The Jordan Harbinger Show
1126: Richard Reeves | Rethinking the Purpose of Modern Masculinity
Tue, 11 Mar 2025
Of Boys and Men author Richard Reeves explains how we can address men's modern struggles without undermining women's gains. What We Discuss with Richard Reeves: Men are falling behind in multiple areas — education (60/40 female/male college ratio), mental health (40,000 male suicides annually), and economically (wages for men without college degrees have remained flat since 1979). Society often overlooks men's struggles due to fears that addressing them might diminish focus on women's issues, creating a false "either/or" narrative when we need an "and" approach. Traditional male roles as breadwinners have diminished without being replaced by expanded roles, leaving many men feeling lost and vulnerable to extremist ideologies. Increasing social isolation affects men disproportionately, with 15% of men under 30 reporting they don't have a single friend, contributing to mental health challenges. Men can overcome these challenges by connecting with other men, developing meaningful friendships, pursuing their own authentic path, and recognizing there's nothing wrong with being male. Building supportive male relationships and communities is essential for well-being and can counteract isolation while providing positive models of masculinity. And much more... Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1126 And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors: jordanharbinger.com/deals Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Chapter 1: What are the modern struggles faced by men?
It's just kind of upside down from what you might assume. It turns out that men are falling behind women in pretty much every area, at home, at work, and at school, and the gap is only growing. Today, we'll explore what this crisis looks like, particularly in areas like education, work, mental health, and beyond. I actually found this episode both alarming and enlightening.
Chapter 2: Why is male inequality considered a crisis?
I think you will as well. And now here we go with Richard Reeves. All right. You've said we're in a crisis of male inequality, and you've highlighted in your work how society often overlooks men's struggles. And even saying that, I've got this little, like, itch in the back of my head where I go, now I'm going to get a lot of emails just about this particular thing.
And usually when we're talking about a gender gap, we're talking about the gap that women face. It's a brave move for you to have even written about this. I would imagine there were a couple of publishers that were like... How about writing about AI like everybody else? What do you think?
Yeah. The good news is I don't know anything about AI. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you're right. I couldn't get a publisher to start with. It was a struggle precisely for that reason, because people think, wait, is this like a men's rights thing? And you're like, angry white man rages against the modern world, feminism, women, etc.,
And so it was a bit difficult in some ways, but that's the problem, isn't it? Because you think, ah, this is going to be difficult. So you don't have the conversation. You don't write the book. You don't do this podcast because you know that merely raising the fact that there are real problems facing some boys and men somehow marks you out as a misogynist, right? You've gone over to the dark.
You've red-pilled. You've gone to the dark side. you've turned against women, et cetera. And it's just such bullshit, honestly, that we can't think two thoughts at once, that we're not allowed to simultaneously care about what's happening with women, promote women, do the best for our daughters, et cetera. And also think, wait, why are we losing 40,000 men a year to suicide? Wow, is it that many?
Why are male wages flat for those without a college degree? What's going on here? And basically, if we pay ourselves the compliment and each other the compliment. That firstly, two things can be true at once. There's a bunch of stuff to do for women and girls and boys and men. And secondly, if we also assume goodwill in the person speaker.
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Chapter 3: How are education and mental health impacting men differently?
If you don't assume immediately that just by raising the issue of one group, it means you automatically don't care about or even hate the other group. That's not true. It's like saying to someone who's got a son and a daughter, right? You're only allowed to care about one of them. Which one are you going to care about? And if you care about him, you must hate her.
And if you care about her, you must hate him. And this is just not how people actually lead their lives. And in the end, I just think... The data's clear. A lot of boys and men struggling, especially those from poorer backgrounds. And if we don't talk about it, those problems can turn into grievances. If they're neglected, they turn into grievance. And then we're in real trouble.
And I'll get some stats in a second about how men are doing, but why do you think there's a tendency to downplay or ignore the struggles that men face? Yes, it seems like, okay, we don't want to be labeled as a misogynist, but is that it?
The real reason, I think, is a genuine fear that if you start to raise the issues of men, you will somehow be diluting or retreating from the necessary work for women. If you've only got so much time, you've only got so much money, you've only got so much energy, you have to choose. Like it's a zero-sum game, basically. So it's not that they think you're even wrong in what you're saying.
It's just that now is not the time to focus on those issues of men when there are still so many issues facing women. To be fair to the people who are concerned about it, and look, you started the conversation, Jordan, by saying you've got a little bit of an ick, a little bit of a funny feeling about this issue. I think you should.
I think anybody talking about this issue should be feeling some discomfort. I think it is a difficult conversation to have, but that's not a reason to not have it because otherwise the only people having it are the ones who have no discomfort with it at all because they can say, of course men are struggling.
It's because the bloody woke feminist agenda's taken over and we need to go back to the 50s. And so, unfortunately, the debate is dominated too often by people who don't think it's an uncomfortable conversation. It is uncomfortable, but we have to have it anyway.
That makes sense. You're right. It's a tough line to walk because you do hear from... people who say, hey, you're aggressing in this area. But then you get people who are like, finally, Jordan is coming with us to the dark side. And we'll get to some of what the dark side means in a little bit. But do you have stats off the top of your head about how men are not doing well?
Yeah. So I've mentioned, I think one of the things that troubles me most is the rise in suicide. I mentioned it's 40,000 men a year. It's four times as many men as women. And since 2010, the suicide rate among men under 30 has risen by 30%. So it's rising fastest now among young men. And I'm really worried about that. I'm worried relatedly about drug poisoning.
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Chapter 4: Why should we invest more in trade schools?
And I think a lot of people are still reeling from it, especially a lot of men. And that makes them very vulnerable to someone coming along saying, yeah, remember the old days when men were men and women were women and everyone knew their place and things worked? That's a very appealing message to men who are currently like, I don't know what to do.
And worse, sometimes they know what not to do, right? They know that they're not, the long list of things not to do, mostly good things, right? Don't mansplain, don't be toxic, et cetera. Good, that's good, but not really a very clear list of things they should do.
It's not a very actionable game plan. Yeah, and we'll get to toxic masculinity later, whatever that means. But it is, there's this evolving masculinity, but Your masculinity has to evolve. Okay, tell me what that means. Oh gosh, I don't know. Figure it out, bro. And good luck out there. Yeah.
Exactly. Good luck. Just improvise. Everyone's improvising.
Right. Yeah. We're really not doing a great job. Those of us that are trying are also overshadowed by grifters who are like, oh, I can come in and take advantage of this. But you've mentioned that men are often treated as malfunctioning women, essentially. Can you explain what this means? I love that idea, that concept. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's particularly true probably in classrooms, right, in schools. But then we can broaden it out, which is if you have this kind of default idea of this is how to behave, right? Sit still and study harder and remember your shoes, etc. Which, because girls are more mature than boys on average, that's a bit better at that.
And then you sort of say, well, that's how you're supposed to be. And then you say, well, the boys aren't like that. So they're basically a malfunctioning girl. And I think a good definition of a society that's a patriarchy is one where you take male ways of acting and being in the world and then judge women against that and just say, why aren't women more like men?
I'm old enough to remember when it was a big thing that women had to wear shoulder pads and learn to deepen their voice and stand in a funny way. Assertiveness training. Really? That sounds so ridiculous. Margaret Thatcher had to have voice training to kind of lower her voice. Because the idea was basically if women wanted to succeed, they had to become like men. They had to look.
But think about shoulder pads. What's that doing? It's taking a female physique and it's saying you have to look a male. That's obviously terrible. And quite rightly, mostly said that's absolute BS. Like we should change our workplace cultures. We shouldn't ask women to stop being women so that they can be CEO. We should just say women can be CEO as women, not as pretend men.
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Chapter 5: What are 'HEAL jobs' and why are they important?
That's right. There's a simpler diagnosis. Yeah, it's a boy. I have three boys. They're grown now. And I used to think, I wish you were more like your sister. They didn't have a sister. I made one up. I had an imaginary sister that I could compare them to because I had these friends who had girls.
And I do think as parents sometimes and teachers and society is that we can fall into the trap of either elevating like this is a male behavior and judging girls and women against that or the other way around. Just saying, and you roll your eyes a little bit at the boy and say, as you just said, what's wrong with you? And I did that with mine and I really regret it.
I really lacked a lot of empathy around that.
It's, I have to just realize that he's so young that I'm essentially his external prefrontal cortex that's operating outside of his body.
And by the way, you'll have that for 10 years, at least.
Maybe 20 more years. I don't know when they finished developing that thing. Mine took a while. It is about 20 years. My daughter will say something like, Jaden will be standing on the picnic table and she'll go, that's dangerous. And he's like, I'm going to try to fly. And I'm like, listen to your sister on this one. I don't think this is going to work out the way you think it's going to work out.
And it's just like constantly monitoring them. And then finally, now he'll say that's dangerous and then he'll do it anyway. And I'm like, That's not the point we're trying to bring across. But I remember when I was younger, my friend Katie was a really good student. And they gave us these student homework books.
And you would write the subject and write what you had to do in the lines next to it and write when it was due. And I would ask my friend Katie, how do you remember to look at that when you have homework? And she goes, when I come home, I just look at it. And I go... how do you remember to write down what you need? And she goes, when the teacher's telling you to do it, you write it then.
And I go, but then you go home and then you pull this out and you read it and then you do your homework. Because I couldn't get all those steps. That was not happening. She's like, idiot. All you do is write it down and then you do it when you get home. That was impossible for me to do. I didn't even get that until towards the end of high school.
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Chapter 6: How does automation affect traditional male jobs?
And right now, a lot of boys just aren't getting good high school education. So let's start there. And there's a bit of a, I mean, from the UK, as you know, but there's a sort of snobbery in the US about trade school and apprenticeships. And people just really think it's lesser. And that's just not true in Europe in the same way.
I've been trying to pop that bubble for years on this show where Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs. So he used to get really upset because people would say, oh, hey, Mike, I always watch your show with my son. And I tell him this is what happens when you don't stay in school. And Mike's, oh, you mean the people that bring electricity to everyone in the city are not as good as you? What are you again?
Like a... CPA? Go F yourself, pal. And it's just like, what do you mean this is what happens when you don't stay in school? You get a pension? You get outside every day? You get to work outside, work with your hands, helping people? It's just such an offensive notion that somebody who runs a railroad where you live is not as good as you because you spent more time indoors in school.
It's ridiculous.
One of the jobs that we have a real shortage for now is linemen. The people are going to go and fix the power lines. I live in East Tennessee when I'm at home. And when Helene came through, it just wiped out. And then you just saw these guys. And it was mostly guys. There were some women, of course, but mostly guys who were just... It's one of the most dangerous occupations.
I think it's in the top 10 who are getting up there, taking the old ones down, putting the new ones up. They're up there with electricity. They're up there with wires so that I could get my power back. And I just, anybody who looks down their nose at someone doing that kind of work, I'm sorry, that person is just an asshole. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent.
It's easy to say, but then, okay, let's pass the apprenticeship bill. Let's have some technical high schools.
The problem in the US, like the turning away from apprenticeships, vocational, all the stuff we just talked about, it's bad for everyone, but it's particularly bad for boys and men because that is a way of learning that just seems to be a bit more male friendly as opposed to the normal classroom. So it's great. Let's do more of that.
Yeah. So basically, the jobs that many men would be well suited to do, we don't want to do them because we don't want to have people go, ah, couldn't make it in the academic world. Well, no, I actually kind of wanted this job. You snobby SOB. Right. I understand that you also you've talked before about heel jobs. I've never actually heard the term heel jobs.
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