Tom Holland
Appearances
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553. The Last Viking: Warrior of the New Rome (Part 2)
This is the strangest thing about this story is that Northern Ireland is so small. And listen, there are other, I mean, you could tell a similar story about Sarajevo or any number of other types of places where there's been a conflict, Rwanda. And then the conflict ends and everybody still kind of lives in the same community and you see these people. But...
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553. The Last Viking: Warrior of the New Rome (Part 2)
You know, there's an instance, even as adults, where Helen McConville is with her own family in McDonald's and sees one of the people who abducted her mother. There's a moment that I describe in the book where Michael McConville actually gets into the back of a black taxi in Belfast as an adult.
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553. The Last Viking: Warrior of the New Rome (Part 2)
And he sees in the mirror in the front of the taxi, he realizes that the man driving him is one of the people who decades earlier abducted his mother. And the strangest, most eerie aspect of this is he doesn't say anything. And he doesn't even know if that guy... recognizes him and they drive in silence and then he just pays the guy's money and leaves.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It kind of upgrades his status. And what is also very useful for Augustus is that Tiberius, as he grows up in Augustus's family, proves to be a man of remarkable accomplishment. And Suetonius gives us all the details of this.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Suetonius reports that Tiberius is exceedingly clever, exceedingly well-read, very, very interested in all kinds of intellectual pursuits and particularly in mythology, in the study of the gods and in the literature of Greece and Rome. He's also a very effective administrator.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So even as a very young man, he's charged by Augustus, again to quote Suetonius here, making up a shortfall in the supply of grain to Rome. I mean, that's a crucial thing. If Rome is not kept supplied, then Augustus's regime will topple. So it's a real marker of trust.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And then Augustus commissions the young Tiberius to launch a thorough investigation into the slave barracks across Italy, the owners of which had a but men whose fear of military service had driven them to hide out there. And again, that's really important because Augustus does not want his regime to be associated with conditions of internal instability.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
He wants order, really important for his popularity. So this is a real kind of demonstration of his trust in Tiberius. And then on top of that, Tiberius proves to be a brilliant military leader, far the best of his generation. To the extent that later in his life, whenever there is a major crisis on the frontiers, it is Tiberius to whom Augustus turns.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And it's not going too far to say that Tiberius is twice the savior of his country. So the first of these great feats of repairing Rome and ensuring that her frontiers are not overwhelmed takes place in 86 when there's a great revolt in Pannonia, so basically what's now Hungary. He crushes that.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And the second is in the aftermath of the great disaster of Augustus's reign, which is the defeat of the three legions under the command of Varus by the Germans in 89. And it's Tiberius who ensures that that disaster does not lead to the complete collapse of the frontier and Germans flooding into Gaul. and Italy.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So Suetonius quotes a letter that Augustus wrote to Tiberius during these kind of later years, in which he writes to Tiberius, addresses him as dearest and bravest and most dutiful of generals. So this is a very, very impressive man.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Because that's what every Roman nobleman wants. You know, they want their bloodline to be perpetuated. So Julia has given him various kind of grandsons and granddaughters. And Augustus has adopted the eldest of his three grandsons. guys called Gaius and Lucius, directly as his sons. So this is marking them out as the heirs.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And Tiberius is very, very sensitive to the fact that he's not in the line of succession. And he makes a real point of trying not to tread on the toes of Gaius and Lucius, who of course are much younger than him, much less experienced, much less able. And he... You know, he does his best, but he is a Claudian. I mean, he's a very proud man and he can't really help but betray his resentment.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So this happens in various ways. So Augustus marries Julia, his daughter, to Tiberius and Tiberius and Julia don't get on well. At one point, Tiberius is so aggravated by the situation he finds himself that he chucks everything in and he retires to Rhodes. And he does it in a way that seems very openly to insult Augustus, who has publicly requested him not to go.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And relations between the two men break down so badly. That in the event when Tiberius says, well, I've had enough of raids. I want to come back now. Augustus forbids it. So effectively, Tiberius is in exile and actually in a measure of danger from Lucius and Gaius, who, you know, obviously in turn feel menaced by this very able, their kind of elder.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But then in, first of all, in AD 2, Lucius dies, and then in AD 4, Gaius dies. And this is basically the kind of the plot twist in I Claudius, that it's Livia, Tiberius's mother, who is poisoning them and kind of elbowing aside anyone who might stand in the path of her son to succeed to the throne.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
They're not poisoned, are they? No, I mean, almost certainly not. And their death means that effectively Augustus now has no choice but to adopt Tiberius as his heir. And this means that Tiberius ceases to be a Claudian and he now becomes a Julian. This is what qualifies him to rank as a Caesar. And it's a public proclamation to the world that Tiberius is now Augustus' heir.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And sure enough, on the 17th of September, AD 14, when Augustus dies, he is succeeded to the rule of the Roman world by his adoptive son, Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus. And people will note that in that name, there is no hint of his Claudian ancestry.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So there are whole chunks... of Suetonius' account of Tiberius as an emperor that makes him sound an absolutely model ruler. So Suetonius says of Tiberius that although he's emperor, he conducted himself much as any citizen in the days of the Republic might have done, and indeed for a while with fewer heirs. So in other words, Tiberius is reassuring his fellow citizens that
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Just because he has inherited Augustus's powers, that doesn't mean that the civic ideals of the Republic are being kind of thrown in the dust. He's not a monarch. He doesn't conduct himself like a monarch. He does not. Well, this is what Suetonius tells us. And also he, therefore, is very quick to scorn flattery. So he gets addressed by someone as Dominus, master. And Tiberius is appalled.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And Suetonius says he told the man never to call him by such an insulting title again. And Suetonius specifies that Tiberius shows immense respect towards the Senate, who were the great body of leading men who had guided Rome throughout the centuries of the Republic. He honours the ancient traditions of free speech. People are allowed to insult him if they want to.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
As he had done as a young man, so as emperor, he secures the public peace against banditry, brigandage and sedition. And he shows concern for the security, stability and well-being of the provinces. To governors who urged him to impose a heavier tribute on the provinces, Suetonius writes, he wrote back that a good shepherd should shear his flock, not skin them.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Tiberius is a man who is concerned not just with the peace of the provinces, but with ensuring that they're prosperous. This all seems to be great. It all sounds brilliant. But then you read this, and then comes a kind of key pivot point in the biography. Suetonius writes, Only gradually did Tiberius reveal the true character of his rule.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Suetonius' thesis is that the older Tiberius becomes, so the harder he finds it to restrain the monstrous vices that had always secretly been gnawing at him. And there are two vices in particular, one of which we've already discussed. It's his sexual perversities, his palling deviancies, but also the fact that Tiberius secretly is a monster of cruelty.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Right. So, yeah. So in AD 29, he exiles the woman who is Augustus's last surviving grandchild. And this is a woman called Agrippina. She's much loved and admired by the Roman people. Great favourite. But Tiberius doesn't care. He has her exiled to a remote and distant island. And she has given birth to three sons. The oldest of these is called Nero. The middle one is called Drusus.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
The youngest is called Gaius. And he goes by an affectionate nickname, Caligula. Little boots or whatever. Yes. So he's the youngest. So the two elders, Nero and Drusus, Tiberius had adopted them. And that, of course, is to signal to the world, to the Roman people, that these rank as his heirs. He wants them to succeed him. But when their mother falls from favour, so do they.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So Nero, like Agrippina, is exiled to a remote island. And Drusus is kind of chained up in the bowels of the great palace on the Palatine Hill in Rome. And within four years, all three of them are dead. And Suetonius does not spare the reader the hideous details. Agrippina, we're told that she is beaten so badly in prison on her island that she loses an eye. She goes on hunger strike.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
On Tiberius's orders, she's forcibly fed, but she just keeps spitting food up and ultimately she dies of starvation. Suetonius writes that Nero was driven to commit suicide after an executioner, pretending that he had been sent by order of the Senate, showed him a garrote and hooks, and that Drusus was reduced to such torments of hunger that he tried to eat the stuffing of his mattress.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So these are the stories that are told.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
That is the gist of it. I mean, it's very mafia. Sejanus is kind of Tiberius's conciliary. He's trying to take out the boss. It's failed. And so, you know, the aging godfather launches these terrible reprisals. And Again, Suetonius, who loves a shocking atrocity, he doesn't spare us the details.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So he says of the people who've been fingered in this conspiracy, all those put to death were flung down the Gammonian steps, dragged away on hooks. Since it was strictly forbidden by tradition to strangle virgins, the executioner made sure to rape young girls before throttling them, which I always think is a complete, you know, such a repellent detail.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And then anyone who wished to die was forced to live. Again, a kind of you know, cruel refinement. The poor fisherman who brought Tiberius the mullet, with which we began this episode, he's not the only guy who gets flung from a cliff. So on Capri, Suetonius writes, the place where Tiberius used to watch executions is still pointed out. So there's a bit of field research.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
The very spot from where those found guilty after protracted and excruciating tortures would be flung on his command into the sea. down to where a band of marines would be waiting to smash the corpses with poles and oars, just on the off chance that any might still have the breath of life. And then Suetonius gives us a particularly hideous torture that Tiberius has devised himself.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
No sooner had his victims been tricked into filling themselves to bursting with a large quantity of wine than their urethras would be bound tight so that they would be put into agony both by the tightening of the cord and by the distending of their bladders.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
I think it's entirely fair. And it's not surprising that the Marquis de Sade kept a copy of Suetonius in his library. Because, of course, as well as the cruelty, there are these sex crimes that he's supposedly indulging in.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And the passages where Suetonius describes them, I think definitely the most revolting section in the Lives of the Caesars, quite possibly in the whole of Roman literature, which is saying something. And Suetonius himself, I mean, he says that these deviances, that they shouldn't be discussed. And then, of course, he does.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I suppose the most notorious example, probably the one that people who are familiar with this story will have heard of, Suetonius claims that Tiberius trained little boys whom he called his minnows to slip between his thighs as he was swimming and to tease him with the swirling of their tongues and the playfulness of their nibbling. And that is by no means the worst.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It does get worse. And all these sections where Suetonius is describing not just what is being done to Tiberius himself, but he's kind of staging erotic pageants, floor shows. It's quite hard to work out exactly what is going on, what positions are being adopted, because
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It's almost as though the Latin itself is breaking down, as though Suetonius is struggling to articulate the complexity of all these kind of weird sex acts that Tiberius is commissioning. And, you know, as we've said, this account of what Tiberius is getting up to on Capri is so shocking, so celebrated, so notorious that it has damaged Tiberius's reputation for two millennia.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But to return to the question that you asked, beginning of this half, you know, is it biographical fact or is it muckraking? I think it is really telling that actually all the stuff that we've also been talking about in this episode, all the stuff about him investigating slave barracks and, you know, leading armies and sorting out the grain supply. I mean, nobody remembers that.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
That's all kind of boring. It's the lurid quality of what's being described. And I think that... These seem to exist in a completely different dimension. So it's as though in the biography we have Tiberius is a Roman politician like any other, the kind of figure who might appear in Livy or something like that.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And then on Capri, he seems like some monster from some hideous tragedy or monstrous epic poem. And I think that the clue to what is going on with Suetonius and indeed with Tiberius lies in that. It's the fact that Tiberius is being portrayed both as an emperor like any other, but also as a figure of myth. That's the key to understanding him.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So maybe one answer to that puzzle, you might think, well, Philo is Greek. As you said, he's not familiar with Rome because he's from Alexandria. Perhaps he just doesn't really have a handle on what's going on. Perhaps you have to be in Rome to get the full sense of the horrors that are being reported of Tiberius.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And back up for that is the fact that we do have another very detailed source for Tiberius's reign. And that is not a biography, but a history. And it's a history written by Rome's greatest historian, Tacitus, who hates Tiberius and corroborates many of Suetonius's darkest accusations. And Tacitus, like Suetonius, agrees that Tiberius was hated by the Roman people when he died.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Capri, you say, is in the Bay of Naples and it had been appropriated by Augustus to serve him as a kind of retreat. And actually he kept his collection of fossils there. So he had a brilliant collection of sea monsters, which were fossils that had been brought to him. And shortly before his death in AD 14, Augustus had gone there to kind of get a bit of rest.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And according to both men, so both the great biographer and the great historian, the Senate hated Tiberius because he had been tyrannical, vengeful, murderous. And the people had hated him because they had sensed that he despised them. He took no pleasure in the things that gave them delight. He refused to lay on public entertainments.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Gladiators in his reign were complaining that they had nothing to do. And so, you know, not only is he a kind of bloodstained pervert who goes around killing senators, he's also a massive killjoy. Right. Yeah. This is not a good image. But the fact is that actually we do know, even though it hasn't survived, that there was at least one account of Tiberius's life that was very, very laudatory.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And the reason we know that is that Suetonius is clearly drawing on it. Because although he doesn't name his sources, it's evident when you read his life that what he's done is basically lifted stuff from one source, which is very positive, and he's listed other stuff from a second source, which is vituperative. And he's basically just stitched them together.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And he hasn't tried really to reconcile them.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Right, exactly. And so that's why it's so hard to get a handle on who the real Tiberius might have been. And is it possible to get any sense of the real man, the real politician, the real emperor behind the myth?
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I think it's difficult, but I think it is possible to make a case for Tiberius as having been an emperor who probably was more sinned against than sinning when it comes to Suetonius and Tacitus. And I think it's worth remembering that Suetonius is writing in an age, you know, so he's secretary to Hadrian.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
This is a century on from Tiberius, a time when everyone in the Roman world takes the existence of an autocracy in Rome for granted. But that's not the world that Tiberius is born into and grows up in.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And Tiberius, I think, to a degree that Suetonius is unqualified to recognize, is a man who is torn between two different worlds, two different periods, the period of the Republic and the period of the Empire. So it's really important.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And this is something clearly that Suetonius incoherently does recognize, that Tiberius was a Claudian, that he's a scion of the greatest of all the patrician dynasties that had flourished under the Republic. but he is simultaneously being raised as the stepson and then the adopted son of an autocrat, the first great autocrat in Roman history. So there's an enormous tension there.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And then he'd gone back to the mainland and traveled down the road from Naples. And that was where he died. So Tiberius had inherited Capri along with all of Augustus' other properties, all his titles and his ranks, and of course his status as ruler of the Roman Empire. because Tiberius had been adopted by Augustus. So Tiberius gets the whole lot.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So as a Claudian, he's inherited this assumption that it's his role to serve the Republic, to win glory for himself, for his family, for his city in the traditional manner by organizing grain and conquering barbarians and all that kind of thing.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But simultaneously, as Augustus is dependent, he is expected to show gratitude and submission to the very man who has put the Republic in his shadow, who has established basically a monarchy. And I think it's not surprising that this seems to have generated a degree of stress.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And all the more so because, as we said, in Augustus's household, he is obliged to play second fiddle to people who are much younger and less accomplished than him.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
but who are being elevated simply because they have the blood of augustus in their veins and it's incredibly humiliating for him but more than that i think there's a kind of ideological stress because he's torn between the sense of loyalty he feels towards his city and his class which is These are Republican dynasties. They're hostile by nature to monarchy.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It is the Roman sense that a son should be dutiful towards his father. So he should show respect to Augustus. And I think it's not surprising that Suetonius reports that Tiberius really hated his mother, Livia, as well he might have done because it's basically Livia who's put him in this bind.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
I would go so far as to say, I am sure that that's what's going on with him. And what makes it worse is that in a sense, under Augustus, the better things get for him, the kind of the worse they become. So in 84, when he, you know, after Gaius and Lucius are both dead and Augustus adopts him as his son, you know, he becomes, he's now the heir to the rule of the world.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
He's going to succeed Augustus as Caesar. But this is a kind of real nightmare, if you will. principled opponent of monarchy. I mean, it's a real problem. But also there's a kind of deep element of humiliation, even in being appointed as heir to the rule of the world, because he is no longer a Claudian. That side of him has now been erased. He's a Julian.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And historians call the dynasty of Augustus the Julio-Claudians. There are no Julio-Claudians. You're either a Julian or a Claudian. And Tiberius, by becoming a Julian, has ceased to be a Claudian. And what's even worse is that as Augustus' adopted son, his status is effectively kind of reduced to that of a child.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And Suetonius spells out exactly what this means for Tiberius, who by this point, you know, he's a very seasoned general administrator. He's been the head of his own family. And Suetonius writes from that point on, so after his adoption by Augustus, he no longer acted as the head of a family nor held on to any of the rights that he had forfeited as a result of his adoption.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
for he neither gave out donatives nor granted slaves their freedom, nor could he receive inheritances or legacies except by adding them to his personal allowance, which technically belonged to his father. So that's Augustus.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
I mean, I suppose I would say the contrast with the vice president is that, what is it? It's worth a bucket of spit. You don't do anything. Tiberius is doing, I mean, he's going off and he's, this is the period when he's going off and stabilizing the frontiers and defeating the Germans and the Pannonians and things like that. So he's doing things. It's just his legal status.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
is very, very humiliating to a proud man who has always cherished his status as a Claudian. Then in AD 14, he becomes emperor in succession to Augustus. And formally, there is no title of emperor. It's still a work in progress. Officially, he is hailed as Princeps, which means first man.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And traditionally under the Republic, this hadn't been a formal title, not one held as an office, but it was a title that was kind of awarded by the man who was acknowledged by his peers in the Senate best to have served the Republic. So Pompey had been called Prince Apps, for instance. Yeah.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I think for Tiberius, he must have been nagged by the sense that had it not been for his succession to Augustus, he might have inherited this title of princeps, not by virtue of succession, but by virtue of acclamation. He might have earned it rather than just been given it. Exactly.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And again, you can see that that would make him feel kind of very conflicted, very ambivalent about the status that he now has as princeps, as ruler of the world. I think that the key to understanding the tragedy of his rule and why he seems such an unhappy figure is that essentially he's trying to square ruling as a monarch with his ancestral respect for the traditions of the Republic.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And he demonstrates that this simply can't be done. I suspect... that part of what is going on with the narratives of his bad behavior is that it's a reflection of the fact that Tiberius does come to feel contempt for his fellow citizens. That in a sense, the frustration he feels at his own role comes to be vented on his own family, on the Senate, on the people. So just to look at them in turn.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Yeah, so he's about 70. And by Roman standards, I mean, that's very old. And... Tiberius essentially is doing what great statesmen who've reached the end of their lives, you know, it's perfectly legitimate. You retire to your villa, your country villa.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Agrippina, Nero, Drusus, so that's the granddaughter of Augustus, the great-grandsons of Augustus. These are not Tiberius' blood relatives. They are the descendants of Augustus, and they have their status by virtue of that. And that, I imagine, would not have encouraged Tiberius to feel any great fondness for them.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And although they're arrested before Sejanus' attempted coup, they are eliminated after it. And it's understandable that Tiberius would have felt jittery in the wake of the attempt to overthrow him. And he would have known that if people are going to try and overthrow him, then it's the bloodline of the Caesars, of Augustus. who are the obvious threat to him.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I suspect that that is why he has them eliminated. And then the Senate, Suetonius says, Tiberius has shown the Senate immense respect. You know, he's behaved incredibly well to it. And it's only really kind of towards the end of his rule that things start to get a bit bad. But two things to say about that. The first is that when you kind of tot up the stats of
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
There are only 52 people who are accused of treason, maestas, the Romans called it, an offence against the majesty of the emperor. And half of these get off. So it's basically 25, 26 people.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It's not Hitler. I mean, Stalin would get through more than that in a day. And I think that with Suetonius, less so with Tacitus, but definitely with Suetonius, there's a sense he doesn't really understand the power politics of what's been going on. He doesn't understand, perhaps, the challenges that Tiberius faced on Capri with maintaining his position in Rome. No one has ever tried to do it.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And Suetonius gives this ludicrous story that the treason trials start when a man is denounced for having removed the head of Augustus from a statue and replaced it with the head of someone else.
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And Suetonius writes that thereafter it became a capital crime to beat a slave or even to change one's clothes near a statue of Augustus to carry a ring or coin with his image on it into a latrine or a brothel, which is, I mean, clearly mad. And Tacitus actually, in his account, explicitly says that this is not the case. You know, it didn't happen.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
You escape the kind of the clamor and smoke of Rome and you enjoy what the Roman elites would call otium cum dignitate, which is basically a kind of leisure with dignity, a dignified retirement. Sounds nice. Sounds lovely. It does. But what Suetonius is doing in his biography is revealing the sordid truth that lies behind these seemingly impeccable motivations. And he lists them.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Yes. So we've talked about this before at many times on the podcast, but essentially politics in the Republic is about vibe rather than policy. It's about whether you are a conservative, a traditionalist or whether you are a popularist, a populist, if you like. But they're all kind of, you know, they're all members of the aristocracy. Tiberius is not a popularist.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And in that he's a contrast to Augustus. Augustus is a great one. You know, he's endlessly putting on gladiator shows and slapping people on the back and letting everyone know that he enjoys the pleasures of the people. He's Nigel Farage. Yeah, Tiberius is not that. He's above all that. He kind of despises those kind of things. He's Roy Stewart. He's Roy Stewart, Tom.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
I think he's a sterner, more implacable figure than Rory. But Tiberius, he kind of despises people who flock to gladiator shows. He's not interested in that. And instead, he sees it as his duty to conserve the resources of the state, to build up the coffers of the treasury. And this in turn, of course, means that he doesn't need to impose swinging taxes on the provinces.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And that, of course, helps to explain why he's so popular in places like Alexandria. So I think that Tiberius is clearly, he eliminates members of his own adoptive family in a very brutal manner. He does have senators put to death on charges of treason. But I don't think that by the standards of many other Roman emperors, let alone kind of modern dictators, he is in any way a tyrant.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
He is an old school Roman aristocrat. He is flinty. He's stern. He's imperious. So that's what gives him this kind of severe public reputation. He's been raised with the traditional values and aspirations of his class.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And. Although that had caused him great agony to also simultaneously be part of the family of an autocrat, he had sought to do his duty to the best of his abilities, and those abilities are considerable.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
I would say it's unprecedented because even under Augustus, Augustus had spent much of his reign conquering vast swathes of territory. There's, you know, the great disasters of the Pannonian revolt and the massacre of Varus's legions. There's nothing like that under Tiberius.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I would say that never before in history had there been such a period of freedom from war across such a vast expanse of territory. And that in that sense, Tiberius's rule absolutely is an extraordinary achievement. And it's not surprising, again, that people in Alexandria, like Philo, who can recognize this, say, you know, this guy was amazing.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So The Fisherman, this is clearly a kind of folkloric tale. The idea of someone who cries out, oh, thank goodness I didn't tell them about the lobster or about the prickly pear or whatever. It's a story that gets recycled and recycled across the globe throughout time. And there's a brilliant new book by Edward Champlin, who wrote a wonderful book about Nero that I've often praised.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
This book's just come out, Tiberius and His Age, Myth, Sex, Luxury and Power. And I've been waiting for it to come out for years because I read some of Champlin's chapters on Tiberius. Years ago, and they're absolutely brilliant.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And in this book, he points out that the story of the fisherman, it's not the only time that Tiberius features in a kind of folkloric story in a way that makes him seem like a figure of myth rather than a kind of real life historical story. And Champlain lists many of the strange stories that are told about Tiberius.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So there's kind of very eerie story that Plutarch, the great Greek biographer, reports that a ship is sailing past an island in Greece. And here's this eerie, mysterious voice crying out, the great god Pan is dead. Likewise, there are reports of a merman being discovered in a cave off the coast of Spain.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And both of these wonders are reported to Tiberius and he sets up panels to investigate what's going on. He is cast in stories where he explains his policies by means of fables. So that kind of comment, I want my governors to shear my sheep, not kill them. Tiberius is the kind of the archetype of a good ruler.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And he says that the first reason that Tiberius retires to Capri is out of terror. Suetonius writes, Tiberius lived in the shadow, not just of the loathing and hatred that he inspired, but of his own fears and of the bitter insults to which he was subject.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And again and again, he is the star of what might almost be called parables, kind of stories that are told to illustrate timeless truths. And again, this is idea that Tiberius is being extracted from his own age and serving almost as the kind of the model of a good emperor, a wise king.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And in fact, Champlain calls him Tiberius the Wise and describes him as a figure unique in ancient folklore, a man who is repeatedly appearing in these kind of stories, but who had actually existed.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
terrible behavior on because that seems to run completely counter to the tradition that he's an absolute depraved monster it kind of does but in both cases whether tiberius has been cast as a monster or as the kind of the model of a sage in fact often a kind of prospero a magician on an island because this is another theme it's you know philo mentions it there is no one wiser than tiberius but also that he can penetrate to the mysteries that other people can't see yeah and
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
In all of those, you know, both the negative reports and the kind of the much more positive reports, Tiberius is cast as a man of absolutely exceptional learning with an ability to fathom dimensions of the supernatural in a way that no one else can. So just as you have Tiberius as the guy to work out whether Pan is dead or what this merman is or, you know, all this kind of stuff.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So likewise, in Suetonius' account of all his orgies and depravities, There's this sense that Tiberius is making play with mythology. So Suetonius writes, Tiberius set up shrines to Venus in woods and groves across Capri, where young boys dressed as pan and girls dressed as nymphs would solicit sex outside caves and grottos. And of course, rapes, fantastical copulations, bestiality.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
These are rife in the tales that are told of the gods in Greek mythology. Yeah. And Suetonius is implying that this is what Tiberius is doing, that he's restaging them for his own kind of intellectual titillation as well as his erotic titillation.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So that's obviously why he is so unsettled by finding that a fisherman can climb up this sheer cliff, because he's expecting that he's absolutely secure there. And that's why his reaction, Suetonius implies, is so brutal. But there is another reason as well, and we touched on this in the previous episode we did.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Yeah, I think absolutely. I mean, so Champlin says that, you know, it's a bit like reading a life of an American president. And then suddenly this American president is revealing that Elvis had actually lived. or that the aliens at Roswell, you know, he kind of puts them on public television.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It's the intersection between, you know, the day-to-day life of a politician who sorts out grain supplies and so on with all kinds of mad stuff about pan or erotic floor shows or whatever. And whether it's positive or negative, it's,
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It's casting Tiberius as the interface between the day-to-day and the weird, between the mortal and the divine, between the affairs of politics and kind of dimensions of literature and mythology. I mean, the extent to which this reflects the historical Tiberius, I think, is now impossible to know.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But clearly there were qualities within Tiberius's rule and his character that made people feel he was an exceptional person. whether for bad or for good. And that's why I think Suetonius struggles with him. So, you know, it's a failure as a biography, but as a work of mythologization, it's incredible and very, very influential. And it's Tiberius' misfortune
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
that Suetonius should have emphasised the negative spin rather than the positive one, because I think there is clearly a very positive tradition as well, in which Tiberius is viewed as having been the wisest of all rulers, not just in Rome, but across all of history.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
which is that alongside the Roman assumption that a nobleman has his right to kind of a dignified leisure, is the lurking suspicion that pretty much everyone in Rome is prey to. Someone who craves privacy for its own sake, who indulges in it too much. Bad sign. And Tiberius, I mean, he never goes back to Rome following his arrival in Capri.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
He makes two feints to go back to the city, but he never actually enters it. The assumption in Rome, therefore, is that there are no good reasons for what he's doing. He is indulging the most unspeakable depravity. So again, Suetonius on this, he became notorious for the worst, the most shocking deviancies, such as are hardly to be talked or heard about.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
and indeed strain the bounds of credibility. And then Suetonius, having said that, you know, these deviances are too shocking to be talked about, he then talks about them in great and salacious detail. And as he does so, he insists that despite having said that, you know, these stories strain the bounds of credibility, in fact, they are true. And he is reporting on...
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Gossip that has been obsessing Rome, supposedly. Suetonius tells us that the island of Capri has been renamed in Rome Capro, which is the Latin for a male goat. So Tiberius is this kind of hideous, goatish figure. And thanks to Suetonius' reports, Tiberius' reputation has never really recovered. And to this day, he has the image, I think, in the public imagination.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
of a kind of ghoulish, blood-stained Jeffrey Epstein. A pervert, but an embittered and paranoid and murderous pervert. And it's because of this, Suetonius reports, that when Tiberius dies, the news is greeted with public exultation.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
So again, Suetonius writes, so delighted were the people at the news of his death that when they first heard it, some ran about all over the place yelling to the Tiber with Tiberius, in other words, dump his body in the river that flows through Rome. Some prayed to Mother Earth and to the souls of the departed that the dead man be given no resting place except among the damned.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And others yet threatened his corpse with the hook and the Gammonian steps and the flight of steps that lead from the forum up to the capital. And they passed the great prison and the bodies of those who've been executed are exposed on the Gammonian steps and then dragged with a hook and dumped in the Tiber. In the event, this is not the fate that is visited on Tiberius's body.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Instead, it is escorted from the Bay of Naples, much as Augustus's had been when he died, back to Rome with great honour. It's cremated in a great state funeral. But the taint of this reputation has endured for two millennia. And I would say that if you were, say, casting a vampire film about the living dead in ancient Rome, Tiberius would be the emperor best qualified to star in that.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It is. And it's a brilliant question. And I think that to answer it, it's probably best to look at Suetonius' biography of Tiberius in the whole, because even though his portrayal of the emperor in his grim old age is by far the most memorable, I mean, there is a lot more to his biography than that.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And in fact, and I think this is crucial to understanding Tiberius' character and where he is coming from, Suetonius understands that Tiberius' identity is rooted very, very deep in the past with the origins of his family, the dynasty to which he belongs and is born into. And so he begins his life of Tiberius centuries before Tiberius' birth.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
In fact, in the age of Romulus, who is the founder of Rome itself. And the reason he does that is that even though by adoption Tiberius is the son of Augustus, who in turn is the adoptive son of Julius Caesar, so the Julian family who ultimately claim their descent from the goddess Venus, Tiberius by birth belongs to a family who actually they are no less patrician than the Julians.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
They're a lot more celebrated, a lot more distinguished than the Julians historically have been. And this is a family called the Claudians. So Suetonius gives us a kind of potted history of them. He says that the Claudians had migrated to Rome shortly after the city's founding, so in the time of Romulus, and that they established themselves there.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And they become probably the most famous of all the nobiles, the Romans call them. So that's the word from which we get both nobleman and nobility. And they dominate the entire history of Rome once the monarchy has been expelled and Rome becomes a republic. And Suetonius writes, the hold of the Claudians on the people's affections was formidable and self-perpetuating.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And they are greatly admired for their achievements. So Suetonius lists some of them. It's a Claudian who steals the Romans to fight against Pyrrhus, the Greek king, who's come and has defeated them in three battles and who in the end gives up because his victories have been too pyrrhic. And also, Claudians play a leading role in the defeat of the Carthaginians.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But there is also a dark strain to the record of Claudian achievement. Some of them are viewed with great hatred. So again, fighting against the Carthaginians, there's a notorious story of one Claudian who is leading a battle fleet against the Carthaginians. He gets the soothsayer to consult the holy chickens that are on board his flagship. And the
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And he just has the chickens chucked into the sea and promptly loses his entire fleet. And the women of the Claudians also are simultaneously admired and condemned. So there's one of them whose chastity is so prodigious that she's able single-handedly, it's said, to pull a ship right the way up the Tiber.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And there's another one, the sister of the Claudian who had chucked the chickens in the sea, who is driving through Rome in her carriage. There are crowds everywhere. She's furious. She's stuck in a traffic jam. And she says, if only my brother were around to kill off a few more of these awful crowds in some terrible defeat. And she gets accused of treason for this.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
The only woman in Roman history to be accused of treason up until that point. So they're very charismatic, but there are lots of people who hate them.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And I think that maybe the best way to imagine their kind of status in the Roman Republic is to imagine that in the American Republic, suppose the Kennedys had been on the scene since the days of the founding fathers, that there'd been successions of Kennedys who'd been presidents. People hate them. People love them. It's that kind of charisma that the Claudians have.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Yeah. So he has to kind of leave Italy in fear of his life. And he does so with his wife, Livia, and his baby son, Tiberius. And they go first to Sicily, where Tiberius, his father, is very arrogant, as all the Claudians are supposedly arrogant. So he has a bust up there with the guy in charge of Sicily. And then he goes to Greece.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
And there they're in Sparta and there's a terrible fire and they have to escape. And Livia's hair gets singed. So all kinds of close shaves and it's looking very bad for him. So eventually he goes to Antony, who is ruler of the eastern half of the empire, and makes up with him. And there's an amnesty proclaimed and Tiberius' father, Livia, and the baby Tiberius are then able to go back home.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
to Rome, where an incredible scandal breaks out because while Antony's in the East, Augustus, as he will come to be known, is the ruler of Rome. And so Tiberius' parents are now in the shadow of Augustus and Suetonius reports the consequences.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
It was with Antony that Tiberius' father returned to Rome, and here, pressed by Augustus to surrender him his wife Livia, despite the fact that Livia was pregnant at the time and had already born him a son, he did so. He died not long afterwards and was survived by two sons, Tiberius and his younger brother Drusus. So, very shocking.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
Right. And because, crucially, Livia does not give Augustus any children, and particularly any sons. And so this opens up the massive question of who is going to succeed him. It's obviously very useful for Tiberius and his younger brother Drusus to be the stepsons of the most powerful man in the world, the stepsons of Augustus.
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535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)
But equally, it does redound greatly to Augustus's prestige to have a Claudian wife and two Claudian stepsons. Because although Augustus is the grandson of Julius Caesar, his own father had not been a prestigious figure. He'd basically been a kind of out-of-town guy. He's representative of the Italian nobility, not of the kind of high patrician Roman nobility. So it's good for him.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Entertainingly speculating. Which is what we've just done. Yeah, exactly. But I don't think that that is the key to it. So the other possibility, of course, is that Edith or Edward can't have children. Mm-hmm. That seems to be a much more plausible explanation. I mean, Edward would want to father children. He would want to propagate his line.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I think the evidence for this is that by the end of 1050, so that's, you know, five years after his marriage to Edith, it's clear that he is maneuvering to divorce her and by implication, remarry. Right. And I think the consequence of this is the first great crisis in English history precipitated by a king's desire to get a new wife. So you alluded to Henry VIII.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
This is where that trend all kicks off.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yeah, so there are two in particular. There's the Earl of Northumberland, which by this point is a Dane called Seward. And people who've read or watched Macbeth may remember that he features in that. Historically, Seward launches two invasions of Scotland against Macbeth and Edward really trusts him. The other is a guy called Leofric. And he is the Earl of Mercia.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And he, again, is one of the kind of English nobles who has profited from the Danish invasion. It's possible that Alf Giffu, who is Canute's first wife, the mother of Harold Harefoot, that she may have been related to him. Well, that would make sense because he'd backed Harefoot, hadn't he, in the succession crisis? Yes. So this is why Leofric is where he is as Earl of Mercia.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And he is probably best known in English folklore as the husband of a woman called Gogifu, which comes to be Godiva, as in Lady Godiva, who rides naked through the streets of Coventry. Yeah.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And it's interesting because Leofric in that is cast as a man who is exacting too many taxes. And it's a reminder again of the fact that in the 11th century, the English are the most heavily taxed people in Western Europe. So it's all about the ability of earls to extract money from people.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He does. Yes, he does. And we talked yesterday about how in France there is this brewing military revolution of which the most prominent symbol is the castle. And actually there are Normans who are given lands in England and who build castles. So one of them is a brother-in-law of Edward.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He's called Ralph and he has the brilliant soubriquet of the timid, which I think is what I would have if I was a Norman lord. And he becomes the Earl of Herefordshire and he builds a castle there. There is also an abbot from a place called Jumiege. He's called Robert. And he is appointed by Edward Bishop of London. And then in 1051, Archbishop of Canterbury.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Well, it goes all the way back to Emma marrying Æthelred. I mean, it's been an ongoing process, but Godwin certainly doesn't like it. And particularly the appointment of Robert of Jumier as Archbishop of Canterbury. He's furious about this because he'd wanted one of his own placement to get the job. And it precipitates a rapid meltdown in relations between Edward and Godwin.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I think the pace of the meltdown is reflective of the fact that Edward is starting to angle now to try and get rid of Edith because he wants children. Right. But it's certainly not helped by the new Archbishop of Canterbury, who is openly and repeatedly snubbing Godwin.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And also lots of the Normans who have come over to London or maybe heading back to Normandy or whatever are disrespecting Godwin. quite seriously, almost as though they're being prompted to, perhaps, by the king. I mean, we don't know. That might be a conspiracy theory too far.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But there's a notorious occasion in August 1051 where there's a massive fracas in Dover when a Norman nobleman and his retinue are supposedly attacked by And Edward is furious about this, and he orders Godwin to go and ravage Dover as a punishment. This is a traditional form of English justice. We talked about how Edgar was always ravaging places that annoyed him.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yeah, hence his nickname, the Peaceable. Exactly. And Godwin refuses. These are his people. He is the Earl, essentially, of southern England. He doesn't want to have to do that. He's put in a completely invidious position, and you can't help thinking that it's a deliberate manoeuvre on the part of Edward's. to force Godwin into a corner.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
The consequence of this is that by September 1051, Godwin and his sons are starting to raise their levies. They're preparing for war. Edward then summons Seward and Leofric, the earls of Northumberland and Mercia, to raise their levies and come to his defence. These two great armies confront each other. They're lined up and But then they hesitate, and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle explains why.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Some of them considered that it would be great folly if they joined battle. Almost all the noblest in England were present in those two companies, and they were convinced that they would be leaving the country open to the invasion of our enemies and be bringing utter ruin upon themselves.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But, I mean, think about it. These are all people who've lived through the Danish conquest. I mean, I'm sure they're thinking of the Vikings rather than the Normans. But, I mean, you know, they know that a house divided is, I mean, it's not a good place to be. So...
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Negotiations are opened and it's agreed that Godwin will come to London in a fortnight's time after this meeting and he will be put in trial. And Godwin agrees and he's planning to go to London with his army. But his levees start to melt away. And even before the two weeks are up, he realises that... He's finished. And so he takes horse, takes ship, heads off to Flanders.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And his wife and sons also flee. So Harold flees to Ireland. The only significant figure of the Godwin family who is left is Edith, Edward's queen. And she is immediately packed off to a nunnery. Edith will say that it was Wilton and will imply that it was a kind of a rather pleasant retirement. But probably she is sent off to another nunnery, which effectively serves as a prison.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So shades of the Merovingians, which we talked about in the Franks.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yes. And so it's not surprising that they are confirmed in more grants of land. Harold has been the Earl of East Anglia. There's now a vacancy. So Leofric's son, Alfgar, he gets that job. So clearly, you know, jobs for the boys. I mean, that's part of the deal. But Edward does have other allies beyond England because, of course, he has all these contacts in Normandy.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And it is now in the wake of Godwin's flight that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle reports a key development. And it's a sentence that has been so discussed, and I'll read it. Then came Duke William from beyond the sea with a great retinue of Frenchmen, and the king received him and as many of his companions as it pleased him. So what does receive mean?
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I think it means slightly more than just, you know, oh, come in and have a drink. It's more kind of, William is almost becoming his vassal. He's offering him kind of pledges of support in a way that affirms Edward's rank as king. But the question then is, well, what has Edward given William in return? And the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle doesn't say, no English source says, but Norman sources say,
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
insists that what Edward has done is to promise William the crown should Edward not have sons. So in the words of David Douglas, who's the author of the definitive recent biography of William, there can be no reasonable doubt that before the end of 1051, he had nominated William of Normandy as his heir.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
A lot of what we know about the reign of Edward, who was crowned at the end of the last episode, And goes on to be called the confessor. Not because he's rushing around confessing to things all the time, which is what people often think. It's because there are multiple Edwards and people haven't yet worked out that you could call them the first, the second, the third or anything like that.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Well, I think that Edward, for as long as he is childless, uses the possibility that he could nominate someone as king as a kind of bargaining chip. In a way, it's almost the strongest card he has to play. Yeah. And I'm fairly sure he does suggest this to William. Yeah. But of course, one of the reasons why he does it is that he is kind of He's looking to get a new wife.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He's looking to have a son. And if he has a son, then no problem. William won't become king. But the problem is, of course, that he doesn't yet have a wife or a son in place.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And you could imagine that if Edward had not had a son, and if this agreement on Edward's part that William became king in his succession had gone through, you could imagine quite a peaceable process of succession that William might well have become king. And the whole process would have been a lot less brutal.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But the thing is that all of this is dependent on Godwin and his family remaining safely in exile. And I guess that if there is a theme of this series, it's the fact that people who are driven into exile always come back. They always come back.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Astonishing comebacks. And this is what happens in August 1052. So the year after Godwin's flight. Godwin has not been twiddling his thumbs. He has been recruiting an enormous fleet. He's been raising an army. And in the summer of 1052... He sails from Flanders with his fleet. Harold, meanwhile, has been raising a fleet in Ireland.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
The two of them meet on the south coast of England and they start kind of ravaging the south coast. And Edward is thrown into a panic. He doesn't have the levies to hand or indeed the fleet because he's actually cut back on the taxes that would have kept the fleet going. Very, very foolish move. And so he's a bit stuck there.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And 14th of September, the Godwins sail up the Thames in triumph, and they dock at the south end of London Bridge, so in Southwark. London is held against them. It's got the great Roman walls. And Edward thinks, well, I can defy them. But the mass of people, not just in London, but across England... You know, they say it's not worth fighting over.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And also, there's quite a lot of resentment of the rumours that Edward has nominated William of Normandy, his heir. People don't like the Normans. They think, I would rather have Godwin than a load of foreigners. And so Edward ultimately finds himself with no choice but to welcome the Godwins back. And Godwin... plays it very cool. You know, he doesn't humiliate the king. He kneels before him.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He begs his royal forgiveness. He insists that he'd been misrepresented and is innocent of all the charges against him. And Edward has no choice but to accept this. And both Godwin and Harold are restored to their respective earldoms. And Edith returns in triumph from her exile and imprisonment in her nunnery back to her husband's side.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I think this is a much better way of doing it. I agree. So Alfred the Great's son was called Edward. So he's Edward the Elder. And then we had Edward the Martyr. And Edward the Confessor is someone who is a saint but hasn't been martyred, basically.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
There she is, an anointed queen by the side of her husband, the anointed king. And clearly this means that there is now no more talk of divorce, which in turn probably means that there is no more prospect of Edward having an heir. And the life of King Edward changes. I mean, it celebrates this in delighted tones. The whole country settled down in peaceful tranquility.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But of course, the question is, will this peaceful tranquility hold? And I guess you could say that the legacy of the Godwins' exile and return is threefold. So firstly, the Godwins are now absolutely secure as the greatest dynasty in England. Edith, as we said, is now secure as queen. So no real prospect of them having children now.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And of course, there are these reports, a consequence of the Godwins' exile, that Edward has promised William the throne. So you can see that is quite a combustible blend of circumstances.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yeah. And as you said, it comes from the life of King Edward, which, remember, is commissioned by Edith, his queen. And so her fingerprints are all over this account. And this life has two particular goals. And the first is to cast Edward as essentially a saintly figure, a confessor. And the second is to associate herself, Edith, with this saintliness.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yes. Brilliant. But that passage that you read comes from a life of Edward the Confessor.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And this is why after this life has described how Edward sponsors the building of his great Abbey at Westminster. It then goes on to describe how Edith rebuilt Wilton, you know, where she'd been raised and this, this kind of great center of West Saxon holiness and, to rebuild this abbey in stone. And that is kind of essentially casting her as her husband's partner in godliness.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And what the life does not do when it recounts Edward's building of Westminster Abbey is to point out that he's also building an enormous palace. So pretty much where the Houses of Parliament are now. So essentially it's an enormous royal complex built But she doesn't want that mentioned because it slightly detracts from the sense of him as a man utterly devoted to God.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And likewise, it's this life, which we said before, which insists that Edward willingly consecrates himself to virginity. And I think that we can see reasons for that that have nothing to do with Edward supposedly not allowing Edith into his bed.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Probably written in the immediate aftermath of his death early in 1066 and almost certainly commissioned by his queen, who is a woman called Edith, and who just happens to be the sister of Harold. So you can see that this is certain. I think these are pretty objective people, to be fair. Yes.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Because essentially, by saying that Edward has consecrated himself to chastity, it's veiling the failure of Edith to give him a child, which is the prime responsibility of a queen. It doesn't matter how unfair that is. Essentially, you've failed as a queen. And also it associates her with this kind of saintly project of chastity because by extension, she is a virgin as a result.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And so it makes them look good too. Yes. So the life, even as it's celebrating Edward as this kind of otherworldly figure who spends his whole time hanging out with monks, it's emphasising how Harold and Tostig are, you know, and all his other brothers, he's got hundreds of brothers, how they are setting their shoulder to the wheel and labouring hard in the cause of England. And in fact...
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
It's clear, even from the life of King Edward, that he's not spending his whole time with monks. Even the life has to admit that actually he's spending most of his time hunting. It's clear that Edward essentially has been sidelined, that he's become a bit of a cipher, but he's really not spending his whole time confessing. He's killing a lot of deer.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I think this sense of Edward that the life is promoting as a man almost kind of too good for the world is heightened by a dramatic development in 1053. And if people going into exile and coming back is one theme of this series, then another is people at meals unexpectedly dying of choking fits. So this happens at Easter in 1053. Godwin is with the king in Winchester at a great Easter feast.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I mean, who knows? Yeah, I don't think there's any hint. And it doesn't really alter Edward's position because he has no choice but to appoint Harold as Earl of Wessex. That's the moment where we began this series. And I think actually it kind of makes him look even weaker because there's a sense of a generational shift. This new generation of earls, Harold and so on, are stepping up to the plate.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And Edward looks kind of elderly and decrepit and a bit out of the loop.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I'd agree there's kind of balance of power there. But then in 1055, so that's only two years after the death of Godwin, there's another dramatic development because Seward dies, the Earl of Northumbria. People just keep dying in history, don't they? It's an occupational hazard of being an 11th century Earl, I think. Right.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Well, you say that, except that Harold is not the only member of his family to be praised in the life of King Edward, because there is also his younger brother, Tostig Godwinson. And Tostig, like Harold, is an earl, and he's described in the life of King Edward as a man endowed with very great and prudent restraint, although occasionally he was a little overzealous in attacking evil.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And the huge question is who is going to succeed Seward as Earl of Northumbria? And Harold leans on Edward, Edith leans Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
and with bold and inflexible constancy of mind. And we will see in due course today whether that is a fair description or not.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Thank you. , , , , , , the P P P P P P P P P,實, ac , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a a a a a a a a aut P P P P P P Right. So the North is a pretty tough place to keep in order. It's poorer than the South. It's notoriously violent. So according to the life of King Edward, travelling parties of people up to 20 or 30 are regularly being kind of ambushed, robbed, murdered.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Well, he is an astonishing example of social mobility. And he's a classic example of how in periods of chaos and change and disaster for lots of people, some can find opportunity. And so to look at how he emerges to this astonishing position of predominance in England, We need to go back to 1016, the conquest of England by Cnut and the Danes.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
You have the King of Scotland, who's an increasingly menacing presence beyond the border. And even the women in Northumbria think nothing of sticking the heads of captured Scotsmen on poles. So it's a frightening, intimidating place if you're from the South. I mean, very different today, obviously.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I think because of this, because Tostig, who's been raised in the South, essentially sees it as a terrifying place full of intimidating women and Scotsmen and all kinds of horrors. Essentially, he doesn't go there very often and he leaves his own placement to organise it and run it for him. And it prevents him from forging the kind of personal links that an Earl needs to have.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And his character also is not as charming. He's not as adroit. He's not as kind of calculating, I think, as either his elder brother, Harold, or his father, Godwin. And even the life of King Edward admits this. So it writes, renowned for his courage and cunning, but also possessed of an often fiery temper, he had tended to respond to hints of restiveness with all the forcefulness he could muster.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yeah. And the problem is, is that he's putting up taxes as the service that he's providing as an Earl is going into rapid decline because the King of Scotland, Malcolm, so as in Macbeth, the King who has succeeded Macbeth, you know, he can send opportunity and... Throughout this decade, the decade of Tostig's earldom, Scottish raids are becoming more and more regular and more and more punitive.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So Lindisfarne, the Holy Island, where Cuthbert had been the abbot, that gets sacked. Cumbria is annexed. By the Scots. By the Scots. And I mean, this is infuriating for the Northumbrians. Yeah. You know, they're having to pay all these taxes and yet the Scots are endlessly coming down and kind of, you know, looting them and killing them and it's not good.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And had Tostig been in Northumbria more often, he would have been able to read the runes. I mean, literally, because there's quite a lot of runes up there. Oh, Tom, that's a great metaphor. Well done. But he doesn't. And as a result, on the 3rd of October 1065, a group of rebels against Tostig's rule arrived wipe out his placement in York and capture the city. He's taken completely by surprise.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And the consequence of Cnut's triumph is not just the toppling of the Curdecingas, the traditional ruling West Saxon dynasty, but also the replacement of large numbers of English eldermen, the guys who are in charge of the various counties and regions in England, by Danish jarls or earls as they come to be.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He has no idea that this was coming. And it's evident from what then happens that this conspiracy has been very carefully planned, very carefully coordinated. And so Tostig's adherents across Northumbria are targeted for elimination. And the Northumbrians proclaim as their new Earl, a son of Alfgar. So that's the grandson of Leofric, the Earl of Mercia. And this is a guy called Morcar.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I mean, Morcar is a Mercian. He has nothing to do with Northumbria. But clearly the rebels in Northumbria have decided that the dynasty of Leofric is the only one that can kind of basically go toe to toe with the Godwins.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And it's quite subterranean, I think, in the sources. But when you look for it, you see it everywhere. And definitely this is what's happening here. So down south, Harold and Tostig are with their sister and King Edward in Wilton. So again, Wilton, the Salisbury area.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
The centre of action, where they've assembled for the dedication of Edith's great stone abbey that she's been building. That's a parallel to Westminster Abbey. And Harold... Harold immediately rides north to try and negotiate with Edwin and Morka and the Northumbrian rebels. Because by this point, they've all joined forces and they're marching southwards.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And Harold meets with the rebels at Northampton. And the rebels say, we, you know, we're not going to have Tostig anymore as Earl. Strip him of his powers, exile him from England. He's a shocker. We don't want him. And Harold desperately tries to save his brother. I don't think there's any doubt about that. But the rebels are having none of it.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And so Harold returns to Edward, who is still in the Salisbury area, at a place called a village called Britford, where one of my friends from school lived. And Harold says, look, it's not looking good. I'm really sorry. I think Tostig is going to have to go. And Tostig is furious about this and madly thinks that Harold is in on the conspiracy as well. I mean, he's completely lost it.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
and demands that Harold raise the levies of Wessex and goes to oppose Edwin and Morcar and the Northumbrians. But there's no way Harold can do this. It would be fateful for England, but it would obviously be fateful for the Godwinsons, and it would be fateful for his prospects as king of England. And he knows, of course, also that William is lurking across the channel. So he refuses.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And Tostig has no choice but to go into exile. So 1st of November, he, his wife, his thanes leave England for exile in Flanders. And Tostig's wife is a daughter of the Count of Flanders. He can kind of expect a welcome there. And the shock of this, this completely unexpected kind of bust up has come from lightning from a clear blue sky, has a very bad effect on Edward, whose health worsens.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
He goes into a decline. And so as the year 1065 draws to a close and the year 1066 starts looming on the horizon, edward increasingly seems near death and this is the point dominic at which we end this series but with all kinds of questions hanging in the air will the new year bring edward's death if it does who will become england's new king harold William, or perhaps someone entirely else?
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But there is one Englishman who is appointed to a position of high rank by Canute early in his reign. And I'm quoting here from the life of King Edward, a man judged by the king, most cautious in council and active in war. And this is Godwin. Right. Who is simply an obscure thane from Sussex. He has no real pedigree at all. And in fact, his father had been arraigned by Æthelred on a charge.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
That's right, Dominic. And then when we've done that, we will be back with the story of 1066 itself. The invasion led by Harold Hardrada and then the invasion led by William Duke of Normandy. So lots more to come. But in the meanwhile, thanks very much for listening. Bye bye. Goodbye.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
We're not sure exactly what. Right. And he's very cross about this. And he commandeers 20 ships from Æthelred's fleet. And basically he kind of turns Viking. He goes off kind of raiding the south coast of England. And it may be that this is how Godwin meets Canute. That because he's essentially turned Viking, maybe he meets the real Vikings. Maybe Canute recognises a kindred spirit. Yeah.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But certainly once Canute has become king, Godwin's rise is astonishingly rapid. So in 1020, Canute, who up until that point had been serving as Earl of Wessex himself, you know, he's got a large empire to rule. So he doesn't really want to shoulder that burden. So he gives it to Godwin, who becomes Earl of Wessex. Also, he marries him to his own sister-in-law, a Danish woman called Githa.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And in consequence of that, you called Harold the last true-born king of England. But I mean, he is half Danish, as is Tostig, as is Edith. So we think of them as the embodiments of Anglo-Saxon England, I guess, because they're ruling and living in the twilight of Anglo-Saxon England. But they are also evidence of the way in which England is an inextricable part of the Danish world as well.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yes, and it works for him because by the time Canute dies in 1035, he is... indisputably the most powerful magnate in the kingdom. I mean, he is a figure whose support is key for anyone who wants to rule as king. And it is evidence of these powers of resourcefulness, of prudence, of opportunism, of charm. that the life of King Edward alludes to.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And, you know, this is essentially his own daughter praising him. But clearly the proof of these qualities is the fact that he's able to survive the shipwreck of Athelred's fortunes, profit from them, and then survive this kind of seesaw chain of succession with Canute, his two sons, and then Edward. So Godwin shows an unbelievable talent for swimming with the tide.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So first of all, he backs Emma and half of Canute in the wake of Canute's death. Then when it's clear that Harold Harefoot is going to be king, he switches sides. When Alfred, Emma's son by Æthelred, lands, and people who listened to our previous episode will remember that Alfred gets seized along with his retinue. They all get kind of scalped, blinded, chained up, whatever.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And Alfred himself is blinded and dies of his wounds. The guy who is responsible for this is Godwin. It is Godwin who supervises essentially the kind of the slaughter of Alfred and his retinue and supervises the guy who is the brother of Edward, who is going to become king. He's blinding in Ely. And then when Harthacnut becomes king, Godwin very smoothly moves back to serving him.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But his most startling switchback is still to come because it is Godwin who plays the leading role in finessing the restoration of the original West Saxon ruling line to the English throne in the form of Edward the Confessor. And just to reiterate, it's startling. Partly because Godwin has inherited this grudge from his father against Ethelred. Yeah.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
More obviously because his entire status as the most powerful magnate in England entirely derives from Danish rule and from the fact that Ethelred's family have been expelled. And above all, I guess, because he's the guy who blinded and essentially killed Edward's brother.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Yeah, so it requires both of them to play politics. It's a bit like, I suppose, Starmer bending the knee to Trump, even though he obviously hates him. Sometimes you have to do stuff to get on in geopolitics. And this is kind of what's happening because they both have every reason for arriving at an accommodation because both depend on the other.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So when Edward becomes king, Godwin is highly respectful. He gives him an absolutely magnificent warship, which is all ornamented with gold and has a kind of crew of 80 warriors who are all wearing gilded armour. And in turn, Edward confirms Godwin in his rank as Earl of Wessex, which of course is what Godwin wants. And more than that, he promotes Godwin's sons.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So Harold, for instance, even though he's only just 20 by this point, he becomes the Earl of East Anglia, which is a hugely powerful position. And it means that Godwin and his sons are ruling a large swathe of England, albeit under the... you know, the headship of Edward.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
But there's a sense in which that's quite a nominal headship, because as you pointed out, Edward doesn't really have the contacts and the affinities that a king who had grown up in England would automatically have had. He seems almost like a foreigner, I think.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Right. And for Godwin, it means that should Edith bear Edward's sons, then there's every chance that his grandson will be King of England. So, I mean, it's an incredible prize. Now, Edith herself is a very, very impressive woman. So I'm delighted to say that she was educated at Wilton, the great nunnery there. So she's not being, you know, she's not being ready to be a nun.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
It's more like a kind of very expensive boarding school. She's very learned in music, in mathematics, in astronomy. She's supposed to have spoken five languages. So her native English, Danish, it got from her mother, Latin, French, and brilliantly Irish. She's very skilled at embroidery.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And she is described admittedly by this life of King Edward that she herself has sponsored as being ineffably beautiful. I'm sure she was. Yeah. So anyway, I was kind of reading The Life of King Edward when we got our little kittens that would grow up to become Tostig and Edith. And I called our girl cat Edith because I was reading about this. She's ineffably beautiful.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And there's this wonderful description of her. Edith, gem-like on the kingdom's breast, all virtues friend. So that's how I like to think of my cat. But no Harold, Tom. No, so we did have a Harold as well, but he ran away. Oh, crikey. Yeah, really sad. So he got lost. Right. So we just have Tostig and Edith.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I think that it does Edith, my cat, great credit to have been named after this remarkable queen. She's very, very formidable. And on royal charters, the moment that she has been crowned, she is appearing kind of second to Edward himself. Yeah.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I guess for the people of England, her presence beside Edward on his throne is a kind of moving symbol of this reconciliation between King and the great magnate who had put all England in his shadow, undertaken for the good of the English people and well befitting a Christian king with the care of his people uppermost in his mind. Right. But there is a cloud, right?
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Right. And the years go by, so four, five, six years, and still Edith hasn't given Edward an heir. It's harsh to blame it on Edith, Tom. Well, it might be Edward's fault, it might be Edith's. The truth is that this is a marriage that has prompted enormous speculation. And I guess that there are probably two principal theories as to why Edith does not give Edward a son.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And the first of these, which is first mentioned by an English historian writing at Malmesbury called William, William of Malmesbury. I mean, he's very much, I think, like you in your children's book mode. He loves the story. And, you know, if there's a kind of entertaining perspective to adopt, he will absolutely adopt it. Oh, thanks, Tom. That's kind. And he's very patriotic.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
So the kind of, yeah, the Dominic Sandbrook of the 12th century. So William of Malmesbury's theory is that Edward is consumed with such hatred and resentment of Godwin that he can't bear to sleep with Godwin's daughter. That Edith may be ineffably beautiful and brilliant at speaking Irish and embroidery and stuff, but he doesn't care. He doesn't have anything to do with her.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Can't bear to be touched by her.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
Well, possible support for this theory has been adduced in the life of King Edward, where it says that Edward has consecrated himself to chastity. Okay. So maybe that's Edith's way of saying, well, you know, there were slight problems. But I think there's another reason for that that we'll come to in due course.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
And I would also just throw in here the opinion of Pauline Stafford, who is the great expert on 11th century English queens. And she says it is futile to speculate on the sex drives or sexuality of 11th century kings from such sparse and partial evidence.
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551. The Road to 1066: Countdown to Conquest (Part 4)
I'm not sure that's true. I think we've repeatedly said that we can't impose kind of 21st century standards of sexual psychology.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
So that was Klaus Kinski, the great German actor, as Lope de Aguirre in the film Aguirre, the Wrath of God, which was made in 1972, directed by Funster Werner Herzog. And Loosely based on, I mean, one of the most remarkable episodes of European exploration in history, a 16th century Spanish band of conquistadors venturing into the Amazon rainforest in search of El Dorado. And it doesn't end well.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
What is the structure of control? Does it just depend on his charisma or...?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Because I suppose in a jungle where you have no idea what the landmarks are, Distance just becomes an abstraction and no proper map.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
But I mean, it's ridiculous to be squeamish, as you said, because to just dump him on the side of the river, I mean, is a death sentence anyway. Probably more merciful to kill him. That would be my attitude.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And it's one of the maddest films ever made, partly because, of course, the Conquistadors speak in German and we know that they would have spoken in English. But also, Dominic, I guess because it ranks alongside Francis Ford's Coppola's attempt to finish Apocalypse Now as a kind of cinematic folie de grandeur, doesn't it? It does indeed. Because they go into the jungle and it's all terrible.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I was going to ask about her. What's her fate?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I mean, these don't seem the kind of guys who would necessarily be 100% chivalrous towards the mistress of someone they've just killed.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
So I've got a question, which is, this is a highly dangerous expedition. Everyone knows that there's disease and wild animals and people with blowpipes and all that kind of stuff. Why would they ever confess to having murdered this guy? Why don't they just say, oh, he died of some disease or something?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I mean, again, he's not wrong, is he?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I mean, there is a kind of Shakespearean quality to this, where it's the villain who speaks the truth, like kind of Richard III or Iago or whoever.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And Herzog tries to kill Kinski. Kinski's going mad. He's got his great bulging eyeballs. Yeah. The making of the film is carnage. It is.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
The more I like him and the more I think I would have rallied behind him.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I'm aware that it doesn't end well.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Okay, so it's been an absolute pleasure jaunt up until now. But in the second half, we will find out how, as Dominic just said, the nightmare begins. Hello, welcome back to The Rest is History. We are with Aguirre, the wrath of God, the traitor, El Loco, the madman, the epithets are piling up and Dominic, none of them are good.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And none of them are looking good for Don Fernando, who is in nominal charge, has just been proclaimed by Aguirre, basically Lord of the whole of South America. So he must be feeling pretty pleased, but I'm guessing... I don't know, just something telling me he's not going to be around for long.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Well, I'm not sure about that, actually. I mean, being proactive is better than just sitting there and being eaten by leeches and dying. In the middle of nowhere.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Because he's clearly the most hardened man in the camp. And he doesn't care.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
That's what it is. That's exactly what it is.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And the sources, are they Castilian or Basque?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Less mad. I mean, more like Unai Emery, the Basque manager of Aston Villa.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
But I would follow a twinkle-eyed, charismatic leader of men in a tracksuit. Or actually, Emery's very kind of dapper. Yeah, he never wears a tracksuit.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
So all those books with kind of giant spaceships.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
How long have they been in the jungle?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I am the great traitor. There must be no other. Anyone who even thinks about deserting this mission will be cut up into 98 pieces. Whoever takes one grain of corn or one drop of water more than his ration will be locked up for 155 years. If I, Aguirre, want the birds to drop dead from the trees, then the birds will drop dead from the trees. I am the wrath of God.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I mean, it is very Heart of Darkness, so very reminiscent of the series we just did on the Congo. But we've also just done an episode on Dr. John Dee, Elizabeth I's kind of great magus. Yeah. And his great ambition is to track down secrets that will unleash untold wealth.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And on the other hand, so kind of revoltingly unspeakable that you'd think someone wouldn't make that up.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
And the whole Eldorado quest, this sense that there is a golden ruler, a golden city lost somewhere in the jungle, and that if only you can find it, then you will be unspeakably rich. This also is part of the Aguirre story.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I think he's reached a certain level of madness a few pages back, to be honest. Do you? I think he's reached a certain level of madness several minutes ago.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Just endless stuff about tax returns and things. Exactly.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Does it have to mean anything?
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
I mean, you could say that he kills her to preserve her honour and say that she, you know, a fate worse than death. I mean, I guess that's how you could frame it. I mean, that's how he's casting it. And there is clearly a very magical realist quality to the whole story.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Well, Dominic, what an eerie note on which to end. And what a week it's been. We've had angelic voices and we have had the fires of demons. And in a sense, we will be having both next week because we are back with season three of the French Revolution.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
money to impress philip ii and you can see why this scenario would appeal to a science fiction writer yeah it's a kind of staple isn't it the new colony on a distant planet yeah full of gun runners and smugglers and desperados that's exactly what it is all i think we should assume that almost everybody in this story who we mentioned at this point almost has an enormous scar running from their eyebrow right down to their chin or something
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
The earth I pass will see me and tremble. Whoever follows me on the river will win untold riches. We will control all of New Spain and we will stage history as others stage plays. I, the wrath of God, will marry my own daughter and with her found the purest dynasty ever known to man. Together we will rule the whole of this continent. I am the wrath, the wrath of God.
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543. Death in the Amazon: Aguirre, the Wrath of God
Why doesn't he wait to fix them?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
But then it all changes, of course, in the summer of 1941, because on the 22nd of June, Hitler launches Operation Barbarossa. And suddenly the Soviet Union goes from being effectively Hitler's ally to Britain's ally, doesn't it? Yes. And that changes the whole story for the Poles who are in the Soviet Union.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Both Vincent and I shouted a warning to the gunners that a bear was going towards them, but nobody responded. The bear went up to the trail legs of the artillery gun and placed a shell on the ground. The bear then went back into the wood and reappeared with another shell. By this time, we'd realised that the bear was tame and most likely a circus bear. We just went on our way.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Brilliant. I have to say, I've actually got two different friends who have grandparents, I think, who were involved in that movement of people. So I've got a friend called Matt Kelly, who's a historian, and my friend Anna as well. And they are unbelievable stories. I mean, these people who were deported east from the Polish borderlands, they went to Russia, then crossing the Caspian Sea,
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
going across Iran, going across the Middle East. And then often people would end up in, some people ended up in Africa. Some people ended up in Britain. I mean, it is mind boggling. It's like something from a science fiction book or something. And so little known in this country, isn't it? Yeah. Although there's actually quite a few people in Britain.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
That was John Clark. And in April 1944, he was serving with the Black Watch in the Monte Cassino campaign, one of the most celebrated campaigns of the Second World War, the Battle for Italy. And he is remembering an incident near the village of Acqua Fondata, which is six miles from Monte Cassino. And he and his comrade Vincent were foraging for food.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
There's a kind of Anglo-Polish community with roots in this movement of people, in this mass migration. But anyway, it's an incredible story. And this is the point where Wojtek enters the story, when the bear finally appears. So how does the bear turn up?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And it's these guys in the second transport company who give the bear its name, right? Which is... Wojtek, which is a sort of diminutive of Wojciech, which is a proper Polish name.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And that story, Tom, which you have quoted, it's actually quoted by Eileen Orr in her book, Wojtek the Bear.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Yeah, they're probably not close to that, yeah.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
polish war hero and as you say in your notes it's like an armored bear from philip pullman's stories the last episode we were talking about the fate of poland we talked a lot about danzig gdansk there's a brilliant museum of the second world war in uh gdansk and as is my want when i went there with sambra jr we went to the shop to look for merch
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
What's he doing with it? What interest does he have?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Right, everyone else is doing it. You do it, right?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Crikey, what a cliffhanger. So let's take a break and we will return with Wojtek's heroism at the Battle for Monte Cassino.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And they didn't have very much, I have to say, but what they did have was dozens of copies of a children's book in Polish about this bear, Wojtek, who is an absolute folk hero in Poland, isn't he? And a symbol of Polish resistance and Polish heroism in the Second World War.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
General Oliver Leese had earmarked the Poles for the key role of capturing the Monte Cassino Massif. He had sensed a fire and a pride in the bellies of the Poles that suggested they might be more willing to take on this toughest of nuts than other units in Eighth Army.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Visiting General Wladyslaw Anders, the Polish Corps commander, on the 24th of March, Lise quoted his proposal in very clear terms, that what he was offering would be immeasurably challenging, but was also a singular honour and indicative of the respect he had for the General and his men.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Anders was well aware that the Abbey had not been taken in two months of bitter fighting and that it had eluded the efforts of battle-hardened and highly experienced troops. I realised that the cost in lives must be heavy, he later wrote, but I realised too the importance of the capture of Monte Cassino to the Allied cause and most of all to that of Poland.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
So that was the immortal prose of James Holland. brother of the lesser known Holland podcasting star. And that's from James's book, Casino 44, Five Months of Hell in Italy. And that reminds us, actually, Monte Cassino is not just any back of the Second World War. It is regarded as one of the most difficult because it's the hinge of a German defensive line called the Gustav Line.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And the Allies have to break it to get to Rome. And on the summit of Monte Cassino is this monastery that was founded by St. Benedict, Tom.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
I mean, this must be absolutely terrifying, traumatising for Wojtek. I mean, he's just been having larks in the desert, showers and stuff. Yeah, cigarettes. Yeah. So what does he make of all this?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
So, I mean, this is a pretty serious business. And amazingly, I guess partly because he's at the back, right, because he's helping to load the guns. He's not in the forefront of the action. But he doesn't get hit at all. Am I right?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
How this is not a Hollywood film, I do not know. I don't know how.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
But this isn't the end of the fighting, right? I mean, for Wojtek, or the 22nd Company, because they're still battling their way through Italy. Well, they end up fighting right up to the end of the war, till April 1945. And Wojtek is always in the thick of it, isn't he?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
It's actually a terrible story, this. It's just as bad a betrayal as what happened just before the war, because the British completely pulled the rug out from under the Polish government in exile. I guess they would say it's real polity, we have no choice. And with the Polish army, they basically wanted to get rid of them, didn't they? They really hoped they would all just go back
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And the people love him, do they? They're delighted. They think he's a tremendous person.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And I suppose, Tommy, if you were trying to sort of give this story a bit of profundity, not that it needs it, you might say... There's a kind of, this is Poland's story in microcosm. People have lost touch with their families. Every family in Poland has been scarred by grief and loss and trauma. And in a way, Piotr having lost touch with Wojtek.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Oh, poor Wojtek. It's a bittersweet story, I suppose, isn't it, Tom?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Yeah, I mean, they've lost everything. They've lost their families, they've lost their homeland, and they can pour a lot of that emotion into their relationship with this, as you said, this innocent bear.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
None of these were military bears. None of these were fighting bears. And Wojtek is a fighting bear. Wojtek is a military bear.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Well, Tom, that was amazing. A brilliant story. Very moving story. Actually, I didn't expect it to be such a moving story. I find it a really moving story. And it was the perfect coda to the grim story of the fall of Poland in 1939. So that's the story of Wojtek the Bear. If you're Polish, of course, there are loads of children's books you can look that up in.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
And a shout out to the most amazing book on Poland's experience in the Second World War, which we talked about a lot, which is Halek Kuchanski's book, The Eagle Unbowed. But next week, we will be back with something completely different. Because I've heard a rumor that the previous translations of Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars have been superseded. Is that correct, Tom? Am I right in hearing this?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
It's not for me to say, Dominic. That a new translation by an unknown author of Suetonius' Twelve Caesars is about to hit the bookshelves. And to celebrate this... The author himself on his podcast will be taking us into a series on the sex secrets of the Caesars. And we'll be looking not just at Suetonius XII Caesars itself, but also at the lives of Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
So a complete change of tone and I suspect a slightly more lubricious style of of podcasting next week when we return with the romans so on that bombshell tom thank you so much that was absolutely wonderful and we'll see you all next time bye-bye bye-bye
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
No waiting in line with people who are sick with who knows what. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical, healthcare just got less painful.
The Rest Is History
533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
Winnie the Pooh was this... Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. But the real Winnie the Pooh, as in Winnipeg, never saw action. Is that right?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
So there's a big difference with Wojtek.
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
All right, let's put it back into the context. Let's pick up in a way from where we ended that series. So Poland was defeated swiftly by the Nazis, Warsaw taken, and then Poland was divided up and Poland vanishes from the map of Europe. But of course, a lot of the Polish army have escaped, haven't they? They've crossed the border into Romania. And a lot of Poles who are scattered...
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
are determined to continue the struggle, aren't they? They have not yet given up their government in exile and so on. So how does Wojtek sort of fit into that story?
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533. Wojtek: The Bear Who Beat the Nazis
We were making our way through the deserted fields looking for stray hens and eggs when a nearby artillery unit opened fire. We went to look and found a battery of Polish gunners setting up for a barrage. The gun sight was hidden in a clearing within a large wood. As we watched, suddenly out of the wood came a large bear walking on its hind legs. It seemed to be carrying something.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Ethelred's authority the symbols of his authority and he heads for where else for Wiltshire and the Salisbury area he does yeah he does so he first of all lands in Devon but he storms and burns Exeter and then he marches on my own native county of Wiltshire and it's county town of Wilton
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And Wilton is one of the great symbols of the authority of the Cur de Kingas, the dynasty of Alfred the Great, and particularly of its women. So Wilton is the site of an abbey that lies under the particular protection of the royal women of the royal dynasty. And so to attack it in a way is to insult Æthelred's masculinity, his inability to defend the property of his women.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And it has a kind of great spiritual potency. So two sisters of Athelstan, the first king of United England had been nuns there. And in 955, this is very interesting for me, one of the brothers of Athelstan who had ruled in succession to him as king had granted to the nuns of Wilton two villages in the nearby Chalk Valley.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
One of them was a village called Bower Chalk and the other was a village called Broad Chalk. And that's where I grew up. So this is very much my neck of the woods. And it means that I have a particular devotion to the memory of this great abbey. And one of the great saints of the Cur de Kingas had also been there. So this is Edgar's daughter, Edith, and therefore the half-sister of Athelred.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
She'd been very devout, very holy, much loved by the locals for her kind of kindness and generosity. But she'd also been celebrated for her tremendous dress sense. by far the most stylishly dressed nun in England. And she had been criticised for this, but God demonstrated his approval of her kind of sassy dress sense by making a burning torch drop into the great chest where she kept her clothes.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the chest got kind of, you know, blackened, but her clothes completely survived. So it was a spectacular miracle. Yeah, that must have definitely happened. Well, you may scoff, Dominic, but when she dies, she's only kind of in her late twenties. The memory of this extraordinary miracle is such that she is enshrined as a saint. So what do you say? What do you make of that?
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I think it's bonkers, but I mean... God, honestly, mercy and skepticism.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I look down on them. Well, I think that reflects poorly on you. And maybe you would have been at one with Svein. I would. I would have thrown my lot in with Svein straight away. Svein is marching on Wilton. He's marching on... Wiltshire and the Salisbury area, and they heard of a marauding, hairy band of Vikings.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And of course, it's the duty of the elder men of Wiltshire, a guy called Alfrick, to stop them, to preserve this great symbol of West Saxon royal power. And he arrives on the crest of the hill looking down at Wilton. He sees the Viking horde. All his men are lined up waiting for him to sound the battle trump. And instead, he's so terrified that he voids his bowel and vomits all over the soil.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
That's what I associate with people from that neck of the woods, Tom. That's the behaviour that I've come to recognise. He runs away. And Svein torches Wilton, loots the Abbey of its gold. And of course, you know, this is devastating to Athelred in every way. Right. He's lost the money and he's been humiliated. This great symbol of his power has been devastated. And Svein
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
makes sure to extort everything that he can. And ultimately, you know, he only leaves in 1004 after Ethelred has given him yet more Danegeld.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And they capture the archbishop. They lock him up in a cage and they keep him there for six months. And then they hold a great celebratory feast at Greenwich, kind of down river from London. At Easter. Yeah, Easter Saturday. Yeah. And they get absolutely wasted. And they've been eating mighty haunches of beef. And there are great skulls of oxen and bones and stuff.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And they all start pelting the archbishop with these bones. And the poor guy dies.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And this is, again, to emphasise, just abject humiliation for Æthelred. I mean, it's bad enough to see the Great Abbey patronised by the women of your dynasty wiped out. But to have the Archbishop of your kingdom pelted to death with ox bones, I mean, it doesn't get worse than that, really.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
It does. And this is where I think the revisionism on Ethered gets it wrong. He has shown that he can fight. I mean, he invaded Scotland. He launched an attack on Normandy. Spoiler alert, his elder son will show that it's perfectly possible to raise troops and to fight. So why doesn't he do it in a convincing and effective way? I suspect that the humiliations heaped on him
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Has broken his prestige and the resentment of him as a man who just keeps extorting money and handing it over. Yeah. Is kind of corroding the willingness of people to kind of go the extra length for him. People basically think he's a loser and they don't want to back him up. People do think he's a loser.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I thought a nice compliment to the reading from your own book on this subject with which we ended the previous episode. So a nice segue.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And where I think it is reasonable to say that Ethelred is unlucky is just to emphasise the fact that he is up against something new with this. Hmm. The fact that Denmark is a state rather than a kind of consortium of raiders, I think this is something that he hasn't properly clocked, but he really should have done by this point. He should have fought. And in 1012, I think Ethered decides...
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
The policy's not working. What I need to do is to try and specifically buy off some of these raiders and employ them as my mercenaries. And he targets Thorkell the Tall, this guy who had captured the Archbishop of Canterbury. Gives him another massive bribe and wins Thorkell over together with 45 ships. But the problem is that this policy, which may be...
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
10 or 20 years before, would have worked is a failure because it just makes Svein alarmed. He doesn't want to think of Æthelred teaming up with someone as formidable as Thorkell. So he decides, the time has come for me to invade. As he had done with Olaf Tryggvason, so with Æthelred, he's been playing a very long game. His policy with Æthelred has been to bleed him dry of the lifeblood of silver,
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And then to close in for decapitation. And so in 1013, that is what he does. He sails up the Humber Estuary with a huge invasion force. And the Humber Estuary, effectively, if you're facing Vikings from across the North Sea, is like a dagger point.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yeah, he's been planning it. And now the moment has come. And he... Combines menace with overtures to the local aristocracy in Mercia. And they are so battle scarred and weary that they start accepting Svein's terms and handing over hostages, offering homage to Svein. By the end of that year, 1013, Æthelred is effectively staring down the barrel. He no longer has the run of his country.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He's bottled himself up with Thorkell in London, but he knows that he can't hold out for long, that the whole country now effectively is submitting to the Danish king. And so he orders his queen, the Lady Emma, who is, of course, the sister of the Duke of Normandy, go on board a ship and to take with her their three children. So there's two boys, Edward and Alfred, and a girl called Giffu.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And once they're on the ship to set sail for Normandy.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Exactly. Athelred still can't quite bring himself to endure the humiliation of seeking sanctuary with the Duke of Normandy. So instead, he leaves London and he kind of hangs out on the Isle of Wight, spends Christmas there. And it's miserable because effectively he is now the Viking. His court has shrunk to his fleet. And in the new year, he kind of gives up.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And in the dying days of 1013, so in the days immediately after Christmas, he decides, oh, this is hopeless. And he too sets sail for the Norman court.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Well, he dies and there are conflicting accounts about what exactly happens to him. So some say that he died in his sleep. Others that he fell off his horse and smashed his head. Others say that he was killed by St. Edmund, the King of East Anglia, who back in the time of King Alfred had been shot to death by pagan Vikings and had since been enshrined as the great patron saint of the East Angles.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
That St. Edmund had appeared to St. Forkbeard in a dream and struck him with a pole and that had finished him off.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
What I will also say is, again, over the course of this story, people dying unexpectedly. And often it's mentioned at feasts. Again, this is an enduring theme and people might want to ponder whether perhaps foul play was an operation, but we don't know. Anyway, so Svein Fortbeard is now off the scene.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And so the Witan, this great assembly of the elder men, the men who lead the various counties in England, They get together and they decide, actually, maybe we should get Æthelred back. And the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle gives the details of the invitation they send to Æthelred. They said, no sovereign was dearer to them than their natural lord. If only he would govern them better than him.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So Thorkell's now back with the Danes. Yes, but there's a Norwegian on the scene, a guy called Olaf Haraldsson. And Dominic, we'll be hearing about him again soon. He's a very stout man. Very stout, yes. And very saintly in the long run, despite being very murderous. So Olaf Haraldsson helps capture London for Athelred from the Danes. He sails up the Thames and he pulls down London Bridge.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I'm never entirely sure how pulling down London Bridge helps him, but he does. And there is a thesis that this is the origins of the nursery rhyme, London Bridge is falling down. The other great champion of the English resistance to the Danes is Æthelred's eldest son. So that's not by Emma, but by a previous queen. And this is a guy called Edmund.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He had scorned to flee England when Æthelred and his sons by Emma had gone. He'd stayed in England. He's very charismatic. He's very brave. And he's so formidable in battle that he wins the nickname of Ironside. He's a tremendous man, isn't he? And actually, you could say he is the last English king in the sense that he is the last king to rule who is of purely English descent.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
In fact, yes, more toilet-based deaths are approaching. But for now, he's done very well. In fact, he's so cross with Æthelred that he's basically kind of binned him and is saying, oh, well, I should be king. And between them, Edmund Ironside and Olaf Haraldsson succeed in reestablishing the rule of the Kurd of Kingass.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
The prospects for Edmund Ironside as a future king are all the brighter for the fact that his father by now is a dying man. And in 1016, he duly shuffles off this mortal coil. But his passing actually is barely noted because by now everyone's eyes is on Edmund Ironside. You know, he's tremendous. He's dashing. His sides are made of iron and he claims the throne. Yeah.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
There is, however, a problem because he is not the only claimant to this throne. There is a rival and who that is and how the contest of this rival with Edmund Ironside develops, we will discover after the break.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Well, I think he actually does both. So he does withdraw from England in the wake of his father's death. But as a sign that he will be back, remember that the English nobleman, particularly around Mercia, had given him hostages. So Canute takes these hostages and he maims them, cuts off their hands, blinds them and dumps them all on the beach at Sandwich. So, you know, that's that's not fun.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And he then goes back to Denmark and he's a chip off the old block. He does what his father would have done, which is to use his rank and his power as king of Denmark to marshal another great invasion fleet.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And he also sends agents to England to secure pledges of loyalty from all the various Danish communities there, particularly in East Anglia and particularly around the Humber, because that's where the settlement is the deepest. And he also recruits large numbers of mercenaries. And it's said in a biography of him by a guy who's very keen on him. There were so many kinds of shield.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
It was easy to believe that troops drawn from all the nations of the world were with him. And among them is Thorkil, who has now abandoned Æthelred for good. So he's got these terrifying, massive lads behind him. They're tall. They think nothing of pelting archbishops with oxen bones. And they are sailing for England.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And Cnut and Edmund go kind of hammer and tongs. And by the time that Æthelred finally dies on the 23rd of April, 1016, the country is effectively divided in two. So Cnut has Northumbria and East Anglia, and Edmund has Wessex. And neither side can really defeat the other.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And I think that the fact that Edmund has been able to secure Wessex indicates that Æthelred actually had been a failure as a king. You know, he could have... fought as his son did, and he didn't. And now the country is divided. So there is one key territory which remains up for grabs, and that is Mercia. Yeah, the Midlands. Basically the Midlands.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And this is under the rule of an elderman called Edric. And he is a very, very kind of slippery, treacherous opportunist, as is conveyed by his nickname, which is Strayona or the Grabber.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yes. So he's returned to Norway, the North Way, the great road that kind of winds up the coast of Norway. He is setting about transforming himself from a pagan Viking chieftain into the intimidating figure of a Christian king. He does this with the same buccaneering enthusiasm that he had shown in extorting cash from the English.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yes, he is. So actually, the description you get in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, it does sound quite like Littlefinger. A man of humble origins, but whose smooth tongue won him wealth and high standing. Endowed as he was with a subtle genius and incredible powers of eloquence, he surpassed all his peers in malice and treachery, as well as in pride and cruelty.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He's the Captain Bentine of the story, Tom. Yes. I mean, he's so treacherous that in a way he overdoes it. So first of all, he sides with Knute and tries to have Edmund assassinated. Then he goes over to Edmund. Then he goes back to Knute. And then he comes back to Edmund. He's a weathervane. He is tracking the shift in fortunes between Knute and Edmund as they fight each other over England.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the climactic clash takes place in the autumn of 1016 on the 18th of October at a site in Essex called Assundun. It's a very, very hard fought battle, but then treachery in the English lines. Edric Streona, the grabber, has swapped sides yet again. In mid-battle. In mid-battle, yes. Canute wins. Pray singers celebrate his great victory.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
At Ashington, you worked well in the shield war, warrior king. Brown was the flesh of bodies served to the carrion birds. Great lines. But Edmund, you know, his sides are not fashioned out of iron for nothing. No. He's not going to surrender. And in the end, the two men agreed that they will divide England.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Edmund keeps Wessex, but Canute gets Mercia and therefore effectively everything north of the River Thames. And we've promised toilet-based misadventure. Edmund does not long outlive the agreement. So on the 30th of November, 1016, he dies, possibly of wounds suffered in battle. But another account says that he was murdered while sitting on the toilet.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yeah, they are. And Canute is obviously very keen on killing as many of the Curde King as the dynasty of Alfred the Great as he can. So Edmund's younger brother, he is murdered on Canute's orders. This still leaves some of them on the scene. So we've mentioned the two sons of Æthelred and Emma. who have fled to Normandy. So they are Edmund's half-brothers, Edward and Alfred.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So they are in Normandy and Canute can't get his hands on them. Edmund Underside himself has left two sons. Canute sends them to Sweden in the expectation that they will be murdered. That's his plan. So it's a bit like Claudius sending Hamlet to England to be murdered. Same kind of idea. The King of Sweden doesn't murder them, but sends them on to Kiev. And from there they end up in Hungary.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the eldest of them, a guy called Edward, will grow up to be known as Edward the Exile. So there are still Curta Kingas out there, but there are none now in England.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So he goes up and down the North Way and he smashes idols and he menaces local pagan leaders and he forces conversions of his countrymen at the point of a sword and he throws out Odin's beef. And I think as that story suggests, his conversion is up to a point pretty genuine. But the question then is...
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yeah, which becomes anglicised to earls. Right. So there's the same root. You can see elderman and earl. I mean, it's the same kind of root. But to be an earl is to live in a country that has been conquered by the Danes. There is one surviving Elderman or Earl, whatever you want to call him, and that is Edric Streona the Grabber.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But again, as with William, who does try to keep some English lords in situ, but they're always rebelling against him. And so ultimately he just gets rid of them all. Edric is too slippery, too treacherous. He starts the scheme again and Canute's not having that.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And so he has Edric murdered in London on Christmas Day, 1017, and his head is put on a spike on the battlements of London and his body is thrown over the city battlements to serve as food for the dogs.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I'm going to quote myself. In Canute, the larcenous instincts that had long propelled generations of Northmen across the seas were set to attain their apotheosis, for he had his sword at the throat of an entire kingdom. So think of all that gold that Danes over the course of Æthelred's reign had been extorting. There's millions of coins.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Well, Æthelred's ability to do that had depended upon the apparatus of English governance. This is what enables him to raise the money. And now that apparatus of English governance is Canute's to command. So he can do with it what he wants. And... In the tax year of 1018, he sets the tax rate at 100%. And it takes his agents months and months to extort this.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But by the end of the year, essentially the entire income of the kingdom for that year has vanished into Canute's treasure chests. So Rachel Reeves can only dream of such rich pickings.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I think it's partly because the English are actually very familiar with the Danes. And you could talk of a kind of Anglo-Danish world reaching back decades, maybe centuries. These people, their languages, and now that the Danes have become Christian, their religion, there is scope there for them to merge. So culturally, it's not a shock. No.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
why would he, having imposed himself so formidably on our Christian kingdom, why would he then convert to the God of the seeming losers? And I think the answer is that everything he does is very finely calculated to make him look good, to kind of redound to his glory, to add to his potency and power. And the truth is that even though he had extorted money from the English, he
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I mean, it is a shock, but it's not as big a shock as it will be to be conquered by people speaking French. That would be a shock, yeah. But I think also, Canute may have conquered England, but he displays something akin to a kind of cultural cringe. So in 1018, which is the year that he's extorting his 100% tax rate, he allows himself to be persuaded by the Archbishop of York
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
who's a very distinguished scholar, very holy man, into upholding the laws of the Kurdic Inga, so the laws of Edgar and of Æthelred. Essentially, he promises he will rule as though he belonged to the dynasty of Kurdic and of Alfred the Great. The reason that he's happy to do this is because he does not want to rule as a Viking warlord. He wants to rule England as a Christian king.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He's grown up surrounded by English bishops in Denmark. Harold Bluetooth and Svein Forkbeard had not allowed bishops from Germany to serve there because the Germans are a far more present threat, the Saxon monarchy. So all the bishops in Denmark basically are English. and the Archbishop of York, Wolfstan, he can serve Canute as a kind of Gandalf. Or as a Merlin. Or a Merlin. Yeah.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He's at his side. And this sense of intimacy that Canute has with his new kingdom is evident in his very bed. Because although he is a Christian, he remains sufficiently a Northman that he thinks nothing of having two wives together. Both of them kind of English in his bed. And the question of what exactly these two women, what exactly their status are is highly contested. So are they both wives?
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Is one of them a concubine? So Pauline Stafford, who's kind of a great expert on the role of queens in 11th century England, she says concubine wife is too stark a distinction to capture this shifting situation. And the reason for that will be evident when I describe who these two women, these two wives, concubines, queens, whatever, who they are.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Which confusingly is the same name that Emma... Athared's wife from Normandy had been given when she came to England, which is why we need to not call her that. So Elf Gifu had married Canute in the early days of Svein's invasion, and almost certainly this was a kind of dynastic marriage. So as we will see, she is probably related to the leading Mercian family.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And she's a kind of pledge of their alliance with the Danes. And Knut and Elfgifu seem to have got on tremendously well. So Elfgifu gets pregnant very, very quickly, gives birth to a boy who is named Svein after his adorable grandfather. And in 1015, Knut sends her back to Denmark with the baby.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Knut returns to Denmark as well, gets her pregnant again, and she gives birth to another boy, Harald, who in due course in the 12th century will come to be called Harald. So he's not called Harefoot in this period, but we'll call him that. We should call him that. We've got too many Harold's. From the other Harold's.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So Canute clearly respects Alfgifu very highly, not just as a woman who can give him sons, but also as a political operator. And when he returns to England to fight Edmund Ironside, he leaves Alfgifu to administer part of Denmark for him. Right. And in 1030, so that's kind of a decade and more on, there's an even more striking example of his faith in her.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Because by this point, his elder son, Svein, is a teenager and Knut thinks, I'd quite like him to be king of Norway. So he sends Alfgifu, Svein and a big war band off to Norway to conquer it and install Svein as king. And it's true that it doesn't go brilliantly. Elf Gifu does conquer Norway, but she rules very, very harshly.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
The Norwegians rebel, and in 1035, she and Svein are kicked out, and Svein dies soon after of wounds sustained in battle. So Elf Gifu is back in Denmark, but she's still very much a kind of potent presence on the scene and still has cards to play, as we will see in due course.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He can do that because England is rich. And I think he has seen enough of this great Christian kingdom ruled by Æthelred to think, well, I would quite like a bit of what Æthelred has. We may think of him as a loser, but Æthelred is heir to Alfred the Great. He's a figure of dignity, of splendor, of wealth. And Olaf wants it.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So she must be a fair bit older than him, right? She's still very nubile. Okay, that's good to know. As we will see. And so you could say this is kind of classic Viking behaviour, taking to bed the woman of your defeated enemy. Right. But I'm sure that that's a kind of part of the dynamic. But essentially...
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Canute is marrying her because she had been married to Æthelred and anointed as his queen, and so she is a living link to that tradition of West Saxon monarchy going back centuries and centuries. Emma's mother had actually been a Dane, so she's half Danish and probably speaks Danish.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But her value to Canute is essentially that she is, even though she's half Danish, half Norman, she is an English queen. She's the embodiment of England. And by marrying her, he is in a sense marrying England. And so his marriage to her is blessed by the church, And this is the big point of difference between her and Avgifu. Avgifu's marriage had not been blessed by the church.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
It doesn't need to be. This isn't an age where it's a given that the church will bless every wedding. But the fact that Emma's has been enables her to say, I am Knut's legitimate wife. And any children that I give him, they are entitled to the throne of England.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
The figure he reminds me of is Augustus. He's not a man of similar achievement, but the willingness to be unspeakably brutal where necessary, and then when it's no longer necessary, to park that side and to kind of promote himself as a figure of peace. Very, very formidable. That's just good politics, isn't it, Tom? Right. So this guy who, as you said, had waded through blood...
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He allows Wulfstan, the Archbishop of York, to write laws in his name that proclaim the Christian virtues of humility and self-restraint. So as Wulfstan writes, and Canute puts his name to this, for the mightier or of higher rank a man is, so the deeper must he atone for wrongdoing, both to God and to men. Canute has disinherited the oldest royal line in Christendom.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But he becomes, I'm delighted to say, a regular visitor to the restored and rebuilt nunnery at Wilton. And he rides there with Emma. And he dismounts respectfully outside the holy precincts. And he walks in and he prays among the tombs of the women of the House of Wessex. And he is a Viking, a Northman from the frozen limits of the world.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But in 1027, amazingly, he takes time off from ruling this great North Sea empire that he's forged in Norway, Denmark, England. I mean, it's a lot. But he's able to go on pilgrimage to Rome. And there in the heart of the ancient city, to kneel before the tomb of St. Peter and in the words of his biographer, diligently to speak St. Peter's special favor before God.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And he hasn't just gone there to pray. He's gone because that Easter of 1027, a new German emperor is being crowned in Rome. Hmm. And Canute, at that coronation, has the place of honour at the emperor's side.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And it is an amazing achievement for the great grandson of a pagan warlord, so Gorm the Old, with his great mounds and all that stuff, to be received with the utmost honour and respect in Rome, By both the emperor and the pope.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
To worship Odin is basically to be parochial, to be poor, to be someone who has to be a predator. And to worship Christ is to be powerful and rich and possessed of enough silver, if you have to, to kind of give it out.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Well, it's often said that Alfred the Great is the only English king, or at least king of England, to be called the Great. But he isn't. Canute has also been given that soubriquet, as Charlemagne had, Charles the Great.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I think his feats of conquest and then of statecraft are very, very formidable. Just as England had recovered under Alfred, who had beaten the Danes, so also it recovers under Canute, who is himself a Dane. I guess the obvious reason for that is firstly that Canute is not imposing his 100% tax rate. That was a one-off. But also,
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
The Danes are no longer raiding England because it's being ruled by the Danes. And so there is scope for the English economy and the English countryside and English infrastructure to recover. And it also seems that Canute's regime is secure because he has Harold Harefoot, his son by Alf Giffo. But he's also fathered a son on Emma, who gets given the wonderful name of Harthacanute.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And so the fact that Canute is so strong, he rules this great empire, he has two sons, it makes the prospect of any return to the English throne of the Cur de Kingas, the line of Alfred the Great, seem utterly implausible. So you've got the sons of Edmund Ironside, including Edward the Exile. They are off in distant Hungary. They are basically, you know, they're East European aristocrats.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
They don't even speak English. And then you have Æthelred's two sons by Emma. So that is Edward and Alfred. They are in Normandy. It's true. Only across the channel. But they have the stamp of absolute losers. And the person who really says, yeah, they're losers is their own mother, Emma. Well, because it's in her interest. She's back in England. Of course it is. Of course it is.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Because the son that she's backing is Harth Canute, the one she's had by Canute. I mean, he's the one who's kind of ready and lined up to sit on the English throne. So it's not surprising that Emma's focus now is all on England and all on Denmark, and she doesn't really have any interest in her two sons by Æthelred who are in exile in Normandy, or indeed actually in Normandy itself.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
She's binned all that. She's moved on from it.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
It's succumbed to the French disease. Yeah. So in 1026, so that's a year before Canute gives on his pilgrimage to Rome. Um, Emma's brother, Richard the second, uh, Richard the good, he's ruled for a very long time in Normandy. He dies and he has two sons and these two sons fight over the inheritance and the older brother wins. He rules for less than a year. One of these kind of dramatic deaths.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Maybe he's poisoned again. We don't really know. And he succeeded by his younger brother who is called Robert, um, And Robert is pretty able. He restores Normandy to a kind of measure of health. But then amazingly, and bizarrely, he goes on pilgrimage not to Rome, but to Jerusalem, which is very, very dangerous. I mean, it's a long way to go and very, very risky.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And what makes this seem even more, I think, irresponsible is that although Duke Robert of Normandy does have an heir, this heir is firstly only seven years old. And secondly, he's not legitimate.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the name of this boy, Dominic.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And then in July 1035, Robert has got to Jerusalem, fine. He's returning from Jerusalem. He is approaching Constantinople and he dies. And William is now the Duke of Normandy, but his inheritance is a terrible one. He's menaced by enemies all along the frontiers of Normandy, but even more, he is menaced by the great lords of his own dukedom. And England, by contrast,
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
is an absolute model of stability.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And I think it's more than just about belief. It's also about the apparatus of power that Christianity provides because it's very much a literate civilization. You have bishops who can serve you as ministers that could then enable you to kind of construct the kind of kingdom that you find in England. It enables you to have more sophisticated ways, essentially, of raising troops and
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Therefore, the offer is that you can be even more bloodthirsty and extort even more money, ultimately, is the base practical reason for it. The degree to which this is something that is very much in the air in the early 11th century is the fact that Olaf Tryggvason is not the first Viking warlord to have clocked this.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
South of the North Way, you go across these icy, reef-strewn waters that separate Norway from Denmark. And there you come to the flatlands of Jutland. And there stands the seat of the kings of Denmark.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And we talked in the first episode about how England is very precocious, but it's not entirely unique because in Denmark, at the same time as the Kurde Kingas, the great dynasty of Alfred the Great, are establishing their rule over a united kingdom of England. A dynasty of kings in Denmark are doing much the same thing.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And they set up a great kind of showcase of their dynasty's power at a place called Jelling, which is in the heart of Jutland. And it is, you know, we've already alluded to Tolkien. It is like something out of Lord of the Rings. It's a place of ancient graves and you've got gold ringed warriors with their swords and their spears standing on guard outside Jutland.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
kind of great halls great feasting halls and you also have two huge mounds of earth that had been raised by Gorm Gorm the Old Gorm the Old who is the founder of this dynasty and had been a pagan But the amazing thing is that between these two great barrows, these two great pagan piles of earth, there stands a church.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And beside the church, there is a great block of granite that has been carved into the stone. with an image of a crucified Christ who is entangled with serpents, and it's inscribed with runes.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And these runes read, and I quote, King Harald had this memorial made for Gorm, his father, and Fyrie, his mother, that same Harald who joined together all Denmark and Norway and made the Danes to be Christian.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yes. And the symbol for Bluetooth is kind of fusion of the runes for H and B, so the two initials of Harold Bluetooth. Yeah. And the idea behind naming that technology Bluetooth was this idea that Harold had joined together Denmark and Norway. In fact, it was just the southern reaches of Norway, like this is teaching all the world to sing, kumbaya, wonderful.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Of course, I mean, there was nothing touchy-feely about it at all. It was a very brutal process of conquest. And you can see in this kind of great rock, this great stone with the symbol of Christ carved on it, that the process of conquest... is being elided with the process of becoming Christian.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And as you said, to be the servant of a kind of single omnipotent God rather than a whole host of gods, this is to be a Caesar. This is potentially to have power that is far more prestigious than anything that the pagan world could offer.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And of course, as we said, also it brings bureaucracy and bureaucracy in turn enables the organisation of a treasury and a treasury enables the commissioning of infrastructure and the building of ships and the arming of ever larger armies.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the Danish king who best demonstrates this is not Harold himself, but his son, Svein Forkbeard, who at the end of the last episode, you reminded us, had cold blue eyes.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yeah, I think he's a much more frightening figure, much more kind of chill and calculating than any of the pagan Vikings, actually.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yes, precisely because he is starting to kind of institutionalise his menace. But you still have the slight vein of brutal comedy that you often get in Viking epics. So the story of how he comes to power, he actually topples his father, Harold Bluetooth. So in 986, he leads a rebellion against Harold. And there are various stories that are told of Harold's ends.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And the most comical, and therefore the one that we will go with.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yeah, so the father and son have a kind of parley. on an island. They're just about, you know, they've got all their fleets behind them. And then Harold Bluetooth goes off to go to the toilet to have a dump. And as he sits down to start the process, an arrow is fired and it goes straight up his anus.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And this will not be the last toilet themed death that we will be touching on in the course of this series.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
Yes. And Svein had fought with Olaf Tryggvason at Malden, so was fully aware of his potential and his formidable qualities. And so therefore decides that he's going to have to eliminate him. And... One of the many ways I think in which Svein Fortbeard is a frightening figure is that he's a great man for delayed gratification.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
So he takes his time and he slowly builds up an ever more intimidating force with which to take on the Norwegian king. And In the year 1000, this great fleet set sail to destroy Olaf Tryggvason. Tryggvason himself is kind of ready for it. He's got an absolutely enormous kind of dragon ship called the Long Serpent, the largest dragon ship ever fashioned.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
He's got 60 ships that are kind of similarly impressive and intimidating. So these two great armadas sailing out to meet one another. But Forkbeard's force is ultimately far more intimidating. Olaf Tryggvason's fleet is rapidly wiped out and it ends with Tryggvason himself, who has got golden armour, bright red cloak, so kind of very on brand.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
His enemies have cornered him, they're about to grab him, and Olaf Tryggvason leaps into the sea. When Svein Fortbeard's men tried to rescue him from the waters, he threw his shield over his head, it is said, and vanished beneath the waves. He dies as he had lived, as a great Viking hero, a man whose name will be celebrated in song.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
But Svein Forkbeard has secured for himself power beyond the dreams of any previous Scandinavian king.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
I say there's a case for saying. Yeah, it's in the top two. I think it's a moral disaster, obviously, because actually murdering people who are your guests in your kingdom is a terrible look, no matter whether you have kind of apocalyptic justifications or not. But I think it's an insane misreading of not just Svein Fortbeard himself, but the capabilities of the Danish kingdom.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And I guess the reason that Athelred misreads it is that he is thinking that Denmark is still the country... you know, that it was back in the pagan days. He hasn't clocked the fact that it is starting to become a kingdom very much like his own. And the consequences are utterly disastrous.
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549. The Road to 1066: Revenge of the Vikings (Part 2)
And I think that anyone in England listening to this who is currently depressed about the state of the country should sit back and reflect on the fact that it was actually a lot worse in the latter years of Æthelred's reign.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
People have said the same about us. I think specifically, Tom, they've said it about you, to be fair.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
You think he's wobbling all over the place in the... Well, yes, but I mean, he's in the middle, surrounded by land, surrounded by the great Eurasian landmass. Do you think he's got a yearning for the sea? I don't know. Maybe I'm being over-romantic.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
with baskets of earth on their heads do you want to remind us of that some of the horror yeah so um i i could see every rib the joints of their limbs were like knots in a rope each had an iron collar on his neck and all were connected together with a chain whose bites swung between them rhythmically clanking and then um comes to a grove and sees people there dying black shapes black shadows of disease and starvation lying confusedly in the greenish gloom and
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Of course, the justification that Leopold is giving for this effectively slave labour is that it's progressive slave labour, that it will enable the introduction of Western technology, steam trains, all of that, and then it will ease the burden on the porters.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But there's a kind of very ironic spin on this in Heart of Darkness, because when Marlow gets to the top of the rapids to look for his steamer, he finds that it's been sunk. and he has to dredge it up, and they haven't got the bolts that would enable it to be put together. Yeah, rivets. The rivets. You have the sense of even the claims to kind of technological superiority are a kind of sham.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Because we talked earlier about how, to begin with, for Europeans... Africa is all about the coast, that they didn't go inland, that it just seemed a waste of effort. And perhaps in that sense, Conrad is kind of emblematic of the transition that European adventurers make from experiencing Africa along the coasts and going inland. He's kind of compressing that entire history into his own person.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And whose relationship to Kurtz and his plans for Kurtz is a kind of twist, isn't there?
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And we mentioned this before, but there are kind of prefigurings of the lost world and all those novels and then films where people go back into a prehistoric past and the sense of silence and desolation preceding summer. you know, appalling revelation of some saurian bursting out of the jungle or something.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
I mean, Heart of Darkness is much more sophisticated than that, but there is, you sense some terror, some horror is waiting.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
So it's a kind of epistolary heart of darkness. It is indeed. We don't know.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And I know we'll come to this, but there is something kind of the Freudian idea of a repressed memory, a darkness that even as you try and repress it, it is kind of bleeding out into your dreams and your fantasies.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And I think it makes it clear that the narrator in some ways to be equated with Conrad, because this hanging around on a ship is, On the Thames is exactly what Conrad was doing. And he did it with kind of various mates, one of whom was a company director, one of whom is an accountant, one of whom is a solicitor.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And that maps exactly onto the description of the three people with Marlowe in the boat.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And that, of course, is very redolent of the Congo. And so also is his account of what it must have been like for a Roman soldier advancing inland here and there, a military camp lost in a wilderness like a needle in a bundle of hay. Which, of course, is historically very inaccurate.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, Dominic, also, I mean, Belgium is never named and Leopold is never named and Brussels is never named. It's called the White and Sepulchre. Yeah, the Sepulchral City or something like that. Sepulchral City, yeah.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But I suppose it kind of universalises it a bit.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
He is also praised as the man who gets as much ivory as all the other agents put together. So he is also being praised for his acquisitiveness and whatever qualities are required to obtain that amount of ivory.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But also, nothing ever happens. So that stuff about hearing drums in the distance or whatever... In Rider Haggard, that would immediately presage an attack that would involve guns and heroism and all kinds of stuff. I mean, nothing like that ever happens.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But it's not standing in the middle of King Solomon's mines being, I mean, it's just not that kind of adventure.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
I mean, since Shakespeare, but you might say since Christopher Marlowe and the death of Faustus, who has sold his soul in return for earthly riches and then gets plunged down into hell. And it can't be a coincidence. I think that Marlowe, the character who meets with Kurtz, shares the name with the playwright who wrote that drama. It's a nice parallel. Contemporary of Shakespeare's. Exactly.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Because all the owners of the company want these papers, don't they? Marlowe is saying, I don't have them. And also, just to say one thing that we omitted, Kurtz has had an African woman who loves him. That's right. And she is actually, I think, the most Ryder Haggard figure in the whole
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, I mean, unless her name was Horror. Yeah, seems very unlikely. Seems unlikely. Anyway, Dominic, thank you. So that's the life of Conrad and the plot of Heart of Darkness. But Dominic, what does it all mean? What's it all about? We will find out after the break.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
That's right. They go through the annals of history and revisit the lives of some of the most famous men and women to ever have lived. and ask if they have the reputation they deserve.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
The brown current ran swiftly out of the heart of darkness, bearing us down towards the sea with twice the speed of our upward progress. And Kurtz's life was running swiftly too, ebbing out of his heart into the sea of inexorable time. Anything approaching the change that came over his features I have never seen before and hope never to see again. Oh, I wasn't touched. I was fascinated.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And Dominic, as Peter Frankopan, a cricketing compadre of mine, would tell you, it's actually pronounced Chinggis. Did you know that?
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Genghis Khan, Chinggis Khan, however you want to call him. Extraordinary figure. I mean, unbelievably brutal figure. It's said that his conquests and those of his immediate successors resulted, I think, something like 40 million deaths, which would be about 10% of the world population at the time.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Yes, because he and his army certainly used sexual violence as a weapon of war, but also at one point he did ban the kidnapping of women.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And with Afya Hirsch as well as co-host, you're all in for a real treat. So listen to Legacy now, wherever you get your podcasts, or listen to episodes early and ad-free at Wondery. Kurtz was a remarkable man. He had something to say. He said it.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Since I had peeped over the edge myself, I understand better the meaning of his stare, that could not see the flame of the candle, but was wide enough to embrace the whole universe, piercing enough to penetrate all the hearts that beat in the darkness. He had summed it up. He had judged. The horror. He was a remarkable man. After all, this was the expression of some sort of belief.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
It had candour. It had conviction. It had a vibrating note of revolt in its whisper. It had the appalling face of a glimpse truth, the strange commingling of desire and hate. So that's the verdict that Marlow delivers on Kurtz after his death towards the end of Heart of Darkness. And I guess, you know, Heart of Darkness is a very, very well chosen title.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
That sense that there is something, a mystery that you can't penetrate, which Kurtz in some strange way embodies. And you have the sense of... kind of great depths, but it's hard exactly to say what lurks in those depths. Here are the questions for you. What is it that Kurtz has seen? What is the truth? What is the horror? Is it something he's seen in himself?
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Is it something he's seen in the Congo? Is it something he has seen in the nature of imperialism? Is it Something about the human condition, full stop? I mean, what is going on? That's a very good question, Tom. Well, loads of questions for you.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
It's like the Kennedy assassination.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
It was as though a veil had been rent. I saw on that ivory face the expression of sombre pride, of ruthless power, of craven terror, of an intense and hopeless despair. Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation and surrender during that supreme moment of complete knowledge? He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, there's the quality of the Byronic hero, the man who is elevated by the terrible knowledge that he has won from experience. I mean, it's definitely a kind of literary trope.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
what is motivating all this and of course then when he gets to the Congo everything that he sees could come from a charge sheet about the crimes of empire the skulls the skeletons you know the violence all of that kind of thing I mean one of the things that strikes me about it a bit like War of the Worlds where Wells transposes the horrors of European colonialism to Britain there's a sense that occasionally that Conrad is doing the same thing so the whole the opening with Britain as Africa
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But also there's a kind of an amazing passage. So he's looking out at Marlow, he's looking out at all the villages that are abandoned. And he says, well, you know, if loads of Africans suddenly, you know, armed with terrifying weapons started appearing on the road that stretches between Deal and Gravesend in Kent, catching the yokels right and left to carry heavy loads of them.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
I fancy every farm and cottage thereabouts would get empty very soon. And of course, that is a prefiguring of the slave labour in due course that the Nazis will introduce in the heart of Europe.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
He cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath. The horror, the horror. So that was Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness, first published in Blackwoods magazine in 1899. And one of the most celebrated novellas, not just in English, but full stop, ever written. We are not. The rest is literature.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Although, if you read it and you didn't know about Coronet's enthusiasm for British imperialism, would you necessarily recognise that?
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
That's why Said is a brilliant cultural critic, but he never writes a great work of literature because it would simply be agitprop. Conrad's story is vastly more complex and unsettling than a kind of programmatic response to this would demand.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But this is a book that, quite aside from its incredible literary value, is also well worth doing in a history podcast for reasons that we have been touching on, Dominic, throughout the series that we've just finished about the Belgian Congo.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
However, one of the reasons why it is travelling back to the earliest beginnings of the world is that there are no humans, and there are no humans there because they've all been scared off by the depredations of European colonialists. So he's not simply saying… you know, the silent, what is it? He says, an empty stream, a great silence.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
That great silence is expressive of the depredations of European colonists.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, he does. He said it. I mean, we just quoted the stuff about, you know, the Africans turning up in Kent and launching attacks.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But that is why Conrad is a great writer, because he's setting up these, you know, these echoes in the prose that reverberate.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Because at the heart of darkness is all the history, all the horror, as Kurtz might put it as he dies, that we have been talking about in those three episodes.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And we've already touched on Kurtz's African concubine, who is pure stereotyping. I mean, the pure kind of fantasy figure. And I think that is where Conrad's kind of literary mastery falls down.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, yes. Yes and no. I mean... Because there is a risk that you then start saying anything racist in it is Marlowe talking and it's not, it's Conrad talking. I mean, you can do it either way. I mean, if you start playing that game, depending on whether you want to get Conrad off the charge or not, you can fix the...
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
You have the sense that Marley is wrestling all the time. He's groping after truth, but there's always the sense that it's kind of slipping his fingers. Clearly, he's grasping after the secrets of the human condition. but he is also grasping after the reality and the truth of what is going on in the Belgian Congo.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
As we've said, this is written before Morel starts his forensic examination of the details of what has been happening. You could say that there's an element there of the difficulty that historians have in making sense of what's been going on. It is noticeable that We don't have African accounts of what happened.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
I mean, this has been a problem that you've been acknowledging throughout our account, that it really is a story about what Europeans get up to rather than Africans. And I suppose that Conrad could talk to the Europeans, but he couldn't talk to the Africans.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Morel, who devoted his entire life to combating Leopold's regime in the Congo, said of it that it is the most powerful thing ever written on the subject. I think that is true. I think that reigning authors, because they fail to measure up to the ideological standards of 2024, It's the least interesting approach to literature that you could possibly adopt.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
But the possibility that he might be, I think, is woven into the story. I think that might be... the heart of darkness. That might be the horror. Conrad, Marlowe, whoever it is, is Conrad's voice within the heart of darkness. I mean, all those people, I think, are implicated in what is being discussed.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And he's riffing there on the tendency. Well, Stanley is always doing, isn't he? All his kind of massive volumes. He's always referring to darkest Africa. Hmm. That is the pivot, that London is one of the dark places, that the Thames Estuary was one of the dark places. Of course, dark has all these rich shades of meaning.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
It may be that one of those shades of meaning could be cast as racist, but it is only one of them. And the racism that Europeans display towards Africans is also part of the racism that is being displayed by Romans towards the Britons. That this is what imperialists do.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Yeah, conservative. I mean, he's sceptical about notions of progress and that Jerusalem can be built on the earth.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, also Dracula, which is published in 1897. The idea of darkness coming to England.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
There's no question that Heart of Darkness has given to very committed anti-racists, anti-imperialists, some of its language. I can't remember, was it Netflix or something? There was a documentary series called Exterminate All the Brutes. It came out two or three years ago. It was about European colonialism and was not favourable at all.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And it was based on a book by Sven Linkvist, who is a Norwegian writer who is absolutely excoriating about imperialism, particularly British imperialism. And of course, that title is coming from Kurtz's phrase, which in turn is written by Conrad. And so the echoes are very complex, I think, the kind of the ripples, the reverberations. I think to condemn it as a racist book is harsh.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Okay. Marley ceased and sat apart, indistinct and silent in the pose of a meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time. We have lost the first of the ebb, said the director suddenly. I raised my head.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
The offing was barred by a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky, seemed to lead into the heart of an immense darkness. Goodbye.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Well, I mean, the thing about Heart of Darkness is it's incredibly quotable. We have been quoting it throughout this series and things like The Horror of Mr. Curtsy Dead. I mean, Elliot, who has a kind of magpie eye. for brilliant snatches of phrasing. I mean, it's not surprising that he would fix on it.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And I wonder also, The Wasteland is a poem about the First World War, if you like, the heart of darkness that had been revealed within European civilization. And I think that there is a sense in which one of the reasons that a heart of darkness...
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
has the status it does is it slightly has the quality of prophecy because that heart of darkness that is located in Belgian Congo turns out to have been a prophecy of the darkness that will engulf Europe in 1914.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
And also it's the fact that you keep expecting adventure type themes to kick in and they never quite do, or if they do in a distorted and hallucinatory way. And to read them as a pairing, I think is, I mean, really fascinating.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Am I right that imperialism is a word that is coming into common use exactly at the time when Conrad is writing this?
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
So it's autobiographical, but it's also a portrait of... a real political situation. Exactly. And the political situation is what we've been talking about in the previous three episodes.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Because apparently, Dominic, I read that this in part was because his father had been a kind of political prisoner. That's right. And as such, as the son of a political prisoner, he was liable for a possible 25-year term of conscription into the Russian army. Yes. And so that's one of the reasons why he decides to go abroad. And I suppose he ends up in Marseille, doesn't he? Mm-hmm.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
France is the great refuge for Polish refugees in this period. Yes. If you want to become a sailor, you go to France and Marseille would be the obvious place.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
Yeah. And this is the thing about him. is that he is riffing on the same themes as kind of boys' own adventurers, as, you know, Ryder Haggard, all this kind of ripping yarns, and yet they're always stranger and darker and more hallucinatory than any of those.
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541. Heart of Darkness: Fear and Loathing in the Congo
He seems not to have spoken English at all before he was 21. I mean, it's just unbelievable that he learns it so fluently that he can write some of the masterpieces of English prose. Although I gather... Did you see the... the comment on Conrad's English by Ford Maddox Ford. His words absolutely exact as to meaning, but his accentuation so faulty that he was at times difficult to understand.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Henceforth, they would be powerful lords, at times rivaling in power dukes, counts, and even kings, but they would never again command that particular power As monopolists of the sacred, this role, along with the lead in cultural life, would pass to monasteries.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Yeah, I think absolutely. And what compounds the impact of this process is that in the south of Gaul, where Roman civilization had been much more deeply planted, it had been there for much longer, urban civilization had kind of survived to a degree that it hadn't in northern Gaul.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
The cities there, over the previous decades, have been absolutely smashed to pieces, first by the Arab invaders and then by Charles Martel's invasion south and his attempt to reclaim these cities. It's not just that the old Roman bishops have been swept aside, it's also that the independence of the cities that had maintained them has also been massively shattered.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
People who've been to the south of France, if you think of Nîmes or Arles or whatever, There are still incredibly impressive Roman remains there. But this is the point where they are really starting to crumble away as well, as Roman cities kind of in the north had already done. They start to be cannibalized. They crumble away. They're shattered by wars.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And as you say, I think this is really the kind of the end point of late antiquity in Gaul. This is where the kind of you want to say the Middle Ages begin. I mean, this is the kind of the start point. And obviously, the bishops, the kind of the Roman old school, the Ancien Régime, they hate this. I mean, they're so resentful.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And there's a perfect example of this in the form of the erstwhile bishop of Orléans, who's a man called Eucharist. And that's a Roman name. And that's really telling because by this point in the 8th century, most Roman names are fading away. They're being replaced by Frankish names. Yeah. People are all called Theodore Wolfe or something. Yeah, exactly. Childebert or whatever. Yeah.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But among this kind of class of, you know, descended from senators and so on, they do preserve their Roman name. So you can tell from Eukaryus that he's kind of very grand figure, you know, with lineage going back to the Roman past. Anyway, Charles turns up in Orléans after the Battle of Tours. Very chipper, very full of himself. He's beaten the enemy off.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And Eukaryus is kind of grumpy and grouchy and snobbish towards him. So Charles Martel just says, piss off. don't want you anymore, replaces him with one of his own henchmen. And Eucharist is furious about this. And in due course, when Charles Martel dies, he reports a vision that he's been shown in a dream by an angel. And this angel leads Eucharist down into hell.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And there he shows him Charles Martel condemned in body and soul to eternal punishment. And Eucharist wakes up, he's absolutely thrilled by this vision, tells everyone, absolutely great news, Charles Martel is in hell. And he says, you know, if you want proof for this, let's go to Charles Martel's tomb, let's open it up and see if the body's there.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Because if it's not there, that will be evidence that the body has been taken away and dunked in the, you know, the boiling vats of the inferno. So a party got together, they go to Charles's tomb, they open it up. And I will quote from a subsequent record of what happens. Therefore, they went to the aforementioned monastery where Charles's body was buried.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
They opened his tomb, and suddenly, Dominic, a dragon emerged. Oh, my words. And the whole interior of the tomb was found to be blackened as if it had been burned. And that actually happened. Well, right at the beginning of this series, in the episode we did on Clavis, I promised people that we'd have a dragon. And there it is. And there we have. Comes rushing out.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
It's obviously been burning the tomb. Charles Martel's body has been taken, dunked in hell. What more proof do you need?
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Well, there's one very particular bishop, and that is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. So the Pope from Rome, I mean, he has no particular dog in the fight. He doesn't mind at all what Charles Martel is doing to the bishops in Gaul. And in fact, he's very, very keen to cozy up to Charles Martel.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So in 739, which is two years before Charles dies, the Pope, who's called Gregory III, sends him the keys of St. Peter and a portion of the chains that had bound St. Peter when he was held in prison. before being executed by the Romans. And this is a pretty clear signal that the papacy is interested in doing a deal with Charles and with his family.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And this is quite timely because everyone knows that Charles isn't long for this life. You know, by 739, he's pretty old. And the assumption is that Charles's two eldest sons, one of whom is called Carloman, one of whom is called Pepin, will succeed him. But they will do so, obviously, not as kings, but as mayors.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And I think there's a sense, not just in Rome, but also across most of the Frankish kingdom, that this is ridiculous. I mean, it's mad that you've still got a Merovingian king with his long hair and he's being wheeled out on his cart and all that kind of thing. And this is focused when Charles dies in 741. And sure enough, his roles as mayor are divided up among his sons.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So the elder one, Carloman, becomes the mayor of Austrasia, the Eastern Kingdom. And the younger one, Pepin, becomes the mayor of Neustria, with his capital now based in Paris. And what makes this even more ridiculous and seem ludicrous to people is is that there isn't even at this point a Merovingian king on the throne.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
They've run out of Merovingians. They haven't got one. So Carloman and Pepin, it's difficult for them initially to establish their authority. They're not the hammer. So it takes some time to affirm their authority. They think, well, actually, maybe it would be kind of easier for us if we did have a kind of Merovingian king on the throne.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So they look around and they find a Merovingian and he's a guy called Chilperic. Inevitably. And... They plonk him on the throne and he becomes Chilperic III. But the obvious solution to this whole problem is for him to be deposed, for the Merovingian monarchy itself to be abolished, and for either Carloman or Pepin, or perhaps both, to become kings. But there is a problem, which is...
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
how do you do this? Because Clovis, when he'd become king, this is why he'd proclaimed himself Augustus and why he'd boasted about his long hair and being descended from a weird sea monster.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
If you're going to be a king, you need a source of legitimacy because you need to demonstrate to your people and be confident in your own heart, in your own soul, that God approves of your elevation to the throne. So you need something or perhaps something someone who can provide that legitimacy.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Well, of course, Rome is the home of the papacy. And people who've listened, who've got this far in the series, may have noticed we haven't really mentioned the papacy much. And I guess, Dominic, lots of people may have the sense that the Pope is the key player in medieval Europe and therefore kind of find it a bit weird.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But at this point, the authority and the influence of the papacy are just a shadow of what they will become kind of in due course over the course of the high Middle Ages. So the Bishop of Rome, the Pope... I mean, he is kind of widely acknowledged by other churchmen across the West as being the most senior. He's the most senior bishop. But that's about the limit of it.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So if the pope, you know, he writes to kings, you know, he'll get their respect, they'll hear him out, but they won't necessarily obey him. He can offer them advice, but he certainly can't kind of give them orders. And part of that is because he would never think of doing it. I mean, it wouldn't cross his mind that that's his role. But also, even if he did, you know, he lacks the means to do it.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
As we said, the bishops, say, in Gaul are very independent. They don't see themselves as being under the thumb of the bishop of Rome. So the Franks, I think they respect him, the pope, but not much more than that. And definitely, you know, the bishops in Gaul, these kind of grand descendants of senators, they don't. They don't feel any sense of cultural cringe towards Rome.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
You know, they don't need him. They are their own men. They have their own saints. They have their own traditions. They are what they are. And the truth is that just as the Franks aren't particularly interested in the Bishop of Rome, the Bishop of Rome isn't really very interested in the Franks.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Because in Rome, you still have this kind of inheritance of ancient assumptions that anyone north of the Alps is a complete barbarian. I mean, the Franks, they still see them as these kind of awful people with enormous moustaches and tight pants and stuff.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But it's also because, to be honest, for most of the period that we've been describing, the popes have a lot on their plate. So they have much more pressing things to worry about than what might be going on in Paris or Toulouse or whatever. Yeah. And the reason for that is that they are still a part of the Roman Empire that is centered in Constantinople.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So the Roman Empire in the West has fallen, but there is still an Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, as it's often called. And back in the 6th century, so that's around the time that Fredegund and Brunhilde are being born, the great emperor Justinian, not really a friend of the show, is he? But his wife, Theodora, is definitely a friend of the show. Is he? Okay.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Theodora, definitely a friend of the show. Erstwhile star of Love Island, winner of Love Island, in fact. Anyway, Justinian had sent a great invasion force to reconquer Rome, and that had up to a degree been successful. Rome had been incorporated back into the Byzantine Empire. And this had been quite humiliating for the Romans because they had been...
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
the original imperial capital, and the Byzantines acknowledged Rome as the older city, but they also said that compared to Constantinople, it counts as the lesser city. And so the people of Rome who were once the rulers of this great empire are now themselves kind of subjects. And the inferiority of Rome to Constantinople is institutionalized in the wake of its reconquest by Justinian's armies.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So you have a Byzantine governor installed not in Rome, but in Ravenna to rule Byzantine Italy.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
It had. But I mean, it's embarrassing. Rome is not just a provincial capital. It's not even a capital at all. The emperor kind of lavishes Byzantine titles on the Roman aristocracy. Byzantine fashions become all the rage. People speak Greek. There are Greek churches set up in Rome. And Rome becomes essentially a kind of ersatz version of Constantinople.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
For the bishop of Rome, again, there are kind of constant reminders of his inferior status. So every time he celebrates a mass, he prays for his absent master, the emperor in Constantinople. Every time he writes a letter, he's dating it by the regnal year, again, of the emperor in Constantinople.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And meanwhile, as he sits there in Rome, whether he's kind of wandering through the Forum or going for a walk on the Campus Martius, all around him, you get in this very memorable phrase by Peter Brown, the great historian of late antiquity, he hears all around him the crash of falling masonry. So ancient Rome is literally falling to pieces around the Pope.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And I think of all those attributes, being the heir of St. Peter perhaps is the most significant because St. Peter, the apostle whom Christ himself had named as his rock, He has the keys of heaven. So he has the power, supposedly, to bind and loose souls everywhere. And the Pope claims to have inherited these powers. So there's a certain level of potency there.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And what also kind of raises the self-confidence of the papacy, the willingness of the papacy to see itself not merely as a servant of the emperor in Constantinople, but perhaps his peer, maybe even his rival. is the fact that Constantinople, like Gaul, has been coming under increasing attack from Umayyad forces.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And in fact, in 717, so even as Umayyad forces are spilling across Spain in the west, in the east, a great invasion force is advancing on Constantinople and investing it. And this is one of the models for Tolkien's portrayal of the siege of Minas Tirith in The Lord of the Rings. There's a two-year siege. By the end of it, in 718, this siege is finally broken.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But it's been an unbelievably close-run thing. The Byzantines have had a terrible fright. And so too in Rome has the Pope, because the emperor in Constantinople is supposed to be the Pope's kind of sword and shield. But of course, when the imperial capital itself is under threat... You know, the emperor and his advisors and his military heads, you know, they're not going to give a toss about Rome.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
It's a kind of obscure, you know, kind of unimportant frontier town. And the pope is kind of painfully aware of this. And when in the wake of the siege of Constantinople and the survival of the Byzantine Empire, the emperors in Constantinople try and reassert their authority in Italy, their focus isn't the north.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
it's the south because there they're being menaced by Umayyad forces who are moving up against Sicily and against southern Italy. So that's where Byzantine forces are concentrated. And in fact, they're stripped from the northern reaches of Italy. And that then leaves the north of Italy open and exposed.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And in 751, absolute disaster for the papacy because Italy is invaded by a people called the Lombards. And this is kind of almost like a flashback to the fifth century, the age of the barbarian invasions, because the Lombards, they're a Germanic people, they're kind of ferocious warriors.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And for pretty much two centuries, they'd been parked the northern limits of Italy waiting for their opportunity. And the fact that Byzantine troops have been stripped from the north of Italy to go and fight in the south gives them that opportunity. And they come sweeping down on the north and Ravenna falls to them.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And when the news is brought to the Pope in Rome, he's thinking, oh, goodness, you know, we might be next. And there is really very little prospect that the emperor in distant Constantinople is going to hear, you know, the lamentations and appeals for help from the bishop of Rome. So he has to look around for an alternative saviour.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
This is certainly the hope of the Pope. But before we look at why he might be willing to do this, we should just go back and see what's been happening in Francia. while all these events have been happening in Italy. Okay. So Pepin, as we said, is the younger brother of a guy called Carloman. And Carloman has been ruling as the mayor of Austrasia, the eastern region.
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Pepin is the mayor of Neustria, the kingdom abutting the channel. And as we said in the first half, between them, they have installed a kind of Merovingian cipher, Chilperic III on the Frankish throne. And the brothers get on pretty well. They seem to have been fond of each other, kind of quite unusual. That's unusual. Yeah. Yeah. in the annals of Frankish history.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And Carloman is a very distinctive character in that he combines a high level of kind of murderous ruthlessness with a very, very austere level of piety. So his most notorious display of ruthlessness People who listened to our first episode may have remembered that we talked about a great confederation of Germanic peoples called the Alemanni. And they, amazingly, are still on the scene.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And Carloman decides that the fact that they still have this identity is a threat to his own authority. And so he invites them to a kind of conference, an assembly, at a place called Cannstatt. And all the leading figures of the Alemanni come here, you know, very excited to hear what Carloman has to say. And what Carloman has to say is, you're all doomed.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He gives a signal, his servants, his aides, his men step up, slit the throats of all the Alemanni noblemen, and that is them wiped out. And the claim is that thousands of them are killed. So Timothy Reuter, the great historian of Frankish Germany, he wrote that, Canstatt did for the Alemannic landholding class what Hastings did for the Anglo-Saxon landholding class, i.e. wipe them out completely.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So that's got rid of the Alemanns from the scene. But the other project that Carloman has been pushing in the eastern regions of his empire is to sponsor a man from Devon, a guy called Winfrith. To convert all the pagan peoples who lined the eastern borders of the Frankish Empire. And Winfrith is a remarkable man.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He's, as far as I know, the only Anglo-Saxon missionary ever to have had a power station named after him. Power station? In Germany or in England? It's in Dorset.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Winfrith Power Station. So he comes over to Germany and he's very, very effective, you know, with his, I bring you the good news of Christ.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And he does so well that he comes to be called Boniface. So good deeds. And he's hailed as the apostle to the Germans. And actually, to this day, he's the patron saint of Europe. He has an amazing impact. He converts huge numbers of people. And Carloman thinks this is brilliant. He's got rid of the elements. He's converting all these pagans to Christianity. It's all looking good.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But then, weirdly, in 747... He goes to Rome and he prays before the Pope and he says, I don't want to be a king anymore. I want to become a monk. And the king shaves off his hair, you know, the emblem of power among the Franks, gives him a tonsure, the tonsure of a monk. And Carloman retires to the monastery of Monte Cassino. He's gone mad. He's had a breakdown.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Or he's had a religious vision, Dominic. His piety has won out against his worldly ambitions. And there is actually, there's one chronicler who suggests that he felt guilt about what he'd done to the Alamans. So he said he felt contrite. And because of this, he abandoned his kingdom. But the truth is, we don't know. Wow. We don't know.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Yeah, it is a bizarre twist. I mean, people, I think, felt at the time that it was bizarre.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And obviously it's great for Pepin. It's absolutely brilliant for Pepin because he is now the sole master of Frankie. He's got the lot.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And he decides because of this, you know, enough is enough. It's mad that I am not the king. But of course, he wants the reassurance that God approves of this. And so he turns to the Pope, who's a man called Zachary. He's of Greek descent. So you can see there kind of, you know, evidence for the abiding influence of Constantinople in Rome.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But this is a key moment because effectively, the Pope is about to turn his gaze from Constantinople northwards to the kingdom of the Franks. And he gets this, Zachary gets his letter from Pepin. And in it, Pepin asks, is it right or not that the king of the Franks at this time has absolutely no power, but nevertheless possesses the royal office? And Zachary replies, no, it is not right.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Yes. And effectively, Pepin can now feel that God wants him to do what he wants to do, which is to make himself king. So in 751, which is the same year that the Lombards invade Italy and capture Ravenna, Pepin finishes off the Merovingian dynasty. So as Einhard described in the opening of this episode, Chilperic is kind of dragged out of his estate. His hair is cut off. He is tonsured.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He is sent off to a monastery. And that's the end of him. That's the end of the Merovingians. The line of Clovis is extinct. Unless, of course, you're Dan Brown, in which case you think it's continued into the present day. But I think it hasn't happened.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So Pepin now faces the challenge of kind of setting himself aside as someone of royal status, someone who is kind of elevated above the common run that the Merovingians had never faced because the Merovingians could claim that they were descended from this kind of weird sea monster. They had their long hair. They had all this kind of stuff. Pepin doesn't have any of this.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So what he does is he turns to the Bible. And in the Bible, he reads of people who had not been of royal stock being elevated to the throne.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Saul and David being the classic examples. And the mark of their becoming kings is that they are anointed with holy oil. And so this is what Pepin has done to himself. He goes to Soissons in Neustria, northeast of Francia. And there the holy oil is put on his brow by a bishop. He feels it kind of impregnating his skin and he has been elevated to a kind of sacramental level.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And then three years later, he goes one better and he gets the Pope himself to come to Francia to repeat this ceremony. And by this point, Zachary is dead, but there is a new Pope called Stephen II and he is more than ready to do as Pepin wants, basically to answer the Frankish king's bidding. And the reason for this is that the Lombards are still very much on the scene.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So in the autumn of 754, he sets off from Rome northwards towards the Alps, and he is the first pope ever to travel to Gaul, to travel beyond the Alps. And there's a very dramatic account of his journey. I mean, it really does read like something out of Lord of the Rings, some kind of fantasy novel.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
There's descriptions of him climbing the Alps amid gusts of snow, and he's following a kind of ancient Roman road. that's been left all cracked and overgrown by centuries of disrepair. And he travels through a great wilderness of kind of sickening mists and ice. And finally, he reaches the summit of the pass. And this is the gateway of the kingdom of the Franks.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But below him, so below the road, there is this great frozen lake. And beside it, there's the ruins of a long abandoned pagan temple. And You know, for Stephen II coming from Rome, this is, you know, he thinks, what am I doing? This is a terrible mistake.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But then he continues down the road into the land of the Franks and he very soon reaches an abbey that had been sacred to an entire legion of Romans. Christians who had been martyred by the Romans back in the days of the Roman Empire. And his hosts tell the Pope that there is no people in the world who are more devoted to the cult of the martyrs, to the cult of the saints, than the Franks.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Yeah. He was also a very short man, Dominic. So like Benjamin Lay.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And the Pope is told, "...the bodies of the holy martyrs which the Romans had buried with fire and mutilated by the sword and torn apart by throwing them to wild beasts, these bodies they had found and enclosed in gold and precious stones." So it's actually pretty passive-aggressive, because what they're doing is saying, we don't really need you. We've got our own saints.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
We are kind of holier than the Romans. And you know, you're the bishop of the Romans. So, you know, just remember.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
I don't think the Pope really notices what he's being told, because I think he's so relieved that he's managed to get across the Alps. He hasn't fallen into a ravine. He hasn't been attacked by the phantoms of pagan gods, that he's just glad to be among civilized Christian people. And so he continues on his way. It takes him six weeks.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He gets to Paris and there he meets Pepin and he sees Pepin and he immediately kind of bursts into ostentatious floods of tears. And he begs Pepin to come to the protection of St. Peter. And then he goes with Pepin up to the great abbey of Saint-Denis, which is where Charles Martel had been buried, obviously where the dragon had been hanging out.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And there in Saint-Denis, he anoints him a second time. And just for good measure, he salutes not just Pepin as the anointed king of God, but the Franks themselves as the new Israelites. He hails them as a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people. So essentially the Pope is now lending his prestige to the self-conceit of the Franks that they are something special.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Well, so the thing that's unusual about this is that it's a biography in a kind of Roman style. It echoes Suetonius, the biographer of the Caesars. And that's not a coincidence because Einhardt as a young boy had been sent by his parents to a monastery, not to become a monk, but kind of rather like being sent to a boarding school or something like that.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He is. He absolutely lives up to his side of the bargain. So 755, one year after he's been anointed by the Pope, he crosses the Alps, he invades Lombardy, he smashes the Lombard king, gets the Lombard king to submit. Two years later, the Lombards are causing trouble again. So Pepin returns to Northern Italy, inflicts an even more crushing defeat on the Lombards.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And this time, all the territories that the Lombards had conquered from Byzantium are given by Pepin to the Pope, or rather to St. Peter, but effectively to the Pope. And Pepin then goes down to Rome, and he has all the keys of the cities that he's conquered, and he lays them on the tomb of Saint Peter, on the tomb of the apostle.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And of course, as Saint Peter's caretaker is the pope, so effectively the pope is now the master of this great swathe of lands that previously had been ruled by the emperor in Constantinople and then had been purloined by the Lombard king. And the news of this when it reaches Constantinople, I mean, the emperor is absolutely furious. He says, these are mine. But the Pope, he doesn't care.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He's shifted his loyalty. He's no longer Team Constantinople. He's now very much Team Frank. And the reason for that is that Pepin and the Franks have plucked him and the papacy from the absolute jaws of disaster. And God's hand is also evident in the greatness of Pepin in the wake of his anointing.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Because following Stephen's arrival in Paris and his hailing of the Franks as a holy people, everything goes absolutely brilliantly for them. Absolutely amazingly. And in fact, by the time that Pepin dies in 768, he has set the Frankish monarchy and the Frankish empire free. on even more solid and impressive foundations than Charles Martel has done.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So the taming of the Lombards is only one of Pepin's triumphs. He also effectively clears the Arabs from the south of Francia, kind of expels them beyond the Pyrenees. Aquitaine is also absolutely and definitively reduced to obedience.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So I said that Odo, the great Duke of Aquitaine, who'd fought with Charles Martel at Tours, he's retired to a monastery, but his son and his grandson had tried to continue the struggle, Pepin not having any of it. The last Duke of Aquitaine, Odo's grandson, gets murdered by his own followers because they think he's such a loser. And after that, there's no more talk of an independent Aquitaine.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
The whole while, Pepin has continued Charles Martel's devotion to military discipline. He's recruited more heavy cavalry. He's dragooned his infantry so that they're an absolute peak of discipline and fitness and expertise. He continues to sponsor missionary work on the eastern flank of his empire among the pagan Germans. And all of which means that when he dies, he leaves to his two eldest sons
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at a place called Fulda on the east bank of the Rhine. And this monastery had a complete collection of Suetonius' Lives of the Caesars. And this included a biography of the greatest of all the Roman emperors, Augustus. And Einhardt read it. And so when he came to write his biography of Charlemagne, he modelled it on Suetonius' Life of Augustus. And this is very deliberate because
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The elder one is called Charles. The younger one, confusingly, is called Carloman. Absolute waves of Carlomans in this episode. But he leaves to them a kingdom that's not just the foremost power in Western Europe, but is obviously absolutely primed to become even more formidable.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So Pepin and the elder Carloman, they got on well. Carloman, the guy who goes off and becomes a monk. But the younger Carloman and his elder brother Charles, so the sons of Pepin. They don't like each other at all. And Pepin's lands have been divided up between the two of them. Charles gets this kind of half donut and Carloman gets the kind of lump in the middle.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
They really don't get on well at all. And Einhard, in his account, he blames this on Carloman's advisors. So he says that harmony between them was maintained, but only with difficulty. For many of Carloman's advisors did their best to foster divisions between the two brothers to the degree that some of them were actively maneuvering to precipitate an open conflict between
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But then, in December 771, so that's only three years after the death of Pepin, a dramatic development. Carloman dies of a nosebleed. Can you die of a nosebleed? I mean, well, clearly you can. I mean, was there foul play?
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There doesn't seem to be in the sources any suspicion of that. And I think most historians accept that it wasn't a nosebleed. I mean, he seems to have died of natural causes. And that means, of course, that Charles is now really the only kid on the block. And he gets unanimously elected as king of all the lands of the Franks. His father and his grandfather, he alone holds the reins in his hands.
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And the question is, you know, as we said, what's he going to do with it? He's so primed, so ready to go on the offensive. And the question is, how far will he go? And I guess that there's a clue to the answer to that question.
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in the name by which this new young king of the Franks, Charles, is best known today, because he is known by us, not as Charles, not as Charles, but as Charles le Maine, Charles the Great, and... In the next two episodes, we will be looking at how Charles earns that name.
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Are you a fan of The Rest Is History, but yet to dive into the weird and wonderful world of The Rest Is History Club? Or is there someone dear to you who won't stop banging on about the show?
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
The extraordinary thing about Charlemagne, who is this descendant of barbarian warlords, is that on Christmas Day, AD 800, he had been crowned as a Caesar, as Augustus, in Rome by the Pope himself. And you said how Charlemagne is a titanic figure in the history of Europe.
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523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Hello, everybody. Dominic Sandbrook here. And I'm Tom Holland.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
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The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
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The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
If the history buff in your life is always regaling you with the same old facts about Churchill or Napoleon, why not get him or her, and let's face it, you, a present?
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
It is packed to the brim with the most bizarre historical questions you never thought to ask, like what was the most disastrous party in history? Which British politician plotted to feed his lover to an alligator? And why was a Brazilian emperor mistaken for a banana?
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
simultaneously a kind of dominant but also shadowy i think and this is the key moment in his reign and again it's a moment that is simultaneously epical yet also hard to get a sense of exactly why it matters the kind of the meaning seems to slip as you try to grasp it because even the empire that he ends up in a vertical was ruling the holy roman empire
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Actually, I think it was holy, I think it was Roman, and I think it was an empire for reasons that we'll come to. But you're right. So this is looking back to the age of the Roman Empire, to the age of Augustus, but it's also looking forward to the medieval empire and the empire that will endure right the way up to the time of Napoleon, who is the guy who abolishes it.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So you could say, I mean, I said that You know, the story of the Franks, it's a kind of hinge moment in European history. This perhaps is the key hinge moment. This is the kind of the middle point in the emergence of Europe from antiquity, from the world of ancient Rome into what will become the Europe of the high Middle Ages.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And it's kind of the ultimate promotion, a Frankish warlord becoming a Caesar. And so the question is, how had this absolutely jaw-dropping event happened? And this is the story that we will be telling. We'll be starting on it today and completing it in the next two episodes. And we'll be finishing this story, of course, on Christmas Day. So the anniversary of Charlemagne's coronation.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And that reflects the fact that Clovis is very much a kind of self-made man. He has been given the title of a consul by the emperor in Constantinople. But the idea that he's an Augustus, I mean, this is a self-promotion. And it reflects the fact that he is casting himself out. simultaneously as the heir of Roman power in Gaul.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
You know, this is what he's laying claim to, but also that he is a kind of barbarian warlord. So he's not interested in ruling a global empire as Augustus had done, as Charlemagne will aspire to do. He's content with being king of the Franks, but I mean, that's still an absolutely massive deal. And to justify his authority, he's casting himself as the equivalent of a Roman governor
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
But also, you know, he's the descendant of a weird sea creature. He's got his long hair. He's got all this kind of stuff. He's got his very tight pants over his enormous genitals. All this stuff that marks him out as being simultaneously Roman and Frankish. And that passage that you read, I mean, Einhard mentions some of the things that Clovis had worn and which the Merovision kins have inherited.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
The beard, the carts. The long hair, particularly. Yeah. So the reges, criniti, the long-haired kings, this is what kind of defines them. But the thing is that by the time of Einhardt's writing, so he's doing that kind of, what, maybe 820, 830, these attributes are cast as kind of grotesque, as rustic, as embarrassing.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And it reflects a sense that the Merovingians themselves, as the generations have passed, as their power kind of bleeds away, have become mere shadows of Clovis, the founder of their dynasty. They've become kind of phantasms, what French scholars have always called fainéants, the do-nothing kings, kings who play no role in the functioning of the Frankish state.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And the obvious question is, why has this happened? How is it that the heirs of Clovis are just ciphers? And Einhard, in that passage you read, I mean, again, he gives the answer. He says that they've been put in the shadow by officials known as mayors of the palace.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And these are posts that by the beginning of the 8th century have become, like the kingship of the Merovingians themselves, a hereditary post. And in the previous episode, the episode we did on the Battle of Tor, we met one of those kind of domineering mayors of the palace. And that was Charles, who in Einhard's time would come to be known as Martel, the Hammer.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And this redounds greatly to his reputation. But the thing is that long before he wins that battle, he's already won, you know, a name for himself as the most formidable warrior, not just in the lands of the Franks, but in the whole of Christendom. He's used his expertise in war to fashion a really quite coherent empire. So he's the master of Austrasia, where his forebears came from.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So that's the eastern Frankish kingdom stretching in beyond the Rhine into Germany. He's the master of Neustria, which is the Frankish kingdom that extends along the line of the Channel. He has, in the wake of the Battle of Tours, he's moved southwards to start trying to bring Provence and Aquitaine under his rule.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So for Charles, the defeat of the invading Emmaids, the invading Saracens, I mean, this is brilliant. It's excellent for his reputation. But the thing he really cares about is fashioning a proper empire out of all the disparate parts of the kind of the Regnum Francorum, the kingdom of the Franks.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And Tor helps him, particularly with subordinating Aquitaine, because Odo, the Duke of Aquitaine, who had been Charles's rival, he had been smashed up by the invading Saracens. Odo had come to Charles to ask for help. Charles had agreed, but Odo had had to submit to him. And in 735, actually, Odo retires to a monastery.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Now, his son and his grandson will continue the fight, but basically they're on a losing wicket by this point. There's no way that they're going to ultimately be able to hold out against the might that Charles and his heirs can bring to bear on them. And this is also in the long run true of Muslims in the south of Gaul. So Charles targets them as well. So he advances southwards.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He drives them out from the great fortresses of Arles, of Avignon. He annihilates a massive seaborne expedition of Umayyad forces outside Narbonne. There's descriptions of the Muslim fugitives trying desperately to swim back to their ships, being pursued by the victorious Franks, being speared in the shallows and the lagoons like tuna. Fabulous stuff, if you're a Frank.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And by 741, which is when Charles Martel finally dies... His armies, so the Franks under his leadership, pretty much have the range of lands stretching from the Pyrenees all the way to the Danube. So a vast, vast expanse of territory. So the Frankish lords of southern Gaul and the Emmaids, these are people who've been comprehensively hammered by Charles Martel, but they're not alone.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So too have a very distinctive class in Frankish society. And these are the bishops. And we talked about this in the first episode we did on, you know, the age of Clovis. The bishops, almost without exception, are the heirs of the kind of the old Gallo-Roman aristocracy.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
The kind of senatorial figures who had been the wealthy elites of Roman Gaul. And these families still preserve their authority. through the institution of the episcopate, through having themselves elected by their local cities as bishops. If you want an example of a class of people who preserve the traditions of the vanished Roman Empire, Frankish bishops are your guys.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
So they're very learned, they're very scholarly, they're kind of educated in classical poetry as well as in the Bible and all that kind of stuff.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
They may well play a kind of part on the great national stage, but ultimately their real loyalty isn't to the kind of the distant Frankish king or, you know, in the case of Charles Martel, the distant Frankish mayor, but to the local city, the local community that they represent on the stage of Gaul and whose peoples have elected them.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And for the vast majority of Franks, it's the bishops who kind of mediate between the mass of Christians and the dimension of the divine. And they're able to do this because they are almost invariably the descendants of saints and bishops whose tombs are in the cathedrals where they sit. So it's a kind of family project.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And the effect of this is that all across Gaul, wherever you go, there are these tombs of martyrs, of holy men, of bishops. I mean, Saint Martin is the most famous of these, but he's by no means the only one. And it enables the Franks, when they look at their bishops,
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
to feel not just that they have living links with the vanished realm of Rome, I mean, they don't really care about this by this point, but they can look at their bishops and feel these are venerable representatives of a very, very ancient Christianity. And it enables them to feel that Gaul is like a kind of holy land, a Christian holy land.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
They don't really need, for instance, the sanction of the papacy or whatever.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Yeah. Essentially, they're spiritually self-sufficient. And this has been the case ever since the first emergence of the Frankish monarchy. But the thing about Charles Martel, he doesn't like this at all. He won't tolerate an alternative power base, presumably. Yeah, basically. He doesn't like these bishops. They're too independent. They're too able to defy his will.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
And so what he wants is to replace them with his own kinsmen, with his own trusted allies. And it doesn't matter to Charles if the bishops he appoints you know, kind of know Virgil or whatever.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
He doesn't care about their educational standards or whether they have local links to the cities that they are going to serve as bishops for, or if they have family connections to the saints whose tombs lie in their cathedrals. So that class of person is being elbowed aside and Charles is putting in their place, you Effectively, this is, I think, the final extinction of Roman Gaul.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
This is where Gaul, if you like, becomes Francia. And Francia is the word that will give us the name of France. So you can see Gaul becoming France at this point. under the rule of Charles Martel. And Patrick Geary, who's one of the great historians of this process, it's so interesting. So I'll read what he says in full.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
Charles Martel accomplished what no other secular power had been able to do in the previous two centuries by his manipulation of ecclesiastical office. So, you know, getting rid of all these bishops and replacing them with his own men.
The Rest Is History
523. Charlemagne: Return of the Kings (Part 1)
By the confiscation of the wealth it controlled and by the appointment of ignorant and entirely worldly lay supporters, he finally succeeded in destroying the religious basis on which had long rested the independent power of the Frankish bishops.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
But I suppose Danzig is slightly different to, say, Austria or the Statenland, in that those were never part of Germany, whereas Danzig had been part of Germany. Yeah. So it'd be like for us, I don't know, Bournemouth was an open city or something. You'd think, hmm.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And I will continue this struggle against any enemy until the safety and rights of the Reich are secured. I am asking no more of any German than what I did myself for four years. There will be no hardships that I do not share. From this moment on, my entire life belongs to my people. I want nothing else now than to be the first soldier of the German Reich.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
I think it's that that's more important, because obviously Hitler despises him too. I mean, everyone hates him. Yeah. But it's the perceived weakness of Britain and France, surely. Because Stalin is a strong man. And so he respects, even if he fears, other strong men.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
It just seems disrespectful of Stalin not to respond to a man with so many names. Yes. A peace mission led by a man with so many names. Yes.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And that's another key thing, isn't it? Yeah. That the British and French governments do have parliaments and electorates to answer to. Exactly. Whereas neither Hitler nor Stalin have to worry about that. Exactly. And obviously... Communists and fascists respectively will be appalled at the idea of cozying up to the enemy.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Is that like Charles Martel?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And who do you think the them is?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
I have now put on the same uniform that was once so dear, so sacred to me. I will only take it off when victory is won, or else I will not live to see it. So, Dominic, the unmistakable tones there of Adolf Hitler, and he was addressing the Reichstag on the 1st of September 1939.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
The communists, of course, are... They're more, I guess, ideologically principled on this kind of thing, I guess.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
You'd be worried, I guess, if you were kind of human resources manager, if you heard the boss of your organization talking like that.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Yeah. So it's that personal contact again, isn't it?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And this was on the occasion of the declaration of war on Poland, which in effect, I know that historians of China may disagree, but let's run with this. It's basically the outbreak of the Second World War. Yeah. And I gave him there, you know, doing his kind of rant. People on YouTube were able to see me gesticulating and all of that, frothing.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Of course they do. Even 10 years.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
But actually, he was quite hesitant, really, wasn't he? He kind of occasionally stumbled over his words, seemed a bit nervous. Yes. You know, he's been looking forward to this great moment. And now when it's come, I mean, is there kind of a slight measure of doubt?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
As a sparkling wine. That's true.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Well, when we get bombshells in the rest of history, we generally like to take a break. So I think that is what we will do.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. And Dominic, a bombshell has just exploded in the form of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It has. Hitler and Stalin have divided up Eastern Europe between them. And how does this all go down?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Because Hitler's very anti-smoking, isn't he? Because he was saying in the previous episode how he spent his time wanting to ban them.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
He's a health and safety Nazi.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Well, he's a great man for thinking that there are moderates, aren't there? Yes. So there are extreme Nazis and there are moderate Nazis. Yeah. And I think it's fair to say he's probably not right about that.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
I don't think someone who went to Eton in the first half of the 20th century would blub.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Okay. But the early ones. You don't think they would? No, I mean, that's the whole point of going to Eton is you get beaten if you show a kind of single trace of emotion.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
So, Dominic, I mean, this whole thing on all these episodes, tour de force, magnificent. You've covered yourself in glory. But at this point, you shame yourself. No. You've written in your notes, he, Hitler, is John Lennon.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Again, this is quite reminiscent of the build up to the First World War.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Because Goering has been told, hasn't he, that the Luftwaffe lacks the capacity to bomb Britain.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Tailoring, I think, high on the list.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Can I just ask you, are they mobilising the expectation that Britain and France will declare war on Germany, but more than that, that Britain and France will attack Germany in the West? Yes.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
and that this would therefore give the Poles a fighting chance to survive, do you think, if they'd known that the British and French weren't actually going to do anything, that they were just going to kind of sit there, might they have negotiated in that eventuality?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
So it's a long question.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Well, I mean, I think if you're conveying a sense of Hitler's manic, demonic energy... You've got to go for it. You've got to go for it, haven't you?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Two of these bodies. These are called canned goods, aren't they?
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
I mean, it's important to feel... What's motivating and driving him? Unless you don't understand the war.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
What now? What now indeed? We will be back on Monday to find out what happened next. We'll be doing the story of Poland's heroic resistance, doomed resistance, and the tragedy of its fall and its fate. And if you're a member of the Restless History Club, you can hear that episode right now. But for now, thank you, Dominic. Brilliant stuff. Goodbye. Goodbye.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And this is what Hitler's been chatting about with Albert Speer. Yeah. Interminably. Yeah.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And also you're not well, are you? You're necking quantities of gun oil and stuff. Yes, that's right. You're popping amphetamines.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
So his midlife crisis is starting the Second World War. I mean, some people go to the gym. Some people buy a red motorbike. Yeah. Other people start world conflicts.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And what had been Russia and Britain rules the rest of the world, basically.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
But to his generals, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah. Because on the Western border, Germany is outnumbered six to one by the French.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
But so he doesn't think that invading Poland will bring Britain and France into the war because he despises them as little worms, their leaders.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
It is. And presumably the player that Hitler is on the other side of the game board is France, which a country that has traditional links with a lot of these countries had tried to forge a kind of military alliance. But presumably in the wake of Munich is totally shot, no credibility left at all. And I wonder also,
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
whether by this point there is a sense across most of europe and maybe across most of the world that democracy itself is shot yeah i think so that fascism is the face of the future and that you know the democracies with their shabby leaders in their kind of old-fashioned clothes are just heading towards a scrap heap of history totally there is tom
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Yeah, they want to be on the right side of history. And Chamberlain and Deladier are not on the right side of history.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
But also the ideology behind it, the kind of the image of strength and power that maybe, you know, this is the future.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
I mean, honestly, I mean, if you're signing something called the Pact of Steel, you should know what you're getting yourself into.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
This night, for the first time, Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5.45 a.m., we have been returning their fire. And from now on, bombs will be met by bombs. Whoever fights with poison gas will be fought with poison gas. Whoever departs from the rules of humane warfare can only expect that we shall do the same.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
Another pointer of comparison.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
He's got Unity Mitford with him.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And he goes to this huge festival of German culture in Munich, doesn't he, which has become a kind of annual celebration of basically artworks. Who is it? There's an artist who's called the pubic hair artist or something because he's always sculpting. kind of nudes, German nudes. And Goebbels is all over this.
The Rest Is History
531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)
And he goes there and ogles all the women who are wearing kind of exotic German costumes and things.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
She's very identified with the Girondins, who she sees as being much more sympathetic to female suffrage. And people may remember that she was very, very fond of Louis. She viewed him as having been dealt a bad hand.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And even as the king is being brought to trial, she issues a public statement declaring that the greatest of Louis' crimes is to have been king at a time when philosophy was silently preparing the foundations of our republic. We have abolished royalty. He has lost his subjects, his throne, everything. Let us be good enough to leave him his life.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And I think in saying that, she's probably speaking for a sizable number of the French who probably do feel that.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Well, this is not how the Sankalots see it. So they are furious at this. And a large mob gathers outside her house. With the bravery that is absolutely typical of her, Olympe de Gouges goes down and confronts them on her doorstep. And one of the sans-culottes grabs her by her hair, holding up her face to the crowd and says, let's chop this off. I'm going to auction it off. Who bids for her head?
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And Olympe de Gouges puts in a massive bid. And this is treated by the crowd as immense banter. Hilarious. And so they let her off. So her good humour, her ability to make a joke in the teeth of mob violence, enables her to fight another day. But Louis doesn't fancy her as his legal representative. No. I mean, it would have been amazing if he had. Yeah.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He is not sufficiently progressive to do that. Right. Fortunately, there is another guy. who volunteers. This is a man called Guillaume Chrétien de Malzerbe. He is the absolute embodiment of enlightenment-infused liberalism. He was a friend of Rousseau. He corresponded with Diderot.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He'd been the censor, the national censor under Louis, and he'd allowed Diderot to publish the encyclopedia, which was very radical, very atheist-tinged, very keen botanist. And again, he is a bit like Baptiste. He's an example of how the whirly gig of politics is leaving one-time radicals behind and casting them as reactionaries.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
But he, unlike Baptiste, is prepared to come out and defend the king. So he's actually retired. He's 71. He's kind of very elderly. And he's the one who recruits, as Amanda says, the oratunds. Guy who likes the sound of his own voice. Yeah. There's also another distinguished lawyer called Francois Tonchet.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So the three of them are appointed to defend the king and they have two weeks to prepare their case. And so they go to the cell in the temple where Louis is now being kept in isolation. So he's been separated from his family.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And they start preparing their defence. And it was with Mauserbe that in 1788, Louis had discussed the trial of Charles I. Oh, in 1788. Yeah, interesting. There are foundations there. And of course, Charles' first strategy in his trial had been to refuse to accept the legitimacy of the court.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And Malzahar, who's a very smart lawyer, very familiar with his English history, this is the strategy that he wants Louis to adopt. To insist on the wording of the original written constitution, which says that the king is inviolable. which in turn would be to attack the entire legitimacy of this second revolution that's happened over the course of 1792.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And this is exactly what the Montagnards had been afraid that they would do. The trial would become, it wouldn't just be a trial of Louis, it would be a trial of the new constitutional settlement. So throughout this history, we have discussed how whenever Louis is given an option, he always chooses the dumb option. And this is what he does again. He turns down Malzahar's advice.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He says, no, I'm going to answer all these points that have been raised against him, all the disparagements of his motivations and actions over the course of the previous years since the fall of the Bastille. He's obviously personally indignant about this and he wants to take them down. But of course, it's madness. because he has no prospect of convincing the court.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He has no prospect of making a proper case. Mauser's strategy is the only effective one, I think.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And I think that's what explains his serenity. Absolute conviction that he's completely in the right. Kind of a slight Prince Andrew quality, perhaps. LAUGHTER Wow. You know, just madness. Anyway, he's the king. Well, he's not the king anymore, but as far as Malzahar is concerned, he is. So that's the strategy that they have to adopt. So again, this is very Cromwellian.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
The date for the trial is set on the 26th of December, so the day after Christmas. So there's a kind of deliberate attempt to ignore the sacral quality of the feast day. So on Christmas Day itself, Louis dictates his will to Malzerbe, suggesting that he knows what's going to happen. And then the following day, he's duly brought back to the convention and the trial happens.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And this is when de Seys gives his famous speech. And you asked, does it persuade anyone of Louis' innocence? Probably not. But does it persuade anyone that he should be spared execution? Well, maybe it does, because the convention are... going to vote on whether Louis is guilty. And as you say, that's pretty much guaranteed he will be found guilty. But then they have to decide on a verdict.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And in fact, they end up voting on a third point of principle because the Girondins, at the end of December, who clearly feel that the execution of the king will be seen as a kind of Montagnard triumph, they want to stop that happening. They propose that the verdict that the And this also has the additional benefit of enabling them to pose as the defenders of popular sovereignty.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
I mean, that's the madness. None of them are royalist.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So the Montagnards, they're very indignant at this. They regard it as terrible. And out on the streets of Paris, the sans-culottes also are appalled by the idea that Louis' fate should be protracted. So on the 30th of December, delegates from about 18 of the sections in Paris – so these are the local councils in Paris – petition the convention for the tyrant to be put to death immediately.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And it's full melodrama. They've got women who are carrying the bloody clothes of relatives who died on that day. They've got people who are kind of hobbling in on crutches after they'd been shot in or stabbed in the leg by the Swiss guards. It's all absolutely calculated to tug at the heartstrings of upstanding patriots.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And then just when it seems that things can't get any worse for the Girondins, there's another bombshell. Because early in January, letters are produced showing that three of them, three leading Girondins, had been corresponding with the king in the days building up to the massacre on the 10th of August, the attack on the Tuileries.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah. And their claim is, which I'm sure is absolutely genuine, is, is that they'd been communicating with the king because they were anxious to save the fatherland, because this was the period when the Prussians were advancing and everything seemed in a state of disaster. But obviously this brands them at the very least as lacking in confidence in the martial prowess of the patriotic armies.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So that's a bad look. And of course, it's particularly bad because you mentioned in the previous episode that the correspondence between the king and queen and Mirabeau had been produced from the king's safe. And so this sense that everywhere you look, there is treason and treachery and the mask of patriotism is hiding rankest treason.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Well, I think some people do listen, as we will see, but they, from Louis' point of view, don't listen hard enough, I think you could say. And that translation that you read... It was issued, published only a few weeks after it was delivered. So it was rush translated into English. And I guess it's a reminder of just how seismic an event the trial of the King of France is.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
This again is terrible for the Girondins and it makes them seem like kind of closet royalists. So very good news for the Montagnards.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So all of which means that on the 15th of January, the convention is ready to have these three votes. Is he guilty? Should the verdict go to a referendum? If he is guilty, what should the sentence be? So the first motion is Louis Capet guilty or not guilty. Marat has introduced a motion which is passed that the vote should be public so that no traitors can practice behind kind of secrecy.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And surprise, surprise, a universal, absolute majority. Nobody votes against the guilty verdict. Although there are 26 abstentions. There are 26 abstentions. Yes, there are 26 abstentions. So he is duly found guilty. Then there's a vote on should it go to a referendum? And this is defeated 425 to 286. So that is a very embarrassing defeat for the Girondins.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And then there's the vote on what Louis' punishment should be. And this is an absolutely marathon session. It lasts for over 24 hours. Every deputy has to go up to the tribunal, has to say what he thinks the verdict should be. They are allowed to explain why they have arrived at their decision. Some podcast style, duly go on for hours and hours. Others give slightly more concise summaries.
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And various decisions are given. So the obvious one is death. The Montagnards are all over this. They think this is a great idea, so they're very keen. It is Robespierre, unsurprisingly, who gives the most ringing and kind of Roman explanation for it. I am inflexible in relation to impressors, he declares, because I am compassionate towards the oppressed.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
I do not recognise the humanity that butchers the people and pardons despots. So this is how the man who had been very much against the death penalty Justifies it.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He's all about heart, all heart. And Dominic, the most startling person to vote for the death penalty?
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
even death with a recommendation that the king be reprieved, because that is what some people vote for. So death and then a pardon. Yeah. Others vote for exile. And this is generally proposed for geopolitical reasons that the king should be kept as a hostage. And then when peace terms have been negotiated with the kind of hostile powers, then perhaps he can be sent off into exile.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
There is a brilliant spin, a Rousseauist spin on this from Louis-Sebastien Mercier, the playwright who was a friend of Olympe de Gouges, who in the long run will become a counter-revolutionary. But he's a delegate in the convention.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And he proposes that the royal family be transported to Tahiti or some other island in the south so that contact with nature in the simplicity of a fishing hut would rehabilitate them.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah, a Tahitian maiden. She could do fishing and surfing like Joseph Banks. It would be great. And Mercier is one of several delegates who say that he's found it very difficult. Weighing up the pros and cons has made him physically ill. Huge stress.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
There are other people who vote, a minority who vote for kind of life imprisonment in irons or under very strict surveillance, which of course would have made Louis XVI the second member of the royal family after the man in the iron mask. Of course. Such a fate. Very good. Very good. And then there are a couple of people suggest that Louis should be sent to the galleys. Like Jean Valjean.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
I mean, it completely transfixes France, obviously, but Britain, all of Europe. I In Britain and in the other monarchies of Europe, public opinion by and large is appalled, even though obviously in England, the English had actually set a precedent because they had tried and executed a king themselves in the form of Charles I. Not uncontroversial, right? Right.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Like Jean Valjean in Les Miserables. So one of them is a very hardcore Republican called Joseph-Marie Lequignot, who is from Brittany, a lawyer.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
inevitably the reason he argues for it is that he says that this will be a punishment much worse than death because of course it's living hell and Louis it has to be said doesn't seem the kind of man whose physique would lend itself to a lot of strenuous rowing and then there's Condorcet You know, this great enthusiast, a man of compassion who is opposed on principle to the death penalty.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And this is why he votes, because he says that he disapproves of the death penalty. And going to the galleys is, you know, if you're not being killed, then you get sent to the galleys. Anyway, so these are all the various options. The vote concludes on the evening of the 17th of January. And the tally is actually incredibly close. And the king is sentenced to death by one vote. One vote?
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
It's more if you include the number of people who voted for death but recommended that he be pardoned. And that is kind of tallied. I mean, madly, the Girondins, they call for reprieve. They ask for another roll call vote. I mean, absolute madness. And that again is rejected. So the final verdict is delivered three o'clock in the morning of the 18th of January. Dawn is a few hours off. And
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
It's bad for the Girondins because they now, again, they've kind of confirmed this sense among the Montagnards that they're closet royalists. But of course the person it's really bad for is the erstwhile King Louis Capet. And so his lawyers who have been standing the whole way through this vote, they haven't been given chairs. So it may be that, um, uh,
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That fat bloke would have been in real trouble. He had some justification. Anyway, they are allowed to give their response to the verdict. And Malzahar, who's a famous orator, gets to the tribunal, tries to give his talk, can't, breaks down in tears. This is a tremendous display of sensibility. Everyone else is in tears. It's very Rousseau. And he then goes from the convention to the temple.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He is led into the presence of the convicted criminal, Louis Capet. Again, he tries to tell Louis what's happened. Again, he dissolves into tears. He falls at Louis' feet. And it's at Louis' feet that he announces the verdict of the convention.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
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The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
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The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
But it's not just in foreign monarchies that public opinion is appalled because there are also deep reservoirs of royalism in France. And the assumption that a king is inviolate, down to the most basic level, that people shouldn't touch him, without strict protections of ritual and so on. This is deeply, deeply ingrained. It's been a theme of French history for a millennium and more.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah, everyone comments on this, that almost from the moment he's brought to trial, he does maintain this kind of incredible display of sans foi, I guess is the only word for it. So the delegation from the convention come to see him on the afternoon of the 20th of January. So that's a Sunday and they arrive early afternoon at two o'clock.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And the delegation includes Jacques Hébert, who is the guy who's always writing abusive pamphlets and so on, coming up with the kind of Trumpian nicknames for his enemies. And the Minister of Justice, who is a man called Joseph Garin. And they come into Louis Selle and they read out the sentence of the court to him. And Louis has prepared a list, written list of three requests.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So the first of these, he asks a delay of three days to be able to prepare myself to appear in the presence of God. This is rejected. He's told he is going to be executed in the morning. So on the 21st of January, then he requests freedom for his family.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And you said how when he was with them for the four months of his imprisonment before the trial start, he had been living like a kind of middle class family under COVID with a garden, homeschooling, all that kind of thing. So I guess he's had a kind of last experience as the family man that I think he always was at heart. So he's had that, but now he wants to make sure that they will be set free.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
They will not be set free. So this request too will be rejected. But he is told by Gara, I mean, Gara doesn't dash his hopes at that point. So he says that the nation, always magnanimous, always just, will consider your family's fate. So Louis can go to the guillotine, hoping at least that he's secured the possibility of liberty for his family. Yeah.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
One kind of sub-request to that, though, is granted, which is that Louis will be allowed to see his family for one last time. So as we said, they've been separated. And then his third request is also granted, and this is to hear confession from a priest who has maintained his independence from the kind of the Republican church that's been set up.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So a non-juring priest, as they're called, one who hasn't sworn the oath of loyalty to the Republic. And so Louis has had a recommendation from his sister, Madame Elizabeth, who is imprisoned in the temple with him. And this amazingly is an Irishman. It's a guy called Henry Essex Edgeworth, who is the son of an Irish convert and is related to Maria Edgeworth.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah. So he'd been the son of a Church of Ireland priest who had converted to Catholicism when Henry was four and they'd moved to France. And Edward had been brought up by the Jesuits in Toulouse. He'd become a priest. He'd become l'abbé de Firmont. And he had become Madame Elizabeth's confessor in 1791. And he's very respected, even by the kind of the sans-culottes, by the revolutionary leaders.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He's admired. And so he is allowed access to the king, or the ex-king, I should say. And he arrives at the temple that evening at seven o'clock. And from this point on, he will stay with the king until the very point of his execution. Right. So an hour after the Abbe de Firmont has arrived, Louis' family are brought into his presence.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So that's Marie-Antoinette, the Dauphin, his son, his daughter, Madame Royale, and his sister, Madame Elisabeth. And they're taken into the cell. And although the guards keep watch, they can't hear what is said. And the best account we have of this comes from the man who's been serving Louis as his valet. He's a man called Jean-Baptiste Clery.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And he had been appointed to the role of valet by the municipality of Paris. He's a Republican. He's a revolutionary. But over the course of his term of service, he has basically been turned. You know, he comes to admire and respect Louis for his serene behavior, for his sang-froid, for his stiff upper lip.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And in due course, he comes to write a very favorable account of Louis' last months and days and hours. And he says of this meeting, this last meeting between Louis and his family, it was impossible to hear anything. One only saw that after each phrase of the king, the sobs of the princesses redoubled and that then the king began again to speak.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
It was easy to judge from their movements that he himself had told them of his condemnation. And they're together for two hours and they can't bear to be parted. And in the end, it's Louis, Louis himself says, look, don't worry. You can see me again tomorrow morning before I go to the guillotine. And this is a lie, but it's designed to get them out of the cell in a mood of hope.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That sense that a king's actions are inviolate, it had been so hardwired that it had been written into the constitution that had been issued in 1791 and which Louis had accepted. And in that, it had specified that only if a king had set himself at the head of a hostile army could he be reckoned to have abdicated the throne.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
But as the family are being ushered out, his daughter, the Princess Royale, bursts into floods of tears, hugs her father, collapses in a dead faint, and the family all gather around, bring her back. And this is the last time that they spend time together.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That's the last time that they are together. Meanwhile, the king is not the only person who has been hanging out with a priest because someone else has been receiving absolution. And this is someone that we mentioned in our last series. It's the man who will be operating the guillotine and executing the king the next morning. And this is Henri Sanson, the man who had been the royal executioner.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And who is, I guess, a kind of living link between the Ancien Régime and the new world that the revolution has ushered in.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yes. And we did an episode on how all the kind of the weirdness surrounding executions and indeed the role of the executioner had been systematically got rid of by the Republican legislators. So Samson, who had been the sinister figure in scarlet robes, who could just walk through marketplaces and grab whatever he wanted and wasn't allowed to go to theatres and things.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He's now a state functionary. And the emphasis is on The rational, the mechanical, the everyday. And so it's been decided that the king will be executed like any other criminal now in France by the guillotine. Yeah. for the execution of a former king.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
They fix on the largest open square in the whole of Paris, which is what today is the Place de la Concorde, but had originally been the Place Louis XV. There had been a huge statue of Louis XV on a pedestal that had been removed back in August 1792, so the pedestal is now empty. Actually, in due course, a large statue of liberty will be set up on it.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
It's also next to the Tuileries, so there's a kind of symbolic resonance there as well, because the Tuileries is seen as this place where the blood of citizens had been spilled on the orders of the tyrant. So it's fitting that he be put to death within eyesight of it. And the Place Louis-Cannes has been renamed the Place de la Révolution. Symbolically, it works on pretty much every level.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And so the guillotine is brought there. It's set up in the middle of it. And Sanson, he checks the hinges. He gets out the oil, makes sure the blade is properly weighted, sharpens it. And the whole point is the death is something... Kind of Republican, something progressive. Clean and modern. Clean and modern. So not appropriate to the dispatch, not just of a king, but of monarchy itself.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So the day dawns and massive preparations have been made. So armed men, soldiers, members of the National Guard have been ordered to line the entire route from the temple to the Place de la Révolution to make sure that the crowds are kept back. And more importantly, that royalists can't kind of try and make an attempt to rescue the king or anything like that.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
But otherwise, and this is something that Louis himself points out at his trial, the king's person is inviolable and sacred. That is what the constitution had said. But we've been talking about this second revolution that has overwhelmed Paris and France over the course of 1792.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
One thing that isn't like Charles I, though, where members of the general public were allowed to watch the execution, in the Place de la Révolution, it's only soldiers. So there are only armed men, about 80,000 of them. There are 84 pieces of artillery. So the people there, they're armed and they're complete revolutionaries. They're complete Republicans. There's no doubt about that.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Exactly. Blast him to pieces. So orders are issued that anyone who cries out for the king to be pardoned or who gives any manifestation of royalist sympathy at all will be arrested and imprisoned. Because the delegates to the convention, they're worried about the natural compassion of the feminine. They're worried that women are more prone to displays of sympathy than men.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
A decree is ordered that all women are should stay in their homes. They're not allowed out to watch the display and execution. All houses are ordered to be shuttered. So again, people can't lean out and kind of watch the passing display. And the mayor of Paris has a very stentorian notice plastered across the walls of the city so that everyone can read it.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
The sword of the law, this notice declares, will strike the greatest and the guiltiest of conspirators. You have, citizens of Paris, during the course of this long trial, maintained the calm that is suitable for free men. You will know how to preserve it at the instant of the execution of the tyrant.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
You will prove by the decorum of your behaviour that an act of justice in no way resembles vengeance. That day will be, for kings and for peoples, at once a memorable example of the just punishment of despots. and of the mournful dignity that a sovereign people must keep in the exercise of its power. And the thing is, people in the revolution just cannot stop talking like that. That's true. Yeah.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
All speeches, all public proclamations, they all sound like they've been lifted from a school book of Latin prose. Yeah, they do, don't they?
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That's how they think a revolutionary should write. So early hours of the morning, the streets of Paris are sounding to the rumble of the artillery being taken into the Place de la Révolution. You hear the clopping of hooves of the cavalry riding to take up place, the tread of soldiers taking up their positions.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
5am, Samson, the executioner, is wakened by his assistant so that he can go again, you know, check all the mechanics and everything. He doesn't want it to go wrong. And at the same time in the temple, five o'clock, Louis is wakened by Clary, his valet, who shaves him. 6 a.m. Louis' last confession with the Abbe de Firmont, his confessor. He has not eaten the night before.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He doesn't eat now because the last rites are accompanied by fasting. 7am, he is dressed by Clary. He wears, we're told, a fresh shirt, a white waistcoat, grey trousers, a light jacket. And Louis takes off his wedding ring to be given to Marie Antoinette. And he has a royal seal, which he's taken from his watch. So that hadn't been confiscated. And this is to be given to his son.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And it is precisely that sense of inviolability, precisely the sense that the king's very body is somehow sacred, that the deputies in the National Convention, that is what they're trying to destroy. They're not just trying to destroy the person of Louis. They're trying to destroy the figure of the king and everything, all the sacrality that is associated with him.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And his son, of course, before the morning is out, will become, if you are a royalist, Louis XVII. 7.45, a delegation from the city of Paris arrives. They are accompanied by 14 soldiers. They stand to attention in two rows outside Louis' cell.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Louis asks for permission for Clary to cut his hair at the nape of his neck because he doesn't want the humiliation of having Samson, the executioner, do it, which is something, of course, that Samson has done many, many times over the course of his career. But this has denied him. He is a common criminal. He is going to be treated like a common criminal. Louis then kneels down.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He's blessed by the Abbe. They then stand around. It's a bit of embarrassment. Nobody's quite sure what to do. So Louis then says, pardon, let's head off. Let's go. They go outside. It's very cold. There's a fog everywhere. So hard to see through the gloom.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
out in the streets piles of snow so that people can get by along the road i said that uh louis to be treated like a common criminal there is one exception to this and that is that he is given a coach so he's not put in the tumbril in the open cart and the reason for that is basically security if he's in the coach it's much easier to guard him and the coach has been provided by garab the minister of justice it's a great bottle green thing although not as large as the coach that uh
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Not the Varen super coach. The Varen wasp-like coach that they take into Varen. So Louis gets into the coach. There are two members of the security services, I suppose you could say, sitting on either side. The Abbe sits at the front. And the whole way there, Louis is murmuring the prayer of the dying over and over to himself. Otherwise, he doesn't say anything.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And as they set off, there are 100 mounted police behind it, 100 mounted members of the National Guard. So the rumbling of the wheels, the clopping of the horses, generally silence from the watching crowds who are massed behind the lines of the guards along the route. They set off at eight o'clock and it takes them two hours to get there.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And in the course of those two hours, there are two royalist attempts to reach Louis. They're both easily subdued, easily stopped. And at 10 o'clock, the carriage arrives in the Place de la Révolution and it stands still for five minutes. And then Saint-Saëns' assistant steps up to it, opens up the door, the steps are pulled down and Louis is seized by Saint-Saëns and his assistants.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
When they touch him, Louis loses his sense of composure because we've talked about that sense that the king's body is inviolate. How dare people manhandle him? But then he catches the eye of his confessor, of the abbé, and the abbé kind of says, you know, don't do this. You don't need to do this. And clearly they've talked about the passion of Christ and essentially Louis is thinking, well,
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
His saviour suffered worse. So he accepts to be handled by the executioners. So he then takes off his coat and he pulls down his shirt so that his neck is open. His wrists are bound behind his back. His wig is taken off and then Sansol comes with the shears, with the clippers, and his hair is cut so that the nape of his neck is exposed. He climbs up to the guillotine.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He has to lean on the Abbe because he's got his hands behind his back, so a bit unstable. And when he gets onto the scaffold, he tries to address the crowd and he seems to have uttered a few sentences. So according to various accounts, he says, people, I die innocent of the crimes that they ascribe to me.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
I forgive the authors of my death and I pray to God that the blood you are about to spill will never fall back upon France. And at this point, there is a great drum roll. The captain of the guard has been prepared to do this should Louis try to make a public speech. And so Louis' voice is drowned out. As the drums are rolling, Samson's assistants get hold of Louis.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And that's why they're bringing him to trial. That's the whole point of it. And of course, they know that the eyes of the world are upon them. The international situation for this is incredibly important. We were talking yesterday about these amazing successes that French arms have been having. They've been going into Switzerland and into Nice and into...
The Rest Is History
547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
They strap him down onto the board and they push him out so that his head is protruding, ready for the blade to cut through the neck. It's Samson himself who pulls on the cord. The blade hisses down, cuts straight through Louis' neck, and the head drops into the basket. And it is 10.22 a.m. Samson then does what he'd do with any beheaded criminal. He picks up the head and he shows it to the crowd.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And the people roar back in answer, « Vive la nation! Vive la République! » There is then the sound of gunfire of artillery to mark the moment. And in the distant temple, Marie Antoinette hears it. She knows what it signals. And she drops to her knees before her son, who a few minutes before had been the Dauphin.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And now, in the opinion of Marie Antoinette and all royalists in France, is Louis XVII.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So Mara, a couple of days later, he describes the public mood on that day in the hours that follow Louis' execution. And he says that the people seemed animated with a serene joy. One might have said that they had just attended a religious festival. And he
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He might well have put it like that because essentially, and Mara is very conscious of this, what has been staged is a kind of ritual of sacrifice. And it's a sacrifice that has enabled the Republic to be born in a way that it had not previously been born. So Mara, in the article he wrote on the 23rd, so two days after the execution, he goes on to say, the head of the tyrant has just fallen.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
The same blow has overthrown the foundations of monarchy among us. His life is no more. His body is now nothing but a corpse. At last, I believe in the Republic. It's amazing, the Mara of all people, this is what it has taken for him to believe that that the Republic exists at last.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And there's a massive paradox here because Louis did have to die as a king for the Republic to be born because otherwise the sacrifice wouldn't have had the quality that it does have. But the moment he's dead and the Republic has been given existence, then his body has to be treated as though he had been nothing, as though he's just an ordinary citizen convicted of a crime.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Nothing more, nothing less, no kind of special treatment in any way. So certainly Louis' body is not allowed to be buried in the royal catacombs or anything like that. There had been a request before the execution from royalists for him to be buried next to his father. That had been denied. But at the same time, no special kind of desecration, no humiliations perpetrated on the corpse.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
the Austrian Netherlands, what's now Belgium. And the justification for this is precisely the overthrow, not just of tyranny and monarchy in France, but across Europe, across the world. I mean, we were saying that the French revolutionary leaders are seeing what they're doing in cosmic terms. It's kind of Trotskyite in that sense, isn't it?
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Instead, he has to be buried, the convention has decreed, in the ordinary place of burial for citizens in the section that includes where he will be executed. That's what they've said. So just as though he's any other condemned criminal. So he gets taken to the church that serves as the burial ground for executed criminals.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
His funeral service is conducted not by the Abbe, who had been his confessor, but by a priest who is acceptable to the Republic, to the revolutionaries. His body is then thrown into a ditch on a bed of quicklime, which will help it become kind of mulch. The head is tossed in as well, and then it's covered by more quicklime. So this is a communal grave. There is to be no marker.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Instead, it is left mingled up with other corpses where it will decompose. The whole thing, it's no special treatment whatsoever. And that's the intention. But of course, in the long run, It turns out neither side really content with the spin on the execution of Louis or the fate of his body. And so for royalists, obviously, this is a terrible crime.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And as had happened with Charles I, so with Louis XVI, it doesn't take them long before they are comparing Louis' fate to that of Christ's. Right. A martyr. He's a martyr. Yeah, he's a Christian martyr. A martyr for monarchy, but above all, a martyr for the true church.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
But Republicans as well, and it may be that they are reacting to the kind of the royalist propaganda. They find it impossible to rest content with the idea that Louis had died simply as a common criminal.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So already within a week of Louis' execution, you get newspapers claiming that his death, rather than being what it had been, which was something wholly unexceptional, that had been the whole point, had actually been something shameful and disgraceful. So in one paper, you get an account at the instant that speech was so brutally taken from him by a definite beating of drums.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So this is a claim that is quite often made, that it took two goes of the guillotine to sever his neck. Which is not true. And also there are reports that as he died, he let out a piercing scream. Again, not true. You know, his vocal cords have been severed.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And there are also claims which supposedly derived from Sanson and Sanson, you know, they become so repeated that Sanson actually has to publicly reject them that on the night before his execution and. the hours before he's taken to, to the guillotine, Louis had been stuffing his face. And this is to repeat the old child, you know, that he's the pig, the pig King.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And there are accounts that, you know, he'd been so fat that he hadn't fitted onto the board that, you know, that he's executed on. And there's another one that he's, you know, he's the, the bulges and folds of his neck had been so obese that he wouldn't fit in the slot. Again, not true. I mean, simply not true.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yes, he had. And so it's an attempt to kind of contradict that. And what it does, of course, is, is to ensure that Louis' execution, rather than providing, as it were, a clear cut between the age of monarchy and the Republic, and that the Republic is now uncontested. It's not uncontested at all. The way in which both Royalists and Republicans try and rewrite the story of Louis' execution
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
actually bodes very ill for France because it suggests that there are deep, entrenched, principled opinions about what has been done, that there isn't really any hope of reconciling them. It suggests that even though perhaps the foreign threats to France have been beaten off.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Although who knows for how long now that the king has been executed, who knows what the international response to that will be. But that may not be the worst of it because it suggests that actually within the body of France itself, a civil war may be brewing.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah. So it's monarchy. It's the very concept of monarchy itself. So one of the deputies who's pushing for the guilty verdict on the king says that the verdict that is delivered on Louis must serve as an example for all nations. So this is very pointed. If it's Louis XVI today, then perhaps it will be George III in a court in London tomorrow. That's a horrendous thought, Tom. Yeah.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Well, OK, so we shouldn't exaggerate how focused on other countries the delegates are. I mean, they are. But of course, their real focus is on France itself. And again, we talked yesterday how it's important for the new republic because there hasn't been a formal proclamation of a republic. So just to quote Antoine de Becque. Dominic, do you want to insert your joke there?
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That's the joke. Very good. So he wrote this great book, Glory and Terror, Seven Deaths Under the French Revolution. And the Princess de Lambelle is one of those seven deaths, but Louis XVI is another. And he writes, when France entered into a republic in the course of the summer of 1792, it did not solemnly proclaim the foundation of a new regime. The historian can look.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Nowhere will he unearth an official decree in the archives installing the first French Republic. So you do have the image of liberty on the melted royal seal. We talked about that. But otherwise, there isn't really anything kind of symbolically resonant. And I guess that that is what Saint-Just had fixed on in his famous speech when you quoted him yesterday.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
That the king, simply by virtue of being a king, is guilty, since Saint-Just puts it. One cannot reign innocently. And so it's only when the king has been put to death that the republic can properly be born. So in the Marseillaise, there's talk about tainted blood fertilising the soil. And I'm sure that that must be kind of part of what the deputies are thinking.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah, but his blood will fertilize the soil and enable the Republic to kind of flourish and grow and emerge. And there's a sense in which, therefore, I think the deposition, the imprisonment, the trial, and perhaps if he's found guilty, the execution of the king will serve the French Republic as all the various declarations in the American Revolution served the American Republic.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
It's all about the jeopardy.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So tell us exactly how he is brought to trial. Okay. So on the 10th of December, the formal indictment is read out in the National Convention. And Louis is charged with conspiring with the enemies of the French nation against the Republic and of, therefore, of direct treason.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And essentially what they do is they go back over everything that he's done since the outbreak of the revolution in 1789, and they present it in the worst light possible. And if you're a royalist, you might say, well, this is very harsh. Personally, I think actually they've got to be pretty bang to rights because he has been working to undo the revolution.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And the thing is, is that the worst thing that he's been doing, which is essentially, he has been conspiring with the Austrians. He has been writing to monarchs of hostile nations. That correspondence has not come to light, even when the safe was opened. And evidence of that had gone because Louis and Marie Antoinette had been sensible enough to actually burn that.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So they don't even know the worst of it. So, as you say, I think the evidence is pretty bad that he has been betraying the revolution. So the following day on the 11th of December, he is summoned to the convention to face the charges that are going to be levelled against him. And the summons is brought to him by the mayor of Paris.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He, of course, is in the temple where he's been locked up for about four months. The mayor comes into his presence, doesn't take his hat off, doesn't bow, addresses him as Louis Capet. And Louis is very indignant and points out that he is not a Capet, that he is a Bourbon, because the Capets had gone extinct in the early 14th century, which is what had kicked off the Hundred Years' War.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
They'd been replaced by the Valois, and then the Valois had gone extinct, and they'd been replaced by the Bourbons. And so... Why Capet? The reason is precisely because it enables the Republic to demonstrate that it's not just Louis who's on trial, it's the entire line of all the kings that join Hugh Capet to Louis XVI.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah, and I think there's an inherent ambivalence there, because on the one hand, the emphasis is on his role now as someone who has been decrowned, who is just a normal citizen. But of course he isn't. He has to be tried as a king as well. So there's a slight ambivalence there that shadows the entire approach of the Republic to Louis and to his fate.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So he leaves the temple, as we said, for the first time in about four months, a massive lines of soldiers along the streets of the National Guard to make sure that no rescue attempts can be made. He is brought into the convention. He's led to the bar. He is obviously dressed as a private citizen. An onlooker describes him as wearing just a plain yellowish frock coat. He walks in. He looks around.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Everyone is sat. Everyone has their hats on. And onlookers are delighted by his expression of joy. kind of consternation, really. And so one of them wrote, no doubt he was quite surprised to see no other seat for him than a humble chair in a place where he had more than once deployed all the pride and ceremony of royalty.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Remember, readers, the scarlet armchair with Fleur de Lis, which insulted the representatives of the nation. And of course, he is only allowed to sit when he is given permission to do so by the president of the court. And this is to turn the world upside down. You think of all the ritual that had governed behavior at Versailles. And it's utterly upended, isn't it?
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Yeah, and as we'll see, Louis is very familiar with the story of Charles' trial. And it's probably that that enables him, having read that, having read how Charles maintained his dignity in that situation, I'm sure it must steal Louis in this situation. Because when the charges are read out, he is very calm in denying them. People say, even those who are hostile to him, say he seems very serene.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And even when he's shown these papers with his signature on, that have been taken from the safe that, you know, he's clearly banged to rights. And he just said, that's not my signature. It's nothing to do with me at all. And the only time he actually displays any sense of outrage or indignation is when he's accused of shedding French blood. And then he, you know, he is indignant. He protests.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
He says, this is, this is absolutely false. And the reaction to his performance, the Montagnard, so the radicals, Robespierre, Marat and so on, they view this as the rankest hypocrisy. that he is blatantly lying.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
A majority of people in the convention, though, I think they feel sufficiently sympathetic that they decide that Louis should be allowed legal representation because that had not been decided until this point. So Louis is taken back to the temple and he is then allowed to request legal representation.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And so the person he goes for is the guy who probably has the most formidable reputation of any of the lawyers who had been operating And this is the guy who had led the defense of the Prince de Roja in the affair of the diamond necklace. The cardinal guy.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
The cardinal, the cardinal de Roja, who by successfully defending the cardinal de Roja had done terrible damage to Marie Antoinette and to Louis XVI himself, to the very image of the crown. That seems a long time ago now, doesn't it? Diamond necklace affair.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And it must have done to Louis himself, because even though this guy, who's a man called Gijon Baptiste, had inflicted these wounds on the monarchy, in the revolution itself, he had been a very enthusiastic supporter of constitutional monarchy. So he'd been a member of the third estate, but had been a kind of constitutional monarchist. And he'd stuck to that.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
And he was the guy who'd come up with the idea that Louis should no longer be king of France, but should be king of the French. That's very much where he's at. But because of that, of course, he now seems a counter-revolutionary. The guy who had been at the cutting edge of radicalism in 1788 now seems total reactionary. And he's aware of this. And so he says he's not going to do it.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
So this had been... This had been royalist abuse levelled at him right the way back in the trial of the Cardinal de Rohan, that he'd simply been too fat even to stand up. But now he takes advantage of this, says, I can't possibly, you know, I'll just keel over if I have to stand up all this time. So that's his excuse.
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547. The French Revolution: The Execution of the King (Part 4)
Now, fortunately for Louis, there are people who are brave enough to volunteer for the job of defending him. And one of them is our friend Olympe de Gouges. The feminist. Yes. Yes. So she has not been keeping her head out of the firing line. She has been publicly attacking Robespierre, attacking Marat.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
He was speedily reassured and with a large, white, rascally grin and a glance at his charge seemed to take me into partnership in his exalted trust. After all, I also was a part of the great cause of these high and just proceedings. Joseph Conrad, of course, writing in Heart of Darkness, which he wrote in 1899. And he sat down to write that nine years after he himself died.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
They get Africans to do it for them. Well, they get people who've been flogged to kind of give a salute, don't they? They have to stand up and give the salute.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
So this would be like the conquistadors turning up and kind of embroiling themselves in the politics of Mexico. Exactly. But, I mean, the horror is off the scale. There's nothing ever been like anything like this in the Congo.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
But the difference is that there are no journalists on the spot. There are no cameras. There's nothing to record this. It is happening, I suppose, in a kind of darkness, you would say.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
They have no moral qualms about what they're doing.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
had visited the Congo Free State as a merchant seaman, captaining a steamer, the roi de Belge, the king of the Belgians, up the Congo deep into the interior, just as Marlowe in Heart of Darkness will do. And Marlowe is describing their experiences that Conrad himself, we know, definitely had.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Yeah. I mean, he basically, he kind of crawls back to London and just can't talk about what he's seen. Right.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
But going out and killing the parents of boys who you then enslave, I mean, that's a kind of, I mean, dare one say evil?
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I'm aware that similar things happened, for instance, in the conquest of Mexico, but there are Spanish priests who are opposing it. There are voices of conscience in these expeditions.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
But they often seem to be missionaries. Well, we'll come to that. I mean, there are a lot of missionaries who are not working for the Belgian state. I'm just thinking particularly about the officers who are presiding over this horrific system.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I'm always surprised reading accounts of the Belgian officers. And we've talked about how Belgium is not an imperially minded nation. How few of them seem to have had any qualms at all?
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I suppose also it's self-selecting, that perhaps you're going out in the middle of the jungle.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Yeah, but there are bleeding hearts and there are bleeding hearts. I still think it is striking how few of these officers seem to have...
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
He saw scenes like that, preparatory to taking the steamer up the river to meet the mysterious and enigmatic, charismatic Mr. Kurtz.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And what he's seeing, of course, is a chain gang of porters escorted by an armed African officer building the railway that will facilitate Leopold II's control of this vast expanse of the Congo that he's been given at a conference in Berlin where no Africans were in attendance. And Conrad, when he went to the Congo, initially was a true believer.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
So that was the reality of what Marlow called the high and just proceedings of King Leopold's Congo and a somber moment, Dominic, on which I think we should go and take a break. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Dominic, what do you find useful about Nord?
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And Dominic, I know you're all about cybersecurity, so you know better than anyone, it can often be very hard to distinguish fake websites from real ones. But the great news is that Threat Protection Pro will prevent you from accessing them. And do you know what? NordVPN is actually the first and only VPN app to receive the certification that their anti-phishing software, is reliable.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Black shapes crouched, lay, sat between the trees, leaning against the trunks, clinging to the earth, half coming out, half effaced within the dim light, in all the attitudes of pain, abandonment and despair. They were dying slowly, it was very clear.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
They were not enemies, they were not criminals, they were nothing earthly now, nothing but black shadows of disease and starvation, lying confusedly in the greenish gloom, brought from all the recesses of the coast in all the legality of time contracts, lost in uncongenial surroundings, fed on unfamiliar food, they sickened, became inefficient, and were then allowed to crawl away and rest.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
So Conrad again in Heart of Darkness, 1899, and his narrator Marlow has arrived in the Congo and is climbing up the hills that lead to the Congo that is navigable. And he is witnessing workers who are building the railway that will expedite European access to the highlands. And he is not exaggerating there, is he?
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I mean, there were hundreds, thousands of people who died during the construction of that railway.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
People have been familiar with rubber for a while, haven't they? Is it the end of the 18th century that it gets its English name because somebody notices that you can use rubber to rub things out?
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
He trusted the philanthropic intentions of Leopold II, but by the time he left, he had a very, very different perspective. The last line, Dominic, of that passage that we read, I also was a part of the great cause of these high and just proceedings. I mean, a deep and painful sense of irony there. Very
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And also, his investments... In the Congo. I mean, he's quite heavily in debt, isn't he? He is. So he needs to leverage his assets urgently if the whole thing isn't just going to come crashing down around his ears.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Yeah. So there's an official, isn't there, who says, the native doesn't like making rubber. He must be compelled to do it.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
So again, they're saying, basically, go and take hostages, but they're still dressing it up in language that...
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
might not ring too many alarm bells but we know that almost everybody does that i mean we know that the nazis did that then you know people use legalistic language to disguise terrible things they do it almost automatically instinctively sure i i accept that but i mean leopold is still passing himself off as a humanitarian yeah i mean the nazis are not passing themselves off as humanitarian so there's a bit of a difference there i think i suppose so it is kind of striking
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
that they're able to square the circle of, yeah, go and get hostages while simultaneously framing it in a way that makes Leopold look a brilliant guy who cares only for bringing enlightenment to the darkness.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I mean, Dominic, just to emphasise, you said in the previous episode that this bears comparison with the great atrocities of the 20th century. So we should warn people that there are a lot of
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Well, also, aren't a lot of the accounts coming from either people like Conrad, people who had gone in as true believers and come out appalled by what they've seen, or by missionaries who think this is a great opportunity, that Leopold has opened up the darkness of the Congo for the light of Christ, and likewise are... traumatized by what they find.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
I don't see why they would make it up if it wasn't happening. No, I agree.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
A slight clinking behind me made me turn my head. Six black men advanced in a file, toiling up the path. They walked erect and slow, balancing small baskets full of earth on their heads, and the clink kept time with their footsteps. I could see every rib. The joints of their limbs were like knots in a rope. Each had an iron collar on his neck.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And that, again, is part of what Kurtz is about, because Kurtz is the guy who's bringing in more ivory than anyone else. And when he is praised, as Marlow is going up the river, as the guy who is bringing in more ivory, you already have a sense of what that actually means in practice.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Yeah, so that's not good. And Leopold hates his daughters, doesn't he? And one of the great animating ambitions of his life is to ensure they don't inherit anything. Exactly. Hates his wife, hates his daughter, hates Belgium and the Belgians. And also he's got his sister, Carlotta.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
hanging around in the palace, who's gone completely mad because she was married to Maximilian, who is the Habsburg who becomes emperor of Mexico and then gets shot.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And just to reiterate, though, this is progressive brutality because the goal, it's for their own benefit, because in the long run, they won't then have to carry stuff up because there'll be a train. Exactly.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
We should be thinking big. We should dream bigger. So in the Congo, he's a monopolist, but he wants to expand that monopoly into other fields.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Yeah, an incredible man. He fought against Maximilian in Mexico and with the Buffalo Soldiers on the Great Plains. Yes. And am I not right that he goes to Brussels and- is kind of the toast of Brussels because he's black. Yes. But I mean, he's kind of toasted by humanitarian, charitable, Christian, progressive elements within Brussels.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And it's as a representative of black slaves who, because he's actually born free, but I mean, there's this great tide of enthusiasm for abolishing black slavery. And as part of that, he goes to see Leopold. And Leopold says, what I do in the Congo is done as a Christian duty to the poor African, and I do not wish to have one franc back of all the money I have expended. Yeah, shameless.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And this is where I think it's different to the Nazis, is that the Nazis are not pretending. You know, they're not kind of lording black missionaries in their town and saying that they care only for the lives of Africans and they don't. I mean… It's the hypocrisy of it as well as the brutality that is so astonishing and striking.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
This was very popular at the time. So the 1889 World Fair that they had in Paris that built the Eiffel Tower, which was staged, I think, wasn't it to mark the storming of the Bastille? Yes. So, you know... Liberty, equality, fraternity. And they had human zoos with people from Africa. And I've been and seen the site. It's in a kind of wood, very sinister location.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
So we will be hearing about that next week. But if you are a member of the Restless History Club, you can, of course, hear his story and the extraordinary campaign that he launches against Leopold and what he's getting up to in the Congo right now. And if you're not a member, you can sign up at therestlesshistory.com. And for everyone else, we will be back on Monday.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
with the next chapter in this terrifying story. Goodbye. Goodbye.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Oh, yes, this is the famous, notorious one-star review in the Scotsman, is it?
The Rest Is History
539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
This is amazing, Dominic. And the fact that you were cast in this role, it has nothing to do with the fact that Sherlock & Co is a goal-hanger production like this one.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Well, I have no doubt, Dominic, that it is more interesting than The Archers.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
In what court? Presumably there are no courts in the Congo. Leopold is failing all this. I mean, who is this designed to impress? People back in Europe.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
But he's kind of garbing it in legalese. Yes. Just in case outsiders might intrude.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
And India is a very connected country. It's got the railroads now and all that kind of stuff. So people can see what is going on. Exactly. And there are newspapers and there are people on the spot and there are people literate in English among the Indians. Yes, of course. People know what's going on, but that's not the case in the Congo.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
and all were connected together with a chain whose bites swung between them, rhythmically clinking. All their meagre breasts panted together, the violently dilated nostrils quivered, the eyes stared stonily uphill. They passed me within six inches, without a glance, with that complete death-like indifference of unhappy savages.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that Mr. Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, Conrad specifies that he's the son of an Anglo-French union and that all of Europe went into making him.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
That's the other crucial thing to emphasise. No steamboats, no colony. I think that's fair to say. Yeah, because they couldn't get into the interior. The house that walks on water, the Congolese call these boats.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Because Europe is at peace, isn't it? And it's the kind of bourgeois, faintly boring peace. Yes.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Behind this raw matter, one of the reclaimed, the product of the new forces at work, strolled despondently, carrying a rifle by its middle. He had a uniform jacket with one button off, and seeing a white man on the path, hoisted his weapon to his shoulder with alacrity. This was simple prudence, white men being so much alike at a distance that he could not tell who I might be.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Why not? But that sense of freedom is, as we will see, founded on the servitude of others.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
Again, isn't that kind of a tremendous scam? that basically the servitude of these people, chained up, as we heard in that kind of opening passage from Conrad, is justified by saying, well, they need to do it so that we can have the railways so that we won't need porters. Yes, exactly.
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539. Horror in the Congo: The Crimes of Empire (Part 2)
That's the justification.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
They have to give all that up. Yeah, of course, of course.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Particularly the Night of the Long Knives, wasn't it? Which was all based in spas, pretty much. Weddings and spas.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
All the way up there were people at the crossings, the stations and at the windows of the houses, all hailing and saluting. We drove to the brown house a good deal higher up the mountain. Halfway down the steps stood the Fuhrer, bareheaded and dressed in a khaki-coloured coat of broadcloth with a red armlet and a swastika on it and the military cross on his breast.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Nicky Haslam would hate that.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
this seems a great tragic moment. The Czechs have shown their determination. They've mobilised. They've presumably occupied all these fortresses. It just seems awful that they then just surrender it. Yeah. You're taking this very personally, Tom, and not unreasonably. I just think it's a terrible thing. I mean, it's a terrible story.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And we behave so badly, although obviously not as bad as the Nazis. No, it's important to stress that, I think.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
He wore black trousers, such as we wear in the evening, and black patent leather lace-up shoes. His hair is brown, not black. his eyes blue, his expression rather disagreeable, especially in repose, and altogether he looks entirely undistinguished. You would never notice him in a crowd, and would take him for the house painter he once was.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
They are taking a firmish line on it. And they're starting to kind of get ready for war themselves, aren't they? They are. So the French are kind of sending troops up to the Maginot Line. Yeah. There is a sense that... France and Britain are gearing up to take a strong position.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Yet another cliffhanger. I mean, you've promised cliffhangers and they keep coming. Like fire from a machine gun, from a Bren gun, perhaps. So let's take a break now. And when we come back, we'll find out if Britain and Germany do end up at war in 1938.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
I certainly do. One of my green flags is if I meet someone who loves John Lennon, I know we're going to be great friends.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
After saying some words of welcome, he took me up the steps and introduced me to a number of people, among whom I only distinguished General Keitel, a youngish, pleasant-faced, smart-looking soldier. We then entered the house, and passed along a very bare passage to the celebrated chamber, or rather hall, one end of which is entirely occupied by a vast window.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
First of all, I must say something to those who have written to my wife or myself in these last weeks to tell us of their gratitude for my efforts and to assure us of their prayers for my success. Most of these letters have come from women, mothers or sisters of our own countrymen.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But there are countless others besides, from France, from Belgium, from Italy, and even from Germany, and it has been heartbreaking to read the growing anxiety they reveal. If I felt my responsibility heavy before, to read such letters has made it seem almost overwhelming. How horrible! Fantastic!
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. But as long as war has not begun, There is always hope that it may be prevented.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And you know that I am going to work for peace to the last moment. That is Neville Chamberlain, of course, unmistakable tones, addressing the British people on the night of the 27th of September 1938 with a great rousing piece of oratory that deserves to stand beside. The address of Henry V before the Battle of Agincourt. The colours rung up by Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar. Ringing stuff.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Yeah, I mean, listen to that.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And frankly, if you've been through the Great War, that's a completely reasonable position to take. Because that famous line, how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing, very famous phrase and always used to condemn him.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But I mean, there he is absolutely articulating what the mass of people in Britain feel. Yeah, absolutely. And that when Churchill, for instance, who is the most famous anti-episa, says that what Britain is contemplating is shameful, they don't want to hear him say that. No, I think that's absolutely right.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
They think it would be worse.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
The view towards Salzburg must be magnificent.' But to this day, there were only the valley and the bottoms of the mountains to be seen. That was Neville Chamberlain, who was writing to his sister Ida after his trip to Hitler's mountain lair on Thursday, the 15th of September, 1938. And Dominic, he seems to have been completely obsessed with what Hitler was wearing. Amazing attention to detail.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But actually, even in the Nazi high command, there is massive anxiety, isn't there? So Ribbentrop is all, you know, he's all in favour of it. But... Other members of the Nazi high command are thinking, oh, I'm not really not sure about this.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Are we ready? And also in the German army. I mean, they're really nervous about it. So the figures on that is that on Germany's western flank, they are hugely outnumbered by the French army.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But in 1939, the Western Allies did not have an independent Czechoslovakia with strong frontier defences. That's right.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
So it's around this time that the Italian foreign minister bumps into Goering and finds in him a slight suggestion of Al Capone, which is...
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
He's got all kinds of diamond studded tie pins in the shape of swastikas and things.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But I suppose it's a novelty for Chamberlain, Hitler's shoes. Yes, black patent leather lace-up shoes.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
No, because the betrayal has already happened.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Chamberlain is not going to give away anything that he hadn't given away weeks earlier, actually. And this is fatal for Hitler's willingness in future to listen to anything that Goering has to say on foreign policy. So he calls him an old woman, doesn't he? Exactly, he does.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
We pluck this flower. Safety. Of course, Hotspur lost the subsequent battle. He did indeed. So not a good omen.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And presumably there's a famous conference, isn't there, where Disraeli goes? Yeah, Berlin. Yeah. And Disraeli is seen as the guy who has bearded Bismarck in his lair and sorted Europe out. And that must surely be on Chamberlain's mind that he's playing that role.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
No. No. No, I don't think so. I mean, that seems a bad deal. It's a terrible check. It's not a good deal. I see no positive there.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
He's big mates with Sir Neville Henderson, the British ambassador.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
We will be friends forever. And... Everyone will be happy and the flowers will come and everything.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Wheelbarrows and things.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And obviously this is terrible news for the Czechs, but it's also, I mean, it's not great news for the conspirators in the German high command, is it?
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And that is the last coordinated conspiracy against Hitler within Germany until 1944. Until 1944.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Well, I think it might have worked had the Czechs held out, had this resulted in kind of economic meltdown, which was coming anyway. Obviously, the absorption of Czechoslovakia means that economic meltdown is staved off. But I think... I think circumstances might have been different. We'll never know, will we? I mean, that's the thing.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
But he has stared into the eyes of Chamberlain and Deladier, and he... thinks that he sees weakness and pusillanimity and cowardice. Yes. And that therefore he can take them on. I mean, he calls them worms, doesn't he? Little worms. I've seen them. I've seen how contemptible they are. And of course, that is not actually the right... So he is mistaken as well.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Because actually, when Chamberlain gets back, I mean, he does all his paper waving and going on the balcony of Buckingham Palace and things. But he does also say, we've got to rearm. You know, we've got to press the accelerator on this. Yes, he does. He absolutely does. I think...
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Right, because if the British don't want to die for Czechoslovakia, I guess if you're in Wellington or Sydney, I mean, that would be even madder.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Right, Dominic, thank you. Very somber, brilliant account. And we will be telling the terrible story of the build-up to Hitler's war on Poland, its course and its aftermath next week. And members of the Rest Is History Club will get all three episodes of that story on Monday.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And if you're not a member of that club, but you would like to get those episodes on Monday, then you can sign up at therestishistory.com. But either way, we will be back with the Nazi war on Poland on Monday. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
He'd gone up with the future George VI, hadn't he? At some air show or something. Is that right? At an industrial fair in Birmingham in the 1920s.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
He wore black trousers.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Is this from Schmidt or Hitler or from Chamberlain?
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And they all think that Chamberlain is a fuddy-duddy old bloke with an umbrella, don't they? They do indeed. They're all kind of laughing at him and thinking he's ridiculous. And doesn't... Hitler does kind of make an offer to say that he might go to London, but he's worried that he will be heckled by British Jews.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Yeah. Seeing a good man.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Yeah. Well, also, the other thing is, what about the Czechs at this point? Because they're not present at this meeting, which is deciding the fate of their country. So, again, I kind of looked this up and... Checks, so leading Checks, are describing everyone involved in this in kind of very understandably very abusive terms. So they describe Sir Horace Wilson as a sow.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
They refer to the French foreign minister as the swine. So there's a lot of kind of porcine-based imagery. They refer to Chamberlain as the old man. And one of them writes, the Chamberlain government is treating our head of state as if he were N-word chieftain ruling some troublesome colonial tribe.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
I felt quite fresh and was delighted with the enthusiastic welcome of the crowds who were waiting in the rain and who gave me the Nazi salute and shouted Heil at the tops of their voices all the way to the station. There we entered Hitler's special train for the three hours journey to Berchtesgaden.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
And they're right. I mean, the Nazis are obviously behaving in a very colonial manner, but the British are as well. It's kind of like, you know, let's draw a line on the map here and whatever.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
So here's my question. Couldn't the Czechs have fought on anyway? They've got all this industrial hinterland. They've got arms. They've got this incredible Maginot line in the mountains. Very, very impressive, which they will lose if they hand over the sedated land because it's on the flank of the sedated land. Why don't they just fight?
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
Particularly because the German economy is on the point of collapse at this point.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
It's full of German speakers anyway. But the thing is, with those defences, they would have had perhaps a chance. If they surrender those defences, they haven't got any chance at all.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
I mean, you've made comparisons with Russia and Ukraine. I mean, everyone in the West assumed that Ukraine would lose the moment the Russians crossed the border. Yeah. The Czechs seem in a stronger position to me than the Ukrainians.
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529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)
That's a big ask. I suppose, and they've got the Hungarians and the Poles sniffing around as well, haven't they? Yeah, your neighbours fancy a bit of you as well. I just wonder though, I mean, the tragedy of this is that they are very, very impressively defended.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So there's one when it turns out that women are not being allowed in to watch a political session because too many people have gathered there. And one of the Jacobin deputies posing like a Roman. It's exactly the kind of thing that you could imagine someone in the early pages of Livy or Plutarch saying. He orders that more benches be brought in so that they can sit down.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
These are mothers of families, he tells the other delegates. They are worthy of ancient Rome. And it may be because Robespierre in particular is so good at playing the Roman, that he is a particular favourite of these women who come to cheer and support the various Jacobin deputies. And- The fact that Robespierre, despite his kind of slight image of chilly asexuality, is an absolute heartthrob.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
I mean, you know, he has all these groupies. It's kind of noted by his enemies and causes them some degree of puzzlement, I think.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So she is the wife of a Girondin minister, and she essentially is the archetype of the woman who runs a revolutionary salon. So the idea of a salon where movers and shakers meet up, discuss philosophy or current politics or whatever. Again, it's something that is inherited from the Ancien Régime. But Madame Royleau sets up the kind of the classic revolutionary salon, which
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
But she's not just a hostess. I mean, as you said, she is an actor. She, in a way, I mean, is much more forceful, much more dynamic, much more proactive than her husband. So she is the person who comes up with the idea of recruiting the Federer from across France. These are the people who will come singing the Marseillaise from the south of France, for instance. So that's her idea. And
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
In the early months of 1792, as the royal constitution is starting to implode, she is writing letters left, right and centre. She's writing letters to Brissot and his colleagues, accusing them of being time wasters, of supporting the king when his regime is clearly on its uppers. She pushes her husband. to support the suspension of the king. He'd been kind of hesitant about this.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So she's very forceful. She has very strong opinions. And she is able, because of her position in the salon, because she has all these amazing connections, to let her opinions be known. They have an impact. But again, she does not herself think that
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
Marianne, who is this woman wearing the Phrygian cap, the liberty cap. long flowing hair, will become the emblem of France itself. I think it's really striking that two of the emblematic embodiments of modern France, the Marseillaise, its national anthem, and the figure of Marianne, the embodiment of France herself, emerge in precisely these months, the summer going into the autumn of 1792.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
women should play a role in kind of public politics so she doesn't invite other women to her salon you know it's hers and hers alone that's very margaret thatcher isn't it's how margaret thatcher ran her government so madame roland i don't think mrs thatcher would go this far but she says women must inspire political endeavor yet without seeming to be contributing to it right
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And you mentioned Marie Antoinette. I think it's really striking. Madame Roland is very, very hostile to Marie Antoinette. And one of the reasons for this is that she condemns Marie Antoinette for being a malign influence on the king and therefore on politics generally. And so she condemns what she calls the faint rustling of silk behind the royal curtain there.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
The idea that when Louis XVI is being attended by his ministers, Marie Antoinette is there kind of whispering from behind screens.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And of course, the irony of that is that these are precisely the terms in which many of her enemies, so Robespierre, Danton, the Montagnards, the people who opposed to the Girondins and Madame Rollins as Girondins, this is how they condemn her as someone who is kind of hiding behind a curtain, whispering.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And it's to cast her husband as the new Louis XVI. kind of venal, pliable, emasculated. And over the course of that summer, as tensions between the Girondins and those who are kind of further to the left, you might put it like that, she becomes a kind of hate figure for many of the sans-culottes. She's, I guess, what would she be? Kind of poly-toine-bee, perhaps.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And I think that it actually, you know, her role and the things that are said about her and the misogyny that is directed at her ironically kind of, you know, is drawing on the traditions of misogyny that had earlier condemned Marie Antoinette. It helps to polarise the political division between the Montagnards and the Girondins.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And it's kind of striking that it is the Montagnards, those who are furthest left, those who are most committed to perhaps to the ideals of liberty, equality, and of course fraternity, brotherhood, not sisterhood, who are, I think, the readiest to see female claimants to a commanding role in the revolution as actually being counter-revolutionary.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And of course these, on the furthest left, the Robespierre, the Marat, so on, these are the men who most identify with the model of antique virtue, with Spartans, with kind of the Romans of the early Republic.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
Yes, because they saw the role, Spartans paradigmatically, saw the role of women to be wives and to be mothers. So in other words, women who are dedicated to the male citizen, their role is to serve them. to enable them to do their patriotic duty and then to give them more sons who can continue to serve the Republic. This is very clearly drawing on Spartan and Roman ideals.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
It's an ideal that right from the beginning is there in all the festivals that are staged, in the rhetoric, all of that kind of thing. It leaves open the question, which I think we should maybe try and answer after a break, Are there actually any women who are pushing for full political rights? And if there are, what is the response to them?
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
A Thousand Blows is inspired by the remarkable true-life story of the infamous Mary Carr, who led a notorious all-female London gang, the Forty Elephants. And as it's International Women's Day this week, we thought we'd talk about not necessarily the most notorious women in history, but some of the most remarkable ones, didn't we, Dominic?
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
I guess the previous episode that we did where we looked at the September massacres, it didn't really portray the revolution in a great light, did it? If we're absolutely honest.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
Yeah, such a remarkable young woman. I've chosen a young woman who didn't die for liberty, but she was an extraordinary footballer or soccer player, if you're watching this in America. She was called Lily Parr. She was born in St. Helens in Lancashire in 1905. She was part of a huge family, lots of boys. And she, as a girl, loved playing football. Rugby and particularly football.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And when the First World War hit Britain, men's football basically got cancelled. And so everyone started watching women's football instead. And Lily was an incredible. Incredible, incredible player. So when she was 14, she got recruited to play for this munitions factory called Dick Kerr's. Um, and she was only 14 and she scored, I think something like a hundred goals in her first season. Uh,
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
But I think this kind of reminds us that even while people are being dragged out of prisons and hacked to death, there is also an absolutely invigorating and inspiring sense of optimism and hope that is inspiring terrible deeds, yes, but also it's rallying people to the barricades and it's giving people dreams of a better future. a future in which all of the people of France will have a stake.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And she played right the way through the First World War into the aftermath of the Second World War. She was famous for the brutality of her kicking. She said to have broken the leg of one man when she took a free kick. She broke another man's arm and footballs then were really, really heavy. So for her to kick it, I mean, absolutely amazing.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And what made her sporting ability even more remarkable is that she loved smoking and she was never seen without a woodbine between her teeth. And gradually her teeth all rotted and fell out. And in due course, the men who controlled football in England died. got resentful of the fame of the female teams. And so they basically banned them from using the professional football grounds. Very sad.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
But, and so Lily retired and she became a nurse, but she was never forgotten. And she's now celebrated as one of England's, not just greatest sports women, but sports people of all time. And I think that she was the first woman to be inducted into English football's hall of fame. So, you know, I mean, she's not up there with Sophie Scholl, but she was a remarkable, remarkable woman.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So A Thousand Blows, that is, a new original series, and it is streaming right now on Disney+, globally. And if you're watching this in the US, it is on Hulu. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And Dominic, I know you're all about cybersecurity, so you know better than anyone, it can often be very hard to distinguish fake websites from real ones. But the great news is that Threat Protection Pro will prevent you from accessing them. And do you know what? NordVPN is actually the first and only VPN app to receive the certification that their anti-phishing software, is reliable.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So she's from Liege, which is under kind of Austrian ruled low countries. And May 1790, she goes there very ill advisedly, you know, to catch up with all her old friends. And she gets arrested by Austrian agents, put into prison. And the Austrians see this as a great coup because she's notorious as a kind of revolutionary Amazon. And so this is a great prize.
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And they transport her all the way to Austria, where she is kept in prison for months and months. And she's finally released at the end of 1791 because rather sweetly, her jailer has grown very fond of her. She seems to have been a very charismatic person. And the jailer had obviously developed a bit of a shine for her. And so she then gets released and goes back to Paris.
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And of course, her role in the Women's March has now been supplemented by the fact that she's been imprisoned by Austrian despots. I mean, you couldn't have a kind of better calling card, really. And so this gives her a stature among revolutionary men as a hero of the revolution that I think no other woman can rival.
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Because she's been there, she's done the hard yards, she's got the notches in her escutcheon to show that she's really served the revolution. So even before her imprisonment, she had spoken at the Cordelier Club, which is the most radical of all the clubs. And after it, she's allowed to come and give an account of what she'd been getting up to in prison and everything at the Jacquemin Club itself.
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So you mentioned at the end of the last episode, you left us with this absolute cliffhanger, that the Prussians are advancing on Paris. But you also talked about how there is this new political settlement, there's this national convention, and elections are being held to it. And you said, you know, If the Prussians break into Paris, then maybe the convention will never even meet.
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So, you know, these are very, very distinctive, almost kind of unprecedented markers of her status. But I think the very taste of what it would be to be a kind of political player, to be not just a spectator at these clubs, but a participant. makes it all the more frustrating for her that women are essentially kept out of that, that they're not allowed to do it.
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And so she pursues a policy of trying to counter that. So she attempts to found women's only clubs, mixed clubs, but it doesn't work. And it largely doesn't work because women don't really seem to have wanted to participate in them. And then in 1792, she gives up on the whole sitting around and talking because, of course, she's very much a woman for a pistol in a belt.
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And so with Paris being threatened, she agitates for a woman's battalion to be set up to help in the defence of Paris. And again, this is turned down. When the attack on the Tuileries happens, the attack that results in the massacre of the Swiss guards, she's there. She's all over it. It's very much her scene, kind of brandishing pistols again. And for this, she receives public honour.
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But I think that she remains... An anomaly because she's taught between the traditional dimensions of the masculine and the feminine, the kind of the active and the domestic, the political and the person who stays at home fostering and looking after the people who will engage in politics, namely men.
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And in due course, as we will see, because we'll continue her story in subsequent episodes, this tension, it ends up destroying her.
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I mean, I think you're absolutely right that there are women... who, listening to the revolutionary rhetoric, the talk about the rights of men, draw the logical conclusion and say, well, if men have rights, why don't women? And as you said, war seems to have been a particular focus for this. The idea that men should defend the country. If men can defend it, why not women?
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And there are those who want to do that. But equally, the revolutionary authorities regard it as an embarrassment. They don't really want to give any encouragement to it. And that's why nothing really comes of it. There is no revolutionary battalion of Amazons defending the patrie on the barricades.
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And it's left to one woman in particular to hammer home what I think clearly from our perspective seems a monstrous unfairness. And as you said, this is Olymp de Gouges, a woman who is becoming, I think, better known pretty much by the year, would you say? Yeah, better known now than she's ever been, I would say.
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A spoiler alert, the Prussians don't end up advancing on Paris for reasons that we'll discuss in the next episode. The national convention does meet, and it meets on the 20th of September. The deputies who are going there, they're all going to the Tuileries, where the royal family had previously been based, until the massacre of their guards and their removal to what ultimately is their prison.
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And that is because more than anybody else in the revolution, she is exposing this key hypocrisy. If there are rights of men, then why not rights of women? And she is, I think, a very attractive figure. I mean, literally attractive. She's very charming, described in 1770 as one of Paris's prettiest women. But she's just also, her personality is very appealing. She's kind of witty.
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I mean, she seems fun. I think that's probably the best way to describe it. Um, and she's born in the Languedoc, but she comes to Paris in 1768 when she is 20 years old. And she does so initially as the mistress of a wealthy industrialist from Lyon. There is all kinds of gossip in Paris that she is a courtesan. So there is a paper called La Correspondance who writes in, um,
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uh 1770 so two years after her appearance in paris that she's born with a pretty face as her only heritage she is known in paris for some times solely through the favors with which she gratifies her compatriots and one of these compatriots it was rumored was dominate your old friend uh the duke of all your philip egalite truly terrible man with whom she was supposed to have had yeah an affair.
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Whether she had an affair with him or not, she was definitely part of his circle. She goes to the Palais Real, which people may remember is this great complex of buildings in the centre of Paris, owned by the Duke of Orléans, which in the pre-revolutionary world was a place of free thinking. Anything could be published there, anything could be said.
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This is the world into which Olympe de Gouges moves, and she becomes a leading contributor to it. She's fascinated by it. She is obsessed by all the ideas and the currents of conversation, the politics there. And what's amazing about this is that Her background is actually unbelievably poor. She'd arrived in Paris barely able to read or write.
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I mean, much debate among scholars as to whether she could read or write at all. And on top of that, French wasn't even her first language. She spoke Occitan. So she would have liked Marianne. Yeah, she would, yeah. Exactly. Her background is absolutely full of the melodrama that you get in novels of this period. The identity of her father is very mysterious.
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The birth certificate says that she's the daughter of a butcher, but there's much controversy about this. She liked to hint that she was the daughter of a marquee. At times, she might even hint that she was the daughter of the king. So great kind of excitement and swirl of melodrama there.
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And she had then been forced into marriage at a very young age to a man she absolutely hated and who, again, in a very melodramatic way, drowned in a flood. And this is what enabled her then to reject any prospect of future marriage. She hated the institution of marriage, condemned it as a form of slavery and to come to Paris. I mean, clearly as a kept woman, but maybe a courtesan as well.
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But she is very, very smart. And this woman who, when she arrived in Paris, could barely read or write, she very quickly becomes not just a kind of a participant in intellectual debate, but she becomes, first of all, a novelist. and then a playwright. So she writes her first novel in 1784, then gets very into the theatre.
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She becomes a friend of Sébastien Mercier, who we talked about in the previous episode, that playwright who came up with all the horrific details about the death of the Princess de Lamballe. And her most famous play is called L'Esclavage des Noirs, The Slavery of the Blacks. It's a very ripe melodrama about a young girl being reunited with her long-lost father.
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So this is now at the centre of the convention, which is an expression of, in a way, popular sovereignty. What is striking about this, and it's not just in the French context, but in the context of the whole of global history, is that this is a near universal suffrage for men. There are no distinctions of class. There are no distinctions of property.
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So Olympe de Gouges is clearly working issues out there. But it is also very, very vehemently abolitionist. So she is hugely opposed to the slave trade. And The impact of this play is such that the slave trade lobby pay hecklers to go to the theatre and to shout it down.
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And such is the kind of the uproar that this generates that the play can only be staged for three nights and it has to be withdrawn, which is obviously, you know, on one level, very bad for Olymp de Gouges. She wants the message to get out there. She's going to miss out on the money that she would otherwise have earned. But it does make her famous.
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It makes her a figure of prestige and status in the intellectual world of pre-revolutionary Paris. And by and large, I think it's fair to say that anyone who is a committed abolitionist before the revolution, when the revolution comes, is pretty much bound to be in favour of it. Yeah, of course. And Olymp de Gouges is... She's a big fan of the revolution. But with caveats, right?
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Yeah, quite a kind of idiosyncratic take on it. So she always has a very soft spot for Louis XVI. And again, it may be this thing, she identifies with Louis XVI as a man who's unfortunate in his parents, a bit like she was with her father.
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Well, I think she was meant to be the daughter of Louis XV.
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Half-sister. Half-sister. Oh, no, it's too complicated. I can't work it out. But anyway, so she feels that Louis XVI has been dealt a very bad hand by his predecessors, by Louis XV and the people who had gone before. And so she wrote about him, an unhappier king than his ancestors. Is he to be made responsible for their mistakes? So right the way through...
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everything that follows the fall of the Bastille, right the way up to the flight to Varennes when Louis XVI and the royal family try to escape Paris and France. She's very, very, you know, always sticking up for him. When he makes his flight to Varennes, she's very, very disappointed in him. Yeah, understandably. She feels that, you know, he's let her down.
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He's let France down, but worst of all, he's let himself down. But she still feels sorry for him. And I think that's reflective of the fact that above all, she has a big heart, Dominic. She feels the sufferings of others deeply. So whether it's the slaves in the Caribbean, whether it's the poor, whether it's the king, whether it's animals, she's a great animal lover.
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She feels compassion for them all. That's lovely. We love somebody with a big heart. So I think that this explains why she comes to feel, as she does about the revolution, just as the king has let her down, so she feels that the revolution is letting her down. So people may remember, I can't even remember which episode it was now, we've done so many episodes on the revolution, but back in 1791,
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France gets its first written constitution. This is the one that Louis XVI had been trying not to sign, and eventually he feels bulldozed into doing it. It passes into law on the 3rd of September 1791. Louis XVI accepts it ten days later. This is now the constitution that is going to govern France. This is the one that offers a measure of suffrage to men. but not to women.
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And Olympe de Gouges is appalled by this. And she says, well, what about women? Why shouldn't women have the vote? Why shouldn't women have rights as well? And so 12 days later on the 15th of September, she's written this riposte and she publishes it. And it's called, very pointedly, The Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Female Citizen.
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People may remember back in the mists of time that we talked about. Originally, there was this idea of active and passive citizens, weren't there? That active citizens, you had to have certain property qualifications. You couldn't have certain professions. All that has gone. All males, basically over the age of 21, now have the vote.
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So it's an obvious parody of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. And it's a marker of her, again, idiosyncratic take on politics that she dedicates this to Marie Antoinette. It's the last person that you will choose, right?
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And it's simultaneously... a kind of parody of revolutionary idealism, but also I think its ultimate expression. Because by echoing the original Declaration, she's aiming to remind the world what it's missing. So, woman is born free and is equal to man in her rights. She's deliberately parodying the phrases of the Declaration of the Rights of Man.
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And she is demanding that women share in all these rights, which of course includes suffrage. And she articulates this in a very famous way and one that looks forward notoriously to what is to happen in 1793, when she writes, woman has the right to climb onto the scaffold. She must equally have the right to climb onto the tribunal. So in other words, if she can be executed and
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then she should have the right to govern the laws, to vote. Grimly ironic words. Very grimly ironic. Now, what is the response to this declaration of the rights of women? There are certainly revolutionaries who accept, male revolutionaries who accept its force. The most prominent of these is the erstwhile Marquis de Condorcet, who we met again ages ago.
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He's a philosopher, kind of enlightenment philosoph, very, very anti-Christian. He's an economist. He's very agitated by polluted rivers. And like Olympe de Gouges, he's a very committed abolitionist. So all reasons why he would be sympathetic to what she's arguing. And he absolutely supports female suffrage. And I think it's not just Olymp de Gouges who is kind of influencing him on this.
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It's also his own wife, who is a very, very impressive woman called Sophie de Grouchy, who is sister of a guy who will in due course become one of Napoleon's most celebrated marshals, Emmanuel de Grouchy. Now, we've had quite a lot of relationships in this series and indeed in the rest of history generally, where the man is quite a lot older than the woman. So the age gap between
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And I think this is a kind of noble and inspiring moment in history. no matter what your views on the revolution might be, Dominic, would you disagree with that? Or not?
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between uh condor say and sophie is um 20 so she marries him when he's 22 and he's 42 but it's a very happy match um they're both philosophers so you can imagine you know they have a lovely time sitting around discussing diderot or rousseau or whatever and she's also a very skilled linguist and dominic the tremendous news is that her best second language is english good for her
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Right. Yeah. And the Condors say they're not kind of card-carrying Girondins, but they're definitely aligned with them. And I think it's true to say that the Girondins are much more in favour of female participation in public life than the Montagnards. So even though Madame Roland, she's a Girondin, she's not.
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It is a kind of part of intellectual discussion among Girondins Salon that perhaps women, and particularly Condorcet Salon, that perhaps there should be female suffrage. And so it's not surprising that Olympe de Gouges, I mean, she thinks the Girondins are great. She calls them torches of liberty. Taron de Merricourt, she also aligns herself with the Girondins.
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But in general, it has to be said that the reaction to the Declaration of the Rights of Women, when people can be bothered so much as to respond to it, is either hilarity or just utter contempt.
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Yeah. And these are the people who, of course, you know, they're all in favour of Sainte-Culotte wearing the Liberty cap, the Bonnet Rouge, and indeed of the female representative of the Republic, Liberty, the future Marianne wearing the Liberty cap, but not actual women. they try and legislate to stop women from wearing it.
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And their justification for this, it's not just the Spartans, it's not just the Romans. There are also more recent influences of whom the main ones are the philosophes, so Diderot, but particularly Rousseau. I mean, Rousseau has an incredible vein of hostility to any notion of female emancipation, of female suffrage. He wrote in his novel, which was A massive bestseller, La Nouvelle Héloïse.
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A brilliant wife is a plague to her husband, her children, her friends, her valet, everyone. And Rousseau is such a massive influence on the way that particularly young male revolutionaries think that he kind of provides them with a sanction for... kind of celebrating a very overtly masculine ideal of virtue.
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And of course, you know, as we've said earlier, these are all people who are saturated in Roman literature. So they know that the word virtue itself derives from the Latin for man, vir. Virtus is to have masculine qualities. And when these young revolutionaries are playing the Roman, we talked about this in an earlier episode,
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To play the Roman often requires a counterpointing of a kind of masculine virtue against a female inadequacy. So David, the great painter, in 1789, he does a painting of Brutus, the man who expelled the king, the kind of the founder of the Roman Republic. And in this painting, the man is shown stern, unyielding, flinty in the cause of liberty.
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And meanwhile, in the background, you have women having the vapors. They're kind of in hysterics, kind of screaming and generally losing the plot. And it is the role of the man to put the patry first, then the family. It is the role of the woman to stay within the domestic household and to raise citizens who can then go out and play their part. serving the patrie.
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Yeah. And so for men, radicals, even those on, or maybe especially those on the furthest left, it's this combination, this fusion of the ancient and the cutting edge that serves to justify them in their, well, yeah, I mean, their contempt for everything that Olympe de Gouges is arguing for.
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But I think the thing that's unsettling perhaps for us today, and certainly for many of the feminist scholars I read on this, is that it's not just men who are thinking this. A majority of women seem to have thought so too. And Condorcet, who's in favour of female suffrage, he's really puzzled by it.
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And he's one of the people who watches women idolising Robespierre, who's absolutely against female suffrage. And he's kind of really puzzled by it. And so he writes, one wonders sometimes why there are so many women following Robespierre at his home, at the podium of the Jacobin, at the Cordelier, at the convention. And he says... which is absolutely right.
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The voice of John Bull. Otherwise you've got no stake in the system. I think you know that you are just teasing. I'm sure you are a Democrat. Tom, that has thrown you so much. You don't know. I can't believe you.
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Well, maybe one reason for this is that women are reading Rousseau too. And La Nouvelle Héloïse, his great novel, I mean, that's a massive with women. So maybe they're imbibing it. So Madame Roland is a big fan of Rousseau. Rosalie Julien, who you were quoting in the previous episode, I mean, she was a big fan of Rousseau. So, I mean, maybe it's that, but I can't
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I think it's this language of rights, perhaps, that underpins it, which Olympe de Gouges is drawing on. But it also applies to men. So one of the striking things about this election to the convention, which is it's the first really full male suffrage in any election. I think our perspective today would be... People denied a right to vote would embrace it.
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You know, they would feel that a great weight had been lifted off their shoulders, that a great injustice had been righted. But what's striking about that election is how few people participate in it. I think it's something like one in six. Yeah, maybe one in ten.
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That must reflect maybe a bewilderment, a puzzlement, simply an inability to understand what's being offered on the part of men who are being given this right. Presumably, then, the same would be true of women. This is such a kind of novel way of understanding politics and the role of individuals within a polity that people just can't get a handle on it.
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And maybe it's a bit like about slavery, you know, where similar debates are happening. And it's kind of striking that Olympe de Gouges is an abolitionist as well as an enthusiast for female suffrage, that she is... She's arguing for things that today we take so for granted that we can't even understand how people could possibly have thought otherwise.
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come on this is universal suffrage this is democracy in action it's the closest to the modern ideal of democracy that we have it's an ideal that Britain now cleaves to so in that sense you could say that Britain is inspired by this example as well and Marianne And kind of becomes the symbol of it.
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And yet the fact that she is so scorned and despised and mocked does I think remind us of just how revolutionary principles that today we completely accept once were. And I think there's a case for saying that, you know, for all her soft spot for Louis XVI, for all the fact that she dedicates her Declaration of the Rights of Women to Marie Antoinette,
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There is a case for saying that Olympe de Gouges is as radical, if not more radical, than any of the revolutionaries that we've talked about in this series.
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But I think it also suggests that we are beneficiaries of the events that we're describing in this series in ways that we may not appreciate, that we may mistake for truths so self-evident that they don't need to be argued for, that that's not what they are at all, that they are in fact kind of radical, intellectual, ideological innovations that...
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ultimately succeed because we come to feel, yeah, they're absolutely right. But when they are first proposed, just seem absolutely kind of mad.
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And the reason for that is the motion that is brought before the deputies the day after they meet on the 20th of September, on the 21st of September, when they essentially vote to abolish monarchy. Royalty shall be abolished in France is the motion. And this is where... the woman who comes to be called Marianne is introduced.
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Yes, well, it's, yes. But it's nice to hear you finally say something good about the revolution. So Theo will be pleased about that.
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They could sign up to The Rest is History Club. And not only will they be able to hear both the two episodes yet to come, but they will get a slew, Dominic, a slew of additional benefits.
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This is amazing, Dominic. And the fact that you were cast in this role, it has nothing to do with the fact that Sherlock & Co. is a goal-hanger production like this one.
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Because again, to quote from the Élysée Palace, Marianne is the embodiment of the French Republic. And so how does it come about? How does this woman appear? How does she come to be called Marianne? It's actually not until the middle of the 19th century that she's kind of universally called Marianne.
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Yeah, so it's by a guy called Guillaume Lavabre, who is writing in Languedoc. And he writes this poem called La guérison de Marianne, The Healing of Marianne in French. And in that poem, Marianne is clearly an embodiment of the new republic that's been proclaimed. And this is the first equation of the republic with a woman called Marianne.
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But unlike the Marseillaise, it doesn't really spread because it's not as accessible. And it takes a long, long time for that equation to kind of spread. As I said, it's not really until the 19th century. And so originally, the figure of France as a woman, she's not called Marianne. She is very clearly Liberty. and specifically Republican liberty.
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And the emergence of an image of France as a woman who embodies liberty, as we said, this is emerging at the same time as the Marseillaise is being enshrined as the national anthem.
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And so it's expressive of all the convulsions, all the excitements, all the kind of incredible process of change that these months in 1792 that we've been covering in the previous series and in this series are generating. And she appears very precisely in the wake of the abolition of the monarchy when the royal seal, great golden seal of Louis XVI, is melted down and reconfigured.
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And on the new seal of the Republic, this is where Liberty, who will become Marianne, first appears.
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I mean, she's liberty. She's a classical abstraction given female form. And as with so much about the French Revolution, it actually has its roots in the Ancien Régime. So... The painters, illustrators had been showing liberty as this kind of goddess in the years before the revolution breaks out.
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So there was a particularly famous illustration in a book about Henry IV, who was the great hero of France before the revolution. He was seen as the people's king. And this illustration shows him being carried up to heaven by liberty, by this goddess. You know, this is... kind of allegorical illustrations and paintings that really have very little cut through.
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But it's kind of there on the margins. And actually, I think you could say that the very value of Liberty is that she is a kind of a bit of an empty cipher. She's a kind of an abstraction. Right. onto which you can project things.
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So Lynn Hunt, the great scholar of the culture of the French Revolution, particular interest in the role of women in the revolution, she wrote about the figure of liberty, that she represented the virtue so desired by the new order, the transcendence of localism, superstition and particularity in the name of a more disciplined and universalistic worship.
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Liberty was an abstract quality based on reason. She belonged to no group, to no particular place, which is another way of saying that the whole point of liberty is that she's quite boring. She doesn't bring any baggage. It's important because, of course, the marketing of liberty is also a marketing of the Republic.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
She's being stamped on the seal at the point where people don't really know what the Republic is about. What's it going to be? It doesn't have any of the attributes that a thousand-year-old monarchy has. It doesn't bring the inheritance of symbols that France, particularly Royal France, has been absolutely saturated in. Instead, she is She's kind of almost Robespierre.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
She's kind of chilly, poised, uptight, virtuous. And of course, there are the two obvious contrasts here. So even though she will come to be called Mary Ann... She's not Christian. She's not the Virgin. She is a Virgin who is not Christian.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And I think that's, as we will see in probably our next series, what you do with Notre Dame, Our Lady, the Virgin, will be a pointed issue in due course for the Revolution. So Liberty Marianne is not the Virgin Mary. But of course, also, she's not an earthly queen. And more precisely, she is not Marie Antoinette. She is not an aristocratic woman.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And generally women who are, you know, paintings, images, they're from the aristocracy. The whole point of liberty is she is not.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And as you said, there are kind of obviously echoes of Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom. So in due course, she comes to be shown wearing a helmet. She's shown kind of trampling down various monsters representing counter-revolution and monarchy or whatever. So, pretty much within a year of her first appearance on the Great Seal of France, she's starting to become a bit more proactive.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
Of course, the classic expression of this isn't in this French Revolution, but in a later one, in Delacroix's great painting of Liberty leading the people. I'm sure people will have seen it. Liberty standing there in her Liberty cap, urging the revolutionaries on. And I think you get a kind of presentiment of that in the first revolution as well.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
But Dominic, I think there's a kind of interesting question about all this, that France... liberty, the republic, the revolution, are all being imaged by this figure of a beautiful, slightly chilly woman. But what does it mean? I mean, does it have any resonance at all for the actual women who were living through the revolution?
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
Absolutely. So I think we talked before in the previous series about how the idea of the sans-culottes, the man who is wearing trousers rather than the breeches that is kind of the traditional markers of wealth and status, how important dress is. And there are... There are female sans-culottes.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
They're not wearing trousers, but they're wearing coarse woolen skirts, and they're wearing the wooden clogs that are the markers of a sans-culotte. They wear the carmagnole, this kind of jacket that has ultimately come from revolutionaries in Italy. Because of the role that they played in bringing the King and Queen from Versailles to Paris back in 1789,
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And as you said, because of the role that they also play in helping the patriot heroes who stormed the Tuileries in the summer of 1792, they are enshrined as a group, as kind of mothers of the nation. But I think there is a crucial difference between the way that women are portrayed in revolutionary propaganda and the way that men are. Because
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
We've talked about revolutionary figures whose names continue to reverberate down. Everyone has heard of Robespierre or Marin or Desmoulins. These are individuals who stand tall in the pages of history. But women by and large don't. And that is a trend that goes back to the revolution itself.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
So we talked about Marat, who of course in due course will have a meeting with a woman who's not very keen on him in his bath. But before that, he was very proud of himself as a feminist. He marketed himself not just as a friend of the people, but specifically as the friend of women. But when he writes about women, he never names individuals. It's always about the totality of women.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
They are a kind of a mass of humanity who are inspired by a kind of animating energy and animating emotional power. They're spontaneous. This is key to how the march on Versailles is portrayed. They are not individuals. And in that way, they are kept safe. They're not intruding on the kind of masculine sphere.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
And this carries on even when they're not kind of marching on Versailles or attacking palaces or whatever, because women in Paris in particular, which is the cockpit of revolutionary activity, they are very, very keen spectators. So the sense of particularly women from the markets, people, you know, fish wives and as political junkies, is very, very strong.
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545. The French Revolution: The First Feminist (Part 2)
They're generally not allowed to contribute to the public debate itself, but they are given access to the galleries where spectators gather. They take up public seats at the convention when it meets. And... By and large, male revolutionaries are very appreciative of this.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I mean, he's nicer than his mother, for sure. I mean, Augustus agrees that it would be embarrassing to his regime to have Claudius kind of exposed to the public eye. But he does... kind of recognise qualities in Claudius. Read, Tom, to the listeners what Augustus wrote about him. Right, so this is a letter quoted by Suetonius. I mean, I love it when Suetonius quotes letters.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
You feel, you know, really up close. And yeah, Augustus wrote to Olivia, the poor boy has been cheated by fortune for insignificant matters. When he can hold his concentration, the nobility of his spirit is evident enough. Quaterat demonstrandum. There's another letter where he says, it's amazing, I went to hear Claudius give a talk about some academic subject and it was brilliant. Amazing.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I think that it is a kind of general assumption in the Greek and Roman world that people, If you look like an idiot, you are an idiot. That's the kind of core assumption. They're not very woke at all on such matters. But it's evident that Claudius, despite sending streams of snot everywhere when he gets cross, is very intellectual, academically able. So he's fluent in Greek.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He's very knowledgeable about literature. And precisely because he's not allowed to enjoy public life, you know, he's not allowed to go and follow in the footsteps of Germanicus and lead expeditions into Germany. So that gives him the chance to spend, or I guess if you're a Roman aristocrat, waste his time on scholarly pursuits.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the mark, I guess, of how much he wastes his time, of how contemptible a figure he is by the standards of the Roman aristocracy, is that actually he becomes a historian. So he's a total loser.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Thank goodness there are none of those left anymore, Tom. Well, and Dominic, the other possible point of comparison with historians that certainly I know is that he writes enormously long books. No way. So his editor says, so here's a commission to write a history of the Etruscans. Could you keep it down to two books? And he writes 20 books. No way.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And he gets commissioned to write History of Carthage, make it one book, eight books.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
With chapters on snooker. And do you know, Claudius would have loved all that because he writes a book about dice. He's interested in pretty much everything.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He is a contemporary. He writes about things within living memory. Yes, he does, which is very foolish of him. or brave. And I think this may be one of the reasons why his mother and grandmother think that he's an idiot, because he writes a history of Rome from the assassination of Caesar.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And Suetonius says he was regularly criticised by his mother and grandmother for covering the events that followed the murder of Caesar. And so because he felt unable to write about them frankly or truthfully, skipped to the subsequent period of peace which followed the civil wars.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So obviously the story of how Augustus comes to power, there's a lot of murder, there's a lot of killing, there's a lot of bloodshed. And basically, Livia is saying to him, you know, just don't go there. We have drawn a veil over all of that. And here you are trying to... Yeah, that's mad from Claudius. Just don't do it. Just don't do it.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
But he does write it. And he actually, you know, he gets to give a public reading. So it's like he gets invited to a, you know, a literature festival or something. And he... He starts reading it. Then just as he started reading, I'll quote again, quote Suetonius, a great gust of laughter swept the audience when a bench broke under the weight of an enormously fat man.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And even after everybody else had calmed down, Claudia's found it impossible to put the incident from his mind and would periodically collapse into fits of giggles.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yes, I do. Yes, outside of the home of a New Zealand farmer who had just been showing us around a cave complex with glow worms. And it had been in the family for 150 years. That was literally the best thing that's ever happened to Theo, watching Dom break that bench. Anyway, let's move on.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So Claudius, he leads this kind of essentially inoffensive life of a scholar, except watching people break benches and he has to be told off about writing on sensitive subjects. But he doesn't get into trouble. There's no kind of risk to him or anything.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
But then in 37, Caligula, who is, of course, Claudius's nephew, and I'm aware for listeners that it is quite complicated keeping all these relations in the head, but Claudius is Caligula's uncle. So Caligula comes to power and by this stage, Claudius is in his late 40s. And... Caligula's accession is both good and bad news for Claudius.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So it's good news because Caligula doesn't really respect the Senate. And so he doesn't mind having Claudius enter it. So he appoints Claudius to be his co-consul when he comes to power. And so at last Claudius has become a senator. And in due course, later in Caligula's reign, he gets a second consulship.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And when Caligula is absent, Claudius presides over kind of public entertainments, public games.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yes, I think that's right. And I think that Caligula finds it funny to have Claudius in the Senate and also on hand because then he can bully him. So there are lots of stories that, again, have the kind of the smack of truth that Caligula will invite Claudius to a dinner party. Claudius is quite old. He's also very, very fond of a drink. And so he's very prone to kind of falling asleep.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And when he does, all the other, either Caligula and the lads will pelt him with olive stones and bread rolls and that kind of thing. Right. Flashman style. And there's also this great gag, which Suetonius reports, that people will put slippers on his hands and then abruptly wake him so that he'll wake with a jolt, rub his eyes and find slippers. I actually find that genuinely funny.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Is that the kind of jeep you got up to in the dawns? Yeah, I genuinely think that. I'd love to see that. Well, so Zotanius writes, and this is my translation, very influenced, obviously, by the experience of being on The Restless History, just for the banter was the excuse.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Well, it's not as much as... It's not... banter on the level of Caligula's court. I think that's safe to say. There is one moment where Claudius might be in serious danger, which is people may remember that there's been this conspiracy against Caligula. He's gone to Germany. He's gone to Gaul. He's coming back to Rome and he tells the Senate, I hate you.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the person he says this to is a delegation of senators led by Claudius. And And Caligula is furious that Claudius has come. And he basically says, you know, you think that you're playing the role of a tutor, disciplining me like I'm a kind of naughty boy or something. And so Caligula's response to this, it is said, is to pick Claudius up and throw him into the Rhone.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So the meeting takes place in Lyon, fully clothed. So that's not looking good for Claudius. And there are also, it is said, kind of portents that, that seem to prophesy the golden future that Claudius can look forward to.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So that very first time when he becomes consul and he walks out into the forum and he has all his lictors with the rods and axes on their shoulders, the markers of Claudius' status, it is said that an eagle descends and lands on his shoulder. It is said that. That's doing a lot of work. But the fact this story is told... Is worrying for Claudius. Is worrying for Claudius.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So is it possible that Claudius could become emperor? I mean, you know, the big problem is he's not descended from Augustus and everyone thinks he's an idiot. But it's still a risk if people are even contemplating the possibility that he might be, you know, a...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
capable of becoming the emperor, that Caligula will then have him killed because the evidence suggests that's what happens to people who are in the line of descent. In the event, of course, Caligula is murdered. The Praetorian finds him hiding behind a curtain. They take him to the camp and Claudius becomes emperor.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the whole way through this, you know, this two day sequence of events, Claudius is saying, I don't want to be emperor. It's mad. I'm wholly unsuited to it. People will remember that passage that you read. Suetonius ends by saying he is the first of the Caesars to win the loyalty of the military by paying them a bribe. Now, that's not true.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I mean, Augustus, Tiberius, they'd all recognize what their security depended on. But with Claudius, it's very, very overt. The amount of money he gives is obscene. and it's paid when he's in their camp, and it enables him to become emperor.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I mean, we'll never know because we don't have the sources. But I think when you weigh them up, I think you'd have to say that's very, very probable. Right. Because otherwise, I mean, the sequence of events has the faint kind of quality of a, you know, a kind of myth or something. Yeah, exactly. They find him behind a curtain. Behind a curtain, yeah. You know, they... They know to find him.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
They know to take him to the camp. And Claudius knows, you know, he's got the money ready to pay the cash. He's got the cash ready to pay them.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So I think it's pretty likely that that he was involved. And of course, you know, the fact that he's come to power in that way, protesting that he doesn't want to be part of it, disguises the fact that what has happened is basically a coup. It is a coup, plain and simple. It's the first coup really since Augustus came to power. There's not been a kind of peaceful handover of power.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the consequences of that, the consequence of how he comes to power and the fact that he's neither a blood nor an adoptive descendant of Augustus will crucially shape the course of his rule and its character. So Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, they had ruled as a princeps, as a first man, as a first citizen.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Even Caligula, who had despised the notion that Rome might have any republican traditions. Nevertheless, I mean, that was officially the role that he was playing. But the thing is that what Caligula had kind of drawn attention to, the brute underpinnings of the imperial system, the fact that it's dependent on military power.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
There is another aspect to it, which is that if that's the case, if it is a monarchy, a military monarchy, then it's becoming an institution. It's something that you can inherit not just the title, but an entire way of administering and governing the empire. And
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
It's Claudius, because he doesn't have this family link, because when he gets the name of Caesar, it has to be voted to him by the Senate. It's not his by right. What that does is to reveal to people that this is now something that you can inherit in the form of an institution. And Claudius' ability to make that work, to make...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
the imperial institution, the imperial office work as an institution will be absolutely fundamental to the question of whether he will be a success and ultimately whether the autocracy will be a success and whether Rome itself will endure and prosper. So high stakes.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Dominic, what do you find useful about Nord?
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
One of my green flags is if I meet someone who loves John Lennon, I know we're going to be great friends.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yeah. He does. He's very proactive. He's full of ideas. He's willing to experiment. And I think you get the sense of a man who has profited from his study of history and from his ringside view of the court of the Caesars. I think he's been sitting there and thinking, well, you know, this is what I do. This is what I try. And he puts these various plans into action.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And I think he's a pretty good emperor. And because he's grown up in the court of Augustus, And because he studied the reign of Augustus in the context of what had gone before, the kind of the Republican traditions, I think he is alert to a degree that his predecessors hadn't really thought through
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Just how cleverly Augustus had fused these kind of rival traditions that we've been talking about, the kind of the elite traditionalist approach and the kind of populist approach. And Augustus had been brilliant at playing to both galleries, wearing kind of both masks. He had attempted to appeal to the Senate, as Tiberius had done, and to the people, as Caligula had done.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So Claudius, his aim is to try and repeat that trick to try and get both the Senate and the people on board. Now, in doing that, he faces an obvious problem, which is that he lacks the prestige of Augustus. He doesn't have the background. He doesn't have the range of achievements. And of course, everyone thinks he's an idiot, which is a kind of ongoing problem.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
challenge and on top of that there's also the fact that there are lots of senators who who just really resent him being emperor partly because lots of them had wanted to restore the republic and partly also because there were lots in the senate who think that they could be a much better emperor than this guy who kind of dribbles and shakes and you know blows snot
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so behind his back, they're constantly mocking him. And Claudius is well aware of this. But of course, you know, Claudius has been mocked all his life. And here he is, he's emperor.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So Claudius is, I mean, you know, he rules for almost 14 years. And... despite the fact that there are kind of repeated displays of resentment and contempt from the Senate. And in fact, even as we'll see the occasional conspiracy, he shrugs it all aside. Now, it's true that he is a kind of he's a bit paranoid.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So he's the first emperor to to institute friskings of people who are brought into his private presence. And when he first enters the Senate House, it's a month after he's come to power, he does so accompanied by guards. And that's a reminder of the fact that, just as Caligula had done, he's identified what the real source of his power within the capital is. And he is unembarrassed about this.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So he mints various coins that kind of flatter the Praetorians. So there's one that's stamped with an image of their camp. There's another that shows Claudius shaking hands with the Praetorian standard bearer. Of course, he's given them massive donatives. He also gives massive donatives and pay rises to the legions. And
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
You know, senators can laugh at him all they like, but it's Claudius who's in charge of the legions. So ultimately that is the bedrock of his rule. And I think it's fair to say that even though they may feel resentful, even though they may kind of despise him, obviously he's not Caligula.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so it is very hard for any senator not to feel a certain measure of relief that they've got someone who isn't going to try and get off with their wives or, you know, all the other things that he was getting up to. And Claudius, of course, is, you know, he's a historian. So he understands the role the senators played in Roman history. He respects it. He basically kind of shares their values.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He's an aristocrat, you know, and more than that, he's a Claudian. And so he knows the rules. He knows how to dress. He knows how to speak. He knows how to act the part of a traditional Republican Roman aristocrat. And we've talked the whole way through how being a successful emperor really is. is as much as anything about working out what role you're going to play and then playing it well.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And if you lack the charisma and the self-confidence to play a part that will be appealing to people who it's important to influence, then you're not going to be basically a good politician. Right. And on that level... Claudius is a good politician. Now, of course, you know, he has this limp. He has his infirmities. But when he sits down or when he just kind of stands still, he looks impressive.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And Suetonius clearly recognizes that this is important. So he says, especially while lying down, he did not fail to give an impression of majesty and dignity. He looks good. He looks impressive.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Exactly. And more than that, that this is what a Claudian and a Caesar, so the Julians, these two great families who've been conjoined in the house of Augustus, that that's what their ancestors did. They went out and they conquered people. It's what Julius Caesar had done. It's what various Claudian generals had done. And so Claudius is saying, I am their heir. And
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Again, as you say, he doesn't actually lead it himself. But once Britain has, you know, the bridgehead has been established and Colchester is on the verge of falling, Claudius goes over and he does it with elephants to create as big a splash as possible. And then when he comes back, he reenacts it.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So he presides over kind of various reenactments on the campus marshes, showing highlights from the campaign in Britain, you know, cultures are being stormed, various British kings surrendering. And across the Mediterranean, he has himself portrayed as a kind of
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
buff rapist he so there's this freeze from aphrodisiac in what's now turkey which shows him which shows britannia as a woman whose robes have been torn from her and claudius as this kind of muscle-bound guy who's forcing her to the ground and And obviously, that's not how a politician today would want to be represented. But that's how, you know, it plays well with Roman audiences.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And it's clearly how Claudius wanted to be seen. He's, you know, he's no longer the kind of elderly, stammering, twitching historian. He's a man of action who subdues provinces, subdues women. And... He's a Caesar.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So he's very into hydrology. Another thing he'd written a book about, he'd written a book about canals in Mesopotamia. God, that's fascinating. Yeah, except, you know, Grand Projet, again, I mean, Caesar had been into that, Augustus had been into that, and the Claudians definitely had been into that.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So one of his most famous ancestors, Appius Claudius, had built the Appian Way, the great road that joins Rome to the kind of the heel of Italy. And Claudius seems to be genuinely enthusiastic about taking up that battle of improving infrastructure in Rome. So... The obvious thing that every emperor has to worry about is the grain supply.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And historically, it's been a problem that Rome does not have a deep sea port. So at the mouth of the Tiber, this is Port Ostia, which I know, Dominic, you're a big fan of. Brilliant. Yeah, you love it, don't you?
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Okay. Well, Claudius would be thrilled to hear that because he decides that he's going to build a massive deep sea port at the mouth of the Tiber. And when he summons engineers and tells them this is what he's going to do, they throw up their hands in horror and say, you know, on no account attempt this, it'll be a disaster. It'll be a kind of HS2 fiasco. But... Claudius is Caesar.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He can do what he likes. And if it serves the good of the Roman people to remould the land, to gouge out the bottom of the sea, then that's what he's going to do. And so he goes ahead. He also, he's a great man for an aqueduct. He builds two enormous aqueducts. And one of them, the Aqua Claudia, is probably the greatest of all Rome's aqueducts. And
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
What's fascinating about them is that they, like Claudius, are simultaneously very modern and very ancient. So they're kind of cutting edge engineering, but they have the cladding of a kind of old school aqueduct. And I think that's a beautiful summation of what Claudius is about. Efficiency, modernity, but dress it up to look old. I mean, that's basically what I'd like as well.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I have to say, I'd be all in favour of that. And these are recognised by contemporaries as being astonishing achievements. So Pliny the Elder, he writes that they are wonders without rival in the world. And so obviously this redounds, again, greatly to Claudius's credit, makes him very, very popular with the people who look to Caesar to keep them watered, to keep them fed.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
What happens next? Yeah, well, it's the pressing question. What happens next? Is there an eligible Caesar to hand? Or, as you were implying, might it be time to turn the clock back, to go back to the Republican system of government? And what makes that question even more pressing is the fact that, as we've been saying throughout this series, the autocracy of the Caesars is not...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And it's also popular because it gives them jobs. So it's not slaves who are doing the work. It's the mass of the people. And it's a kind of Keynesian scheme, I guess you could say. Yeah, putting money into the economy. Very good.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He absolutely would. Yes, he absolutely would. So as I said, he writes a book on gambling, which is seen as being a very de classe occupation. He enjoys the pleasures of the masses. And in fact, he's so keen on gladiatorial combat that... Suetonius writes that he is shockingly obsessed by executions, which in a kind of a day of spectacles in an amphitheater, the climax would be gladiators.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Then before that, you'd have the wild beasts. And before that, you would have the executions. And the executions, it's kind of, you know, you've got to be an obsessive fan to go and watch them. And Claudius is a kind of, you know, he does like to go and watch them. So it's like going to see a famous band or something and going to see the warm-up act. The warm-up act.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So going to the Olympics and going to watch some terrible sport that you know interests him. Yeah, exactly. It's unsurprising that a lot of the shows that he puts on are very, very famous. And in fact, one of them gives rise to perhaps one of the most famous sayings from the whole of Roman history. He's trying to drain this lake in the countryside above Rome.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And to mark the final completion of this project before the canal is open that will drain the lake, he has a great sea battle staged there. And all the gladiators who've been assembled onto the boats to stage this turn to Claudius. where he's looking very kind of splendid, you know, he's sat down looking tremendously imperious, and they say, Hail Caesar, we who are about to die salute you.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And that's where this is from? That is where that phrase has come from. Although it's very, very Claudius that he then totally messes it up. So when they say, we're about to die salute you, he replies, or not, because, you know, maybe some of them will... Won't die. I mean, it's kind of very Don-ish, very waspish humour. Or not. And so all the gladiators hear him say that.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so they think, brilliant, he's pardoning us. We don't have to fight. And so they kind of put down their weapons and refuse to fight. And Claudius is so outraged by this that he gets up out of his throne and hurries down to yell at them and tell them to get a move on. And of course, when he does that, he hobbles and limps. And the impression of majesty and splendour is compromised. Yeah.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
However, he does manage to persuade the guys, the gladiators, to pick up their weapons. And so the fight goes ahead. That's good news for the crowd. Good news for the crowd. Absolutely. Maybe less good news for the gladiators. Now, there is, of course, a problem with this, which is that it's very expensive.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And that is compounded by the fact that Claudius' predecessor, Caligula, had also been very keen on lavishing money on extravaganzas. So the treasury is pretty bare financially. But Claudius is very proactive. And again, I think he's clearly thought about what he's going to do. And he wants to set the administration of the household of Caesar
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
on as firm a footing as he can because he recognizes that that administration is also effectively the administration of the entire empire. So until Claudius, the fact that Caesar needs money because the money that he has is basically the income that keeps the empire running had been disguised or at least hadn't properly been acknowledged.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
But Claudius, perhaps because of the circumstances in which he's come to power, he's more like... a military strongman who's come to power in a coup than a kind of hereditary monarch. He's kind of unabashed about the need to make his administration as streamlined and efficient as possible.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so the people he turns to for that are the people that any wealthy Roman who needs specialists would turn to. And these are people who are slaves or freedmen. because as Caesar, he has the pick of the ablest, smartest people, Greeks with particular specialisms in various fields of finance or whatever.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
formally a hereditary monarchy. In fact, formally, it's not a monarchy at all. And so there are no rules governing the succession. That said, it has come to be accepted that the emperor should be a Caesar. So that means an heir either by adoption, as was the case with Tiberius, or by bloodline, as was the case with Caligula, of the deified Augustus, the first of the emperors and who is now a god.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so these freedmen are basically entrusted by Claudius with the running of the empire, and they prove to be very, very effective at it.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And, of course, it also plays into the stereotype of Claudius as a foolish old man who is easily manipulated and dominated by people who properly... should be kept firmly under thumb, of whom slaves and freedmen would be the paradigm.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So under the thumb as he was of these men, so that's the freedmen, the favourites, he played the part not of a princeps, but of a flunky, dispensing magistracies here and military commands there, pardoning and punishing people, largely oblivious to how much he was the creature of this or that favourite's interests.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So this is a crucial part of the image of Claudius, that he's an idiot who essentially is so feeble minded that he's become the plaything of his favourites. Now, we know that's not true because in Egypt we found, when I say we, I mean scholars, archaeologists have found documentary evidence for the close attention that Claudius plays to the administration of his empire.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
and the evident intelligence with which he corresponds to people in provinces across the span of the Roman world. He's a very smart, able guy. And actually, the fact he has all these freedmen serving him, this isn't evidence of his senility or imbecility. It's evidence of his astute ability to marshal innovation. Right.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
But part of what makes his contemporaries and posterity assume that Claudius is feeble minded is that there's a sense that he's under the thumb, not just of freedmen, but also even worse of women themselves. and particularly of a succession of wives of whom perhaps the most notorious is a woman called Messalina.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I think it's the blue-blooded that matters.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And that is a crucial role that she plays. And it gives her a certain degree of independent power. Because everyone, I mean, Claudius knows and everyone else knows that being married to Messalina, who is the great-grandniece of Augustus, you know, this is a crucial buttressing of his status and prestige.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And her significance and her kind of independence of operation is enhanced by the fact that in AD 41, she gives him crucially a male heir. So he now has a son who can inherit this, you know, his role in the House of Caesar. With a great name. Right. So two years later, Claudius presides over the conquest of Britain. And so this little boy gets given the name of Britannicus.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And Messalina's role in this, you know, crucial. And so she has basically made herself fundamental, not just to the status of Claudius's regime as it exists in the present. but its prospects in the future. Basically, it's kind of its perpetuation. And so it's unsurprising that she is portrayed in statues as the very model of a sober, respectable Roman matron.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And she's praised as the absolute model of Roman womanhood. But Dominic, Dear listeners, here's the question. Is she the model of Roman womanhood or is she an outrageous strumpet?
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yeah, well, she's having an affair with this very good-looking young senator who's also very ambitious. And the story is that they're conspiring to replace Claudius as emperor. And in fact, that Messalina has married this guy. Yeah. And... you know, she's the great-grandniece of Augustus and she's the mother of Britannicus.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So this is potentially, you know, if it's true, very, very dangerous for Claudius. And the measure of his alarm is that he goes speeding back to Rome and he doesn't go to the Palatine, but he goes to the Praetorian camp because he's got to, clearly he's worried, you know, he needs to make sure that that's secure because only if that's secure can he then take measures to deal with this threat.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So the question then is, well, you know, what are the options? Who is there on hand? And I suppose the obvious question, which we didn't touch on in our episode on Caligula, is has he left any children? And although he's only 28 when he gets murdered, he hasn't stinted when it comes to having wives. I mean, he's burned through a lot of them.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And his worry must have been that, you know, Messalina and her toy boy might have suborned the Praetorians. I mean, in the event they haven't, which perhaps suggests that the story has been slightly overblown, but we'll come to that in a minute. But anyway, Claudius is in a position to send the Praetorians out and suppress the coup, which they do.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So all the various conspirators are arrested and executed.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
messalina has vanished it turns out that she's gone to uh find to find her mother which is oh you know in her moment of crisis she wants mummy and they are um kind of closeted together in in one of their kind of beautiful gardens that all the aristocracy in rome have and she's cornered there run through by the praetorians and dumped at the feet of her mother and that is the end of messalina
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And so the question is, well, what is going on here? Now, I think it's evident from contemporaneous sources that Messalina is a very proficient player in power politics, that she's very ruthless in getting rid of potential rivals or anyone who seems to threaten her position, that she's very ambitious, certainly, certainly ambitious for her son. And I mean, maybe she's been cheating on Claudius.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Can't be sure. But, you know, was she really conspiring against him?
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Is that possible? Definitely. That concubine who goes to see Claudius at Ostia, she is prompted by one of Claudius's most powerful freedmen. And they are lurking in the background of this whole episode.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So it is, I think, likelier that Messalina is destroyed in a kind of faction fight between her supporters and kind of overmighty freedmen than that she really was kind of getting up to kind of all kinds of sexual shenanigans.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I mean, that kind of... I mean, I think from the point of view of Roman history, this is a key moment because, you know, this is a huge event. There are clearly all kinds of political interests at stake, but we just don't know what the truth is. And it points to the way in which...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
rivalries that for centuries and centuries have been played out on the floor of the Senate House are now being conducted in side rooms and passageways and bedrooms in the Palatine. And it means that certainty is is impossible, and the lack of certainty in turn breeds scandalous gossip.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yes. So Rome's most experienced and seasoned whore. And they go head to head, it is said, as it were. Right. And Messalina wins. That obviously didn't happen. No, it obviously didn't happen. And also what obviously didn't happen is what Juvenal claims in his poems. He's a satirist writing. maybe half a century or so after Messalina's death.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And he describes her as kind of nostalgie de la boue, going off and working incognita in a low-rent brothel. And Juvenal says that she gilds her nipples and wears a blonde wig over her hair and kind of lies in this dirty, dirty room where plebeians come and have their way with her. And this is clearly not true, but it suggests the kind of
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And his last wife is the one that actually seems to have been his great love. And she's a woman called Melonia Sisonia. And she isn't particularly young. She's not particularly attractive. But she does seem to have appealed to something very deep in Caligula. Who knows? Well, actually, I think we can have a fairly good idea what it is. They both seem to have certainly had a taste for dressing up.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
titillation that these faction fights in the Palatine are now capable of generating. And of course, it's very bad for Messalina's posthumous reputation, but it's also terrible for Claudius's posthumous reputation. And in fact, his reputation when he's still alive, because it leaves him with a double problem. It leaves him looking kind of weak, cuckolded, deluded.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And that plays into all the stories that are being told about him as the kind of the plaything of his freedmen. But it's also deprived him of a kind of crucial buttress upholding his regime because he no longer has a marital link to the bloodline of Augustus. And he clearly feels that this is so important that he is prepared to offend some of the most sacred laws of Rome to deal with the problem.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Because there is... a suitable candidate on hand. There is a woman who, you know, she's not just a great granny, she's a great granddaughter of Augustus. And this is one of the two surviving sisters of Caligula. The pair of them, people may remember, had been exiled to prison island by their brother. And when Claudius came to power, he'd allowed them to return.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And he'd become very close to one of them, a woman called Agrippina. So like her mother, confusingly. So she's called Agrippina the Younger by historians. And she's very beautiful, very smart. Claudius thinks she's great. But I think unless his need had been what it was, he would not have passed the law and revoking the taboo against an uncle marrying his niece.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And he says, no, this is absolutely legitimate. And he goes ahead and he marries Agrippina. And Suetonius says, as he was getting ready to marry Agrippina in defiance of all morality, he kept describing her in every speech he gave as his daughter, his ward, born and raised in his loving embrace. So it's very creepy. But more than that, it's evidence of his desperation. Still,
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
even though he's now about a decade into his reign, the sense of insecurity, the anxiety that he's not a real Caesar and he needs a wife who will make him feel a real Caesar.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
age gap and she already has a son of her own who is much older than Britannicus right yeah four or five years older um which when you're 12 as Agrippina's son is I mean that's quite a an age gap yeah and this is a young lad called Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus after his father and he of course has two advantages over Britannicus so one of them we've just mentioned the fact that he's older
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And, you know, when you're in your teens, being four or five years older is a considerable advantage. And the other thing, of course, is that he's a direct descendant of Augustus. And there's a third advantage, which is that Agrippina is really, really ambitious to see him rather than Britannicus on the throne. And she presses Claudius to adopt this young lad.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And sure enough, on the 25th of February 50, so very shortly after his marriage to Agrippina, Claudius adopts the young Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. And the boy formally becomes Claudius's eldest son. And as a marker of this, he takes on a new name. And this new name is Nero Claudius Caesar or Claudius. As we know him, Nero.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And I think that even if the name of Nero didn't cast the shadow that it does. I think just listening to that set up, you know, it has the quality of a kind of folk tale. And you can see, you know, it's kind of Cinderella story, the befuddled father, you know, obsessing over a new wife, the child who gets abandoned. All these kind of elements are there. And sure enough, obviously,
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
On 13th October 54, so Claudius has been in power by this point just under 14 years, an announcement is released from the Palatine to the Roman people. And this announcement is that Claudius is dead. And shortly afterwards, Nero, who by this point is 16 years old, he comes out from the Palatine. He's hailed by a Praetorian escort as Caesar. He's placed in a litter.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
bit like, well, to a degree. So when he goes riding off to see soldiers or whatever, he dresses her up in a military outfit as well. So she clearly enjoys that. But he also gets her to pose nude for friends. So to that extent, she's not like Lucy Worsley. But she's clearly, she's a fun girl. She gels well with Caligula's inimitable, madcap sense of humour. She's zany. She's a zany funster.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And as Claudius had been some 14 years previously, he is taken to the Praetorian camp. So Agrippina and Nero likewise have recognized that this is the key to seizing power of the capital. Within a year, Britannicus is dead, supposedly of a seizure. But of course, everyone assumes that Nero has had him poisoned. Agrippina herself dies in 59. She is definitely murdered by Nero.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I mean, Nero makes no bones about that. And Nero himself, of course, dies in 68. As we heard in the details of how he died, we heard in the very opening reading of this series. And with him dies Augustus's bloodline. That's it. There are no more heirs of Augustus.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Well, so I think when Suetonius is the first to report something, That's when you need to be on your guard. That's suspicious. Suetonius is not the first to report that Claudius was murdered with a dish of poisoned mushrooms. So Pliny the Elder mentions it. But, I mean, having said that, we don't know. I mean, maybe he dies of natural causes. I mean, he'd been sickly all his life.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He's had a good innings. You know, he's 63 when he finally pops his clogs. And there's Josiah Osgood, who's written a brilliant book on Claudius, Claudius Caesar. In that, he points out that there had been a lot of plague in Rome at the time. He points to evidence from Tacitus of people, large number of high-ranking people who died. So that suggests that there's quite a lot of sickness around.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the honest truth is that we can't know. And I guess that, I mean, you would say as a historian who has, you know, I mean, think of all the episodes we did on 1968 or Kennedy or whatever. I mean, it's so much material that this is a cause of frustration. But I think it's also, it breeds what to me is part of the fascination of this period and of Suetonius' biographies, which is the way that
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Recorded fact and myth kind of blur into one another. And sometimes you can distinguish the lineaments of history and other times you see the lineaments of mythology. And trying to make sense of that, for me, is what makes this whole story so fascinating. You know, we talked about it. This is the ultimate dynastic story. It's why I, Claudius...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
as a novel, but even more as a TV drama, kind of lies at the head of all these great dynastic epics that we've had on TV over the past decades. And the fact that Suetonius' account has this kind of mythic folkloric quality, as well as kind of quoting letters and citing laws and things, I think is a crucial part of that.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
I was just thinking about the, you know, when I was thinking about the death of Claudius and, you know, was he murdered, was he not? And then, of course, thinking about that series we did on Kennedy and kind of yearning for the equivalent of a Warren report or something.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
You know, all the kind of the whole range of pieces of evidence that you could bring to bear and thinking how frustrating it is we don't have that. But, of course, Kennedy is a myth, isn't he? Right.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And she has given him one child, but unfortunately, for fans of the bloodline of Caligula, that child is a daughter. And Caligula has named her after his beloved sister who died and whom he deified in his grief. So he calls her Julia Drusilla.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So this, again, I think is one of the, I mean, very funny... bit from Suetonius. So this is Caligula talking about Drusilla. There existed no surer evidence that she was indeed his child, he believed, than her temper, which was so violent. Whenever she played with other little children, she would scratch at their faces and jab at their eyes with her fingers. So daddy watches on.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Oh, chip off the old block. So what happens to them? Well, according to Suetonius, they get murdered along with Caligula. He says that they've been accompanying him when they run into the Praetorians. But Josephus, the great Judean historian who has very precise information about what happens, he reports that they weren't with him.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
But when the news came that he'd been murdered, they come and seek out the body of their husband's great father. And they find him and they kind of lie prostrated with grief, mourning him. And this is where they are found by a Praetorian who has been sent to dispatch them. And Sisonia looks up at the soldier and she's, you know, sobbing and she says, finish the last act of the drama.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So again, this idea that everyone in the House of Caesar is an actor on a stage. And the Praetorian duly does as he's told. He slits Sisonia's throat and he picks up little Drusilla and he smashes out her brains on the side of a wall. So that's the end of them. So they have gone. And there are no male descendants of Augustus at all, full stop.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And there's no male candidate with the blood of Augustus in their veins to succeed Caligula. And so it's not surprising that there are many in the Senate who do think, well, this might be the time to bring back the Republic to kind of wake up from this terrible nightmare that we've been living through. And so that evening...
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
The soldiers come, the guards come, and they say to the consuls who've taken control of the city now that Caligula's gone, and they say, what's the watchword? And they say, liberty. So it's all very noble and upstanding. And the next day they have a kind of very grandiose, florid debate on the need to restore the Republic.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Words like liberty and various other abstractions are bandied around with great abandon. But while they are having this debate, they are forgetting the fact that there are other players in this crisis.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
One group of which, of course, is the Praetorians, the imperial guard, some of whom had been prompted to murder Caligula, but who absolutely do not want to see the overthrow of the monarchy because they depend on it for their status and their income. So obviously they don't want a republic. There'd be no role for them.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And the other kind of player in the drama, of course, is the people, the mass of the Roman people, who likewise mourn Caligula. They're very upset that he's gone. And they too want a Caesar because it is Caesar who keeps them fed above all. It's Caesar who organises the grain supply. And it's Caesar who keeps the masses entertained, who provides the gladiatorial shows and so on.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So they likewise don't really want a republic.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
We'll discuss in due course, I think, whether it's just luck or whether it's perhaps something slightly more organized. But yes, you're right. They find Claudius. Claudius is a part of the August family. He's quite old by this point. He's born in 10 BC. So Caligula's murdered in 41. So he's into his 50s. Yeah.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And people may be wondering, well, I mean, if he's in his 50s, he's a member of the August family. Why hasn't he become emperor before? Why isn't he the obvious candidate? And I suppose, you know, why hasn't Caligula killed him if he's an alternative emperor?
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yeah, this really, really matters. So who is Claudius? So to answer that, we need to go back to the scandalous marriage that Augustus had with this woman called Livia. So Livia is a Claudian. She had previously been married to another Claudian. She'd had a baby boy, Tiberius. She's then pregnant by her first husband when Augustus decides he really wants her and marries her.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He's in a position to obviously impose his will. So Livia is massively pregnant when she marries Augustus. And shortly afterwards, she gives birth to a second son who is called Drusus. And Drusus, like Tiberius, is a tremendous war hero. He's entrusted by Augustus with assorted German campaigns.
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He invades so far east that he reaches the line of the Elbe, where he sees the ghostly apparition of a huge woman telling him to turn back. But he's very dashing, very heroic. And then he dies young, which of course confirms his kind of reputation in the hearts of the Roman people. And it's all kind of very... you know, early years of Rome in a story by Livy.
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Tiberius escorts the corpse of his brother back to Rome on foot, weeping the whole way. Very, very kind of heroic tableau. So Drusus is much admired, much loved. And fortunately, he has given the Roman people another war hero because Drusus is the father of Germanicus, who we talked about in the previous episode, the father of Caligula.
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Very dashing, perfect in every way apart from his spindly legs. Absolute war hero again. And everyone loves him. However, Germanicus is not Drusus' only son. So he has a second son. And this is Claudius. And Claudius, as we said, is born in 10 BC, the 1st of August, at Lugdunum, which is Lyon in Gaul, the great cult centre for the Augustan cult in Gaul. And Claudius is born.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Drusus dies the following year in 9 BC. And so the infant Claudius is raised by his mother, Antonia, who is the daughter of Mark Antony.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Yeah, and that wouldn't be an absolutely hopeless problem because Tiberius wasn't, but he gets adopted. And in the Roman system, if you get adopted, then you do become the son. I mean, there's no, you know, I mean, as good as being a kind of blood son. So it would have been possible for Augustus or Tiberius at some point to have adopted Claudius, but they don't. And why do they not?
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Well, the words of Suetonius. For almost the entire length of his childhood and adolescence, he suffered from a range of chronic illnesses. These left him so impaired, both mentally and physically, that even once he had come of age, he was regarded as unfitted for either public or private duties. Right. And what are these illnesses? Well, so Suetonius goes on to list them.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
He has weak knees, which gives him a kind of hobbling, almost kind of limping gait. His laughter, Suetonius says, is an unbecoming bray. It's a bit like Kamala Harris.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
Okay. Well, Suetonius says it was a bray. So obviously it was because Suetonius is never wrong.
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537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And apparently Claudius gets angry quite a lot. So there's quite a lot of snot flying around the Palatine. Yeah. So clearly he suffers from various ailments and disadvantages. And people might be wondering, well, do his grandmother, Livia, and his mother, Antonia, show him sympathy and compassion? Or are they monstrously ableist? And I'm afraid to say that they are monstrously ableist.
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
So Livia is so mortified by having this grandson who kind of twitches and limps and blows snot everywhere that she can barely bring herself to talk to him and generally communicates with him by kind of sending him written missives.
The Rest Is History
537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)
And to quote Suetonius, his mother, Antonia, used to describe him as a monstrosity of a human being begun by nature, but only half finished and would accuse anyone whose stupidity she particularly wished to emphasize of being a bigger fool than her son, Claudius.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Beautifully played. And on that evening in Vienna when it was premiered, the piano was played by Beethoven itself. And Dominic, we've talked a lot about Vienna over the course of this evening. Shall we just focus in and describe the Capitol?
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I'm used to it. You deserved it after that singing.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Who was a patron of Mozart's. And they went on a kind of lads' trip to Berlin, and then they kind of had a massive spat over money. They did indeed. As Mozart tended to do, by this point.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Oh, it's like us, isn't it?
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Like our series on General Custer.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Exactly.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so does this mean that Beethoven is on the side of the revolution? That's what I had always assumed, but I know your ways.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
It is. It always is.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Speak softly!
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
We'll be right back.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Haltet euch zurück!
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Haltet euch zurück!
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Haltet euch zurück!
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
It absolutely did. And that's because every piece of music you've heard during this podcast has been performed live by the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is one of the most recorded orchestras of all time, giving more than 80 concerts a year across the world, including a stunning series in London at the historic Church of St. Martin-in-the-Fields. The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is offering an exclusive complimentary Friends membership to all listeners of The Rest Is History.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
You can attend open rehearsals, enjoy pre-concert talks and meet and greets with soloists, access exclusive digital downloads, and crucially, receive 25% off tickets to their London concerts. To claim your complimentary Friends membership and explore all these incredible opportunities, just go to asmf.org forward slash history. So don't miss out.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Visit asmf.org forward slash history and sign up today. That is a passage of music that historians have always been fascinated by because it's conventionally seen as providing the kind of the soundtrack to an age of revolution, isn't it? And just for those not familiar with the opera, to give a bit of context, it's set in Spain in the 16th century in a prison.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And what you've just heard is prisoners emerging from their cells, coming blinking into the sunlight, singing of the delight they feel at their liberation. And so it's always kind of associated with the fall of the Bastille, the overthrowing of monarchical despotism. But Dominic, I mean, as I said, I am familiar with your methods and I kind of have a hunch.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
that you're going to tell me it's more complicated than that.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
We know all about that, don't we? Because Theo, our beloved producer, is, of course, well, purports to be French.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
They are fans. And that word is coming from fanatics, isn't it? They're fanatics. Fanatics for Beethoven.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So a sad, I would say a tragic moment. And to mark it, let's now hear perhaps the most celebrated thunderstorm in the entire history of classical music. And it comes from the Sixth Symphony, the Pastoral. And we are going to hear the fourth movement, which gives us a thunderstorm. And then right at the end, the hint of a rainbow.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Thank you.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So, Dominic, we began this half with the funeral of Beethoven, and lo and behold, we've come full circle. Exactly, Tom.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I'll be honest, it sounds like an American steak restaurant rather than a great writer. It doesn't encourage me to want to read it, I have to say.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Brilliant, Dominic, thank you. And we have some ovations of our own to give. An ovation to the Royal Albert Hall for hosting us, to the Academy of St Martin in the Fields, wonderful, wonderful orchestra, to the Philharmonia Chorus, its chorus master, Gavin Carr, to our wonderful soloists, Nardus Williams, Katie Stevenson, Andrew Staples, William Thomas, Mishka, Rushdie, Moeman.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But I think, above all, we owe a debt of thanks to the great guiding spirit behind this entire evening, the man whose idea it was, the wonderful Oliver Zeffman.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
We'll be right back.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
so so
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
CHOIR SINGS
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I'll never walk again.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Thank you for listening. We will be back next week without musical accompaniment. And the series coming out next Monday will be on the Nazis' road to war. Goodbye.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Please welcome back to the stage Tom Holland and Dominik Sandberg. Welcome back, everybody. Always start the second half with a banger, they say. And that, of course, was the banger to end all bangers. The first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony premiered in December 1808 in Vienna.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And Dominic, the opening of that movement must be the most famous opening to any piece of music ever written, I'd have thought.
The Rest Is History
527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So, we have had Mozart, and the second half is about a very different character, someone who is brooding, unfriendly, difficult, and... And here he is... ..to talk about Ludwig van Beethoven. Dominic, take it away. Uh...
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Did it?
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And I think what's so interesting about this is that a bit like Mozart, to begin with, he is better known as a player of music rather than as a composer. And so since he started out on the piano, let's have one of his very greatest piano pieces.
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527. Beethoven: Napoleon and the Music of War LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And we're going to hear the second movement of the Fourth Piano Concerto, which premiered in 1808 at the same evening that saw the Fifth Symphony premiered. And we are going to hear on the piano Mishka Rushdie-Mohmann.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And who will be a key figure in the story we're going to tell.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
I mean, the phrase Slav mercenaries is never something you want to hear if you're a peaceful villager, is it?
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
I would be less sceptical about it because he has seen London. He's seen Kiev. He's seen Christian kings and the power that they command. Yeah. And I think that everything about would-be Viking kings in this period suggests that they want a part of it.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
No, it doesn't have a quality of the crusade, but the possibility that he makes them put white crosses on their shields or whatever. I mean, it's certainly possible.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And it's the Battle of Stiklestad in Norway, one of the most celebrated events in the history of Norway and particularly of Norwegian Christianity. But we will come on to that in due course. So, Dominic, Harald Hardrada, Two episodes on the Thunderbolt of the North, as Adam of Brayman called him, the last Viking, the greatest warrior of his day. Take him away.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Do we know if Harold's brothers, who are the farmers?
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Do you think they've turned out?
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Because they wouldn't welcome Slavic mercenaries descending on there.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Well, this is the kind of figure that Neil Price talks about in his great book, The Viking Way. And he came and talked about Viking sorcery. And his great thesis is that so much of Viking culture is influenced by shamanistic traditions from the far north. That's a very fashionable view, though, isn't it, Tom? I like it.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Yeah, well, because the Earls of Orkney carry on being Vikings.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And it's all over. For Olaf, that's all right. Because do you know who had appeared to Olaf while he was in Novgorod in a dream? It's Olaf Tryggvason. Oh, no way. Another Olaf. So it was Olaf Tryggvason, who'd been Olaf the Stout's godfather. Right. He appeared to him and he said, look, don't worry. It's a glorious thing to die in battle. And then he vanished.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Yeah, but it would be a reassurance, wouldn't it? If your godfather tells you.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
I mean, just to say also, there must have been enough survivors of the battle the next day to go and find Olaf's body and spirit away. Yes. And they bury it in a sandy bank upriver from Trondheim. And this is very important for the Christianization of Norway. Yeah. Because his death in that battle will come to be seen as a martyrdom. And his relics will become a great object of pilgrimage.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Well, spoiler alert, he becomes a saint.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Well, as written several, I mean, a couple of centuries later. So definitely ornamented. But the basic outline of it, I agree, is astonishing. And we did an episode before on the Vikings going eastwards. And we talked about the strangeness of it's kind of like two different periods of history rubbing up against one another.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. We're in the midst, literally, of a saga. The 16-year-old Harold Hardrada is on the run. His brother Olaf the Stout has been killed. He's being hunted. He and his friend Rognarold have taken ship from the Swedish coast into the freezing waters of the Baltic. They have their ranger's hoods over their heads. Dominic, where are they going?
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And I mean, the context, the rivers and the network of forts, there is a sense beyond it of a kind of fantasy world, isn't there? Completely. Where, you know, there are dragons and I think men who have mouths between their nipples and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
the Viking Age and the Roman Age, because you have Harold walking around Constantinople. And we've been doing this series focused very much on England and the North Sea and northern France. But there are all kinds of links to the Mediterranean, to the Byzantine Empire, to the Holy Land that we will be exploring over the course of these episodes looking at Harold Hardrada's life.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Although he's a bit more kind of brutal, isn't he?
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
They kind of initially introduced themselves by capturing monks and shooting arrows into their heads. Exactly.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Well, there are two kinds, aren't there? There are people who are going to fight, but there are also merchants there. Yes. Skins, I think they're called. Exactly. And he is not going to be doing that.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Right, and the great silver hordes that you get in Viking Scandinavia, they're not just coming from England, they're also coming from Byzantium and from the Caliphate. These much richer parts of the world, quite frankly.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Who's a tremendous figure. Inevitably, a eunuch. Well, you say inevitably. Yeah. I mean, it's quite odd that the brother of the emperor would be a eunuch. But actually, it's the eunuch who had originally got Michael in. The eunuch comes first. Exactly. We will come to him because he's a great character.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Yeah, because the serpents go all the way down into the bowels of the palace.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And I think that when bands of Norse went southwards to begin with, it would be a kind of consortium. Exactly. So it's a band of Varangians who found Novgorod, for instance.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And for scrawling graffiti in churches.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
And do you think when they go back to Scandinavia. They're baggy silk trousers. They're like teenagers from a gap year in India.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
So exciting. So next time on The Rest Is History, we continue the saga of Harold Hardrada with the return of the king. And members of The Rest Is History Club, those who belong to our own Varangian Guard, can hear that story right now. And if you are not a Varangian, if you're just a skin, a merchant, then you can change that. You can sign up at therestishistory.com.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Alternatively, you can wait to hear it later in the week. But either way, we will be back with Barangian fun and games. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
But soon the Norwegians were pressing back, using their numbers to hem Olaf's men in, squeezing them, crushing them together. More missiles rained down, spears, arrows, and throwing axes. The ground was slippery with blood.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
I suppose what I would say, we would see the world as Snorri Sturluson. Right, yes. And medieval Iceland would see it. Whether that maps on exactly to how Harold sees it, we will explore that.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
I mean, I imagine him as a kind of a slow moving, but you wouldn't want to annoy ox.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
They would put kind of daisy chains around his horns, but do not provoke his wrath. That kind of thing.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
So Snorri says that his eyes are hard as serpents.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
It's more adventures in time, it has to be said.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
We talked in the previous series about Olaf Tryggvason, this kind of sinister reader of history. Bird bones. I mean, he establishes a Christian monarchy. He does it by committing spectacular atrocities in the name of Christ. And I think Harold Sigurdsson is... Cut from similar cloth. Very much in that kind of line of descent.
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
But also Harold then turns it, doesn't he? And makes a famous joke about his height, which we will come to.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
He's definitely a huge man. I don't think there's any doubt about that. And he's good looking because one of the other names that he gets as well as Hardrada is Fairhair.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Well, I mean, I guess the sagas preserve poetic traditions that definitely go back to the Viking age. And if this is part of the context in which Vikings are growing up, then they're going to model themselves on what they're reading in the epics. Exactly. It's a kind of a virtuous circle.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
He wants to live up to it. He wants to model himself on that.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
The fact that they have become Christian, that they have become kings, that they can now command the vast resources, almost of a kind of an emergent state, doesn't make them less of Vikings. Because if you think of Canute or Svein Fortbeard, Canute's dad, they're Vikings on a terrifying scale. And there's that intersection point, isn't there, where Viking brutality...
The Rest Is History
552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
and the resources available to a Christian king intersect. And it's very bad news for their neighbours.
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552. The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
So that unbelievably manly and buccaneering prose is from Adventures in Time, Fury of the Vikings. Dominic's excellent book on the Vikings. And it describes one of the many thrilling scenes from the life of Harold Hardrada. who will go on to become one of the stars of the great drama of 1066. But Dominic, this is not a description of a battle fought in 1066, but in 1030.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Harald Hardrada. Kind of, because there had been an agreement back in the days of the secession conflict agreement. between Harthacnut and Magnus, who had been the king of Norway, that if either one of them died without an heir, then the other would become successor to that person's kingdom. So there is just a sniff of a claim that Harold Hardrada might be able to leverage.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
But I think it's generally felt implausible and there's no real suggestion that Harold Hardrada is interested in the English throne. Then there is another Scandinavian king in the form of Svein Estridsson, who is the nephew of Canute and who, you know, people in England are well aware of how predatory Canute's family can be. You know, might he fancy coming back and getting his uncle's kingdom
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
When investing, your capital is at risk and tax rules do apply.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And the bottom line is they don't want a Viking king. I mean, they've had enough of Viking kings. Then another candidate, of course, is William the Duke of Normandy. And he has several kind of pros in his favor. So Edward almost certainly had promised him the throne 15 years previously when the Godwins had been in exile. The Godwins had then come back, of course.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Harold Godwinson had ended up in the hands of William and had sworn on the bones of saints that he would support William's claim to the throne. Hmm. And everyone in England knows that William is a ruthless and brilliant soldier and that there is a very, very strong risk that if he is denied the throne, then he will invade what he sees as his rightful kingdom.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
So that is something else to bear in mind. But there is, again, a huge con, which is that just as the Witan don't want a Scandinavian king, they don't want a Norman king either.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Well, I mean, the Normans have been part of English life because William's great aunt Emma, of course, had married Æthelred. So they are there. But I think what they've seen of the Normans, they don't really like. So yes, they don't want William either. So what about another descendant of Cerdic and... Alfred.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Yes, where he gets to be called by the English Edward the Exile. And he had married Agatha, who may well have been the sister-in-law of Harold Hardrada. So we were talking about the strange networks of marriage alliance that span the whole of Europe. And Edward the Confessor had definitely wanted to groom this nephew as his heir.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
So in 1054, he had sent Aeldred, who in due course is going to become the Archbishop of York, to go and fetch Edward the Exile. But Edward the Exile doesn't want to come. I mean, he's basically a Hungarian exile. He's perfectly happy eating his goulash, whatever. He doesn't want to come over. So 1056, two years later, it's the turn of Harold Godwinson to go and try and sort things out.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
So he travels to the continent and this time he is successful. And the following year in 1057, Edward the Exile arrives in England and And he's been there for about two days. He hasn't even met Edith the Confessor and he dies. He drops dead. So another, another mysterious death. And he leaves behind two daughters and crucially one son, a guy called Edgar. So what about Edgar?
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
He's still on the scene. He's clearly what the English call Atheling, which essentially means that you're eligible to inherit the throne. So he's called Edgar Atheling. He's been raised by Edith. So maybe he'd be acceptable to the Godwinson's. But there is a massive problem, and that is that he's only 13.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And the Witan are agreed, I think, that if they're going to ignore the claim of William, then they will need a honed warrior who is able to defend his throne and his kingdom. And that, in effect, means that there is only one candidate.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Is that fair? I think that is almost certainly their perspective, yes. It depends really how opposed they are to a Norman king. Are they sufficiently opposed that they are prepared to risk invasion? And if they are, then they have to choose someone who is able to withstand that invasion. I mean, that is essentially the bind they find themselves in.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And it is clearly the case that there are problems with choosing Harold. So firstly, he may be the brother-in-law of Edward the Confessor, but he has no blood link to the traditional royal line of the West Saxon monarchy. He's not a lineal descendant of Alfred the Great, as, say, Edgar the Atheling is.
The Rest Is History
554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
So the solution to this problem is to insist that Edward the Confessor had nominated Harold on his sickbed. Right. We have no definitive account of what Edward the Confessor said. So there are kind of various versions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which is the historical record that is being written as events happen in Old English.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And two versions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle say that Edward appointed England to Harold's protection. So does that mean he's appointing Harold as king or perhaps as regent for Edgar Atheling? I mean, it's unclear. But there is one version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle which does say that Edward specifically granted Harold the throne.
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And what's interesting is that actually the Normans tend to acknowledge this, the Norman historians we have. And the Bayeux Tapestry, which is a key source for the events of 1066, this great series of illustrations showing the events of that year. And we are shown Edward the Confessor lying on his deathbed. and speaking to his advisors.
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And then in the next illustration, so it's a bit like a strip cartoon, you have one of the men who is then offering Harold the crown, pointing back at this illustration of Edward the Confessor talking to the people around his bedside. So suggesting that Edward has said, go and give the crown to Harold, and then you see the crown being given to Harold.
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So the Witan obviously think, well, I mean, that's sufficient legitimacy. Now, the question is, what about Edwin and Morca? Who are the two earls who belong to the family that traditionally have been the great rival of the Godwinsons? I think it's pretty clear that they have been squared before Edward dies.
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And the proof of this is that very shortly after the Witan elect Harold as king, he marries their sister. And listeners will be thrilled to know that the name of this sister is also Edith.
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so Harold's sister is called Edith his wife you know the sister of Edwin and Morka is called Edith and his girlfriend stroke concubine stroke wife stroke mistress stroke whatever you want to call it is also called Edith and she has rejoices in the magnificent name of Swan Neck so Edith Swan Neck and Harold in the kind of the best tradition of Danish kings because he is half Danish his mother is Danish and
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sets Edith's swan neck aside, but still lives with her. But he now also has Edith, sister of Edwin and Morka, as his queen.
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And of course, if Harold and Edith, the sister of Edwin and Morka, have a son, then he will unite the two great rival dynasties of England. So that would be brilliant. We mentioned that Harold has sworn an oath on the bones of saints that he will back William's claim to the throne, and it does require him to break that.
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But there is a sense that Harold is a man who is less bound by oaths than perhaps a more conventionally religious person would be.
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So Harold is crowned on the 6th of January, the day he is chosen. And this is very unusual. There's usually a kind of much longer time separation of time between a king being elected and being crowned. And the haste is often described as unseemly, but I don't think it's unseemly at all.
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I think it's entirely understandable because everyone knows that his status as king has to be made manifest absolutely as soon as possible. And also the Witan are all on hand in Westminster to witness the coronation. And although we're not told that he's crowned in Westminster Abbey, he almost certainly is probably the first king to be crowned in Westminster Abbey.
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So Harold now, he's been crowned, he's been anointed. He has a good case to make that he is a legitimate king. He's been supposedly nominated by the confessor, he's been elected, he's been anointed. But as you say, that legitimacy is a crucial part of the armour that he needs to put on because he knows that his rule of England is absolutely going to come under attack.
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And in fact, not just from William, because the election of Harold as king is a red rag as well to someone else. Someone who has been lurking beyond the channel, twisted with hatred for Harold and resolved to have his revenge.
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So we mentioned how Morcar has been Earl of Northumbria only since the late autumn of 1066. And he's become Earl of Northumbria in succession to Tostig, Harold's own brother, who had been forced into exile by an alliance between the Northumbrians and the Mercians, led jointly by Morcar and by Edwin.
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And Tostig had been forced not just from office, but into exile and absolutely stunned by the unexpectedness and rapidity of his overthrow. He's convinced himself that actually the person behind it was his own brother, Harold. And of course, the spectacle of Harold marrying the sister of Edwin and Morka, the two men who had overthrown him, only confirms Tostig in his darkest suspicions.
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And like pretty much everyone else in this story, he wants to make a comeback. He is not content with exile. And he has fled to Flanders. partly because it's very close, partly because it's traditional for people in exile from England to go to Flanders, but also because his wife is from Flanders, as actually is the wife of William of Normandy.
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There is a tradition that's reported that Tostig had made overtures to the Duke of Normandy and had visited him. There is also another report, probably three, four decades after 1066, that says that he had sailed to Denmark to try and persuade Svein to join with him in that invasion. Definite sense that Tostig is kind of looking around for allies.
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And it is evident that Tostig, like William, is out for vengeance and is keen to obtain backing for it wherever he can find it.
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Yeah. And then Easter comes and goes. So the campaigning season is now upon England. And then it was, as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle recorded in its entry for 1066, that a portent was seen all over England, such as no man had ever witnessed before. Some called it a comet, others the long-haired star. And it generates much dread.
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And there is no more infallible portent of a looming crisis than a fiery-tailed star blazing day after day across the sky.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
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disaster is coming yeah absolutely and sure enough um even as the tail of the comet is flickering away into the inky vastnesses of space ominous news is being brought to harold from the isle of white the isle of white oh no that's the place you don't want to get news from So it is reported that an enemy fleet has landed there and extorted money and provisions. Is it the Normans?
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No, it's not the Normans. It's Tostig. So to quote the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle from the Isle of Wight, he then sailed onwards and ravaged everywhere he could make landing along the south coast until he came to Sandwich.
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But at Sandwich, he finds that Harold is ready for him, that Harold has gathered, again, to quote the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, a larger force, both in terms of ships and land forces, as no king in England had ever done before. So Tosti feels, well, I can't make a landing here. So he press gangs, sailors from Sandwich and the coast around it to serve in his fleet. And he then heads northwards.
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And he sails with 60 ships, we're told, by the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle up the Humber. And he starts ravaging Lincolnshire. But Edwin and Morca, his great bane, the two people who kicked him out, they raise the various kind of levies from their own lands and they confront him. And Tosti finds his own men melting away.
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So it's evident that the people of Mercia and Northumbria want nothing to do with him. Basically, everybody hates Tosti.
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According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and there are later sources which give further detail, and we'll be coming to them in our next episode, but according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, he then sails northwards for Scotland and the court of King Malcolm, who of course had succeeded to the throne in the wake of the overthrow of Macbeth.
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And this is very humiliating for Tosnig because Malcolm had swallowed up a large chunk of his earldom of Northumbria in the form of Cumbria, the late district. Yeah. And he'd raided Linda's farm, you know, and now Tostig's having to go and kind of... Do you know what he's like? He's like Ted Cruz paying homage to Donald Trump, isn't he? That is what he's like. Yes. Yeah.
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And, you know, maybe this is the end of the road for him. Doesn't really seem a comeback, does there?
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Yes. And when Churchill, he wasn't yet prime minister, he was first Lord of the Admiralty. And so he was surrounded by maps of the English coastline. And of course, he was pondering the risks of divided leadership, of antiquated defences, of threats of invasion from overseas. And so it's no wonder that he wrote about 1066 and the fall of Anglo-Saxon England, perhaps in tones of slight foreboding.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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That's right, Dominic. I think of the great Egyptian female pharaoh Hatshepsut, who was so busy with all her mortuary temples and things that she needed someone to sort out the details for her. And that, of course, was her great advisor, Senenmut. And I think Senenmut doesn't get enough shout outs in adverts.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. He's not just about leading battle charges.
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Well, I mean, also, of course, his mind is on Norway. And as we will see, the threat of invasion from Norway as well. And 1940, the year in which he is writing that, in itself, of course, will become a fateful and famous year in British history.
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Churchill's role in that, because he becomes Prime Minister the following month, means that he doesn't really have much time during the defence of Britain and the Blitz and so on to ponder the Norman conquest. And the events of that year are themselves now part of British history. And 1940 is one of the most famous dates in British history.
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That I think is the key thing. He, the only way he can hope to win is to force a battle, which means effectively to gamble everything, his life, everything on a single decisive encounter. And the truth is, is that he's only fought one battle really before. And that was back in 1047 when he was about eight. He'd fought that pitch battle against the rebels, against his rule.
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And so it's a huge gamble. And- you might wonder, well, why would he take such a risk? I mean, he's built up so much in Normandy. Why would he risk it all? And I think it's because despite his respect for Harold and his military capabilities, William is confident that he will win. And that confidence is founded on various factors. The first is he is... very aware of what he commands.
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He knows that Normandy is the most disciplined warrior society in Europe. And he knows that the Normans are capable of feats of conquest that is beyond the capacity of anybody else in Christendom. And he knows this because by 1066, those Normans who we talked about in the previous series who traveled to Southern Italy. Yeah.
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and started attacking the Byzantines and the Muslims, they have crossed the Straits of Messina and embarked on the conquest of Sicily. And it's going very, very well. So Norman adventurers, not even backed by Norman state power, have conquered most of southern Italy and are well on their way to conquering the whole of Sicily.
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But I would say that even so, not 1940, not 1815, not 1805, not 1588, not 1415, all of which are years old. which show Britain and or England in a very good light. Yeah.
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William does appreciate, however, that this isn't just down to the qualities of Norman prowess, but also to factors that are common across France, but not England. And these are heavy cavalry. So people who the English have come in to call knights.
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The construction of castles, not just as defensive, but as offensive structures and crossbows, which are kind of new innovation that the English haven't really caught on to. And if the Byzantines and the Muslims in southern Italy and Sicily, they have no idea what's hitting them when the Normans fight them, then the likelihood is that neither will be English.
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So to quote a wonderful book, Predatory Kinship, The Creation of Norman Power. by the great scholar Eleanor Searle. And she wrote, the Anglo-Saxons lauded it from wooden halls and did not fight in sophisticated cavalry units, nor were they organised primarily for warfare, as were William's magnates, after their long testing and occupying and holding the land of enemies.
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England lay open without the new technology of warfare. So that's what you were saying, that even though Harold and his houseguards have been fighting, the mass of people in England are not organised for warfare in the way that the Normans are.
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As you say, it's not just a military revolution that Latin Christendom is undergoing. It's a religious one as well. And it's a process that is called reformatio, a convulsive and deeply contested attempt to remake Christian society by cleansing and purifying it.
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And what that means in practice is a conviction on the part of leading figures in the Roman church that the church should free itself not just from sin, but from the grubby fingerprints of sinners, which in effect means kings and emperors. And in the conviction that this is what God wants, they are pushing through a program of reform.
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And to do this, effectively, they're a kind of cadre of revolutionaries who have seized control of the commanding heights of the Roman church. And by 1066, the most formidable of these revolutionaries, the most influential, isn't the Pope, but an archdeacon by the name of Hildebrand.
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And there is lines that are said of him that is very popular by the 1060s, that if you would thrive at Rome, say this at the top of your voice, more than the Pope, I obey the Lord of the Pope. So that is Hildebrand. And actually within seven years, Hildebrand will become Pope and he will take the name of Gregory VII and he will take on the emperor himself and convulse the whole empire. of Europe.
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But already in the 1060s, you have a sense of this great earthquake that is to come. And there is immense enthusiasm in France for this spirit of reform. And the Normans especially are absolutely signed up to it. And they're very much Hildebrand's kind of people. They're very devout. They're very effective at toppling people that Hildebrand doesn't like.
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The Normans in Italy have basically become the sword of the papal reformers. So these revolutionaries, obviously, they need men in mail with horses and spears, and the Normans are there, and it's absolutely brilliant. And so in 1063, Hildebrand had got the Pope, Alexander, to send Count Roger de Hauteville, the guy who will lead the conquest of Sicily, to send him a papal banner
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And this effectively is sanctifying his invasion of Sicily ruled by the Muslims as a holy war. And they have also given a blessing to, to Normans who are fighting the Muslims in Spain. So you have there the sense that something very novel and radical, the idea that armed warfare can be blessed by the church is starting to coalesce as an idea. And the problem about this for the English is,
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is that they are very much not Hildebrand's kind of people. They are now ruled by a king who has broken an oath sworn on the bones of saints. You don't care about this. No. But Hildebrand absolutely does.
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A whole range of historical villains. And yet the weird thing is, is that none of those dates can compare for resonance or fame with 1066, a year which sees England invaded, defeated and conquered. And I don't know whether Arthur has yet reached the stage of studying it.
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That is as may be and to be discussed. There is also a further problem with the English church, which is that Stigand, the Archbishop of Canterbury, he is the embodiment of everything the reformers hate. So as well as being Archbishop of Canterbury, he's also the Bishop of Winchester. He's venal. He's avaricious. He's cynical. Yeah, he's great. I love Stigand.
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The reformers in Rome keep excommunicating him and Stigand keeps snapping his fingers at this and saying, well, so what? Who cares about a load of excommunications and saints bones? Come on. And he's so toxic. that Harold has actually almost certainly refused to be crowned by him because he doesn't want William to take advantage of this, although the Normans will.
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I mean, they will say that he'd been crowned by Stigand, so he seems to have been crowned by Eldred instead. And all of this means that when William's ambassadors travel to Rome in the summer of 1066 to request a papal blessing for the invasion, Hildebrand behind the scenes is busy pulling strings to ensure that that is exactly what the Normans get. Like a corrupt and cruel spider.
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Or like a man determined to purge the Christian people of sin, Dominic. I mean, it depends on your perspective. Where's he now? I know we're good, I'll tell you. And the upshot is that William is given the standard of St. Peter the Apostle, and it's been blessed by the Pope himself. And it has to be said that this is massively controversial across Europe, but also in Rome itself.
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To equate the English with infidels... and to sanction the overthrow of an anointed king is a massive, massive deal. And Hildebrand himself acknowledges this. He writes to William, there are many among my brothers who revile me for this judgment and charge me with laboring to bring about a terrible sacrifice of human lives. So that would be your take, I guess.
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But Hildebrand's own conscience is clear because he thinks that a reformed, cleansed, purified England is a prize well worth fighting for. He sees it as a bog of sin, that needs to be drained. And if William can affect this, then William will not only have served the cause of the reformers in Rome, but also of the sin-steeped English themselves.
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Yes, Hildebrand is awake to sin and the English are sleeping. And obviously this is great news for William. who is unbelievably ruthless, but also unbelievably pious. And it's the combination of the two that throughout this period makes the Normans so terrifying and effective.
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Well, he's going to put it to the test, isn't he? Because God is going to decide. And it is at massive high stakes for William. It's not just about will he die in battle if he's defeated, but where will his soul go? Because, as you say, to aspire to kill an anointed king. And then, of course, in due course, William wants to become king and be anointed himself.
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I mean, if God is not on his side, then that is a fateful thing to be planning.
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And I think that the shadow of anxiety about this must have grown over William over the summer because throughout August and then into September, the winds are against him. And he keeps praying, you know, let the winds turn, give us a favourable wind to get us to England. But they don't.
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And in England, where Harold's levees are stationed, waiting for this invasion, and it doesn't come, by early September, provisions are running out. It's harvest time. And Harold must be thinking, well, I don't think he's going to come this year. I mean, it's too late. I don't think he's going to risk it crossing England. the channel this late in the season.
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And so on the 8th of September, Harold decides to gamble that William will not be coming and he sends his men home. And he also sends his fleet to London, so from the south coast. And as it is sailing up the channel, there is a terrible storm. And the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle reports, many perished before they reached London. So that is a blow.
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England's naval defences are not what they might have been had that storm not blown. However, Dominic, this is not the worst news to greet Harold, because when he arrives from the south coast in London... He is informed that what he had thought would not happen this late in the season has happened, that England has been invaded.
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It is not, however, a Norman invasion, and it has not happened on the south coast. Instead, it has happened in the north. A great war fleet has sailed into the Humber. Tostig is back. And with him, your hero, Harold Hardrada.
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Because when my daughters went from primary school to secondary school, the first history that they did in secondary school was 1066. I mean, that was their introduction, basically, to the history of England. Yeah. It struck me at the time, I can't imagine French or American students being introduced to their country's history with a record of their country being defeated, occupied and humiliated.
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Well, it also speaks to the fact that 1066, I mean, it is an incredibly decisive year and we will be doing a bonus on just how decisive the kind of the long-term consequences of 1066. But also, and again, we talked about this before, it is so dramatic. So it's a showdown between three great warlords, all of whom we've mentioned in our previous episodes.
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So Harold Hardrada, we've just done two episodes on his extraordinary story. William of Normandy, Harold Godwinson, And each of those are representing three, you know, deeply fascinating, deeply kind of menacing powers. So Viking Scandinavia with its dragon ships and its hard rulers, Normandy with its knights, its castles and Anglo-Saxon England with its mead halls and its moustaches.
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The good on Vanguard for giving Senenmut a chance to feature in an advert after all these thousands of years. And today, you don't have to go it alone when it comes to investing. With Vanguard's managed ISA, their experts take care of the hard work for you.
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And a bit like in the Harold Hardrada episode where you have Vikings going to a Roman capital, there is a sense that this is a year where a guy who's representing knights and castles is invading an island at the same time as a guy who is having dragon ships and giant axes and things.
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Again, it's like one of those computer games where people from different periods are kind of rubbing up against each other.
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And that prize is England. And so as the new year dawns, as 1065 slips into history, England is the focus of obsessive interest across the whole of Northern Europe and specifically one place in England, namely Westminster. which previously undistinguished settlement to the west of the city of London, the old Roman city with its great walls.
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But for several years now, several decades, has been a great hive of activity because it is the centre of a massive palace complex, which has been sponsored by Edward the Confessor, King of England, for the past two and a half decades. And Westminster is celebrated above all for its abbey, Or in Old English, it's Minster. So it is a Minster to the west of London. So hence, Westminster.
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And it's absolutely, as Churchill hinted in that opening, I mean, it is an expression of his piety. Confessor is a soubriquet given to him as an indication of his devotion to the church. But it is also an expression of his relative impotence because Edward the Confessor is old. He is sick. He is childless. And for most of his reign,
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This man who is descended supposedly from Woden via Kurdic, the legendary founder of the West Saxon line, from Alfred the Great, from Athelstan. He has been in the shadow of a single upstart family.
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Yeah, so at the end of 1065, he is the Earl of Wessex. Yeah. And he's got two brothers, both of whom are earls, so kind of dominant magnates in England. So you've got Giff, who is the Earl of East Anglia, and you have Leofwine, who is basically Earl of the Home Counties. Right. Okay. Yeah. So all those garden centres and things. Right. Very nice. And Edith, remind us who Edith is.
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So Edith is their sister and she is married to Edward the Confessor. Right. Yes. And the Abbey really is a way for Edward to sidestep his political impotence and kind of lay down a spiritual marker that he hopes will endure for all time, which up to this point it has done. Westminster Abbey is still standing there.
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And although the Abbey built by Edward the Confessor was effectively demolished and rebuilt in the reign of Henry III, so several centuries later, nevertheless, the building that Edward the Confessor sponsors is huge. I mean, it is much larger than any building ever before commissioned by an Anglo-Saxon king. And so it is a hugely impressive legacy that he knows that he will lead.
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And by the end of 1065, it's not quite finished. So the porch still needs to be done up, you know, liquor paint, that kind of thing. But it's clear that Edward probably isn't going to see it finished because as Christmas 1065 approaches, he is clearly terminally ill.
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And so it's decided that the celebration of Christmas should be combined with the dedication of the Abbey so that Edward will get to see it. So Christmas Day, a great feast is held. Edward presides at the table, but he's really not well. He can only toy with his food. He's not enjoying Christmas in any way.
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And on the 28th of December, which is the day that Westminster Abbey is dedicated, he's too ill to attend the service. And so Edith, his queen, Harold Godwinson's sister, stands in for him at the service. And for a week after that, Edward is going downhill, slipping in and out of consciousness, occasionally revivering, muttering about terrible times coming for England.
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So that's what Churchill was alluding to. And the end comes, as Churchill said, on the 5th of January, 1066. So 5th January, my birthday. So two famous things happen.
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So Edward is then buried the following day. But that is not the only momentous thing that happens on the 6th of January 1066, because it is notable as well for a great assembly in Westminster of the Witan. And the Witan are the great magnates and bishops of England.
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And of course, they had gathered in Westminster for the Christmas celebrations, for the dedication of the Abbey, and they had then stayed on, partly to celebrate the Feast of Epiphany, but also in expectation that the king is going to die, because it is their duty to elect the next king. The Anglo-Saxon monarchy is elective.
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Yes, as you say, the likelihood is that the hereditary principle will kick in. But if there is not a suitable candidate to hand, if there is not a sum of eligible age, then discussions are held.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
They'll do the rest. And of course, Dominic, that frees up so much time, doesn't it? I'm not a pharaoh. I'm not planning to construct an enormous mortuary temple to myself. But I do have things that I would rather be doing than sorting out investments. So if Vanguard is sorting out your ISA, what will you do? Discover Managed ISA today.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Leofric, who was married to Lady Godiva, who rode through Coventry naked on a horse. Exactly. So a fun grandmother.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
So it's basically for three generations. And in 1066, you've got two heirs to this dynasty, and both of them are earls. So you have Edwin the Elder Brother, who is the Earl of Mercia. So that's the Midlands. And then you've got Morcar, who has just become the Earl of Northumbria. And both of these earls are present in Westminster.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
Adding to the swirl of tensions between the Godwinsons and these two earls, Edwin and Morca, is the fact that less than two months previously, Edwin and Morca had been in armed and open revolt against the power of the Godwinsons. So scope for tension there. There is also tension in the upper ranks of the church because you've got the bishops, abbots, and the kingdom's two archbishops.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And the most senior of the archbishops, the Archbishop of Canterbury, a guy called Stigand, the guy who Churchill said had been a close associate of the Godwins. Churchill is not wrong. Stigand basically had been a protege of Earl Godwin. And when Godwin had been driven into temporary exile by Edward the Confessor in 1051, he's said to have wept over the departure of his patron.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
And when Godwin returns, Edward has brought in a Norman, Robert of Jumièges, to be Archbishop of Canterbury. But when Godwin comes back, Robert of Jumièges flees to the continent and Stigand is installed in Canterbury as his place.
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554. 1066: The Shadows of War (Part 1)
The other Archbishop, Eldred, the Archbishop of York, he too is close to the Godwins, but also had been very, very close to Edward the Confessor, and so is a more neutral figure than Stigand. And York itself had been Viking Jorvik, a city traditionally very sympathetic to the Scandinavian world, quite hostile to the Godwinsons. So again, there is scope there for tension.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Probably the most popular theory, and it's the one that Leopold himself cleaves to, is the notion that Mozart is a gift from God. And this is certainly what he tells the archbishop. You know, he goes and says, look, I've been given this miracle by God. I should basically take him out and make loads of money wanted.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
There are others, however, who kind of slightly cut God out of the equation and say that he's a prodigy of nature. And this is a period where the idea that humanity kind of separate from civilization, so the idea of a child being possessed of kind of great quality, it's very, very important. So Rousseau, the innocence of childhood, all that stuff. Yes, exactly.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so Mozart becomes a kind of icon for this idea. It's also the Enlightenment, of course, and there are skeptics. There are people who think that Leopold is kind of writing, you know, the young Mozart's concertos for him. And so some of these savants take the little boy and lock him up in a room and tell him to write something, and he does. and they're satisfied.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And actually, the ultimate proof of Mozart's genius is that he is inspected by a member of the Royal Society here in London, and he gives Mozart a clean bill of health as well. So it becomes apparent that he is not a fraud. He really is an absolute prodigy of nature, a gift of God, whatever you want to call him. But there is, of course, a problem coming down the road towards Leopold.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
You know, he's got to keep himself and his roast chicken and his snuff boxes. And the problem with The Prodigy is that while it's amazing to watch a six-year-old play the violin, it's slightly less amazing to watch a teenager play the violin.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so what Leopold decides as the young Mozart is approaching his teenage years is that rather than emphasizing his precocity as a musician, as a player of instruments, which is what he had previously been doing, he's going to focus on the young Mozart's ability as a composer. And to that end, he goes on the most extravagant, the boldest tour of all.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
It's kind of the equivalent of the Beatles the first time they go to America. Mozart goes to Italy, the home of music. This is an age when Italians would regard the idea that a German speaker could be musically able as kind of comical. But Mozart pulls it off. He dazzles everybody. Lots more snuff boxes, but also lots of Italian maestros going, wow, this guy is incredible.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And the ultimate imprimatur of quality, the stamp of approval from Italy, comes when Mozart is given a commission from the Opera House in Milan. So one of the most famous opera houses in the whole of Europe. And he is told, would you like to write us an opera? And Dominic, when he is given this commission, Mozart is 14 years old.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So everything is going brilliantly for young Mozart. He's got his GCSE in music. He's got loads of new commissions on the back of Mitrodate. And back in Salzburg... Everyone's unbelievably proud of him. The Archbishop, absolutely purring. It all looks superb. Except that there are gathering clouds hanging over Project Mozart. Now, the first of these is what Leopold really wants for his son.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He wants to get him long-term security. And the way he thinks he can best do that is to find his son a post as a Kappelmeister, which effectively is the kind of the head of music at a court. And so he takes him around various courts and all the dukes and the counts and so on. I mean, they're impressed. They recognize that Mozart is quality, but they keep saying, oh, he's too young. He's too young.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Come back in 10 years time. So this is very disappointing for Leopold, but even more disappointing is the fact that there seems to be no interest in Mozart whatsoever from the imperial court in Vienna. And he's puzzled by this because, of course, you know, as a six-year-old, little Mozart had hugged the empress. But the awful truth is, is that the empress actually thinks they're a bit vulgar.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
She says, you know, they've been going around Europe like beggars. It's very, very undignified. And so she is not interested. And then the worst blow of all, the Archbishop of Salzburg had been such an indulgent patron
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
he dies and he gets replaced by a new archbishop who's a very different character and he rejoices in the splendid name of count hieronymus colorado and count hieronymus colorado the new archbishop he's had enough of the mozarts gadding around europe he wants them to be what they are he wants them to be essentially his servants and so his goal
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Thank you.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
which he institutes the moment he has been enthroned as Archbishop, is to treat Mozart not as a genius, but as an employee.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Yeah, well, I mean, I don't want to compare us to Mozart. Let's not go down that avenue. But just to say, there are social humiliations. But I think also what oppresses Mozart more than anything else is that he knows how good he is. You know, he wants to test the limits. He doesn't want to be chained up in Salzburg having to compose whatever rubbish the archbishop wants.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He wants basically to do a handle, to go out there and become a freelance. And the archbishop is furious at this. He sees it, I mean not unjustifiably, as kind of rank ingratitude. And Leopold, his dad, is also worried for various reasons, I think. One, he doesn't want his son to end up kind of starving to death in a garret. He knows it's going to be very insecure being a freelance.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I think also he's anxious that if his son annoys the archbishop, then this might end up badly for him. He might get dismissed from his own position. And I think also... He can't bear the thought of being separated from his son. The relationship between Leopold and the young Mozart, it's the most intense relationship that either of them will have in their entire lives.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And the thing that Leopold is becoming increasingly worried about, Mozart's little fellow, as he calls it, Mozart is getting interested in girls. And... What Leopold is worried about is that Mozart might actually marry. So this is the real disaster that he's fretting about. But, you know, Mozart, he's 1770, he turns 21. And he decides that he's going to go out into the world and he doesn't care.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And when Leopold says no, he goes, no, dad, I'm off. And so off he goes. And Leopold can't go because he's got to stay behind with the archbishop. So Mozart's much-loved mother goes with him. And they head off and they go to various places across the Holy Roman Empire. Not to any great effect, but I think Mozart's having quite a good time. And then they end up in a...
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
a city on the Rhine called Mannheim. And in Mannheim, they stay in a house that is owned by the prompter in the local theatre, Herr Weber. And Herr Weber has not one, not two, not three, but four gorgeous daughters. And young Wolfie... He falls madly in love with a soprano called Aloysia. And the news of this gets back to Leopold, and he absolutely blows a gasket.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And he writes to Mozart and to his mother and says, what are you doing? Why are you wasting your time mooning over girls in a no-hope place like Mannheim? Go to Paris. Go to London. If you want to make a go of being freelance, do it in a place where you can make enough money for it to be sustainable. And so Mozart obeys, and he goes to Paris. and it's a disaster.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He hates Paris, he hates the French, he hates French music, he hates French taste, he hates everything about it. That's fair enough, Tom. I was waiting for the gusts of laughter. I'm glad they finally came, because we are now, and you'll be ashamed of yourselves for laughing, we're plunging into tragedy, because while Mozart is in Paris, his mother dies. And Mozart is prostrated by this.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He adored his mother and he is crippled by grief. And eventually he leaves Paris and he crawls back to Mannheim to bury his face in the comforting chest of Aloysia. Only to find that Aloysia's only gone and married someone else. And so what's poor Wolfie to do? He has to go back to Salzburg. That must be humiliating, Tom. Very, very humiliating.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And essentially, he kind of knuckles down for several years. He writes the kind of dreary stuff that the archbishop wants. But all the time, he's pulling at his chains. And he still has his dreams. And we've got to follow our dreams, Dominic. We've got to follow our dreams, haven't we? I mean, you, as a young man, you were an academic. I was.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But you had dreams of writing enormously long books about the Wilson government.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Recording podcasts about monkeys, and you lived your dream. Yeah, I have. A nightmare, I think some people would call it. And Mozart is determined to live his dream. And the crucial moment comes in 1781 when he's 25, and he's summoned to Vienna by the Archbishop of Salzburg, who wants to show him off like a kind of performing monkey.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And this is humiliating for Mozart, because he is a figure of great consequence in Vienna, much admired by fellow musicians, by fellow composers, and he doesn't want to be at the beck and call of an archbishop. And so he says, No go. On top of that, as well as infuriating the archbishop, he also infuriates Leopold, because when he turns up in Vienna, he finds that the Webers have moved there.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And although the soprano, Aloysia, she's got her own man, there is another Weber sister available, and this is Constanza. And Mozart announces that he wants to marry her, and Leopold hits the roof. So he's infuriated both the archbishop and Leopold. He's summoned to a kind of...
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
a make-or-break conference, and it goes so badly that the archbishop's steward, according to Mozart's own account, kicks him up the arse out of the room, and that is it. That is the end of Mozart's term of employment at Salzburg, and from this point on, he will become a freelance. So he's in a bit of a mess, isn't he, Tom, because this is all very stressful for him. It is a mess.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And I think Mozart's music has such a quality of lightness and often of joy that it It can be easy to miss the expressions of stress and unhappiness, but they are definitely there. And the piece we're going to hear now is... I'd never heard it played live before.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
When we walked in here this afternoon for our rehearsal, I heard the strains of it coming from the stage, and I can't wait to hear it again. It's a piece that he wrote in Paris in the days and weeks after the death of his mother, and it is... simply sublime.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I mean, Dominic, that is a reminder that no recording can compare with the power of live music. That was amazing. Not at all.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
It absolutely did. And that's because every piece of music you've heard during this podcast has been performed live by the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
The Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields is one of the most recorded orchestras of all time, giving more than 80 concerts a year across the world, including a stunning series in London at the historic Church of St Martin-in-the-Fields. The Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields is offering an exclusive complimentary Friends membership to all listeners of The Rest Is History.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
You can attend open rehearsals, enjoy pre-concert talks and meet and greets with soloists, access exclusive digital downloads, and crucially, receive 25% off tickets to their London concerts. To claim your complimentary Friends membership and explore all these incredible opportunities, just go to asmf.org forward slash history. So don't miss out.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Visit asmf.org forward slash history and sign up today.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Well, obviously, it comes with costs. Leopold has repeatedly reminded Mozart of these costs. They are above all financial. So Mozart is very vulnerable to geopolitical shocks. hitting Austria and affecting the ability of aristocratic patrons to sponsor him. Another risk, of course, is that he might fall ill because then he won't be able to write, he won't make any money.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And even though he's left the Archbishop of Salzburg, there are still uncomprehending patrons. And the whole point for Mozart to go freelance really is so that he can stretch his wings, he can test the limits And I think because of that, he is seen by certain patrons as being difficult, as being challenging.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Yeah, so probably apocryphal, but I mean, it has the ring of truth because I think Mozart really is impatient with the kind of the musical ancien regime, if you want to put it like that.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And in fact, in 1790, so when the French Revolution is really kicking off, a fellow composer accuses Mozart of being, in musical terms, a sans-culottes, someone who wants to kind of burn down... Somebody who's wearing trousers rather than breeches. Well, so that's true. I mean, we'll see. Mozart is actually quite, he likes his fashion. So he might like a clot, he might like a pair of trousers.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But he is pushing at the limits. And then the other problem, of course, that he faces is a more personal and more emotional one. And that is that he has gone through a huge family bust-up.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So not only is his father alienated, but his beloved sister, Nannerl, who's also a brilliant musician, much loved by Mozart, she kind of ends up so cross with him that basically communication between them breaks off. And in 1782, when he marries Constanza, neither his father nor his sister is there at the wedding. And although... Mozart remains in contact with Leopold.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
They love each other too much for the break to be total. I think that from this point onwards, the love that they undoubtedly both still feel for each other is massively, massively poisoned by a kind of sense of mutual resentment.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Hello, everyone. I hope you had a wonderful Christmas and we have two festive treats coming up for you today and on Thursday. These are two halves of a show that we recorded at the Royal Albert Hall on the 18th of October with a full choir, a full orchestra.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So, he has servants. He goes from being a servant to having servants. Like you, Dominic, like me, like Keir Starmer, he loves a suit. He's always cutting a dash. He has an exquisite red coat, which excites much admiration. And actually, when his father comes to stay with him in Vienna, Mozart takes great pleasure in saying, look at these apartments.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
These are costing me more than I would have earned in an entire year had I stayed in the service of the Archbishop of Salzburg, which is, of course, what his father had done. But you said, you know, the most important thing to Mozart is money. I mean, it is important to him, but actually I think the most important thing to him is that he can test his sense of his own genius to the absolute limits.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so the... It is claimed that his reply to Joseph II's comment, too many notes, my dear Mozart. Mozart replies, there are exactly as many notes as there need to be, your majesty. And if there are Joseph II's in Vienna and across Europe, people who don't properly appreciate what Mozart is doing, there are lots who do. And it's not just that Mozart is writing masterpieces.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
These masterpieces are recognized as such. And I think it's from this that you get in the Romantic period. Mozart is not really, you know, he's not a product of the Romantic period. But going into the 1800s, the 1810s, people look back and they say, actually, you know, he was a romantic figure before Romanticism. This is a man who... He defied convention in the cause of following his art.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He didn't let anything stand in his way. And I suppose... The great work that most famously, in the opinion of his romantic admirers, illustrated this was an opera that was premiered in Prague in October 1787. And it was written crucially four months, it was premiered four months after the death of Leopold, so Mozart's father. And this opera was called Don Giovanni.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And Don Giovanni told the story of a man who cared nothing for convention, who seduced, who committed adultery, who killed people, and he never apologizes. But Don Giovanni has serious daddy issues.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And the daddy is a figure called the Commendatore, whom Don Giovanni had killed in the opening moments of the opera, and who he then sees a statue of, and in a foolish moment, invites to supper, and is absolutely stunned. He's sitting down to his meal when there's a great hammering on the door, and in strides the statue of the Commendatore.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And the commendatore points at Don Giovanni, and he sings. Don Giovanni, a cenoteco.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I've now sung opera on the stage of the Albert Hall. Don Giovanni still refuses to apologize. The commendatore urges him to repent. Don Giovanni won't. He reaches out, takes his hand. You going to take your hand? And then the commendatore drags Don Giovanni down to hell. And the last you hear of Don Giovanni, he goes, ah, ah, ah. And that's the story.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Now, in a nutshell, you never need to see it now. So is Mozart, is Mozart Don Giovanni? I don't think so. I think that is a kind of romantic over-reading.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And I think, actually, if you want an opera that gives you a sense of where Mozart is coming from, the sense of frustration that he feels as someone who is beholden on the sponsorship of aristocratic patrons, much better to look at the opera he wrote the previous year in 1786. And this is The Marriage of Figaro, an absolute smash hit.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I think it's the oldest opera to have been permanently on the repertoire. And this is based on a very controversial French play, which has been banned in Vienna because it is seen as being offensive towards the aristocracy. And the marriage of Figaro, Figaro himself is a servant to a count. And he wants to marry the maid of the countess. The maid is called Susanna.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But the count wants to claim the droit de seigneur, the right to take Susanna to bed before she marries Figaro. And Figaro is furious about this. Understandably, I think. And the plot of the opera, there's loads of jumping out of windows, swapping clothes, all this kind of thing. And it ends up with the Count humiliated in a garden.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And this moment of humiliation is then transformed into a moment of the most exquisite reconciliation. The Countess, who has been wronged by the Count, forgives him. Susanna, who's been wronged by Figaro, forgives him.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And I just want to pay tribute to my beloved uncle, who's no longer with me, who, when I was about 13 or 14, gave me a box set of cassettes of The Marriage of Figaro and talked me through this moment, gave me love, not just for Mozart, but for opera full stop. You know, it would be my Desert Island Discs, that moment.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But it's not the moment, I think, that best conveys the sense of frustration that Mozart felt with the social setup that he was involved in. Because there is a better aria that does that. And this is the last aria that Figaro the Servant sings. And... It's a moment where he thinks that Susanna has betrayed him.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And he's so upset, he's so angry that he kind of breaks through the fourth wall and he addresses the men in the audience directly. And he says, aren't women awful? They're always betraying us. And of course, he's wrong.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Those in the know, those who are familiar with the original French play would know that this aria is in the place that in the play has Figaro complaining about the aristocracy, addressing the count, saying, you think you're so wonderful, but you're not wonderful at all. The only reason that you can do what you do is because you were born into it.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so if you want to have a sense of not just Figaro, but Mozart speaking truth to power, this aria we're about to hear now, this is the one.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Yeah, I think it does. And I think the idea of Mozart as a spendthrift, as a kind of, you know, a genius who in money matters is just a child, I think that that's in large part a reflection of the impact of Leopold's letters in which he's cast as exactly that. But it is true to say that by 1789 and 1790, things are starting to go slightly downhill.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And, of course, these are the years that sees the French Revolution breaks out. And Austria is very much impacted by this. Marie Antoinette, of course... is a Habsburg. And on top of that, on the eastern flank of the Habsburg Empire, a war has broken out with the Turks.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So this is not good news for someone who depends essentially on kind of stable conditions, conditions of peace, to get commissions. But there are also more kind of domestic, more personal reasons for the downturn in Mozart's fortunes. His wife Constanza falls very seriously ill.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He has to spend lots of money on medicine, packing her off to spas, all the kind of stuff that happens in the German-speaking world when you fall ill.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Mozart himself then falls ill and this is the real calamity because of course when he's lying in bed he can't work and if he can't work he's not making any money and he does recover but he's really really short of funds and so 1790 1791 his correspondence is full of frankly embarrassing catching letters trying to get money out of his rich friends and then
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
In the summer of 1791, there comes a fateful commission, a commission to write a requiem.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Yeah, I think the kind of the eeriest, the most haunting story, perhaps, in the whole of classical music. And it derives from reminiscences from Constanza in the wake of Mozart's death. And she spoke to the man who would then go on to write the first biography of Mozart. And according to Constanza, the commission to write the Requiem, it's anonymous. It comes from an unknown messenger.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Mozart starts writing it, and he falls ill, but continues working on it. And as he works on it, he becomes convinced that he is writing the Requiem for himself. And not only that, but that he is being poisoned. Now, he never finishes it, because on the 5th of December 1791, just after midday, he dies. And he is buried alive. in a common grave. Almost no mourners attend the ceremony.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And after he is buried, there is no memorial, no headstone to mark the place where his body lay. And it's from this that you get, again, the romantic myth that Mozart died forgotten, unknown, a pauper. And it's very powerful and this is why people believe it. However, in the main, it's not true. Sorry. We've told it and now we're going to debunk it.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
We're going to have our cake and we're going to eat it. We know exactly who commissioned the Requiem. It was an eccentric count who enjoyed employing musicians to write pieces for him, and he would then pass them off as his own. So he was essentially employing Mozart to be a ghostwriter. Mozart was not poisoned. He seems to have died of rheumatic fever. He was not forgotten.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
When the news spread across Vienna that Mozart had died, huge crowds gathered outside his house to mourn him. He was cherished and admired. And maybe because of that, he wasn't really a pauper either. He was still in financial trouble, but he was starting to recoup his losses.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
an opera that he wrote in 1791 that got put on the Magic Flute, absolute smash, probably his most lucrative opera of the lot. So there are signs that he was kind of hauling himself back from the financial brink. And although it is true that he had a very spare funeral, that people didn't go to the ceremony, that there is no headstone, I think this reflects...
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
More than anything, his personal piety, his sense that, possibly as a reaction to the excesses of the Baroque, that an overly flamboyant funeral would be disrespectful to God.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I do find it upsetting to ponder the death of Mozart so early. He dies when he's 36. You think of all the music that he could have written if he'd survived. He kept a journal, and in it, he was working out things that he might do late in the future, and he would write up the date through the 1790s into the 1800s.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So he was contemplating living certainly into the 19th century, and of course he doesn't, and it's hard not to feel that as a terrible tragedy. But I think also the kind of impersonality of that funeral It is upsetting. So the scene in Amadeus where he's kind of chucked into the grave and then lime is thrown over it and they just wander off and there is Mozart's body.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
I do find that kind of upsetting and I think the reason for that is that in his lifetime Mozart was loved but in the wake of his death he became even more loved and he has remained loved to this day. And there is a kind of sorrow about his death I think. Well, thank you, Tom.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And, Dominic, ladies and gentlemen, I think you'll agree that was quite something. We've had many great musical moments on The Rest Is History. One thinks of Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend, sung by me. And more recently, Don't Cry For Me, Argentina, which was also sung by me. But I think, I mean, that wasn't bad. That was kind of up there, wasn't it?
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Thank you.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. And we will be back on Thursday in 2025, our first show of 2025 with the second half of that show that we recorded at the Royal Albert Hall. And the focus of that show will be Beethoven. I hope you enjoy it. Bye-bye.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
No, I mean, this is not a dynamic that we have to worry about on The Rest Is History, is it? Yeah, so we wanted to open with a kind of a tipping of the hat to Amadeus, because here we are in the Royal Albert Hall, one of the great music festival centres in the whole world. And so we thought that Mozart and Beethoven would be absolutely ideal themes, because...
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
they are probably the most celebrated, the most iconic composers in the whole history of music. But I think, as Oliver hinted, they're not just iconic, they are also the embodiments of a particular moment in cultural history. So the key thing about Amadeus is that people sitting down to watch this film, they know that Mozart is a genius. If they don't know that, then the film doesn't work.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And the sweep of history that is covered by the lives first of Mozart and then of Beethoven, it witnesses the onset of the French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, the rise of the Romantic movement. And, Dominic, this is the period that... kind of enshrines the idea that an artist can be a genius, isn't it?
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And, Dominic, I think we should say that that joke is made up by our beloved producer, Theo.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
He is born in 1756 in Salzburg, Austria, which is part of the Holy Roman Empire, ruled by, I guess they're friends of the show, aren't they, the Habsburgs? Definitely friends of the show. Very much so. And so he's born into a Europe that is becoming ever more obsessed by music. But if it's an era that loves and values music, it's not a period that necessarily loves and values musicians.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And if you think of the one other great 18th century composer who can kind of stand on the podium beside Mozart, Johann Sebastian Bach, he spends his whole life as an employee. He's not a genius. He's essentially a kind of salaried servant. And in fact, when he tried to leave the employ of one of his masters, the Duke of Weimar, the Duke responded by locking him up in prison.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So there is no room for playing the genius in the first half of the 18th century. There are, however, growing opportunities to perhaps make money under your own steam. And the person who exemplifies this is a fellow German,
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
of Bach's, but rather than staying in Germany as Bach did, this guy, Handel, comes to the richest, the most culturally significant city in Europe, the great El Dorado of music, and that city, I'm proud to say, is London. Hurrah. So Handel comes to London, and he makes such a success of it that he ends up fabulously rich, and he even has a tomb in Westminster Abbey.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So there you have a kind of tension between the musician as servant and the musician as entrepreneur. And the father of Mozart, Leopold, who will play a key role in our story, he kind of has feet in both camps. So on the one hand, he is a violinist in the service of the Archbishop of Salzburg. He's essentially kind of one rung up from a footman.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
But at the same time, he has a kind of secret brooding contempt for aristocratic and indeed arch-episcopal employers. And as time will show, he has a brilliant, brilliant future as an impresario. And the reason for that is that his son, Wolfgang Amadeus, turns out to be a genius. And Dominic, I think your son, Sandbrook Junior, is here tonight. Is it he? Yes, he is.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And am I not right in thinking you mentioned to me that he won a regional poetry reading competition with the Charge of the Light Brigade?
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So if you had shown a fraction of the entrepreneurial zeal of Leopold Mozart, you could have made an absolute packet by taking Arthur around poetry competitions across the length and breadth of the city, of the country. Now, I don't know when Arthur started reciting Tennyson, but young Mozart, his musical career supposedly begins very, very young.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
So it is said that at the age of two, he's picking tunes out on a keyboard. At the age of four, he composes his first concerto. And at the age of six, he goes to the imperial court in Vienna, where he meets the Habsburg royal family. Oh, and we've talked about that in the French Revolution series. So that's when he meets Marie Antoinette. She's very young, isn't she?
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Yeah, she's just a little girl at this point. And little baby Mozart, he climbs up onto the lap of Marie Antoinette's mother, the Empress Maria Theresa, gives her a big hug, gives her a little kiss. It's all absolutely adorable. And Leopold is watching this, and he goes, ka-ching. We have got a gold mine here. And so he gets permission from his employer, the archbishop, to go on tour.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And they go to all the cities of the Holy Roman Empire. They go to Paris. They go to London. They go to Versailles. And of course, they end up in London. And they have a brilliant time here, I'm happy to say. They meet the king and queen. They hang out in Soho. Leopold becomes so kind of habituated to London life that he catches a very British ailment, which he notes in his journal.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
The English call it a cold, so he has a terrible cold. And it's absolutely brilliant. They make absolute packet. And they're not actually generally paid in cash, although there is a bit of cash. It's generally kind of knick-knacks and giggles, so endless snuffbox, silver watches, that kind of thing.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And one of the markers of how well Leopold is doing is that he can actually complain, having eaten four roast chickens on the trot, that he is still hungry.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
Right. Well, you should have thought, you know, if you'd taken Arthur and pushed him in the way that Leopold did, you could have had as much roast chicken as you wanted for the rest of your life. So the whole reason that the young Mozart makes Leopold such money is the fact that he is seen by the whole of Europe as being something completely exceptional.
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526. Mozart: History's Greatest Prodigy LIVE at the Royal Albert Hall
And so because he is the talk of Europe, people across the continent are saying, You know, what's going on here? Where has this extraordinary, precocious talent come from? And there are various theories, and they're not mutually contradictory, but I guess this is a very devout religious age.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So there's a slight element in which he's Tiberius as well as Augustus. And it works brilliantly because, of course, the power of the Caesars is founded on muscle, on intimidation. And if you think of Augustus as a kind of godfather figure... with a family. I mean, that maps on very well onto what's happening with the Sopranos.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And then the Sopranos in turn, of course, influences Game of Thrones or whatever. And although Game of Thrones is clearly drawing on specific episodes in medieval history, the overarching idea of A wrestling for power with poison and incest and dynastic feuding. Again, the wellsprings for this, I think, are I, Claudius.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
I always wondered, so that Jack Gleeson, the actor who played Joffrey, the kind of Caligula type king. Yeah. I mean, he looks like Caligula. Have you ever seen the kind of portrait bust of Caligula? I always wondered whether that was kind of deliberate.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But even if it didn't happen, it's telling that that story should have been told about him. It seems appropriate and fitting.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. And again, it's why Augustus is the exemplar. So Augustus, in a way, is the kind of centre of the collection of biographies. It's by far the longest, the most sophisticated, the most complex of the biographies. And one of the ways in which it sets the template is that, as you said, Augustus is the model of how to be a Caesar because he is also the model of how to be an actor.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And his ability to play all the roles that Caesar has to play is kind of portrayed by Suetonius as being key to his success. So this is evident in, well, kind of in the range of names that he has throughout his life. So he begins as Gaius Octavius. Then he's adopted as Julius Caesar's heir. So he becomes Julius Caesar. Then he's given the name Augustus.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Suetonius tells us that when he stamps official documents, Augustus uses a seal that is decorated with a sphinx, so very practiced at telling riddles. And over the course of his life, he picks up masks and then lays them down as circumstances require. So as a young man, It's his mission to avenge his murdered adoptive father, Julius Caesar. And he consciously practices terrorism to do that.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He makes his name one that would chill even the highest ranking noblemen in Rome. So Suetonius describes one incident. It is claimed by some authors that on the Ides of March – so that's the anniversary of Caesar's murder – He selected 300 senators and knights from among those who had surrendered and had them butchered like sacrificial animals on an altar dedicated to Julius Caesar.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So Suetonius is upfront about that, even though he greatly admires Augustus. But ultimately, the reason that he admires Augustus isn't because he is a kind of murderous vigilante wiping out the assassins of his adoptive father, but because having done that, he gives the Roman people what they have not had for many decades, namely peace.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He lives so long that he comes to serve the Romans as their father. Suetonius sees this as an achievement that is genuinely, literally more than human. The word Augustus means more than human, kind of halfway to the divine. When he comes to the end of his biography, Suetonius writes,
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Perhaps it will not be off topic to include here an account of everything that happened prior to his birth, Augustus' birth, on the actual day of his nativity and then subsequent to it, which served to portend his future greatness and to offer the hope of good fortune without end. And it's in the reign of Augustus that Jesus is born.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And the echo of the stories that are told by Christians about the nativity of Jesus and about the prophecies that were told about his coming are very, very redolent of the stories that Suetonius gives about the birth of of Augustus.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And I think it's a crucial part of the biographies that even though you are getting details about urination and farts and all that kind of stuff, you are also getting a sense that this extraordinary drama, these extraordinary lives exist in the context of the supernatural. When Julius Caesar crosses the Rubicon, a mysterious spirit blows a trumpet.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
The ghost of Caesar is seen on kind of lonely paths. Omens and portents shadow the lives of the Caesars right the way through. And that too is a part of the story. And that's what makes Augustus' achievement as an actor who stands on the stage of the world. He's also standing on the stage of the heavens and his death will become a god.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Absolutely. It highlights something that makes the Caesars distinctive among the autocrats of antiquity, which is that they are expected to put themselves up before the mass of the people. They are expected to stage entertainments and shows and gladiatorial combats, which means that if they are unpopular, they will be booed. It's a constant process of testing your popularity and
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And that, I think, is why Suetonius is so interested in things like gladiatorial combats, the details of beast hunts and things like that. It's not just the show itself. It's the fact that being able to put on a show, it's a crucial part of what it is to be a good emperor.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Yeah.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. So as you say, I think Augustus is at the heart of it. And then the emperors who belong to his family, the house of Caesar, they're kind of the next ring. And then on the outer ring, you have the biographies of figures who provide a different perspective on the course of Roman history.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So if you look backwards from Augustus, you have the first of the 12 Caesars, who, as you said, isn't an emperor at all, and that's Julius Caesar. And that serves as a reminder to the reader that there is a world... that is less claustrophobic than that of the autocracy introduced by Augustus. Caesar is operating in a republic.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
With the lives of the emperors, there's the sense that the emperor is at the heart of the state. Julius Caesar is a man of incredible accomplishment, but he is just one of a multitude of power players.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
in the drama of his age. Suetonius judges him by the standards of that age. He really admires Julius Caesar. He recognises that Caesar is an extraordinary genius, a great general, a great orator, a great writer. He's brilliant at urban planning. Drawing up calendars, there's almost nothing he can't do. Also, he's a man of great mercy. He pardons his defeated enemies.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But in the build-up to his account of the murder of Caesar in the Ides of March, he judges the reckoning must still be that Caesar abused his position of power and deserved to be slain. So that's the kind of fascinating perspective that the reader can then take into the lives of the subsequent Caesars.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Given that they're autocrats, Julius Caesar kind of wasn't. Right. Exactly. So that's one thing that frames the life of Augustus and the emperors who belonged to the house of Caesar. But then the other thing is what succeeds him. So when Nero dies, he's succeeded by this guy called Galba, who, like Julius Caesar, is a man from a kind of ancient Republican dynasty.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He's a reminder of an age that preceded the coming to power of Augustus. But the thing is, he has no conceivable link to the divine family of the first emperor. He sees his power because he has the armies and the backing that enable him to do it. And it's because of that that he doesn't really have sufficient authority to maintain his rule and therefore his life.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
As a Caesar, if you're unable to rule, then you're going to die. So Galbraith is succeeded by Otho, by Vitellius, by Vespasian. Vespasian survives, founds this dynasty, succeeded by his sons Titus and Domitian. And you have six biographies following Nero in all.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And I think all of these, in comparison to the biographies of the emperors who are succeeding Augustus, they kind of feel a bit slight, a bit attenuated. And these emperors are less terrible than Caligula or Nero, but they're also kind of less awesome. So the family of Augustus, the family of Julius Caesar, They claim descent from Venus, the goddess Venus.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
The house of Vespasian, they have descent from a bailiff. And that essentially is telling you about the diminished character of the age. The sense that an emperor is properly part of a kind of almost a mythological world has pretty much gone. And when Domitian dies, Domitian is assassinated.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And he's not assassinated as Caesar was by his peers, by his senators, but by Friedman in a kind of squalid scuffle in the palace. His memory is completely erased. Except, of course, it isn't a race because Suetonius is telling us this in his biography. But he ends Domitian's biography and therefore all the lives of the Caesars with this passage.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Even Domitian himself, they say, when he dreamed that a hump of gold sprouted out of his back, interpreted this as a sure sign that the Republic was destined to enjoy happier and more prosperous times once he had gone. And sure enough, thanks to the measured and moderate behavior displayed by the emperors who followed him, so it rapidly came to pass.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So here is a further sense in which the terrifying age of crime and bloodshed and sexual extravagance is fading away because Suetonius is situating himself in an age of measured and moderate emperors. This is the age in which he is writing.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah, I think it's rare, it's precious, and it's fascinating because it kind of highlights, I suppose, two things. Firstly, Suetonius' methods. So this is in the context of a debate that Suetonius is having with kind of unnamed critics about whether the name Therianus had been one of the names adopted by Augustus. Suetonius thinks it was, his critics think that it wasn't.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And he's offering the fact that this bust existed with the word Therianus on it as evidence. And it demonstrates the way in which Suetonius is a proper scholar. He does his research. He compiles evidence. But it's also fascinating because it illustrates that he knows what he's talking about.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
when he discusses the Caesars and the court of the Caesars, because he is clearly very close to the emperor. If he can give to Hadrian, you know, a portrait bust that he's found, that suggests a real degree of intimacy and it's,
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
evident, both from Suetonius' biographies, but also from all the evidence that we have from the Roman world, that power in antiquity, in the Roman Empire, depends on proximity to Caesar. Suetonius clearly has that. He is a man who's operating at the absolute heart of the imperial administration. He knows what he is talking about.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So there are other details that are scattered through the lives of the Caesars. So we know that his grandfather had watched Caligula when he built the great bridge of boats and rode across the Bay of Naples to and fro on a chariot. We know that his father had been with Otho in the civil war, that Otho had fought against Vitellius, his army gets defeated, Otho commits suicide.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Suetonius' father had been in Otho's camp when that happened. And he personally bears witness to the campaign of taxation that Domitian and the Flavians generally, the family of Domitian, had conducted against the Judeans.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So Vespasian and Titus had conquered Judea and had then imposed a tax on the Judeans which required them to pay money that had previously gone to the temple in Jerusalem to the restoration of the temple of Jupiter in the heart of Rome. Of course, there were Judeans who tried to get out of this. Suetonius describes Domitian's determination not to let these tax evaders get away with it.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And he writes, he gave no quarter to those who pretended not to be Judean in an attempt to avoid paying the tribute levied on their nation. Indeed, and this is the personal note, I remember as a young man being present in a very crowded court when an old man who was 90 years old had his penis inspected by a financial official to see if he had been circumcised.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Isn't it? I mean, incredible detail. to have, kind of very vivid and strange.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
That seems to be the implication of an inscription that was found in 1952 in the ruins of a city called Hippo Regius. So that's actually the city which, in due course, Saint Augustine would become the bishop of. And it suggests that Suetonius' family had originally come from there.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But I mean, if so, there's no evidence really of any kind of particular stake in North Africa from Suetonius' writing. His focus is very much on Italy and Rome. And that seems to be where he grew up. And we also know from the letters of Pliny the Younger, the guy who gives us two brilliant accounts of the eruption of Vesuvius that destroys Pompeii and Herculaneum.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
that Suetonius is part of Pliny the Younger's set. It's a literary set. It's a set in which Pliny the Younger will advance able, younger people like Suetonius who could benefit from his patronage. We know actually that Pliny the Younger seems to have obtained a post for Suetonius in Britain, which Suetonius then turned down. There is an intriguing detail
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
that in 1973 in Vindolanda, so the fort just south of what would become Hadrian's Wall, there was a letter found there detailing the contents of a trunk that had been sent by someone called Tranquilus. And that, of course, is one of Suetonius' names. And the great scholar Anthony Burley, who had actually excavated at Vindolanda, He kind of pondered whether this had actually been Suetonius' kit.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So he wrote, is it possible that Suetonius had had a box of his gear, including blankets, dining outfits and vests, sent ahead to Britain? I mean, it'd be wonderful to think that he had.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. So first the Imperial Archives, then the Roman libraries. And then under Hadrian, he becomes what was called the Ab Epistulus, which essentially is his kind of senior secretary, the guy who handles his correspondence. And that means that there is no letter that comes to Hadrian or goes from Hadrian that Suetonius has not handled.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And it means that for the term of his office, he is one of the most important functionaries in the whole of the empire. And this must explain his ready access to all the historical documents that he is citing in the biographies.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And he probably obtained this not from Pliny the Younger, because by this point Pliny seems to have died, but by another patron who's a guy called Septitius Clarus, who is the dedicatee of the lives of the Caesars. And who has become the chief of the Praetorians. So probably the most significant imperial servant in the whole of the empire because he's responsible for the emperor's security.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yes, of course, because Hadrian is traveling and so the court goes with him. Right. So both the captain of the Praetorians and the chief secretary, they all have to go.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
No, they seem to have been involved in some mysterious way in a kind of sex scandal. So there's a later life of Hadrian that says that they had at that time behaved in the company of Hadrian's wife Sabina in their association with her in a more informal manner than respect for a court household demanded. Right.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So unclear, but I mean, it clearly highlights for Suetonius the fact that getting on the wrong side of an emperor and his wife and being embroiled in their intimate relationship is not a good thing. Well, it can't have been that bad a scandal because they're not executed. No, but he's dismissed. And so he seems to retire to his villa. And basically that's the last we know of him.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But presumably he uses his time to maybe write the lives of the Caesars.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And so... There's not a huge amount to go on there, but there's enough, I think, to make you kind of see the attitudes that he seems to have brought to the writing of these biographies. So he's a scholar. He has a kind of very deep kind of interest in a broad range of subjects. He has a lack of military experience.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He doesn't seem to have served with the army and his knowledge of military affairs and the lives isn't brilliant. Clearly very familiar with libraries and archives. He understands how power works at the heart of the Roman state, and he knows what it is to be the victim of the anger of a Caesar.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And of course, as we said, he knows that sex is something that can be weaponized, that can be kind of exploited and turned against people.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He has an almost kind of anthropological interest in sex that I think is quite unusual. But Suetonius is interested in all kinds of subjects like that. So although Lives of the Caesar, it's not actually complete. We're missing the beginning of the life of Julius Caesar, but it's pretty much intact.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
We have fragments of a few others of works, but we have a list of all the subjects that Suetonius tackled. And they're incredibly eclectic. So he writes a series of lives of the great courtesans, for instance. So that is a reflection, obviously, of his interest in sex.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But he also writes about children's games, about the character of insults, about different styles of dress, about public spectacles. And these are all themes that are evident in his Lives of the Caesars. And I think that that is because he assumes that there's no aspect of his subjects' lives so insignificant that it doesn't shed light on their nature.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And also that how an emperor relates, say, to public spectacles or to dress or whatever, or to sex, that this situates him within the broader cultural context of Rome, that it highlights a man's moral character. And the Romans are a very moral people. And Suetonius is actually, despite his prurient reputation, is a very moral writer. When he approves of behavior, he says so.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And when he disapproves of it, he really lets you know.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yes. So if you have a craving for privacy, it is assumed the only reason that you have that is because you were getting up to disgusting things. Yes. You are a sexual pervert. That's why you would want to lead your life privately. At the same time, people are always studying how people conduct themselves sexually in public to look for signs, again, of moral degeneracy.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
It means that every Roman has to tread a real tightrope between making it seem that he has something to hide and and displaying behaviour that might make him the object of venomous gossip. If this is a challenge for the average Roman, then of course it's even more of a challenge for a Caesar, because how he presents himself to the world
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
is kind of fundamental to how he will be understood by the world.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
We'll be exploring those questions in the episodes we're going to do on Tiberius and then Caligula. And the thing that's, I think, very interesting about those two men and why they make such good paired biographies is that in a way they illustrate the two extremes of... how the Romans would identify sexual depravity. Tiberius is a man who ends up retiring to Capri. It's an island. He's isolated.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
It is assumed, I think, for entirely understandable reasons once you understand how the Romans judged a great man's craving for privacy. that if he's on this island and he stays there for years, he must be getting up to no good. And from that, it's a very easy development to start imagining what he's been getting up to on his island. What's the worst he could be doing? He's probably doing that.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Thanks, Dominic. It is. And I believe it's available for pre-order. So everyone fill your boots.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And Caligula, of course, is the opposite extreme because even more than Nero, he is an emperor who's supposed to have made a point of kind of parading his deviancies and positively exalting in them.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So this is a man who, according to Suetonius, sleeps with one of his sisters, pimps the others out, dresses up as a woman, completely shocking behaviour for a Roman, goes to banquets and appraises the wives of his guests as though they're slaves. And so again, this is shocking and It's either meant to be shocking, i.e.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Caligula is intending it, or it's expressive of attitudes to Caligula that may have deeper roots. Again, we'll explore that when we come to the life of Caligula.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But the fact that gossip is being reported of these emperors, the gossip itself may not be true, but the fact that the gossip is being reported does tell you quite a lot, maybe about the emperors, but definitely about the cultural context in which those emperors are functioning, I think.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So the lives of the Caesars, as you said, I mean, they are probably along with the biographies written by Plutarch, the most celebrated of all the biographies that we've received from the ancient world. And these, I think, are... Without doubt, the most glamorous, the most scabrous, occasionally the most shocking.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
We touched on this in the episode we did on Hadrian and Antinous, actually. But just to reiterate... The notion of there being heterosexual and homosexual conditions, instincts, inclinations, this is a modern categorization. The Romans certainly had no sense of that whatsoever. Of course, Suetonius may note that one emperor's tastes runs exclusively to women and another's runs exclusively to men.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But he doesn't attach any kind of moral significance to it. He doesn't see it as fundamental to the identity of an emperor. It's an interesting incidental detail. So Suetonius says of Claudius, he notes, he never slept with men, although his appetites when it came to women were voracious. And then of Galba, he says he preferred sex with males, although only with fully grown, well-muscled ones.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And it's as though Suetonius is describing a preference that a man might have for blonde women or for brunettes. It's on that level. It's not fundamental to their identity. And so that makes the kind of the sexual landscape that you see in Suetonius' lives, I think, very strange to us. And what makes it even stranger, and I think pretty unsettling,
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
is that the sexual order that Suetonius is taking for granted in his biographies is founded on an assumption that all Romans take for granted, namely a man in a position of power, so not just an emperor, but a free male Roman citizen, is not just entitled, but expected to exploit his inferiors in a sexual manner as he pleases. And obviously that is an absolute taboo to us. Yeah.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
You know, that is Harvey Weinstein behavior.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Is that right? Right. Because that then reduces him in the eyes of kind of Roman convention to the level of a woman or a slave, which in the opinion of Roman men... is by definition to be inferior.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
That's why of all the mud that can stick to a Roman's reputation, and there's a lot of mud being thrown around, absolutely the worst, the most damaging, the one that is hardest to scrub clean, is a charge that he has allowed himself to be used sexually like a woman. This is the single most damaging charge.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And as you said, they describe the lives of 12 Caesars, and they range from the life of Julius Caesar, who was born in 100 BC, up to the Emperor Domitian, who died in AD 96. So... That's covering two centuries, probably the most dramatic, the most spectacular two centuries in all of Roman history. And these are rulers who, in succession, were the most powerful men in the Roman Empire.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And it's really vividly illustrated by a kind of almost a throwaway anecdote in the life of Domitian where Suetonius is describing the aftermath of a failed coup that Domitian has defeated. And in the wake of this, he's determined to smoke out all the conspirators. You know, he's in a mood for vengeance. And so he puts his known opponents, people he knows have been hostile to him, to torture.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And Suetonius gives a horrible description of it. This he did by jabbing burning splints into their genitals, a form of interrogation Suetonius notes never practiced before. And of all the prominent people he accuses of having been involved in the conspiracy, He pardons only two. One of them is a senator who had been serving as a tribune, and one of them is a centurion.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Suetonius gives us the reason. These two men, to demonstrate all the more conclusively that they had taken no part in the conspiracy, provided evidence that they liked to be used sexually as women, and therefore were viewed as undeserving of attention, both by the man in command of them and by the soldiers under their own command.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
In other words, they couldn't possibly have been part of a conspiracy because they're so debased. so effeminate, so unmanned that they have this sexual taste and it's taken for granted and they get off scot-free.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. And this accusation follows him throughout his life. And even after he's conquered Gaul and defeated Pompey and made himself the master of the Roman world, people are still sniggering about it behind his back. What about that business with the King of Bithynia, eh? Yeah.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So Suetonius specifically says that this was a lingering scandal and one serious enough to provide material for endless taunts. And Caesar, of course, is a guy, I mean, he's endlessly sleeping around. He's committing adultery left, right and centre, but nobody cares about that. It's this one supposed kind of fling.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. And I think that this, it's so strange to us. It seems so alien to us, but the very alien quality of it focuses, I think, what is most fascinating about Suetonius' biographies and actually by extension, Rome itself, which is this kind of unsettling, fascinating fusion of the very alien and the very intimate. So on one level, this is a world
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
of kind of a sexual morality that is completely terrifying, I think, to us. It's a world in which one Caesar, so Nero, is described by Suetonius as dressing up as a wild animal and then falling upon the genitals of men and women who had been fastened to stakes. I mean, it's so odd.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And then you have his description of Domitian sitting alone in a room doing nothing but catching flies and stabbing them with a well-sharpened pen. Okay. So very dark, macabre, fantastical images. But then at the same time, you also have these unbelievably personal details. So he tells us Augustus had small yellow teeth and they had gaps between them. Tiberius has a mullet. Yeah.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Oh man, I can't believe that. Otho has splayed feet, wears a toupee. Vespasian, we're told, has an expression like a man straining for a shit. It's that degree of kind of personal detail and after strangeness that makes these stories, I just think, brilliant.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So we're at the heart of power.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
We'll be exploring that in our next episode. And he is then succeeded by Caligula. Mad. Yeah. We'll be doing an episode on him. Yeah. Claudius, we'll be doing an episode on him. And then Nero, who we've just been hearing about. With Nero's death, the family of Augustus comes to an end. You then have a year of bloodshed and civil war, AD 69, when four emperors in succession rule.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So that is Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. And again, Suetonius describes the lives of all four men. It's Vespasian who establishes himself as emperor. He establishes a new dynasty and is succeeded by his two sons in turn. So first Titus, and then Domitian. And we begin, Julius Caesar, as you said, is born into a Rome that is still a republic.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And Domitian is an emperor who demands that the Romans call him Dominus, master. So that is essentially kind of the evolution from a republican system to a much more autocratic system.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Or Caesar crossing the Rubicon, or Caesar being murdered. And in fact, the assassination of Caligula in his own palace, the murder of Vitellius in AD 69, I mean, kind of being sliced up like sashimi on the steps leading up from the Forum to the Capitol. He's completely fascinated by how emperors meet their deaths.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But important to emphasise as well that he's fascinated essentially in pretty much everything. I mean, there is... there is almost no detail that he doesn't explore. So we see the Caesars, rather as we might kind of contemporary politicians in a political context. So we see them wrestling with, I don't know, PR scandals or funding shortfalls or foreign policy crises. And we're shown
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
their tastes, their foibles, the eccentricities that they indulge in. And we see them eat, we see them drink, we see them get married, we see them get divorced, we see them make jokes, take exercise or not take exercise, urinate, laugh at someone breaking wind, tying up their sandals. I mean, all these kind of details. And I think that...
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
It's not just that it brings the Caesars alive, but it brings ancient Rome alive.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah. And so it's often kind of assumed that our interest in ancient Rome over and above, say, that of Egypt or Persia or whatever, is maybe because of Eurocentrism or whatever. But I truly think that it is simply because these rulers live more vividly than any other rulers in antiquity. And this is largely down to Suetonius. And You said that Suetonius is interested in violence.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He is also, of course, massively interested in sex. I would say that probably of all the things that Suetonius is known for, that is what he is probably, well, I mean, you might say almost most notorious for. And the details that you get about the sex lives of the Caesars, I mean, it was capable of making the Romans themselves slightly go pale.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
So we have a poem that was written in the late fourth century, admittedly a time when the Roman elites were starting to become Christian. And this is by the poet Claudian. And he wrote about the early Caesars, the Caesars recorded in Suetonius' biographies. And he wrote, the stains of the crimes committed by the men of old, so that's the first Caesars, the 12 Caesars, will endure for all time.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Condemnation will never be lacking of the monstrous deeds perpetrated by the house of Caesar, Nero's unspeakable depravities and those vile cliffs of Capri and the lair of an aged pervert. And that aged pervert, as you suggested already, is Tiberius, who retires there and gets up to supposedly unspeakable things.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And of course, we have mentioned Suetonius quite recently because we did a series on Charlemagne and Einhard, the great biographer of Charlemagne, is very influenced by Suetonius and models his biography of Charlemagne on that of Augustus. So there's the sense in the Middle Ages that if you want to learn about how to exercise power, you do go to Suetonius, you read these biographies.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But in the Middle Ages as well, there are people who are reading these lives to be titillated and shocked by as well as to be inspired. The most notorious example of someone who is influenced by what he reads in Suetonius to a repellent degree is a figure called Gilles de Rais, who in the 15th century is fighting the English in the Hundred Years' War, actually alongside Joan of Arc, it said.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
He has read Suetonius And he reads about all these hideous crimes that Tiberius is supposed to have perpetrated against young children and ends up becoming a child killer and is hanged for this in 1440. And that's a kind of reflection of the kind of strange ambivalence of Suetonius' reputation. He's writing models for kings, but he's simultaneously inspiring unspeakable crimes.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And this is a tension that runs throughout the Renaissance when he's... huge business. So you will get medallions, pictures, portraits, coins of the 12 Caesars throughout the Renaissance going into the Enlightenment. But at the same time, if you think of the Enlightenment, we did an episode on the Marquis de Sade. The Marquis de Sade, of course, has a copy of Suetonius in his library.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
And Dominic, we also did a series on public schools in the Victorian period. We did indeed. And the thing that I've always thought is mad about that is that Suetonius is a school text for schoolboys at rugby under the muscularly Christian Dr. Arnold. Yes. These boys are being given texts of Suetonius where the more dirty passages has asterisks.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But of course, if they end up reading Latin very fluently, their privilege is that they can go and get the full Latin copy and read these disgusting accounts. So essentially, Dr. Arnold is training them to... to read about beastliness.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Suetonius contains probably the most revolting passages in the whole of ancient literature. I would say the single most revolting sentence. Stuff that we don't want to repeat on this podcast. But having said that, I would say that obviously today, throughout the 20th century in fact, we've tended to pride ourselves on not being prudish in a kind of Victorian manner. We don't put in the asterisks.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
I mean, I haven't in this translation. And there's a sense in which the themes of sex and violence in Suetonius have kind of come into their own in popular culture in the 20th century. And that's highlighted by the identity of the man who translated the previous edition of Suetonius' Lives for Penguin Classics, who's none other than Robert Graves. So the author of I, Claudius. Yes.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
You have the figure of Augustus, who's the kind of patriarch. You have a murderous competition to succeed him. In the figure of Livia, Augustus's wife, as reworked by Robert Graves, you have the ultimate homicidal matriarch. And you have Claudius who survives the terrifying reigns of Tiberius and Caligula, and it ends with him as emperor. So he seems to be triumphant.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
But in the final pages of the novel and the final episode of the series, you have the encroaching shadow of the reign of Nero as it comes. And there are so many elements of that that then feeds into TV drama through the 80s and later. So in the United States, the soap opera Dynasty with Joan Collins.
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Yeah, lots of shoulder pads and kind of lip gloss. It's all set in, I think, in Denver, isn't it? Yeah. Very clearly modelled on iClaudius. But then in the late 90s, going into the early 21st century, there's a series that is even more influential and even more obviously influenced by iClaudius, very overtly so, in fact, and that's The Sopranos. So there is an episode in which the
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534. Emperors of Rome: Sex Secrets of the Caesars (Part 1)
Tony Soprano sits on the bleachers at a baseball game and discusses Augustus and says of his reign, it was the longest time of peace in Rome's history. He was a fair leader and all his people loved him for that. Yeah, he identifies with him, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. Although actually, Tony Soprano's mother is called Livia, as Tiberius's was.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And because they've lost control, it means that in lands beyond their own heartlands, other figures, the dukes, the counts, whoever, they are starting now to build fortifications because the king is not in a position to stop them. And If you think of France as rotting wood, these fortifications are like fungi, like mushrooms sprouting up out of the wood. These are strange, unsettling structures.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
No one's ever seen anything quite like them before. These are structures that in French will come to be called châteaux. and in English, castles. The greatest castle builder of his generation is Faulknera. Castles are the basis of his power and his expansionism. It reflects a very cold-eyed insight, which is that you can use castles not just for defence, but for attack.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah. So, I mean, essentially you can plant it in enemy territory and And you put it on a crag or whatever, a cliff. And if you can't find a crag or a cliff, then you can build a great mound of earth that comes to be called a mot. But essentially, you're seizing territory that previously had had no value at all.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But now it enables you to be proactive because you can build a very rough castle out of wood. It can be incredibly rudimentary. We're not talking great towers of stone or anything like that.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But because people are not used to the idea of fortifications suddenly sprouting up, it has an outsized effect on the ability of those who control these structures to then impose themselves and intimidate people who are all around them. And once you've done that, once you've used these kind of makeshift structures, these castles, to grab an area of territory.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And if you keep it, then of course, in time, you can, I don't know, rebuild them in stone or whatever. And this is what Faulknera has been doing. And so the result is that, you know, he's been in power for decades and decades and decades. By the 1030s, Anjou has come to be shielded all along its frontiers by...
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
kind of great donjons built on their crags, built on their moths, and they're essentially impregnable. And it means, therefore, that Anjou itself is impregnable.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Of course, because it's a military revolution that is also a social revolution. So it is creating an entire new class of people. Because these castles, obviously, to be effective... They have to be held by warriors who are very well armed, probably who have armor, you know, chain mail, and they have to be mobile.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Because if you're using the castle as a base, then you need to be able to sweep across the surrounding territory and intimidate anyone there, which effectively means that you need horses. And how are you going to pay for this? How are you going to pay for the horses, the armour, the swords and whatever, the lances?
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
The answer, obviously, is you're going to do it mafia-style by extorting cash out of those who don't have horses and armour, which effectively means the local peasantry. Up until the 11th century in France, peasantry essentially had been scattered. but now they get kind of herded like sheep or cattle into pens. And these pens are what come to be called villages.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So the emergence of the castle also sees the emergence of the village. And it's, I suppose, the kind of the classic image that people would have of the Middle Ages, of a great castle and peasants and villages clustered around the castle. This is where that kind of image is originating. To contemporaries who are living through this,
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
It's a completely shocking, unsettling, terrifying experience because suddenly you're getting these gangs of male-clad thugs galloping across territory where previously there hadn't been such figures to menace and intimidate. And clerks and clerics and monks, they don't know what to call them.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But gradually, the word that they start to use to describe these figures, these kind of heavies on their horses, because they're horses, they come to be called chevalier, so people who ride a cheval, a horse. And in English, these figures will come to be called knigts, knights. So we've got the castles, we've got the village, we've got the knight. It's all kicking off.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah, absolutely. And there is an illustration of this, of course, in Southern Italy, because this is exactly the process that's been happening. Because there isn't a centralized power there, because you have all these rival empires who are competing for these mercenaries, these Norman knights on their... on their horses with their mail and their armor and their spears.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah, kind of dread for reasons that Amartya spells out because he says that the Normans are physically hardy, very tough, very strong. So Amartya writes in Latin, but the version we have is translated into French.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
There is a massive opportunity for these mercenaries then to build castles there. That's what they're doing. That is how they seize their fiefdoms. You know, you can grab a crag or whatever, as Fulcnera had been doing in Anjou and do it in Southern Italy. And you've got, you know, perfect base for practicing kind of terrorism, essentially, kind of the mafia law.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And all you need really is a horse and armor. and arms. The question is, of course, if that can happen in Southern Italy, then why not in Normandy itself? If there is not a strong duke, then there will be no one to stop people back in the Norman homeland from doing exactly what they're doing in Southern Italy.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah, it's at the height of irresponsibility for reasons that we touched on at the end of the last episode. But just to recap... The succession in Normandy is rocky. Robert does have a son, this boy, seven years old, called William. And in fact, before he left on pilgrimage, he had officially nominated this boy as his heir, and he had won the sanction for doing this of the King of France.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But, you know, this boy, to reiterate, is seven years old. And as we discussed in the previous episode, he is also illegitimate. I mean, that's not a killer blow, but it doesn't help. And so should anything happen to Robert on his pilgrimage, then the potential for disaster is absolutely enormous, as it would have been at any point in the Dukedom's history.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But particularly now you have this military revolution with the potential, as you've been saying, for kind of breakdown and anarchy. Yeah. But, you know, things seem to be going well. Robert has dazzled Constantinople and very satisfyingly, Faulknera has been on pilgrimage as well. Faulknera is a great one for going on pilgrimage to Jerusalem. I think he does it five times.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And he specifies that the Normans have a lust for seigneury, so lordship, and that they have a particular aptitude for chevalerie, so fighting on horseback, what will in due course come to be the attribute of a knight, chivalry. But basically, they're going around on horses, kind of nicking other people's land and property.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
He's there and Robert massively puts him in the shade. So that's great for Robert. Goes to Jerusalem, again cuts a tremendous dash, sets off back home. And by late June 1035, he is approaching Constantinople. But then, before he can cross the Bosphorus, disaster. Oh no! He falls sick. He is taken to the city of Nicaea, on the south of the Straits.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And there, at the beginning of July, Robert the Magnificent, Duke of Normandy, dies. We mentioned how Fulton Arrow is on pilgrimage and has been put in the shade by this guy who's his great rival. I mean, There are rumours and reports that perhaps it's poison.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah, exactly. And my gold-shot mules. Exactly. I think a wonderful way to end this half would be for me to read from Millennium, my book on this very subject. I mean, I can't read.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
The Count of Anjou, whose princeton was separated from Normandy only by a single makeshift buffer, the unfortunate County of Maine, had long been angling to roll back Norman power. Now, with Robert dead, such a goal appeared eminently achievable. William the new Duke was only eight years old. Normandy had effectively been decapitated.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Because I like a ruthless... Yeah, I mean, ultimately a kindly man. I mean, I think there is something of Cromwell about William the Conqueror. Do you? Yeah. He's a man of austere piety and given to brutal invasions of his neighbours.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Well, as we will see, because the news comes back to Normandy that he is now the Duke and he is really staring down the barrel. So as we said, he's called by his enemies, particularly Anjou, William the Bastard. And I guess you could say he's a bastard in every sense of the Very good.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And also, of course, he's very impressed by their wanderlust, this sense that they're spilling out across the world and that their goal is a kind of greatness, that they're not prepared to serve other people. And Amartya is speaking from experience. So he is a monk in Monte Cassino, the great abbey in central Italy, which we last heard of in the podcast because Wojtek The bear, the Polish bear.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So it is said that his mother was the daughter of a man who had prepared the dead for burial or an alternative story. He was a tanner or perhaps he was both. But either way, you know, he is working with the dead. So he is seen as being a man polluted by water.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
rottenness and filth and this is a very damaging charge because it implies that william although of noble descent on his father's side on his mother's side is shot through with baseness and the the thinking is that robert by by taking to bed the daughter of a corpse handler yeah has absolutely as you would say, Dominic, bred a monster. Right, yeah.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And that this young Duke, if he is allowed to grow to adulthood, he will be fated to serve as the shroud winder, not of the dead, but of entire kingdoms. I mean, the people who say that are not wrong. Well, maybe. But to be honest, the Normans themselves don't really care about William's parentage, partly because actually his grandfather wasn't an undertaker or a tanner.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
He was actually an official in the Ducal Court. So this was all kind of malevolent anti-Norman propaganda. And also it's because I think that they remain sufficiently Viking that they're They're not too worried about the issue of wives and concubines and things like that.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
They don't care about petty morals. Well, it is observed by the monk Rudolf Graeber, who is a brilliant source for this whole period. It has always been their custom for as long as they've been settled in France to take as their princes the offspring of concubines. So I guess you could kind of maybe say that the Rolling Stones, I don't know. Yeah, I think you probably could.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And people may remember that there was this kind of similar issue with Canute, wasn't there? And he had two wives or was one a concubine or anything. Although it is interesting that times are definitely changing. So views on marriage are also part of this great revolutionary process that is kind of picking up speed at this time.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And the Normans are really actually kind of starting to buy into this. The fact that William's father had gone on pilgrimage is kind of evidence of that. They are very, very pious Christians. And increasingly anxious not to seem on the wrong sides of this kind of great moral revolution. And this combines with a sense that the best way for a noble family to pass on its patrimony is not to have
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
a divided inheritance. So you remember when we talked about the Franks, you were expressing surprise that the Frankish kings and emperors kept dividing up their patrimony between their sons and thinking, well, why haven't they sussed out that this is a bad thing to do? This again is the period where they are starting to work that out.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So the royal dynasty, the Capetian dynasty, has worked this out. And it seems that Robert, the Duke of Normandy, who's just died, he had worked it out as well. So after he has fathered William, he doesn't take a wife. And it's probable the reason he does this is he doesn't want to have a divided inheritance. He doesn't want anyone to doubt that William is his heir.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Sure. But I think if there'd been two other brothers, maybe from a legitimate source, then that would have been a real source of instability. But you're right. I mean, he's in a terrible position. And a contemporary chronicler notes as a sign how, forgetful of their loyalties, many Normans set about piling up mounds of earth and then constructing fortified strongholds on them for themselves.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
The moths, the mounds of earth, and the baileys, the towers that are put on top of them. And essentially... rival warlords within a dukedom building castles is a terrible sign. It's a sign of state breakdown. The fact that these warlords have their castles means that they can launch raiding parties on their rivals.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yes, the Polish bear was serving with the Polish army there in the Second World War. But it's a very venerable abbey reaching back to the beginnings of Christianity in Italy.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
You get this craze throughout the early years of William's dukedom for abducting foes. There's a notorious case where one is abducted from his own wedding feast, carried off, blinded, castrated. That's not a good start to a wedding.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So people are literally neutering the opposition and anarchy is spreading across Normandy and it's absolutely terrible time and will always be remembered as the worst time that Normandy ever endured.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
No, and he's not without support. So he does have, you know, he has the backing of the powerful men in his own family, the church hierarchy in Normandy. They stay loyal to him and he has the support of the King of France. And that, again, is not insignificant. But it's not enough to prevent his childhood from being constantly shadowed by violence.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So two of his guardians are hacked down in quick succession. His own tutor is murdered. And there's one particularly notorious occasion where he's in a room and his steward is also in the room asleep. And people barge in and they cut the throat of the steward and the blood spills out. The young Duke is asleep and he wakes up and finds. Oh my God. They think he's wet himself perhaps or something.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Oh no. It's like the horse's head and the Godfather. Yeah. I mean, so, so terrible. But of course the, the point of that story is that they killed the steward, but they've left William alone. People are not after William himself. They're exploiting the fact that he is not in a position to, to rein in this anarchy. But they're not targeting him for elimination.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And I suppose you could say that the process of living through these horrors, I mean, it's stealing him, isn't it?
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Well, because southern Italy in particular, I mean, if you're going out and you're looking for opportunities to set up your lordship, then you want a place where there are going to be rich pickings. And southern Italy is perfect for the Normans' purpose because this is a place where all kinds of different empires are rubbing up against each other. So there's Latin Christendom.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But there is also the Byzantine Empire. So the Byzantines have... territory there. There's Muslim powers in Sicily and constant ambitions to push up northwards through Italy. This is perfect for a bunch of hardy, horse-riding mercenaries looking essentially to be paid and then to use that money to turn on the people who are paying them.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And the first Normans who get hired in southern Italy are actually pilgrims returning from Jerusalem. And they land on the heel of Italy in 1018 from Jerusalem. And they get employed by rebels against Byzantine rule. So Italian speaking rebels. And then four years later, they've switched sides and they're in the service of the Byzantine Empire. And then within a decade...
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah, and in 1038, when Emma summons Edward to go and join her in Flanders, he says, no way, I've had enough.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
I think there's a case for saying he's the... Kind of the most obscure king who's ever ruled England. People know nothing about him. I've never heard of him. I know nothing about him.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yet another character in this story who drops dead out of nowhere. Yeah, so he's gone. And this is obviously brilliant news for Harthacnut and for Emma. So three months after the death of Harold Harefoot, Harthacnut lands in Kent. And who should be with him but his very, very self-satisfied mother, who's absolutely delighted.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So Harthacnut, to get to England, has had to agree quite stiff terms with the King of Norway. So he abandons his claim to Norway for good. And there is a story Which is, I mean, if it's true, is potentially very significant for future developments.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
That he had agreed with the Norwegian king, a guy called Magnus, that whichever of the two die first, if they die without an heir, then the other one will inherit the kingdom.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
I think his reign sounds brilliant. It's very Liz Truss-like, isn't it? Yeah, so there's this lettuce sitting in Winchester. So the first thing Half Canoe does is he shows himself a good sport by digging up the corpse of his half-brother, Harold Harefoot, dragging it through a sewer and then dumping it all shit-stained in the Thames. Oh, God.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
these kind of Norman mercenaries, strong men are carving out their own fiefdoms. And a martyrs from his vantage point in Monte Cassino, about halfway up Italy, you know, he's, he's full of admiration actually for their, their kind of prowess, for their energy, for their chutzpah really, just taking their opportunities. But there are other monks at Monte Cassino who are slightly more jaundiced.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
He then imposes massive tax rises and crashes the economy.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and I'm slightly paraphrasing here, writes, all who had enthusiastically welcomed his coming to power now decided he was useless. Oh no. And it may be because he's losing support. It may be because he's already ill by this point. It may be because Emma is still on manoeuvres. He invites his half-brother, Edward, over from Normandy to join him.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And Edward this time does come. I mean, maybe he is ill because on June 1042... So he has ruled only for a couple of years. He's drinking at a wedding feast. In Lambeth, I read. In Lambeth, yes. When suddenly, as the English Action Chronicle puts it, he fell to the earth with an awful convulsion and those who were close by took hold of him and he spoke no word afterwards but passed away.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But meanwhile, in Norway, King Magnus, kind of offstage character, but as you've been saying... This is his chance. Well, this is his chance. You know, this is his chance to claim the throne, but the English don't want him. And... That means that the only plausible, possible candidate is Emma's other son, Edward, the son of Athelred, who is a descendant of Alfred the Great and ultimately Kurdic.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And so, unbelievably... The Kurdi King gas have been restored. The line of Ether of the Unready had the last laugh. Absolutely. So Easter 1043, Edward is crowned king. And people may be wondering, you know, Emma must be exultant about this. She's triumphed. Yeah. Not a bit of it. Edward's grudge against his mother is still going strong.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So he confiscates all her treasure and banishes her from court. And unbelievably, she then starts plotting with Magnus, the King of Norway, to overthrow her own son. And it's just absolutely deranged behaviour.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
She just gets... She just kind of withers away in obscurity. So she dies in 1052. She's buried in Winchester alongside Canute and half of Canute. And Edward is now king. So while all this has been going on in England, William has been coming of age. And in 1047, he's 19 years old. He faces down a great rebellion and he rides out to battle for the first time and he secures a very bloody victory.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And riding back from this great victory, he rams home the implications of his triumph by dismantling a large number of illegally raised castles. And as he enters his 20s, It is clear to everyone that the anarchy in Normandy is over, that strong rule has been re-established, that William is going to be a duke to respect and to fear. And meanwhile, William himself...
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
watching what's been going on in England, he must have been pondering the lessons of Edward's unexpected accession to the English throne. And he must have reflected, well, this teaches that usurpers can be toppled if they have God's favour at their back, that those who are favoured by God can claim thrones, and that a man can travel from Normandy to England and become a king.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
There'd be no vacancy. No, there'd be no vacancy. But also, just suppose that Edward doesn't have sons and so there is a vacancy. It presupposes that there wouldn't be people in Norway or indeed in England itself who might not have thoughts that perhaps they should become king. In England itself.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So the abbot of Monte Cassino is a guy called Desiderius, and he will actually go on to become pope. And he views these Norman adventurers kind of as a wolf pack. that they've been driven southwards by hunger and they are hungry for blood. So he wrote, the Normans are avid for rapine and possess an insatiable appetite for seizing what belongs to others. It's not entirely wrong.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Not entirely wrong and a perspective that others as well as the Italians will come to get. Yeah. And I suppose a question that the Italians might have pondered was why didn't impecunious Normans, you know, if they're looking for lordships, why aren't they doing it nearer home? Why are they coming to Italy to do it?
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yeah. And the measure of this is that initially he'd begun life as the Count of Rouen, but he's kind of promoted himself to become the Duke of Normandy. And essentially by the end of his life, everyone else, including the King of France, has basically said, yeah, okay, you know, you can rank as a Duke or in Latin, a Dux. So this is the root of Duce, you know, the title that Mussolini takes up.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
It's to be essentially a kind of military strongman as much as anything else. And in the context of France... there are five dukes as well as the Duke of Normandy. So the Duke of Burgundy, the Duke of Aquitaine, of Gascony, and directly on Normandy's Western Frank, the Duke of Brittany. And to be a duke in 11th century France is not the equivalent of being, say, an earl in England.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
because we talked in the first episode about how over the course of the 10th and into the 11th century, the kings of England have massively consolidated and centralised their power over this kind of very precociously united kingdom. But in France, the opposite process has been happening. Royal power has kind of ebbed and bled away. And by this point, so early 11th century, in France...
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
The king exercises direct rule only over a tiny patchwork of territories centered on Paris and Orléans. So to rule as the Duke of Normandy is to enjoy an autonomy, a kind of degree of independence that is beyond the wildest dreams of the Earl of East Anglia or the Earl of Mercia.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Well, so we talked at the end of the last episode about how Richard's son, Robert, who rules as Duke for almost a decade, in 1035, he goes off on pilgrimage to Jerusalem. And we were expressing surprise at this because Normandy potentially would be in an unstable situation where he'd die. But one of the reasons he's going is undoubtedly because he's very pious.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
He wants to go to Jerusalem for those reasons. But also he wants to cut a dash. He wants to display his wealth, his power, his authority on the grandest of international stages, which if you're a Christian is Constantinople, still the greatest city in the Christian world. And so he travels from Normandy to Constantinople and he cuts an absolutely amazing dash. The Byzantines are really dazzled.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And this is despite the fact that they've had some dealings with the Normans in the south of Italy. So they trust them. But they are impressed. And, you know, there are these reports that even his mules are shod with gold. And it's said that his campfires are fuelled with the shells of pistachio nuts. And this is regarded even by the Byzantines as the height of high living.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And so they call him the Magnificent. Okay. Which from a Byzantine paying, you know, paying tribute to a barbarian from the wild and frozen north is not bad. I mean, that is kind of measure of his standing.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Yes, because the King of France doesn't exercise a kind of controlling authority, it means that all these various dukes and counts... if they're to rule their territory and perhaps expand them, they have to be very militarily proficient and they can't afford a single slip because, as you say, there are predators lurking everywhere.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So in the case of the Norman Dukes, these predators would include most obviously, I suppose, the King of France himself because Paris is upriver from Rouen and that's the great centre of French royal power. And the King of France is therefore a kind of brooding empire
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
slightly ambivalent presence the dukes have always been kind of essentially loyal to the king of france and the king of france has shown favor to them but the risk is that if they seem too powerful then the king may turn against them so that's that's an obvious risk okay
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And then on the western flank of Normandy, we've already mentioned the Dukes of Brittany and the Bretons are seen rather like the Romans used to see the ancient Britons as just complete barbarians. So a Norman writer describes them as an uncivilised and quick-tempered people lacking any manners. And rather as the Romans did at talking about the Britons goes on about how they like to drink milk.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
The Normans do in the long run. They go and besiege and take Lisbon, don't they? In the Second Crusade.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
All kinds of horrors will follow. So the Bretons are a constant challenge. But the most dangerous... adversaries of the Norman Dukes are the Counts of Anjou, who lie to the south, and Anjou is centered on the Loire. These are Counts, not Dukes, so you might think, well, they're slightly second division. There's an additional reason why it might seem slightly puzzling
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
that the counts of Anjou are such a menace because there is actually a buffer zone between Normandy and Anjou, which is the county of Maine. So Le Mans, as in the motor racing. Yeah. I mean, obviously not in the 11th century, but that's all lying in the future. I'm glad you've clarified that. Yeah, just make sure that's clear.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So this is a buffer zone, but it is clear that the Counts of Anjou are, in a way, the most Norman rival that the Normans have.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
You could look at the Counts of Anjou and say, yeah, they have something of the predatory quality of the Dukes of Normandy, because like the Dukes of Normandy, they are relative upstarts, they're very ambitious, they're exceedingly brutal, and they're very cunning, very politically proficient.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
And the Count of Anjou, as Robert rides off on his pilgrimage going off to Jerusalem, is gnarled, terrifying, completely brutal warlord called Fulknera. His nickname is the Black.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Fulknera the Black. And he has been in power for essentially half a century. So he succeeded his father back in 987. And over the course of the 50 years that he's been Count of Anjou, I mean, he again and again displays his capacity for violence and vengeance and perhaps the most notorious episode from his life.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So in the year 1000 itself, the great citadel in Angers, which is essentially his capital, gets seized and held against him. And what is shocking about this absolute stab in the back is that the person who has led the rebellion against him is Faulknera's own wife. And the reason that she's done this is that Faulknera has realized that she's been having an affair with someone else.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So, I mean, cuckolding someone like Faulknera is very, very foolish. So he is not happy about this. He sweeps into Angers. He storms the citadel. Absolute carnage. Most of Angers is laid to waste and his wife is captured and burnt at the stake. And that is a very public statement that, you know, do not cross him.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
Absolutely. So the 11th century, in France particularly, is a period of such transformation that I think... It is not an exaggeration to call it a revolution. Europe's first great revolution. And it affects almost every aspect. So we will see it's religious, it's social, it's cultural, but it is also military.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
So just focusing specifically on the military revolution that is happening in France at this time, it is absolutely, as you say, a consequence of the breakdown of royal authority in France. And back in the time of Charlemagne, it's a prerogative of the king, to set up fortifications, to build battlements. That's essentially his job.
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550. The Road to 1066: Rise of the Normans (Part 3)
But by the time the Carolingian dynasty, the dynasty of Charlemagne, has gone extinct in France and has been replaced by the Capetian dynasty, the Capetians are struggling to hold on to their own territory. And so their fortifications, rather than expressing a their ability to control the whole of France, are an index of the fact that they're losing control.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yes, and... John Dee would always claim that he was descended from a great line of Welsh princes from Gwynedd. But in reality, it seems that his forebears were kind of impoverished cattle farmers. And that is one of the reasons why Roland Dee ends up coming to London, because, you know, great expectations. And actually, he does amazingly well for himself.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
He's obviously a very smart, shrewd businessman. He goes into the textile business. He wins membership of the city's Guild of Mercers. You know, the city guilds are very, very powerful. And he ends up being appointed to a position in the royal court as the gentleman sewer to Henry VIII. So a kind of bespoke tailor, I guess. He sews the royal clothing. He orders in materials.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And also, weirdly, part of being a gentleman sewer is that you have responsibility for setting the table at royal feasts and kind of supervising all that. And he ends up becoming very, very wealthy. And I suppose young John growing up in his house, very close to the docks. I mean, he must be aware that his father's wealth is very dependent on international trade.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
You know, all those ships going across to Antwerp and Amsterdam and whatever. And it may be, I guess, that this is what fosters a kind of interest for him in the idea of naval exploration and of naval imperialism.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yeah, so St. John's College has been in existence for about 30 years when Dee goes there. And as you say, it has these very, very brilliant Catholic humanists, but it is also getting a reputation for kind of radical Protestantism. And Dee, he's a kind of... instinctive centrist, almost a kind of slippery centrist, you might say, bearing in mind what's going to happen, as we'll see.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But I guess a kind of more generous way to put it might be to say that he feels the tug of aspects both of Catholic and Protestant doctrines and religious practices. He seems to have been kind of genuinely ecumenical, which is quite rare in the 16th century.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
He's definitely a very devout man, but he doesn't feel a kind of instinctive sense that he has to stand on one side or other of this great religious divide that is opening up. And of course, in that, he will be a bit like Elizabeth I, who is also kind of quite like that. So that's an important aspect of his character that develops at Cambridge. And another is a taste for theatrical spectacle.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So 1546, he graduates from St John's and he goes to Trinity, Cambridge, which has been founded by Henry VIII. So there's still a statue of Henry VIII at Trinity College. And Dee is appointed as one of the founding fellows. And one of his jobs is to stage plays. So Cambridge College, they love plays. And Dee does this Aristophanes comedy, so an ancient Greek comedy. And it...
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
The stage directions require character to fly up to Mount Olympus on the back of a giant dung beetle. Bizarre. Yeah, it's a challenge. But Dee pulls it off with a kind of amazing coup de theatre. He has very innovative use of pulleys and mirrors, and people sat there watching this can't believe what they're seeing.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And it's so impressive, this kind of visual special effect, that in the long run it leads to accusations that he could only have achieved it via witchcraft. And Dee himself, later in his life, when he's complaining about all the accusations of necromancy that are being levelled at him, he says that this was the source of his reputation as a conjurer of wicked and damned spirits.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yes, because it is part of the Protestant attack on the Catholic priesthood in particular, that they are magicians or actually specifically conjurers. So Francis Young, very much a friend of the show, we had on The Rest Is History, I think a couple of years back, talking about his book Magic in Merlin's Realm. history of occult politics in Britain.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So in that book, he points out that there is a measure of truth to this Protestant accusation that Catholic priests are conjurers. Because to quote Francis, priests were quite literally conjurers since they received the minor order of exorcist on the way to the priesthood. And conjurer was just a synonym for exorcist, a priest exorcised or conjured every time he baptized.
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So, you know, revoking Satan and all that kind of stuff.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
and traditional exorcisms of salt and water preceding the Mass were considered an integral part of the rite. So the fact that Dee seems to have been quite fond of these practices and these rituals kind of does cast him in Protestant eyes as a bit of a conjurer.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yes. So there's that as well. And Dee is such a brilliant mathematician that he actually gets offered... to be professor of mathematics at Oxford. And he turns it down because he's hoping for better things. But he's clearly, you know, again, he is seen as being the best at maths in England.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And again, this kind of suggests he might be a conjurer to people who are not au fait with, as you say, simultaneous equations. But this isn't the only reason that Dee comes to be associated with magic. Yeah. Because, actually, he is investigating it. Right, exactly. He is a conjurer. I mean, there's no two ways about it. Yeah, he genuinely is. Yeah, he's trying to keep this quiet, but...
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Right from his earliest days as an undergraduate at Cambridge, he is genuinely studying the occult arts in some detail. And he does it at St. John's. He does it at Trinity. Then he goes abroad. He studies in the Lowlands. He ends up studying in Paris. And everywhere he goes, he is combining his studies in mathematics, in philosophy, in astronomy, kind of what you might call legitimate subjects,
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with an exploration of more magical and occult avenues to wisdom and knowledge.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yeah, so we mentioned this. He first starts kind of thinking about this. He's in Paris studying there and... he has his eyes opened to the possibility that he could access the language of the angels, which he equates with the language that God had used when he spoke to Adam in the Garden of Eden. And Dee comes to think that this kind of primal divine language is,
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that it must have a grammar, it must have an alphabet, and that because God has created all the universe, therefore this language must interfuse the whole of nature, everything that you can see and everything that you can't see. And that if only you could unlock the secrets of this language, then the mysteries of the universe itself would be unlocked.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And there's something kind of almost of nuclear physics there. The idea that there is power to be obtained in unlocking the kind of the secret dynamics of the cosmos. And this is what Dee is after. He wants to harness its power. And Dee attempts to harness his power and to penetrate its secrets, partly through his own studies. So he accumulates an absolutely massive library.
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But of course, another option is also floating in his mind. And that is, well, what if I reach out to these angels and what if I can find someone who can understand the angelic language?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Now, why is that a problem specifically for Dee? Well, Dee's dad seems to have been very embroiled in these Protestant attempts to stop Mary coming to the throne. And when Mary successfully brushes these attempts aside, so Lady Jane Grey is defeated. She has her head chopped off and all of that, which we did in those previous episodes, as you said. Dee's dad gets caught up in this.
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He gets sent to the tower. He's released, but massively fined. And basically this destroys his credit. So from that point on, he's ruined. And this has a massive knock-on effect on Dee, who had been relying on his father basically to subsidize his studies.
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And it means that Dee now has to kind of turn his academic studies, maybe his occult studies, into either money or into royal favor, which in turn would give him kind of various perks and livings and enable him to live in the style to which he has kind of grown up accustomed. But obviously, this is very tricky in a world where Mary is Catholic. You know, she's, what would you say?
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I guess you'd say Mecca, making England Catholic again. That's her business. But lurking in the background, her heir is Elizabeth, who's a Protestant. Yes. So Dee's approach to this problem is massively to hedge his bets. So what solution? Despite the fact that actually under Edward VI, he'd seemed very keen on the Protestant Reformation.
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I mean, he'd said all the right things, despite the fact that secretly he was quite into Catholic ritual. Under Mary, he becomes a Catholic priest and he does it in a single day. So you have to go through six degrees of ordination and these are rushed through, very, very unusual that you can become a Catholic priest in a single day, I gather.
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He's able to do this because it is facilitated for him by the Bishop of London, the Catholic Bishop of London, a guy called Edmund Bonner, and he ends up being called by Protestants Bloody Bonner. So that gives some idea of his reputation with the more evangelical wing of Christian. But actually, Bonner is a very shrewd, very charming man, if he's not sending you to be burnt at the stake.
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He seems very keen on Dee, and it is thought that this is because they may well have been related. So Bonner as well seems to have come from the Welsh marches. So that's good. Dee is now a Catholic priest. This will obviously help him with Mary. But what about Elizabeth? How can he keep Elizabeth on board? Well, now that Dee is a priest...
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He can go to Woodstock, where Elizabeth, who essentially has been kept under house arrest, is allowed to go and hear Mass in Woodstock. He can make contact with her. When he makes contact with her, Dee's reputation as the best astrologer in England is already secure. He casts Elizabeth's horoscope, he casts Mary's horoscope, and he casts the horoscope of Philip of Spain, to whom Mary is married.
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And this, of course, is exceedingly dangerous because essentially he's letting Elizabeth know that the heavens have predicted that she will become queen. And presumably that means that the horoscopes that he's cast for Mary and Philip are not as positive.
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So he's arrested. He's charged with calculating, conjuring, witchcraft. I mean, this is very bad. And on top of that, this informer appears who accuses Dee of having used enchantments to kill one of this guy's children and to have blinded another. So that's kind of added to the tally of necromantic crimes.
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And Dee, like his dad, is sent to the tower where almost certainly, although he never actually mentions it, but this would have been standard procedure, he's probably put to the rack. So suffers quite brutal torture and things that are really bleak for him. But he does still have this one trump card, which is the Bishop of London, Edmund Bonner.
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And Dee is brought before Bonner, who couldn't be more charming. Not only does he license Dee's release, but he actually then employs Dee as his personal chaplain. And in this role, Dee then takes part in the interrogation of suspected heretics. And, you know, I guess a guy's got to do what he's got to do. I mean, it's a kind of survival strategy, but it's not particularly glorious.
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And of course, it's, you know, he's now storing up all kinds of problems for himself. If, as the horoscope had foretold, Elizabeth is to become queen, which, of course, in due course, she does. So Mary dies in November 1558. and is succeeded by Elizabeth, who is a Protestant. And Dee has become a priest. He's been hanging out with Bloody Bonner.
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He's been taking part in the interrogation of Protestants. I mean, it's not looking good for him.
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I mean, it's striking. Something quite admirable is that Dee does continue to visit Bonner even after he ends up being put in the Marshallsea prison. So he does stand by him. He's not kind of 100% repenting and recanting his role, but it is awkward.
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So Dee appears in Fox's Book of Martyrs, which is the great volume recounting the Marian persecution of Protestants, the burning at Smithfield and all of that. And Dee features in it. you know, one of the interrogations of these martyrs. And it takes Dee over a decade to get this mention of him removed, which in due course he does manage to do. But I mean, it is a kind of embarrassment.
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And in Fox's book of martyrs, he is referred to as the great conjurer. So he's being cast not just as a papist, but as a necromancer. And on top of that, his dad has been ruined. He's completely skint. He has to make his own living. I mean, it's looking really, really bad for him.
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That is his one crucial contact. It is enough to keep him secure from his enemies. But the question is, is it going to be enough to secure him status at court, financial security, all these things that he desperately craves? And so Dean knows that he has to prove his value. Elizabeth isn't just going to give him... living or her favour just because he cast a horoscope at a dangerous time.
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He has to prove that he is worth her investment of time and money. But fortunately, his reputation as England's greatest astrologer, I mean, that is still very much in Elizabeth's mind. And so it is Dee who is charged with fixing on the best date for her coronation. Right. You know, he looks into the stars to work out when will be the most favourable time for her to be crowned. What was it?
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Why don't you, like the witch at the start of Discovery of Witches, go into the Bodleian and tell us?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
That is very necromantic and very suspicious. So rather like you, a great scholar who decides not to stay in the university system, but to go out into the world and trust your future to strange supernatural voices that kind of go out into the ether. Dee is kind of aiming at a similar thing. He knows that he has to offer Elizabeth something. But how? Through his learning? Through alchemy?
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Or maybe... Just maybe by tapping into the language and the secrets of the angels, time will tell.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Dominic, what do you find useful about Nord?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And Dominic, I know you're all about cybersecurity, so you know better than anyone, it can often be very hard to distinguish fake websites from real ones. But the great news is that Threat Protection Pro will prevent you from accessing them. And do you know what? NordVPN is actually the first and only VPN app to receive the certification that their anti-phishing software, is reliable.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
I think it absolutely does. It's a kind of touching glimpse of her concern for Dee, but it's also tribute to her interest in his work and I think also the resources that he has gathered in his home. So Elizabeth, when she drops off on Dee, would almost certainly have been travelling either to or from her palace in Richmond, which is down the Thames from London.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And the reason that she stops off to see Dee on the way is because he also has a house on the Thames between Richmond and London at a place called Mortlake. He has this large garden that runs down to the banks of the river and it's a great rambling pile. He's bought up kind of everything. various local tenements and turned them into alchemical workshops.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So Elizabeth obviously would be very interested in that. But his house contains possibly an even greater wonder than his alchemical workshops, which is the largest private library in England. And this is knowledge is power. This is why Elizabeth is interested in Dee and in these kind of incredible resources of learning that he has in his house.
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A lack of experience doesn't necessarily preclude one from pontificating about it. No, of course not. I mean, Dee's genius, and I think it's not an exaggeration. I mean, he is a remarkable man. It lies in the way that he is able to kind of blend and fuse an amazing kind of array of categories of information, fields of study. in a way that no one else would be able to do.
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Because what Dee brings is, I mean, let's just say this incredible library, but also I think just nerve, kind of chutzpah in kind of blending it all together. So his project to kind of promote a British empire is drawing on all different kinds of books. So he has in his library, absolutely cutting edge books on navigation.
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So we talked about how as a young man, he had gone to study in the low countries and And when he was there, he'd become a very close friend of the most celebrated cartographer of his day, Gerard Mercator, who is busy incorporating coastlines of the New World. You know, the ports of that being brought back by Spanish and other sailors.
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He is banishing the kind of the maps that have been traditional in the Middle Ages where you'd put Jerusalem at the center. And as Benjamin Woolley in his biography of Dee, The Queen's Kundra, puts it very nicely, I think. A picture of the world emerged that to 16th century eyes would have been just as startling and significant as the first photographs of Earth taken from space were in the 20th.
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So it's opening up a new way of understanding the globe. And actually... Mercator had given Dee not just kind of maps and volumes on cartography, but also a pair of globes, one of the earth, one of the heavens, you know, which are incredibly valuable. So that's also part of this kind of great library of knowledge that Dee can offer.
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Because it enables Dee to give to Elizabeth and her advisors what seems to be an absolutely foolproof legal claim to a British empire overseas. And you mentioned King Arthur, so that's an important part of it. Dee
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adduces all kinds of ancient texts and histories, proving that Arthur had conquered most of the continent, but had also conquered a whole chain of islands leading to Greenland and beyond Greenland into what people would now recognise as being America. So this is brilliant. This proves that Elizabeth is absolutely destined to be the last empress. But there is also, intriguingly, a Welsh aspect.
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And we talked about how Dee is of Welsh pedigree.
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Of course. As is Elizabeth. So this is also something that ticks a lot of boxes. And this is the story of a Welsh prince who lived in the late 12th century. So that's going centuries and centuries back. And this is a guy called Madoc. And the story is that Madoc's father was the Prince of Gwynedd, the most powerful prince in Wales. He dies.
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Madoc's brothers all fall out with one another, kind of squabbling over the inheritance. But Madoc is a man of peace.
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he doesn't want to be part of this game of thrones and so he resolves to leave wales with refugees from the civil war and sail westwards in search of a new land and there are various accounts of where he went but the most popular account says that he sailed up to the arctic circle that he then went down the coast of north america past florida rounds it goes to mexico establishes a colony comes back to wales reports to everyone in wales look i've found this new world i
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founded a colony. Anyone else want to come? Lots of people do. Pile onto his ships. They sail off. And that is the last that is heard of Madoc.
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I mean, this didn't happen. I agree that they are implausible. And what adds to the implausibility of these stories is that actually there is no written record of this legend at all. until the Tudor period.
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It's generally accepted that this probably was a tradition that was current in the Middle Ages, part of this kind of great swirl of stories and fantasies about lands beyond the Atlantic that inspired Columbus. but it doesn't seem to have been a particularly prominent one. And as you say, I mean, the likelihood that Prince Madoc actually existed is minimal, but you can see why it appeals to Dee.
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You can see why it appeals to Elizabeth. Both of them, as you say, are kind of Welsh because it enables her to lay claim to the new world on the grounds that people from Britain had got there and founded colonies long before the Spanish. And so it's not surprising that that Elizabeth and her advisors are intrigued by these arguments.
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You know, they are a kind of mad and inimitable blend of the practical, so all the maps, the occult, the last empress, and the antiquarian, Arthur and Madoc, all kind of mixed up, basically to provide the English with a justification for going abroad and nicking stuff from the Spanish and indeed in the long run from Native Americans.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
It absolutely does. And Raleigh always remains Dee's patron. But the problem is he gets caught up in all kinds of faction fights and court intrigues. When Raleigh falls from favour, Dee risks falling from favour. And certainly by the 1580s, Dee is getting quite nervous that his credit at court is getting severely overdrawn, that Elizabeth seems to be a little less... fond of him than she was.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So at one point she was praising him as my philosopher. But those days by the 1580s are starting to fade away. And there are very influential factions at court led by William Cecil, who is the greatest of all Elizabeth's ministers, who's very opposed to this vision of an overseas empire because he thinks it's quixotic and even worse, very expensive. And so D, he's stuck.
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He doesn't have a private fortune. He needs the support of great figures at court. And so by the early 1580s, he's looking around for a new patron. And in the space of just over a year, so that's between 1582 and 1583, he meets not one, but two people who seem to open up to him dramatic new avenues of promise.
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And the first of these is a man that we've been mentioning, alluding to, kind of touching on throughout, but never actually saying who he is, where he comes from, why he's so significant. And this is this mysterious figure, this medium, this scryer, Edward Kelly.
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From Worcester, probably educated at Oxford. He certainly seems to have known Latin and Greek. And he marries a woman called Joanna, Dominic, from Chipping Norton. Your neck of the woods. And he always seems to have had a quality of the disreputable. So there are lots of stories that he had had his ears cropped, which was the punishment for forgery there.
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We don't know whether that's true, but it is telling perhaps that he always seems to have worn a cap pulled down over his ears. So who knows? So a slightly shady, mysterious figure. When he turns up at Dee's house in 1582, Dee thinks he is great. And the reason for this is that Kelly proves himself very, very rapidly to be the most talented, the most formidable scryer that Dee has ever met.
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By the quality and richness of the visions that you have. So, you know, Dee has been trying to contact angels for decades. He's been employing various people who claim to have this ability because Dee himself doesn't. Dee gazes into kind of mirrors and sees nothing. He has this incredible obsidian mirror that seems to have come from Mexico.
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So kind of Aztec mirror that is kind of ideal for the purpose. This should be opening up massive great visions of the heavens, but he can't do it. It's like having a computer but being unable to switch it on or something. He needs someone to do it for him. And of course, the risk is this makes him an absolute gull for fraudsters and charlatans and crooks.
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And all the people that Dee has been employing do turn out bad. basically to be crooks. But Kelly seems to be the real deal. And Dee records his first attempt to kind of gaze into this Aztec mirror and summon up the angels. And it happens on the 10th of March, 1582. So he describes Kelly.
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He then settled himself to the action and on his knees at my desk, setting the stone before him, felt a prayer and entreaty, etc., In the mean space, I, in my oratory, did pray and make motion to God and his good creatures for the furthering of this action. Within one quarter of an hour or less, he had sight of one in the stone. I then came to him to the stone.
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And after some thanks to God and welcome to the good creature used, I required to know his name. And he spake plainly to the hearing of Edward Kelly. So Dee can't understand what is being said. That his name is... which Kelly reveals is Uriel.
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So two things to say to that. One possibility, which I think is likely to be true, is that Kelly has an unbelievably vivid imagination and learning and understands what Dee wants. He's part of this occult world. He conjures up incredible wisdom. visions of an astonishing richness. And the things that he is reporting are the kind of things that Dee is expecting, only better.
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So Kelly's probably read the same books, in other words. Kind of. He's plugged into the same world. The other possibility, which is one that occultists to this day uphold, is the possibility that he really was seeing
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supernatural beings so that is an alternative we should leave that open as a possibility and listeners can make up their own minds I think it's fair to say yes okay this is an exciting development for Dee but then the following year there's another exciting development and we've had quite a lot of polls in this series so far love a poll yeah and here's another one this is a guy called Obrakt Lasky he's a count very flamboyant very mysterious and he arrives by boat up the Thames at Dee's house on the 15th of June 1583
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So he is notable for an absolutely massive beard. Big fan of a large beard on the rest of his history. So Hollinshead, the historian whose accounts inspire so many of Shakespeare's plays, gives a description of Lasky's beard.
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It was of such length and breadth as that lying in his bed and parting it with his hands, the same overspread his breasts and shoulders, himself greatly delighting therein and reputing it an ornament.
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He's a very keen alchemist, very much aware of Dee's reputation. In fact, it's likely that that is one of the kind of principal reasons he's come to England and he's very restless. He's very ambitious and he is desperate to know if the reigning King of Poland is long for the world, and if not, whether Lasky is himself destined to replace him. Wow. What's the answer?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So Kelly gets out the Aztec obsidian mirror, does his scrying, contacts the archangel Uriel, and Uriel answers, which Kelly reveals means, I will grant him his desire. And later that summer, there's another angel who has the brilliant name of Jubun Ladaik.
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And he reveals, and I won't give the angelic words, you shall pass into his country to help his kingdom be established again. So that's looking good.
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Yeah, Poland. Wow, that's great. So this prospect, Lasky will become king and thereby be their great patron, combines with the fact that he's lost favourite court, that he's being harried by his creditors. He seems to have arrived at a bit of a dead end career-wise in England. And he decides that he will sail with Lasky from England to Holland and from there travel onwards to Poland.
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Kelly will have to come with him because otherwise they can't keep in touch with the Angels. Both Kelly and Dee take their wives and their families with them. They all set out, all seem set fair. Everything looks promising. This is what the angels have promised. What could possibly go wrong?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Right. And also been misleading Dee and Kelly, because if he's not going to become king, then they have no prospects of success as the angels has been promising. And in fact, as they start traveling to Poland, the angels keep popping up with all kinds of helpful comments along the lines of everyone back in England thinks you're absolutely losers, you're renegades, you're traitors. So that's bad.
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And also warning that Poland's in a condition of civil war. You don't want to be there. Why have you come there? And... Kelly does not say, well, you told us to come. But this is obviously kind of lurking in the background. So then the angels say, actually, forget Poland, go to the emperor. And this is Rudolf II in Prague.
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And Rudolf is a famous patron of alchemists, astrologers, everything to do with the occult. He loves all that kind of stuff. They don't really have any money, Dee and Kelly, by this point. But they think, well, since the angels are telling us to go, we probably should. They arrive in Prague and this too turns out to be a disaster. So Dee has this European reputation as an alchemist and astrologer.
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Well, so in A Discovery of Witches, he is a magician. He's an alchemist. He is the owner of the greatest library in London. And he has just returned home from prison. Bohemia. Right. And this is why the witch and the vampire have gone to meet him because he has all these incredible books that are full of kind of amazing details about the secrets of eternal life and so on.
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And so Rudolf is interested in him, allows him to have an audience. But disastrously, an angel has popped up and told him to go to Rudolf and rebuke him for his sins. which Dee is absolutely terrified about doing, but the angel insists on it, so Dee goes and does this, and it doesn't go down tremendously well. This is like Kelly winding Dee up, surely.
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And what makes it even worse is that just before Dee goes in for his interview with Rudolph, Kelly's been arrested for brawling with one of the Imperial guards, has been locked up, and so Dee has to go and get him out. And adding to the fun is the fact that a particularly sinister angel has appeared on the scene, and she is called Madimi.
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And she has the appearance of an eight-year-old girl who wears a kind of a splendid satin dress, a gown that changes from red to green and back again. And she starts warning them that Satan is is after them, that Satan seeketh the destruction of thy household and the life of thy children.
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Is he a fraudster? I really don't know. It's too distant. It's too strange. Kelly's visions are so consistent and Dee keeps a very detailed record of them. It's hard to believe that he is just a barefaced fraudster. I suspect he kind of does think that he has access to the dimensions of the supernatural. But obviously I don't think that Madimi actually exists. Right, no.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
I mean, it's in the kind of border zones between fantasy, between charlatanism, a capacity for imagining that you were seeing things that aren't there. He's deluding himself. as much as he's deluding.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Well, except that on top of that, I suspect that part of what is going on is that Kelly is getting a bit fed up with Dee by this point because Kelly's fortunes are actually on the upturn because as well as a brilliant scryer, he turns out to be a very promising alchemist. And alchemy is potentially much more lucrative than kind of talking to angels. But it's not actually turning lead into gold.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Well, we will see. So the fact that Dee is kind of noting down the voices of angels, Kelly is starting to get into alchemy. Unsurprisingly, this starts to attract the attention of the papal nuncio in Prague. They are from a Protestant kingdom, even though Dee, of course, is an ordained Catholic priest. It's a treacherous position for them to be in.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
At the same time, Rudolf is starting to suspect that Dee might be a spy. Dee and Kelly are endlessly being banished from Prague, allowed back in, banished again. Dee's relationship with Kelly is going very badly downhill. Dee needs Kelly to keep him in touch with the angels because otherwise he's sunk.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But because Kelly is increasingly more interested in establishing his reputation as an alchemist, he's getting a bit bored with talking to the angels. And it may not be coincidence that in 1587, when Kelly's reputation as an alchemist is becoming so impressive that it's not just Rudolph who is kind of saying, well, I might sign you up.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
People from England are coming and saying, come back to England. You know, it's this kind of Keir Starmer and AI thing again. Please come back and help revive our economy by giving us loads of gold. It's in this year, 1587, that you get an absolutely massive bombshell from Madimi. who has recently started doing strip teases. So she started pulling her gown back and showing her private parts.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Now, obviously the witch and the vampire are not real. obviously, but Dr. D is. He's a genuine historical figure and he really was a magician. So he's the court magician of Elizabeth I, no less. He really did travel to Bohemia where he met with the Emperor Rudolf II in Prague, which in the late 16th century is the great city of magic.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Well, Kelly can see it, he says. Yeah. So Madimi then announces that all things are possible and permitted to the godly, nor are sexual organs more hateful to them than the faces of every mortal. So what does this mean? Kelly explains, because of course he understands what the angels are saying. He reveals that what Madimi is saying is that he and Dee should sleep with the other person's wife.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And Kelly basically has had the hots for Dee's wife right the way through their trip. And Dee is completely appalled. He adores his wife. They're very close. But obviously he can't disobey the angels. And so 21st of May, 1587, he writes in his diary, pactum factum, the agreement has been fulfilled.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Dee describes the negotiations. She's very upset. He's very upset. But they seem mutually have decided, you know, if this is what the angels are saying, then that's what they've got to do. But obviously the consequences of this are kind of devastating. Relations between the two men really, really break down. And in 1589, Dee returns to England. He's had enough.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
He doesn't care that he won't be able to talk to the angels anymore. Maybe he is starting to suspect that the angels are actually demons. And Kelly remains in Bohemia, where amazingly, despite the fact that he's been nothing but trouble for years and years in Bohemia, Rudolph employs him as his chief alchemist. He knights him.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
He lavishes him with all the riches that Kelly had secretly been hankering after all this time. But then there's the problem that Rudolph is expecting gold and Kelly can't provide it. And so Rudolph imprisons him. Not so much to punish him for not turning up with gold, but to basically say, well, you know, you stay there and you give me the gold and don't go off and do other mad stuff.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Kelly tries to escape and it is said dies in the attempt. But there are other accounts as well. So some say that he did escape Rudolph and Madoff and did discover the Philosopher's Stone. Others say that he, a bit like the men who become the Nazgul, that he transmutes into a kind of ghoulish spectre. and is seen stalking the lands of Bohemia.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And there are others, occultists living today, who say that Kelly never died, that he's still on the scene, he's still around. Wow. So, I mean, all of those, I guess, are kind of pretty tragic ways to go. Well, unless you're still around. I mean, that's great. Would you want to live around? Maybe you would. Dee's not still around, is he? Dee's definitely not around.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So he goes back to England and he has a very kind of miserable last few years. So he goes back to Mortlake. to his house and he finds that it's been absolutely trashed. And his beloved library, people have gone in and they've nicked loads of volumes. And these seem to have been some of his students. I mean, people basically knew what they were looking for.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And Dee complained that 500 volumes had been stolen and that some of these volumes had been worth hundreds of pounds, which is an inordinate amount of money back in Tudor times. Elizabeth doesn't completely abandon him. So she appoints him to a post in the cathedral in Manchester, which gives him a kind of income. But he is an exile from court. I mean, he feels it.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Apologies to Mancunian listeners, but he really feels he's been sent into exile. And he finally returns to Mortlake in 1605, by which point Elizabeth is dead. James is on the throne. I mean, James has no interest in Dee at all. It's funny because James loves witches and demonology and stuff, doesn't he? Well, he does, but he's kind of quite hostile to witches.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And I think the taint of witchcraft hangs around Dee. And it means that, a bit like Walter Raleigh, he's been left over from the previous reign. He dies pretty poverty stricken. He's had to sell off such of his possessions as have been left to him. But he does leave behind this haunting reputation. I mean, it's why he appears in A Discovery of Witches.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And he casts a kind of supernatural glamour over memories of Elizabeth's reign, I think. I mean, I agree. He clearly is unbelievably gullible. And the story of his deception by Kelly is a kind of really tragic one. But he is also clearly very, very brilliant. The scope and scale of his learning, it was absolutely astonishing.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And so I thought rather than leave listeners with thoughts of what an absolute idiot he was... It might be kinder to quote one of the greatest of the Elizabethan poets, Edmund Spencer, author of The Fairy Queen, this kind of great allegorical portrait of the Elizabethan period. And in it, he gives what is almost certainly a portrait of Dr. D. So Spencer describes a room
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And he really did work with this guy, whose name checked in that passage you read, this guy called Edward Kelly, a medium who claimed to be able to communicate with angels, or perhaps, Dominic, these angels are in fact demons, and to have penetrated the wisdom of the heavens. What a story. What's a story? Yeah, amazing story. And Dr. D is an amazing character.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
decorated with paintings of famous wizards. And he goes on to write, there sat a man of ripe and perfect age who did there meditate all his life long. So that's the paintings of the famous wizards. But through continual practice and usage, he now was grown right wise and a wondrous sage.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Are you now?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Oh, yes, this is the famous, notorious one-star review in the Scotsman, isn't it?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
This is amazing, Dominic. And the fact that you were cast in this role, it has nothing to do with the fact that Sherlock & Co. is a goal-hanger production like this one.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And it struck me when we were doing the series about the Nazi invasion of Poland, we've actually done loads of stuff on the Nazis, but we haven't really done many episodes on that other great obsession of the British education system in the field of history, which of course is the Tudors. And I thought that doing an episode on Dr. D would be a good way of
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
making amends because he is a fascinating topic.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yes. And Dee kind of holds a brilliant mirror up to this. And I use that metaphor advisedly because he's very into mirrors and thinks that you can see all kinds of strange supernatural things within mirrors, as we will see.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But the reason that he's particularly interesting on this is that that particular period, say when Henry dies, followed by Edward VI, who's a Protestant, followed by Mary, who's a Catholic, followed by Elizabeth, who's a Protestant. Dee has to negotiate all that and he only succeeds in doing that by the absolute skin of his teeth.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But as you say, he then lives right the way through the reign of Elizabeth and he associates with lots of leading figures from her reign, including William Cecil, her great chief minister. So Walter Raleigh, the guy who, of course, puts his cloak in the puddle, but also goes off to found colonies in the New World and to search for El Dorado.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And as you said, he dies in the reign of James I, so in the kind of the post-Tudor age, at the age of 81. And so, yeah, his life spans much of the Tudor age. So I think that's a very good reason to look at him.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But also another reason is that he has a key role to play in what is a crucial turning point in English history, a kind of shifting of England's horizons from the continent of Europe to overseas. So 1558, which is the last year of Mary's reign, a fateful episode, the fall of Calais to the French, which of course had been won by Edward III in the Hundred Years' War, had been
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
kept by England ever since, but it falls to the French in that year. And that effectively is the loss of England's last continental possession. So in a way, that is kind of almost the end of the Hundred Years' War, the real end of the Hundred Years' War. And Mary is devastated by it.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And there's this famous comment she's supposed to have made that when she dies and people cut her open and look at her heart, they will find Calais inscribed on it. Under her sister, so Elizabeth succeeds Mary in that same year of 1558.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Under Elizabeth, her subjects start looking westwards to Ireland, but also beyond Ireland, across the Atlantic to the New World, which the Spanish have begun to colonize. And the English start to think, well, we would quite like a bit of this. And this is the age of the Elizabethan sea dog, ruffs, beards, galleons, all of that. Francis Drake, Sir John Frobisher, all these great characters. Yes.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And Dee knows them. He works with them. And Dee himself is absolutely obsessed by overseas exploration. And he is a particular enthusiast for the idea of planting and keeping colonies in kind of distant continents. And he coins a very portentous phrase to describe what this process of colonizing the new world would look like. And he calls it a British empire.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And he is very possibly, it's debated, but I think generally accepted that he is the first person to coin that phrase. And so he, in a sense, is the first great kind of cheerleader for the idea of a British empire. And definitely it's leading kind of Tudor advocate.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yes, but simultaneously... He has what I guess you could probably call a cult understanding of England's destiny, because as well as being a very practiced astronomer, he's also a very brilliant astrologer, England's most famous astrologer. Over the course of Elizabeth's reign, there are celestial signs that he interprets as presaging the end of days, but more specifically, the fact that
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Before the end of days, Elizabeth will come to be hailed by both Catholics and Protestants across Europe as the last empress. And that this is her great cosmic destiny. Wow. And as Glyn Parry, who's written probably the definitive biography of Dee, the Archcundra of England, says, Elizabeth easily accepted these suggestions. Of course she does. Yeah.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Because, of course, unbelievably flattering to her.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Right. And I think this is the third reason why Dee is so fascinating because he's a reminder of of exactly that age where what today we would call science and the occult arts can kind of merge and bleed into one another. And I guess that it's not just Dee who illustrates this, Elizabeth I does as well.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So she is famously intellectual and brilliant, incredibly learned, very well-educated, very scholarly, very shrewd. But this doesn't stop her from believing all kinds of things that to us today might sound completely mad, such as, for instance, that she's destined to be the last empress before the end of days. And you mentioned alchemy.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
So she and lots of her ministers are absolutely obsessed by this idea that base metals can be turned into gold. And she herself is the only English monarch known to have practiced alchemy personally. And she's very, very keen on it in a way that actually slightly reminds me of the way that Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves have been bigging up AI recently as a kind of a panacea.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
a solution to the problem of stimulating England's economy and kind of clearing the country's national debts and all this kind of thing. This is what Elizabeth thinks alchemy might promise. If only they can find what they call the philosopher's stone, this way of turning kind of lead or whatever into gold, then this would be brilliant. And England's economy will be absolutely flying.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yeah, because they see it simultaneously as being satanic, potentially, but also Catholic, as papist. And of course, as Protestants, they tend to conflate the satanic and the papist. And Dee absolutely understands this for reasons that we will explore because he's sailed very close to the wind a number of times.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And he is actually an obsessively private person and he makes sure to keep his kind of most venturesome occult explorations absolutely secret. And the most extraordinary of these occult explorations are those that take him to Prague, embroil him with this extraordinary figure, this medium, Edward Kelly, and potentially open him up to very serious charges of necromancy.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And essentially, what this great climactic adventure of Dee's life, and it reverberates so powerfully that a series set about vampires and witches in the 21st century can kind of allude to it. Dee wants to learn the language of the angels. And he believes that Kelly is the one man who can access it for him.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And this is because Kelly, I've described him as a medium, but he's more properly what the Elizabethans would have called a scryer, which is a man with a gift for contacting the dimension of the supernatural by gazing into a glass. So a crystal ball, if you see things in a crystal ball, you're a scryer.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
But in the Elizabethan period, more properly into a kind of mirror or a glass or a kind of a shining stone. And Kelly does this, and Dee believes that the figures that Kelly sees in his mirror are indeed angels. But of course, the shadow hangs over this entire venture. What if they are actually demons?
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
Yeah, what if these figures are pushing Dee and Kelly towards satanic ends? And as we will see, the revelations that Kelly supposedly has, do indeed in the end lead him and Dee on a very, very dark path. And it ends in absolutely shocking scandal.
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542. Elizabeth I’s Sorcerer: Angels and Demons in Renaissance Europe
And it's a reminder that the occult is dangerous, both because those who practice it might end up being charged with necromancy, with witchcraft, but also because the supernatural itself is may prove to be dangerous. Crikey. May prove to shelter, you know, potentially deadly peril.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. This episode is brought to you by Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And there were two boys, right? Two boys. And the last we heard of them there in Verona. So they ended their lives literally as two gentlemen of Verona. Yeah.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Right. Well, that's the end of them. What's going on in Pavia? The siege there is still continuing, right?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And to put that into context, he is the first bloke, presumably, to rule unchallenged in Gaul and certainly the top half of Italy for what, 200 years, maybe? Oh, I mean, even longer.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Charles the Prince, girded boldly with gleaming arms, tamed this people through numerous blows and a thousand triumphs. He crushed it down and subjected it to himself with brandished sword. He dragged the battalions of those who in the depths of forests worshipped stock and stone into heavenly kingdoms.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
But his real focus is Central Europe, right? Yes, it is. So Central Europe, there's another people who are called the Avars, who are based in what's now Hungary on the great plain of Pannonia. They are horse lords of the plains, aren't they? They are. So they're a bit like the Huns, you know, they fire bows and arrows from horses. That's their thing. They are not a Germanic people, are they?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Aren't they kind of Turkic or something like that? Maybe nomads from further East. Anyway, they're causing all kinds of trouble in Northern Italy, in Germany, they're kind of ranging around and, raiding and doing all this kind of thing. And Charlemagne decides they're his focus. He's going to deal with them.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Afterwards, he poured over with the salvation-bringing Jew of baptism the untaught Saxons and sent them to the stars of heaven and led the new children of Christ into his hall. So that was a fellow called Paulinus. He was a scholar from Northern Italy. Lovely poem. I think it's a banger. And Paulinus, not just a bishop, but a saint, Tom.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Is that because the Saxons don't have a capital? They don't have state structures? Right. They're tribal confederations. So how can you ever beat them, I guess?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So if you're behaving in a biblical way, that's fine, isn't it? So.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
He becomes one in due course, not when he's written that poem, to be fair. But it's all in the future. Exactly. You get your sainthood partly as a reward for that beautiful poem. Yes, like the poet laureate. So he writes this poem in the year 777. And we are in the realm of Charlemagne, Charles the Great, warlord of the West, great king, great emperor, as we will discover as this story continues.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
What if? Well, let's find out after the break whether he is going to get eternal life or whether he's going to hell. See you then.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Faith, as St Augustine said, is a voluntary thing and not a matter of coercion. A person can be drawn into faith, not forced into it. A person can be forced into baptism, but that person will not advance in faith unless he be an infant. Even after people have received the faith and baptism, their weaker minds should be offered instruction with gentleness.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
For as the Apostle Paul said when he wrote to his followers among the Galatians, I have fed you not with meat, but with milk. So that was a letter written in 796 to a courtier in Charlemagne's train at the time when he's absolutely smiting the Saxons. Tom, about four seconds before I was about to read that, you said, oh, please, can you read that in a Yorkshire accent?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Explain to the listeners why you wanted to hear that.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So, Tom, give us a little bit of context. Charlemagne has been joint king of the Frankish Empire for nine years with his brother, Carloman. But a terrible thing has happened to Carloman. Carloman had a nosebleed, as listeners will remember, and has died. So, Charlemagne is the last man standing. He is. So, give us a little bit of context. We're in the aftermath of the Roman Empire.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Right. And this is because he thinks Charlemagne's let himself down a bit by being so savage, by being so repressive, is it? Essentially, yes.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
This is Alcuin's feeling. So when Alcuin, he looks at this, he tells Charlemagne, doesn't he? He has this image of an infant being given milk. Yeah, he loves that. Let peoples newly brought to Christ be nourished in a mild manner as infants are given milk. If you instruct them brutally, the risk then, their minds being weak, is they will vomit everything up.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
I mean, that's a pretty bold thing to write to this guy who's so powerful, to basically say your entire policy is misguided and is actually counterproductive because they will vomit back up the faith that you're forcing down their throats.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Right. And not just among the Saxons, Charlemagne also believes that his own people worthy of, is correction the right word here? I think it is. Okay. There's this line, let men be chosen for the task of improving knowledge, who have the will and ability to learn and also the desire to instruct others. So basically it's a huge pedagogical educational program among his own people.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
He's genuinely very, very appalled by this. To be fair, it's what so many English writers down the centuries have said about the French, isn't it?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And the great powerhouse of this process is Alcuin's monastery in Tor, isn't it? So Tor, obviously, St. Martin, we've heard loads about St. Martin, how important he was for the Franks. So this is a real sort of hub of scholarship. They're copying out all these classical texts to try and improve the standards of Latin. And they're producing all these collections of scripture.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So the first, actually, these are the first Bibles. Is that right? Explain to people who may be baffled by that how these could possibly be the first Bibles.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
I'd never thought of a question mark as a lightning bolt over a full stop, but that of course is kind of what it is. A slightly wobbly lightning bolt. Yes, so questioning the full stop. Exactly. So they're basically pumping these out, all these Bibles. Yeah. They're readable. They're in a very beautiful, user-friendly kind of format. And they are presumably a tool of uniformity, right? Exactly.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Across Charlemagne's empire. That's what he's after.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Because in every village, every town, every hamlet, there is going to be some parish priest or something who sits standing there with his little book. You know, this is the prayer for this occasion. This is what Jesus would do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, in a way that wasn't the case 100 or 200 years before this.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
No, he ends up with a much grander title. He does. So maybe we will explore the story of that grander title, his Imperial title, in the final episode. And because we're feeling festive, Tom, we will explore that story. The climax of this mighty series is... It will be out not on Thursday, as usual, but it'll be on Wednesday, Christmas Day, the 25th of December.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And there is actually a very good historical reason for that, isn't there, which we will explore next time. Because, obviously, you could listen to it straight away if you're a member of the Rest Is History Club. And you can always join that club at therestishistory.com. But the best time to listen to that episode is definitely going to be Christmas Day.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
It's one of the most – I read in your notes – one of the most iconic moments in in the whole of European history. The scene is Rome, the year is AD 800, and the date is Christmas Day. So please join us for that. And on that bombshell, goodbye. Bye-bye. Hello, everybody. Dominic Sandbrook here. And I'm Tom Holland. And we have some incredibly exciting news to tell you, don't we, Dominic? We do.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So we often say we've got exciting news, but this is genuinely very, very exciting news. We are thrilled to announce that after the sellout show that we did earlier this year, The Rest Is History will be returning to the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday, the 4th of May to perform live once again with an orchestra.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
For Charlemagne. Oh, that's nice. So people who might be a little bit confused, these are Saxons in what is now Germany. This is not Anglo-Saxon. Yes, so Saxony. Yeah, in Saxony. So Lower Saxony. To give people a sort of sense, that's the northern bit of kind of Western Germany at this point. Saxony then. Yeah, kind of below Denmark. Yeah, exactly. Right. So Charlemagne, Tom. Charles the Great.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So that first show that we did this year was a truly glorious experience. And we are hoping that this, too, will be an unforgettable night. There'll be great music. We'll be telling great stories. We'll be delving into the history. So you had better get your hands on tickets for the show as soon as you can. And these tickets will be available from www.patreon.com.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
That is the Rest Is History live with the Philharmonia Orchestra Tchaikovsky and Wagner. It's at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday, the 4th of May. Now, the tickets are available for members on Wednesday, the 18th of December and for the general public on Thursday, the 19th of December. And please make sure that you don't miss it.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Well, here is a reminder that we at therestishistory.com offer gift memberships. So if you're good at dropping hints or if you're short on a present for a family member, for a friend or for a partner, Tom and I would like to remind you of the ultimate Christmas stocking filler. And it is, of course, a subscription to the Rest Is History Club, which is full to the brim with bonus episodes.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
It's got access to the much-loved Discord chat community. It's got newsletters. It's got all kinds of goodies. Simply go to therestishistory.com and look for gifts.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
After all, Christmas is just around the corner. And a very happy coincidence, our first official Rest Is History book is now out as the perfect storybook. stocking-sized paperback.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
It's sure to make the festive period much more entertaining for all involved, and it is available in bookshops everywhere now.
The Rest Is History
524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
He's a funny character, isn't he, Charlemagne? Lots of people have heard of Charlemagne. But I think it's fair to say that a lot of people know no more about him than his name. So he is a new figure. He is an entirely sui generis, an exceptional figure in European history because he's different from all the warlords who've gone before him. Am I right? He's not radically different.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Sinister forces are scouring the globe for the secret to an ancient power, and only one person can stop them. Indiana Jones. Adventure Calls.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
So sort of sticking labels on people, very Roman thing to do to kind of classify people and say, these are these people and they have red hair and these are their habits and all that kind of thing.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
On the Franks, presumably now at this point, Charlemagne very much sees himself as the heir, doesn't he, to the Roman inheritance, do you think?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And is that you or is that Paulinus? Well, very hard to tell us apart, I think.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
But Saxony is not the only place that he's looking at, is he? Because he's looking beyond the frontiers of what was once Gaul, which is now Francia. And he's also looking to Italy, isn't he? Because Italy is still a bit of a lodestar for people who are living in the ruins of the Roman Empire, the inheritance of Rome and so on. So what's going on in Italy?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Italy is now under the sway of the Lombards, is that right?
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
It will immediately start suggesting common interview questions. And then if you answer out loud, it will give you feedback. And yes, in real time. If you haven't tried it yet, it's definitely worth checking it out. So download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. You must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live. 70,000 people are here and Bob Dylan is the reason for it.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And Desiderius also is harbouring a rival claimant to the throne of Francia. So basically, when this bloke died of a nosebleed, Charlemagne's brother, Carloman, his wife and sons had gone off and taken refuge with the Lombards, hadn't they? So that's a bit of a worry for Charlemagne that the wife and the sons... hanging around in what's now Lombardy.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
And she speaks the truth there. Do you think that's plausible? I mean, Charlemagne is a man of real politique and so is Desiderius. Do you think Desiderius really is thinking, oh, I'm just really bitter about this family row? And that's the single biggest thing in his decision making.
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524. Charlemagne: Pagan Killer (Part 2)
Or do you think he thinks, no, I'd rather keep a hold of these boys because they're such a powerful political pawn for me?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
What would make people even more nervous is the fact that the throne is claimed by rival half-brothers. Oh, come on. This is poor. This is terrible. Yeah. So the first of these is a guy called Edward, who is very vicious, kind of very unstable, probably illegitimate. But he is in his teens. The second one is a young boy called Athelred, who is the son of the anointed queen.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So the queen who had sat beside Edgar at the great coronation in Bath. And this is the lady Alfreda. She's very powerful. She's very ambitious. And so very keen to see her son Athelred on the throne. But the problem is Athelred is only seven. And the monarchy is elective.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the Witan, who is the kind of the assembly of the great men, the great thanes, and the Eldermen, who are the kind of the guys who rule over the individual counties in England, they meet up and they decide that Edward should become king.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yeah, the unstable one. So Alfreda, the queen, is very cross and she retires. Or does she? Because in 978, so that's three years after Edward has ascended to the throne, Alfreda is holidaying near the town of Corfe on the Dorset coast in the south of England. And Edward goes hunting near there. And he's riding through the forest, kind of blowing on his horn. And suddenly, a group of armed men
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
step out of the undergrowth, confront him, surround him. They seize him by his right arm. They break it. Another guy pulls out a dagger, stabs it into the side of the king. Edward, by this point, dying. His horse goes galloping away. His foot gets caught in the stirrup. He's kind of dragged, you know, his head smashing on rocks as he goes along.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
dragged away through brambles and undergrowth, and the assassins follow him, get hold of his corpse, and throw it into a bog.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
But the amazing thing is, despite this, the kingdom does not fall to pieces. And actually, the fact that Edward's murder is seen as something utterly shocking, which it is, is kind of evidence, I think, of just how habituated people in England by this point had become to the rule of law.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
In fact, James Campbell points out that Edward was the first man of high blood to have perished as a result of civil strife among the English for more than 50 years. So that's a very, very kind of striking statistic. And Athelred, even though he's 10, he has lots of good people and indeed a very effective woman behind him.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So Alfreda, his mother, she's very, very shrewd political operator, whether she was behind the merger or not, very much up for grabs. She's on holiday there by coincidence. Who knows? But definitely she, you know, she plays a good hand. So she makes sure that Edward's followers are given their share of kind of honours and... all that kind of stuff. Edward's own body is treated with great respect.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
It's pulled out of the bog, put in a tomb, and visitors to the tomb start to report incredible miracles. In due course, Edward will come to be known as Edward the Martyr. Athelred, as the only surviving male member of the And he is raised by his advisors, by his mother, to respect his heritage and to appreciate all the resources that he can command as the King of England.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yes, a year, as you said, of unbelievable drama. And as Edward Augustus Freeman said, a year that is perhaps the decisive dividing line in English history. And the drama revolves, I suppose, at its most basic around three men, doesn't it? Yeah. So you have the King of England, who comes to the throne on the 5th of January, 1066, Harold Godwinson.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So what Edgar and now Athelred in turn are finessing is a kind of very, very sophisticated apparatus of state intrusion. So there are officials who know how much land a certain person may give and therefore how much money they should be paying. And this ability of the English kings to raise cash is a crucial part of what makes England so rich and will be a very important part of this story. Right.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Under Arthur Redd, England becomes steadily ever more prosperous. The towns that Alfred had founded, the Burrs, they're flourishing. Markets are full of traders from across Northern Europe. You have the great men of the kingdom, the Eldermen, the Thanes. They're lavishing gold and incense and silks on their local churches and on themselves.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And Æthelred's own treasure chests are starting to fill to overflowing.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Well, you say Danes, and they are called Danes. That is a collective group for what we would perhaps call the Vikings. But there is also a particularly predatory Viking who comes from the North Way, what today we would call Norway. And this is a very sinister and charismatic figure called Olaf Tryggvason. Mm-hmm.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And I think the fact he comes from the North Way is an important part of his mystique, because even for the Danes, the North Way is seen as a place of wizards and sorcerers and so on. And even the women are meant to have terrifying beards. So it has a certain reputation.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And Tryggvason himself is a notorious sorcerer, and he defines the future by throwing birds' bones and kind of reading the way in which they land and And it wins him the very sinister nickname of Cracker Ben or Crowbone. And he is also a very, very effective warrior. In fact, reportedly he's ambidextrous, so he can throw spears with both hands.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And he is the hero of a kind of myriad gore-soaked praise song. And in 991, Trigvason and his fellow freebooters, a kind of great fleet of Vikings, are cornered on land at Malden in Essex, so south of East Anglia. And they're confronted by the, the Elderman of Essex, a guy called Brit North and the Vikings win and Brit North is killed.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And over the course of 1066, he fights two great battles against invaders who are aiming to topple him from his throne. And the first of these invaders, Harold Hardrada, the hard ruler, the King of Norway, he fails in his attempt. But the second invader, William the Duke of Normandy, succeeds. And Harold perishes in this great battle fought outside Hastings.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Isn't that a good fact? I mean, that kind of Tolkien-esque quality of glamour and magic and tragedy does hang over this story. And unsurprisingly, because for Tolkien, the Norman Conquest was the greatest tragedy in the history of England. And he wanted to write Lord of the Rings to give the English back the mythology that he thought they had lost as a result of the conquest.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Ethelred, not a kind of Tolkien-esque hero, really. He decides that the best way to deal with this crisis is to buy the Vikings off. And so he uses his state apparatus to raise £10,000 worth of taxes. which inevitably comes to be called the Danegeld, the gold that is being paid to the Danes. Equally inevitably, in 994, Olaf Tryggvason is back for more. This time, he doesn't just hover the coast.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
He leads an assault directly on London. It gets beaten back, but he then goes on a kind of great ravaging raid across the heartlands of Wessex. And this, of course, is absolutely an open challenge to Athelred. It's an attempt to shred his authority because Wessex is the heart of the entire English kingdom. And the rays just keep coming and coming. Treasure is stripped from churches.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Athelred's subjects are enslaved. And this is a hideous experience, both for men and women. So we have an account by a poet who exults over a rival who had been abducted by slavers. And he describes how this rival of his was subjected to insults and urinated upon and then stripped naked, forced by the Vikings to perform the sexual service of a wife. For women, even worse.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So we have a bishop who laments the enthusiasm of Vikings for gang rape, the practice of foul sin upon a single woman, the bishop wrote, one after another, like dogs that care not about filth. So this is hideous. It's unsurprising. that under their breath, the English begin to apply a punning title to Athelred. Athelred means well-advised, nobly advised.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
They start to call him Unrad, the badly advised, the ill-advised, which in due course will be anglicised to become... The unready.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And Dominic, I know you love a Scandinavian museum. I do. And pretty much every major museum in Denmark or Norway or whatever. I mean, huge great piles of silver coins that have come from England.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Also, Æthelred has a problem that Alfred did not, and that is the fact that Tryggvason and his fellow Vikings, when they plunder their loot or get the Danegeld or take their slaves, they don't have to sail back directly to Scandinavia because there are welcoming ports and markets much closer to England, just across the Channel. These ports and these markets
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
are in a realm so welcoming to the Northmen that it had even come to bear their name. And this is Normandy. Normandy.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
I would say the most decisive battle in not just English, but British history. He is then crowned king on Christmas Day in 1066. And he establishes Norman rule permanently over a conquered people.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So Rollo Rolf, he was a Viking warlord who, with a whole load of other Vikings, had occupied the lower reaches of the Seine. And... They kind of sailed up the Seine and they had basically set about smashing up all the props of Frankish power that they discovered. So they'd wiped out all traces of bureaucracy. They had murdered all the local nobility. And
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
By about 900, all the region of the Senestri had basically become what Frankish chroniclers called Invia, which essentially is a place where no one has any authority. It's wasted. It's rubble-strewn. The spear alone rules everything. It's almost a kind of hellish wasteland and a place without noblemen or churches that you can loot is obviously no good for Vikings.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And so Rollo heads south with all the lads looking for better pickings and he gets confronted there by the Frankish king. Charles the Simple. Charles the Simple. Yes. So all the Frankish kings have mad, mad soubriquets. And Charles the Simple, he defeats Rollo, but he doesn't destroy him. And essentially, Charles the Simple thinks, well, I think we can come to a deal.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
This is where in that story that you read, the detail of the sweet spring and Rollo being cleansed of leprosy comes in because the Frankish king makes Rollo an offer. He can have the lands around the Seine, the Invia, the lands that he and the Vikings have devastated. But in return, he has to be baptised. He has to accept Christ. And Rollo accepts. And in 912, he's baptised by the Bishop of Rouen.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So Rouen is very much situated in this kind of dimension of Invia. And he's pretty much the only kind of symbol of Frankish authority that survived the onslaught of the Vikings. Do you want a nice fact about that?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Anyway, you diverge me from pointing out that in that story, the waters of the spring are the waters of baptism. So they've now been cleansed. And what about these nice birds? The birds are immigrants to Rollo's realm. So they are drawn from across the Viking world and actually beyond as well. But they are all warriors. And that's the significance of their red wings.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
These symbolise the swords dipped in blood. So one people fashioned out of a mixture of different ones. That's how they're described.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Well, yes. I mean, it's a fascinating topic and furiously debated. And the answer to that, I think, evolves over the course of time. So there is no question that a century after Rollo's baptism, this kind of lingering hint of the Viking endures in Normandy.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Absolutely, because Norman rule ends up being established over all those parts of the British Isles. And I would say that the impact of the Battle of Hastings and the Norman Conquest reverberates far beyond our islands to go all Churchillian.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So Rollo himself on his deathbed is supposed to have repented his baptism and to have ordered a hundred Christian captives beheaded before him in honour of his native gods. That's like his last gesture on earth. So basically the baptism thing hasn't entirely worked out well there. Yeah.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
His son, the brilliantly named William Longsword, had been a famous patron of these kind of praise singers, these bards who turn up and kind of go on about how brilliant their patron is, how many people they've killed, lots of violence and gloating and bragging and so on.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yes, it's... And Valkyries weaving tapestries out of the intestines of slaughtered enemies, that kind of thing. That's what's going on. And the son of William Longsword, so Rollo's grandson, a guy called Richard the Fearless, he's a remarkable man. He rules for 54 years and he's quite old by the time he dies. And in his old age, he comes to resemble Odin.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
the All-Father, the King of the Gods, kind of bright-eyed, long-bearded. And it was said of him that after dark, he would wander the streets of Rouen cloaked, alone, and there he would fight with the shades of the dead. And so it's not surprising that he's called by his enemies, the Lord of the Vikings.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So much so that in 991, when Æthelred has complained to the Pope, the Pope says, stop hosting Viking ships. And Richard says, okay, yeah, whatever. but he carries on hosting them. And on top of that, his wife is a Dane, meaning that his children are half Danish. And when he dies in 996, his tomb is not in a church, but a great earthen mound looking out to sea. So like something out of Beowulf.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So it's not surprising that when Athelred gets reports that these Viking ships with their English loot and captives are going to Norman ports, he's not surprised in the slightest. This is what he would expect.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Is that fair? And Frankish. So the title that they are given is the Count of Rouen. That's a Latinate title. Again, you can see the way in which even their language is changing by the fact that Rollo's son is William. That is not a Viking name. William is praised by a monk as a lover of peace and a lover and consoler of the poor and a defender of orphans and a protector of widows. Is that true?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Well, those are lines that are written to commemorate his murder by the Count of Flanders. William had gone to meet the Count of Flanders under truce. And as a good Christian who had sworn an oath not to take a sword, he had assumed that the Count of Flanders would do the same. And poor old William ends up being cut down.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So in a sense, he's proven himself more Christian than the Count of Flanders. And we mentioned Richard the Fearless, this guy who looks like Odin, kind of wandering around and fighting the dead. His son is also called Richard, and he becomes so admired for his piety that he is given the title Richard the Good. And he's a great founder of monasteries. He's a great patron of churches.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
He has excellent relations with the king of, let's call him the king of France by this point, you know, West Francia, this, this kind of realm that is evolving out of what had been the empire of Charlemagne and, and, and kind of becoming the kingdom of France. It won't be called France until much later, but I think we can call it France without too much risk of anachronism. And, and,
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Richard the Good, he's a loyal ally of the French king. And I think he's kind of angling for a promotion. He's a bit bored of being the Count of Rouen. He started to call himself the Duke of Normandy and he wants the French king and everyone else to kind of buy into this as well. And And so you can see that the Viking and the Christian and the Frankish are all part of the mix.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And because you have this Christian element, there is actually something there for Athelred to play with.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
I mean, the answer is given as a joke in probably the most famous comic version of English history ever written, 1066 and all that. And the title is very striking. I mean, the assumption that 1066 is what English history is all about. So it's written in 1930 when the British Empire was still very much a going concern.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Well, I don't think he wants to do that because he can see that Normandy hasn't turned out brilliantly. He doesn't want that. So it's actually an object lesson in what to avoid. Right. And also, there are lots of Danes in England who have been settled there since the previous century. Yeah. And there is the suspicion that they are kind of helping out the Vikings when they come. A fifth column.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
A fifth column. So I don't think he wants to do that. But obviously, one of the things he can do is to say to the Viking warlords, as well as giving them money... He could say, you know, you could use this money to go off and found a Christian kingdom back in Scandinavia. And the person that he particularly works on is the most sinister and formidable of all his opponents.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And that is Olaf Tryggvason. So the deal is. he will give Olaf Tryggvason, even by the standards of the Danegeld, a massive amount of money. So he raises £16,000. I mean, that is an obscene amount of money. But in return, Tryggvason has to accept baptism at the hands of Athelstan, who will become his godfather.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
It's possible he has been baptised before, either in the Scilly Islands or in Denmark, but it is this great ceremony which is held in the heartlands of Wessex which is the kind of the definitive entry of Olaf Tryggvason into the Christian people. And this policy, Athelred's policy, his wheeze works brilliantly. So Tryggvason, armed with this cash and baptised as a Christian,
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
He becomes fired with the zeal of a true convert. He becomes convinced that Christ has personally chosen him to become king of the Northway and to bring his countrymen to baptism. And so he heads back home, kind of burning and looting and enslaving as he goes in the name of the Prince of Peace. And Æthelred, back in England, can breathe an enormous sigh of relief.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
He can start to look on Olaf Tryggvason almost as an ally because when Olaf goes back to Norway, he does so accompanied by an English bishop. And when he arrives in Norway, he's got all this money behind him so he can hire... Large, large numbers of followers who were attracted as well by the fame of his name. And he very rapidly topples the local strongman.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
The strongman runs away, ends up hiding in a pigsty, and there he is decapitated by his own thrall. Wow. That is the kind of fate that any great conqueror would wish on his rival. And Olaf Tryggvason, he sets about trying to convert Norway to Christianity. So he builds the first church in Norway. He founds Trondheim. And what he is doing, he's not just behaving...
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
As a Christian, but specifically as a Christian king.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the authors of that book are trying to explain why the Norman Conquest matters. And they say the Norman Conquest was a good thing As from this time onwards, England stopped being conquered and thus was able to become top nation. Which is a joke, of course, but it hints at the long-term significance of 1066 because the people, the country that is forged as a result of the Norman Conquest...
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
I'm not sure they quite think that. And it's further complicated by the fact that actually you're not allowed under the rulings of the church fathers to speculate. You're not allowed. But you can sense, I think, in many things that English churchmen are writing, that there is a sense that the millennial anniversary of the birth of Christ, that something is kind of looming.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So back in 971, the Archbishop of York wrote, had warned in very stern tones. So veiled by secrecy is the end of days that no one in the entire world, no matter how holy, nor even anyone in heaven except the Lord alone has ever known when it will come. So that's the standard Christian teaching. You know, don't speculate. But the bishop then, he can't leave it alone.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And so he ends his sermon by declaring all the signs and forewarnings that our Lord told us would herald doomsday have come to pass. So basically, don't speculate. Oh my God, it's going to happen. That's essentially where he's at.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Right. And the idea that Æthelred is some kind of wuss, that in a way he is less prone to violence than, say, a Viking chieftain, couldn't be more wrong. Actually, he's more than capable when he gets his act together and has the opportunity to focus on external enemies. Right.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
to feel that going and attacking them is absolutely God's will and that this is the best way to prepare England for the millennial challenges or opportunities that may be approaching. So in the year 1000 itself, he leads an expedition deep into Scotland, ravaging away just like a Viking might. And in the same year, he actually sends an expedition across the channel to launch a raid on Normandy.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And later Norman sources will say that this was beaten off. But I I'm not convinced by that because it certainly seems to have served Æthelred's purposes, which is essentially to intimidate the Count of Rouen, or the Duke of Normandy, whatever you want to call him, into behaving, into not being so welcoming to the pirates who've been preying on England.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Those people in due course will go on to settle North America, to rule the largest global empire the world has ever seen, to settle entire continents. And I mean, just to focus on one obvious way in which the Norman conquest impacts not just England, but the whole world.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the most striking evidence for this comes early in 1002, when Richard the Good, the Duke of Normandy, agrees to marry his sister, Emma, to Æthelred. And it is recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Then in the spring, the lady, Richard's daughter, came to this land. And Emma, on her arrival, is given an English name, so Alf Giffu.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
We don't know how she felt about that, but we'll continue to call her Emma. And she is anointed as queen. And Æthelred is the first English king to marry a foreign bride since the father of Alfred the Great. And it is a marker of his increasingly proactive and assertive exercise of policy. And
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
The English people, looking at Athelred, looking at the sister of the Duke of Normandy, Emma, sat beside him. They could start to feel that perhaps the worst is over, that actually perhaps what the millennium is bringing is the promise of a kind of universal and eternal age of peace.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
and that the wheat field of England's kingdom, and I use that metaphor pointedly, at last it's been secured against all the trampling of Viking feet and bloody flames and blight and storms and ruin, that at last the harvest time for England is come.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So the wheat field, I think to any devout Christian listening to that would immediately have reminded them of Christ's words as recorded in the New Testament. So Ethelred undoubtedly enjoyed
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
is looking to the words of christ for guidance how he should rule his king and christ had said he who sows the good seed is the son of man the field is the world and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom the weeds are the sons of the evil one and the enemy who sowed them is the devil the harvest is the close of the age and the
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. And so if it is the close of the age, if this is what the millennium portends, then does that mean that it is time to gather the weeds and consign them to flames?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yeah. And so who might these weeds be? Well, so Trigvason and his men have gone, but there are lots of other Northmen. or Danes. So the English tend to call all the Northmen Danes as a collective. And these people are living openly in the towns of England. And many of these are recent arrivals, lots of them claiming to be merchants. But, you know, can you be sure?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Others are mercenaries, as you said, who've been employed by Æthelred himself.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
is the fact that English, the language of England, is now the world's global lingua franca as a result of the centuries that follow the Norman Conquest. And that's why people in Australia or New Zealand or America... will be listening to this and understanding it. And the language that we are speaking is one that bears massive witness to the fusion of Old English and French.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
They're armed men. Right. And so how can Æthelred know what atrocities and rebellions they might not be plotting? And more than that, they're a fifth column. What if Viking raiders come back from overseas? These are a standing danger. And so it is that Æthelred decides on a fateful, millennially tinged policy.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So to quote him, his own words, a decree was sent out by me with the counsel of my leading men and magnates to the effect that all the Danes who had sprung up in the island, sprouting like weeds among the wheat. So that absolutely nails it. This, you know, Ethelred has that biblical verse in mind, were to be destroyed by a most just extermination.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And this decree was to be put into effect even as far as time.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Well, what do you think, Tom? I mean, I think it's clear that the apparatus of the English state, very effective at raising taxes, is also very effective at organising a pogrom. And there is undoubtedly a lot of slaughter. I mean, I think it's improbable that all the Danes in England are killed just because there are so many of them.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the process of identifying who exactly is a Dane is also complex. But there's no question that those who are targeted for elimination are massacred with extreme prejudice. And we actually have archaeological evidence for this. So we're told that in Oxford... Danes are incinerated as they huddle together for protection in church. And in 2008, archaeologists were excavating in the grounds of St.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
John's College in Oxford, and they found the skeletons of 37 young men and children who presumably were victims of this particular massacre. And it's likely hundreds perished. And precisely because Æthelred's language is so overtly apocalyptic, this bloodshed must have seemed to everyone in England kind of freighted with ominous meaning.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
The sense that if these are the weeds who've been planted by the devil, then Æthelred and the English must be engaged in a battle with satanic powers. Mm-hmm. And whether that's entirely reassurance, of course. I mean, the sense that Antichrist or whoever may be kind of lurking on the orders, that is something to worry about.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
But there is also another more pressing, less supernatural cause of worry, which is that the Danes back in Denmark... They have a king, and what's he going to make of it? There is a report. It's very late, so not entirely reliable. But the fact that it comes to be reported, I think, points to the risk that Æthelred has taken.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
This report is that one of the women who were killed in the massacre was a woman called Gunnhilde, and that she was the sister of the king of Denmark. And how is this going to go down across the waters of the North Sea?
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Terrifying. Definitely had them. So in our next episode, those cold blue eyes will be fixed on England with consequences that we will be exploring. And if you want to hear that, and indeed the rest of this series, all four episodes, you will get them if you are already a member of the Restless History Club. And if you're not, you can go to therestesshistory.com and sign up.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So that's why I think that this reverberates far beyond this kind of I mean, let's be honest, in the 11th century, it's a fairly unimportant kind of corner of the Eurasian landmass. I mean, it's not even part of the Eurasian landmass. He hates Britain. I mean, that is shocking. I don't, because as I've been saying, you know, great things await.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
But I do think that this is a story that really matters. And it's a story that, like the French Revolution, you know, we did one episode on the French Revolution and we've expanded it. We also did one episode on 1066 early in this podcast, and we're going to expand on that. I mean, not quite to the length of the French Revolution.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yeah. So Harold is often called the last English king. I mean, whether he is, we'll look at in due course. But he's indisputably the king of a very distinctive, sophisticated and ultimately doomed kind of civilization, that of Anglo-Saxon England. Harold Hardrada, probably the most famous warrior of his day.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
is likewise the last embodiment of an order that is starting to fade, and that's the Viking world. William, the Duke of Normandy, himself has Viking ancestry, but he's also the embodiment of a great revolution in the affairs of Christendom, probably Europe's first. In that sense, he is the face of the future. Far be it from me to disagree with Regent's Professor of History at Oxford.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
But I think Freeman is wrong in saying that England would have carried on as it had done had the Norman conquest not happened. Because I think actually, as we will see, this revolution that William embodies is so profound and overwhelming that it would have transformed England and Britain more generally, no matter what.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yes. It's like walking down Muggers Alley with a large diamond necklace sticking out of your back pocket. England is by far the wealthiest and best governed realm in Northern Europe in the 11th century. And I mean, it's not up there with, say, the Byzantine Empire or Al-Andalus, the great Muslim caliphate in Spain.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
But definitely, compared to the empire that Charlemagne had ruled, for instance, the great empire of the Franks, or let alone the kingdoms of Ireland or Scotland or of Scandinavia, it is remarkably centralised, it is remarkably urbanised, and it is incredibly rich. And that is what makes it the great prize.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
I think a good way to answer that question is to go back to a scene almost a century before the Battle of Hastings. And this is the coronation of Edgar in the year 973 in what had been the Roman city of Bath. And Edgar rules as a descendant of a man called Kurdic. who was the legendary founder of a Saxon kingdom in the south of England, the West Saxons, so the kingdom of Wessex.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the line of kings that descend from him all the way down from the first arrival of the Angles and the Saxons in England all the way down to Edgar in the 10th century, they're called the Kurdic Ingas. And they have an incredible prestige because most germainly of all, Edgar is the descendant not just of Kurdic, but of Alfred the Great. Very much a friend of the show. I'd say a hero of the show.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yeah, so burrs, which are not just fortified, but also stimulate trades, therefore to make England rich. And he had not only flung the Danes, the Northmen, the Wikingas, as the English call them, robbers or Vikings, out of Wessex, but also out of a large chunk of Mercia, which is the kingdom to the north, so in what is now the Midlands of England.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And he had done this in a way that the Mercians are kind of under his authority, but they don't feel like a conquered people. And the genius of Alfred is to promote the idea that the Saxons, the people that he rules, and the Angles, the Mercians, the people of East Anglia, Northumbria, further north, that these are a kind of single people.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
So Alfred rules as the Rex Anglosaxonum, the king of the Anglo-Saxons. And this process of absorbing the various English-speaking peoples of Britain is peoples who, before the coming of the Vikings, had lived in separate kingdoms. This continues under his son, Edward, and his daughter, Æthelflaed, and under his grandson, Æthelstan.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
It is Æthelstan who completes the creation of effectively a united kingdom of England. Yeah, Inglalond, they call it, don't they? Inglalond, the land of the Angles. And both the Saxons and the Angles start to call themselves the Anglekin, which I think you can legitimately start to call the English by this period. So Edgar...
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Yes. So to quote James Campbell, who's the historian of this process, who is best associated with the idea that this United Kingdom of England is a nation state. He says of it, the creation of the English state was perhaps the most remarkable and certainly the most lasting feat of statecraft in 10th century Europe.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And in a way, the coronation of Edgar at Bath, and it's the second of his reign, he's already had one, but now he wants to kind of really emphasize the degree to which he's a kind of imperial figure. This is why he's having himself crowned amid the Roman ruins of Bath. But he also has himself anointed as the kings of Israel had done. So he's casting himself as an English king.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And of course, as Charlemagne, the great Frankish emperor who'd been crowned in Rome had done. So Edgar is also kind of laying claim To that tradition. And of course, as listeners in Scotland and Wales will know, this isn't necessarily good news for the princes of Wales or Scotland.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And in fact, Edgar's next stunt after his coronation in Bath is to have himself rowed down the River Dee by various kind of princelings that he summoned, Welsh princelings.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Is that right? Yes, he absolutely will. And he will inflict punishment on entire counties. So in 969, some merchants from York are kidnapped by robbers in Kent. And Edgar's response to this is to ravage the entire county. And ravaging is going to be a theme of this series. And it essentially means you lay waste to everything.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
Sincere policies for a happier England. So that's one aspect of Edgar's reign. But the other, you talked about the internal stability. I mean, it's tribute to the remarkable feat of Alfred and his heirs that they have been able to foster a kind of unitary national identity that is shared by peoples of the formerly independent kingdoms of Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia, Northumbria.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
And the way in which the Kurdic ingas, the kings who descend from the line of Kurdic, have been able to do that is because they have, as partners in their great project, a unitary church. So you can have Northumbrian saints being celebrated in Wessex and vice versa. You have kind of a common language. They're very strong regional variants, but essentially people can kind of understand.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
If you're from Devon, you can probably just about understand someone from Northumbria. And perhaps most crucially of all, there is a single currency. So there is a kingdom-wide uniformity of design, and these coins are under the firm control of royal moneyers. So no one else is allowed to mint coins. And Edgar issues a formal decree.
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548. The Road to 1066: Anglo-Saxon Apocalypse (Part 1)
One coinage shall be current throughout all the king's realm, and no one shall refuse it. And there is a massive contrast here with what is happening on the continent right where basically everyone is issuing coins, bishops, princes, dukes, counts, whatever. They're all kind of at it.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So that is the scene at Antwerp, a great port in Belgium, from where the steamships head west and south to the Congo Free State in the late 1890s, as described by a barrel-chested, handlebar moustachioed young man called Edmund Dean Morell. And Dominic, I hope that you admire the way in which I evoked the sense of a barrel-chested, handlebar-moustached young man there.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
I mean, there is, of course... A lot going on there. There's a lot going on there. But just to point out that, of course... Britain's preponderance in the anti-slavery campaign, and now as is being proposed in the campaign against the depredations in the Congo, is dependent on her global power. Yes, of course. Dependent on the Navy and dependent by implication on the possession of her empire.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And so essentially what is being offered is a kind of form of liberal imperialism, isn't it? Absolutely it is. That the British Empire exists as a force for good. And I mean, this is something that has been manifest in the campaign against slavery right from the time of Napoleon. So the Congress of Vienna, it is mass demonstrations in Britain.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
that forces Lord Castlereagh, the Foreign Secretary, to go to the Congress of Vienna and say, guys, I'm really sorry. We've got to write in all this anti-slavery stuff. And kind of the same thing is happening now because the motion is carried in the Commons and it is proposed that all the countries that had been participants in the Berlin Conference should get together and press...
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
for a Congo state that is governed with humanity.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So John Banville will be talking about him because, in John Banville's opinion, Roger Casement is the greatest of Irishmen. Right. Right. High praise.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Well, I think the assumption is, isn't it, on the darkening sense Conrad has of imperialism derives a lot from Casement.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But also lurking in that sense of the shameful system, the infamous shameful system. I mean, is the system that he's talking about specifically the Belgian Congo? Right. Or is it the broader apparatus of imperialism per se? Exactly. And Casement is on a kind of journey, isn't he, that will lead him to condemn not just Leopold's empire in the Congo, but imperialism full stop.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Hogschild describes it, I thought, in fascinating terms, the language that amnesty and similar groups would later make their own formal and sober, assessing the reliability of various witnesses filled with references to laws and statistics and accompanied by appendices and depositions. And that's the key, isn't it? That it's not written in a tone of, moral outrage.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
It's sober, cool, designed to appeal to bureaucrats and functionaries.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
The reason we're talking about this guy, Edmund D. Morell, is that basically he is the hero of today's episode, isn't he? He is the man who draws the crimes of King Leopold's Congo Free State to the world's attention. and is probably the most effective human rights campaigner of the 20th century. He establishes the template for all the human rights campaigns that have followed.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But this will become the key point of divergence between Morel and Casement. Because for Morel, Congo is sui generis. It's hideous. It has nothing to do with the broader imperial context. And Casement will come to a very different conclusion.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
You see, I find that odd because I would have thought that Casement would be Bulldog because he's got John, his bulldog.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
I mean, the thing about that is Conan Doyle is very keen, say, on the war against the birds in South Africa that the British are fighting. So he sees no contradiction between supporting British imperialism in South Africa and excoriating Belgian imperialism in the Congo.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
I mean, the thing is that he is kind of going with the grain of British public opinion. Part of their patriotism is a sense that this is the country that abolished the slave trade, they're on the side of the angels, all of that. But in government, there is still a kind of a slight cynicism, a slightly more Machiavellian approach to things.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So there's a Belgian newspaper editor who is quoted by Hochseld, who once shrewdly remarked that Lord Salisbury, who was prime minister throughout much of this period... is, and I quote, is not a man to care much about the fate of the blacks any more than that of the Armenians or the Bulgarians.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And Morel himself writing about Sir Edward Grey, Foreign Secretary, of course, in the build-up to the... Great hero of yours, Tom. Great hero of mine. Great fisherman. Great bird watcher. However, Morell does say of Sir Edward Grey that he would act only when kicked. And if the process of kicking is stopped, he will do nothing. And basically Morell sees it as his job to do that kicking.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Can I just read what you've put in your notes, the concluding question? So just a quote. This is what you've written, Dominic. So the tide seems to be turning, but will this be enough to trouble Leopold? How will he fight back? And how does it involve one of the, and now capitals, fattest men in history?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So that was King Leopold II, King of the Belgians, as ventriloquized by Mark Twain in his satirical monologue, King Leopold's Soliloquy, which he published in 1905. Mark Twain, of course, one of the greatest American writers. And we've already had a lot of great writers in this series, but it's good to get Twain in, isn't it?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Am I right that she was probably pimped by a guy who'd been her lover? That's right. Who's a former soldier called Antoine Emmanuel Durieux. And as we will see, he remains very much on the scene. He's always lurking in the background, adding to the general quality of moral probity.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Well, it's what South Africa did during the apartheid campaign. Of course. And I suppose it's also, to a degree, kind of what big tobacco or big oil tend to do.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Is this the same Kaiser who is leading the country that is simultaneously practicing genocide in Namibia?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But also, is it as in the abolitionist movement, that there is a kind of congruity, a moral congruity between British and American takes on this?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And he's a man who knows the world. I mean, he's been around the world. He can absolutely understand how this could happen.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
How large is he? Just so we get that established.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So heavy. One journalist said he made President Taft look like a top worker in a team of acrobats.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And that is very much dependent on the company retaining the favor of Leopold II personally, isn't it?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Because I remember when that campaign is launched that leads to the United States being the first country to recognise Leopold's jurisdiction over the Congo, there was somebody said, oh, he's the kind of person who gives kings a good name. Yeah. But presumably the fact that he is a king...
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
I mean, it's interesting that it seems genuinely to have shocked him.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But the impression I've had is that everybody there knows what's going on.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
A steamer moored alongside. The musical chimes ringing from the old cathedral spire. The sound of the Brabant song, the Belgian national anthem. On the quay and on the steamer's decks, a jostling motley crowd. Military uniforms. The flutter of women's dresses. Ship's officers gliding to and fro. The hatches battening down. Steam getting up.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
report not sensational at all the individual statements were not released the witness statements they actually weren't open to researchers until the 1980s but they do preserve the voices of the congolese so throughout this story we've been saying we haven't got them but now we do have them yeah do you want to read a couple of extracts tom um to give yeah so you yeah so you've not included the most shocking but here's a flavor so he's talking about an official
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
He told his sentries to tie us to two trees with our feet off the ground. Our arms were stretched over our heads. We were hanging in this way several days and nights. Whilst we hung there, three sentries and the white man beat us in the private parts on the neck and other parts of the body with big hard sticks till we fainted.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
When I was very small, the soldiers came to make war in my village because of the rubber. The soldier used a knife to cut off my right hand and took it away. So again, there is testimony to living people having their hands cut off. It's not just corpses. I saw that he was carrying other cut-off hands. The same day, my father and mother were killed, and I know that they had their hands cut off.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So, I mean, living, dead, it's all about the hands. And then a final one. I knew Jungi well. The white man held his head while Nikoi, standing at his feet, hit him with a cane. Finally, Nikoi kicked Jungi several times and told him to get up. When he didn't move, Akate said to the white man, this man is dead. You've killed him. The white man replied, I don't give a damn.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
The judges are white men like me. So no wonder they kept him hidden in Belgium.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Dominic, I mean, important just to say that there are a lot of Belgians who have also been participating in this campaign. A lot of journals, a lot of magazines, a lot of newspapers. So it's not like... there are Belgians who are not appalled by what's been going on, just like everyone else.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Because we talked about that this was the great ambition of his life, was to disinherit his daughters. And also, just to add, that seven months after Leopold's death, Caroline, who is now enormously rich... marries Dureux, the pimp. And I think Hochschild says that Dureux may well be the most successful pimp in the history of pimping. He kind of reaps in the largest financial reward.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Because basically, I mean, he's made millions and millions and millions.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So everybody is like, let's forget Leopold ever existed. So the kind of the Belgian royal family get what kind of great war washed, I suppose.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
There was a big debate, wasn't there, whether to remove a statue of him from his birthplace in Wales. That's right. Yeah. I think they kept the statue. I think it's still there.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But also, I suppose, because he's investing his future in the company. Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't you want to read up about business that you're involved in?
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
There's Tintin in Congo, Hergé, one of the, I think his second Tintin book.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And the role played by Belgium... in upholding it as a territory supplying Western needs. It's taken up by the United States, doesn't it? Yes. CIA-sponsored assassinations, backing for Mobutu, who's, I mean, the kind of the parody of a kleptocrat. And I think we said this right at the beginning, that in a way, Mobutu is the real heir of King Leopold II.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Brilliant. Amazing, amazing sweep of a terrible story. As I say, we'll be back in our next episode with Heart of Darkness. And then next week, there'll be also a bonus on Roger Casement. So lots of Congo for now. Bye-bye.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Surrounded by groups of relatives or boon companions, passengers bound Congo woods. Men of whose fitness for residing and governing in tropical Africa even a novice would have doubts. Young mostly, and mostly of a poor type. Undersized, pallid wastrels. But here and there, an older, bronzed individual. One who has obviously been through all this before.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Well, and I think Hochschild actually agrees because he wrote a kind of second edition about this. So I think it's the influence of his mother, who's a Quaker. And throughout this podcast, we've talked about the role played by Quakers in human rights campaigns, abolition of slavery being the obvious example.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And although it is true, as Hochschild says, that Morell is not conventionally religious, he doesn't attend Quaker meetings or Church of England services or anything like that. Nevertheless, it's clear that he has absorbed values, I would say, from his parents, probably particularly from his mother. And that this... is manifesting itself through his moral assumptions and his campaigning zeal.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
I mean, they don't just magically materialise.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Well, maybe. I mean, you have a sense of campaigning zeal of a particular commitment to notions of human rights, a long historical tradition. His mother belongs to that tradition. He manifests that tradition. I would say it's the likeliest explanation.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
Well, but think of Benjamin Lay going to the Caribbean and feeling personally implicated in slavery there.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
And I suppose the situation for them was that if they're feeling a sense of guilt about what they've been doing, they don't have a vent for it. But Morel's appearance on the scene provides them with just that vent.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
the faces of these distinctly not good to look upon, scarred with brutality, with cruel and lustful eyes, faces from which one turns with an involuntary shudder of repulsion.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
So he said in the previous episode about the hand chopping, the most notorious manifestation of barbarism in the Congo, that these were usually from corpses, from dead people.
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540. Horror in the Congo: A Conspiracy Unmasked (Part 3)
But there is one horrible account by an American missionary where he described seeing soldiers cut off someone's hand and quote, while the poor heart beat strongly enough to shoot the blood from the cut arteries at a distance of fully four feet. I mean, once you read details like that, they're kind of seared on the mind, aren't they?
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And these are the guys who had got together to overthrow Brunhild. They'd betrayed her. And so she'd ended up being captured by Clothar and very horribly executed. So Arnulf serves the young Daggerbert as his kind of preeminent counsellor and Pepin serves him. Kind of off and on, sometimes he retires, sometimes he comes back.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
But he is basically not just the kind of the leading magnate in Austrasia, but he is also the leading official in that kingdom. And his status is in Latin, mayor domus, which, you know, you could anglicize that to be major domo. His mayor, he's the leading official. And these officials are very, very ambitious. So powerful, ambitious and resolute were the mayores.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
who stood at the most important junctions of Merovingian polity. So that's how Yitzhak Han, scholar of the Merovingian kingdom, describes them. And I guess traditionally, so going back to the time of Clovis, the role of these mayores, these mayors, let's call them that, was to kind of mediate between the king and the local magnates, the local lords.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
But Pepin is so able, so powerful, Dagobert is so kind of inexperienced and young, that Pepin is able to make himself into something more than that, effectively the power behind the throne. And Pepin's achievement is to set up what effectively is a kind of shadow dynasty to the Merovingian dynasty.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So Pepin's daughter goes on to marry the son of Arnulf, the bishop, who's the kind of the chief advisor. And this couple, they have a son who is absolutely kind of in every sense a chip off the old block. So he, like his grandfather, is also called Pepin. So he's called Pepin of Hairstyle by the chroniclers to distinguish him from his grandfather. he becomes the mayor of Austrasia in 680.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And, I mean, he's not just the power behind the throne. He puts the throne in his shadow. He is an absolutely domineering figure. And he's able to do that because, for the Merovingians, very unfortunate series of circumstances. They're a succession of kind of children who succeed to the throne, die, succeeded by another child. You know, if they grow to adulthood, they're absolutely useless.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And so... In the shadow of Pepin of Herstal, this great overweening mayor, the Merovingian king is reduced effectively to a kind of cipher. And by the time that Pepin of Herstal dies in 714, he's made himself the master not just of Austrasia, where he's the mayor, but also of Neustria, that northern kingdom of Burgundy. And he's also been pushing eastwards.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So under his leadership, the Franks have begun conquering swathes of what today are the Netherlands and central Germany. Pepin of Herstal is no longer content just with the title of mayor. He wants something more. And so he has given himself an absolutely brilliant title. Dux et Princeps Francorum, the Duke and the Prince of the Franks.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And he has established this title, as though it was a kind of kingship, as hereditary. And his son, Pepin of Herstal's son, is Charles Martel.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He is battle-hardened, cunning, and absolutely does not want to submit to the rule of Charmartel. He wants to effectively maintain his kind of independence. He's Frankish, but he's able to draw on the kind of the ancient traditions of the Roman province that had been there. So it's a kind of independence that he wants to uphold.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And this has been fine while he's only had to deal with Charmartel and the kind of the Franks to the north, north of the Loire. The nightmare for Odo is the arrival of the Saracens, as he calls them. He is sandwiched between these two terrifying enemies. So he's got the Frankish kingdom to the north and he's got the Saracens who are kind of riding up from the south.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And so unsurprisingly, Odo tries to kind of play these two menacing enemies off against one another. So in 721, the Umayyad forces have completed their conquest of the Visigothic stretches of Gaul. And so then they turn their attentions to Aquitaine. And the spring of 721, they lay siege to the greater city in Aquitaine, which is Toulouse.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Odo turns to Charles Martel and he says, look, we're all Franks together. Can you come and help me? This is a nightmare. And Charles Martel, far from rallying to the cause of Christendom, he says, no, I'm not interested. You're on your own. So poor Odo has to kind of basically deal with this crisis under his own agency. And he does it very, very effectively because he gathers his forces together.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He approaches the besieging Arabs around Toulouse by stealth and he takes them completely by surprise and he wipes them out. And this is the first great defeat suffered by the Umayyad forces in Europe. And Odo is absolutely triumphant. He writes a letter to the Pope saying, I'm absolutely brilliant.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
I've killed 375,000 Saracens, which is possibly an exaggeration, but clearly it is a crucial victory. For the moment he has saved Aquitaine, from invasion. And he's won a breathing space, not just for himself, but also for Shah Martel up in the northern lands, basically to prepare for the storm that they know is going to come. They know the storm clouds of war are gathering.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And so both men prepare for the invasion that is coming. And they know this because even though the Umayyads have been defeated before the walls of Toulouse, they have not been expelled from Gaul.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Right. So Autun in Burgundy, which Brunhild in the final years of her regency had made her capital, a kind of very beautiful ancient Roman city that gets put to the torch. Lots of other towns do, particularly monasteries. You compared the Arab invaders to the Vikings.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
For the same reason, they target monasteries because they're full of kind of riches that can be carted off. And so this is looking really bad. So Odo, his strategy is to try and kind of pick Arab warlords off and enter into an alliance with them. And he succeeds in doing this with a Berber warlord called Uthman, who has been given the command of what today is Catalonia.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So for the Umayyads, it's a kind of border region, a marcher region. And Odo wants to stabilize his southern frontier. And Uthman wants to carve Catalonia out as a kind of independent fiefdom. He wants to rule it under his own steam rather than in subordination to the Umayyad governor in Toledo. And the alliance is signed in 730. And to seal it, Odo gives Uthman his daughter in marriage.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
No, because what matters to both men, Odo and Uthman, is power politics. That's much more important than any sense of a kind of titanic clash of civilizations. And to begin with, it seems to work. There is stability along the line of the Aquitanian border. Uthman is able to establish himself as independent, but... Trouble is brewing.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
The storm clouds of war continue to gather because back in Toledo, the news of this alliance goes down like a cup of cold sick. And unfortunately for both Uthman and Odo, the governor in Toledo, he's a new governor, is exceedingly able and also exceedingly devout. And this is a man called Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi. He is from Arabia. He's from the Red Sea. He comes from the heartlands of Islam.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He, probably far more than most people in Spain, is completely on top of what is becoming Islam. And he is not prepared to put up with this. So his response is completely devastating. 731, he invades Catalonia. He defeats Uthman, has him killed, captures Uthman's wife, who is the daughter of Odo. And Pax are off to Damascus to live in the colorful Harem there.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So, you know, that's bad news for Odo and indeed probably for Odo's daughter. And you were saying that there's no real sense of a kind of clash of civilizations going on. While Abdulrahman is doing this in Catalonia, Charles Martel is signally not helping the Christian cause because he has crossed the Loire and is taking advantage of Odo's state of despair at the collapse of his alliance by
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
launching an attack on Aquitaine and carting off loads of loot northwards to the Raya. So that's not helpful at all. Then the following year in spring, Abd al-Rahman invades Aquitaine. He sweeps northwards through Gascony. He descends on Bordeaux. He captures it. He sacks it. Odo has been frantically marshalling men to try and resist this attack.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He meets the army of Abd al-Rahman on the banks of the Garonne, beyond Bordeaux, and the result is a completely devastating defeat for Odo. And we have a chronicle that was written by an anonymous Christian priest back in Spain. It's called the Chronicle of 754 by scholars, and it's essentially our main source, our most contemporary source for what's going on.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And he records of this battle that Odo's army was scattered into flight, and only God could know the number of those who died or were slain. So this is terrible for Odo. He survives the battle, but essentially he must fear that Aquitaine is lost. So he musters what troops have survived the disaster, recruits what more he can from the outer reaches of his duchy,
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And then he rides with them northwards to the Loire and crosses into the lands that are ruled by Charles Martel. And he comes to the Duke of the Franks and, you know, his great rival humiliating for him, but he has no choice, you know, and he begs him for assistance. And Charles is still driving a hard bargain.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
You know, it's not as though he feels, well, we're all Christians together in the face of this terrible threat. He drives a really hard bargain. He demands that Odo submit to him, that he acknowledge him as Odo's superior. And Odo has no choice. So reluctantly, he gives his submission.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Meanwhile, back in Aquitaine, Abdulrahman's men, they've won this great victory and they are keen to profit from it all that they can. So they are spilling out across Aquitaine. They're falling on towns. They're falling on monasteries. They're stripping them bare. They're loading wagons high with loot. And they rumble northwards.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
You know, the army spilling up the Roman roads that lead towards the Loire, the wagons full of gold and treasure accompanying them. And the further north they go, the closer they come to the lands ruled by the Duke and Prince of the Franks, Charles Martel. And I think for the Umayyad forces, there's a definite sense that they're venturing into unknown territory here.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
You know, it's a long, long way from Toledo, let alone from Africa. They don't know much about Charles Martel. They don't know much about the people that he rules. They don't really have a sense of what might lay ahead. But there is one thing, of course, that they are alert to, and that is the prospect of plunder. And again, in this, they are like the Vikings.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And of course, the nearer they head to the Loire, the more they are picking up the rumors of, I mean, not just a wealthy shrine, but a fabulously wealthy shrine, the wealthiest shrine in the whole of Gaul, rich in every kind of treasure.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And this shrine, of course, is the shrine of Saint Martin of Tours, the great patron saint of the Merovingian monarchy, but also more generally of the Franks themselves. And there is no way that the Duke of the Franks can possibly allow the invaders, if he can in any way help it, to strip the shrine of Saint Martin bare.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Okay, so we are still in our series on the Franks, and Charles, who Gibbon in that passage is very careful to specify, is not a king, but a mayor or a duke of the Franks. He is perhaps... the greatest of all the Frankish warlords since the time of Clovis, the king who founds the great kingdom of the Franks as the Roman Empire is falling.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He's pretty good. He's the guy who comes up with our dating system.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
I think that's probably the generally held theory. And if he did that, then it's witness to the fact that his sense that this is an amazing episode, it's something that's worth recording. And also it bears witness to the fact that the news of... this great battle that's been fought, this great Saracen invasion has kind of crossed the channel.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
It's spread up all the way through England up to Northumbria. So this is something that really resonates. And if Bede is writing about this invasion of 732, then this is the earliest witness that we have to it. And it is indeed very dramatic. It's not surprising that Bede, who's kind of obviously very attuned to the flow of great events, would have heard of it and been interested in it.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
because we have two great and formidable generals coming up against one another. So, Abd al-Rahman, the Umayyad general, the governor of Spain, I mean, he's already proved himself very, very formidable in battle. He's overthrown Uthman. He's defeated Odo. He's now heading northwards towards the line of the Loire.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
We don't know how large his invasion force is, but it's evidently, you know, I mean, it's large enough to have defeated Uthman, to have swatted aside Odo. And it is also much, much better equipped than the Frankish army. I mean, I always remember I had a children's book of history that had an illustration of the Battle of Tours. And the Franks in that were kind of knights on armor.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And the Arabs all had, you know, they kind of loosely, you know, wearing their kind of flowing robes.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Yes, exactly. But actually, it's the other way around. It's the Umayyad forces that are very much heavier in cavalry than the Franks. And they're also much, much better equipped. So a quote, Bernard S. Bachrach, whose book on early Carolingian warfare is brilliant on this whole campaign.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And he writes that the Arabs had acquired by conquest the arms manufacturing infrastructure of what had been a large part of the eastern half of the Roman Empire. These production resources were far better developed than those found during the early 8th century throughout the Empire's Romano-German successor states in the West. So basically, you know, their kit is loads, loads better.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
But we're now in the early 8th century and Charles will be known from the following century onwards as Charles Martel, the Hammer. So a tremendous name for a guy who has a very mailed fist. The Saracens are an army in the service of the Umayyad Caliphate. So that is the first great Arab empire, the first great empire of Islam. And this is why Gibbon is casting it as a peculiarly decisive clash
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And also, the Emeads, they're just much richer. You know, they've had a century and more of plunder behind them. They can afford better armor, better helmets, better swords than the Franks have. And on top of that... They're also much more technologically advanced. So there's one key technological development that the Franks can't rival.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And again, to quote Bachrach, finally, the Muslims had the technology to construct the composite recurve bow, which was made from various layers of bone, horn and wood. These weapons were far superior to the wooden self-bows available to the Northerners. In addition, the shorter and more powerful recurve bow could be used effectively by mounted troops.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And I read that because I don't really know what a recurve bow is.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
It's the kind you get in the Arabian Nights, isn't it?
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And also apparently it can go further than the Frankish bows can. So it's basically a brilliant bow. It's a great bow. It's a top bow. So basically, this is not a kind of ragtag desert army. This is a very, very formidable force. And one that effectively is a kind of worthy successor to the Roman armies.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Because it's drawing on those traditions. Now, people who've listened to the first two episodes will remember that The Franks too are drawing on a Roman inheritance. So they were trained to fight in a Roman way. And that's a tradition that's endured for the two centuries since the fall of the Roman Empire in the West.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And on top of that, they have Roman military manuals, which we know that they read. So like the Romans, they have an emphasis on infantry. At this point, the Franks do not have the kind of the heavily armored lorikati, they're called, the kind of the armored horsemen that are the precursors of the Western knight. They are very, very much focused on fighting on foot.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
I think in part, although I gather that this is hugely debated by military historians because they haven't yet adopted the stirrup. The stirrup is just kind of being introduced to the land of the Franks at this point. So Charles would have had horsemen with him, and these were called palatini, so people who are, you know, his elites who surround him in the palace.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And this is where the word paladins comes from, which is kind of very King Arthur. Lancelot and Gawain are the paladins of King Arthur. So he does have some of them, but the main focus is on, as I say, on infantry and specifically the Franks fight in a phalanx. So like the Romans had done, very close order, shields locked together.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
If they are faced by archers, as the Romans had done, they're able to kind of form a testudo, a tortoise. So you put the shields up and over your heads and the arrows just kind of bounce off your shields. And they fight so closely together that there's a Frankish report of a battle that was fought a century before the Battle of Tours.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
that describes how the slain had nowhere to fall but stood in their battle lines, corpse supporting corpse, as though they were still alive. So very, very close formation.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Yeah, the use of the stabbing sword rather than the slashing sword. And I guess people would associate kind of Frankish knights as using a massive, great, heavy slashing sword. But at this point, again, they are using the gladius, as the Romans called it, the kind of the stabbing sword. So they approximate to a Roman legion more than to anything else.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And of course, Roman legions were dependent on relentless training. And this seems to have been what Charles had given his troops. So, you know, that breathing space that Odo's defeat of the Arabs before the walls of Toulouse had brought Charles, he doesn't seem to have wasted it. He seems to have essentially put his troops through their paces, drilling them and drilling them and drilling them. And
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Even if his men are not as well equipped as the Umayyad forces, they are as well trained. And I think that this is what Charles is relying on to defeat them. So those are the armies. What about the strategy of the two commanders? So Abdulrahman's strategy is very plain. He wants to sack the shrine of St. Martin. And there are various reasons why he would be particularly keen to do that.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
The obvious one is loads of his troops are following him in the expectation of loot. Most of them, I suspect, are not motivated by a passionate commitment to the teachings of the Quran. They want to get loot. as rich as they possibly can. And St. Martin's Shrine promises them all kinds of goodies. I think Abdulrahman recognizes the kind of significance to Frankish prestige of the Shrine of St.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Martin. If he can sack it, you know, it'll be a real body blow to the prestige of Shah Martel and his regime. And I think, you know, we've said Abdulrahman, you know, he comes from the heartlands of Islam. He definitely has a kind of a doctrinal motivation. He wants to strip the shrine of St.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Martin Bear, not just because it's full of treasure, but because as he sees it, it's full of kind of idols. He wants to humble the pride of the cross worshippers into the dust.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
He's framing it as a battle between Christianity and Islam. And he's suggesting that had it gone the other way, had the Franks lost to the Saracens, to the Muslims, to the Arabs, then perhaps we might have seen the interpretation of the Quran taught in Oxford. And there's a bit of a joke here because Gibbon had been a student at Oxford and had absolutely hated it. He despised all the dons.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
But to do that, to reach the shrine of Saint Martin, you know, he's going to have to wipe out the army of the Franks, Charles's army. And the reason for that is that Charles's strategy essentially is to block his access to Tours and force him to attempt a decisive battle.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And this for Abd al-Rahman is going to be a real challenge because even though his men are superior in kit and in military technology, The Franks, as we've said, are at least as well trained, and they're also probably numerically superior. And that's because Charles's forces have been swelled by the troops that Odo has brought with him from Aquitaine.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And of course, they are absolutely resolute in their determination to defend St. Martin's Shrine, just as Abdulrahman wants to strip it because it's so precious to the Franks. Obviously, for that reason, the Franks are determined to defend and protect it.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Charles is confident that this is a potentially winning strategy because he can rely on his men to hold their ground, not to break, not to flee, but also should the Arabs be defeated, not to run after them, which would potentially then open them up to attack by the Arab cavalry. So this strategy effectively means the late autumn of 732 that a battle is going to be inevitable.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Charles is going to block the road to Tours. Abdulrahman is going to have to engage him if he wants to break through. And the reason for that, he can't really... retreat because that would be very damaging to his prestige. And also if he retreats, there's a risk to his baggage train with all that kind of golden stuff. So effectively, there is no choice but to engage.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So there's essentially a kind of week of shadow boxing. And then finally, the moment comes. The Arabs are on the Roman road. They see the Franks lined up ahead of them. There is no choice now but to engage in battle. And again, the best account of what happens is this Chronicle of 754. And the Christian priest writing that, he describes the Frankish battle line in an incredibly memorable way.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
The Northerners held their position like a glacier from the frozen north. I mean, amazing description. Yeah.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
But also icy cold and dangerous. He describes how the stabbing swords of the Franks, the gladi, inflict terrible damage on the invaders. And among the dead is Abdulrahman himself. So again, the Chronicle of 754. The Austrasians, so that's the Franks, with a terrible strength in their limbs and an iron hand throughout the hard fight. killed him when they found him.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And as evening comes, it's clear that the victory is the Franks. But what is perhaps the most impressive witness to their discipline is that they hold their line. I mean, as I said, it's the only way that they could have lost at this point would be if they'd kind of go, whoa, we've won, brilliant, and piled off. They don't.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
They hold their positions and then they retreat to their camp, pretty confident that the next day they're going to have to fight again, that the battle will continue.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And I'll describe what then happens and what they find when they wake up the day after this first engagement by quoting the Chronicle of 754. So this priest writes, rising from their sleeping bags at dawn, the Europeans, and it's such an interesting use of that. I mean, I think it's the first use of that phrase in any medieval chronicle.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
The Europeans beheld the tents and camps of the Arabs canopies located and ordered as they had been. Not knowing that they were all empty and supposing that the Saracens' phalanxes were prepared for battle within, they sent scouts and found that all the Ishmaelites' columns had escaped and that all of them were secretly fleeing home, passing the night in tight formation.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
The Europeans were anxious lest they might have concealed themselves on a hidden path as a stratagem. Stunned in every way, they hunted the surrounding area in vain. Making no further effort to find the aforesaid people, they returned to their own countries rejoicing with their booty and the evenly divided spoils.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
I think they leave some of it behind and this is what the Franks pick up.
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who at the time were Anglican priests. And so I think he's slightly tweaking the noses of his old teachers and suggesting that they might have been circumcised followers of Muhammad. But it's obviously, it's not just a joke because Gibbon has a genius for, well, Byron referred to his solemn sneer. When he makes a joke, there's often a kind of very serious purpose.
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But the Franks don't pursue them. I mean, that's what's striking. They let them go. Right. And it's indisputably for them a great victory. St. Martin is safe. St. Martin is safe and his shrine will never be threatened again. But this leaves open the question that we began this episode with. What is the significance of this battle? Is it world historical in its moment?
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And I guess the first question is, what do we make of this attack that the Umayyad forces have launched on the Loire? Is it a raid? Is it a maneuver in a kind of factional battle between assorted Christian and Muslim warlords? Is it a Muslim attempt to humble a Christian shrine? I reckon the answer to that is that it's all of those. I mean, they're not mutually exclusive.
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You know, the desire for loot, the ambition that Abdulrahman had to punish the treachery of Uthman and to kind of humble Odo into the dust, his zeal for Islam. I mean, all of these are clearly part of the mix of motivations, I think, that are encouraging him.
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It isn't. But I think that doesn't mean that it's not significant. Let's do a counterfactual. Abd al-Rahman wins. Charles Martel is killed. Odo is killed. They march on the shrine of St. Martin. They strip it bare. And then they cart all the treasure back. And what happens next? We can never be sure in any of these situations. There are so many kind of intangibles.
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But the balance of probability would be that Aquitaine would definitely fall to the Umayyad forces. I mean, if Odo is dead, if his men have been wiped out, there's no real prospect of the Umayyad forces not occupying it and kind of making it a forward base beyond the Pyrenees.
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They do, but then the Straits of Gibraltar are also a pretty significant barrier, and they've managed to take Spain.
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And I think part of the reason for that is that success attracts followers, and there would undoubtedly have been people in Aquitaine who would have wanted to side with the winners, and that would then have provided a kind of reserve of manpower that the Mayid occupiers could have drawn on. And if they do that... then the consequences of that for Southern Gaul are pretty clear.
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I mean, Southern Gaul will become part of the Umayyad Caliphate. And that in turn, I think, would have put Italy in peril. And Italy, of course, is the home of the papacy in Rome. And the Byzantine forces there are you know, under attack.
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Well, if Southern Gaul falls, then the Franks can't come to the rescue of the papacy. And as we will see in our next episode. Essentially, in this century, the papacy is dependent for its political survival on Frankish support. So I think it's improbable that the papacy that Rome would have held out against Muslim domination had Tor gone the other way.
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And the implications of that would have been pretty significant. I mean, what about the implications for the independent Frankish kingdom? I mean, it's got huge reserves of manpower. It could easily have rallied. It could have held out. It could have launched a reconquest of the South.
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That, after all, is what, you know, in the long run, the Spanish Christians do over the course of the Middle Ages. But I think that there are two episodes from early medieval history that suggest that it would have been a challenge. It would have been difficult for the Franks to do that. And the first, of course, is what we've just been talking about, the defeat of the Visigoths.
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And he's making a serious point here. He's saying, this is one of the great decisive battles of world history.
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Because if you say, you know, the attack on Tor was just a raid, well, essentially the invasion across the Straits of Gibraltar into Spain was just a raid. But because the invaders won this massive battle and killed the Visigothic king, within a decade, pretty much the whole of Spain had fallen into their lap. And, you know, with Aquitaine as a base...
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I think the potential for a kind of campaigns of jihad against the Franks in the North would have been considerable, which isn't to say that the same thing would have happened, but it might have done. We don't know. But the other event that I think, you know, had the Shrine of St. Martin been sacked...
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There is then an obvious parallel later in the century, which you alluded to right at the beginning of this episode, and that's what the Vikings do when they launch their campaigns against particularly England. And that begins with the sack of a famous shrine, the shrine of St. Cuthbert on Holy Island, the island of Lindisfarne.
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And what that demonstrates is that to loot a shrine that has a kind of a special holiness is never just to loot it, because As well as the financial loss, there is also the shock that it delivers to people for whom this shrine is a kind of central part of their spiritual identity. So the sack of the Shrine of St.
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Cuthbert on Lindisfarne sends shockwaves not just across Britain, but across the whole of Europe. And I think it gives a pretty devastating blow to Northumbrian morale, and the kingdom of Northumbria falls to pieces. fairly soon afterwards. And I think that the sack of the shrine of St. Martin would have had probably an even greater impact. St.
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Martin is the great patron of Frankish royalty, but by the 8th century, it's become much more than that. So St. Martin, he's the first, he's the most celebrated of all Gaul's monks, of all Gaul's holy men. And he has become the emblem of a kind of common identity that has joined Franks and Romans. They all share a kind of common devotion to this saint. And so you could say that the sack of St.
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Martin's Shrine would have been a blow, not just to Frankish prestige, but to the very spiritual identity of this emergent Frankish nation. And of course, at the same time, it would have offered evidence for those with eyes to see of the truth of the message that is being proclaimed by the invaders. And it's absolutely true that this is not kind of at the forefront of the Umayyad campaign.
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It's not particularly what they are proclaiming. And therefore, very few people at the point where the Battle of Tours is being fought really have a sense of anything approximating to Islam. So this is why it's not couched by contemporary chroniclers as a great clash of civilizations or anything like that.
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So Bede, who we've referenced, the great scholar and historian writing in his monastery up in Northumbria, He has only the vaguest sense of who the Saracens, as he calls them, you know, vaguest sense of who they are. He thinks that they're pagans, that they're worshippers of the morning star. There are others who are closer to them who think of them essentially as Christian heretics.
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Right. And I think right the way through to the Middle Ages, I mean, Dante is still kind of, you know, that's still how he's framing them. I mean, they don't really have a sense of Islam as a religion. I mean, that's a much later kind of conceptualization. And maybe because of that, maybe because Islam in some ways is very close to Christianity.
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You know, Jesus is in the Quran, Virgin Mary's in Quran. Both Christianity and Islam have a respect for the Hebrew prophets. That is a big difference, I think, between the Muslim invaders of Spain and Gaul and the Vikings. Because there are doubtless people in England who do end up abandoning their Christianity and turning to the worship of the Viking gods.
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But it's not a sophisticated framework of belief. And the kind of structures of imperialism that the Vikings bring, it's basically kind of grab it and settle. And that's the limit of it. But the evidence of Muslim Spain shows that Islam is very, very different, that it has a very sophisticated relationship to Christianity.
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It has a framework for subordinating Christians and Jews and kind of, you know, putting them within an empire. The Quran mandates how they should be taxed, how they should be subordinated, all these kind of things. It's a program for imperial rule. And that is an obvious point of differentiation between the Vikings and the Arabs.
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And that's why Spain, it's not just that it is ruled by Muslims, it becomes Muslim over the course of the centuries that follow its conquest. And I think you could suppose the Muslims hold on to southern Gaul. You could see the same process happening there. you know, that would have pretty seismic implications for the future course of medieval history.
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And I think, ultimately, to think that the annihilation of Charles Martel's army has no real significance, that it's just a raid, that it's, you know, nothing very important. And I think, ultimately, that to suppose that had Charles Martel lost the battle, had he died, had his troops been wiped out, had the Shrine of Saint Martin been attacked, that it was just a raid.
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I think that to kind of believe that, it's effectively to argue that Islam and Christianity, and specifically the distinctive form of Christianity that emerges in Western Europe in the centuries after the Battle of Tours, that they're essentially the same. There's no real difference between them. It doesn't really matter if you're ruled by Christians or by Muslims.
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And I just don't think that's true. I think that there is a very, very profound difference between the two ways of seeing the world. And so therefore, I think that the Battle of Tours is significant. I mean, I don't think it's a kind of peripheral clash. I think it is momentous, perhaps not quite as momentous as Gibbon suggested, but pretty important.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And Charles Martel's victory in that sense is pretty seismic in the long run, but it's seismic also in the short term because it has very important implications for the future of the Frankish kingdom and for his own dynasty.
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I think it is, for reasons that we'll look at in the next episode, because it means it's not just the Franks who've won, Charles Martel has won. The kind of the glory of his victory kind of resonates to his prestige. And as we will see, he is now in a position where not just to defend his kingdom against the invaders, but to go on the offensive. And his son in turn will be able to do that.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And his grandson, who is Charlemagne, will definitely be able to do that.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Right. So most of the historians in the 19th and 20th century who are pushing this case, they see the possibility that Christian Europe might have become Muslim as a disaster. So Gibbon refers to it in that passage he read as a calamity. But one person, he said, who thought it was a great shame that the Franks had won was Adolf Hitler.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
No, I don't think so because what also then happens after that is that, and we've did this in our history of Baghdad, is that the Umayyads are overthrown by the Abbasids. But one of the Umayyads is able to get to Spain where he establishes himself as its ruler and in the long term as its caliph. And this is the great golden age of Umayyad Spain. And it's ferociously and impressively formidable.
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It's a very potent military power. And it's a very great kind of civilizational power. And this is the period when you see large numbers of Christian Spaniards converting to Islam because it has this kind of great force of appeal.
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It's culturally, militarily, politically more appealing than Christianity, which seems a kind of defeated and superseded way of seeing the world, way of explaining man's relationship to God.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And had that realm that the Umayyads take over in the wake of the Abbasid revolution, had that extended to southern Gaul, had it extended to northern Italy, then that would have been an even larger power base for the Umayyad caliphate.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So coming up next, it's the son of Charles Martel and his relationship with the papacy, which is, again, a development of seismic impact for the future history of Europe, and therefore, in the long run, the world. And this man, Pippin, who overthrows the Merovingians, makes himself king. He is the father of a much greater and more famous king, Charlemagne.
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And so at the end of our next episode, Charlemagne will be entering the story.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Are you a fan of The Rest Is History, but yet to dive into the weird and wonderful world of The Rest Is History Club? Or is there someone dear to you who won't stop banging on about the show?
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And the reasons for this, he spelt it out in his table talk, and I'll read it. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers, he said. Already you see the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing is Christianity.
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Hello, everybody. Dominic Sandbrook here. And I'm Tom Holland. And we have some incredibly exciting news to tell you, don't we, Dominic?
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And we will be bringing you a brand new show, and this time discussing two more of history's most extraordinary, fascinating, and iconic classical composers, in this case, Tchaikovsky and Wagner. And these extraordinary lives will be brought to life thanks to the accompaniment of the renowned Philharmonia Orchestra, conducted by the celebrated Oliver Zeffman.
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And these tickets will be available from www.patreon.com. royalalberthall.com on Thursday the 19th of December with a pre-sale for the Rest Is History club members and Royal Albert Hall friends and patrons 24 hours earlier on Wednesday the 18th of December at 10am.
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Then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so. Crikey. Because to Hitler, Christianity is a kind of weedy, wet religion that encourages peace.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
If the history buff in your life is always regaling you with the same old facts about Churchill or Napoleon, why not get him or her, and let's face it, you, a present?
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It is packed to the brim with the most bizarre historical questions you never thought to ask, like what was the most disastrous party in history? Which British politician plotted to feed his lover to an alligator? And why was a Brazilian emperor mistaken for a banana?
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Yes. So that's one argument that is, I would say, is pretty much the consensus now among academics on the status of the Battle of Tor. That it's not an invasion, that it's a raid. Also that it's not a clash between Christianity and Islam because no contemporary really seems to frame it as such.
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And also that, in a way, it owes more to faction fighting among various Frankish warlords, of whom Charles Martel is one, than it does to Muslim dreams of world conquest. But, you know, there are plenty of other scholars who do hold to the kind of Gibbonian view. And it's a debate that's been rumbling away now for decades.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And it is a debate that has kind of echoed beyond universities in a way that is unusual for debates about Frankish history. Because this, I would say in general, you know, the period that we've been discussing, these centuries of Frankish history, are among the most obscure in European history. It's not a period that people know a great deal about. But the Battle of Tours does have cut through.
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And there's an obvious reason for that, which is basically the kind of political context in Europe today, and specifically the fact that over recent decades, the growth of the Muslim population in Europe has been considerable. And this particularly... in France, so the ancient Frankish heartland, it has generated quite a far-right reaction. But, you know, not only in France.
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So in Britain, for instance, there are now Muslim scholars preaching the Quran in Oxford. And there are people in here, in Britain, as in France, as in other countries in Europe, who regard this with extreme hostility. And I think the implications of this for discussion of the Battle of Tours in far-right circles is... I mean, is unbelievably toxic.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So you can see this in the way that it's been used by far-right groups. So as early as the 1970s in France, in the wake of the Algerian war, de Gaulle's settlement of that, and the growth of Algerian immigration into France, In the 70s, there was an anti-Algerian terrorist group, so far-right terrorist group, and it called itself the group Chalmatel.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So drawing its direct inspiration from the Frankish duke who had won the Battle of Tours. Then in 2015, after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, you know, so the publishers of the historical magazine in France who were kind of shot by an Islamist gunman, Jean-Marie Le Pen... who was leader of the National Front at the time, father of Marine Le Pen. There was this slogan, Je suis Charlie.
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So people saying, you know, identifying themselves with the victims of the attack on Charlie Hebdo. But Jean-Marie Le Pen said, no, Je suis Charlie Martel.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And perhaps the most brutal manifestation of the way in which the far right have identified with Charles Martel is that in 2019, people may remember, there was a terrorist attack in New Zealand of all places, so the opposite end of the world from France, done by an Australian terrorist. And he attacked a mosque and an Islamic center in Christchurch, killed 51 people.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And on his gun, he had inscribed the name of Charles Martel. So you can see that for academics, this is very difficult, I think, to kind of banish this from what they're doing, wouldn't you say? Yeah, of course.
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I think equally you could say that those who say that it's unimportant, that it's a minor border skirmish, also tend to be of a particular political persuasion, which is simply to say that it is difficult, I think, to remove discussions of this battle from current political contexts. So just as there are people on the right who say this was the saving of Europe,
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
So on the other hand, on the left, occasionally you will get the sense that basically it was kind of racist of the Franks not to have surrendered to the invaders at all. And I think it reflects the fact that maybe of all the battles we've discussed so far on The Rest is History, this is politically the most sensitive of the lot.
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So that's why I think before we get into the details of the battle itself, it's really important to explain the context for what is going on here in some detail.
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Yeah, it's really difficult to know what word to use to describe these invaders for the reasons that you said. I mean, and certainly the Berbers in the army, probably the majority, I mean, loads of them would have had only the haziest sense of what Islam was. And as you say, Islam itself is still in the process of evolution at this point.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Islam at this point is best thought of as a kind of franchising system. So groups of people beyond the kind of the heartlands of the Umayyad Empire back in Syria and Iraq and Arabia are licensed by the caliph in Baghdad to form their own kind of posses, their own groups. And essentially the license that the caliph is giving these groups of people
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is to go out and proclaim the revelations of Muhammad to the limits of the world. But the reason that lots of people kind of buy into this isn't necessarily because they are kind of passionately committed to spreading the message of the Quran. It's because they want to go out and grab stuff and strip and loot monasteries and towns or whatever.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
I think you're right. And again, that kind of parallels with this in the Viking period is something we might come to kind of later on in the episode. And so what you have going over the course of the late 7th going into the 8th centuries is war bands who are kind of nominally Muslim spreading westwards from Egypt along the northern coast of Africa all the way to Mauritania.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And then in 711, there's a kind of exploratory raid across the Straits of Gibraltar. So a war band of Berbers, of Arabs, of Muslims, whatever you want to call them, they land in Spain and they have spectacular success. So they meet the King of the Visigoths. This is the kingdom that had given the Franks Brunhild. and wipes the king and his army out.
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They go on, they capture Toledo, which is in the center of Spain, the main Visigothic city. And it's a spectacular victory. It's a kind of Hernan Cortes type victory, the overthrow of a great and wealthy empire. And the loot that gets sent back to Syria is so overwhelming. that Spain comes to seem to the eyes of the Umayyads back in Syria, a kind of land of wonders.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
It's a place of talking statues where cities are fashioned entirely out of brass, just full of treasure and also full of slaves. So a massive coffle of 30,000 Visigothic slaves are sent back to Damascus. And again, this is seen as being something extraordinary. And so it's not surprising in the wake of this success that the invaders press onwards.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
And by 719, so that's just eight years after they'd landed in Gibraltar, the invaders have crossed the Pyrenees. And in 720, they capture the great city of Narbonne, which there's still a kind of tiny strip of Visigothic territory on the coast of southern Gaul.
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522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3)
Narbonne falls to the invaders, and then they fan out to conquer the remaining Visigothic strongholds in southern Gaul, so Béziers, Agde, Nîmes. They all fall. And essentially pretty much the whole of the Visigothic kingdom, with the exception of kind of the northern reaches of Spain, have fallen in the space of basically a decade to these invaders. I mean, it's a spectacular feat of conquest.
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contained in this very success. So yes, as you say, Clothar II had patched together all the various parts of what had been Roman Gaul. So, Neustria, which is the kingdom abutting the channel. Austrasia, which is the eastern reaches of the kingdom, stretching beyond the Rhine, deep into Germany. Burgundy, which is the southeast. And Aquitaine, which is the southwest.
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And Clothar II has managed to rule them all. But the reason why this ultimately is not good for the Merovingian dynasty is that basically it's too large, it turns out, for Clothar II and his son and heir, Daggerbert, to rule. So what Clothar ends up having to do is to essentially send his sons out to rule as kind of sub-kings. So one goes off to Aquitaine. He's absolutely useless.
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A chronicler dismisses him as simple-minded.
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Dagobah, Clothar's son, he's sent off to rule Austrasia. He's slightly more efficient. But when he arrives, he's young, he's inexperienced. And this means that he is very malleable in the hands of the two greatest men in Austrasia who we have already met. We met them at the end of the previous episode because these are a lord called Pepin. Yeah. and a bishop called Arnulf.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Hitler keeps this guy, Hacher, waiting. This is his standard approach, isn't it? When browbeating foreign leaders whose countries he's about to take over. Exactly. Same with Austria.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
It's your call. Presumably, though, Hitler doesn't want Prague bombed into the dust because he wants the castle and...
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Hitler is absolutely overjoyed. And this is the first proper annexation that has no kind of pretense that we're irredentism. No. These are German. We're taking them back. This is out and out kind of colonial conquest.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Kind of what he'd wanted all along, right?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Those are kind of the Habsburg words, aren't they? Those are the words that the Habsburg Empire had used.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
And they nick the crown jewels, don't they, and take them back to Germany.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Yeah, you could say that. And he had signed his piece of paper, hadn't he? Of course he had. And you were saying in the previous episode how actually that is very important. People laugh at it. but it now enables Chamberlain, I guess, to feel, I've done my best and now I have no chance. And everyone in Britain to agree with that.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So that, Dominic, was Herman Goering, who you've put down in your note, you've described as a sinister man-mountain. I hope that I adequately conveyed your kind of instructions there. He's a gentleman of size, isn't he? And I hope that that came across. This is going out early in January, and that was actually his New Year address to the Reichstag on the 1st of January 1939.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
And so now Chamberlain is looking for You know, he's abandoned Czechoslovakia. Yeah. But is there another country where he can kind of draw a red line along its border?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Right. So let's take a break now. And when we're back, we will come at last to the country where, as everyone listening to this will know, the Second World War begins.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. It's been a long sweep, hasn't it, this history of the rise of the Nazis. They're taking, going to power, the road to the Second World War. And now at last, the Second World War is hoving into view because we have come to the country for which Britain and France went to war to defend it. And that, of course, is Poland.
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, I guess, I mean, if it's been reconstituted out of the territory of great empires, great powers... then, I mean, that's inevitable, isn't it?
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
And you would have to say... that being trapped between Stalin and Hitler is not to have been served first prize in the lottery of life geopolitically, is it?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, except for Goering, I gather. Do Goering like him? Yeah, he did because Beck had served in the German cavalry, I think. Right. During the war and was very pro-German. Like you, he strongly disliked the French.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Henderson, Beck and Goering, they'd all had a great time going shooting things. Yeah. Can I just ask, Czechoslovakia was a democracy. Yeah. And presumably that was part of why they were allies with Britain and France. Is it important that Poland isn't? Poland isn't? Yeah.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So even then, the Germans are thinking that perhaps they should carve it up with the Russians. Yeah, because they have done before, like the partitions of the 1790s.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
They'll be one of those people who never get a state of their own. OK, and so one guy who's very keen on this idea that the strong must prey on the weak is Hitler. What is his take on the Poles?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I mean, Hitler is Austrian. Yeah, he's much further south, isn't he? So that's why he hates the Czechs.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
But people are always talking about these non-aggression pacts and things. Yeah, meaningless. They are meaningless, aren't they? They're totally meaningless. They're not worth the paper they're written on.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
But generally, do other powers stick by them? I mean, if the Soviet Union signs a non-aggression pact, for instance, I mean, were that to happen, do they think, yeah, we should stick with this? Or is that kind of bourgeois legalism? I think it depends on the country, doesn't it?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Yes, I would. But I mean, all these non-aggression pacts that everyone is furiously signing with Germany and the Soviet Union, I mean, it just seems a waste of effort.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I'm glad I've got that sorted.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
And then the Poles snatch it back at the end of 1938. This actually makes them all pretty pro-German, doesn't it? And they all kind of rush around Warsaw shouting out, long live Hitler.
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Because Danzig is a place in important role in Prussian hearts.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
They couldn't have built a road under Bolshevik. the German motorway and railway. What, they could have undermined it with a road of their own? I mean, you'd have bridges. You could have a Polish motorway over the... To be fair, it's not motorway architecture that is the pointed issue. I'm just trying to think creatively.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I'm just trying to think of ways that the Second World War could have been stopped.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Just trying to think creatively. We're going to hear him from Lord Halifax now. Brilliant. Well, because, I mean, let's face it, the consequences of the Poles deciding that they're going to resist German aggression for Poland. It's disastrous. And for millions and millions of Poles, and especially Jewish Poles, I mean, is literally genocidal.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
But I'm just wondering whether there was any possibility of a kind of modus operandi that could have been struck.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I'm aware that I am being inconsistent here because I've been encouraging the Czechs to resist. Yeah. But I suppose also at this point, the polls think that they're only facing a conflict on one of their borders. They are indeed. They don't think there's any possibility of, say... an alliance between the Soviet Union. They absolutely don't.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, because that was the card... that he could potentially have played over the Czech crisis. Yeah. But doesn't. I mean, that's the one card I'm guessing that Hitler would have.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
No way are we doing an alliance with the Russians. Are the British and the French, are they sufficiently alert to the fact that the Soviet Union is the great object of Nazi hatred?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So the Soviet Union is quite keen on the idea of the capitalist powers fighting themselves, say Britain, France and Germany. Yeah. I mean, is there any enthusiasm in Paris and London for the notion that the Nazis and the Soviets fight each other and we just sit back and watch them?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Right. Okay. Does the Polish alliance complicate that? Because obviously Poland lies between Germany and the Soviet Union. So if they're allying with Poland, that complicates that strategy.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I just wonder whether they war game it and think, if Hitler marches into Poland... and seizes Poland. That is then a threat directly on the Soviet Union's doorstep. I mean, that's got to provoke a response, hasn't it? Wouldn't it be better to just sit back and let these two monstrous regimes fight each other.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Don't you think there's maybe an argument that this actually would have been a good time to apply that strategy? In a kind of bleak cynicism.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So can I ask you, the previous episode, we talked about how the German economy was on the brink. It was staring down the barrel of bankruptcy. And this was a huge inspiration for conquering Czechoslovakia because it was a very rich country. Has the assimilation of the Czech economy enabled the German economy to be stabilized?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
What's his name? The realist guy over Ukraine.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, it's not about right. It's about what's kind of cynically the most effective. Yeah.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Oh, of course he is.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Yeah, maybe. I mean, if the devil is the embodiment of evil, he does what he brews for Poland. I mean, it is the essence of evil. It is. It is. But you wouldn't say that of yourself, would you? I don't know. I mean, I find it striking that he talks in...
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I know it's just a phrase, but kind of implicit theological terms, because in the long run, what happens in Nazi-occupied Poland will raise all kinds of questions about evil and the absence of good. Absolutely, it does.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So they're all colours, aren't they?
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So he might be talking about the state. Yes. But he might, I mean, be talking about people. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Yeah, I mean, it's the greatest coup d'etat in the history of diplomacy, I would guess.
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
And that man is Stalin. Well, Dominic, what a twist. What a bombshell. And we will be back on Thursday to see how the rapprochement between these two mustachioed dictators with a taste for killing people works out.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
But if you can't wait to hear about the Nazi-Soviet pact, which will be the subject of our next episode, and then our final episode, the countdown to the Second World War and the tragic story of the fall of Poland, then you can hear all three episodes right now by joining the Rest Is History Club at therestishistory.com. Goodbye. Goodbye.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, racist more specifically, isn't it? That there's a racial logic at play in Hitler's mind. Yeah. that if the Germans don't continue fighting, then stasis is not a possibility. They will lose. They will be defeated. They will be destroyed.
The Rest Is History
530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
But I guess not necessarily Stalin, though, interestingly, because Stalin also, as a communist, dreams of the whole world going communist.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I mean, just to ask you on this thing about the economy, do British and French observers, I mean, do they have analysts who are pointing this out? that if we just leave it another year, the whole regime will implode economically. Because I've never actually read that in any account of the preparations for war.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Whereas that today, you know, in a similar situation, people talk about in terms of, you know, Russia against Ukraine or Iran or whatever, the sense that economic warfare can be as effective as, you know, tanks and planes.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
It's not hidden. No. Well, this is the 100th anniversary of the publication of Mein Kampf. And it had been evident all these years. You only had to read it to know what his plans were.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
I mean, they've got all these guns and they've got all their defences and they've all been about...
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
So that's deliberate.
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530. Hitler’s War on Poland: Countdown to Armageddon (Part 1)
Well, I'm amazed to read in your notes that he translated Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men and a Boat into Czech. He did. And a less Nazi text. Yeah. I find hard to think of.
The Rest Is History
546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
But interestingly, not the Marseillaise, which apparently there's no evidence that they sang that. So that may be another pointer to the fact that these are not the kind of the radicals, the cutting edge revolutionaries as yet.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
So it's kind of scraping a result in the final match of a group round in the World Cup. Kind of a bit like that.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Doesn't Goethe, he makes a famous comment in a very grandiloquent way saying that this is, what is it?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
That's what writers do, Dominic.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
I mean, if peasants are writing like that after the battle, then maybe Goethe is saying that kind of thing. Maybe, Tom. I mean, maybe they're all massive effusions. They all feel that this is Titanic.
The Rest Is History
546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And Dominic, I've got a question, which is that the news, reaches Paris after the monarchy has been abolished, is there a feeling that this victory has been won because France is now a republic? Do you think there's something like that?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
We've got rid of the king and the traitors. And immediately we start winning.
The Rest Is History
546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And that is what happened with the first democracy when Athens establishes its democracy having thrown out its tyrants. They immediately start winning battles and presumably people would have been aware of this.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And this is the first manifestation of a sense that runs right the way up to the present day that the young are... inclined to back more radical solutions on the left, right? I mean, this is the first manifestation of it.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
We set it in the context of the role of women, didn't we? But shall we go back to the lads?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
He's got great skin. Yeah. And Mara doesn't wear a wig, has terrible skin, awful, sits in baths.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
That's true. That's true. That goes without saying.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Let's just assume you're thinking of everything. No, I don't think of everything because obviously you can have non-Christian violence, but I think the idea of violence being virtuous, that's where it's coming from.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
As you'd expect because this is 18th century France and displays of violent virtue are everywhere.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
What is so interesting and fascinating about this is that you see for the first time the manifestation of political trends that just repeat and repeat and repeat. And surely what is happening with the Girondins and the Montagnards is the notion that people on the left are can be outflanked to their left and therefore are always moving leftwards to try and avoid that.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And so the radicals of one month can suddenly find themselves the reactionaries of the next month. And it means that there's an impetus always to go further and further. Whether you are backing, you know, the people are always right, or whether you were saying virtue is manifest in violence. If you start saying, oh, I'm not sure about that, then immediately you're a reactionary.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And that is a trend that you see again and again and again, I mean, throughout the history of 19th century socialism and right the way up to the present day.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Wow. Well, I think that is too much excitement for one half of an episode. So I think we should take a break here. And when we come back, we will see what the upshot of this Girondin attempt to take down the Montagnard actually is. Hello, welcome back. We left you at a moment of high drama. The Girondins are about to take on the Montagnards in the National Convention.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Dominic, put people out of their misery. What happens?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
But don't they also compare them to Caesar, Crassus, and Pompey?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
The first transverse in ancient Rome.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Well, he's not on holiday. He's graduated and doesn't know what to do with himself. So he's gone off to France, supposedly to improve his knowledge of French. But actually, he's having an affair with a woman in Orléans, got her pregnant.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
When a dead pause ensued and no one stirred in silence of all present from his seat, Louvet walked single through the avenue and took his station in the tribune saying, I, Robespierre, accuse thee. Now that line is actually a bit confusing, isn't it? Because... It makes it sound like Rose Pierre is claiming to be... Exactly. I don't want to diss Wordsworth, one of our greatest ever poets.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Wordsworth lets himself down there with his lack of clarity. So this is in the prelude, which he writes much later when he's become a counter-revolutionary and a massive reactionary. Shall I carry on? Do. We'd love that. A bit more poetry? Yeah, I love it.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Well is known the inglorious issue of that charge and how he who had launched the startling thunderbolt, so that's Louvet, the one bold man whose voice the attack had sounded, was left without a follower to discharge his perilous duty and retired lamenting that heaven's best aid is wasted upon men who to themselves are false, which is a long way of saying that Louvet's attack doesn't work and he doesn't get the support that he'd been expecting.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And it's all a bit of an embarrassment and a letdown.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Because people may remember when we talked about the guillotine, that Robespierre was against capital punishment, but he is now saying that the travails of the Republic are such that the real crime would not be to support the elimination of those who threaten France and the nation.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Has du Maurier managed to invade Belgium, which you said was his long-term kind of plan?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
So this is the point of what Brissot is saying to du Maurier, is that this is now... An international revolution.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And so all these kind of little medieval aberrations are being swallowed up by France and becoming part of France. So Avignon as well had already gone.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And Dominic, by this point, there is a lot of singing of the Marseillaise.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
It accompanies the invasion, the victories, all kinds of things.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And again, it's a manifestation of the fact that now France is no longer a monarchy and is a republic. Suddenly they're winning.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
People in foreign countries who are particularly enthusiastic for the revolutions. Like Tom Paine?
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
So I think if that's what they're bringing, it's fair enough to get people to pay for it. Yeah.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
But the dream of a universal peace... We know where that's coming from.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
The erstwhile king. It is the erstwhile king. It's Louis Capet. Well, so that is what they call him. Yeah. Louis Capet, because the man who is elected king of the Franks at the end of the 10th century is Hugh Capet. So that's where the name of the Capetians comes from. It's not actually his name.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And in the next episode, where we look at the trial and execution of the king, we'll explore why they call him Louis Capet and not Louis Bourbon. But I just intrude with that. But they call him Louis Capet. That never occurred to me before. Obviously, that isn't really his name. No, it's not his name. And he and Louis objects very strongly to being called Capet. But we will explore this tomorrow.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
The National Convention, trusting in your courage, hereby accepts your oaths of loyalty. The liberty of your homeland will be the reward for your efforts. And while you defend your liberty with the force of your arms, the National Convention will defend it by the force of the laws. The monarchy is hereby abolished.
The Rest Is History
546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And this is a crucial moment, isn't it, in the history of what will happen over the next year. The idea that if you follow nature, then you can't do anything wrong, no matter where it leads.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Yeah, than Robespierre. That rationalism and virtue are to be equated. Yes. And again, this is the birth of something that over the course of the 19th century will actually become quite chilling. It's the kind of thing Dostoevsky was obsessed by. Yeah. And Saint-Just is the founding paradigm of the terrorists that you get in Dostoevsky's novels.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Well, yes, exactly. And also on top of that, there's quite a lot of intimidation, isn't there? There is.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And Dominic, that is the crucial, crucial line that opens up, I think, the proper understanding of the trial and execution of the king. Because there is no foundational moment for the republic. There is no proclamation. Right. And that is because the king still lives. So therefore the death of the king becomes the kind of the baptism of the Republic.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And I think that that is why Saint-Just's speech is so memorable and so significant.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
So if you want to vote in favour of a royalist party, you're basically standing up and saying, I am a reactionary traitor to La Patrie in front of all your fellow villagers.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Amazing stuff. So, Dominic and everyone, the scene is set. Louis will be brought to trial. Will he be convicted? If he is convicted, what will his fate be? There is only one way to find out, and that is to tune in to the next episode. If you simply can't wait, then you can go to therestishistory.com and sign up there.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
But either way, we are approaching the climax of this particular stage of our series on the French Revolution. So we'll see you very soon. Bye-bye. Au revoir.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And there's a place, isn't there, for the worst man in the entire history of the French Revolution? Yeah. The erstwhile Duke of Orléans. the cousin of Louis XVI, Philip Egalité.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And the Duke of Brunswick, just to remind people, has said that he is going to inflict a biblical fate on Paris.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
So that Dominic was yet another person shouting loudly, one of many in our ongoing history of the French Revolution. And it was specifically Jérôme Pétillon, who was president of the National Convention on the 21st of September 1792. And obviously, the abolition of the French monarchy after centuries and centuries and centuries.
The Rest Is History
546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
But Dominic, just to pick up one thing that is intriguing, and it's a kind of absence, is that there isn't a kind of formal proclamation of... the Republic. There's no official decree kind of installing it. And I just mentioned that because in the next episode, when we come to the trial of the King, I think that is significant.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
And I think that that is something that frames what will happen with the trial and the execution of the King. Because although it is a new beginning, although they've had the vote, it's kind of, they know what they're getting rid of, but they don't yet know what they're establishing.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
This is a seismic moment, isn't it, in the history of France, but also of Europe.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
They're all basically royalist officers and seasoned veterans and so on.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Was he actually fighting? I always wondered about that because I thought he'd just kind of, you know, he'd gone in the train and was writing a poem.
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546. The French Revolution: The Monarchy Falls (Part 3)
Yes, because I think that Jeremy Corbyn, he would definitely be on the side of abolishing the monarchy had he been in the French Revolution. I think he probably regrets that he wasn't part of the French Revolution.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And it's interesting because Livingstone is all about fighting slavery. His heart is in the right place. Stanley, a much more ambivalent figure. I mean, he's looking for Livingstone basically to make a name for himself. Exactly.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Why shouldn't I try to take charge of one? I went on along Fleet Street but could not shake off the idea. The snake had charmed me. So that is Marlowe, the hero and the narrator of Joseph Conrad's novella Heart of Darkness, which was first published in Blackwoods magazine in 1899. It famously provided the inspiration for Apocalypse Now about the American experience in Vietnam. But
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Because Hochschild compares it actually to plastic, doesn't he? It's such a kind of useful product, which is brilliant for the Victorians and obviously very bad news for the elephants.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
So it's kind of ivory equivalent of El Dorado, that sense that this is portable wealth, which is the key to gold in the new world, wasn't it, in the 16th century?
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
But also, Dominic, the spreading of Christianity is also intimately associated with the campaign to abolish slavery.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Britain has been leading that campaign since the early 19th century, and it has provided an absolutely crucial kind of moral justification for what has been a process of expansion of British imperial control. So Livingstone, even though he's not overtly an imperialist,
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
The fact that he is carving out a moral mission for Britain in the middle of Africa is obviously very useful from an imperial point of view. And I guess that Leopold is, I mean, he reads the Times, doesn't he, every morning. He is very alert to the kind of symbiosis between that moral mission to eradicate slavery and imperialism in the British form. And he wants a bit of it.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
It was originally written about the European colonial experience in Africa, probably the greatest, the most influential, possibly the most controversial book about that ever written, about the moral dangers of colonialism and also about the sense of the darkness that lurks in the heart of the human soul. The darkness in that title, Heart of Darkness, has many different levels.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
I mean, we're recording this today after the Trump inauguration, where all these heads of tech companies that, until Trump won the election, were all over their mission being to spread happiness and joy and promote diversity and equity. And now they've binned all that very nakedly. Do you think that this is the first example of kind of avaricious corporations dressing up their...
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
their greed behind a kind of show of piety.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And he writes it up in enormously long books, doesn't he? Yes, he does, which have great sellers. So he gets commissioned to write one book and he ends up writing three.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
There's also the darkness that is London. So Marlowe is talking about this on a boat on the River Thames, narrating it to three friends. So the sense that the darkness in Africa is reflecting the darkness in the heart of the European is kind of at the heart of the idea of the book, isn't it, Dominic?
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And he has begun that, hasn't he, on the east coast of Africa at Zanzibar. Yeah. And he's heading westwards. And he wouldn't be the first European to have gone from east to west coast. But he is the first who does it basically by following the line of the Congo.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
So Richard Burton, another great explorer, and not a man who, I mean, himself is prone to behaving quite extremely, but he said of Stanley that he shoots Africans as if they were monkeys. Yeah. In a tone of great disapproval. Yes. I mean, to keep using the word darkness, that is a shadow of darkness over Stanley's reputation. Absolutely it is.
The Rest Is History
538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
He's also, he's very awkward in his relationship with the other sex, isn't he? The fairer sex.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
I lose track of the women he's basically left. Yeah. And he's kind of dreaming vaguely that he'll come back and marry them. And there's a sense that he's going off into the jungle for three years. So he doesn't have to deal with women.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And blight the lives of millions. We will be back after the break. Going up that river was like travelling back to the earliest beginnings of the world, when vegetation rioted on the earth and the big trees were kings. An empty stream, a great silence, an impenetrable forest. The air was warm, thick, heavy, sluggish. There was no joy in the brilliance of sunshine.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
The long stretches of the waterway ran on, deserted, into the gloom of overshadowed distances. on silvery sandbanks hippos and alligators sunned themselves side by side. The broadening waters flowed through a mob of wooded islands.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
You lost your way on that river as you would in a desert, and butted all day long against shoals, trying to find the channel, till you thought yourself bewitched and cut off forever from everything you had known once, somewhere. far away in another existence. That's from Heart of Darkness. It's Joseph Conrad's hero, Marlow, driving a steamboat up the River Congo.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Dominic, the thing that always strikes me about that passage is it kind of has echoes of Conan Doyle's book, The Lost World, the sense that going into the jungle is somehow to go back into the prehistoric past. And in fact, in the decades that follow, there will be stories told of a great long-necked dinosaur that lurks in the depths of the Congo.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And there's a sense that Conrad is kind of... I mean, he's articulating that in a very powerful and not uncontroversial way.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Wasn't there a king? There was a king. Yes. A Christian king in the 16th century writes to the Pope. Yeah, he wrote to the Portuguese king. And he complains about the slavery. He did indeed. The kind of looting of his people. So I would guess from that that probably they're not thrilled about it.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Dominic, there is a British expedition in 1816. There is indeed. Led by a Royal Navy captain. Yes. who describes the scenery as beautiful and not inferior to any on the banks of the Thames, which is obviously the highest praise an Englishman can possibly give any river.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
When I was a little chap, I had a passion for maps. I would look for hours at South America or Africa or Australia and lose myself in all the glories of exploration. At that time, there were many blank spaces on the Earth, and when I saw one that looked particularly inviting on a map, I would put my finger on it and say, when I grow up, I will go there.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
I guess people have a vague sense of Congo because it became Zaire under President Mobutu, who was kind of the archetype of the kleptocratic African strongman. And yet there's a sense that no one was quite as kleptocratic or brutal, actually, as Leopold II. And there's a case for saying that he is the model for much that goes wrong with Africa in the wake of independence, wouldn't you say? Yeah.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
I mean, as you say, this is very reminiscent of episodes we've done before. Of course. 16th century Mexico or... Native Americans. The Great Plains in the 19th century.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
So Dominic, a question, bearing in mind what we know is going to happen. Did they need them at all? Would it have made any difference if they hadn't got these treaties?
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Yeah, fake. He got given because he donated artillery or something to the Union during the Civil War. And he uses it all the time, but it's completely bogus. He's a fake general. I mean, he's perfect. And he's a massive investor in Florida.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Hang out in London and everything. That is the last thing they want. And also, the French don't need to feel intimidated by Belgium, do they?
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
It's the weakness of Belgium. that Leopold is basically leveraging.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
He kind of briefly considered calling himself Emperor of the Congo, didn't he? He did. And giving all the various chieftains who'd signed treaties with him outfits modelled on the uniforms of the beef eaters.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
The horror, the horror, one might almost say. And if you are a member of the Restless History Club, then you can hear the next two episodes right now. If not, you can sign up at therestlesshistory.com and we will be back next time, continuing our journey into the heart of darkness.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Yeah, you say of the 20th century, I mean, it joins the abolitionist movement of the late 18th and early 19th century, which gets rid of slavery, with the human rights movements of the late 20th century. And it's interesting that it's very, very Anglophone, isn't it? It's very centred in Britain and in the United States. And again, Britain's role in all this is really, really intriguing.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
It's quite, I mean, intriguingly ambivalent, really.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
But also you could say, if you were an anti-capitalist, that he's kind of the exemplification of great corporations now who leech money from distant parts of the world, rely on products made by slave labour. Leopold is kind of the archetype of that as well, wouldn't you say?
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
There was one, the biggest, the most blank, so to speak, that I had a hankering after. It had got filled since my boyhood with rivers and lakes and names. It had ceased to be a blank space of delightful mystery, a white patch for a boy to dream gloriously over. It had become a place of darkness.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
So yeah, what is it about me and 20th century monarchs? The Kaiser, Leopold II?
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Yeah, she's like the Emperor Claudius and Carmen Harris, isn't she? She has a tremendous braying laugh. Yes, she does.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
You see, if he ran a bank, I'd very happily advertise his bank on the rest of the system.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
But there was in it one river especially, a mighty big river, that you could see on the map, resembling an immense snake uncoiled, with its head in the sea, its body at rest, curving afar over a vast country, and its tail lost in the depths of the land. "'Dash it all!' I thought to myself. "'They can't trade without using some kind of craft on that lot of fresh water. Steamboats!'
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
And Dominic, the fact that it's Dutch colonies, I mean, that must really irritate him. Oh, of course. The great rivals. The great rivals. I mean, even more than the Germans or the French having colonies.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that geography apparently was his only subject that he was interested in as a boy. So it's a little bit like Marlowe at the beginning of this episode, this idea of looking at the world. And Marlowe dreams of going on adventures there, and Leopold dreams of basically grabbing bits of it and using it to make money.
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538. Horror in the Congo: The Nightmare Begins (Part 1)
For Europeans, the wealth of Africa is associated with the coast. There's the assumption that there's nothing in the middle that would be worth the effort of colonising. Exactly.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But to be fair to him, I mean, one of the reasons for that is that he can't spare people from the barricades. There's only a finite number of people. And obviously the main threat from his perspective is the approach of the Prussian.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Well, no, but I do think that there are reasons why someone like Dantour, people in charge of the revolution, might be unconcerned with prisoners and the security of the prisoners that relates to the overall situation in Paris.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But I think that saying, you know, we can't bother with them, it's justified by military exigencies. Fair enough.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
It's all about defence of the fatherland, defence of the nation, determination to fight on. And there is a Churchillian quality to it. And I thought it subtly evoked a sense for British listeners of perhaps the resonance it has in France.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Absolutely. Because I think it's easy to think that it is a total massacre. Well, you wouldn't take your chances with that. Of course not. It's just really supporting what you were saying, that this isn't a kind of frothing at the mouth, mad mob frenzy. It's much more considered and therefore I think actually much more frightening than that.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But it's interesting, isn't it, that actually so few names are known. And in large part, that is because in due course, to be a septembreiseur, as they come to be called, is highly dangerous because it comes to be seen as a terrible blot on the reputation of the revolution. Not immediately, though.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And I think that that reflects the fact that this is genuinely not being organized by the big names, by Danton or Robespierre or whatever. It's coming probably from the sections. And the people who are organizing it are not people who will go on to great things to become kind of famous names.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But it's not like Marat is being named as a guy who's leading it. No, no, he's not going in. He's inspired it. But I think these are basically the people who had attacked the Tuileries, right? Yeah, I think that's right. It's people from the working class areas of Paris. They are representative figures from the working population of Paris.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So David Andress, who's written a wonderful book on the terror, he comments on this laconically. September 1792 was not a good time to be a captured forger. And that is putting it mildly.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Or indeed a criminal generally, right? Because you were talking about how throughout the revolutionary period, people have been assuming that criminals are in association with counter-revolutionary forces. And this basically seems to be why people are targeting people who are in for criminality rather than for political crimes.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
David Andress, he makes the comment in his book on the terror that there were always 30,000 of them for some reason. That again and again is his figure. There are 30,000 brigands, there are 30,000 criminals, they're all plotting. And clearly it's just part of the temper of the time. It's what people are obsessing about and terrified of.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Because they see themselves as agents of justice. And I mean, just to emphasize this, that actually of the prisons in which the killings are taking place, over half of those who are detained in the prisons do survive this experience, which isn't in any way to underplay.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I mean, almost half the population of a prison being slaughtered is hideous, but it's a glass half empty, glass half full perspective, I suppose.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I mean, we'll be discussing, won't we?
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Dominic, what do you find useful about Nord?
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And Dominic, I know you're all about cybersecurity, so you know better than anyone, it can often be very hard to distinguish fake websites from real ones. But the great news is that Threat Protection Pro will prevent you from accessing them. And do you know what? NordVPN is actually the first and only VPN app to receive the certification that their anti-phishing software, is reliable.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
She received a saber blow behind her head, which took off her cap. Her long hair fell onto her shoulders. Another saber blow hit her eye. Blood gushed out. Her dress was stained with it. She tried to fall down to let herself die, but they forced her to get up again to walk over corpses, and the crowd, silent, watched the slaughter.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So that is one of numerous accounts, and we'll be looking at the range of what is reported about this death. describing probably the best known of all the victims of the September massacres, who is the Princesse de Lamballe, who, as you mentioned just before the break, Dominic, we've talked about before in our very first episode.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Episode one is season one in our episode on Marie Antoinette, that she was a very close friend of Marie Antoinette. She's of impeccable background, a princess of the House of Savoy. She was notorious for being a bit dumb, was said to have a tendency to repeat clever things that she'd heard people say and then pretend that she'd made it up herself.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But against that, there are other people who rated her intelligence quite highly. She was a friend of Benjamin Franklin. So again, a bit like Marie Antoinette. I mean, she's not entirely opposed to the kind of traditions of sentiment and...
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
fondness for the poor that are feeding into the revolution but she becomes like marie antoinette herself a symbol of everything that is most rotten and putrid of the ancien regime she is seen as kind of a vampire like marie antoinette she's assumed to be having a lesbian affair with her and this reflects the fact that the princess de lombard unlike say madame de polignac another of marie antoinette's great friends who had fled the princess de lombard had stayed with marie antoinette
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
and had served her as her mistress of ceremonies in the Tuileries. And it is this loyalty to her which will doom her.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is so important for understanding the things that will come to be written about her death, is that Paris has been saturated in appalling pornographic fantasies about Marie Antoinette and about her female attendants and friends. And this provides a kind of terrible context for what will happen to her and what will be reported about her fate.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So we know that her head was cut off and was not there to be taken with the rest of her body to the section notary.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So the detail that you just mentioned about what happens to her head, which I think does happen, the story is that it gets put on a pike and it gets taken to the prison, the temple fortress, where the royal family are being kept. And of course, Marie Antoinette, the friend, and in the opinion of the crowd, the lesbian lover of the murdered princess.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And there are various accounts of what then happened. Some say that Marion Tournette looked out of the window, saw it, screamed and fainted. This seems an exaggeration. The likelihood is that she didn't see it.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And I think that, as we'll probably explore later in the episode, it's partly because parading heads on pikes has become a part of revolutionary justice. So the beheading of enemies of the revolution, the parading of their heads, this is part of the language of justice on the streets. So you would almost expect that to happen.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
There's also a terrible story about the Duke of Orléans, isn't there, as was, who's now become Philippe Egalité.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
It reflects very badly on him. I mean, the question of whether the stories are true, and I won't go into all the details, but there is one particularly notorious account of what happened that I'm going to quote. And anyone listening who maybe has children or who doesn't want to hear it, just block out the next couple of minutes. But this is a detail that was reported by a playwright.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And again, it's intriguing how often playwrights and fiction writers crop up in these stories. He'd been sympathetic to the revolution, but seven years on when he wrote this, he turned radically against it, become a counter-revolutionary. He's a man called Louis-Sebastien Mercier.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And he wrote, when the Princess de Lamballe was mutilated in a hundred different ways, so already there we have, you know, the escalation of the kind of torture porn, if you like. and the murderers had partaken of the bleeding morsels of her corpse. So he's saying they're eating her. I mean, the charge of cannibalism there is being overt.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
One of the monsters cut off her virginal part and made it into a moustache. The reason for quoting this specifically, partly it reflects the way in which counter-revolutionaries are drawing on the libertine pornography of which the Marquis de Sade is the exemplar.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But it also, I think, points to one of the ways in which the September massacres will be understood and have been understood, which is as an efflorescence of literal demons from hell. Monsters who have lost all trace of humanity and can perpetrate the most revolting atrocities.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And this will be a way in which, in the wake of the revolution, throughout the 19th into the 20th century, counter-revolutionary traditions in France and beyond will interpret the September massacres as being not a kind of clinical, patient, methodical elimination of people who they see as criminals, but as an orgy of destruction and murder.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So it's often said, I think correctly, that there is a presaging here of the notion of cleansing a state of disease that we see in the 20th century totalitarian states, whether it's the fascists or the communists. But I genuinely think it is also drawing on those Christian traditions, because you talked about a holocaust. A holocaust is a burnt offering to the gods.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
That's originally what it was, transmuted into a Christian context, because these are all happening in abbeys, in convents. And the sense the inquisitors had that they were doing God's work when they burn the diseased limb of the tree. This is very similar to the language that you were having with the September massacres. And I think that, I mean, I agree.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I'm sure that there must have been some kind of sexual sadism going on, maybe particularly at the Salpetriere. But just to say on that issue, it's a Salpetriere where the fewest prisoners are killed. I think it's something like...
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
40 did we say 35 to 40 but there are 280 or 90 there so relatively speaking i mean it's not like they're breaking into a prison full of prostitutes and going mad in the way that rakes in a sard novel would so i think that is for me the most chilling thing about it it is murder done in the cause of virtue
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But that is also why it's important for counter-revolutionary propagandists to frame it as pornographic, because that undermines the claim of those who perpetrated these executions to be virtuous.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But I think it is natural for those who repudiate the notion that this has anything to do with virtue.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
That was the episode that we finished the last season on.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But Dominic, also what we talked about in that episode was how the revolution equates itself with humanitarian impulses. And it may seem mad to talk about humanitarian impulses in the context of the September massacres. But I suspect that maybe a majority of the people doing the executions would say that actually they're not kind of publicly tearing people apart with horses or anything like that.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
They're doing it expeditiously. The whole tradition of hanging people from lanterns and then parading their heads is seen as revolutionary justice, but it's already starting to be phased out. It's clearly a cause of embarrassment for the revolutionary authorities.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
That is why, exactly as this is going on, the guillotine is starting to be introduced and is becoming more and more the emblem of how criminals should be dispatched. And the September massacres, I'm sure, must play a key role in that process. That people in the revolutionary authorities think, okay, fine, I mean, it's cruel necessity, but it would be better to do it with the guillotine.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But if you have a machine that can just slice a head off, you don't need courtyards full of peoples with butcher's knives.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I think you're being a bit harsh on Theo there. You say that it's not comparable to the terror. I mean, lots of innocent people die in the terror. And the difference is that death by the guillotine is more clinical than being hacked to death by people armed with knives and choppers. Don't you think? I suppose so.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
But equally, he literally is repeating the counter-revolutionary propaganda.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So to quote him from Citizens when he's writing about Caron, some accounts, including that of Mercier, so that's the playwright whose account of the fate of the princess de Lamballe we quoted, insist on the obscene mutilation and the display of her genitals, a story which Caron dismisses with the cloistered certainty of the archivist as intrinsically inconceivable." But we know that didn't happen.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
This is a key point, isn't it? Because it's important to emphasise that although it's the Swiss guards who end up being massacred, the opinion across Paris, particularly among the sans-culottes, is that they were the victims. Exactly right.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And we know that because of research that has happened since he wrote Citizens. So French historian Antoine de Bac, he's the guy who went through all the records of the sections and found that the body of the Princesse de Lamballe was given to the notary of the local section. And he recorded what had happened and none of these mutilations had happened.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So we know for a fact that that is counter-revolutionary propaganda. And that when Caron dismisses it, it's not because he's some cloistered archivist. But because actually he's right about that. That wasn't happening.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
No, you can't. But I think that's slightly to misrepresent what he's saying. I mean, he is saying that that is precisely the horror. They think that they're doing justice, and that is precisely why it is terrifying.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
He's saying, I guess in the way that a Christian would say about what the Inquisition did, and I think that there is an absolute continuity there, as I've said, that it's the realisation that you can launch a pogrom, execute people in cold blood, and feel that you are doing it in the cause of what is right. That's what's frightening. Yeah, but I don't think that excuses it.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I think that makes it all the more terrifying. No, but I don't think David Andrus thinks that either. I mean, I think that I'm no expert in the historiography of the French Revolution, but the reading I've done of writers who are on the left about this is that they do acknowledge that that is what is frightening. You can commit atrocities and feel that you're doing it in the cause of right.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
That it was the Swiss guard who had to blame for it, that the working people of Paris who were killed by the Swiss guards as they were defending themselves are martyrs to liberty, and that this is expressive of a kind of pernicious royal attitude to the French masses. And the Therefore, there is a need for citizens to be on guard against something like this happening again.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And as I say, it's like a Christian having to face up to the executions that have been done in the name of Christ.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Yes, and that's where the analogy, I suppose Sharma's point about the sanitation, kicks in. It's absolutely the right one.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
the evil as they see it to fester in your midst. I agree. And that is, I think, what is frightening about it. But I think that historians of all political persuasions would now see that as being what's frightening about it, I think.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Thank you, Dominic. Brilliant. What a cliffhanger. So much more to come. Lots more drama. And of course, if you are a member of the Rest Is History Club, you can listen to the next three episodes of this epic journey to the climax of the French Revolution right now. We will be discussing in our next episode, Olympe de Gouges, the first feminist, the author of The Rights of Woman.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
We will be discussing the fall of the French monarchy and the climax will be the guillotining of Louis XVI. So it's one of the great stories, not just of French history, but of history, full stop. And if you're not a member of the Restless History Club, then you can listen to the next episode on Olymp de Gouges this coming Thursday. Thank you so much for listening. Goodbye. Bye-bye.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Oh, yes, this is the famous, notorious one-star review in the Scotsmanism.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
This is amazing, Dominic. And the fact that you were cast in this role, it has nothing to do with the fact that Sherlock & Co. is a goal-hanger production like this one.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
I think there is actually quite an easy way for people to get a handle on this, because this is the period where the notion of right and left comes in, because it depends on where people congregate in the National Assembly. And people on the right now, on the far right, as we might anachronistically put it, is the default position that had existed three or four years before, royalists.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Then you have revolutionaries who have been trying to negotiate with the royalists and with the king and queen. Then you have the Girondins, And then on the hard left, you have the Rospieris, the Montagnard. And I think that's probably the easiest way to kind of get a sense of where all these various factions are. They are now on a political spectrum that we in the 21st century can recognise.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Well, it is, yeah. Because the right is now, with the fall of the monarchy, is finished. So it's now a fight between the left and the hard left, you might put it like that.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Which is a terrible, I mean, a fateful decision for them to push because Tours is a very royalist and above all Catholic city, isn't it? So not a sensible place for them to choose if they're in a life or death struggle with people on the further to the left.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Another man with skin problems. And people who've listened to our first two seasons may remember that skin problems feature throughout this.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And on the issue of Marie Antoinette and her friends in Vienna, I mean, they're not wrong, because Marie Antoinette has been conniving with the Austrians.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
So that Dominic was not Winston Churchill, although many people from the excellence of the impression may think it was. It was actually a Frenchman, Georges Danton. Minister of Justice in 1792, the Dominic Sandbrook to my Robespierre. Oh, that's kind. Thanks, Tom. And he's addressing the Assembly on the 2nd of September, 1792.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
About half a year ago, we did the Battle of Agincourt and Henry V is facing the French army, but he's taken lots of prisoners. And when he thinks that he's being attacked from the rear, he orders the prisoners killed because obviously the enemy within is highly dangerous. And there's a slight, I mean,
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
Comparing the French Revolution to the Battle of Agincourt, not probably something anyone's ever done before, but there's a slight element of that to it.
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544. The French Revolution: The September Massacres (Part 1)
And people will be able to realise from this that we are back with the French Revolution. We are indeed, Tom. Our ongoing series, aren't we? And can I just say why I chose to do it in a Churchillian tone? Do. Yeah, please. Because I think there is a Churchillian quality to that, isn't it? That is a very, very famous speech.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And everyone in Rome just goes completely berserk with grief and anger because they blame Piso for his death. And this anger also kind of involves Tiberius because they think that Tiberius isn't showing adequate grief. So rather like with the queen. Yeah, exactly. So Piso ends up committing suicide because he knows that basically he's doomed.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Tiberius, who is not a sentimental man at all, views it with utter contempt in a kind of Duke of Edinburgh style perspective. And so it's no wonder that he and Agrippina don't get on, having had that kind of, you know, that kind of relationship. And of course, in due course, Agrippina ends up dead and Caligula's two eldest brothers end up dead, presumably on Tiberius's orders.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
The whole Germanicus story ends very, very sadly with Caligula's two eldest brothers having been eliminated by Tiberius. He is now the sole surviving son of Germanicus and the sole surviving great grandson of Augustus, which makes him the obvious successor to Tiberius, which in turn makes his position very, very exposed and precarious.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Well, I think it's slightly more complicated than that because essentially the idea is that it's perfectly legitimate for an aristocrat to succeed to the estate and the fortune and the titles and the glory of his ancestors. No one has a problem with that.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And so the pretense is that the August family, the family of Augustus, are just a family like any other, even though obviously what it brings is the rule of the world. So there is a kind of a veiled hypocrisy about it. You are right. Of course, effectively, it is a monarchy, but nobody wants to admit that. Augustus doesn't want to admit it. Tiberius doesn't want to admit it.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
The Senate don't want to admit it. Everyone keeps it under a veil. And this will become important in explaining... Caligula's policy as emperor and why he becomes so unpopular with the Senate. But in the meanwhile, he is very exposed. So Tiberius does have a grandson of his own, who's a very little boy called Gemellus. But Caligula, he turns 18, he's summoned by Tiberius to Capri.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Suetonius is predictably very vituperative about what Caligula gets up to on Capri. So he writes, "...the island proved a treacherous place for him, rife with attempts either to trick or to pressure him into airing his grievances against Tiberius.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
But refusing to take the bait, he behaved as though nothing had happened to his family and their ruin had quite slipped his mind, dismissed the wrongs done him with a straight face so convincing that it beggared belief."
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
and was so ready to cringe and crawl before his grandfather and his courtiers that it has been said of him, quite justifiably, that never was there a better slave nor a worse master.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
How do we know? I mean, how can we rely on this? But
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
again the kind of the resonance of of the myth is so overwhelming that it kind of becomes historically significant in its own right so tiberius watches caligula it is said encourages him in you know joining in watching tortures or erotic floor shows or whatever and is supposed to have said of of caligula that he was rearing someone fated to prove a viper to the roman people
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
I mean, that's most improbable. Tiberius was, he felt that he was a deep patriot. He would not have wanted to rear a viper. But this is the perspective that will come to be put on it because, of course, Suetonius and other historians know what is going to happen, know the kind of man that Caligula is going to be. So 16th of March, 37, Tiberius dies.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Inevitably, there is what Suetonius describes as a plausible rumor that Caligula is responsible for it. So Suetonius says that Caligula poisons Tiberius. When he doesn't die, he then smothers him with a pillow. And then when that doesn't work, he strangles him. The death of Rasputin or something. Exactly. But presumably this is all taking place in an empty room. So how anyone would know?
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
I mean, you don't know. And so Caligula then becomes Princeps. Effectively, there isn't anyone else who can... take his place. Gemellus is still, I think he's eight or nine, something, so no way that he can succeed. And so he becomes emperor. And he does so as someone with very, very little experience of public life in Rome.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
of how the Senate functions, of the role played by the magistracies, all of these kind of things, which, of course, both Augustus and Tiberius had absolutely been raised in before they became emperor. He also has no military experience. He doesn't really have any friends or allies among the senatorial elite.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And so you may wonder, well, that being so, how could this very young man possibly succeed to the role of the world? And the answer is, is that Caligula clearly has a very kind of unsentimental and you might say pitiless intelligence. And the reason that he hasn't bothered working out how the Senate behave or, you know, the role of the consuls or anything
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
is that he's recognized that they that effectively doesn't really matter anymore that there are much more significant centers of power in the state of which the most obvious is this group of guards called the praetorians so a praetorium is the military headquarters and the praetorian guards are the guards that traditionally look after someone who is in military command and augustus in his role as supreme commander of the various legions across the empire
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
You know, he has to have his own Praetorian. And so he has his Praetorian guards and Tiberius has them as well. And he has built the Praetorians a great military base and the walls of Rome. And Caligula has recognized that this is what matters. And so he's made sure to square them and particularly the head of the Praetorians, a guy called Macro.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
He also, of course, has the blood of the deified Augustus in his veins. So there's a touch of the divine there. And the people, as we've said, adore him because he is the son of Germanicus. And so when Caligula accompanies Tiberius's body to Rome, He is mobbed and cheered the whole way.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And again, to quote Suetonius, ecstatic crowds of well-wishers called him their shining light, their chick, their poppet, their baby boy. The senators, you know, they're watching this and thinking, oh, lordy. I mean, there's nothing we can do about this. And so they vote, the 24-year-old Caligula, all the powers that it had taken Augustus a lifetime to accumulate.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And obviously they're not particularly happy about that. They must stick in their craw. Yeah, what can they do? They've just got to suck it up.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Yeah, he does. And again, I was thinking perhaps of Charles Spencer. That's from the first one. Yeah.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
No. But in that speech that Charles Spencer gave at his sister's funeral, which kind of really ratcheted up the sense of kind of melodrama and emotional intensity, Caligula, he recognises that his status as the son of Germanicus and of Agrippina... is an important part of his kind of mythos of his image.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So the moment he's arrived in Rome and become emperor, as soon as he'd done that, then he's off on a ship off to the prison islands where his mother and his elder brother had died. And he scoops up their ashes and he returns to Rome and he sails up the Tiber. He's on this great ship with his standard fluttering proudly in the prow.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And he lands and he then walks, rather as his mother had walked with the ashes of Germanicus, he walks with the ashes of his mother and his brothers to the great mausoleum of Augustus on the Campus Martius where he lays them. And he does this, Suetonius specifies, at midday when the city was at its busiest. So he wants everyone to see him. And he then goes out of his way
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
to kind of issue proclamations, essentially saying, you know, the grim age of Tiberius is over. It's a golden age has come. I am a kind of shining model of munificence and benignity. So he issues amnesties to all those who are facing trial on charges that had been brought against them while Tiberius was living. He revives the popular elections.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So the elections, you know, for magistracies that Tiberius had abolished. And this goes down well with the people. And he gives a solemn promise that he will never do anything to make anyone hate him and will never give ear to informers. So this is his manifesto. Also in contrast to Tiberius, very pointed contrast to Tiberius, he lays on all kinds of spectacular shows.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So we talked in the previous episode how Tiberius despises the things that the mass of the people like. He has no time for gladiatorial shows. Tiberius's idea of a good time is to have a kind of pub quiz. He likes setting quizzes on literary matters and things like that. That's his idea of a good time. Not Caligula's.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So there are gladiators, there are beast shows, there are chariot races and Caligula particularly likes chariot races. You know, he identifies very strongly with one of the particular teams, kind of backs them very strongly and he loves scattering largesse. So he will do this thing where there are kind of tokens and he'll throw these tokens out into the crowd and
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And depending on which token you pick up, you will get something. So it might be, I don't know, just a barn or something, or it might be a villa. So he likes to sit there and watch people scrabbling and elbowing each other out of the way to grab them.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And so it only says he was tireless in promoting shows of every description on stages across Rome and sometimes even did so by night, making the whole city blaze with light.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Yeah, and the Roman tradition, which had been manifest throughout the Republic, is that it's brilliant to be old. So that's why Republican portrait busts, they're always showing themselves with kind of sagging jowls and crow's feet and everything like that. And there's an instinctive sense that young people...
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
are just kind of naturally violent and aggressive and haven't learnt to temper their appetites. And Caligula seems set on kind of illustrating this. So they resent the way that he kind of makes jokes and he sniggers loudly, which is obviously very off-putting if you're giving a grand oration in the Senate. They hate the way that he's always going on about chariot racing.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Caligula has a kind of thing, I mean, it's basically kind of a bit like driving a very fast sports car. He has an insane number of horses that draw him on his chariot through the streets of Rome. He's cutting a dash in a way that they find very, very offensive. And of course, you know, all these gladiator shows and stuff, I mean, it's expensive. Tiberius had been very, very abstemious and mean.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So the treasury is quite full, but Caligula's kind of burning through it at an absolute rate of knots. But they haven't really got any choice except to hold their breath and cross their fingers and trust that everything works. will be okay.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And it is a good sign for them that along with all his other kind of measures designed to make him look good, he said that there aren't going to be any more treason trials. We're not going to have them. So you can rely on that. So the first eight months of his rule, you know, there were worrying signs, but there hasn't been kind of any major confrontation between Caligula and the Senate.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And then in October 37, so as you say, eight months after coming to power, Caligula falls ill. And this is a very dangerous moment because this isn't a formal monarchy. There aren't set rules establishing how, you know, when one princeps dies, a new princeps comes to power. And so the moment Caligula falls ill, it looks like he's going to die.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
All the heavyweights in his administration are scrabbling around trying to work out who his successor will be. And the obvious successor is this young lad, Gemellus, kind of, you know, 13 or 14 by this point. Tiberius' only grandson. So they are going off and kind of paying court to him and preparing to elevate him to the throne.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And meanwhile, there is this absolute toady, this lickspittle, a guy called Atanius, who swears a solemn oath that if only the gods will restore Caligula to health. then he will go into the arena and fight publicly as a gladiator. And obviously, he doesn't expect that this would happen. It would be unthinkable for someone of his rank and age to go into the arena and fight a trained killer.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
But he's basically hedging his bets. If Caligula survives in it, then it'll be great. He'll approve of his loyalty. And if he doesn't, then no one will remember it. Caligula does recover, I think, against the odds.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And he rises from his sickbed and he's informed what Artanius has done and also more significantly what the captain of the Praetorians and his leading senatorial backers, what they've been up to going around and paying court to Gemellus. And he moves with absolute lethal dispatch. So first off, he sends two soldiers to Gemellus.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So after your virtual visit, Amazon will deliver your prescriptions directly to your door.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
who sit the boy down and take out their knives and show Gemellus the best way to kill himself and then stand there and watch while Gemellus kills himself. And that's the end of him. Gemellus's would-be patrons, including the prefect of the Praetorians, are likewise ordered to commit suicide, which they do.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Atanius, this guy who has vowed that he will fight a gladiator if only Caligula recovers. Well, so this is what Suetonius says happened. Caligula takes him at his word and he forces this poor guy. I mean, he's not at all the kind of person who is fitted either by background or I think by physique to face up to a trained gladiator out into the arena. Atanius is killed very briskly.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
He's dragged off with a hook across the sand. His body is dumped and Caligula's sense of humour has this kind of bloody punchline. And People in the arena undoubtedly found it funny. I mean, it's exactly the kind of joke that would have appealed to a crowd of people gathered to watch blood sports.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
But it also sends a pretty chilling message to the Roman elites that, you know, there's no more Mr. Nice Guy. And there's the definite sense that Caligula has been biding his time And now that he has the evidence that some of the Senate have been conspiring against him as he sees it by kind of going after Gamellas, he is ready for the kill.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Suetonius, he has this kind of wonderful pivot in his biography. It's one of, I think, the single greatest line ever written in any biography ever. Where he writes, enough of the princeps. What remains to be described is the monster.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
One of my green flags is if I meet someone who loves John Lennon, I know we're going to be great friends.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Dominic, what do you find useful about Nord?
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Dominic, I know you're all about cybersecurity, so you know better than anyone. It can often be very hard to distinguish fake websites from real ones. But the great news is that Threat Protection Pro will prevent you from accessing them. And do you know what? NordVPN is actually the first and only VPN app to receive the certification that their anti-phishing software is reliable.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Right. So there are various examples that Suetonius gives of the character of a monster that he says Caligula has. Perhaps the most shocking is that Caligula demands worship as a god. So Augustus is worshipped as a god, but not in his lifetime. Augustus had really stamped down against any thought of that. But Caligula, Suetonius says he's all in.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So Suetonius reports that Caligula orders some of the most famous statues of the gods from Greece. Brought to Rome, he replaces the heads of the gods with his own head. Senators compete to serve him as priests. They offer up all kinds of sacrifices to him. So Suetonius specifies flamingos, peacocks, black grouse, two varieties of guinea hen, pheasants.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
There are times when Caligula will dress up as various gods, so sometimes as Jupiter, even shockingly as Venus. And there are other times where he will claim to be talking to Jupiter. So this is all clear evidence of either monstrousness or insanity or both. Suetonius says that he essentially goes out of his way to humiliate the elites in every way he can.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And obviously the most humiliating thing that you can do to a senator is to treat him as a slave.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So Suetonius specifies that he would brand senators, equestrians who had offended him with branding irons, after which, Suetonius writes, he would condemn them either to the mines or to the building of roads or to be thrown to wild beasts or to be shut up in cages on all fours like animals or to be sawn in half. So none of that's fun.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
He takes his vendetta against the elites, even to the extent of toppling their ancestors. So statues of famous men from Rome's past, Suetonius says, are toppled and smashed to pieces. And he also says that members of the aristocracy with famous names, they're told to get rid of these names. So the Pompeys, for instance, Pompey the Great, they have this name Magnus.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
They're told they can't use that anymore. That would be the kind of example. And there's also very kind of pointed sexual humiliations that he inflicts on them. So he will invite senators and their wives to dinner. And while they're kind of lying there, Caligula will appraise the various wives of these senators.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
If there's one that he particularly feels drawn to, he'll take her away, sleep with her. and then send her back to her husband, all kind of disheveled and is making it very clear what's happened. Caligula will then come back and offer a kind of commentary on her performance. And the wretched husband just kind of lies there looking a bit sick.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And this is where the detail comes in that Caligula sets up a brothel in his own great palace on the Palatine Hill above the Forum. And he staffs it with married women and boys, both of whom are of very high status. So, I mean, all good stuff.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Yeah, that's right. And so it is difficult to get a sense of it as a narrative, but I think it's just about possible if you map Suetonius' account with the various other fragments of evidence that we have to kind of get a narrative of Caligula's reign. So he comes to power, first eight months, it's kind of okay.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And then he gets murdered by his own guards at the age of 28. And in that time, he doesn't win any great military victories. He's not responsible for any great monuments. And yet, as you say, I mean, he has to be up there with Julius Caesar, Augustus.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
There's nothing particularly shocking from the senatorial point of view that's happening, even though there is a sense of menace. Then he falls ill. When he recovers, he eliminates Gamalus, his own conceivable rival, and anyone who he thinks might be a kind of particular figure of opposition to him.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And he continues in the wake of his recovery from that illness to pay lip service to his partnership with the Senate in the way that Augustus had done, in the way that Tiberius had done. But then it seems that two years into his reign, he's finally had enough and there is this most spectacular showdown. And he summons the Senate and addresses them
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
and expresses to them in the most bold, uncompromising way, his utter contempt for everything that they represent. He strips away all these hypocrisies that we were talking about earlier, this pretense that the Senate in some way have any autonomy or power. that Rome is a partnership between the Princeps and the Senate. He says this is absolute nonsense. It's ludicrous.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
The idea that Rome is a republic, madness. I am a monarch. I have complete authority over you. You are nothing. You are worms. And just for good measure, he then announces that he is reintroducing the treason trials that he had announced were cancelled with such trumpeting two years before. And the Senate... are so stunned by this that they don't really know what to say.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And Caligula sweeps out, and they all just kind of sit there, ashen-faced, as Private Eye would put it. And the following day, they all kind of reconvene, and... They pass a formal vote in which they formally thank Caligula for his sincerity and the intelligence of his comments. They praise him for his piety. And they say, such wonderful clemency from Caesar.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Even though we're worms, he's still, you know... We should offer him multiple sacrifices as a way of expressing our gratitude for his clemency and his general all-round decency. So it's a massive grovel.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
He has the Praetorians. He has lavished bribes on the Praetorians. They are the only soldiers in Rome. So as long as he has the Praetorians on board, there's nothing really that the Senate can do. He also has lavished money on the legions because ultimately,
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Nero as one of the most famous Romans who's ever lived. And as you say, I mean, right up to the present day, complete byword for cruelty. And also for sexual depravity. Yeah. Because he was, what was it, that thing, that kind of sub-porn film. From the 70s. Where John Gilgit embarrassed himself by... Sitting in a bath. Yeah.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
One of the other many hypocrisies that Caligula is kind of ripping to shreds is the idea that the role of the princeps is as anything other than a military commander. He is basically, I mean, he's not drawing attention to it deliberately, but he is making manifest...
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
that the underpinning of the entire system that Augustus has set up, which is supposed to be this partnership between the emperor and the Senate, is actually founded on the support of the legions. That's what matters. And so it's not surprising that senatorial opponents of Caligula recognize this as well. And of course, the commanders of the legions are themselves senators. And so Caligula
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
There is a conspiracy against him. And it's not surprising that it's focused not in Rome, but on the Rhine, which is where you have the highest concentration of legions in the entire empire.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And it seems to have involved numerous senators, two of Caligula's sisters, interestingly, and most dangerously of all, the guy who effectively has the command of the legions on the Rhine, who is a very seasoned general and a very experienced guy at kind of negotiating all the various changes in regimes and things, a man called Gaitulicus. And
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Again, the accounts of this are very garbled, but you can kind of piece together that Caligula is alerted to what's happening and he moves with very, very impressive energy and speed. Sets off from Italy for the Rhine. It's his first trip outside Italy as emperor. Descends and surprises Gertulicus, who is arrested and executed. Caligula's sisters are sent to prison islands.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
So that thing you read at the beginning about Caligula saying to them, I have swords as well as islands. So in other words, stay on the island and stay put or else I will have you hacked to death with swords. And the Senate then endures this absolute reign of terror. So Caligula goes to Germany. This is when he raises more legions. It's when he does that whole thing with the shells on the...
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
on the shore of the channel, which we talked about in our series on Roman Britain, and which I frankly said then, and repeat, I've no idea what's going on with that. I mean, there are so many theories. We don't know. It's an example of, I think, of just how garbled lots of the stories that are told about Caligula becomes. But anyway, he then comes back from Germany in Gaul.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
And while he's in Gaul, he's met by various emissaries from the Senate. And Caligula tells them, I no longer acknowledge your authority. I despise you. I do not recognise that you have any kind of role to play in the running of the empire.
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And it's on his return to Rome, it seems that the horrors and the outrages that Suetonius lists, which we just went through, that they seem to have been perpetrated. And it's a reign of terror that works because the Senate is effectively left completely broken. You know, they feel powerless before him. They grovel before him and just, you know, like, trying to avoid a bully's eye.
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So, yeah, so the kind of the flavour of scandal and depravity hangs over him. And some of the episodes from his life, I mean, you know, they're very well known. So he's said to have slept with his sisters, turned his palace into a brothel. Yep. He likes to humiliate senators, so he'll have them kind of run by his chariot or serve him at dinner, kind of dressed up as slaves.
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And I think that that's why he has the fame that he does. So in recent times, he's become almost a kind of existential hero.
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So this notion that politics is purely about power and Caligula is perhaps the emperor who most brutally demonstrates that, most brutally recognises it. But having said that, he does make one terrible mistake. So you ask, well, what's the basis of his power? The basis of his power is his popularity with Praetorians.
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And so it is foolish of him then that he can't... Caligula does seem to have loved a joke. And he can't resist making a joke even about Praetorians. And there is one Praetorian in particular, a guy called Cassius Kyria, who's actually rather like me. He's massive, you know, huge gym toned body, enormous rippling muscles. but has perhaps a slightly effeminate voice, a slightly soft voice.
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And so Caligula finds the combination of, you know, the muscle man and the kind of the slightly female sounding voice very amusing. Yes. And so Suetonius writes, Caligula would make Priapus or Venus the watchword. And sometimes when the tribune had reason to thank him for something, Caligula would hold out his hand to be kissed, then make an obscene gesture with his fingers.
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It's obviously very funny for all Caligula's hangers-on.
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I do. I do. So the time will come where he will inflict a terrible vengeance, because what happens is that Kassi Kyria and various other Praetorians organise a conspiracy. And this is much more fatal. As is proven on the 24th of January, AD 41, Caligula is about to leave for Alexandria. So there's, you know, if you're a conspirator, you need to get a move on.
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And that day he's staging a games in this great temporary theatre on the Palatine. Caligula seems to be in an absolutely brilliant mood. He hasn't reserved any seats for the senators, so he sits there and enjoys watching them scrabble and try and get the best seat. He finds that very funny.
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Also finds it very funny when a flamingo is sacrificed and the blood of this flamingo splashes all over one of the senators, you know, blotting his robe. And so Caligula has a good laugh about that as well. Lunch comes, he decides he'll go and eat in the privacy of his own palace. So he stands up and heads off towards his own private quarters.
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He's just about to go inside when he's approached by a courtier who tells him that some Greek boys of very noble background have been rehearsing a musical in his honour. And so Caligula turns aside to inspect them. And actually, I think that's the kind of interesting example of Caligula not as a monster. I mean, that's quite, you know, he's told these boys have been rehearsing.
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He kind of breaks off from going to lunch to go and hear them because, you know, he clearly recognises that they will appreciate that. And he's walking down this passageway to go and listen to these Greek boys when he runs into Cassius Kyria. And Cassius Kyria asks for the day's password. And as usual, it's an insulting one. So, you know, I'm a massive girl's blouse, something like that.
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And Cassius, Cassius Carrieri is not amused. He draws his sword and he strikes at Caligula's neck. It misses and hits the shoulder blade. Caligula stumbles, crashes down onto the ground, but he's still very much alive. He's followed by his litter bearers. They have kind of great wooden poles and they come to the rescue of Caligula.
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Again, a kind of illustration of the way in which he can command a degree of loyalty, but there's no prospect of them being able to defend Caligula because Cassius Carrieri is backed up with Praetorians who have They have hard steel. And Caligula is soon kind of on the ground being slashed to pieces by a kind of hail of swords. He's dead. Cassius Chaerea decapitates him.
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The consuls forget his birthday, and so he sacks them. And probably the most notorious story of all at least this is how it's understood, is that he made his horse in Catartus a consul. Yes. Actually, that's not quite what Suetonius says, but we'll be looking at that and perhaps teasing out what that whole story might have been.
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We're told that several of the Praetorians stabbed their swords through Caligula's genitals. So again, this idea of kind of sexual humiliation, which Caligula had repeatedly practiced, and now it's kind of inflicted on him. And there are even rumours that some of them pick up and eat his flesh, which I'm sure is exaggerated. So this is where Josephus comes into his own, the great Judean historian.
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He has quite a detailed account that seems to draw on quite authoritative sources. And so Caligula perishes as he had lived, kind of shadowed by horror, by horrific rumour and by kind of malevolent jokes. And that is the end of him. And so as we approach the end of this episode, it's probably time to just try and kind of go through and work out what kind of credibility can we put on this?
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How can we make sense of all these seemingly mad stories that are told about it?
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Right, so there is one... Obvious example of that. There's one story that's told about him that we can be, I'd say, kind of 99% sure isn't true. And that's the story that he committed incest with his sisters. So he has three sisters and his favourite is called Drusilla. And he is clearly devoted to her.
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When he falls ill, he names her as his heir, which is a striking thing for a woman in a society as patriarchal as Rome to be appointed the heir of a princeps. She then dies and he does genuinely seem to have been kind of crazed with grief and he proclaims her as a god. And we know that that happens because we have kind of independent evidence for it.
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But the idea that he'd been sleeping with her or that he'd been sleeping with his other two sisters, we can be confident that that's not true. I think for two reasons. The first is that the notion that a powerful Claudian, and Caligula is as well as being a Julian, a Claudian, sleeps with his sisters is an absolute stereotype. It's told about Claudian after Claudian after Claudian.
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So it's an accusation that is just kind of waiting to be served up. I mean, you might still say, well, I mean, that doesn't prove that it didn't happen in this case, but it kind of does. And I'll quote you a German scholar, Alois Winteling, who's written brilliantly about Caligula. He points out not only that Suetonius is the first to mention it.
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but also that there were contemporaries of Caligula who were familiar with aristocratic circles in Rome and well-informed and who heap invective on the emperor, they would hardly have failed to mention such a charge had it been in circulation then. So they would have mentioned it.
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Suetonius is the first person to mention it. Therefore, we can be fairly confident that that accusation isn't true. But that explanation doesn't wash with everything that is told about him. because there are substantiating reports that suggest that some at least of these stories are true. So how do we explain them?
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And another possibility, which again, Suetonius is the first to suggest, is that Caligula was mad. So Suetonius writes, it is my theory, and I have no doubt it is the correct one, very modestly, that his mental infirmity was due to the coexistence within his personality of twin but directly contradictory flaws, extreme self-confidence and abject timidity.
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And when you were reading that, people on the YouTube will have been able to see that, but when you talked about having throats cut, you turned and kind of grinned at me in a menacing way. And I think there is a slight element of kind of very, very dark comedy about that. About me or about Caligula, or are we the same?
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but again if he'd been mad contemporaries would have pointed it out they don't Is there not a claim when he fell ill? Yes, it's a popular theory. I don't think there's any evidence for that at all.
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Right, so that's why Suetonius mentions that he's both extremely self-confident and abjectly timid. I mean, I think that's exactly the kind of... example that suggests it. But I mean, that could be true, but it doesn't mean he's mad. And in fact, Caligula seems to have had considerable political acumen. I mean, what he does to the Senate is very, very brutal, but pretty effective.
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And when there is that military uprising against him, I mean, he outsmarts a seasoned military commander. So, you know, he may be malevolent, he may be pitiless, he may even be sadistic, but... I don't think he's mad.
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It lets them off the hook. But I don't think you need it as an explanation because I think it's actually fairly clear where Caligula is coming from. And we've already hinted at it in this episode, which is that Caligula is a populist, or to put it in Latin, a popularis.
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And we've talked before, both in this series and in the podcast more generally, about how politics in Rome is about vibes rather than about policy. It's about whether... you appeal to the kind of traditional elites or whether you appeal over their heads to the masses. And you've got to remember that the autocracy established by Augustus has only been in existence for 60 years.
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And the concrete hasn't set. People who are ruling as emperors are trying to work out what policy they should adopt, what role should be. I mean, and the people all around him are as well. And Augustus had embodied the popularist tradition and the kind of the more aristocratic traditionalist perspective. Tiberius had been a traditionalist. Caligula...
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I think partly out of temperament and partly because he correctly recognises the weakness of the Senate, goes all in with the popularist tradition. So his instinct is to kind of flatter and woo the people, to give them the entertainments that he himself enjoys. And of course, the spectacle of his enjoyment is,
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About you, about Suetonius' account, and perhaps about Caligula himself, wouldn't you say? I mean, there's a kind of quality of grand guignol. About all three of these people. So I think Suetonius is clearly revealing. I think there's a certain quality of black humour there. And actually, when I was translating, I felt it very, very kind of vividly.
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makes him very, very popular with the people and conversely to kind of turn against the Senate and rather than to appease senators, to crush them. And it's a strategy to which he brings very distinctive qualities. And I think that one of them clearly is a certain relish for cruelty and domination. I think that the sources are just too insistent on that for us to kind of, you know, whitewash it.
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I think he clearly was, you know, In that sense, a completely terrifying man.
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A very nasty piece of work. And with a particular focus, I think, on sexual humiliation. Again, even if the stories about him sleeping with senators' wives in dinner parties or setting up a brothel on the Palatine are exaggerated, the fact that these stories are told... clearly are drawing on authentic memories of the trauma that senators were made to go through.
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And for reasons, again, that we've talked in this series, striking at an aristocratic Roman sense of sexual self-respect is absolutely devastating to their whole sense of status. Caligula correctly identifies that as the way to really kind of break them.
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There's something almost kind of punk about it. It's so shocking that... Obviously, some of his supporters, some of the people who are prone to support him, just kind of laugh in admiration at how far he has pushed things. And this is a strategy that Nero will adopt as well. And it was a strategy in a kind of much more modulated sense that Julius Caesar had done too.
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You know, that you shock people and the shock becomes kind of politically charged. And... Caligula obviously revels in experimenting with that, I think.
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Right. And I think also it's the fact that they have the blood of a god in their veins. And so they can cast themselves as being somehow more than mortal. They're doing the kind of things that gods would do or heroes in Greek mythology. This is very overt with Nero, but it's, I think, pretty clearly the same with Caligula. I think he is kind of blazing that as a policy for an emperor to follow.
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I mean, you have to basically be a descendant of Augustus to do it, which is why when Nero dies and there are no more descendants of Augustus to rule as emperor, that tradition ends. But both of them are kind of making play with it. And...
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But it's clear that this is often Caligula's as well. So there was one particular account which I absolutely loved because it actually reminded me of the malevolent dwarf Quilp in Charles Dickens's old curiosity shop. And it's Suetonius' description of Caligula standing in front of a mirror.
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He fuses that sense of essentially behaving like a God, behaving like a kind of, you know, one of a hero from Greek myth with a genius for spectacle and an eye for recognizing how to undercut the privileges and assumptions of the Senate. And the single best example of this, again, a very well-known story,
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is that he builds this huge three-mile pontoon bridge in the Bay of Naples, or specifically in the Bay of Bailly, and he then parades across it. First time he rides on a horse, and then he rides in this kind of great chariot. And Suetonius offers this not as an example of his monstrosities, but as one of the good things, you know, one of the positives of his reign.
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And in fact, Suetonius' grandfather had watched it and had said how amazing it was. And we don't know exactly when he does this, but I think the likeliest date is when he comes back from Germany and Gaul, because I think it's pretty clear that what he's doing is staging a triumph to upstage all triumphs. Because to hold a triumph on the sea, I mean, that's the kind of thing a god does.
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But also triumphs, there's a set route in Rome that you follow, and it's up to the Senate to license them. And Caligula is saying to the Senate,
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So this is the last kind of attribute that Caligula brings to his model of kind of targeted terrorism, you might say, which is that he's funny. And people like humour in a domineering political figure. You know, there's kind of contemporary evidence for that, I would say.
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And Caligula is, you know, we've said all along that there is a kind of vein of dark comedy in Suetonius's portrait that I think derives from Caligula himself in large part. Suetonius, I think, doesn't get the point of Caligula's joke about his horse. So it's popularly said that Caligula made his horse a consul. That's not what Suetonius says. Suetonius says that he planned to make Incartatus.
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a consul. He also claims that Suetonius loves incartatus, which literally means hotspur. So he gives incartatus a stable fashioned out of marble, an ivory manger, purple saddlecloths and collars studded with jewels. And he bestowed as well a fully furnished mansion. Now, all of these are basically the markers of senatorial status. It's what senators want and have.
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And to be a consul is the ultimate dream of any ambitious senator. And Caligula, by giving Incitatus a palace and by saying that he can make him a consul, is effectively undermining all the pretensions of the senatorial class. He's saying, you know, I can make my horse a consul or I can make you a consul. It's very humiliating for the Senate. It's very funny for Caligula.
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Though he had a naturally off-putting and hideous face, he worked diligently in front of a mirror to make it even more so, contorting it into all kinds of fearsome expressions. Yeah, that's what I do. People who've watched the YouTube will be able to see. So I guess the question is, pretty much as it was where we were talking about Tiberius yesterday, is what is going on?
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But of course, in the long run, the joke is on him because actually nobody today remembers the joke. It just confirms his reputation as a madman. And it's, you know, the other example of the joke being on Caligula is the fact that Cassius Carrier ends up killing him. And my own suspicion is... I mentioned I went in and talked to the writers of Succession, the Murdoch's as the Caesar's drama.
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And I talked all about this period of Roman history. And one of the markers is that Nero and Sporus are constantly being name checked. But I think that the character of Roman Roy, I think, has quite a lot of Caligula in him. I mean, I don't know. I haven't asked specifically whether it was an influence. But he is called Roman. Yeah. He's the most Roman character. I mean, it's literally his name.
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And his character is quite Caligula. He's a Caligula who's still waiting in the wings, I think.
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How do we explain all the horrors and the depravities and these kind of grotesque anecdotes that sometimes shade into the kind of the blackest kind of comedy? Did they actually happen? Yeah. If they did, what's the explanation? Was Caligula mad? Was he a sadist? Or is it a bit like we decided, I think, that Tiberius was? Has he been the victim of fake news?
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Yeah, and I guess that's why Suetonius' portrait of Caligula has been so influential, because absolutely that idea that absolute power corrupts absolutely, Caligula seems to be the model illustration of that. So since Suetonius is so important to our understanding of Caligula, and it's played such an important role in propagating the image of him as the kind of ultimate mad, bad emperor,
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I think it's important to trace in some detail exactly what it is that Suetonius has to say about his life and reign. And one thing that will strike anyone who reads it immediately is how incredibly important in Suetonius' account of Caligula the emphasis on his bloodline is, on his pedigree, on his ancestry. And the reason for that, of course, most obviously, is that he comes to power.
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He becomes emperor, he becomes princeps, the first man in Rome. by virtue of his descent from Augustus, who is not just the first emperor, but by this point is a god. And Caligula is descended from Augustus very much through the female line. So his grandmother is Julia, who was Augustus's only child and herself got destroyed in a sex scandal.
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And his mother is Agrippina, who was Augustus' last surviving grandchild, who we heard about in the previous episode, falls out with Tiberius. Tiberius imprisons her on an island. She goes on hunger strike and dies of starvation. But it's not just the female descent. It's not just the descent from his mother's line that amplifies Caligula's status as the best-bred man in Rome.
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There's also his father. And this is a guy who is so dashing, so heroic that throughout his life and in the decades that follow, he is commemorated as the absolute darling of the Roman people. And this is a guy who rejoices in the name of Germanicus. And Suetonius tells us that when Tiberius dies, there is this great kind of upsurge of public, almost ecstasy.
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And it's not, Suetonius says, just because Tiberius had died, but because the son of Germanicus has come to power. So he writes, the entire mass of the people classed the memory of his father, Germanicus, to their hearts. So it Suetonius recognises this, and in his biography, he gives us a very detailed account of Germanicus.
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It's almost a kind of biography within the broader biography of Caligula. I mean, you could almost say he's the 13th Caesar.
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So he writes about Germanicus in the way that you, if you had a fake Reddit account, would write about yourself on the Restless History Reddit account? I actually don't, just to be clear. I don't have a fake Reddit account. No, of course you don't. But just suppose, just suppose. So this is what Suetonius has to say about Germanicus, who, as you say, he thinks he's absolutely brilliant.
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It is the broad consensus that no one has ever combined all the blessings of body and spirit to the degree that Germanicus did. Conspicuous equally for his good looks and his courage, he was brilliant both as an orator and as a scholar, in Greek as in Latin, celebrated for his generosity of spirit and remarkably successful in his endeavors to secure people's devotion and inspire their affection.
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I would write that up myself.
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That's the kind of thing Theo might say of us. Although even then, Germanicus bulks them up. It's a bit like me with my trainer. I've bulked my legs up. It's uncanny. I've bulked them up so much that I'm ripping my trousers apart like the Incredible Hulk. Right. Right. Okay. So Germanicus, he also has a brilliant pedigree, which of course Caligula then inherits.
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So he's the grandson of Livia, who is, you know, who marries Augustus, which makes him the nephew of Tiberius. And he's, you know, as we said, he's the absolute golden boy. And so this is why Augustus marries him to his own granddaughter, Agrippina. Basically, Germanicus is being groomed to succeed Tiberius.
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And the sense is, certainly with Suetonius, but more generally with Roman historians, that if Germanicus had managed to live, then this would have been brilliant. The world would have been great. Everyone would have been happy. So Germanicus is kind of deliberately trained to be kind of schooled in all the arts required to be an emperor.
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So he is sent off by Augustus to succeed Tiberius as commander of the German legions. Because obviously... to be a Caesar above all, you need to be able to command the loyalty of the legions. And he does very well, or at least it seems that he does. So his name Germanicus is a kind of honorific.
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He gets it because he is marching out across the Rhine to exact vengeance on the German tribes for their massacre of Varus's three legions. And he's endlessly burning villages and putting German tribes to the sword. And back in Rome, they think this is brilliant. So they call him Germanicus.
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Although actually, it's evident that Tiberius thinks he's a bit of a show pony and thinks it's actually all a bit of a wasted effort. But the point is that it creates a great stir back in Rome. And so... Makes people love him even more. And he's popular not only with the Roman people, but with the legions themselves who were stationed on the Rhine. He's very charismatic.
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He's a very successful general. He clearly cares for the legions. And one of the markers of that is that very unusually, and in fact, almost illegally, he has his wife, Agrippina, and... their children with him. And this includes the very young Gaius. Gaius is just a kind of little toddler at this point. And the soldiers, you know, he's their little pet.
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And so they make him a legionary outfit and he kind of walks around, toddles around the camp in his armor and his military boots, which in Latin are caligae. So they call it caligula, which are Little boots. Yeah. So that's where the name Caligula comes from.
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And in fact, when Augustus dies, there are mutinies all along the line of the Rhine because they're unsure what the kind of political situation is. And they're threatening essentially to reject Tiberius as emperor. And... The only thing, Suetonius says, that stops them from launching a full-scale rebellion is the appearance of Caligula.
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And Germanicus says, if you don't calm down, I'm going to remove Caligula from the camp because I can't trust you to look after him. And this, Suetonius says, shames them into behaving a bit better. Do you think that story is true? Well, there's a much fuller account of this in Tacitus. And yeah, it does seem a trifle more complicated than that.
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They're clearly very sentimental about him. And that vein of sentimentality about Caligula as this darling little boy is definitely a part of... his public image when he becomes emperor.
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So that's broadening his range of experiences. Yeah. And that's where it all goes wrong for Germanicus. Again, very detailed account of this in Tacitus. Suetonius gives a much more truncated account, but essentially what happens is Germanicus is sent out to the east as Tiberius' plenipotentiary, but...
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
Tiberius has also sent out one of his kind of aristocratic mates, a guy called Piso, to be governor of Syria, basically to keep an eye on Germanicus. And the two of them have a spectacular bust up. Germanicus falls ill, dies, and on his deathbed accuses Piso of having poisoned him. And the news that their favourite has not only died, but quite possibly been poisoned when it reaches Rome.
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536. Emperors of Rome: Caligula, Incest and Insanity (Part 3)
It has a devastating impact and a great kind of rolling surge of sentimental grief completely takes Rome over. quite analogous to kind of the Princess Diana situation, which Agrippina then massively ramps up by returning to Rome, holding the urn with Germanica's ashes in it, kind of walking into Rome, clutching it with her, you know, tear-streaked face and her dishevelled hair.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
Well, on that issue of spies and secrets, so tell us a little bit about the kind of spy stories that we can expect when we tune into The Rest is Classified.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
So my favorite spy stories are probably Gordievsky and Vassal. So John Vassal, who is a kind of great traitor, and Gordievsky, who the amazing story about him in the 1980s, kind of getting out of the Soviet Union and giving all this amazing information to the West.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
No waiting in line with people who are sick with who knows what. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical, healthcare just got less painful.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
On that splendid note of Gordon likening himself to Winston Churchill.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
Pleasure. And now for our listeners, we have a great treat. We have a clip from today's episode of The Rest Is Classified.
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Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
Thanks for listening. Listen to The Rest is Classified wherever you get your podcasts.
The Rest Is History
Russian Spies, Pigeons, and The Rest Is Classified…
Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Rest is History. Tom, today we're going to tell the listeners about an absolutely thrilling new venture from Goldhanger, aren't we? The Rest is Classified, telling the very best stories from the world of espionage. And it's presented, or I should say co-presented, by somebody who is incredibly close to your heart.