shown a picture of Trisha Reitler and I thought the Xerox photo on the flyer looked like her.
Murder In America
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All the girls looked alike. I can't remember all of them. I went to Anderson, Indiana, and exactly the same thing happened. This was in 1992. I got a girl in Anderson. I can't remember details now. I picked up several girls in other areas, but I can't remember which ones I hurt. I went to a car show in Indianapolis, July or probably August 1994. I picked up a girl.
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I can't remember the recent girls I picked up. This girl was in Indianapolis and was a brunette. It was Claremont. I remember this girl didn't want to go with me and I had to force her. I've gone to Wisconsin to reenactments there. Last time was a year or so before.
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In the meantime, he was finally arrested and sent to the Grant County Jail in Marion, Indiana, while he waited for extradition to Illinois. But before that, Larry Hall recanted his confession. He said that what he told investigators that day was simply what he remembered from those dark dreams he would have. They weren't actual memories, he said.
Murder In America
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This was definitely considered a loss for investigators. Not only did they not find any evidence, but Larry Hall had recanted his confession. He said he had planted all that stuff in his van for attention.
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But even so, they did have enough to place him under arrest for his part in the abduction of Jessica Roach. And on December 21st, 1994, Larry Hall was charged with one count of kidnapping for the purposes of sexual gratification. And six months later, on June 6th, 1995, Larry was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
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Now, while in jail, the bodies of four Jane Does were found around the Midwest. And based on their levels of decomposition, investigators theorize that they were all murdered before Larry Hall had been arrested. And he's actually a suspect in all four of those cases. But today, they remain unsolved.
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On December 2nd, 1997, Larry stood before Judge Joe B. McDade in Peoria, Illinois. Behind the defense table, Larry stood and made a statement to the court. He said, quote,
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I just wanted to say that all 35 years of my life, I've known the full value of every human life, every animal life on this earth, and that I've never in any way harmed Jessica Roach or any other poor, helpless young girl, and that I hate and despise people who do harm to people that can't defend themselves. And I have never in my life actually hurt anyone.
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And I pray to God someday you'll know that that's true and won't just have to accept my word for it. I pray to God that the word will come out eventually, that I had nothing to do with this crime, and that the confession, as they call it, from start to finish is totally fictitious and never happened. I did not kidnap Jessica Roach off her new bicycle. I'm not that kind of person.
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And God help me, I pray that I'll be able to prove it someday." In turn, U.S. Attorney Lawrence Beaumont read a poem that Jessica Roach's family had written after her murder. Quote, "...we lost a great deal, now it's sorrow we feel. We tried to find you when you were lost." If I could change what happened, I would at any cost. At least you now feel no pain. I one day will see you alive again.
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But if only good things I keep stressing, I will try to be God-impressing. I hope to be in this earthly paradise, because then the dead will rise. I'm sure you will too. What God wanted, you tried to do. Ultimately, Larry Hall was once again sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
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The confidential informant was a man named Jimmy Keene. He had been convicted in 1997 of conspiracy to distribute controlled substances. And from there, he was sentenced to 10 years in a minimum security prison. But in 1998, after serving only 10 months of his sentence, Jimmy was approached by US Attorney Lawrence Beaumont. During their meeting, Beaumont pushed a large folder across the table.
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And when Jimmy opened it up, he was shocked to see the dead mutilated body of a young girl. It was Jessica Roach. As Jimmy continued flipping through the pages, he found a picture of Trisha Reitler. Beaumont told Jimmy that Trisha had likely been killed by a suspected serial killer named Larry Hall and that they needed his help. They told Jimmy that they wanted to transfer him to Larry's prison.
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Once there, he would befriend him. And if Jimmy could get Larry to tell them the whereabouts of Trisha Reitler's body, then they would let Jimmy walk free with a clean criminal record. However, if he failed, there would be no early release. Now, this wasn't an easy decision. Larry was at a maximum security prison with mentally ill and violent offenders.
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But Jimmy still had nine years left of his sentence, and his father was growing older. In his novel, In With the Devil, Jimmy wrote, quote, So ultimately, Jimmy accepted the offer. Now after being transferred to Larry's prison, Jimmy was instructed to be patient.
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Larry Hall was a very introverted man who didn't have a lot of friends, so he couldn't just walk up and start asking him questions right away. In fact, Jimmy was told to wait six whole months before he even approached Larry, but Jimmy didn't want to wait that long. So, not long after he was transferred, he pretended to bump into Larry on his way out of the cafeteria.
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At first, Larry was on edge, but Jimmy quickly apologized. He told Larry that he was new to prison and that he needed help finding the library. Luckily, Larry took the bait. Together, they walked to the library. Once there, Jimmy thanked Larry for being cool, and according to Jimmy, Larry responded, You think I'm cool?
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
That was never an adjective people used when describing Larry Hall, and this would mark the start of their little pseudo-friendship. Over the next few weeks, Jimmy continued to strike up conversations with Larry Hall, and eventually, Larry asked Jimmy to have breakfast with him and the group of inmates he hung out with.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Now, Larry's group in the prison was referred to as baby killers, and they were all the social outcasts. One of the men had taken a chainsaw and killed his entire family, and another had murdered two young girls. And then there was Larry, who also killed young girls. So Jimmy wasn't excited to have breakfast with them, but he had to. And slowly over time, he began to earn Larry's trust.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
About four months into his transfer, Jimmy and Larry were spending nearly every day together, and up until this point, Larry wasn't comfortable discussing his crimes. But on this day, he finally admitted that he had been convicted of killing a young girl named Jessica Roach. Larry told Jimmy that he had been in the Georgetown area for a reenactment.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
And while there, he spotted the 15 year old pushing her bike down the road. So he pulled over and asked if she needed any help. Now, Larry made sure to point out that Jessica wanted to talk to him and that she willingly got into the van. But when he tried to kiss her, she began to freak out. So using a chloroform rag, he placed it over her face.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
From here, Larry said that he tied her up in the back of the van and drove to a remote location. When Jimmy asked if he had sex with her, he responded,
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Now, like we mentioned, Larry did really poorly in school. By the time he was in junior high, he was still reading below a sixth grade level. With his low IQ, it was difficult for him to grasp the curriculum. But the one subject he always did really well in was history. He loved hearing the stories of all the different wars, especially the United States Civil War.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
But sadly, Larry wouldn't reveal where Trisha was located. However, a few weeks later, Jimmy said that he walked into the prison workshop where he saw Larry looking at a map with all of these red dots over locations in Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin. But when Jimmy walked over, Larry quickly closed the map and pushed it off to the side.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Jimmy believed that the map showed the locations of where Larry's victims were buried, but he wasn't able to get a hold of it. And soon after this, Jimmy and Larry actually got into an altercation. During which, Jimmy told Larry he was a piece of shit for killing those young girls. And from then on, their relationship was over. And Jimmy's time as an informant had come to an end.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Now, even though he wasn't able to help investigators find Trisha's body, he did get Larry to confess to Trisha's murder. He didn't get it on recording or anything, but investigators gave him a polygraph regarding all the information he had received from Larry, and he passed. So, on February 24th, 1999, U.S.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Attorney Beaumont urged a federal judge to give Jimmy credit for time served, and he was allowed to leave prison a free man. He even got to spend another five years with his father, until his death in 2004. But sadly, their operation didn't go as planned, and to this day, the body of Trisha Reitler has never been found.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
However, her parents, Gary and Donna Reitler, still cling to hope that one day they will have answers. Here's what they told CNN in their special report to catch a serial killer.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
But other than that, he really struggled in school, and it was still hard for him to make friends. By the time he was hitting puberty, Larry was described as short, chubby, and he had a lot of acne, something that kids would make fun of him for. It was reported that he would often walk through the halls with his head down. However, on the other hand, his brother Gary was thriving.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Today, Larry Hall is serving out his life sentence in the federal correctional complex, Butner, in North Carolina. He will remain incarcerated for the rest of his life. And in honor of today's episode, we will be making a donation to Night Owl Reconnaissance, a non-profit organization that searches for missing people and provides support for families. Hey, everybody.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. If you are interested in the story, Apple TV actually created a very good miniseries called Blackbird about that informant operation. It's a really great miniseries. It's very well acted, very well shot. So if you want to see kind of the intricacies of what happened inside of the prison, it's very interesting.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
I would highly recommend you go check that out. If you love Murder in America and you want to help us do what we do and help support the show, please consider joining us over on Patreon. We have an amazing community over on Patreon. And if you join us on there, you can get access to a number of awesome things.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
You can get early access to the episodes, episodes without the ads in them if you don't like the ads. And additionally, there are bonus episodes that are only going to be on Patreon. They are full episodes of Murder in America, just like the ones you listen to here on the main feed. We drop multiple every single month.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
So if you like the show and you want to help us continue doing what we do, please consider joining us there. And thank you to everybody in the past who already has. As always, follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. And be sure to leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this show.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Gary had a big friend group. He was popular, outgoing, and he was involved in school sports. So the two brothers couldn't have been more different from one another. Larry often compared himself to his twin brother. He wanted to be more like him, but he didn't know how. Which only led Larry to have even more insecurities.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
Anyways, y'all, thank you so much for tuning in. Courtney and I hope everybody has an absolutely incredible weekend and I'll catch y'all on the next one.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
they would never be anything more at age 15 larry and gary started to get into some trouble that year they were actually arrested for breaking a storefront window in downtown wabash once the boys were taken to the station they sat down with detective ron smith and apparently larry confessed that he was the one who broke the window from there robert and bernice were forced to pay the damage a total of five hundred dollars
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
and Robert made Larry mow the cemetery lawn to pay it back. But this was only the beginning of a set of petty crimes Larry would be responsible for. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, several mysterious fires were set around Wabash, including fires at a lumberyard, a bridge, and a few buildings. Now, they were never able to catch the arsonist, but they always suspected it was the Hall twins.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
And later on, Larry would later admit that he was responsible for the fires. And by this point, he had admitted to and committed two specific behaviors that are often seen in budding serial killers, bedwetting and setting fires.
Murder In America
EP. 200: SERIAL KILLER Larry Hall
That day, out in a rural area of Natrona County, Wyoming, a nude body of a woman was found in a shallow grave. Horrifically, she had barbed wire knotted around her neck that indicated the cause of death was strangulation. But because she was in such an advanced state of decomposition, she wouldn't be identified for years.