Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Fri, 18 Apr 2025
Send us a textLeigh Anne McKingsley shares her journey as Senior Director of Disability and Justice Initiatives for the ARC, where she oversees the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability to address the invisibility and injustices faced by people with intellectual and developmental disabilities in the justice system.• The ARC began as a parent advocacy group fighting against institutionalization of children with disabilities and has evolved over 70+ years to promote inclusion through policy work and direct support• McKingsley's "Pathways to Justice" training brings together law enforcement, attorneys, and service providers to create community-based solutions through Disability Response Teams• Studies show 2 in 10 prisoners and 3 in 10 jail inmates report cognitive disabilities, yet proper accommodations and understanding remain limited• People with intellectual and developmental disabilities are 30-40% more likely to also have mental health conditions, creating complex support needs• Misinterpretation of behaviors like stimming can lead to unnecessary criminalization when officers don't recognize disability-related behaviors• Personal stories from those with lived experience are crucial for creating change, though "double stigma" of disability and justice involvement creates barriers• Success often comes from asking simple questions like "What accommodation do you need?" rather than focusing on specific diagnosesTo learn more or get involved with the ARC's National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, visit their website or contact them directly to help create pathways to justice in your community.https://tonymantor.comhttps://Facebook.com/tonymantorhttps://instagram.com/tonymantorhttps://twitter.com/tonymantorhttps://youtube.com/tonymantormusicintro/outro music bed written by T. WildWhy Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)
Chapter 1: Who is Leigh Anne McKingsley and what is her role at the ARC?
My background was more mental health as well, as you were talking. And I got interested as I was working through my master's of social work, and then I got a dual master's in public administration. We had our own jail overcrowding issue here in in Texas that I was interested in addressing. That also intersected with mental health issues.
And I was working with Senator Moncrief's office here in Fort Worth, Texas. And all of these things converged into what can we do to keep people out of the criminal justice system that have mental health disabilities? But then, lo and behold, there was an ad in the paper from the ARC of the United States that I had never even heard of before.
And they were looking for someone to oversee a project because of the Title II, the Americans with Disabilities Act, where we could educate law enforcement attorneys, people with disabilities about their accommodations under the Title II. So that's when I got hired at the ARC. And that is when I first... started seeing all of the injustices that people with IDD, including autism.
When I say IDD, I'm talking about a much broader field, looking at autism, but also people with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, people with all kinds of developmental disabilities who may not have a specific term attached to it.
They still have a developmental disability and how often they remain invisible in our criminal justice system and how little there is in terms of research and supports when someone gets involved in the system. So it was 11 years ago that we started the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability. It was kind of a lifelong dream.
to create a center that could really house this kind of information and provide resources. And we also have a national information referral line so that people with disabilities, parents, attorneys, whoever, can call to get information and to actually get advocacy in these different types of cases.
So can you tell us what the ARC actually stands for?
So the ARC does not really stand for anything. It did back in the day. Originally, the ARC started out because of parents who were wanting to advocate for their children to be able to go to school, have an education, not live in institutions. And they said no to the doctors that said your child would be better off in an institution.
And they kept their children with them and then started fighting for education. And that's how the ARC started. And it was the Association for Retarded Citizens at that time. But due to the stigma, obviously, of that word, now the ARC goes by the ARC.
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Chapter 2: What is the history and mission of the ARC?
Chapter 3: How did Leigh Anne McKingsley get involved in disability and justice initiatives?
My background was more mental health as well, as you were talking. And I got interested as I was working through my master's of social work, and then I got a dual master's in public administration. We had our own jail overcrowding issue here in in Texas that I was interested in addressing. That also intersected with mental health issues.
And I was working with Senator Moncrief's office here in Fort Worth, Texas. And all of these things converged into what can we do to keep people out of the criminal justice system that have mental health disabilities? But then, lo and behold, there was an ad in the paper from the ARC of the United States that I had never even heard of before.
And they were looking for someone to oversee a project because of the Title II, the Americans with Disabilities Act, where we could educate law enforcement attorneys, people with disabilities about their accommodations under the Title II. So that's when I got hired at the ARC. And that is when I first... started seeing all of the injustices that people with IDD, including autism.
When I say IDD, I'm talking about a much broader field, looking at autism, but also people with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, people with all kinds of developmental disabilities who may not have a specific term attached to it.
They still have a developmental disability and how often they remain invisible in our criminal justice system and how little there is in terms of research and supports when someone gets involved in the system. So it was 11 years ago that we started the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability. It was kind of a lifelong dream.
to create a center that could really house this kind of information and provide resources. And we also have a national information referral line so that people with disabilities, parents, attorneys, whoever, can call to get information and to actually get advocacy in these different types of cases.
So can you tell us what the ARC actually stands for?
So the ARC does not really stand for anything. It did back in the day. Originally, the ARC started out because of parents who were wanting to advocate for their children to be able to go to school, have an education, not live in institutions. And they said no to the doctors that said your child would be better off in an institution.
And they kept their children with them and then started fighting for education. And that's how the ARC started. And it was the Association for Retarded Citizens at that time. But due to the stigma, obviously, of that word, now the ARC goes by the ARC.
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Chapter 4: What progress has been made in justice for people with developmental disabilities?
So you want to make sure that we have people with disabilities involved at the very beginning of all of these discussions.
I've been told with legislators, you need to sit down with them, throw away the emotions, give them facts and figures on how they can save taxpayer money by doing something or changing some of the things that are being done. Now, I think on the judges, it has to be a little bit more emotional. Still have the facts. Get them to look at the person that's in front of them.
Hopefully have a little empathy towards them. Use the knowledge of what you did with the legislators and the emotions to get across of them that they might be able to help that person have a better life by doing something a little bit different than they would have done.
I really think it's a two-pronged approach. I think your best bet is to have both. You need the story because honestly, what does motivate us? Now, numbers are important and understanding that the bottom line on how not supporting people is going to increase people going into the system, which ups the cost of your community or your state.
But you also really need to understand the stories and the why behind why it's so important that we address it. And I think when you bring someone's story, it creates that sense of urgency, too, to understand this could have been your son, your daughter. Frankly, we look for judges or attorneys who have that personal connection.
If you can find someone with a family connection or has lived it themselves, all the better to have them tell it from their perspective of why this issue is so important. So when we go in and we create these disability response teams with our chapters, we ask, who's already involved? What kind of training are police getting? Are your local prosecutors getting?
Is there someone there who has a son or daughter with an intellectual developmental disability or a family member? And let's start with where you are at and what you have. And we'll just come in and support that and provide a template of how you can grow that in your community.
I've heard that one in seven people around the world either know someone or has someone that's autistic in their family. I've heard one in eight people around the world has a mental disability of some sort. Those numbers are pretty staggering. With those kind of numbers, the possibility of you coming in contact with someone that has one or both of those scenarios
Now, those people can be law enforcement, DAs, ADAs, judges. It can cover the whole judicial system and beyond. Because of that, what seems to be the issue to why we can't get them more involved even though it is getting better in some areas?
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Chapter 5: What is the 'Pathways to Justice' training and how does it help communities?
Imagine being in the criminal justice system and stigmas that you may face and Imagine having autism or another type of a developmental disability and knowing that if you say something in jail or in prison, what that could do or what that could mean.
So I think there's still a lot of this not being talked about or fear of talking openly about disability, which can impact the ability to know the true numbers. But we still don't have a lot of good screening tools either to get to that. exactly how many people are affected by different types of disabilities.
We do know from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there's data specific to the number of people in prisons and jails. Two in 10 prisoners and three in 10 jail inmates reported having some type of a cognitive disability. That's a pretty broad term that they use there. It includes people with Down syndrome, autism, dementia, learning disabilities. intellectual disability, and traumatic brain injury.
It would probably help us to know a little bit more specifically what types of disabilities that people have in the criminal justice system, but that's one example of how we're trying to get to the data so that we can know what kind of accommodations are needed. And the more we understand about the type of disability, the better we can pinpoint the accommodations and supports.
Yeah, that makes sense. When you meet with a person for the first time, it can be a judge, a DA, anyone within the legal system. You tell them what you're trying to do. What's your approach? You don't know where they stand. You might know a little bit on where you think they stand. Sometimes your perception is not always correct.
What's your approach in talking with them, discussions, trying to show them? that they hopefully will look at it in a different view than what they might have.
I think we often start with thinking through why they signed up for this job. And this is when you understand disability better, you do your job better. If you're really out to prosecute a case, then you need to understand within that case that this person has a disability. You've got to understand the facets of that. Who do you reach out to understand it? Who's there to support that help?
Whether it's someone prosecuting a case, someone defending a case, a law enforcement officer wanting to do their job well. The more you understand how to approach someone, the safer everyone can be. So we try to really posit it as, You want to do the job the best way you can. We want to help you do your job.
So we just want to share about why it's important to understand about disability so that everyone can walk away, so that everyone deserves justice. So why are people with disabilities any different? But the truth is they aren't getting it. And this is why we start there and give very basic examples of how injustices are happening. And a lot of times people just don't know. They don't know.
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Chapter 6: Why is it important to include people with lived experience in Disability Response Teams?
change the narrative and the understanding around these issues. Absolutely change can happen, but we've got to get more focus on these issues so that there's more support and more acceptance to want to talk about it.
I think the stories are there waiting to be had, but there's still a lot more in terms of figuring out how to bring, I think, more collaboration to the table between the disability world, the And policing, that's what NCCJD, our national center, was set up to do is to create that collaborative space. so that we can learn how to work together to raise this issue.
Chapter 7: How can legislation and advocacy improve justice outcomes for people with IDD?
But having people with disabilities who've lived it leading that effort is what we're really seeking to do and bringing their story forward. I think people who have lived it and bring their story are the biggest hope that we have because we all can feel and see and taste and experience through their stories that something can change.
But just relaying it ourselves is not near as strong as hearing it from them directly.
How do we get more people like that to get in front of people to tell them their stories?
We ourselves have experienced at the center difficulty in finding those stories. We have, as I said, our national information referral line that we will look for stories through there. But I think there's a double stigma with disability as well as, say, being a victim of a crime or being a suspect of a crime. It's almost like you've got dual stigmas going on.
And people, I think, don't always feel comfortable talking about the reality of their lives, what they have faced or what they are facing. And sometimes even because they're in the system right now, they can't talk about it. So the nature of what we're trying to raise awareness about makes it that much more difficult to bring these stories out.
And often it's people that have already had a certain number of years of healing or families that now can talk about it. I think that's one of the reasons why it makes it challenging.
Yes, I can understand that for sure. There is a certain perception of it and people don't get it. When I first started my podcast, I was one of them. The more people that I spoke with, the more people I had on my podcast, the more I started understanding what their lives are like every day. One of the big things that I did find is that everything I thought was completely wrong.
The same thing can be said about mental health because there's a lot of things there that people just do not understand either. So the people that lived it every day are the ones that taught me what I know today. Sad part is bad things happen. We don't understand it, and those that do not understand it make judgments of toss them in jail, throw away the key, when that's not the answer at all.
What they should know is help them into a facility that can work with them every single day to give them a chance of having a better life.
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Chapter 8: What are the current challenges in raising awareness and reducing stigma around disabilities in the justice system?
Absolutely. The one thing that I've learned doing this podcast from so many different people, they found out later in life they was autistic. But before that, they were either ADHD, bipolar or whatever it might be. And then many times they were autistic and found out later on they had one or two different diagnosis that would overlap each other.
Absolutely. And also an officer or an attorney, whoever's working with the individual, they don't have to know exactly the disability. They can just ask, what do you need help with? What accommodation do you need?
We often say it's not about you trying to figure out the disability as much as it is having that willingness to accommodate and just knowing that there are people with different disabilities and that's what could be going on here. Did I think about that? Did we stop and slow the situation down and think this through or think about does that victim need an extra support? What is it they need?
So a lot of this can be addressed with what we do know today. So that's just an important message.
Yeah, absolutely. In closing, what would you like to leave us with that you think is very important for them to hear and understand?
The one I just ended on, which is to keep an open mind around people with autism and other developmental disabilities who are at risk of getting involved in the criminal justice system or already in the system. To think much more deeply and broadly about why they are there and what's going on and how you can create change for that person.
We know that change can happen both on an individual level, just by helping to identify supports for someone, but also at the systemic level. So we can do better in our systems to collaborate together to provide those kinds of supports. And people really can make a huge difference in one person's life. I've seen it many times through the National Center.
And you may think you're not doing much of anything. But just making that one phone call or doing that one outreach to another agency could really mean a huge difference in the life of someone. So please do all you can. And feel free to contact the ARC and our National Center to be part of that solution. We are always looking for help and others to come alongside and help us do the work.
Yeah, great. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. It's been great.
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