The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Thu, 22 May 2025
Behind the headlines, hustle, and high valuations…There’s a crisis no one talks about. Join our community of fearless leaders in search of unreasonable outcomes... Want to become a FEARLESS entrepreneur and leader? Go here: https://www.findingpeak.com Watch on YouTube: https://link.ryanhanley.com/youtube In this raw and unfiltered episode, Nick Jonsson—best-selling author and founder of Executives' Global Network—opens up about the silent epidemic plaguing founders and high performers: isolation, burnout, and depression. Nick Jonsson Website: https://www.nickjonsson.com/ Book - Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety & Depression in the Modern Business: https://amzn.to/3FkBLKy We dive deep into: Why success can be the loneliest place on earth The hidden costs of tying your identity to your company Why most leaders don’t ask for help—until it’s too late The cultural stigma around vulnerability (especially for men) How to build your tribe before you hit rock bottom If you’re a founder, executive, or ambitious builder chasing big things—this episode is your reality check. Warning: This one might hit closer to home than you expect. Recommended Tools for Growth OpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opus Riverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riverside Shortform - The World's Best Book Summaries: https://link.ryanhanley.com/shortform Taplio • Grow Your Personal Brand On LinkedIn: https://link.ryanhanley.com/taplio Kit: Email-First Operating System for Creators (formerly ConvertKit): https://link.ryanhanley.com/kit
Chapter 1: What leads to executive loneliness?
I became a very unhealthy person for the simple reason that I wasn't vulnerable. I didn't ask for help when I really needed it.
In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home,
This idea of executive loneliness as it relates to leadership, it's one of the things that It is very tough in my opinion to prepare for, even if people tell you that something or you hear a podcast like the one we're about to do, like it is a very tough emotion or feeling to deal with when you hit a leadership position and you start that loneliness starts to creep in.
Chapter 2: How does isolation affect leadership?
So like one, why, what was your inspiration to address this particular topic? Cause I think it's one that's underserved and I love that you are. And two, like how do you start to get people out of that space?
Yeah, absolutely. So why did I then cover loneliness? First off, I found myself quite lonely and isolated in my career. If you asked me at the time, would I be lonely and isolated? My answer would be no. But looking back at my corporate career, why did I resign in the end? Why did I burn out in the corporate career? It was because I isolated myself.
I was just too scared to be open, to be vulnerable, to ask for help. I was at the time a general manager of leading 72 hospitals and clinics in Indonesia, Jakarta. I wanted the next role. And for that, I tried to set myself up for success. I was not ready to talk. That left me lonely and isolated.
As I then started to research the subject and I interviewed other senior executives, I found that about 30% of the senior executives I interviewed in Southeast Asia also admitted that they would suffer from loneliness and isolation, either currently or have done in the past. So that tells us that this is a big problem.
Do you think that problem... is any more expansive in the Western world or maybe Western world isn't even the right way to put it. It's more like the States because I'll tell you, man, like here, the culture here, this hustle porn has really been this toxic, pervasive idea that is, that has gotten in and executives feel like if they're not working right, they're losing.
And so they start carving out time for personal fitness, for time with family, for time to just decompress. And they're just on and on. And I feel like and at least when I felt the loneliness is often when I feel this pressure to work even more. It's like it expands and really presses that loneliness quite a bit. Or is this something that's pretty equally spread out throughout the world?
I think you could be right. It could be even stronger and even more challenging in the US. But already what I saw was we live in this world where we elbow our way up the top to that corporate ladder only to find ourselves at the top like how I did. And then I question it. I question myself. Why did I do this? I pushed myself so hard to get here. To get here for what?
And that was the beginning of my fall, as it happens with many others, because we define ourselves in this work. We strive so hard. And then if we lose that, even by ourselves, by realizing this is not the right mountain I climbed, or that the company go through acquisition, or they lay us off, and then we lose our identity with that.
Do you think there is a difference in the amount of loneliness or how people experience it between an entrepreneurial journey and a journey inside of a large corporation?
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Chapter 3: Why do entrepreneurs struggle with vulnerability?
This sense that if I need to ask Nick for help on how I better position my keynote, then somehow I'm not good enough, right? Every single, and I've done 500 plus interviews on this show, right? Every successful person, yourself included, you just said it, right? Myself included. I have people that I call when I get stuck and I don't even question it. I'm just like, this isn't working.
I can't figure this out. For whatever reason, I'm maybe confused or whatever models I've tried to run a decision through. Just it's not clicking. And then you have a person you call. And but for a lot of people, that feels like maybe weakness to a certain extent. And that's, I think, where this vulnerability comes in.
How do you coach or teach and you're actually doing it today and I appreciate you taking the time today being that you have an engagement going on. How do you start to help people embrace vulnerability in a way that doesn't make them feel weak or shameful or doubtful of themselves?
Yeah, what I do when I do my workshops and keynotes, I share my story, the Nick who wasn't vulnerable. And that was not pretty. I actually went down the rabbit hole myself by not being vulnerable. And that was led to my corporate career and the crash of it. I even fell over to alcoholism for some time. I gained about 50, 60 pounds.
I became a very unhealthy person for the simple reason that I wasn't vulnerable. I didn't ask for help when I really needed it. That's about seven, eight years ago now. I rebuilt myself and I see Asking for help is my greatest strength today. I have mapped out people in all different areas who can mentor me. Also, I'm about paying it forward and giving it back at the same time.
And indeed, that was part of my training today. And one book that helped me that I read and that I applied and recommended to the audience today is by author Andy Lopata. He wrote a book called Just Ask. And he's really talking about this. How can you make
asking for help your greatest strength and by making it simple but also in his research he found that actually people are terrified of asking for help and he's even wrote an earlier book that was called and death came third and that's talking about basically serving people and they found The death wasn't as scary as walking into a room full of strangers and talking to them.
So I think we just have that fear, that blockage. And that is about them practicing the vulnerability muscle. And we can do that in safe spaces and conversations by becoming more open, more vulnerable. And we can also prepare ourselves, as Andy will talk about in his books. If you're going to an event, you're going to that event. Think, what is it I want to get out of this?
Which are the people I want to meet? Or even script a few questions before. Have a note in your pocket and just stick to the script. This is what I want to ask. And then walk around and have meaningful conversations. And then things get a lot easier.
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Chapter 4: What is the role of mentorship in overcoming challenges?
I get it, you're maybe a little nervous or whatever, but just write it down. It actually means more to me, and I'm sure you might be the same or if not, but it means more to me that you took the time to write a question down and think about that question. All I really want to know when someone asks me a question is that if I give you my best guidance on that question,
there's a good chance you're going to take action on it. That's all I want to know because there's nothing worse than someone asks you a question and you give them an answer and you can tell almost immediately they're never going to take action, right? You're almost like, ugh. You feel like you've wasted your time. But if you get the impression from someone that,
they're actually going to listen to your advice. And it doesn't mean they have to agree or whatever, but that they could take action. Man, you'll give so much of your free time away to try to help people.
No, I fully agree with you. I offer my time quite frequently, but it's very few who pick it up, even though you serve it on a silver plate, simply because maybe the fear of being rejected or whatever it is. But if someone indeed approach, I'm also there for interns and people who are reaching out.
So, yeah, I think the clear message here to anyone, think about who you need to reach out to and take that call or walk up to people and ask the right question. Be prepared. Yeah.
How do you find the harmony between being strong, direct, driven, vision-focused leader with the necessary vulnerability that you need to have? I've been part of a couple organizations earlier in my career where the leader was was almost like too vulnerable.
It was like constantly about what's not working and his issues and you're just like, I'm losing faith that you're the guy that's gonna take us to the promised land, right? You can almost take it too far. So how do you find that harmony between those two kind of sides of what you need to be as a leader?
Yeah, we got to be so careful from not oversharing and going into the office and oversharing everything. We have to decide which are going to be your safe spaces. And if it's in the workplace and you are the senior leader there, there might be that you don't have a safe space there where you can do that.
It might have to be externally, it can be coaches, mentors, it can be therapists, counselors, it can be anything from a 12-step program. If you have a challenge, you have an addiction, you have something, go and find your tribe, the people who will understand your problem, who can talk your language, go there. But of course, it's good if we can have some friends.
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Chapter 5: How can vulnerability be a strength?
as a place that you couldn't trust people but looking back in hindsight it was perhaps that i couldn't trust myself i was just immature the self-respect was there not there the self-love was not there that's something that only came after i went through my crisis i had my 40 years crisis basically for a couple of years after that i found myself but why do we have to go through something so dramatic to really hit what i did my rock bottom and then build myself back up why couldn't i have done that without
this journey, I wasn't vulnerable before. I was not ready for it. And I remember even in my office, downstairs was one of the 12-step programs for alcoholics. And I remember looking at that meeting room and thinking, poor buggers who have to go there, only to find myself in that chair a couple of years later on asking for help, you know?
Yeah, I love this idea. And guys, I'm going to find the link to the book, Just Ask, because you've Mentioned it a couple times, and I think that's a really wonderful point that you just made, right? Like, that you were judgy of this group, right?
You were judgmental of this group before, and then when you needed it, all of a sudden, you were, like, looking around going, wait a minute, I'm one of these guys. And we all are to some extent. This idea, it's almost, and I hate to say, what's going to come out of my face next is not maybe the best way to frame it, but it's...
It's almost like, even if you don't maybe buy into exactly what we're saying, maybe you are still that hard-headed, I'm the best, listen to me, my least favorite thing that a leader ever says is, I pay you, just do your fucking job kind of thing. It just, that's like soul-killing to me because it just destroys culture.
even if it's just a tactic right even if you learn these skills just as a tactic act as if you're a vulnerable person act as if you have self-awareness over time it will just simply become part of who you are does that make sense do you buy into that argument
yeah absolutely i believe that what really helped me was then and back to that support group that i joined was to be around other men who are older than me and listening to them and hearing their journey if we're looking back perhaps how men became men in the past there was more of a hands-on job we were with the fathers the grandfathers we were all doing work together we had mentors we had role models we learned that is not there anymore and i think that there's a big gap that at least i could feel and
I also didn't do things like joining the army or the military, which was also compulsory in Sweden, where I grew up in the past. And people said, you become a man when you do that for one or two years, going through a little bit of tough and hardness. I didn't have that in my life. So therefore, it seemed I needed my crash and my fall and admit that I needed to do what they call in recovery.
I needed to surrender and then look at others, what I was doing and picking up the good pieces there.
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of self-awareness in leadership?
I follow because I think that these people are constantly trying things to get something done and you get to see in public in real time, whether it works or not.
Yeah, that's fascinating. I get some part of it. Of course, I get it by memes. I follow all the news.
The best part is, and this is what I... Like, the internet always wins. Like, at the end of the day, these... We'll call them trolls or meme creators or whatever. I don't know who these people are. I don't know where they are, but they always win. They're always going to get you no matter what.
They're always going to, they're going to put your head on a thing and say, and it's just, sometimes it's so clever and brilliant. It's like my dirty pleasure, I guess. You know what I mean? Like we all got that one little thing that we do and that's probably mine.
So beyond physical fitness, are there any other, because that one makes complete sense to me, are there any other kind of specific to this moment in time things that people are coming up to you about?
Yeah, we have covered a bit on it, and it is the lack of support, the lack of support system. We touched on that as well. That's a huge one. And the workshop today, for example, mainly from big MSC's company, they don't have that in place. They don't have it. They don't have anyone they speak with. And of course, when you ask why, they say, my company provide an internal mentoring program.
And what is happening then? If you have an internal mentor, it happens the same as when I had mine. We're trying to impress that person instead when we have the conversation. Why? Because that person probably have a say in your next promotion. You wouldn't be open and vulnerable and share your biggest challenges, what you're facing to someone internally.
Again, we have to take ownership for our own lives. Yes, it's great if you have a great job and the company is looking after you, they have their policies and they have some internal, but we got to look at our own life with full ownership and that goes for our career as well. Why would we trust that our company look after our career? It's not in their interest. It's taking that self-ownership.
And there's wonderful coaches who can help us to strategize that and look at that and looking at the next level. And also, we shouldn't put all eggs in one basket and trust that the company will employ you for 30 years and then be surprised when there's a layoff next year. So I think... thinking about and having that portfolio kind of career mindset where you're constantly building your portfolio.
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Chapter 7: How do societal norms affect men's vulnerability?
It's just the next natural conclusion based on what you're interested in. I couldn't agree with that advice more. I think this idea of building your personal, just recapping, if you have a purpose, an idea, and I'm interested in your take on this, just around constructing a purpose, I find a lot of people who come to me
they don't have a purpose because maybe what they're interested in is very broad to start, right? And I think they think somehow that's wrong. Like their purpose needs to be a specific, I help children in this country do this thing. And it doesn't have to be that specific.
The more specific you get, the more directed, the more the universe will pull in opportunities to you, the more specific you are. But at first it could just be, I like to be fit and want to help people get fit, right? And then it could be, I like to help men over 40 get fit. And then it's, I like to help men who are in leadership positions get fit.
And then you can refine it over time, but it's like we need a vector first before we have a destination. Does that make sense?
Chapter 8: What is the relationship between masculinity and vulnerability?
Yeah, absolutely. Finding your purpose is definitely a journey. It's not something that is a big crack overnight and just find any kind of direction, as we say. And what happened to me for my journey, I started to become a volunteer for a suicide prevention agency in Singapore, a cause that is big to my heart.
A major portion of my work and my keynotes and so on amounts are donated to that cause and also volunteer for them and so on. That is close to my heart and gives me a lot of meaning to do that. That doesn't mean that's my only purpose. I also find meaning in other things, including keeping fit and helping others to be fit. So, yeah, it's just about starting that journey.
Nick, this has been an incredible conversation, man. I appreciate the hell out of you. If people are interested in getting deeper into your world, learning more about you, what you offer, where should they go?
They can have a look at my LinkedIn profile. I'm quite active there. And it's Nick Johnson, N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N. If they want to look up my book, it's Executive Loneliness. It's available on Amazon as a Kindle paperback and also on Kindle as an audiobook. Tremendous.
Nick, I wish you nothing but the best, man. I appreciate your time tonight. Taking the time with us means a lot to me, means a lot to the audience. So thank you so much.
Thanks, Ryan.
In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.
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