The first American pope's pro-immigrant views have put him publicly at odds with Vice President JD Vance. How Pope Leo XIV's ancient Catholic order collides with the beliefs of a growing group of converts like Vance. This episode was produced by Amanda Lewellyn and Avishay Artsy, edited by Jolie Myers, fact-checked by Laura Bullard and Gabrielle Berbey, engineered by Andrea Kristinsdottir and Patrick Boyd, and hosted by Noel King and Sean Rameswaram. Listen to Today, Explained ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast. Photo by Francesco Sforza - Vatican Media via Vatican Pool/Getty Images. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is the new American Pope and what are his unique traits?
Noelle, we got a new Pope. What are your favorite facts about American Pope?
He is a White Sox fan.
Chicago Pope has been to a World Series. Amazing. He's a citizen of Peru.
He loves ceviche, in fact. He's 69 years old. He loves to play tennis, like you. He's got Creole roots from New Orleans. A beautiful thing. An American thing. Oh, he loves Christmas movies. What did he major in in school? He was a math major.
He doesn't just love sin, but also costs.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You're so smart.
What are we going to talk about on this show, though, Noelle? These are just fun facts.
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Chapter 2: What are Pope Leo XIV's views on immigration?
Pope Leo XIV has very strong thoughts about immigration. We're going to talk about why.
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Who would explain?
Chapter 3: How did Robert Prevost become Pope Leo XIV?
Hi, I'm Terence Sweeney. I'm a professor in the Honors Program and Humanities Department at Villanova University, which is, of note, the only Augustinian university in the United States. And we now have a very famous alum, the new Pope, Pope Leo, graduate of 1977, and delightfully a math major, continuing a kind of math and chemistry thing.
Pope Francis was a chemistry major as an undergrad, and Leo is a math major, which is great.
A math major and big moment for Villanova, the first Augustinian pope. How surprised was Terence Sweeney?
I was both surprised and not surprised. I've been talking about him with friends and students for the past couple weeks. Yesterday in the morning, I popped into the office of Father Allen, an Augustinian on campus, and I said, are we going to have an Augustinian pope? And he said he didn't think so. And sure enough, a few hours later...
I was watching the live stream, which apparently was lagging a little bit. And I found out who it was when I got a text message from my friend who said, you called it. But at the same time, I was very surprised. I was hopeful for him, but he's an American. And traditionally, that's, oh, it won't happen. I both kind of called it and was totally shocked.
All right. So tell us who he is. Who is Robert Prevost or Pope Leo XIV?
Yeah, Prevost is a kid who grew up in Chicago, went to Villanova University, and there really encountered or continued his encounter with the Augustinians. He had met Augustinians as a young man and joined the order. And I think maybe most notably, then proceeded to spend most of his life as a priest and then a bishop. in the missions in Peru. He could have gotten assigned to Villanova.
He could have gotten assigned to a nice parish in a wealthier part of the United States. But instead, he went to Peru to be with the poor, to do work there, to do ministry there. And I think that's really, in many ways, the heart of who he is. You know, and you can think about, like, you know, I have a pretty cushy spot in Villanova. I have a house. It's, you know, comfortable.
To suddenly shift gears to a totally new culture, learning the language fully in a place that maybe doesn't have as many perks as an American suburban parish might, I think that's a real sign of wanting to be with those on the margins of global power and economics. But I don't think we've had a pope in... centuries who has had this experience of working in the missions.
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Chapter 4: What is the significance of Pope Leo XIV's Augustinian background?
Leo XIII is notable for his work on something called Catholic social thought, what the church brings to the questions of economics and justice and politics. And that has tended to be something that what we call progressive Catholics have really centered on. So I think in some ways it's unclear, which is actually kind of exciting.
I think it's also notable that the language of his first address to the people in St. Peter's Square was richly tied in with Pope Francis. We still preserve
You know, he talked about bridge building and peace being with all of you.
And I think maybe there are some signs that he wants to carry on a lot of what Pope Francis did, but maybe make more connections, we might say, between the kind of Pope Francis side of the church and the Pope Benedict side.
Middle child vibes.
I know. That's me.
Same, actually. All right. So you've mentioned several times that he is an Augustinian. What is an Augustinian exactly?
The Augustinians are a group of – they're called friars. They were founded in 1244. And they're grounded in a deep sense of I think maybe three principles, living in community, a really strong sense that wherever we go, we go together, deep sense of the heart. The Augustinians, if you ever see an icon of St. Augustine, he's often holding a heart.
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Chapter 5: How does Pope Leo XIV's approach differ from traditional Catholicism?
It's a sense that what we need to do is make that connection with other peoples in their heart and a really strong sense of a kind of call to the mission to go out. The original Augustinians often went into cities and places to be with where people were.
And so I think that's important in this kind of tradition of the Augustinians, deeply heart-based, strong aspects of intellectual life, hence Villanova. But it's a really wonderful order and it's so exciting to see them get their moment in the spotlight.
So after Robert Prevost was chosen yesterday, immediately it came to the surface that he had expressed some opinions on immigration. And I saw people, and you had written about this in the past, kind of drawing a line between the Augustinian tradition and the current controversies that the United States is facing over immigration. What is the Augustinian position on immigration?
I think fundamentally one of the most important part of being an Augustinian is sometimes called the order of loves. It's this idea in many ways that our hearts need to grow. You know, our hearts can get very narrow. We can just fall in love only with ourselves. So finding a way to have our hearts expand, to make room for God, who is infinite.
And when you make room for God, you make room for everyone. And that broadening of our hearts, particularly then not for everyone, but also particularly for those in need. And maybe one of the big tasks of his pontificate for Americans, for all kinds of Catholics, for all kinds of people is helping us broaden our hearts. I mean, I think notably, you know, we have a vice president who's Catholic.
But J.D. Vance has spoken about the order of loves.
And I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family and then you love your neighbor and then you love your community and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country. And then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.
In some ways, you can think about what he said as, you know, having a lot of the right words, but getting the tune wrong. He scribed, it's true, one of the very important ideas that The Order of Loves teaches us that we rightly prioritize people who are closer to us. I have my fourth baby on the way. I spend a lot of time and invest a lot of energy and love in those children. They're my children.
And so he's emphasizing that in that kind of sense. And Americans rightly prioritize Americans. And that's true. But he's kind of missing the point of the order of loves that it was supposed to expand and to go outward, whereas Vance seems to be talking about it as a way of retracting and going inward. And Pope Francis challenged him on this. And then notably, you know, the power of a retweet.
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Chapter 6: What controversies surround Pope Leo XIV's stance on immigration?
Chapter 7: What is the current debate among American Catholics?
It is very 2025 for a new Pope to be retweeting criticism of a vice president who's had a number of controversies. What do you think it tells us about Robert Prevost, Pope Leo XIV?
I think that he sees that his office as a bishop and now as Bishop of Rome is a prophetic one. It means that he has the task. I mean, he has to do this with He has to do this with a certain kind of diplomacy. He's also now a head of state, but he has a task of prophetic witness. That prophetic witness is going to speak about a lot of things. He's going to speak about the environment.
He will definitely speak about immigration. He's going to speak about abortion. He's going to speak about a number of things. A lot of times that are going to throw American binaries off. I think we have, keep in mind, he's a profoundly pro-refugee and pro-life pope.
And something I share with him, the sense that the love that we broaden out is meant to go particularly to the smallest and the most forgotten. And I think he sees that, and I think he's going to speak in that prophetic witness, as did the popes before him.
Terrence Sweeney Villanova, thank you so much for taking the time today. We really appreciate it.
Thank you. Very excited. Go Wildcats. Go Pope Leo XIV.
All right, Sean, go Wildcats. What's coming up next?
Okay, next we're going to hear from a religious researcher about a fight the American Catholics are having right now, Noelle.
What's the fight about?
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