The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Thu, 23 Jan 2025
Megyn Kelly is joined by Maddy Kearns, associate editor of The Free Press, to discuss the story of one female prisoner who fought back against men in her prison, how Obama and then Biden made this issue worse, how Trump's executive order about gender helped to fix this issue and right the wrong, the way Trump has stood up for women's rights, and more;Kearns- https://x.com/madeleinekearnsDone with Debt: https://www.DoneWithDebt.com/Birch Gold: Text MK to 989898 and get your free info kit on goldFollow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow
Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show.
In today's AM bonus episode, the ramifications of Trump's executive order defending women from gender ideology, extremism and restoring biological truth to the federal government are being celebrated all over the country and certainly right here at the MK show. Female prisoners also have reason to celebrate. Men cannot be housed in female prisons any longer.
And thank God, because one journalist recently detailed a shocking story of one female inmate's journey and trial over being housed with men. And it completely underscores how just and needed Trump's order was and how disgusting Obama, Biden and Harris were. in insisting that this be allowed to happen. Maddie Kearns is associate editor now at The Free Press, and she joins me now.
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But you do need to hurry because some of these debt solutions are time sensitive and you don't want to miss out. Go to donewithdebt.com, donewithdebt.com. Maddie, good to see you again. How you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. Okay, so tell us a story. Start with the opening. Who is the prisoner and what happened to her?
Sure. Her name is Rhonda Fleming. She's serving a 27-year sentence for Medicare fraud in the federal prison system. And she's been in there since 2009, so before the Obama era policy got into play. And really since then, she's been housed with multiple men in various federal prisons throughout the country. And she's been trying to protest this.
She's been trying to fight for women only spaces in prisons for a long time. She had a lawsuit that was unsuccessful in 2017. The Trump administration first time round did roll back some of this stuff, but they certainly haven't been as forceful as they've been this time.
And then she just had this recent lawsuit against the Biden administration, which once again allowed much more permissive policies. And that lawsuit was held in district court in Florida on the 14th of January. And the judge ruled against her and found that her claim that being housed with two men violated her constitutional right to bodily privacy.
He found that this wasn't persuasive because she did have access to some shower curtains and partitions in the restrooms and so on. And so he ruled against her. Now, I spoke to her lawyer on Friday and he said to me, well, we're hoping that she won't have to appeal or at least that the appeal won't all depend on the appeal because hopefully Trump will come in and change the policy.
And it looks like he got his wish because we broke the story on Sunday that that is exactly what Trump has done with his new executive order.
So who was defending the lawsuit, the Bureau of Prisons, the Federal Bureau of Prisons?
That's right. So it was Erica Strong was the warden at Tallahassee, the federal prison in Tallahassee. And she was in her official capacity as a representative for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. So it was a lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
And so was it the feds, was it the DOJ representing the Federal Bureau of Prisons?
Yeah, so it's exactly, it goes up to the DOJ. And so this was a policy from the top down. So it started under Obama in 2012, the Department of Justice under Obama issued this transgender prisoners offender manual. And in that they said, you know, we don't have to base this on sex. We can base this on gender identity.
And that's regardless of what they called quote unquote genital status, if you can believe that. Oh boy. And so, yeah, so that obviously just resulted in men, men who hadn't even undergone hormone treatment necessarily, or even surgeries, being housed in women's prisons. And I should say, Megan, it's not just men, it's men who are criminals.
And according to the Bureau of Prisons' own data, half of these men in women's prisons are sex offenders. So it's, you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And there have been cases of assault and rape. Yes, there have. There was a case in California just now. So California, this is talking about the state prison system, so they've got their own laws.
And they have essentially a self-ID law, which just allows any prisoner, any male prisoner, to just declare themselves a woman. And then they are entitled, and the entitlement is a big problem here. They're entitled to be housed in a women's prison. And there was a really... terrible case of a man who allegedly raped and impregnated fellow inmates.
There's a lawsuit going forward just now under represented by the Women's Liberation Front. They're a radical feminist organization who are opposing this. And they're hoping that they can they can get, you know, all the way through with this.
And, you know, because ideally this would eventually go to the Supreme Court, because at the moment, Trump's executive order affects the federal prison system. But federal prisons are only there's only 29 of these are federal prisons. The rest are 143 state prisons. And they can really do what they like, as we're seeing in California with these really quite devastating consequences.
And even at the federal level, if we don't get a Supreme Court ruling or a ruling from a higher court, it could just get reversed under the next president unless Trump changes the law, which hopefully he will. He's got four years. I mean, this was an immediate way to address the issue. And, you know, I think there actually is public support now to stop this.
If you look at the latest polls, they're overwhelmingly on the side of reason, even amongst Democrats. So I actually think there is the opportunity for legislation here. But I don't know. The Democrats tend to be very cowardly on these issues. So what we'd really like to see is a law passed by Congress and signed by Trump that puts this executive order into permanent place.
But short of that, a court ruling, especially from the Supreme Court, would be ideal. So the lawfare that's happening does matter. So what happens now? So she lost, by the way, what do we know the background of the judge who didn't think it was a big deal and thought she could just protect herself with a shower curtain?
Yeah, I mean, I don't know too much about his background, so I don't want to sort of speculate, but I think it'd be safe to say he's maybe got like a more liberal record on some of these issues. And I think the lawyer also said, you know, it wasn't it. I think maybe Rhonda, the plaintiff, got a little nervous and there were some.
you know, discrepancies between her deposition and the evidence she gave in court. So I think it wasn't like the dream day in court they'd been hoping for. But even still, yeah, I mean, the fact that he ruled against her is obviously quite a statement. It should be a very easy case, you would think, especially, you know, most Americans can see this for what it is.
I did think it was very interesting that Erica Strong, the warden of Tallahassee Prison, said in her statement, you know, this is really about...
Rhonda Fleming not wanting to be housed with prisoners she views as different to her and you think wow like we're not just talking about you know just thinking like oh I don't like that woman she's too tall or I don't like that woman she's too fat we're talking about an objective recognized difference here right between male and female and the fact that this has been like
framed as being a sort of subjective thing is really, really troubling. And I think that is one thing, you know, with Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from, you know, LGBT activists. And I'm sure a lot of these transgender inmates are going to sue if anyone tries to move them out of the women's prisons.
But what it does do is it clarifies this very question. It says, no, wait a minute here. We are pointing to something objective. We're pointing to facts. We're pointing to biological sex, you know, the only kind of sex that there is. And so this is what we need to be rooting our laws and our policies in in order to keep women safe.
You know, what's interesting is now it's Pam Bondi's potentially DOJ. You know, I don't think she's not going to have any trouble getting confirmed. And it's Trump's government. So the DOJ has the prerogative not to pursue, you know, appeals in certain cases or fight back on the Bureau of Prisons in certain cases.
So I would imagine if Rhonda filed this lawsuit under President Trump, you might not even get a DOJ objecting to it. She might just win. She could get potentially even a declaratory judgment that she had the right not to live with men behind closed bars. But where it will be trickier is where the trans person sues to say, I have the right to go in.
Then Pam Bondi will go into court and say, no, you don't. We have a new federal policy. So there will be court decisions coming out, probably in droves now. By the way, this guy was an Obama appointee. But we're going to start to see a bunch of court decisions now.
And I think this is probably generally the beginning of a big case going up to the Supreme Court, which is what the trans community doesn't want, not with 6-3 conservative to lip.
They don't want it as well because I think the policy is fundamentally indefensible. It's obviously dangerous. It's demonstrably dangerous to women to have convicted male felons housed with them. We've seen the results of this. You know, like I said, half of them, at least in the federal system, half of them are sex offenders. I mean...
come on that's just like and and i should mention as well you know i interviewed um a former uh jail mate of rhonda's who's who's now released but they spent some time together and became close friends and she was telling me you know she she said she'd been raped like before going into prison she said this is very common in prison that a lot of women who get into life of crime have been sexually abused
And so if you just imagine, you know, talk about cruel and unusual punishment, just being in a confined space with with men who who may have assaulted other women could potentially assault you. You've been assaulted in the past. I mean, that's just you know, it's it's really unjust on just so many levels.
It's a nightmare. So do you know how Ronda's feeling in the wake of Trump's EO?
Well, it was very, very difficult to get in contact with Rhonda. As you might imagine, the president weren't all that keen on her talking to journalists. I did manage to speak to her. I won't say how exactly, but I wasn't able to consult with her after the trial. But I know that her lawyer is thrilled at this result. Well, not the result of the case, of course, but...
thrilled with Trump's policy. And I think it certainly is a morale boost for a lot of women who have been trying to fight about this for years. And I think the other thing as well is, you know, the American public have really woken up to this issue in a big way. But actually, prisons is a fairly, you know, it's fairly small fish to a lot of people because, you know, they're thinking about sports.
They're thinking about what's going on with children. They're not necessarily thinking about women's prisons. It's a kind of niche population. And so it's been all the harder for them to get people to pay attention, get people to care.
And I think that, you know, they're hopeful that with the change of administration, with this new focus on it, that they're going to get some attention and rightfully get the public behind them.
It's amazing when you think about it, you know, you think about all the, all the attacks on Trump when it comes to women, you know, I mean, that's, I made my debate question to him about the things he had said about women at that point as a celebrity.
But of course, then all hell was unleashed against him with the, after the access Hollywood tape and all these women coming forward to say this, that the other thing about Trump, EG and Carol, whatever that was. And who has Obama has Biden?
Have they even arguably done more for women than Trump who passed the anti-sex trafficking law, who on his first day in office signs the sweeping executive order to protect female prisoners? Not exactly the most popular group. in America, not to mention girls in sport, not to mention women in their private spaces, you know, throughout university systems.
So like he just a sweeping protection of women and women's rights for which he will get no credit at all, Maddie.
Yeah, it's interesting, Megan. I'm from the UK, and I know this issue has played out slightly differently over there, and there's been a lot of feminists and voices on the left who have been very critical of the transgender policy agenda. And a lot of them are saying, you know, they don't particularly like Trump, but they're saying, you know, you've got to hand it to him, like...
where was our side when we needed them? Like it's really been him that's delivered this and protected women and unexpectedly perhaps or ironically even, but you're right. I mean, it's kind of the results do speak for themselves and it's hard to imagine how that executive order could have been written more strongly or more clearly. It just completely-
Yeah, it just completely made it, you know, that look, we're going to talk about sex. That's what our policies and our laws should be rooted in. We're not even going to like waste ink on this gender identity stuff. It's just not relevant. It's not relevant to what we're dealing with. We're dealing with women's sex-based rights, women's sex-based protections, and we are going to uphold that.
And I think it was, like I say, you know, a big morale boost for a lot of women, not just in the United States, but everywhere.
Yes, you could see. We talked about how it was Mae Mailman of the Independent Women's Forum who drafted that with the help of a lot of others. And, you know, even before Mae got to it, it's just there's so many women and others, you know, I'm thinking about like Billboard Chris, who have spent large portions of their past 10 years fighting. fighting against this insanity.
And even, you know, I think about Kelly J. Keene, who's got, you know, all the merch like woman, adult, human, female, which is exactly the definition used by Trump's EO. Like everyone just had a hand in it. You know, you can see I can see the fingerprints of so many women fighters in this EO, which is going to change women's lives for the better.
Eventually, I have no doubt we'll get to the children. He didn't start with that, which is you know, the procedures for the children. But the polls are showing that the American populace, including Democrats, are against puberty blockers for children, too. So we're winning. We're winning on all of this.
And if we can win with prisoners who, again, with all due respect to Ronda, are not the most popular crowd. And as you say, it's a smaller crowd and it's not the most popular crowd because they're lawbreakers. Then we can definitely eventually win with kids. I'll give you the last word on it, Maddie.
Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. I've been reporting on this since 2018 and it's actually amazing just how far it's come in terms of public awareness, in terms of, you know, people just having the confidence to say, actually, you know, heck, I'm going to use sex-based language. I mean, I know you had this moment yourself, Megan, where you just thought... you know what? Game's over.
I played nice. It didn't work out. I'm just going to say what I think. And I think that has been so powerful. And so many people now are just free and feel free to speak the truth. And that in itself just changes a lot of minds.
Oh, it's true women's liberation. Maddie Kearns, a pleasure to see you. I hope you come back on soon. Thanks so much, Megan. All right, all the best. And we are back next with Ruthless. Don't miss the fellas. See you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. Increased tariffs on our trade partners, tax cuts, and regulation changes.
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