Maddy Kearns
Appearances
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Sure. Her name is Rhonda Fleming. She's serving a 27-year sentence for Medicare fraud in the federal prison system. And she's been in there since 2009, so before the Obama era policy got into play. And really since then, she's been housed with multiple men in various federal prisons throughout the country. And she's been trying to protest this.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
She's been trying to fight for women only spaces in prisons for a long time. She had a lawsuit that was unsuccessful in 2017. The Trump administration first time round did roll back some of this stuff, but they certainly haven't been as forceful as they've been this time.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And then she just had this recent lawsuit against the Biden administration, which once again allowed much more permissive policies. And that lawsuit was held in district court in Florida on the 14th of January. And the judge ruled against her and found that her claim that being housed with two men violated her constitutional right to bodily privacy.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
He found that this wasn't persuasive because she did have access to some shower curtains and partitions in the restrooms and so on. And so he ruled against her. Now, I spoke to her lawyer on Friday and he said to me, well, we're hoping that she won't have to appeal or at least that the appeal won't all depend on the appeal because hopefully Trump will come in and change the policy.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And it looks like he got his wish because we broke the story on Sunday that that is exactly what Trump has done with his new executive order.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
That's right. So it was Erica Strong was the warden at Tallahassee, the federal prison in Tallahassee. And she was in her official capacity as a representative for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. So it was a lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Yeah, so it's exactly, it goes up to the DOJ. And so this was a policy from the top down. So it started under Obama in 2012, the Department of Justice under Obama issued this transgender prisoners offender manual. And in that they said, you know, we don't have to base this on sex. We can base this on gender identity.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And that's regardless of what they called quote unquote genital status, if you can believe that. Oh boy. And so, yeah, so that obviously just resulted in men, men who hadn't even undergone hormone treatment necessarily, or even surgeries, being housed in women's prisons. And I should say, Megan, it's not just men, it's men who are criminals.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And according to the Bureau of Prisons' own data, half of these men in women's prisons are sex offenders. So it's, you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And there have been cases of assault and rape. Yes, there have. There was a case in California just now. So California, this is talking about the state prison system, so they've got their own laws.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And they have essentially a self-ID law, which just allows any prisoner, any male prisoner, to just declare themselves a woman. And then they are entitled, and the entitlement is a big problem here. They're entitled to be housed in a women's prison. And there was a really... terrible case of a man who allegedly raped and impregnated fellow inmates.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
There's a lawsuit going forward just now under represented by the Women's Liberation Front. They're a radical feminist organization who are opposing this. And they're hoping that they can they can get, you know, all the way through with this.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And, you know, because ideally this would eventually go to the Supreme Court, because at the moment, Trump's executive order affects the federal prison system. But federal prisons are only there's only 29 of these are federal prisons. The rest are 143 state prisons. And they can really do what they like, as we're seeing in California with these really quite devastating consequences.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Yeah, I mean, I don't know too much about his background, so I don't want to sort of speculate, but I think it'd be safe to say he's maybe got like a more liberal record on some of these issues. And I think the lawyer also said, you know, it wasn't it. I think maybe Rhonda, the plaintiff, got a little nervous and there were some.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
you know, discrepancies between her deposition and the evidence she gave in court. So I think it wasn't like the dream day in court they'd been hoping for. But even still, yeah, I mean, the fact that he ruled against her is obviously quite a statement. It should be a very easy case, you would think, especially, you know, most Americans can see this for what it is.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
I did think it was very interesting that Erica Strong, the warden of Tallahassee Prison, said in her statement, you know, this is really about...
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Rhonda Fleming not wanting to be housed with prisoners she views as different to her and you think wow like we're not just talking about you know just thinking like oh I don't like that woman she's too tall or I don't like that woman she's too fat we're talking about an objective recognized difference here right between male and female and the fact that this has been like
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
framed as being a sort of subjective thing is really, really troubling. And I think that is one thing, you know, with Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from, you know, LGBT activists. And I'm sure a lot of these transgender inmates are going to sue if anyone tries to move them out of the women's prisons.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
But what it does do is it clarifies this very question. It says, no, wait a minute here. We are pointing to something objective. We're pointing to facts. We're pointing to biological sex, you know, the only kind of sex that there is. And so this is what we need to be rooting our laws and our policies in in order to keep women safe.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
They don't want it as well because I think the policy is fundamentally indefensible. It's obviously dangerous. It's demonstrably dangerous to women to have convicted male felons housed with them. We've seen the results of this. You know, like I said, half of them, at least in the federal system, half of them are sex offenders. I mean...
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
come on that's just like and and i should mention as well you know i interviewed um a former uh jail mate of rhonda's who's who's now released but they spent some time together and became close friends and she was telling me you know she she said she'd been raped like before going into prison she said this is very common in prison that a lot of women who get into life of crime have been sexually abused
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And so if you just imagine, you know, talk about cruel and unusual punishment, just being in a confined space with with men who who may have assaulted other women could potentially assault you. You've been assaulted in the past. I mean, that's just you know, it's it's really unjust on just so many levels.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Well, it was very, very difficult to get in contact with Rhonda. As you might imagine, the president weren't all that keen on her talking to journalists. I did manage to speak to her. I won't say how exactly, but I wasn't able to consult with her after the trial. But I know that her lawyer is thrilled at this result. Well, not the result of the case, of course, but...
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
thrilled with Trump's policy. And I think it certainly is a morale boost for a lot of women who have been trying to fight about this for years. And I think the other thing as well is, you know, the American public have really woken up to this issue in a big way. But actually, prisons is a fairly, you know, it's fairly small fish to a lot of people because, you know, they're thinking about sports.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
They're thinking about what's going on with children. They're not necessarily thinking about women's prisons. It's a kind of niche population. And so it's been all the harder for them to get people to pay attention, get people to care.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And I think that, you know, they're hopeful that with the change of administration, with this new focus on it, that they're going to get some attention and rightfully get the public behind them.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Yeah, it's interesting, Megan. I'm from the UK, and I know this issue has played out slightly differently over there, and there's been a lot of feminists and voices on the left who have been very critical of the transgender policy agenda. And a lot of them are saying, you know, they don't particularly like Trump, but they're saying, you know, you've got to hand it to him, like...
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
where was our side when we needed them? Like it's really been him that's delivered this and protected women and unexpectedly perhaps or ironically even, but you're right. I mean, it's kind of the results do speak for themselves and it's hard to imagine how that executive order could have been written more strongly or more clearly. It just completely-
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Yeah, it just completely made it, you know, that look, we're going to talk about sex. That's what our policies and our laws should be rooted in. We're not even going to like waste ink on this gender identity stuff. It's just not relevant. It's not relevant to what we're dealing with. We're dealing with women's sex-based rights, women's sex-based protections, and we are going to uphold that.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
And I think it was, like I say, you know, a big morale boost for a lot of women, not just in the United States, but everywhere.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. I've been reporting on this since 2018 and it's actually amazing just how far it's come in terms of public awareness, in terms of, you know, people just having the confidence to say, actually, you know, heck, I'm going to use sex-based language. I mean, I know you had this moment yourself, Megan, where you just thought... you know what? Game's over.
The Megyn Kelly Show
True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989
I played nice. It didn't work out. I'm just going to say what I think. And I think that has been so powerful. And so many people now are just free and feel free to speak the truth. And that in itself just changes a lot of minds.