Trevor and Christiana speak with professor, sociologist, and MacArthur Fellowship winner Ruha Benjamin about some of the pressing political and social issues of the day. The three discuss whether DEI initiatives are in fact valuable and how the world will look without them, why universities honor people whose voices they’ve previously tried to silence, and how best to navigate a world that was not built for us. Can the three collectively imagine a better world order? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Why was Trevor Noah expelled from school?
So I was expelled from my primary school.
Yeah. And now if you drive past it, no joke, they have, they'll have like a banner flying sometimes. I love it. We're proud that Trevor Noah went to, and I look at it and I'm like, you guys kicked me out. You guys kicked me out of the school. And now you're putting up a banner like, we are proud to be the school that Trevor Noah went to. Then I'm like, but you kicked me out.
This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. You know, it's funny. In preparing for this conversation, I was thinking, there's very few people we sit down with where you can talk about as many topics as we can with you. Like when I think of a Venn diagram of conversation, Ruha fits perfectly in the middle of most of these events. I mean, like everything.
Master of none, though. Master of none. Don't say that.
No, no, no, no. Actually, you should say that. You think she's a master of none? Actually, you should say that. I'm going to read you the full quote. So I like to consider myself a master of none. And I used to hate it my whole life. Until, I'll read you the full quote. The full saying is, a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.
Yes.
I love it. I love it. You know, the word amateur. There's a beautiful essay by Edward Said where he talks about, you know, the difference between professionals and amateurs. And he says, you know, at the heart of amateur is amor. It's love.
It is the love of something.
It's actually a source of pride because you're infusing love. You're led by love, not necessarily a need for status and accolades and professional sort of titles. And so I embrace that. Let me say, this lady has a MacArthur.
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Chapter 2: How does Ruha Benjamin view DEI initiatives?
You know, of these kind of emerging technology projects that I think of as truly liberatory in that the goal is to, you know, engender self-determination and cultural preservation and a return, a right to return.
I've been wrestling with this idea, and some of it has been inspired by conversations, some of it has just been reading, learning, etc., about how much responsibility everybody bears for how they frame every single conversation they have. Right?
And the reason I think about it is because, you know, in our conversation, we've touched on ideas of intention, culture, power, perception, you know, all of these things. And I can't help but think about Israel, Palestine and how when I've sat down.
with people who are pro-israel israeli or jewish and jewish american what's been interesting to me is seeing how different or how differently people are hearing the same thing do you know what i mean so here's a simple one not the simple issue but like just an example you know there's a chant that people often say from the river to the sea palestine shall be free
For anyone I know who's Palestinian, when I've asked them, what does that chant mean? They say, well, we want freedom for all our people, not just in Gaza, but from the West Bank. We want freedom for everyone. Yeah, from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea. We want our freedom, you know, and that's what we chant.
And then when I've spoken to my friends who are Jewish or Israeli maybe, and not even religious Jew or whatever, but Jewish, they go, no, this is a chance of genocide. They're saying from the river to the sea, they're going to cleanse us. What stands in the way of the river and the sea? It's Israel. And...
And I can't help but have compassion for anyone I speak to in this because in some ways, like in South Africa, we've had stories like this where there was a struggle song and a chant that was sung by black people who were fighting against an apartheid government. And then now that song, some people feel like targets them if they are a white person who's a farmer in the country.
And then the person singing it goes like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not about that. And I couldn't help but think about like how many times Nelson Mandela would give a speech. Yeah. And at times I would think it was unnecessary, but he would say, he would go like, I am not for the oppression of black people. And he's like, and I'm against the oppression of white people.
And I'd be like, well, that's an unnecessary, why would you need to say? I used to think that all the time when I'd hear it.
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Chapter 3: What role does diversity play in institutional inclusion?
But it's also like that's the whole, like so much of AI is about prediction and it closes off possibilities in my view, like closes off, you know, futures when we try to predict everything. And so part of it is like, you know, we think about these institutions, what we've been experiencing, I think is like pulling back the curtain on what was already there to begin with.
It just has become more manifest to like these interests of big donors, for example, There was always there manipulating things behind the scenes, but now it's come to stark light because of the protest. So I feel like in this moment, it's an opportunity to be truthful about what these institutions are about, what our own complicities and obligations are.
And to act on those truths rather than feeling disillusioned or we're going backwards somehow. Really thinking about who we join in community with to actually build the world. And the world is not some grand thing, but like the micro worlds, the reality that we have to function in. And I would say one thing that gives me hope.
is that I'm in a department within a larger institution that is acting on different values, where we're not trying to be stars, but we're trying to cultivate a constellation, a community in which we're in this together. And so I feel tangibly that it's possible to do things differently, even if the dominant culture of whatever industry or institution we're in is moving in one direction.
We have the power, especially when we band together and we work together to actually create a different way of doing things, perhaps like a seed that can grow and become a model for something that we want to develop over time.
Wow, that's amazing. From saying maybe you won't have something and then you had it all. I know. Ruha, thank you so much for joining us.
Pleasure, pleasure.
Yeah, I can't wait to see where your journey takes you. We'll be following keenly, reading the books, listening to what you say, and hopefully you'll come and join us again.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me, both of you.
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