The Tucker Carlson Show
Exclusive: Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov Describes the War With the US and How to End It
Thu, 05 Dec 2024
Russia’s longtime foreign minister describes the war with the United States and how to end it. (00:00) Is the US at War With Russia? (12:56) Russia’s Message to the West Through Hypersonic Weapons (17:47) Is There Conversation Happening Between Russia and the US? (23:18) How Many Have Died in the Ukraine/Russia War? (28:21) What Would It Take To End the War? (36:11) What Happened to Alexei Navalny? (39:45) Boris Johnson Wants the War to Continue (45:43) Sanctions on Russia (56:31) The Chinese/Russian Alliance (1:02:18) Who Is Making Foreign Policy Decisions in the US? (1:05:05) Biden Pushes the US Toward Nuclear War Before Trump Takes Office (1:08:52) What’s Happening in Syria? (1:13:08) Lavrov’s Thoughts on Trump Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Is the US at War With Russia?
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In the week since we left Russia, Moscow, where we are now, in February after interviewing Vladimir Putin, we've watched from the United States as the Biden administration has driven the US ever closer to a nuclear conflict with Russia, the country that possesses the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
It has accelerated ever since, and it's reached its apogee so far in the weeks after Trump's election. He's now the president-elect. In that time, just a few weeks ago, the Biden administration, American military personnel launched missiles into mainland Russia and killed at least a dozen Russian soldiers.
So we are, unbeknownst to most Americans, in a hot war with Russia, an undeclared war, a war you did not vote for and that most Americans don't want, but it is ongoing. And because of that war, because of the fact that the US military is killing Russians in Russia right now, we are closer to nuclear war than at any time in history, far closer than we were during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
That would mean the elimination of Russia, the United States, and most of the rest of the world. We felt there must be someone behind the scenes in Washington working to make sure that this conflict doesn't become a nuclear holocaust. But we found out that no, in fact, there is nobody. Tony Blinken, the current Secretary of State, cut off all contact between the U.S. and Russian governments.
There is no back channel. There is no conversation. There hasn't been for more than two years. That's shocking. Meanwhile, most Americans have no access to any perspective other than that granted to them by NBC News and The New York Times. They don't know how close we are. They don't know the Russian perspective.
We've been trying for over a year to get that perspective out to American news consumers. We've also tried for over a year to get an interview with Zelensky, the president of Ukraine. We've attacked that from a bunch of different angles. We've spoken to a lot of different people around him, had dinner with them. We've been in talks continuously. And those efforts have been thwarted by the U.S.
government. The American embassy in Kiev, which our tax dollars pay for, told the Zelenskyy government, no, you may not do the interview. You can talk to CNN. You can't talk to us. So we've been unable to speak to him. So we came back to Moscow yesterday to interview the foreign minister of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, the longest serving foreign minister in the world.
been a part of this government for 25 years, he's been in the diplomatic corps for over 40, and ask him, where exactly are we? Are we headed toward an unprecedented conflict between Russia and the United States? Is there any way to peel Russia back from the East, from the sphere of China, back in to the West? Is that alliance permanent?
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Chapter 2: What Message is Russia Sending with Hypersonic Weapons?
But the United States is funding a conflict that you're involved in, of course, and now is allowing attacks on Russia itself. So that doesn't constitute war?
Well, we officially are not at war, but what is going on in Ukraine uh is the some people call it hybrid war i would call it hybrid war as well but it is obvious that the ukrainians would not be able to do what they're doing with long-range modern weapons without direct participation of the american servicemen and this is this is This is dangerous, no doubt about this.
We don't want to aggravate the situation. But since ATAKOMs and other long-range weapons are being used against mainland Russia, as it were, we are sending signals. And we hope that the last one a couple of weeks ago, the signal with the new weapon system called Arechnik, was taken seriously.
However, we also know that some officials in the Pentagon and in other places, including NATO, they started saying in the last few days something like, well, NATO is a defensive alliance, but sometimes you can strike first because the attack is the best defense. Some others in Stratcom, I think, is his name, representative of STRATCOM, he said something which allows for
an eventuality of exchange of limited nuclear strikes. And this kind of threats are really worrying, because if they are following the logic which some Westerners have been pronouncing lately, that, well, don't believe that Russia has red lines, they announce their red lines, these red lines are being moved again and again and again, this is a very serious mistake.
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Chapter 3: Are There Any Conversations Happening Between Russia and the US?
That's what I would like to say in response to this question. It is not us who started the war. Putin repeatedly said that we started the operation in order to end the war, which Kyiv regime was conducting against its own people in the parts of Donbas. And just in his latest statement, the president
clearly indicated that we are ready for any eventuality, but we strongly prefer peaceful solution through negotiations on the basis of respecting legitimate security interests of Russia and on the basis of respecting the people who live in Ukraine.
who still live in Ukraine, being Russians, and their basic human rights, language rights, religious rights have been exterminated by a series of legislation passed by the Ukrainian parliament, and they started long before the special military operation.
In 2017, legislation was passed prohibiting Russian education in Russian, prohibiting Russian media operating in Ukraine, then prohibiting Ukrainian media working in Russian language. And the latest, of course, there were also steps to cancel any cultural events in Russian. Russian books were thrown out of libraries. exterminated.
And the latest was the law prohibiting canonic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church. And you know, it's very interesting when people in the West say we want this conflict to be resolved on the basis of the UN Charter and respect for territorial integrity of Ukraine, Russia must withdraw. The Secretary General of the United Nations says similar things.
Recently, his representative repeated that the conflict must be resolved on the basis of international law, UN Charter, General Assembly resolutions, while respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine. It's a misnomer because if you want to respect the United Nations Charter, you have to respect it in its entirety.
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Chapter 4: How Many Have Died in the Ukraine/Russia War?
And the United Nations Charter, among other things, says that all countries must respect equality of states and the right of people for self-determination. And they also mentioned the United Nations General Assembly resolutions.
And this is clear that what they mean is the series of resolutions which they passed after the beginning of the special military operation and which demand condemnation of Russia. Russia get out of Ukraine territory in 1991 borders. But there are other United Nations General Assembly resolutions which were not voted, but which were consensual.
And among them is a declaration on principles of relations between states on the basis of the Charter. And it clearly says, by consensus, Everybody must respect territorial integrity of states whose governments respect the right of people for self-determination, and because of that, represent the entire population living on a given territory.
To argue that the people who came to power through military coup d'etat in February 2014 represented Crimeans or the citizens of eastern and southern Ukraine is absolutely useless. It is obvious that Crimeans rejected the coup. They said, leave us alone. We don't want to have anything with you. So did Donbas. Crimeans held referendum. And they rejoined Russia.
Donbas was declared by the putschists who came to power a terrorist group. They were shelled, attacked by artillery. The war started, which was stopped in February 2015. And the Minsk agreements were signed, and we were very sincerely interested in closing this drama by seeing Minsk agreements implemented fully.
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Chapter 5: What Would It Take To End the War?
It was sabotaged by the government, which was established after the coup d'etat in Ukraine. There was a demand that they enter into a direct dialogue with the people who did not accept the coup. There was a demand that they promote economic relations with that part of Ukraine. And so on and so forth. None of this was done. The people in Kyiv were saying we would never talk to them directly.
And this is in spite of the fact that the demand to talk to them directly was endorsed by the Security Council. And they said they are terrorists, we would be, you know, fighting them and they would be dying in cellars because we are stronger. Had the coup
in February 2014, had it not happened and had the deal which was reached the day before between the then president and the opposition implemented, Ukraine would have stayed one piece by now with Crimea in it. It's absolutely clear. They did not deliver on the deal. Instead, they staged the coup.
The deal, by the way, provided for creation of a government of national unity in February 2014 and holding early elections, which the then president would have lost. Everybody knew that. But they were impatient, and they took the government buildings next morning. They went to this Maidan Square and announced that they created the government of the winners.
Compare the government of national unity to prepare for elections and the government of the winners. How can the people whom they, in their view, defeated, how can they pretend that they respect the authorities in Kyiv?
You know, the right for self-determination is the international legal basis for decolonization process, which took place in Africa on the basis of this charter principle, right for self-determination. The people in the colonies, they never treated the colonial powers, colonial masters, as somebody who represent them, as somebody whom they want to see in the structures which govern those lands.
By the same token, the people in east and south of Ukraine People in Donbass and Novorossiya, they don't consider the Zelensky regime as something which represents their interests. How can they? When their culture, their language, their traditions, their religion, all this was prohibited.
Yes.
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Chapter 6: What Happened to Alexei Navalny?
And the last point is that if we speak about the UN Charter, resolutions, international law, the very first article of the UN Charter, which the West never, never recalls in the Ukrainian context, says respect human rights of everybody, irrespective of race, gender, language or religion.
Take any conflict, the United States, UK, Brussels, they would interfere saying, oh, human rights have been grossly violated. We must restore the human rights in such and such territory. On Ukraine, never, ever they mumbled the words human rights, seeing these human rights for the Russian and Russian-speaking population being totally exterminated by law.
So when people say, let's resolve the conflict on the basis of the Chata, yes. But don't forget that the Charter is not only about territorial integrity, and territorial integrity must be respected only if the governments are legitimate and if they respect the right of their own people.
I want to go back to what you said a moment ago about the introduction or the unveiling of the hypersonic weapon system that you said was a signal to the West. What signal exactly? I think many Americans are not even aware that this happened. What message were you sending by showing it to the world?
Well, the message is that you, I mean you, the United States, and the allies of the United States who also provide this long-range weapons to the Kyiv regime, they must understand that we would be ready to use any means not to allow them to succeed in what they call strategic defeat of Russia. They fight for keeping the hegemony over the world on any country, any region, any continent.
We fight for our legitimate security interests. They say, for example, 1991 borders. Lindsey Graham, who visited some time ago Zelensky for another talk, he bluntly, in presence of Zelensky, I think, said that Ukraine is very rich with rare earth metals, and we cannot leave this richness to the Russians. We must take it. We fight, so they fight for
the regime which is ready to sell or to give to the West all the natural and human resources. We fight for the people who have been living on these lands, whose ancestors were actually developing those lands, building cities, building factories for centuries and centuries. We care about people, not about
natural resources which somebody in the United States would like to keep and to have Ukrainians just as servants sitting on these natural resources. So the message which we wanted to sell by testing in real action this hypersonic system is that we will we will be ready to do anything to defend our legitimate interests.
We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take nuclear character. Our military doctrine says that the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war. And it was us, by the way, who initiated
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Chapter 7: What Are the Impacts of Sanctions on Russia?
January 2022, the message, the joint statement by the leaders of the five permanent members of the Security Council saying that we will do anything to avoid confrontation between us, acknowledging and respecting each other's security interests and concerns. This was our initiative. And the security interests of Russia,
were totally ignored when they rejected, about the same time, when they rejected the proposal to conclude a treaty on security guarantees for Russia, for Ukraine, in the context of coexistence and in the context when Ukraine would not be ever member of NATO or any other military bloc. These security interests of Russia were presented to the West, to NATO and to the United States in December 2021.
We discussed them several times, including during my meeting with Tony Blinken in Geneva in January, late January 2022. And this was rejected. So we would certainly like to avoid any misunderstanding.
And since the people, some people in Washington and some people in London, in Brussels, seem to be not very capable to understand, we will send additional messages if they don't draw necessary conclusions.
The fact that we're having a conversation about a potential nuclear exchange and it's real is remarkable, not something I thought I'd ever see. And it raises the question, how much What kind of back channel dialogue is there between Russia and the United States? Has there been for the last two and a half years? Is there any conversation ongoing?
There are several channels, but mostly on exchange of people who serve terms in Russia and in the United States. There were several swaps. There are also channels which are not advertised or publicized. But basically, the Americans sent through these channels the same message which they sent publicly. You have to stop.
You have to accept the way which will be based on the Ukrainian needs and Ukrainian position. They support this absolutely pointless peace formula by Zelensky, which was auditioned recently by Victory Plan. They held several series of meetings, Copenhagen format, Burgenstock, what have you.
And they brag that next year, first half of next year, they will convene another conference and they will graciously invite Russia that time. And then Russia would be presented an ultimatum. All this is seriously repeated through various confidential channels. Now we hear something different, including Zelenskyy's statements that we can stop now at the line of engagement, line of contact.
Ukrainian government will be admitted to NATO, but NATO guarantees at this stage would cover only the territory controlled by the government, and the rest would be subject to negotiations. But the end result of these negotiations must be total withdrawal of Russia from Russian soil, basically.
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Chapter 8: What is the Role of the Chinese/Russian Alliance?
No, no, no. We have this channel, which is automatically engaged. when ballistic missile launch is taking place. As regards this Arechnik hypersonic ballistic missile, mid-range ballistic missile, 30 minutes in advance, the system sent the message to the United States and they knew that this was the case and that they don't mistake it for anything bigger and real dangerous.
I think the system sounds very dangerous.
Well, it was a test launch, you know.
Yes. Oh, you're speaking of the test. Okay. But I just wonder how worried you are that, considering there doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation between the two countries, both sides are speaking about exterminating the other's populations, that this could somehow get out of control in a very short period and no one could stop it. It seems incredibly reckless.
No, we are not talking about exterminating anybody's population. We did not start this war. We have been for years and years and years sending warnings that pushing NATO closer and closer to our borders is going to create a problem. In 2007, Putin started to explain to the people who seemed to be overtaken by the end of history and being dominant, no challenge, and so on and so forth.
And of course, when the coup took place, the Americans did not hide that they were behind it. the conversation between Victoria Nuland and the then American ambassador in Kyiv when they discuss personalities to be included in the new government after the coup. The figure of five billion bucks spent on Ukraine
After independence was mentioned as the guarantee that everything would be like the Americans want. So we don't have any intention to exterminate Ukrainian people. They are brothers and sisters to the Russian people.
How many have died so far, do you think, on both sides?
It is not disclosed by Ukrainians. Zelensky was saying that it is much less than 80,000 persons on the Ukrainian side. But there is one very, very reliable figure in Palestine. during one year after the Israelis started the operation in response to this terrorist attack, which we condemned.
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