Leigh Anne McKingsley
Appearances
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
It remains invisible. I don't even want to think about the number of victims with IDD all over our country, all over our world, where it doesn't even come to the light of day. Where do you think that trauma goes? There's so much trauma out there that's just simply unaddressed.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Absolutely. I love that you said that because a lot of the work that we've been doing through the center has focused on some of the harder issues like sexual violence of people with IDD. And it's so hard to bring that message because people feel like, what can we do? Especially if someone doesn't use spoken language to communicate, right? How do they even report?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And we have a project right now funded through the Office of Violence Against Women that we're working on that very issue. So we always bring that there is hope. The problem is when people have to be silent and when we don't give people the tools to even advocate for themselves. That's been the problem.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
The bigger problem is that nobody has the tools or ability to talk about the injustices that they're facing. But I work with a couple of amazing people, one that I've worked with many years who is a survivor of sexual violence and one that I've worked with since the center started who where they have used their platform and their story to really help
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And I was working with Senator Moncrief's office here in Fort Worth, Texas. And all of these things converged into what can we do to keep people out of the criminal justice system that have mental health disabilities? But then, lo and behold, there was an ad in the paper from the ARC of the United States that I had never even heard of before.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
change the narrative and the understanding around these issues. Absolutely change can happen, but we've got to get more focus on these issues so that there's more support and more acceptance to want to talk about it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
I think the stories are there waiting to be had, but there's still a lot more in terms of figuring out how to bring, I think, more collaboration to the table between the disability world, the And policing, that's what NCCJD, our national center, was set up to do is to create that collaborative space. so that we can learn how to work together to raise this issue.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But having people with disabilities who've lived it leading that effort is what we're really seeking to do and bringing their story forward. I think people who have lived it and bring their story are the biggest hope that we have because we all can feel and see and taste and experience through their stories that something can change.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But just relaying it ourselves is not near as strong as hearing it from them directly.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
We ourselves have experienced at the center difficulty in finding those stories. We have, as I said, our national information referral line that we will look for stories through there. But I think there's a double stigma with disability as well as, say, being a victim of a crime or being a suspect of a crime. It's almost like you've got dual stigmas going on.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And people, I think, don't always feel comfortable talking about the reality of their lives, what they have faced or what they are facing. And sometimes even because they're in the system right now, they can't talk about it. So the nature of what we're trying to raise awareness about makes it that much more difficult to bring these stories out.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And often it's people that have already had a certain number of years of healing or families that now can talk about it. I think that's one of the reasons why it makes it challenging.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Absolutely. That's called criminalizing people with disabilities, whether it's a mental health disability or it's an intellectual developmental disability like autism. That has been a huge issue in our country because there is simply nowhere else for people to go. And the default has been our criminal justice system. And because people may show different behaviors and,
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And they were looking for someone to oversee a project because of the Title II, the Americans with Disabilities Act, where we could educate law enforcement attorneys, people with disabilities about their accommodations under the Title II. So that's when I got hired at the ARC. And that is when I first... started seeing all of the injustices that people with IDD, including autism.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
that can be seen from law enforcement as you're not listening or not respecting It can be behaviors that are concerning to people who don't understand disability. And I often like to explain it this way because we often talk about it as crisis in our country, looking at when someone's in crisis and what do we do and crisis intervention.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And so I often explain it when we do trainings that the crisis is in the eye of the beholder. Because what looks like a crisis to a law enforcement officer may be an everyday thing for someone with autism. And for example, someone who's stimming. That could come off as, oh, that's concerning behavior, but that's actually how they're able to calm themselves down.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So it's these misunderstandings, miscommunications going on. that it's really on us as a society to understand better so that we can be more inclusive.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But that means we have to be educating and being willing to hear each other out when it comes to building more inclusive systems, including within our criminal justice system, to really understand disabilities, be able to provide those accommodations and long-term supports so that people have other options than just calling 911, for example. That was the whole purpose of 988.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And I don't know if I mentioned that when it comes to mental health, people with intellectual developmental disabilities are more likely to have a mental health disability, somewhere between 30 to 40% more likely. So there's this organization called the National Association of Dual Diagnosis, or NAD, where that is their whole focus. is that specific population.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And I've been working with them off and on for many years around criminal justice issues too. So that is important to keep in mind that there's that intersection of disability.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Absolutely. And also an officer or an attorney, whoever's working with the individual, they don't have to know exactly the disability. They can just ask, what do you need help with? What accommodation do you need?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
We often say it's not about you trying to figure out the disability as much as it is having that willingness to accommodate and just knowing that there are people with different disabilities and that's what could be going on here. Did I think about that? Did we stop and slow the situation down and think this through or think about does that victim need an extra support? What is it they need?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So a lot of this can be addressed with what we do know today. So that's just an important message.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
The one I just ended on, which is to keep an open mind around people with autism and other developmental disabilities who are at risk of getting involved in the criminal justice system or already in the system. To think much more deeply and broadly about why they are there and what's going on and how you can create change for that person.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
When I say IDD, I'm talking about a much broader field, looking at autism, but also people with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, people with all kinds of developmental disabilities who may not have a specific term attached to it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
We know that change can happen both on an individual level, just by helping to identify supports for someone, but also at the systemic level. So we can do better in our systems to collaborate together to provide those kinds of supports. And people really can make a huge difference in one person's life. I've seen it many times through the National Center.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And you may think you're not doing much of anything. But just making that one phone call or doing that one outreach to another agency could really mean a huge difference in the life of someone. So please do all you can. And feel free to contact the ARC and our National Center to be part of that solution. We are always looking for help and others to come alongside and help us do the work.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Thank you so much, Toni. Appreciate the opportunity.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
They still have a developmental disability and how often they remain invisible in our criminal justice system and how little there is in terms of research and supports when someone gets involved in the system. So it was 11 years ago that we started the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability. It was kind of a lifelong dream.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
to create a center that could really house this kind of information and provide resources. And we also have a national information referral line so that people with disabilities, parents, attorneys, whoever, can call to get information and to actually get advocacy in these different types of cases.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So the ARC does not really stand for anything. It did back in the day. Originally, the ARC started out because of parents who were wanting to advocate for their children to be able to go to school, have an education, not live in institutions. And they said no to the doctors that said your child would be better off in an institution.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And they kept their children with them and then started fighting for education. And that's how the ARC started. And it was the Association for Retarded Citizens at that time. But due to the stigma, obviously, of that word, now the ARC goes by the ARC.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And our focus is really to have inclusion of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, whether that's in schools or everyday life, having access to the same things everybody else does and in a way that is safe and promotes their health and well-being. So we do that through a number of different ways. We have policy. We work with our chapters throughout the country.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
We have over 600 chapters throughout the country. And we're probably one of the best kept secrets when it comes to this type of advocacy and supports for people with IDD.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But we have been doing this work for over 70 years, really focused on people with IDD needing supports, whether it's policy at the local, state, and national level, working on policies that affect people with IDD, but also supporting our chapters who are boots on the ground, providing that advocacy one-on-one for families and for people with IDD.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
It was 11 years ago that we started the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, which is housed within the ARC. And our national offices are in Washington, D.C., and then I work from a home office in Texas.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
In February, it will be 29 years.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
That's a great question. I'll answer that carefully because there have been some progress made in terms of just society having more of an understanding of developmental disabilities, a lot of that because of autism. Now you can turn on Netflix and see shows on autism. I mean, there's just more of a general awareness around disability in some ways.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But we still lack in really people understanding how that affects those in criminal justice situations, those who may be victims of crime. So in certain areas, I think people are still invisible. And that's why those accommodations are so important. And where we have also lacked is in research. And we know we have to have some research to drive change.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Recently, I was involved in a meeting in D.C. that put out a report funded by the National Institutes of Justice to start looking at a research agenda. poor people with IDD involved in the criminal justice system. So there are some ways that there is maybe some more funding to look at these issues. That's because of funding through the Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
That's what gave us the initial seed money to start the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability. So there is some funding out there to do that. But there are still people with IDD who have been killed within... criminal justice system, whether it's through an encounter gone wrong with law enforcement or it's in our prisons and jails.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And then there's victims who are not getting their day in court. There's still a lot to be done, but there have been small incremental changes that have been positive.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And that's a great question. Let me back up and talk about when we first got the grant to start the National Center. One of the things we wanted to do is create training. And that is not the end all be all, but that's part of the solution. And this our training is called Pathways to Justice.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
which is a one-day training for law enforcement, for attorneys and the legal professionals and victim service providers that brings the community together around this issue. So we're not pointing fingers and saying they're not doing their job or they don't help, but we're saying we all have a role to play in this.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Part of that training, we help our sites set up, it's called disability response teams, that are essentially planning teams that look at the systemic issues going on in the community and try to address the underlying issues that are creating the problems that they're seeing as officers or as people with disabilities.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And so that speaks to if you're wanting to change a judge's attitude or understanding or the attorney's or whoever, you've got to start with a key group of people that are working on this together because once they get at the table and start talking about these cases, they realize they may have never even had a chance to do this.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
And we've seen that in our trainings where they just don't have time. There's not the reason to get together and have these conversations. And so we're trying to create that opportunity. A lot of times there's expertise in those communities that just are untapped and they haven't been able to think through some of these solutions together.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But what's always key about these teams is that you have someone with an IDD. someone with lived experience who brings that very important understanding to all of these discussions. Without that, you're missing the boat. And sometimes that's not provided or maybe not provided in a way where accommodations are there to help people meaningfully get involved.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So you want to make sure that we have people with disabilities involved at the very beginning of all of these discussions.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
I really think it's a two-pronged approach. I think your best bet is to have both. You need the story because honestly, what does motivate us? Now, numbers are important and understanding that the bottom line on how not supporting people is going to increase people going into the system, which ups the cost of your community or your state.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
But you also really need to understand the stories and the why behind why it's so important that we address it. And I think when you bring someone's story, it creates that sense of urgency, too, to understand this could have been your son, your daughter. Frankly, we look for judges or attorneys who have that personal connection.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
If you can find someone with a family connection or has lived it themselves, all the better to have them tell it from their perspective of why this issue is so important. So when we go in and we create these disability response teams with our chapters, we ask, who's already involved? What kind of training are police getting? Are your local prosecutors getting?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Is there someone there who has a son or daughter with an intellectual developmental disability or a family member? And let's start with where you are at and what you have. And we'll just come in and support that and provide a template of how you can grow that in your community.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
I think still there's a lot of disability that remains invisible in our society and especially mental health stigma, the stigma of being able to talk about your mental health. We know that's been true in policing for forever until more recently. Now there's a lot more talk about mental wellness and policing, but there still is a stigma of being able to openly talk about this.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Imagine being in the criminal justice system and stigmas that you may face and Imagine having autism or another type of a developmental disability and knowing that if you say something in jail or in prison, what that could do or what that could mean.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So I think there's still a lot of this not being talked about or fear of talking openly about disability, which can impact the ability to know the true numbers. But we still don't have a lot of good screening tools either to get to that. exactly how many people are affected by different types of disabilities.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
We do know from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there's data specific to the number of people in prisons and jails. Two in 10 prisoners and three in 10 jail inmates reported having some type of a cognitive disability. That's a pretty broad term that they use there. It includes people with Down syndrome, autism, dementia, learning disabilities. intellectual disability, and traumatic brain injury.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
It would probably help us to know a little bit more specifically what types of disabilities that people have in the criminal justice system, but that's one example of how we're trying to get to the data so that we can know what kind of accommodations are needed. And the more we understand about the type of disability, the better we can pinpoint the accommodations and supports.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
My background was more mental health as well, as you were talking. And I got interested as I was working through my master's of social work, and then I got a dual master's in public administration. We had our own jail overcrowding issue here in in Texas that I was interested in addressing. That also intersected with mental health issues.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
I think we often start with thinking through why they signed up for this job. And this is when you understand disability better, you do your job better. If you're really out to prosecute a case, then you need to understand within that case that this person has a disability. You've got to understand the facets of that. Who do you reach out to understand it? Who's there to support that help?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
Whether it's someone prosecuting a case, someone defending a case, a law enforcement officer wanting to do their job well. The more you understand how to approach someone, the safer everyone can be. So we try to really posit it as, You want to do the job the best way you can. We want to help you do your job.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Leigh Anne McKingsley: Creating Pathways to Justice for the Developmentally Disabled
So we just want to share about why it's important to understand about disability so that everyone can walk away, so that everyone deserves justice. So why are people with disabilities any different? But the truth is they aren't getting it. And this is why we start there and give very basic examples of how injustices are happening. And a lot of times people just don't know. They don't know.