The Dr. John Delony Show
Conflict Expert: Simple Frameworks to Make Hard Conversations Easier (With Jefferson Fisher)
Mon, 31 Mar 2025
On today’s episode, John Delony sits down with attorney and conversation expert Jefferson Fisher to discuss why winning arguments should not be your end goal. Next Steps: 👨💼 Learn more about Jefferson Fisher. 👨⚖️ Follow Jefferson on Instagram and subscribe to his YouTube channel. 📙 Preorder The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More on Amazon. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at Bon Charge. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi. 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne. 🏋️ Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Jefferson Fisher and what expertise does he bring to conversations?
I've never considered that, dude. That's a fascinating take, Jefferson. I'm going to have to stew on that one. What in the world is going on? This is John, the Dr. John Deloney Show. So grateful that you are with us. And dude, you are in for it today. You're in for it today. Today is a special, special day for me. I sit down with my friend.
We're running it back with the great and powerful and almost all-knowing Jefferson Fisher. millions and millions and millions of people follow him on the internets. He is a licensed attorney in the Houston area in South Texas, and he's got a thriving practice.
And a few years ago, he got in his car and started making helpful little notes for people to use on how to communicate well, and it exploded. And we had him in 2023. It was the top episode of the year. And he has a brand new book coming out called The Next Conversation. It's an outstanding, outstanding book, How to Argue Less and Talk More.
One of the most common questions I get on this show is, how do we communicate better with our spouses, with our kids, with our romantic partners, with our bosses, with our friends, with our neighbors? Man, in this conversation, we get into some details on how to have hard conversations.
We also do a lightning round where we take your questions that y'all sent in via social media and we answer those. It's an amazing conversation. I walked away, I learned a lot and I can't wait for you to check it out. So buckle up, pull out a pen and a paper and enjoy my conversation with my great friend, Jefferson Fisher. I want to talk about the four most popular questions we get on the show.
Oh, okay. And there's like five years of me rattling off answers. And I'm going to hand it over to you because I don't think I'm doing a great job because I keep getting the same questions over and over. Giving me five seconds.
Got it. All right.
So these are four common calls I get and their challenges here. All right. So I'm going to read you how it comes into our team. All right. All right. So people email in or they call and leave a long message.
Yeah.
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Chapter 2: How can you start a difficult conversation without triggering defensiveness?
Because if I don't, we're going to cut in, try to fix it, try to solve it, try and like, oh no, this is what you mean. and this spouse says, no, no, no, no, that's not my point. Hear me out. Wait, wait, wait. And we get impatient. Like, can you just get to your point?
Instead, it needs to be, and I'm telling you this because I'm feeling unheard here, or I want to walk away from this conversation feeling more understood. Like, you just need to give them a heads up of where that conversation is going. Because too often, we don't know what we're talking about until we're already there.
Yes. And then we end up saying stuff that you can't get back.
Exactly. Yeah, you don't know what to say until you're already talking. And that's when you go to, no, no, give me a second. I'm still figuring it out. You know, no, no, that's not my point. So anytime you're trying to land the plane, it's like you're just trying to find the runway when that happens. It typically is going to make the conversation go south.
And then three is you need to try and get their buy-in into it. So it would be, can we talk about something that has been weighing on my heart here for a while? And I'm not asking you to solve anything. I just need you to hear me out. Can we do that? Is that sound okay? Is now a good time?
And then when you get their buy-in in it, now you're in the conversation because people don't like to break their word. And if your husband says, I don't care, you've got a bigger issue. Yeah, then you have a way bigger issue. You've got to solve this thing. A way bigger issue than the conversation itself. That's not a communication issue. That's not a communication issue.
That's a relationship issue.
I've been wrestling with this when it comes to marriage and intimacy. Let me get your opinion on it because it's adjacent to this. I feel like I can weaponize the word need versus want. Right. So like one of my challenges with like the five love languages is when I identify a way that it feels good that somebody shows me they love me, then I tell you, you need to do it like this. Right.
Versus what I think is a more vulnerable approach is I want you to do it like this. Yeah.
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Chapter 3: What are common challenges people face in marriage communication?
I understand you disagree with me.
Do you wait for an invitation there to expound? Yes. Because I would feel tempted to say, I see things differently, and then boom, immediately give the counter. But I feel like I'm playing... It's just a sophisticated way of trying to fill that hole back up. You got it.
That's all it is. So it just needs to be, I see things differently. Or you can disagree with me. I mean, that right there... And then just let it hang. Just let it hang. You just stop... Because that's much more powerful than, that's not what happened. Don't you remember? And you're trying to prove it. All you're doing is just giving them more strength to make a knot with.
Instead, if you just say, you're free to disagree with me. Period. Pause. Nothing. What are they going to do? They have to go find another hole to dig. And then they're just going to get tired.
Third one. How do I get my husband... And we can edit this out if you don't want to go this way.
I just get all these kind of calls.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do I get my husband to try new things in the bedroom, to switch things up, to spice things up? Usually it's the opposite problem. It's the man saying, we never do X, Y, or Z. I want my wife to be open to new things. But for us, it's the opposite. I'm not sure what to do. I feel like we're at a stalemate. He seems very closed off and isn't just really interested in me anymore.
And so the bigger question here is, I think it's two questions. One, how do you approach a topic with your partner that's highly sensitive, that you know you're pushing on a button? You've gained 40 pounds. You're not coming home anymore, and you and I both know what that means. I want to try some things romantically.
And then I guess the second question is, I guess reverse, how do I bring up a topic that I know like tears are right here or that heartbreak is right here, but I got to put on the table?
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Chapter 4: How should you respond to gaslighting in a relationship?
like i'm i am i need i need i need that feeling i need that vacuum from you give me all the feelings where i feel comfortable yeah yes let me feel good and safe and secure you're not going to get that not in the way you asked that question dude that's profound that means i would almost recommend somebody hold off on what i would say like the buck stops here conversation yeah until like you you write about eloquently until you know exactly what you're asking
Yeah, how you want to feel after it.
Yeah.
Because it can be, even when you get the answer, it can feel very hollow.
Yeah.
Because you, they're not going to give you what you were looking for. It was the feeling you were chasing. Okay.
I'm going to have to stew on that one because I think that's, I think that's a huge chunk of the marriage conflicts I enter into sitting with people is I wanted to feel a certain way. And it's like, what? Yeah.
Yeah.
Dang.
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Chapter 5: How do you approach sensitive topics with your partner effectively?
Go to bondcharge.com slash DELONI and use coupon code DELONI to save 15%. That's B-O-N-C-H-A-R-G-E, bondcharge.com slash Deloney, and use coupon code Deloney to save 15%. Go check them out. So talk to me about this book, dude. It's awesome. Thanks, man. It's fantastic. Thanks, dude. I was hoping it was going to be terrible, and it's not. It's really good, man. It's frustratingly good.
That's funny.
Tell me about it.
How did it come about? It came about, I never thought, John, I never thought I'd ever write a book. Of course. Ever. I just never. It was never on my bingo card. And when I was posting my content, my stuff on Instagram, we just have these comments, you need to write a book, please write a book. I go, well, I guess I need to write a book. So I Googled, how do you write a book?
And so I've been through that whole process. And the team that's publishing it said, I think you really have something to say. And I said, well, okay, I'll... We'll figure it out. So what this book does is it distills really my framework for how I communicate. And my prayer is that when they read this, they really don't need me anymore. Like there's the framework.
The framework is that when you speak, when you need to say what you need to say, you're going to say it with control. You're going to say it with confidence. You're going to say it to connect. And those three really are your foundation for almost any conversation. You can start making your own Jefferson Fisher communication videos
And the whole premise is that you can change everything in your life by changing the next conversation. I know that it doesn't matter what I said in the last one. I can change everything with simply what I say next. Say next. Yeah.
So control, connect, and confidence. Yeah. You launch into this thing, and I don't want to give away too much. You launch into this book with, when I turned the page, I started laughing. I was like, well, there's 95% of my life. And it is, don't try to win the argument. Don't try to win connection. Talk to me about that. That's my whole life. That's funny. With my dog, I'm trying to win.
You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Chapter 6: Why is it important to clarify the feelings you want from a conversation?
It does, but it will reverberate.
Forever. Right? Yeah. And so whenever you, when somebody walks himself out on a plank, and you just let them hang there. I mean, that's where you really have your sense of your power move of using silence because they know that they walked off on that ledge. So when you say unplug, it's really the concept of Knowing the power of the pause. Knowing that I don't have to say anything.
Yeah, you can take your ball and go home, but it's more of the basis of I just don't have to move because I'm confident in what I know and what I have to say. Same thing we were talking about gaslighters. That idea of when you're confident, I see things differently. You can disagree with me. That's fine. It's okay to disagree. I mean, now you're cool. Now you're cool hand Luke.
Otherwise, when you're having to go, no, no, no, no, that's not true. And you're bouncing every which way. You're getting heightened. You're yelling. Now you're saying, I'm grasping for control. One with the pause says, no, I'm in control. Much different feeling, much different vibe.
So I guess the next evolution of that question is talk to me about defensiveness.
Yeah.
And I guess what that communicates.
Right. Funny thing about defensiveness is it becomes a cycle. So you take something somebody says a certain way and you don't like it. So you get defensive. You say something defensive. Yeah. Well, in turn, the other person gets defensive and now you're convinced you're under attack.
And so it becomes this loop, what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy, that you say, I thought you were mad at me kind of thing. You convince yourself that you were mad at somebody. When you get defensive, it's like locking the door in your room and then being mad at somebody that they can't come in. They should understand me.
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Chapter 7: When is cutting off family or friends a reasonable choice?
It's been good to see you.
Exactly. Hey, we're going to stay one night. It's Thanksgiving. We're going to stay one night.
Yeah.
And we'll have fun. We'll talk politics and talk how Pfizer, we'll do that. And then you'll have a great one. You know what I mean? And we laugh all the way home. Or, yeah, I'm just going to outsource my... To everybody. It's hard. Yeah, it is. But that's a challenge. Yeah, yeah. So I guess thank you for believing in people. Yeah, absolutely.
And I hope people read this and they exhale and say, okay, when I can't see belief in myself, I got a toolkit now that my dad didn't have, that my granddad didn't have, that my mom didn't have, but there's a guy who believes in me.
I was able only to get it because there are people who believe in me. That's right. That's right. Yeah.
That's how it goes. All right. When we come back, we will do some rapid fire straight from social. Nice. Awesome. All right. It's sleep awareness month. So now is a good time to shout out my friends at Helix and remind you that sleep is foundational to every single part of your overall well-being. And all of us know the critical importance of a good night's sleep.
And we all know how great it is to have a safe,
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Chapter 8: What is the core message of Jefferson Fisher's book 'The Next Conversation'?
if you just don't want to be somebody in the courtroom you don't have to be there's tons of training actual attorneys that never see the light a day of a courtroom and do wonderful things in the world you can have a good life and not get on stage yeah yeah yeah for sure you can uh i mean i know lots of attorneys that even go into a hearing would terrify them so it just takes all the time they got they got it go with what's natural how do you recover
when you say that thing and the conversation goes bad?
Oh, how do you recover? Immediately say, I should not have said that. Okay, put it out there. Immediately take ownership of it. Okay. If you can say, I shouldn't have said that, or immediately, that was unfair, or that was unhelpful, you need to say what they're thinking. You have to go ahead and say what they're already accusing you of. That wasn't nice. That was unfair. That wasn't helpful.
Yeah.
Or that hurt.
Yeah. Almost even what they're feeling. Yeah. Okay. You have to get that out front, apologize, depending on what you said, and get back on it. But the longer you delay, like if you withhold that apology, there's lots of people where you know all they have to do is apologize and they just won't. They'll hold it. It only makes things worse.
How do you politely disagree with someone who isn't mature and who has narcissistic tendencies?
Well, let's just put it as how do you disagree with really anybody? I mean, you can disagree with a narcissist versus it's the same thing. One is like we talked about, I see things differently. Another is I lean differently or I lean the opposite. I tend to lean the opposite or I take another approach. I love to have I take another approach.
I was going to say that one feels right.
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Chapter 9: How do confidence and control influence successful communication?
Law school teaches you how to read the law, not how to read people. I had to learn that part myself.
Are you okay?
I see that differently. I think this is the part where you tell America and the world
that i taught you most of this stuff everything i know came from i appreciate that dr john deloney i gosh i just needed that i needed that i i was the feeling got stuck on page four yeah and uh you couldn't get past that i couldn't every page i would read i would just flip back i'd read 10 pages flip back and be like i think i taught him everything in this book for anybody listening that's that's how we first met
So, for anybody listening, I don't know if I said this the last time you were on the show, you were one of those students that came in and all of our colleagues were like, hey, we got to be real nice to this guy because we're probably going to be working for him someday. Like, pretty sure. Either you or your wife. Like, we're going to be working for them, so we got to be super cool.
Dude, thank you for coming to hang out. Thanks, man.
Thanks for having me.
Nothing in the world makes me happier than this. your success here. It was awesome. And for the people that you help. And on behalf of like, forget the, our, we've known each other for a long time and forget friendship and all that. I was just the dad of two little kids. You gave me a lot of language in this book that I can impart to them so that they will always feel like dad thinks I can.
And so thank you for believing in me by writing this book. Thank you for believing in millions of people who will read this book. And thank you for changing the cultural conversation about you can't to, nah, I think you can. It's a blessing, brother. That means the world to me, man. Thanks, dude. Appreciate you. Later, dude. All right, here's the truth.
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