Immigration arrests are taking place at universities across the country. The story of three Columbia students helps explain what’s happening, and why.Hamed Aleaziz, who covers immigration policy, lays out what their cases reveal about the latest immigration crackdown — and about this administration’s views on free speech.Guest: Hamed Aleaziz, who covers the Department of Homeland Security and immigration policy in the United States for The New York Times.Background reading: A Columbia student hunted by ICE has sued to prevent deportation.How a Columbia student fled to Canada after ICE came looking for her.What we know about the detentions of student protesters.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Eduardo Munoz/Reuters Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: Why are immigration arrests happening at universities?
From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams. This is The Daily. Today, the story of three Columbia students targeted for deportation by the Trump administration and why immigration arrests are happening at universities across the country. My colleague Hamed Aliaziz on what these cases reveal about the latest immigration crackdown and this administration's views on free speech.
It's Monday, March 31st. Hamed, it feels like you can't go more than a few days without hearing about another college campus or another college student that has been targeted by immigration officials. And one thing that seems to have been really making the rounds the last week is this video of a student at Tufts getting detained on the street by immigration agents.
And it's kind of a shocking video. And her case feels like this larger pattern that we've been seeing recently with the targeting of students. And I want to talk to you about what is happening here and what your understanding is of this moment that we are in.
Chapter 2: What is the Trump administration's stance on international students?
Yeah, definitely. We saw at the beginning of the Trump administration a real focus on cracking down and arresting undocumented immigrants in the country, particularly those with criminal histories. And at the same time, making a note that if you're undocumented in this country, we're going to come find you, we're going to come get you, and we're going to remove you from America.
But what's happening now is targeting of people who were legally in the country. They were here with student visas, in some cases with green cards. The Trump administration is looking to target individuals that they believe are spreading messages that they disagree with and they believe that are counter to the foreign policy interests of the United States.
And this all actually starts with a talk by President Trump during his campaign. During that time, he was watching these protests at Columbia.
When I'm president, we will not allow our colleges to be taken over by violent radicals.
who said that if there were any international students involved, their visas should be revoked and they should be removed from the United States.
If you come here from another country and try to bring jihadism or anti-Americanism or anti-Semitism to our campuses, we will immediately deport you. You'll be out of that school.
And when he comes into office, quickly in those first few days where there's a dizzying number of executive orders, he deputizes the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security to create a task force combating anti-Semitism and targeting college campuses as places of focus. And we weren't clear how it was all going to play out.
And in recent weeks, we've seen the Trump administration move start to use those ideas to target students on college campuses. And I've been covering three of those cases involving students at Columbia that, taken together, I think paint a clearer picture of what the Trump administration is up to.
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Chapter 3: Who is Mahmoud Khalil and why was he arrested?
I have to assume that one of those cases is one of the first cases that we saw come out of all of this, the case of Mahmoud Khalil, the former Columbia student who was arrested on campus housing in early March.
Definitely, his case was a massive news story when it first happened in early March. And people were trying to figure out why he was picked up. We learned from sources that actually Secretary of State Rubio had issued a memo designating two people as deportable because of their protest activity. And one of those people was Mahmoud Khalil. a very visible protester on Columbia's campus.
You're going to be under arrest. So turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around.
He was arrested on March 8th at his Columbia University apartment complex.
Okay, okay, he's not resisting. He's giving me his phone, okay?
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Chapter 4: Can green card holders be detained by ICE?
His wife actually videotaped the arrest. And in the video, you can see the plainclothes officers telling Mr. Khalil that he's going to be arrested, that they're going to be taking him away.
At the same time, Mr. Khalil is telling his wife... Just call his lawyer.
He was picked up and sent to Louisiana, where he was detained in an ICE detention facility. And that's really striking because Khalil is not here on a visa. He actually has permanent residency and a green card.
Can they do that? I mean, can they detain a green card holder? I remember when we first learned about this case, a lot of people, myself included, thought the answer was no.
Green card holders can be detained. After you receive your green card, you have to wait a certain number of years to receive your U.S. citizenship. But during that time, you need to remain in good standing in the United States. And one of the things that oftentimes green card holders will be picked up by ICE for is committing certain crimes, you know, more serious crimes.
In this case, obviously, there is no crime that's been pointed to by the U.S. government. Instead, it's this provision cited by Secretary of State Rubio.
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Chapter 5: What legal grounds are used to detain international students?
And what is the legal ground that Rubio is citing?
They arrested him under this... a provision in the immigration law that allows a Secretary of State to deem someone deportable if their continued presence in the United States undermines U.S. foreign policy. And in the case of Mr. Khalil, they say that his involvement in protests at Columbia University was part of this anti-Semitic activity, and this undermines U.S.
foreign policy interests of combating anti-Semitism across the world.
What they're referring to in some of these accusations seems to be a speech issue. I mean, I know they're talking about things that sound like terrorism, but they're really criticizing, it seems, his protest activity. And one thing I still don't quite understand about his story is this question of freedom of speech.
Like, even though he's not a citizen, is he still entitled to the protections of a citizen because he's in this country? Yeah.
It's complicated. The Supreme Court has said that non-citizens do have the right to freedom of speech under the First Amendment, but the government has an immense amount of power to remove immigrants from the United States. And ultimately, anything outside of being a U.S. citizen is a privilege that can be revoked by the federal government.
And in this case, the Trump administration is trying to say that actions that would otherwise be protected in the First Amendment, like protest activity on a college campus, could merit deportation.
So basically, no, you don't ultimately have freedom of speech.
Yeah, it's clear that they're targeting people for this type of speech, including Mr. Khalil, using every resource possible to pick him up and arrest him. Recently, they added allegations in his immigration case to try to deport him, saying that he had not disclosed past work.
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Chapter 6: How did Ranjani Srinivasan's visa status change?
Tell me about that case.
Her name is Ranjani Srinivasan, and she's a PhD student here on a student visa from India. And my colleague, Luis Ferre, gets on the phone with her and starts talking to her about her story and what she experienced. You know, she had received an email in early March from the State Department saying that her visa was revoked. And she's trying to figure out
what's going on with her status in the United States. It's important to note that for international students here, that's a very serious issue. And so there's a lot of stress involved with that. Around that time, ICE comes to her door. Does Ranjani live here? Her roommate actually is at the door and starts a recording.
I do not consent to answering any questions, but have a good day.
Hey, Brunjani, if this is you, listen. We were here yesterday. We're here today. We're going to be here tonight, tomorrow. You're probably scared. If you are, I get it.
And they're seeking to pick her up.
The reality is your visa was revoked, okay? You are now amenable to removal proceedings, okay?
Does she know why ICE agents are at her door? Does she know why, like, they're trying to get her?
She doesn't, but eventually she realizes that she's likely being targeted because she was swept up during the increase in protests on Columbia's campus. She had been arrested amongst another group of protesters in the area, but she says she was arrested during a time when she was trying to get home. She was working her way back to her house, and she was picked up by police at the time.
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Chapter 7: What is the concept of self-deportation?
Definitely. Self-deportation is a major goal of the Trump administration. There is no feasible way for them to deport millions of people without major numbers of immigrants self-deporting, leaving the country, boosting to those numbers that President Trump has said he will hit.
This is something that is constantly talked about with the Trump administration, which is leave before we come and find you. And in this case, it seemed to have worked. She saw what happened to Mr. Khalil and did not want to end up like him, being sent to an ICE detention center.
This case shows us that the government is claiming these broad deportation powers and attempting to use those powers to deport international students here to study in the United States. Then we heard about another case, a third case involving another university student that really surprised people who've been following immigration and immigration enforcement for years.
We'll be right back.
Hamed, you've just explained these two cases that help us understand how the administration is really testing all these new theories about how to get people out of the country. Tell us about that third case you just mentioned.
Definitely. This third case, it's a 21-year-old student, Yoon So Chung, who grew up in America, essentially. She was born in Korea, but she came to the United States at age seven. And she lived her life in America. Her whole community is here. Her family's here. Her parents are here. She went through high school in America where she became a valedictorian.
Essentially, her home is the United States, and that is something that her lawyers really emphasized in their lawsuit against the U.S. government.
This isn't someone who came here specifically to go to school and then plans to head back home, right?
Exactly. I think it's significant for emotional reasons because she has such deep ties to this country. She went to high school in the United States. She has a network in the United States. But I think more importantly... it undercuts the Trump administration's argument with these arrests.
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