David Marchese
Appearances
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Oh, I 100% agree with everything you just said. No, but it's true.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Well, not quite true. I mean, talking at the March for Life.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Which I should explain is a pro-life, I'll also call it anti-abortion rally that happens every year in Washington.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Tease that out for me.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
So you've been playing Jesus on The Chosen for five seasons now. What sort of conversations did you and Dallas have about the kind of Jesus that you wanted to show?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Why is abortion the issue where you chose to make your voice public and not other things that are central to Jesus' teachings, like in treatment of the poor, for example?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
I realize you just made a comment about trying to find relaxation as a peace of mind. But I have another question about the March for Life.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
There's one moment in the speech you gave there where you sort of pivot and say, you know, you know about the world of entertainment. I'm paraphrasing all of this. So if I'm misremembering, just correct me. I'll help you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Because your Jesus, it's a very different portrayal than Jim Caviezel's Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, or Willem Dafoe's in The Last Temptation of Christ, or you know what else is a good one but also very different than yours is... Max von Sydow.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Yes, and you're sort of diagnosing the cultural landscape, and you say, you know, there's just sort of an increase in, you know, occult imagery, depictions of witchcraft. And you say some of this is even subliminal, and you know it when you see it. And I don't know exactly what you mean. Can you give me examples of the kind of stuff you're talking about?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You know, it's funny because I said, you know, I don't see it. And of course, you know, it's like, I enjoy the music of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest, you know what I mean?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
But to me, you know, that kind of imagery, it feels benign to me. Like... it's on the same level as like science fiction movies or horror films. You know, it's like, this is, this is entertainment.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You know, the greatest story ever told. Very austere. But all of those Jesuses or Jizai, I don't know what they are, would... There's a solemnity to them. And your Jesus is a much more, in some ways, contemporary feeling Jesus.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
But do you think the kind of iconography you're talking about is the natural outcome of a corroded culture, or do you think it's the intentional result of darker forces?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
if you think about the work you're doing in terms of mission, how much of that mission feels to you evangelical in nature? Like, if somebody watches the show and is merely entertained and nothing more, do you feel that something has been left on the table?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You know, actors who have been on successful TV shows, I think it's not uncommon for them to have been typecast because of the familiarity that people had with the characters that they played. Sure. And that's not even taking into account playing Jesus. Do you have any concern about the industry typecasting you in that role? Yeah. Are you getting any clues out there in the world about that or—
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
After the break, I call Jonathan Rumi back, and he tells me why he thinks that shows should make Hollywood less wary of religion.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Thank you for taking the time to do this again.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
So, let me just ask a seasonally appropriate question. Okay. At this point in American culture, Christmas is sort of like a secular holiday. Yeah. Do you have feelings about how secular Christmas has become?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
And you told this interesting anecdote about a discussion with a crew member about how discussing faith at work was sort of a no-go. What might account for why faith is tricky for Hollywood?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You talked about the idea of surrendering to God. And I think that for non-believers...
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
the idea of surrender and what that actually means in practice, I think, you know, it can just sound like a well-meaning cliche, I think, you know, in the way that, you know, when you hear an athlete talk about, oh, you know, we're just taking it one game at a time and giving it 110%, you know, it's not untrue, but it's not really helping you to understand what's going on.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
And I wonder if you can try to explain a little bit more concretely about what it actually looked like for you to surrender and sort of let go? Because you're still a person walking around with ideas and you're trying to accomplish things and you have judgments about things. So what does it mean in practice to let go?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Did you have any apprehension about showing a version of Jesus that isn't one that's typically shown?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
But Jonathan Rumi is dealing with an unusually charged version of this dynamic in his role as Jesus Christ. And yes, this is our version of Christmas season programming. Since 2017, Rumi has been the star of the global hit series The Chosen. The series takes a prestige TV approach to the story of Jesus, full of sharp dialogue, interpersonal drama, unexpected humor, and high production values.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You're so firmly on your path now, but are there ways in which your faith is still being tested?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
But give me the nitty gritty.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Jonathan, thank you and happy holidays.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
That's Jonathan Rumi. Season 5 of The Chosen comes out next year. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orr. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Afim Shapiro, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Matty Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
And you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com. Next week, we're off for the holidays, but we'll share a conversation with Jeff Bezos from The New York Times Dealbook Summit. And we'll be back with more interviews in the new year. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Just in my head, I was thinking of the sort of cliche of an actor saying, oh, what's my motivation? In your case, the answer was, you've got to bring about the salvation of the world. Play it like that. Saving souls. I've got to save more souls. And so the decision was made that you were going to do The Chosen.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Before that, you know, maybe scuffling is too strong of a word, but you were just sort of a jobbing actor.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Struggle bussing. Yeah. How does it happen that a struggle-bussing actor makes it big playing Jesus?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
I know that you're a practicing Catholic. What does your faith allow you to give to the role that a non-believer or a non-Catholic might not be able to give?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. It's common, maybe even natural, for audiences to blur the lines between actors and their famous roles, to assume that a beloved on-screen doctor might know something about medicine or that an action hero is a tough guy off-screen too.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You know, it's interesting because you're saying that who you are allows you to play the role of Jesus with a particular authenticity. Do you feel that someone who is a non-believer could credibly and authentically play that part?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
That slickly appealing modern style, centered on Rumi's warm and relatable portrayal, has helped the show to become a massive success. It's been watched by more than 250 million people and will return for its fifth season under creator Dallas Jenkins next year. That success has also helped turn Rumi, a devout Catholic, into a kind of public faith leader.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Yeah. Yeah. He came to be a sword.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Yes. Yeah. When I watch videos of you giving talks for crowds, you come out and very often it seems a wave of applause, like really an overwhelming response. And the idea that you're getting that sort of attention from combined with the fact that you're getting it for playing Jesus, strikes me as a potentially psychologically and spiritually combustible situation. Does it feel that way to you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
You're saying essentially that you become a human icon for people. The thing that I don't quite understand is how you separate the idea that, as you said, you're nothing here.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
But then also feeling like you've been put here for a reason. You're saying there is something special about you. Those seem to me like somewhat contradictory ideas. How do you reconcile them? And then also, there was never some small part of you that's like, oh, I am special. None of that little sort of ego gratification temptation ever creeps into your head?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
At public events for The Chosen, he's swamped by fans looking to, as it were, touch the hem of his garment. He gets asked to speak at faith-based events, and in the online world, he has a partnership with the prayer app Halo, where listeners can hear him read scripture and lead meditative reflections.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
So, you know, you go to these events and like you described, thousands of people are cheering or coming up to you. And you also are asked to come and speak at things like the National Eucharistic Congress or you gave a commencement address at the Catholic University of America. You spoke at the March for Life in Washington last year. These sort of demands on your life. time and on your being.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Do you feel like you're being asked to give more than you have to give?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
Was there a particularly difficult encounter that comes to mind?
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
As Rumi is well aware, his is a complicated and just plain unlikely situation for an actor to be in. But it's also, he believes, part of a greater plan. And for me, as someone who is sincerely curious about faith, and even if I'm being honest, a little envious of those who have it, his belief is something I wanted to understand. Here's my conversation with Jonathan Rumi.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
There's a way in which experiences like that call to mind for me a kind of, you could almost call it like a category error about the position that you find yourself in where you're an actor. And because you play this role, you are put into positions that probably an actor shouldn't be in. put into. You know, and it seems like increasingly you are becoming a figure of authority.
The Daily
'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
When you're asked by people to come talk to groups of Catholics, what do you think they want from you in that setting? And is there a part of you that thinks, this is messed up, I'm an actor. Why ask me? Ask a theologian. Ask a priest.