Josh Waitzkin is a retired chess champion, martial artist, author, and foil surfer. www.joshwaitzkin.com This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Now this is taxes. Get an expert now at TurboTax.com Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $200 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: dkng.co/dk-offer-terms. Ends 3/30/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
How did Josh Waitzkin transition from chess to martial arts?
Circumstances, coaching, there's a lot of different factors. But if you're a real prodigy, and there are people out there that are just extraordinary from the beginning, I find that if success comes too quickly, you don't develop the mettle to really push through boundaries and reach new levels quickly.
Because the only way you get there is through, you have to, I think oftentimes training becomes, it becomes regimented, it becomes something you do. You see incremental growth and improvement. You get confidence. But then when you compete, if you get your ass kicked, then you have to kind of reassess everything. Like, okay, was I working at 10 or was I working at 8?
Was I studying tape or was I fucking off and calling girls? You know, was I paying attention to my training routine and my recovery or was I just training and partying? Like, what was I doing wrong? Like, what led this person to land those shots? What led this person to beat me?
Yeah.
And if you don't have those moments where you lose, I don't think you ever really achieve your true potential because you have to be challenged. And the best expression of challenge is total humiliating defeat. Absolutely.
And so consistently, the biggest losses, the most crushing losses are what lead to the biggest wins later. Sometimes many years later. And people often... I remember I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition for a charity in my 20s somewhere. And this guy introduced his son and he said his son hadn't lost a chess game in two years. And he was so proud.
And it's just like, I knew it was a fucking train wreck. I mean, the kid obviously just was only choosing people to play who he could beat, wouldn't compete up in tournaments, would only play down. And he was the only kid who didn't want to play against me in the simul. And so his life was protecting this perfect thing, right? People who don't lose.
So in my chess life, the interesting thing that happened in my psychology is that I was the top-rated player for my age in the country from a young age, but I always played up. I always played against adults. Except for nationals and worlds, I played up. And all of my rivals were targeting me because I was the top seed in youth events. But their coaches were much stronger players than me.
They were adult international masters, grandmasters, and they could see all my weaknesses. Right. psychological, technical, everything. And so if I ever made a mistake, the weakness was exploited until I took it on. And so I developed from really young age this relationship to training, which was if I didn't take on my weakness, I got my ass kicked and I felt pain.
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