1. Why Emily couldn’t stop crying (and it wasn’t because she was emotional). 2. The intervention that got Emily sober – and why Amy wasn’t there. 3. Glennon admits something that she’s never told anyone before. 4. Amy and Abby agree on the shared cost of internalized homophobia and misogyny. About Indigo Girls: One of the most successful folk duos in history – Amy Ray and Emily Sailers aka THE INDIGO GIRLS – has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records. Committed and uncompromising activists, they work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, and death penalty reform. They are co-founders of Honor the Earth, a non-profit dedicated to the survival of sustainable Native communities, Indigenous environmental justice, and green energy solutions. Their latest record, Look Long is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. IG: @indigogirlsmusic, @emilysaliers & @amyraymusic TW: @Indigo_Girls, @EmilySaliers & @AmyRay To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Why did Glennon feel nervous about interviewing the Indigo Girls?
Why are you nervous?
Yeah. Oh, well, that's a good place to start. I don't know. I'm nervous because if they're, are two people in the entire world who have meant more to me artistically. There aren't any more people who are, see, I'm doing great. I'm crushing it and completing sentences. So when I was getting sober, I was 25 and I had just decided that my feelings were too much to feel.
Chapter 2: How did the Indigo Girls influence Glennon's sobriety?
So I just numbed myself out forever. And then I found out I was pregnant. So I had to figure out how to human. And I still thought I couldn't feel my feelings or I would die. So I was freshly sober. And when I got sober, I was almost dead. I was like in a very bad place. And I used to practice being human. I would start one of your songs.
I would allow myself like the four minutes of one Indigo Girl song. And I would lay on my bed and allow myself to feel feelings for those four minutes and And for the first month, two months of sobriety, that's, I would say, you don't have to feel any other time. Just those four minutes.
And do you think that I have spent a single day of our lives, like since I got sober for 20 years without listening to you all?
Not one.
Every day of my life.
Wow. You both are the background in our life and our children's life.
So do you think we should tell the people who we're talking to and about?
Yes.
Today we are talking to and having a double date with the most important duo of Abby and I's lives. Yep. Emily Saylors and Amy Rae, the Indigo Girls, who together make the most important music of our lifetime.
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Chapter 3: Who are the Indigo Girls and what is their impact?
Mm-hmm.
One of the most successful folk duos in history, Amy Rae and Emily Saylors, aka the Indigo Girls, has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records. That sounds impressive, but I bought 14 million of them. Committed and uncompromising activists. They work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, and death penalty reform. They are co-founders of Honor the Earth.
a nonprofit dedicated to the survival of sustainable native communities, indigenous environmental justice, and green energy solutions. Their latest record, Look Long, Love, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.
Amy and Emily, thank you for saving our lives and being here today. Oh, man, it's an honor. It really is for us.
Yeah, totally. Such an honor. And wow, what a story.
Yeah. I was going to say, Glennon, if you were trying to have an introductory course into feeling feelings... I would have picked like Barry Manilow instead of the Indigo Girls because we're like so intense, you know, and emotional.
Wait, Barry Manilow is so intense.
Well, I mean, it just would have been like a gentler introduction into real feelings. That's curious to me.
Because I feel like at that time, I had never heard... music that honored the complication of being a woman. Like, you were really honoring the complication of life listening to light stuff or reading light stuff makes me feel worse because I feel like, oh, I guess everyone else is fine and not swirly.
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Chapter 4: What changes have the Indigo Girls observed in LGBTQ acceptance over the years?
That's a good question. There's some things that are similar. I'll say like kids that are in certain areas of the country or live in certain families or go to certain churches really still have the roughest time ever. So that's a similarity. But the difference would be I feel like access to language for one thing. We didn't know what the word gay meant. really, when we were kids.
We were like, is that bestiality? Because we were in suburban South. Now, when you come out, you understand that there's sexuality and there's gender and that's different. And you understand you have the grasp of all these things about gender dysphoria, gender fluidity, bisexuality, trans issues are in the forefront, which they should be.
And so for me, I think for the most important difference, the thing that helped me the most when I got older was all of a sudden having all this language to talk about where I was at. You know, and I also think you can reach out through the, you know, internet and find some mentors. I mean, when you're suffering, you don't have anybody to turn to, you know, where you live.
Yeah.
You don't have any role models. There's so many role models and there's so much information. Emily's probably got some.
I agree with everything you've said. And because through the Internet or through community groups that can focus on queer community, it's I think maybe people who are coming out don't have to deal so much with the self-hatred and self-homophobia that I'll speak for my own self that I still deal with.
You know, because I think the more you have a community out there, especially if you have access, and I'm not talking about kids in a rural or, you know, super evangelical Christian or any kind of household that makes it as difficult as it ever was. But for kids who have, like where I live, it's pretty progressive and there's, you know, queer alliances and even kids who are...
you know, lean more towards heteronormative are belong to these groups. And so there's more of a sense of, I have a place where I can be when I was coming up, all I heard was you're different. You'll never be validated. Uh, what are we going to do with this band? When we got signed, we can't like, you know, sell their sexuality as women, uh, And all these things.
And, you know, I still am unraveling that. So I think that's a difference, too. Like some of the young people I know who come out are just they're so overjoyed and happy and they didn't have to fight this dark internal battle.
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Chapter 5: How do internalized homophobia and fear affect LGBTQ individuals?
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So a couple of things. This is a complicated conversation. All right. Sometimes when I get on the interwebs and start talking about like fluidity and choice and whatever, usually someone calls like Brandy calls me and says, slow down. You're not allowed to talk like that. Well, actually in reality, she just called and said, let's talk this through.
Tell me what you're thinking and I'll tell you what I think. And her points were very well, you know, she, there are people in the, in, in churches and in places where when you start talking about, maybe I don't identify with born this way, maybe there is a fluidity and maybe there's choice involved, then the people who are sending their kids to conversion therapy use that as an excuse.
Like, it's like the people from the Bible belt need the excuse that God made you this way in order to allow their children to be who they are. So I get all of that. But
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Chapter 6: What is Glennon's revelation about her past and sexuality?
So you were trying to tell her something.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't come out to her for like six years after that. But still, it was it was like one of the most important moments of my life. And y'all were a big part of it.
Do you all think there's room for the conversation of choice and fluidity? Do you feel like there are forces in the world? Adrienne Rich used to say, I'm a lesbian for political reasons. Or, you know, the second wave of feminism, what they used to say that, oh God, liberation is the goal and lesbianism is the way or something like that.
There have been times where being a lesbian by choice, not in a way that it was like, I would be different if I could, but I was born this way because there's some sort of apologetic like vibe. It's not like I would be different, but I'm gay. Like, no, this is the best life. This is the best choice. This is on purpose, kind of. Do you feel that that's dangerous to the conversation or do you?
But, you know, in the context of the second wave, it was a political statement like separatism was, you know, like we need a safe space. Men are doing a lot of harm. And politically, we need to be liberated from that power in order to be ourselves, actualize who we really are. And I think lesbianism was used as a term equated with separatism, right?
So I think it's like totally like maybe a different context than like now. I don't know what the science is, but I know that I feel like you can be born in many different ways on the spectrum of who you're attracted to, right? So if you're born kind of in the middle, your nurturing can might push you one way or the other, maybe, or you can be taught that it's not cool to be in the middle.
And that's a sin too. Or your gender can be forced on you when you don't feel that gender. There's like so many circumstances. I guess I feel like things are more fluid than we know, you know, but but I think the political movements are like second wave. I think they were making a point, you know, which is so different from now.
Yeah.
I think it's still relevant. Don't you think, Emily? I don't know.
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