James Fox is a UFO investigator and documentary filmmaker. His new film, “The Program,” is available to stream now. https://geni.us/TheProgram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the main topic of this episode?
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Showing by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
UFO expert in. A lot has been going on.
This is, you know, I had, I know you ran into him. I had Ryan Graves on yesterday.
Oh my God. I'll tell you the funny story about how I ran into him.
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Chapter 2: What experiences does James Fox have with UFOs?
You ran into him in the lobby of the hotel, right?
So the lobby told me, they're all, don't use this one elevator. It's really rickety and it makes a lot of noise and it's just, it's not very reliable and just don't use it. So I didn't. And then I was leaving 24 hours later to come down and get some coffee. And I was like, ah, fuck it. Let me take the rickety elevator. I was like, they told me not to take it, but I'm going to take it anyway.
So I push the button. I'm standing there.
I hear this.
The door's open. I look. I see this shadowy figure in the corner. I'm like, Ryan Graves? What are you doing? He goes, I don't know. What are you doing? I was like, are you doing what I think you're doing? He goes, yeah. Did he tell you that? Did he tell you that?
Yes, he did. He told me he ran into you. He didn't tell me the whole story about the rickety old man.
Yeah, yeah. And he was like this shadowy figure up against the corner, like kind of just, you know, looking at him. He was looking at me. It was really funny.
We talked a lot of nonsense about aliens, but we also talked about the technology that he knows is state-of-the-art when it comes to drones.
Yes.
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Chapter 3: What is the significance of the recent congressional hearings on UFOs?
How could these incursions have been taking place and like here we are 20 years later and we're only now really starting to talk about them?
I think the reason being is if you don't understand it and you can't protect people from it because it's so beyond our capabilities that if just describing it accurately removes all confidence that our government has everything under control. That's one reason why. And also if you have no answers, you don't know what the hell it is. That's a very good point, yes.
If you don't know what the hell it is, what are you even going to say? Hey, there's something that came. We don't know what the fuck it is. It's as big as a football field. Shot off into the sky. We have no idea. They'd be like, what do you mean we have no idea? Hire someone who understands this. And then they'd be like, fire him. Get him out of office.
I remember like 20 years ago, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, totally naive. I mean, still naive. But I was meeting with a general. And I said, God, it'll be so amazing. You know, this story is like so unifying and we had this kumbaya moment and we discovered that, you know, we're not alone in the universe. And wouldn't that be amazing? And blah, blah, blah. The implications for all of humanity.
And he sat there almost chuckling at me. And he goes, looked at me and he goes, you got it all wrong, man. You know, you got to see this through our lens. I was like, through your lens? He goes, yeah, the military's perspective. I was like, OK, tell me. And I never thought about this before. You just mentioned it. He goes, okay, imagine this scenario.
We sit there and we say, you know, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to our attention that there are craft of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity in our airspace. They exhibit a technology that's light years advanced from anything that we have. We don't know who they are, where they come from, what they want. Shall they turn to be hostile?
We have no visible means of defense against them. Thank you and good night.
You're fired. You're fired. Someone like Trump will come along, I'll make a deal with the aliens. Do you see that predicament? People always go, why the secrecy? Duh. Yeah, you have to have secrecy because you've got to imagine the job of a politician in general. You have to pretend that you're going to be able to handle situations that you well know you're not going to be able to handle.
If you're running for president, you know that you're not going to fix this economy. Stop.
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Chapter 4: What evidence is there for UFO crash retrieval programs?
Yesterday.
Oh, beautiful.
I know. So it came out yesterday. It's on Amazon. It's on Apple TV. And you can Google the... Because they... Algorithms are just starting to catch up with it on Google right now because everyone's like, I can't find it. Look up the program and then Google James Fox UFO documentary, the program. You will 100% find it. It's being also made available internationally.
They're working as fast as they can to get it up. It just went up yesterday. It's the most independent film from start to finish that I've ever made. And it covers... What happened, because everybody thinks the government suddenly had this epiphany to decide to be more transparent with the general public. That's not what happened.
What happened is there were a couple of intel insiders in the Pentagon reviewing some of this classified data, our so-called classified data, and resigned in protest of excessive secrecy. They found a loophole. This is Lou, probably Jay Stratton. I don't know for sure. Definitely Chris Mellon. And they walked these evidence tapes out of the Pentagon through this loophole.
They bent the rules a little bit and onto the front page of the New York Times, right? So that happened. And it got, it was just, it was exploded. You remember that. And since then, there has been this unprecedented push by a bipartisan group of lawmakers to find out what the intelligence agencies know and when they knew it. And so that started happening behind the scenes, right?
So it was 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021. And then in 2022, they were like, we're having a congressional hearing. Congressman Andre Carson, I think he's a Wisconsin, but I'm not positive. He put on, he spearheaded the first open congressional hearing, public open congressional hearing. And in that congressional hearing, they acknowledged the fact that The phenomenon was real.
It was slowly introduced that we were not getting told the facts. There was a document that came out called the Wilson Davis Memo. And that was about the discovery by a former DIA guy, Admiral Wilson, of the crash retrieval program that was like maybe 20, 20 plus years ago. And none of the names or anything in that document were redacted. I cover that memo in the film. And then...
2023, another congressional hearing. This time it was David Grush talking about the crash retrieval program. It's been a steady progression. And so a lot has gone on between 2017 and 2024. And that is what this film does is it covers behind the scenes effort, bipartisan group of lawmakers effort to find out what the intelligence agencies really know. Yeah.
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Chapter 5: How does James Fox describe his new film, The Program?
So this is Zoom? Is this why it's moving around like that? They're trying to keep it in focus and they're zooming on it?
Mr. Sands explains all of that in the film, the program. He talks about it. So anyway, so this leaks. People's names, the witnesses leaks. And... Three days later, he's in a convoy. Gesundheit. He's in a convoy, and it's early in the morning, and there's three Jeeps, trucks, Jeeps, in convoy on a dirt road heading out Nellis Test Range.
And they see what looks like maybe somebody was involved in a plane crash, somebody that was struggling out in the middle of the desert. It was early in the morning, wintertime, and they're looking at this individual like, oh, my God, is that a person? That individual needs some help. That individual looks like they need some help. They look cold. Their skin had a slight blue tint to it.
And they're looking at this gentleman, and they're like, hey, stop the convoy. This person needs help, medical attention. Maybe they had a plane crash, and so we're going to help this person out. And they pull the convoy over, and this individual comes up to the car. Jason Sands gets out the right side of the door, and as he's getting out, somebody in the truck screams, he's got no effing ears.
And Jason says, he turns around and he looks at this guy and he had the same kind of uniform that they had had on, but the uniform was just immaculate. Like there wasn't any dust on it, no dust on the boots. And he was thinking to myself, well, that's weird. This guy's got no ears. Is this guy some kind of mutant? And he looks at him and he said his eyes were a lot bigger.
It's all illustrated in the movie. And then he starts talking like... He said it was like a snake bite him and he was just paralyzed with fear. It was really scary. What am I looking at? Is this a human? Is this a mutant? Is this an alien? What is this? And he starts talking to him in gibberish. But he said he started to understand telepathically everything this...
person or an entity, being, creature, alien, whatever you want to call it, was saying to him, and he was looking for some kind of metal, and he didn't know tantalium, and Jason's like, you know, I don't know, I don't have any, you mean titanium? He's like, no, tantalium or something.
And this conversation goes on for a bit, and then the guy just wanders back off and gets into that little craft that looked very similar to what you just saw there and flies away. And he sort of stair-stepped away, and everybody sort of came out of this comatose state and left.
off and off they went and um we have the names of the other military witnesses that were on duty during the encounter the alleged encounter people are going to criticize me because i'm reporting on a close encounter of the third kind but this jason sands says he's willing to do a lie detector test like public he's willing to testify under oath that everything he's saying is true
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of the UAP phenomenon?
So I grabbed my dog, and I turned around, and I started running. And I knew that I shouldn't be running. So I'm running, going, I shouldn't be running. I shouldn't be running. I know I shouldn't be running. But I wanted to get around the corner and get out of its line of sight. And then I go... I go, well, if he comes up on me, I'm going to have to throw my dog.
I was like, I looked at Duke, and if it comes down to it, Duke, you're going to have to take one for the team. Oh, my God. That's a horrible choice. It's a horrible choice, but I had my son. Of course. I get it. But I remember looking at him, and I was looking at my dog going, oh, man, this is a horrible decision I have to make. But if it comes down to it, I'm going to have to sacrifice you, buddy.
I love you. But it didn't come down to it. But I remember running, going, you're an idiot, James.
Why are you running? You're not supposed to be running. You can't run. Well, that's the problem with mountain bikers. They get got because when they pass by a cat, it's almost like rolling a ball of yarn past a kitten. They are predators. And they'll catch bikes, huh? Oh, yeah, they get people on bikes. Yeah, that's happened a few times. They get people on bikes.
They get joggers, people on bikes. They think you're running away from them. They can't help it.
Could you imagine what it was like to be running for your life, having something like that chase you?
Yeah, I can. I mean, it hasn't happened to me, but I've seen them. I've seen three of them in my lifetime, only one of them that scared the shit out of me. I saw one in Colorado. I saw one in Montecito, like the Santa Barbara area. It was small. Those are small ones. They were like 50, 60 pounds.
And then I saw one with a buddy of mine, my friend Colton and I. We spotted one under a tree that was 30 yards away. And we were in a truck and it made me shit my pants.
Wow.
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Chapter 7: How do government officials view unidentified aerial phenomena?
Let's see the real photograph.
Yeah, show the real photograph again. I got it. There it is. Yep.
Okay, so what was he doing? Show the fake one one more time. Yeah, that was just a recreation before it leaked out. So was he just recreating what he remembered? Yes. Let me see the real one again. It's pretty damn good, isn't it, that he remembered that?
Not bad.
Not bad. Missed the barbed wire fence, but not bad. Put in a bunch of bullshit background.
I went to the exact location.
All the bullshit he put in there. Put in beautiful hills.
I know. And that fence is still there. Go back to the real one? Yeah, that fence is still there. I took a modern- So what is that jet in the background? A Harrier jet is what I'm told. They're 99% sure. And was that Harrier jet- trying to figure out what this was?
Well, like I said, in the other prints, according to Craig Lindsay, the RAF press officer, he said the other six prints or five prints had that Harrier jet in a different position. So he said it was as if the Harrier jet flew around checking that out. Now, where are those other We have other M.O.D. just gone. They killed the story. I mean, the guy at the M.O.D.
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Chapter 8: What personal experiences do James Fox and Joe Rogan share about UFOs?
and he in an official capacity with a high level clearance he had been investigating ufos ever since the new york times article in 2017. so he was behind the scenes 2017 2018 the tail end of 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 22 23 24 and then he stepped down and he came um through some intel folks we got in touch and i said hey man my film's almost done if you want i could squeeze in one final interview he decided to participate up he went we became friends we've been talking
And he said, hey, I could probably arrange a meeting because there's some mutual interest in some UFO cases and evidence that I've been going after as a civilian. But he goes, hey, on the inside, if you want, I can hook you up with the heads of Arrow, the new heads of Arrow, John Koskowski and this other guy, Ryan, who was Air Force Office Special Investigations. This is just a couple weeks ago.
So I went to the congressional hearings, which was incredible. And people say, oh, it was a big nothing burger. But you know what? It was very exciting seeing people testify under oath. There's a crash relief program. Seeing a rear admiral, Tim Gallaudet, saying that they're under the water. I mean, it's pretty fascinating stuff.
So I had to apply for a security background on me, which was about 48 hours. And then I got approval for that. And then I showed up at a wing across the street from the Pentagon. And I had to go through the metal detector. And then there are these kind of exciting for me because I had never had this kind of experience before.
There are these like glass tube type things that were lined up like in a row. And I only one person go in at a time. The doors open just like in Star Trek. And you walk in and that door closes. Then another one opens. You go to the other side. Then I had to get rid of my phone and everything and leave it outside. And then I go into a skiff. which is a sensitive compartmented information facility.
It's gifts, all super top secret, whatever. And I got to meet with the new head of Arrow, John Koskowski. I was like, I can't believe I'm in the belly of the beast. This is crazy. How could I? I'm a civilian. I don't belong here. But we started talking, just very nonchalantly. I said, hey, you guys got to throw us a bone.
said you know we're not going away this story is not going away and i said you know and you know what we're ultimately dealing with i mean obviously the vast majority of uap or ufos can be and have been explained away in down-to-earth conventional terms right but there's a stubborn core 15 20 percent that really defy conventional explanation not because of a lack of data because they truly can't explain what these things do and you know well you've had many people on
These objects exhibit a technology that's just light years advanced from anything that we have. And it's been well documented since the 1940s, and possibly some people would say way before that. But modern-day UFO wave, no question. So there's two stories. One is someone's been in possession of this revolutionary technology for 85-plus years and kept it secret. Or two, we're not alone, right?
Right. I said to the gentleman, very candidly, you know, we're probably dealing with a small percentage of NHI. What's the plan to tell the general public? And this is just a couple weeks ago. And he looked at me and he goes, James, I can't part my hair without approval from the DOD. And you can quote me on that.
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