The Tucker Carlson Show
Oren Cass: How Trump’s Tariffs Are Reversing the Foreign Policy That Doomed America’s Economy
Fri, 16 May 2025
The point of the postwar global economic order was never to help the United States, says economist Oren Cass, and in the end it didn’t. Thankfully Trump just blew it up. (00:00) Introduction (01:20) What Really Is Conservatism? (05:16) How Did America Lose Focus on Family Values? (11:45) The Societal Problems Dividing Generations (30:09) Are Trump’s Tariffs Working? (46:12) Why Did They Try to Destroy Pat Buchanan? (51:07) The Deep State’s Economic Model Was Really About Foreign Policy Paid partnerships with: ExpressVPN: Go to https://ExpressVPN.com/Tucker and find out how you can get 4 months of ExpressVPN free! Masa Chips: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://masachips.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the main focus of Trump's tariffs?
Chapter 2: How did America lose sight of family values?
Chapter 3: What defines conservatism today?
We should have them, but you should phase them in. There are going to be obstructions. If you are somebody who wants to do business in America, you need to start planning for that. If we want our economy to work well, the way to make a lot of money in America is by making things in America.
It's like the most interesting thing I've heard in a long time. So you're saying that our economic model was not primarily an economic model, was an instrument of foreign policy. It was like the centerpiece of the global order, post-war global order. It wasn't like designed to help the United States as much as it was to preserve stability around the world.
If there's any group to whom we should be focusing resources on, it is families raising kids who are the ones who have been, I think, most squeezed by these economic changes. We will have to pay for that. And the people who will pay for it are the people who are earning a lot of money and don't have kids.
I love that you said that out loud.
Oren Kass, thank you very much for coming. So you've got a book called The New Conservatives, which tries to answer, I think, and we'll speak for you, the question, you know, what is conservatism? What is the Trump movement? Who's on what side? And probably not a better, it's not really an abstract question. debate anymore.
It's like all of a sudden you find yourself, I find myself like on the same side as people with whom I don't think I have anything in common. So what's your definition of conservative?
That's the hardest question in conservatism, I think. And, you know, for me, it comes down to a focus on what actually matters and sort of, you know, all of our policy debates are about the means. What should we do? I think at the end of the day, what defines conservatism and what separates it from progressivism is the definition of the ends. What do we actually think is the good life?
What are we trying to achieve? And I think for conservatives, there's a very deep recognition and belief that the good life is about more than just the individual liberty and autonomy and consumption of stuff.
Obviously, we care about those things too, but that it is much more balanced against a recognition that, you know, the well-being of families and the conditions in which we're raising the next generation and the strength of our communities, ultimately the strength of our nation, the ability to carry forward traditions, that all of those things are equally probably more important
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Chapter 4: How is the deep state influencing economic policy?
Chapter 5: What are the societal problems dividing generations?
So paint the picture of what the end result of a well-organized society is.
Well, I think first and foremost, it is the family that at the end of the day, everything is oriented toward this question of how do we raise a next generation that is able to do what we have done, hopefully more than we have done, to enjoy what we have enjoyed, hopefully more than we have enjoyed. And that is a sort of fundamental obligation that we all have.
It's not a choice, a consumption choice, right? Some people go to Greece, some people raise the next generation. I mean, as a descriptive matter, it is true. But as a normative matter, as a question of should… That is what should happen and that is what needs to happen. And so the question is, well, okay, what are the conditions in which that can and will happen?
We need to have the conditions where young people can see a future for themselves, forming families, being self-sufficient, supporting kids, being able to provide them a good environment. They need to be in communities that have not just strong institutions and good schools but also just a basic sense of a common culture and a culture that is going to be a healthy one for kids to grow up.
We obviously, therefore, need an economy that provides those kinds of jobs. There need to be good jobs available to anybody who wants to work and is willing to work hard, regardless of what their particular aptitudes and interests are, regardless of where they live, right? The idea that, well, we'll get more growth if everybody moves to a big city is
is highly corrosive to the idea that we will actually have a world of people raising strong families. And then as you sort of keep zooming out, ultimately you get out to the level of the nation and you recognize that, you know, at the end of the day, you do have to have a country. A country is not just a market, right? or an Olympics team.
It is actually something with an identity within which people owe obligations to each other. And not everybody is raising kids, but if you're not, you have some obligation to the folks who are. You have some obligation to those kids. And as those kids grow up, they will in turn have obligations back to you.
And if you can't maintain that structure, and I think a lot of what you see in the modern West is struggles to maintain that structure, things start to fall apart.
It sounds like socialism, Warren. No, I'm just kidding. It sounds beautiful, actually. And I should say for people who don't, I'm not going to give your home address or anything, but you kind of live that. Personally, you live in a smallish town far from, very far from a city. You have a family. You're involved in the town on like an official level. You are living the life that you describe here.
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Chapter 6: Why was Pat Buchanan targeted?
Chapter 7: Are Trump's tariffs effective?
The entire premise of obligations and duties as opposed to merely rights and privileges is that there are things that you should be doing even if they are not the thing that is the most fun at that moment in time, even if they are not the thing that you personally want to be doing at that moment in time.
Sometimes just because it is the right thing to do and it is something that is important to the well-being of those around you. A lot of times, I think what you find in these moral traditions is that also in the long run, it is good for you, too, that there is a recognition that humans are frail, flawed people.
And simply pursuing what the economist would say is optimizing your well-being at every moment in time leads people to choose all sorts of things that are not actually good for them at all. And, you know, that's what I find fascinating about speaking about these kinds of concepts of obligation and duty in the good life is some people get very skeptical of this.
They're like, oh, yeah, but, you know, no one's going to choose that when they could just have all this other stuff instead. But you step back and you look at all of the available data and you say, no, no, they will actually be happier if they choose all this stuff. Yeah. People who are married are happier. People who have kids are happier.
People later in life who have done these things live fuller lives overall. They also tend to earn more money. They have whatever it is you actually want to achieve in your life. It is almost certainly the case that making these kinds of decisions will be good for you, too. The problem is just that in the moment when you're 23, it's not necessarily a thing that you're going to choose. That's right.
And in a sense, and this goes back to where you started with what is conservatism, it's a recognition that for people to lead good lives and make good decisions, they need to be operating within this structure. They rely on institutions, their own families, ideally an education system, ideally the broader culture,
to shape and form them and help them make these kinds of decisions that will benefit them, they themselves in the long run. We're not just asking for fixed bayonet charges, you know, into machine guns. We're talking about things that will be good for them, will be good for those around them, will be good for their own kids. Yeah.
But that we know are not things that they're just automatically going to choose by themselves. And so just, you know, this is the other thing that you would just like, well, why aren't we doing this? Part of it is people just don't like being constrained. Part of it is we have adopted this sort of what I call market fundamentalism where economists and their way of thinking have –
somehow persuaded a lot of people that no, no, no, just everybody choosing what they think is good for them at every moment with no constraints is actually the way to optimize welfare for themselves, for the nation, for the economy. And that's just not true.
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