Heather Campbell, Nonprofit Partner and Executive Recruiter with ThinkingAhead Executive Search, breaks down her process for prepping and debriefing clients and candidates, including the STAR method, not forgetting to lean into your results, the importance of phoning a friend, and more.Discover what sets ThinkingAhead apart, hear stories from recruiters, and browse opportunities by clicking here.
Hello and welcome to the Talent Trade. This is Stephanie Moss with Thinking Ahead Executive Search. Super excited to be here today with one of our rock stars from the nonprofit team, Heather Campbell. Heather, welcome. Thank you. Go ahead and tell us a little bit about you and anything you think our listeners would want to know.
My name's Heather Campbell. I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, born and raised Minnesotan. I've been with Thinking Ahead for a little over five years now, started in April of 2019. I'm on the nonprofit team, and I focus on working with nonprofits that really work with human rights, equity, and equality, as well as the social impact spaces.
Well, welcome. We're super excited to have you here. And another thing that I'm super excited about is kind of your topic. I remember many years ago learning from kind of one of Thinking Ahead's gurus and him saying at one point that at the end of the day, if a search is meant to come together, it will with or without us.
And he shared that to kind of take the pressure off, especially because when he shared it with me, quite frankly, I was rather new to the practice.
But at the same time, he also said, but hey, when you have opportunity to earn your keep in a search, kind of take it serious and make sure that you really are, if you're going to be a part of it, make sure you really are earning your keep as a facilitator of that process. And that's something I think that we're going to talk a lot about today with you.
And I love that. I think that prepping and debriefing the candidates and the clients during this part of the process, they probably do great without us. But at the same time, it's that like additional sort of icing on the cake to make sure stuff goes really well. I'm also a big process driven person. So if this is something I could manage in that process, I love it.
And, you know, it's funny, too, because through the years, the folks that we represent, both on the client side and the candidate side, they're not professional interviewers.
So I think this is an area where in terms of prepping and debriefing them, we have a huge opportunity to make a difference because oftentimes people are incredible what they do, but they don't know how to advocate for themselves. They don't, you know, hey, it's been five years since I interviewed last or whatever. I'm usually the one doing the interviewing.
So I think this is a super valuable topic. So jump right in, walk us through your philosophy a little bit, and then just walk us through how you do what you do.
And so from a philosophy standpoint, prepping and debriefing is just part of our process in general, right? So it's not necessarily... this big new thing or something that I'm sure a lot of search firms do, but I think that we do it really, really well. And I enjoy it.
It's actually my favorite part of my job because I get to build stronger relationships with both the client, the hiring manager, maybe some folks I haven't met along the way in the process. as well as then those candidates that obviously there's only one person that typically gets the job.
You get to still build relationships with four or five, six other people that you never know throughout your career you may bump into again. So I was going to kind of go over... break it down. What do I do with the clients? And then break it down and probably a little bit longer, what do I do with the candidates as far as the prep goes?
Can we just stop there for a second? Because I want to just spend a minute on the value that you think this brings from a holistic perspective. This was something I was taught very early on in my search career at Thinking Ahead was to prep the clients. And yet, as I've been out networking with other recruiters, attending recruiter events, I've
This is a topic that I'm constantly surprised at how many folks don't do this. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, kind of why you're dogged about making this a part of your process.
It's a super important piece of the process so that, again, I can kind of know what's going on and manage how they're going to work. But Again, to your point, oftentimes they're great at what they do, but they are not professional interviewers.
And so being able to make sure that they know what questions they're going to ask and how to sort of handle themselves in that interview, because frankly, just as much as they are interviewing the candidates, you know, those candidates are interviewing them as well to make sure that this is a good fit.
So being able to just talk them through logistics, but also how to be in the interview and how to sort of woo the candidates to the opportunity as well. Make sure that they have a good experience. And then I think from an equity perspective, it's really important that every candidate is having a similar experience and being able to have them experience.
present themselves in a way that, you know, the clients can can see that in a very similar fashion, like they're being able to see every candidate in the same light in the same way to be able to evaluate people from an equity perspective.
Do you ever get pushback from clients? How do you set it up with the clients that this is going to be a part of what you do?
Definitely early on when we have our kickoff call, we talk through the whole process, everything that I'm going to be doing and then everything that I have as far as an expectation from them. I'm getting some bandwidth off their plate by probably helping to manage schedules and getting holds on their calendars. So that gets a little buy-in because they're like, oh, this makes things easy.
But then a part of that scheduling of interviews, I just kind of assume that we're going to also schedule the prep call before all those interviews happen. So I think I start early with talking through that. Oftentimes, buy-in isn't too difficult, but they may need like I'll tailor the amount of prep that I do based on how much they do.
So if the interview is with HR first off, they've got their standard list of questions. There's maybe a little bit less that I have to do.
But then oftentimes we'll get a panel involved and there'll be three or four people from the organization that they value this idea of having an interview guide in front of them, being assigned questions and going through those together to say, who's going to say what? And does this question make like sound like you? Is it something that's kind of authentic to what you will want to say?
And so I would say it's pretty rare that we get any sort of feedback. We do get a lot of feedback on the back end. In fact, just recently, I had a whole group of a panel say this was the most organized, focused process we've ever had because of just how detailed you were.
Super cool. And then just for those of us that maybe want to try this for the first time, help alleviate some fear for us. If you do get pushback saying, hey, we're good. We don't need that. Thanks. I've held interviews before. How do you handle clients that maybe don't buy in right away or don't respond positively to your assumption of, hey, we're going to do a client prep here?
I think I would suggest that we try it. I think equity, there's a lot of organizations that are starting to, you know, sort of start a journey from a diversity, equity and inclusion standpoint. And oftentimes they don't understand that that can start all the way at the interview process, not just when they've onboarded. somebody to make sure that they have a good experience with an organization.
It is essential that everybody is being asked the same questions and that an organization is treating folks with dignity and respect through that instead of just throwing them into an interview process that probably doesn't look very good.
And so I think being able to educate them on me supporting that part of the process typically gets people to sort of say, okay, yeah, at least we'll meet with you for a half hour. Yeah.
And if I heard you right, it sounds like the way you position it is really that this is in their best interest. But I even sometimes throw in that language of like from a legal standpoint, I want to set this up to protect you. But again, the kudos to you is setting it up in a way that you don't get a lot of pushback. Okay, so then you get them on there. You're on your schedule.
Walk us through what does this sound like?
Yeah, with the client prep, it's pretty basic. Again, we talk about the scheduling of the interviews and put together this interview guide that gets sent over to them a few days before the prep so that everybody involved, whether it's one person or four or five in a panel, gets to see it. So everybody involved gets to have a little bit of input. So we start off first, I talk about logistics.
Everybody got the calendar invites. What are the goals of the interview? Again, it is to evaluate a candidate, but it's also to show... the candidate a really good experience because they are ultimately evaluating anybody involved in the interview process as well.
We talk about the fact that salary will not be discussed in this part of the interview and the importance of that because that, again, is handled through me. And it's something that just doesn't need to muddy the waters or make anything kind of feel
off when you're talking through those questions um and then we do schedule a debrief afterwards so after they've interviewed the candidates that are involved in this part i want to get them all on the phone together again for even at 30 minutes or so to just talk about how did it go um
Aside from that, though, we are having them fill out evaluation forms, either in a matrix form or, you know, like a Google form so that they can individually share feedback. And then I get that feedback. But then I also want to hear it kind of from their mouth together later. So I get kind of two sides to a really good deep feedback point from an individual perspective and then kind of as a group.
So the client prep is pretty easy and very process-driven. Now the candidate prep, I think there's a little bit more emotion and sort of a deeper feel to how I handle that. As I said, prepping and debriefing with candidates is actually probably my favorite part of the job. Again, it's something that I have set the tone for this when I started the relationship with the candidate.
Once I've started vetting them and have had multiple conversations with them, I submitted them to the client. Ultimately, they were asked to have an interview. I have told them that if they get that interview, they will be prepping and debriefing with me all the way through the whole process.
So again, kind of trying to build that bond and setting up that expectation that, hey, we're going to talk a lot. Yeah. And being able to kind of let them know that they will have to share how things went, both from a logistics standpoint, from an emotional standpoint, and all those other elements, which I think is really key to part of that process.
So I'll usually schedule a candidate prep, you know, 24 to 48 hours before that candidate has their interview. Before the prep call, I'll send them an email with things like the names of the people that they'll be meeting with, what their titles are, usually a link to their LinkedIn account.
And then we have several good documents that we kind of say take it or leave it, but there's a lot of value in being able to read these and use and to support yourself through this. So it's hitting the target during a personal interview, answering the tell me about yourself question. And then we've got a link regarding the STAR method and how to use this technique to ace the next job interview.
I think a lot of times people, when they answer questions, especially behavioral questions, I talk a lot about the situation, the task that they had, the actions that they took, but they sometimes forget to really like full circle it and bring in the results. What happened at the end and after all of the work that you did, what were the results?
And so that document can be really helpful for folks to sort of review and look through. Again, these preps give me face-to-face time and just build a better relationship and bond with these folks. Ultimately, I want them to trust me through the process because if we get to a finish line... There's a lot of things that we cover that I need them to share and talk me through.
So again, it's just another face-to-face meeting with them that I feel is really important. Again, every candidate usually goes through the same type of prep. We go through the same information. And I tell them that you probably did great in this interview, but it's helping you put your best foot forward. And so again, take or leave the information that I share with you here.
So when I get them on a prep call, the first question I ask is, has anything changed since we last talked? I'm listening for, are they in other interview processes? Has their enthusiasm level gotten higher or lower at this point in the process? How much research have they done? Just how are they feeling in general? Are they somebody who typically kind of is more relaxed?
Are they somebody who gets really anxious before an interview? Yeah. trying to kind of get in their head a little bit around that. And it also lets me sort of see how much prep work they've actually done so far and how much I need to kind of push them to continue to do more research or look up more stuff or, you know, do you know the names of the people and their titles?
Have you looked at where they went to school? Things like that. We'll go through logistics next. So whether it's virtual or in person, so the who, where, when, how, what's the agenda, you know, all those kinds of things. They're just really aware of what's happening. And then something that I suggest that they do is schedule a call with a friend or family member, somebody they trust.
30 minutes before an interview, somebody that can champion them and give them just some love before their interview. Sometimes it's not necessary if the person's a little bit more relaxed, but if there's any ounce of anxiousness, it's a fun suggestion to just say, hey, Grab a friend and tell them to call you or you call them 30 minutes before and say, you've got this.
That or, you know, I think a lot of times in Thinking Ahead, we talk about, you know, like the power pose or standing in front of the mirror and saying, you've got this, things like that. So I encourage people to do that before and plan it before the interview. So after we've gone through logistics, we talk about the people they'll be meeting with. So what's their background?
What's their personality? What's their style? How do they interview? If you're the first person in an interview versus maybe the fifth person to go through an interview, I may know a little less because I haven't gotten feedback from other candidates about how the interview process went. But it's still good.
I've now talked with those clients and the folks that they'll be meeting with because I did the client prep. So I've got a little bit more of an understanding on who's going to be somebody that's going to have more energy, who's going to be somebody that maybe asks more questions, is the talkative one, the facilitator, things like that. So I'll be able to just go through that.
And I encourage people, I want them to be authentic in themselves in an interview process because that's going to be how they show up for work every day. But I think it's also super important to balance and match sort of the level of energy that the interviewees are giving off. And, you know, if they're kind of calm, cool, collected, it's probably more so how you should be.
But if you've got someone who's high energy, you know, lean into that and also sort of match that energy. So again, authenticity is really important, but I think there's also something to be said about just kind of like a self-aware understanding of who you're with. Okay, the interview questions, you know, what can be expected? What do they need to prepare for?
I don't actually give them the exact questions in the list of things that they're going to say. But we'll talk about the essence of the question and sort of why are they asking it. This is the question that, you know, you're going to be having to talk about ABC topic. And this is why they want to get a better understanding of your ability to do this.
This isn't done to give the candidates the answers, but it allows them to just prepare and put their best foot forward. I have a personal belief that we live in a culture that glorifies fast-paced and on-the-spot decision-making, which is necessary. I realize that, but I think there's also a lot of value and strength in allowing people to process and plan better.
We talk about closing the interview. So I'll ask them to wrap up the interview. Usually they've asked their questions of the client. But before they go, I encourage everybody to sort of say some sort of version of this phrase. Thank them, comment on something that you learned or something that you're grateful for.
And then say some version of, before I go, are there any last minute hesitations, reservations, or concerns you have about my candidacy? I don't want them to say, do you have any last minute questions? It's reservations, hesitations, or concerns. I feel that this is so important because...
they do have something, they'll probably share it with you and you now have an opportunity to address it on the spot. The last thing I want is for the client to say, well, they didn't really talk about their experience doing this, but they never asked. They never got the opportunity to actually share a little bit more about that.
And if it is something that maybe it's a weakness that you do have, you still can address it and maybe find something that is a skill set that's very similar or you're able to sort of just know where they feel that you have something that doesn't meet the needs. And again, it's just an opportunity to address it. Candid information is really, really important.
I think it's a bold question and allows people just some strength at the end to sort of close it up on their terms. Then we will schedule a debrief with the candidate as well. So I want to talk with them ideally an hour after their interview, sometime within that hour or just immediately after that. And so we schedule that for just a 15-minute thing. Hey, your interview's over. Give me a call.
Let's talk about how it went. Questions that I typically ask are logistics, like was everybody on time? Was there any tech issues? How did it go? Things like that. And then I'll ask, tell me very broadly, like how do you feel that it went? And so I'm listening for things like, again, enhanced enthusiasm. Anything that they feel they maybe didn't do so well?
We'll talk about what did they learn from the interview? Were there questions that you told me you wanted to ask? Did you get to ask those? And was there additional information that you were able to hear and learn based on how you're feeling so far? Do you feel like this is a job that you can handle as well as is this something that's going to challenge you enough?
So where do they kind of land with that based on what they learned about the job? How is the synergy with the people that you talk to, especially if this is somebody that they would be reporting to or a peer? And we'll just kind of go through those questions and again, kind of just letting them download on how it went. I asked them about that question, how they closed the interview.
A, did they ask it? B, did they have any sort of responses? And then were they able to overcome anything? We next then coach them to, of course, write a thank you note. But what I would say is based on this debriefing with me, is there anything that you and I just talked about that you could add and include into a thank you note?
Maybe it's something that you wish you would have clarified or something you were really grateful that you learned or something that you found as a connection between that candidate or that client and yourself. Those are the things to add into a thank you note. I feel that these are super important. I want you to make it less generic and more personal.
So again, anything that you may have connected on. I have had many clients tell me that a good thank you note has had a candidate rise above others because of the effort that was put into a good thank you note. No need to do anything to the mail anymore. A virtual note is just fine. I get asked that question a lot too.
You'll probably know if you made it or not sooner than a note would get to them in the mail. And then the last part of the debrief that I have is just be really honest about when I'm going to be able to have feedback. I never want to overpromise a timeframe that I will be able to share news with them. And regardless of the decision, I will let them know.
And that was the client was able to offer me about how the interview went.
Wow. So now let's talk for just a second about the client debrief. Again, I think this is a part of it that's like a no brainer, but because so many people just take it for granted, it doesn't end up adding anything to the process. So walk us through your client debrief.
So, again, this is something that we scheduled, you know, after all of the interviews for that round. You know, so you've got a round one interview. Anybody that was involved with that will schedule that whether it's one person or five. And we typically go through each candidate separately, just kind of letting them share how do they feel like it went with, you know, John, Sarah, Jim.
I also share with them the feedback. So I've had that conversation with the candidate about, you know, things that they talked about, things they enjoyed. It may be some like starstruck pieces that happened.
I'll share that first so that they can kind of, usually it's good stuff because most often the candidates feel like, you know, it went well, but they'll resonate with things that maybe were said there, which I feel like kind of helps them. them either remember some parts of those interviews that happened and also find like a connection with that person. Like, oh yeah, we did talk about that.
Or, oh yeah, she did share that. So I think that that part is really important to just be candid. We'll go through each candidate and let everybody just sort of share. Sometimes people disagree on stuff, which is really interesting, but I try to just really ask probing questions versus trying to input anything about my experience with the candidate. Because, you know, we're all human.
Sometimes I, you know, have favorites and everything. I don't want to involve myself in that part of the process at all. I want them to hear from each other about how it went and how it happened. It also depends on is this a panel of peers or is this an executive leadership team versus the hiring manager? And so I try to keep the hiring manager on or record those conversations.
debriefs with the client so that the hiring manager can, whoever the decision maker is about the candidate, I want to make sure that they're able to listen into on how those debriefs went with everybody else involved. But again, on the back end, I've gotten evaluation forms from everybody in real time right after an interview.
But then I typically will either share or talk with the hiring manager, you know, about how those how those went. And, you know, usually it just kind of ends with a, you know, thank you. I really, really appreciate your time, because oftentimes if it isn't the hiring manager, you know, they took time out of their day to make sure that these interviews went.
happen, which I think is really important to value their time as well. And again, I know upfront who is making the decisions. And so if it's a group of folks that did the interview process that are just there to provide a complaint, I'll thank you and move on. And if it is the hiring manager, Our goal is to always have two good candidates at the very end.
And so oftentimes it's a lot of probing and what were the things that were the real strengths or the things that maybe you feel like long-term could be an issue or those kinds of things. So really it's all about just being really intentional about the questions I'm asking them so that they can come to a conclusion for themselves on who the right candidate is.
Candidly listening to you talk, two huge takeaways. Number one, your candidates have got to feel like you are a huge ally and advocate for them. Again, to our point earlier, most folks interviewing is not what they do for a living.
So getting into a situation where you're really preparing them, and I love what you said about the authenticity, you're not preparing them to be a quote unquote candidate. good interviewer, but rather preparing them to put their best foot forward to maximize the time that they spend with folks, knowing that they're covering, you know, thoughts, questions, concerns.
In an hour.
Yeah. Anytime you have to have a meaningful conversation, a prep would be super helpful. That's incredible. And then on the client side, the attention to detail that you provide has got to give them tremendous confidence when it's time for them to make a decision.
Thank you. A search ago that I had this year, I had the candidate that was the number two seat that didn't get the job write Greg, my boss, an email telling him just how important that process of the interview, like the prep and debrief with her was a professional, but how much it supported her.
It was really, really enjoyable to read because it was the person that didn't get the job that felt the need to share. Yeah. Man, what a tribute to you. Okay. Anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure gets on here? I haven't worked for other search firms.
I don't know what this process is for other groups, but I think I believe firmly that Thinking Ahead does this the best. I think that Thinking Ahead really owns this part of the process, values it, takes it very seriously. It isn't just something that's like, oh, we got to make sure this happens.
For myself and I know many others, whether it's a nonprofit team or I'm assuming other groups, there's a lot of care that goes into this because it is what makes our ratios so tight. And it's what makes us be able to say that we get candidates in seats.
Even though, yes, we're finding the great talent, I feel like we're also stewarding a part of the process that just maybe not doesn't get as much attention. Yeah.
I think it's a huge advantage for working with a boutique firm versus, and again, everybody has the right to earn a living however they choose and different models fit different people.
But at thinking ahead, being a boutique firm versus a resume broker or a volume shop, this is an area that we really have an opportunity to make a significant impact, even to your point on the folks who don't get the job.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for your willingness to share this with our listeners. I'm going to encourage if anybody has any additional thoughts or questions or wants to see some of the documentation that Heather sends out, I know she's incredibly approachable. You can find her on LinkedIn, reach out. You can find her through our website, thinkingahead.com. Thank the listeners for being with us.
Thank you, Heather. Thank you for having me.