The pop superstar reflects on her struggles with mental health, the pressures of the music industry and why she’s returned to the sound that made her famous.Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: Why did Lady Gaga return to her pop roots with 'Mayhem'?
But as she explained it, the answer, in a way, is all of the above. She and I talked about that new album, as well as how her relationship with her fiancé helped shape its music. And we talked, too, about the loneliness of fame and how it's taken her 20 years to learn how to be a boss. Here's my conversation with Lady Gaga.
Hi.
Hi, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
Good. It's nice to meet you. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Yes, it's nice to meet you too. I'm very happy to be doing this. I'm just making sure all my devices are off. Okay, everything's off.
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Chapter 2: How did Lady Gaga's early career influence her music style?
So in an announcement that I saw for Mayhem, it must have been on social media somewhere, you referred to your fear of going back to the pop music that your earliest fans love. Why is that something you were scared of?
I lived in New York and grew up here my whole life. And I made my artistic way living on the Lower East Side, starting around 17 years old, and really kind of worked the New York music scene as much as I could. Ultimately, that landed me into making The Fame, which was my first studio album. And that music came out of... the culture of people that I was sort of living with.
At the time, downtown, I was surrounded by musicians, photographers, artists, club promoters, people that lived and breathed art for a living. It was a community of support. And I think one of the reasons I was afraid is I was so far away now from that community and not having my community was, you know, was difficult. And I also think
I was afraid to return to something that my fans fell in love with early because it felt very far away and because it also felt like maybe I would be just like recycling something that I'd done before. But ultimately, I decided I really wanted to do it and that this sonic style and sonic aesthetic really did belong to me and it was something that I created.
And that was part of the joy of making the album.
How do you characterize that sound for people?
I think that my sound is like an amalgamation of all the music that helped me fall in love with music. It's got classic rock in it. It has disco in it. It has electronic music in it, 80s synth. It's sort of like all of these memories of music.
Something that we did on the album is like we would take the bass, play it live, and then we would actually run it through the analog synths to see how it would sound after guitar parts that would be like indicative of the way Prince would play it or the way David Bowie would play it.
I would say it's sort of like picking and choosing my favorite fragments of songs that I love throughout my childhood and so many different kinds of artists with so many different genres. And to me, that is my music. It's everything I love about music, but it's all in one place. And I didn't always do that. I sometimes in my records decided, okay, I'm going to make my version of a country record.
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Chapter 3: What challenges has Lady Gaga faced in the music industry?
I mean... I think the, what's interesting is I always feel nervous to talk about this because I'm like, I always feel like I want to say that I'm extremely grateful for the career that I've had and all the blessings that have come into my life. And I also can say with a lot of honesty and truth that
Being in the music industry since I was a teenager, like some of it is what you can, like how much you can stand. It's like how much you are willing to give away of yourself. You know, there were like years and years at a time when... the normal routine of daily life just goes away. Things like eating at the dinner table with your family just never happens anymore.
And being in a room by yourself never happens anymore. Being sort of carted around, told where to go. I'm sure that must sound like peculiar to people because they see you on top of the world and they think you're the boss. But as a woman in music, I would say it took me 20 years to become the boss. And I am now.
And that's thanks to having wonderful people around me and including my partner, Michael. He really helped me become the boss. But no, I was not always the boss, but I was the boss of my music. I was the boss of my art. And that was kind of the only thing, you know, because if you strike at the art, then no one gets what they want from you. But yeah, it's interesting.
I like wrestle with this, how to talk about it, because yeah, I just... I want to acknowledge all the blessings in my life while also, you know, speaking up for women in this industry that, you know, women when we're working in the music business when we're young, you know that there's like no laws around like who can be a producer and like, Like they're not vetted by anyone.
So like when you're 17 years old and you are invited into a studio, like you have like no protection at all. Like you don't know where you're going. You may not even have an adult in the room with you other than the person that you're working with. It's just, it's not the safest industry anymore.
I'm curious what you made of Chapel Roan's speech at the Grammys where she talked about sort of the ways in which the record labels are not supporting the artists with, you know, healthcare or living wage.
I think she's a wonderful artist. I think Chapel Roan is like speaking the truth and she is courageous to do so. And I think we should... For me, I just want to be supportive of her and...
I look at what she's been doing and saying and think like, man, I should have stood up for myself more when I was younger because I hope that will bring more space for her and more boundaries for her in her career to have the career that she wants. I think a woman speaking their mind is a powerful thing and I was really happy that she did that.
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Chapter 4: How does Lady Gaga's relationship influence her music?
because like you can't like feel the wind at your back and I just wasn't feeling well so it was authentic to the time for sure I wrote all those songs sang all those songs but I think that in terms of like being connected to my pure artistic source I think that there were times when I was feeling healthier that I would probably say those felt more authentic to me
There are a lot of ways in which I think of your music as, in a way, sort of a comment on authenticity. Have your ideas about what it means to be authentic changed over time?
I think I definitely was fascinated with artifice when I first started my musical career. And I thought the use of artifice can be incredibly authentic. It's just the way that you do it. I think my understanding of authenticity is that what's changed for me is it has to be on my own terms.
It has to be something that I decide because I think for myself over the years, especially because I started out a career in commenting on artifice. And then I sort of traveled into what's, you know, what some of my fans would even call like norm core with, uh, Joanne and, uh, A Star is Born, I think there were some people that thought that that wasn't authentic.
So I think what I realized is I have to understand. For me, I have to know my authenticity for myself. And yeah, authenticity to me is a committee of one.
You know, if you look at the history of pop music, there's not a ton of... People who don't end up becoming like, as they get older, don't end up becoming, you know, legacy acts or chasing trends or something like that. Are there people you look to and say like, oh, they forged a trail that looks comfortable for me to go down?
I mean, I think Tony Bennett forged the trail that means the most to me. Yeah. Tony always used to tell me, he used to say, just stick with quality, kid. And that made me feel so happy and safe that if I leaned into my artistry, I didn't have to be afraid anymore.
and um so that's like i mean that's a lot of what this album is for me is i just leaned into my musicianship hard like really hard and i told myself you know whatever happens over the next 20 years 30 years of your career you're always going to be a musician and you're always going to be an artist and you can always work at it you can always do more of it um
But I think I've definitely arrived at a place where achieving world domination into my 90s is not exactly what makes me tick. And this idea of winning is, I don't know if that's synonymous necessarily always with great music.
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Chapter 5: How does Lady Gaga view authenticity in her music?
You made reference a couple times to your fibromyalgia. Yes. Is that something that's under control for you right now? What is your relationship with the illness?
Yeah, I mean, I would say that for the most part, I'm a lot better, but... I still have pain flares. I have one today.
I'm sorry.
It's okay. You know, I'm like fine. I just, you know, it just still happens once in a while. And it's like, I'm really grateful that it's not all the time. So, yeah, I'm okay.
You know, the music video for Abracadabra looks to me like a very physically intense music video. Is that something you would have been able to do when the fibromyalgia was less under control?
Well, that was a very physically challenging video to do. I loved every moment of learning the choreography. Paris Coble's an amazing choreographer. I'm definitely in a place where like, I'm in the place where like, even today, if I went to the dance studio, I'd be fine. But yeah, there were years ago where that would have been really, really hard.
So yeah, I've just, I've just gotten a lot healthier. And but I mean, so I mean, not to be like too graphic, but like years ago I used to get a lot more like pinched nerves all over my body. So it would have been a lot harder to do a video like that. I stopped dancing a lot for a while, I think, to make things more manageable for myself.
But I'm, you know, kind of back, feeling good, feeling good now.
There's a great story. Maybe it's apocryphal that when you were very young, you were playing at some bar in Manhattan and there were some like loud frat boys there and they weren't paying attention. Do you know where the story is going?
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Chapter 6: What is Lady Gaga's perspective on her role in the larger culture?
No.
Not anymore. No. But I know, I know, I know why you're asking me that.
Because like the I am authentic now is a thing that people do.
I'm sure that that does happen. I think it has less to do... Well, okay, let's put it this way. I was authentic before. That was authentically me. I just was authentically splitting off into different personalities all the time. I would say that now...
like who I would be at dinner with you is who I would be in this interview so I guess authenticity is subjective like to say that performance isn't authentic is not really true I just feel like I'm more easily can hold it all and feel
I feel confident in the idea that my artistry as a musician is like the most valuable thing about me after, of course, what I have to offer my family and my loved ones. Meaning I would not put artifice and fame as high on the list to go back to your question.
And you brought up a period five or so years ago when it seems like your mental health was not in a great place. Are you able to tell me more about what was going on with you then?
Yeah, I mean, well, I had psychosis. So I was not deeply in touch with reality for a while. And it like took me out of life in a big way. And after like a lot of years of hard work, I like got myself back. And... It was a really hard time. And it was actually really, really special when I met my partner because when I met Michael, I was like in a much better place when I met him.
But I remember him saying to me like pretty early on, you know, I know you could be a lot happier than you are. And I just, it was really hard for me to hear him say that because I didn't want him to think that of me. You know, I wanted him to think I was like this happy, just totally together person and I wasn't really yet. So I guess...
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