In this episode, Ryan Hanley sits down with Robert "Cujo" Teschner, retired fighter pilot and author of Debrief to Win, to uncover the transformative power of failure in building high-performing teams. Cujo shares how psychological safety, vulnerability, and intentional reflection create a culture where leaders and teams thrive under pressure. Packed with actionable insights and riveting stories, this conversation is a masterclass in turning setbacks into springboards for success. Join our community: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanley Connect with Robert "Cujo" Teschner: Website: https://robertteschner.com/ Debrief to Win: https://amzn.to/3BtRJjx If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast—it helps us reach more listeners like you and continue delivering impactful conversations. Your feedback means the world to us and keeps the mission alive—thank you for your support!
Chapter 1: What are the key qualifications of Cujo?
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous episode for you today, a conversation with Robert Cujo Teschner. He is a combat veteran, former F-15 Eagle instructor at the prestigious U.S. Air Force Weapons School, as well as Air Force Top Gun Program instructor. He's a former F-22 Raptor Fighter Squadron commander, having commanded one of America's most prestigious...
operational F-22 fighter squadrons. Cujo is now a leadership coach, a peak performance, personal development coach, entrepreneur, speaker. And his book, Debrief to Win, is a must-read for leaders. It is a must-read. It's called Debrief to Win. I'll have a link in the show notes. If you haven't read Debrief to Win, stop what you're reading right now. Pick up this book.
If you are in a leadership position or aspire to be in one someday, this is a book you do not want to miss. This episode is going to blow your mind. your mind. It is absolutely incredible. If you're in a leadership position or ever want to be a leader, lock in, friends, because we got one for you today. With all that said, and no further ado, let's get on to my good friend, Cujo.
I have been so incredibly excited to chat with you because a mutual friend of ours, Chris Paradiso, met you, spent time with you, and since that moment hasn't stopped talking about you. And mostly positive. No, I'm kidding. And I just read your book, Debrief to Win, and I just want to dig in. So I appreciate your time that you're spending with us here today.
Yeah, listen, thank you very much. I mean, so Mr. Paradis has been singing your praises and I've been looking forward to this. We do all kinds of different things, but this is this is the kind of thing that I like to do almost the most.
And I'm really excited to be able to present like an idea thought coming from what it is that you read and debrief to win your listeners to help them and what it is that they're doing. I think it's the exact right audience for what it is we're talking about. So this fires me up.
Awesome. So where I want to start is in most of these, I turn into basically personal consulting, just so you know, like I basically do the podcast. So I get free personal consulting. So many people reach out to me today. My life as well. It's freaking hectic, right? Like there's so much coming at us. And we talked a little about it before.
You said you got so much going on, you know, in your brain. So do I. Much of your philosophy is, my understanding is taking time post-action to reflect, as the title of your book, Debrief to Win, taking time to think about what happened. And I know for a fact that the vast majority of leaders, of executives, of sales individuals, we just don't do that.
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Chapter 2: Why is reflection important for leaders?
We take action, and then regardless of outcome, we just move on to the next action. So my first question is actually kind of hyper-tactical. How do we build that time in? How do we actually stop ourselves or slow ourselves down enough to reflect, to kind of debrief on action?
17?
As long as you want. Okay, good. I'll tell you what, the brute force method seems to be probably the entrepreneurial spirit. Like, let's just go out there and attack and dominate and do whatever it takes, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Like, I'm on fire with this concept and we're just going to go and we're going to make mistakes along the way, but we're just going to keep on plying forward.
And eventually, we're going to win at this thing just because we've just been so... Power focused and energetic all the way through. And that's definitely an option. And I think both you and I have been have been squarely focused on that kind of an option in the work that we do. And so it kind of makes sense to us. And there you go. And it can be successful. Question is, is the best option?
And that's a really worthwhile question for all of us to think about. Like, is brute force the best way to move forward? Or is there something else that's missing that could make this whole experience of building and leading a little bit better? So I would contrast
what it is that we do in the world of business and specifically the entrepreneurial world with the way that we attack it in military high performance teams, high reliability, high consequence organizations, I might add. And that is though we have a lot of brute force that we can bring to the mix for sure. And we're talking a lot of type A players and folks that are in it to win.
We've gone with the intentional route that says we owe it. We owe it to those who we serve. to do this thing as effectively as possible, which means learning constantly and baking in, making it a cultural focus to bake in the time for reflection always. Not occasionally, not only when there's been a disaster, not only if it best serves us or if we feel like, okay, this is the one that warrants it.
No, we're going to do it always. And we're going to bake it in to where generation after generation after generation will always do it that way. And, you know, you might ask, OK, so what? Like, how does that apply to me? The answer is in that world where so much is riding on the outcomes, we know that we can't afford not to take the time to do it that much better the next time.
And I think there's a lot of cross applicability there into all that we do.
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Chapter 3: How can we create a culture of psychological safety?
So I do that and I said, okay, to hold myself accountable, every day that I deadlift, I'm going to just record my last set and post it on social media. And at first I look like anybody who's never done an exercise before. I mean, I'm athletic enough, but certainly not, you know, whatever. And I got these people. People say crazy shit to you when you post stuff on social media. And it's all good.
I don't care. And then about a year and a half in to my journey, I worked with a branding expert to help upgrade our brand and whatever. And she's like, you know, why are you posting this stuff? She's like, look, you look like this. And I'm like, because I want... people to know that like, you don't start at 450 pounds at 41 years old deadlifting.
Chapter 4: What lessons can we learn from failures?
Chapter 5: How do we address losses in a team environment?
I've invested all this money, blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, screw it. I'll start going to the gym because no one's picking up the phone and answering my calls anyway. So I set up, I had never deadlifted before. I'd always been an athlete, but I'd never deadlift. I said, I'm going to try this new exercise and I'm going to set a goal for myself. Okay, great.
So I do that and I said, okay, to hold myself accountable, every day that I deadlift, I'm going to just record my last set and post it on social media. And at first I look like anybody who's never done an exercise before. I mean, I'm athletic enough, but certainly not, you know, whatever. And I got these people. People say crazy shit to you when you post stuff on social media. And it's all good.
I don't care. And then about a year and a half in to my journey, I worked with a branding expert to help upgrade our brand and whatever. And she's like, you know, why are you posting this stuff? She's like, look, you look like this. And I'm like, because I want... people to know that like, you don't start at 450 pounds at 41 years old deadlifting.
You know, I, my first day, I, the max I could do was 185 pounds. I don't know. You know what I mean? I haven't been a college athlete for 20 years. So it's like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't about, I'm not trying to be a fitness professional. It was about showing like, Hey, as an entrepreneur, I believe physical fitness and wellness is very, very, uh, important.
I bring a lot of health and people on the show for that reason. And all I'm trying to show them is, hey, it's COVID and it sucks and I got a mask on, but we can work through it. That's it. And I'm telling you, she blistered me and she wasn't doing it to be a jerk. You know, she was being accurate. She's like, people are going to see this.
As you failing, like they're not going to take this as like you said, like putting your, you know, presenting this thing that like you're all this stuff and you're this powerful guy. And I'm like, well, I'm not that I can only do 225 today. You know what I mean? What am I supposed to do? And it was wild. She was like she was. So I didn't take it down and whatever.
But she was like really adamant that that was having a negative impact on her. the brand on my brand and the brand of the business was like these videos of me lifting weights. And, um, but here's the opposite to it.
And this is where I want to get back to your, uh, to your, uh, psychological safety piece for a second was the other side was I must've gotten hundreds of messages, mostly from guys, but, but from a few women too, that were like, dude, like, I've been struggling to get to the gym and you're pissing me off that you're going. And now I'm going to, you know what I mean?
Like, and you know, and all that kind of stuff. So I'm like, you know, I think we have to, the other side of this is, yeah, you're, you're going to get some feedback that you might not like, but you're also, if you're being authentic and really trying to help and, and, you know, get better, there's so many people that are also going to see you for what you're actually trying to do.
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Chapter 6: What is the role of vulnerability in leadership?
And a good leader understands where it is that that's not going to not only not break psychological safety or the team's effectiveness, but is actually the exact right thing for the team. Then it just can't be that way every time.
Yeah. What I hear you saying is it has to be a tool in your tool belt used appropriately, like any tool, not. your cultural norm.
That's right. Yep. And I mean, just like anything, like if every day were Christmas and we'll just look at it from the purely, you know, secular lens of like people are getting gifts here and it's all like fun and happy, it would actually diminish the, uh, the joy of, Oh, it's Christmas again. You know, I wish, I wish one of these days we wouldn't get all these presents.
Like it's, it just, it's not the same thing. And if that's your deal where you're always coming down hard on everybody, like, Oh, there he is. There's a boss again, losing his mind over another, you know, whatever, you know, and you got to ask at what point do people totally tune out? I've actually had people tell me as a consequence of always being criticized for everything that they do.
They've actually not only stopped caring, but they've been actively seeking another place of employment because they, they just tune out.
Yeah, this is funny, but so I coach. My kids play sports. I coach them, and the kids are funny. Some of these kids I've been with for a while. So one of the kids, great kid, parents are good people, but the dad's a bit of a yeller, and he's not a coach, so he's constantly yelling from the stands. And I coach third base for baseball, and he gets to third, and he'd kind of made a bonehead play and –
He was safe at third, but it was very ugly how he got there. Let's just put it that way. And the dad's, and I just kind of leaned over and I'm like, how do you deal with that? You know, and 10 year old looks at me and goes, oh, I don't even hear him anymore. He thinks he's laying the smack down on his kid. He didn't even realize he was yelling at him.
Oh my goodness. Isn't that so true? Yeah. Yeah.
He's like, I don't even hear him.
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Chapter 7: How can ego affect organizational culture?
I struggle to think that people are wrong in that, right? I struggle to think that the individual who can't trust the parent company, I don't see it as a bad thing that they look out for themselves because I don't know that they can trust a lot of these large organizations. I don't know. Where do you stand on all that?
Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, part of the leadership deal is being trustworthy and fulfilling your obligations and honoring your commitments. All of that, I mean, that's leadership 101. I mean, nobody's going to look out for you better than yourself. I mean, I say this as a post-colorectal cancer kind of a guy. Like, I talk to a lot of doctors.
For many of them, I'm just another number, you know, like almost dehumanized. You know, I'm patient number 406. Come in, get my thing, and, you know, whatever. And I realize that I know a lot more about my condition than many of the people that examine me and do whatever because they may have had, like, a one-hour class
on this particular thing but i'm living it every single day and i guarantee you i'm very very in tune with what it is that i'm experiencing so i have to be i have to be about me more so than anybody else in order to advocate properly for myself that said what is the ambition of a team
I mean, is the ambition of a team for the team to serve its individual members, is the ambition of the team to help the individual teammates to achieve their own individual unique aspirations? I mean, the teams that I've been on, it's certainly not been the case. In fact, it's been the opposite. Everybody subordinates self-interest to the good of the team. And if one of us fails, all of us do.
And it's a totally different dynamic. And so I think if leaders have broken trust by not fulfilling obligations and they've caused folks to then kind of be in the defensive crouch of, I must protect me, then we're doing it totally wrong. Because what's the point of a team? What's the good of a team if we're really not one but in name only?
Like everybody's just contributing their piece to keep the boss off the back just so they can figure out where they're going to jump next. Like that's not a fulfilling place to be. And though it may be where people are and maybe it's okay for them to be there because of the broken trust and the experience that you're describing there with your father. I mean, that's sad. It truly is sad.
I actually had the same experience when I joined the Air Force. I was at the Air Force Academy. As a freshman, the chief of staff of the Air Force came and said, listen, I know I told everybody, or the rule was when you signed up here, that if you made it to graduation and you were pilot qualified, you were going to fly airplanes for the Air Force.
But I just want you to know that as a result of shifting strategy, it's not the case anymore. Only like a quarter of you are going to get a chance to fly. Good luck. We're like, what? What? And actually, somebody even called out the chief of staff on this, like, hey, we have an honor code here. We're supposed to, like, not, you know, ever lie.
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Chapter 8: What practices can enhance team learning?
May the best one of us win. And I do think that... that it comes back down to we need leaders who honor their obligations, who speak the word and are truthful always, who can then create an environment where it is about the good of the team and about the team achieving mission success together.
Meaning that if I sense that you're having a problem over here, Hanley, I'm going to commit myself to helping you out, giving you whatever gift of time and talent that I've got that can help you to help advance our collective mission because that's what teammates do. And those are the kinds of organizations that we want to be on.
And if we're not finding that fulfillment here, we're going to go our own way, create our own companies, and hopefully create that dynamic there. And I suppose of all the ills that we describe, if we can then, inspired by not replicating what it is that your father's experienced, create a kind of environment that brings the best out of our teammates, then that's a win.
And we always do our best when we're surrounded by people that are pointing in the same direction with us.
Yes. Yes. And triple yes. Oh, yeah. And it makes it fun. These days, one of the squadrons that I used to be a part of, we love hanging out with each other. We're all done. Like none of us is, I don't think, well, maybe there's a few of us that are still in the airport, but most of us are washed up old retired guys now and gals. And, uh, we can't wait till the next reunion.
And we, I mean, our first reunion was just conducted at a very inopportune time. Like the schedule was not really convenient for anybody. And we all showed up. Some people were only there for a few hours, but they showed up. They flew all the way to Las Vegas to show up, to be there for this thing, because we miss being around one another, because there's something special about work.
Even in high pressure, dangerous situations, working with a bunch of people that actually care about one another and care about achieving success together, that's a really big deal, especially now.
And those, it's funny, you know, I have people from previous companies, careers that you stay connected to. And when you look at the people who you do stay connected to, it's, you know, I hate to use a military analogy in a situation that doesn't make sense, but that we're in the foxhole with you, right?
That like, you know, maybe you're part of a company that's a thousand people, but your little business unit of five, you took on this challenge or this client and you got it done and it was late nights and tough conversations and, And then, you know, you everyone, you know, project gets done, you go your separate ways, but you can come back together on that moment.
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