Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
The Future of Anti-Trump Republicans (feat. Charlie Dent)
Fri, 16 May 2025
Jessica sits down with former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent—a lifelong conservative who broke with his party to back Biden in 2020 and Kamala Harris in 2024. They talk about what pushed him to cross the aisle, why he believes the GOP needs a reckoning, and what gives him hope for the future of American politics. Follow Jessica Tarlov, @JessicaTarlov. Follow Prof G, @profgalloway. Follow Raging Moderates, @RagingModeratesPod. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Charlie Dent and why did he break with the Republican Party?
These days, he's the executive director of the Aspen Institute's congressional program, where he's focused on fostering real bipartisan dialogue in Congress. He's been vocal about the need for a reckoning within his party and is working to steer the conversation back to responsible governance, trust, and civility. Congressman Dent, welcome to the show.
Jessica, great to be with you. Thank you.
Yeah, no, thank you for joining us. I'm excited to talk to you. It's You're brave soldiers, you never-Trumpers, who actually come over and support the other side. And that's where I want to begin our conversation. So you backed Biden in 2020, Kamala Harris in 2024. What ultimately pushed you to cross the aisle in both elections? Was it Trump? How he redefined the Republican Party?
Can you talk us through your journey?
Chapter 2: What drove Charlie Dent to support Biden in 2020 and Harris in 2024?
Yeah, I mean, for me, look, I feel... You called me a conservative. Some people call me center right or common sense conservative. I mean, moderate, pragmatic, choose your favorite term. But what drove me away was, you know, I always said this wasn't a these these elections with Donald Trump were not about right or left from a policy perspective. I always thought they're about right or wrong.
I often thought that what the MAGA movement represented in the form of Donald Trump was a particular type of protectionism, isolationism, nativism, at times nihilism, and what I would call a dangerous populism. And it really, it's not particularly ideological. It's really about loyalty to a particular individual. It's not about fidelity to any type of principles.
If you were to ask me what kind of person, you know, I kind of view myself as an Edmund Burke type. That if, you know, if we're going to be Republicans, that we should be about incremental change. And we believe in evolutionary systems, not revolutionary systems. We believe in measured statements. We believe in, you know, discipline. And that's kind of where we got stability and order.
I mean, that's where I think a lot of sort of center right folks come from or center right conservatives come from. And I don't think that's where the party is right now. It's taken on a form of, you know, radical positions like on tariffs that are completely antithetical to.
Chapter 3: How does Charlie Dent view the changes in the GOP under Trump?
to free markets and certainly represent a type of revolutionary change that should really appall people who would kind of embrace that center-right or conservative ideology.
You're from Pennsylvania, represented there. You have someone like a Chris Deluzio who... Talks a bit of a protectionist game, not nearly like what Trump is talking about, but you have a Bernie Sanders as well. Fetterman has dabbled in this, too.
How do you feel like the difference between the kind of positions that they're supporting when you say we have to protect American manufacturing and American workers versus how Trump is implementing this? this tariff plan can be better explained to the American people.
Well, Trump's tariff policy is essentially very similar to what the AFL-CIO would be proposing. The AFL-CIO Democrats, Sean Fain at the UAW, is very supportive of many of these tariffs, apparently. And I guess what I find remarkable is that Democrats have not been able to articulate a strong, forceful opposition policy To the Trump tariffs, because many of them agree with the basic policy.
They might not like the way Trump is doing it. But for years, you know, I've been in politics. I've heard plenty of Democrats from Bernie Sanders and others, you know, who've embraced this idea of protectionism in a very naked form. And that's what I guess disturbs me most about where my party is, is that we were not that party.
We were the party that was embracing opening markets for American producers. We had a forward looking aspirational view of the world. that we could actually compete. And many of those who were advocating this type of protectionism had thrown up their hands and said, boy, you know, we're just not good enough anymore.
And, you know, look, I'm all for using tariffs and countervailing duties on a very targeted basis, but in response to problems, you know, illegal dumping or illegal subsidies, certainly people, countries that are using child labor, you
And other forms of what we would consider to be real trade abuses are in the case of China, where they coerce technology transfers, which is a big problem, or steal intellectual property. Okay, that's how you use them, but we don't use these across-the-board tariffs against friend and foe alike. and think that this is somehow going to grow our economy, it'll just have the opposite effect.
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Chapter 4: What is the difference between Trump's tariff policies and traditional Republican views?
It'll be very negative and it'll punish American consumers as well as manufacturers and farmers. And it's pretty self-evident to me, and just look at how the markets have reacted, if we need any further explanation. But you're seeing it all across the country, people are reacting.
Just the other day in the Allentown Morning Call, Mack Trucks said they're laying off 250 to 350 employees, largely over the tariffs. I mean, this is what we're dealing with. It's
So everything you just said is true. He has the lowest approval rating in 70 years. Underwater on every issue. Still, you know, does well on border security, which kudos to you. He's basically shut down the border, which is something that we desperately needed to happen. But it feels like people can disapprove of him and it still doesn't transfer over to turning on him.
And this is not just the MAGA base. CNN did polling that showed if the election were held today, who do you think would do a better job managing this? And he still edged out Kamala Harris. And what do you think that is that doesn't allow people... transfer over to the other side to say, actually, I don't think he could do this job.
First, Democratic approval ratings are in the tank as well. I mean, their numbers are not very good. Many people I saw a poll recently suggesting about 70 percent of voters thought they were out of touch with the American public.
But at the end of the day, what I do think motivates those voters who would prove decisive in a presidential election, these are the voters who are not firmly in the Trump camp or firmly in the Democratic or Kamala Harris camp. These are people who are persuadable. And it's quite clear to me that many of them were motivated by economic issues.
And so to the extent that we are having this debate about where Trump said he was going to lower prices on day one, and here we are going into a trade war. that is having real-world impacts on people's 401ks. They're worried about their jobs. A recession seems probable at this point. And I think economic issues will drive the day.
And of course, what we're hearing, none of this policy is lowering prices. So even though the president is, I think, largely in step with where the American people are on border security, where they clearly want the border controlled. They might not like the way Trump does things.
I think at the end of the day, these economic issues are going to motivate those other, what I'll call swing voters, what's left of them. And, you know, remember too, I also looked at some polling recently too, you know, on this 100 day anniversary, there must've been a dozen polls. And so I'm kind of pulled out. I try not to talk about polls too often, but
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Chapter 5: Why does Trump maintain support despite low approval ratings?
The expectation that the Republican Party can go back to what it once was after Trump, because, I mean, he did tell Kristen Walker that he's not thinking about a third term. Steve Bannon has other ideas about that. We're not here to kind of debate whether he's going to do that or not. But it's a big open question what the party looks like post-Trump.
Yeah, I don't think... with the party, I don't believe the party goes back to where it was. But at the same time, some of those principles I just laid out are enduring principles. They're the ones that have sustained the party since Abraham Lincoln. And so I think that we should focus on those core principles once again. Like I said, we should be talking about peace through strength.
We should be talking about embracing allies. We should be talking about the constitution, the union. You know, economic freedom. We should be talking about those things that I think most Republicans still embrace, even those who support Trump. There are a lot of people who are Trump voters. who aren't real happy with everything he says and does and may disagree with him.
They're voting for Trump because they so much dislike where the Democrats are on many policy issues. So I think that's really where we need leadership in the party to present a counter-narrative quite often. You hear the MAGA narrative, and where I've been critical of some of my former congressional Republican colleagues is they've been too quiet.
You cannot counter that MAGA narrative with silence. Silence is silence. If there's nothing narrative to counter MAGA's argument, well, then MAGA's going to win every single time. But I think because of this trade war, there's a tremendous opening for a lot of Republicans to counter.
And remember, too, Donald Trump's not ever going to be on the ballot again, at least not legally or constitutionally. He's not going to be on the ballot again. And so he's a lame duck president. And Republicans will be up in 2026. And many of them are going to need separation from Donald Trump. And now is the time to start making arguments.
about how they are different than the president, particularly those who are in those marginal and swing districts who hope to survive. They're not going to be able to run simply embracing Donald Trump, whose approval rating is what, around 40 now, low 40s? That's not a way you're going to win an election. So I think there's an opportunity now for Republicans to start speaking up.
Yeah. When you look at what the reconciliation bill will have in it and those huge cuts to Medicaid, and you mentioned Swank District, Republicans who in most cases have hundreds of thousands of more people in their districts on Medicaid than the margins that they won, you think this is going to be an obvious one. But time and again, something that Trump does or Trump allies do is
scares people to the point that they feel like they can't even represent their constituents.
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Chapter 6: What core principles does Charlie Dent believe should define the Republican Party?
As he's berating me, you know, I'm not voting for the bill. And I told him why, because he basically had me back in on a Thursday and I, there were 17 members of Congress around the table in the cabinet room. And he said to me, I was the second one he called on. That's how I was voting. And I said, I'm against the bill. I'm going to vote yes. And then, you know, then he said, well, why?
And I said, well, For the same reasons I told you on Tuesday, you know, it's Thursday and nothing's really changed. And so, but bottom line is after he got done, you know, trying to berate me or trying to bully me, I said, Mr. President, can I ask you a question? He said, yeah. And I said, are you telling me, because he kept saying taxes are done, taxes are done.
You remember at that time they were trying to do tax reform. And I said, are you telling me, Mr. President, that if we don't pass this, this healthcare bill in this particular form, we won't be able to do tax reform because the tax baseline is not going to be low enough. That's exactly right. And when you lose, you lose.
He goes off again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, same stuff, repeating himself. And it kind of got nasty. And then after about a long time of this, you know, we're going back and forth a little bit and finally it ends. And it was, this is all picked up in one of the tell-all books, a team of vipers for about three pages. I didn't know that until the book was written.
Didn't even know anybody was taking notes or recording it.
Someone is always taking notes.
Someone is there. Cliff Sims, who worked for me, wrote the book. He did it. So basically, it all breaks. So he gets done with his tirade. I had asked him my questions. And then we just sat there staring at each other. A real awkward silence that I forgot about, but they recounted in the book. And then he said, yeah, well, Trump realized at that moment that wasn't budging.
So then Trump goes around the whole room, asks everybody how they're voting. Yes, lean yes. That took a while. And then one of the guys, And now a couple of them lied to him, but that's to be expected. And so after it's all over, after 45 minutes of all this going around the room and chit-chatting about other things, he turns back at me and he says, you still a hard no?
I said, yeah, I'm still a no, Mr. President. With that, he goes off again. Now, I was really getting annoyed at this point. I finally, I waited like five or 10 seconds. I said, oh, come on, Mr. President. He said, oh, I'm done talking to you. I don't want to hear it. Tell them anything. turns away like that and looks in the other direction. The meeting breaks up.
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Chapter 7: Can the Republican Party return to its pre-Trump principles?
how they're going to do too many significant changes particularly in the u.s senate the house might pass something but the senate i think is going to be a bit more squeamish they have a lower threshold for pain they feel that you know the house has a higher threshold they'll pass bills that are going to go nowhere uh even though they're very politically damaging which was the case back in 2017 on the repeal replace the bill that the house passed i warned colleagues policy's bad the politics are worse the bill would never be adopted by the senate never in a million years
And, of course, nothing close to the House bill was even considered in the Senate.
Yeah. Yeah. And you are right. I talk to a lot of Congress people and say, oh, we passed all of these bills. Yeah. But that's obviously not going anywhere when you even have Josh Hawley saying that he's not going to sign it.
Yeah. And Rand Paul, I think, has said he's against it.
Oh, Rand Paul. is now my Democratic hero. I mean, listening to him give floor speeches about, you know, the Boston Tea Party and tariffing, I'm all for Rand Paul right now.
He's absolutely right on tariffs. You know, he's going to be against reconciliation, not because of the Medicaid changes, because he's got other reasons, but he's certainly right about the tariffs.
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Chapter 8: What was Charlie Dent’s experience confronting Trump over Medicaid policy?
And he takes the fat, the fat shot drug.
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In 2017, you told The New Yorker that the Republican Party needs a reckoning. I would imagine that you still feel that that's the case going into whatever 2028 will hold next.
There are a lot of conservatives or center left center right people, moderates, whatever you want to self-identify as who feel like the Republican project just needs to be left behind and that there is no point in trying to resuscitate something that for all of the values that you just extolled in the last 15 minutes.
You don't see any of that being represented even by the folks that you would imagine would like a Marco Rubio who has had a full conversion right to Trumpism. What do you say to those types, you know, who are at the bulwark now, for instance, and seem like they're just all in for the Democrats?
Well, I think this is where I kind of maybe differ. I mean, if we want to change the party, we have to we have to still kind of stay within it. I do feel strongly about that. And frankly, you know, the Democrats have tremendous opportunities, but they're very much tied to their organized labor base.
And on an issue like tariffs, they just can't make the argument because many of them agree with the policy, the basic policy. They don't like the way Trump's doing it. And I think the Democrats have that challenge. And also, you know, I think we've also seen, too, where the Democrats have struggled. you know, particularly on the border.
It was clear that the American people, you know, were appalled by, you know, the mayhem at the border during the Biden administration. And they were just too lackadaisical about it for at least the first three years of their administration. It didn't get serious. And it was a very important issue.
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