What are the origins of Britain’s original bad boys, The Rolling Stones? Where did they all come from and how did they meet? What was it about the 1960s, with its air of sexual liberation, newly elected Labour government, and rising youth culture that allowed them to burst onto the musical scene? Who was Brian Jones, the band's troubled founder? And, what made the Rolling Stones, even from the earliest stages, so much more controversial than The Beatles? Join Dominic and Tom as they discuss the rise of one of history’s greatest, sexiest, and most suavely devilish bands, and the glaring light they shed upon the tumultuous 1960s. _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What makes the Rolling Stones controversial?
The weird thing is... I mentioned Maureen Cleave's Anna Wintour Bob. He looks a bit like a kind of male Maureen Cleave, a little bit.
Well, that's his hair, isn't it? That's a strange sort of bowl haircut.
Yeah, it's his hair. Because there was a weird thing. So his girlfriend, Anita Pallenberg, didn't she say that he wanted to be Francois Zardy or some kind of French chanteuse and he would get her to kind of... you know, put on makeup.
Well, in the next episode, we will discuss the Pallenberg-Jones relationship, which I think it's safe to say is tangled, Tom.
Yeah. The theme of androgyny in The Stones is obviously quite important. I mean, it's there with Mick Jagger as well.
It is indeed. So initially he gets into Cheltenham Art College, but then after news of his poor conduct emerges, he's kicked out and he ends up taking a succession of odd jobs. Because Brian Jones, he'll dominate these two episodes, it's worth pausing for a moment on his personality. He's a very bright boy. He's sensitive. He's very needy. And he's very, very difficult.
Bill Wyman and his autobiography, Stone Alone, which is well worth reading, actually. It's a really, really interesting book. Bill Wyman said he was a preening peacock, gregarious, artistic, desperately seeking assurance from his peers. Mick Jagger said of Brian Jones, I've been practicing. I can't really do it. It's so hard to do. No, it's impossible. He was an extremely difficult person.
There was something very, very disturbed about him. He was very unhappy with life, very frustrated. He was talented, but he was a very paranoid personality, not suited for show business. Keith Richards. This is the most printable thing I could find. He said of his former friend and bandmate, he was a bastard. Like Harold Godwinson on Willing the Conqueror. Yes, I guess so. Yeah.
Now, I think the thing about Brian Jones is clearly a very nasty man. He's got a very nasty streak. He has something in common with John Lennon. He enjoys beating up women. He beats up women a lot. John Lennon did not enjoy beating up women and he repented it. But he does beat up women. He does it multiple times.
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Chapter 2: How did the Rolling Stones' image differ from the Beatles'?
I actually went horse riding in Argentina. Did you? But I don't remember any special trousers. There might have been some chaps or something like that. God, I don't want to imagine you in chaps. Brilliant. The other thing is that this point, the first appearance in the press, is also the first point where people comment on their appearance.
Their hair worn Piltdown style, brushed forward from the crown like the Beatles pop group. And Piltdown style? Piltdown Man. Yeah, Piltdown Man, friend of the show.
Do you want to explain Piltdown Man very quickly, Tom, to people who didn't hear that episode? Yeah, fake prehistoric man, the missing link, discovered in Sussex.
Exactly. So the comparison with Stone Age Man, which you hear a lot in the 60s, but also obviously the comparison with the Beatles. So right from the beginning, they're being held to that standard. And as it happens, the very next day, who should come to see them play but the Beatles.
The Beatles have been filming for TV nearby in Teddington, and they've heard that there's this band, and they come to see them at this hotel. It's a sign, actually, of how relatively unfamous the Beatles are at this point. They're famous enough to be filming for TV, but not so famous that they can't go to a hotel to watch a little local band.
And they go there and the Stones are very excited that the Beatles, who are what, a year or so older maybe, little more than that, roughly the same age, but far more famous. The Stones are very excited. They actually try to impress the Beatles afterwards by saying, listen to this, and they'll play random blues numbers that the Beatles have never heard of and are not interested in.
So the Stones are desperately trying to sort of suck up to them. But the Beatles are very nice to them. The Beatles say, look, we're playing at the Royal Albert Hall in a couple of weeks. Would you like free tickets? The Stones don't find that condescending. They're delighted. They're very excited. I mean, but it is a brilliant thing to play at the Albert Hall, isn't it, Dominic? It is.
We should do that to other history podcasters. I don't want to because I don't want to set up a Rolling Stones to our Beatles. That would be terrible. Bill Wyman in his memoir says, Jagger and Richards idolized the Beatles and were starstruck by them. And I think this, you can argue, this is a key moment for them.
Because this is a point when they, for the first time, meet people who have had the success of which they dream. And it's a point at which they glimpse, perhaps, for the first time, what it would be like to become stars. And then, just two weeks later, comes the moment and the meeting that really changes their lives.
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