Madison Marsh on Courage, Confidence, and Compassion

0.129 - 2.151 John R. Miles

Coming up next on Passion Struck.

2.292 - 22.933 Madison Marsh

Think of the people that are Olympians and the work that it took to get into something like that. The people that become the superstars, people that make the breakthroughs in research. None of that came from someone doing something easy. You don't get greatness from taking the easy path. You get it from the challenge.

22.973 - 41.12 Madison Marsh

You get it from the days that you fail and you fall down and you suck at things and you take that and you take your weaknesses and turn it into strengths and you learn from it. You learn from the people that are better than you. And I think that challenge and wanting to meet that challenge is what makes people into success.

41.18 - 49.123 Madison Marsh

That's what gives them that greatness because of that willingness to fail and try and get up and try again until you get it right.

49.488 - 70.921 John R. Miles

Welcome to passion struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.

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If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hey, PassionStruck fam. Welcome to episode 547 of the PassionStruck podcast.

97.034 - 113.127 John R. Miles

I'm your host, John Miles, and as always, I want to begin by thanking you for being here and for your commitment to living more intentionally and passionately. Whether you've been with us from the start or tuning in for the first time, you're part of an incredible community focused on growth, purpose, and igniting passion in every area of life.

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If you're new to the show, we've got over 540 episodes designed to inspire transformation. Not sure where to begin? Head to passionstruck.com slash starter packs or Spotify to check out our episode starter packs, which are curated by themes like leadership, mental health, and personal mastery.

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And if you're looking for even more tools to take these lessons deeper, sign up for my Live Intentionally newsletter at passionstruck.com, where I share weekly exercises, insights, and behind-the-scenes stories to keep you inspired. Now let's take a moment to reflect on last week's conversations, which were nothing short of transformational.

146.954 - 163.517 John R. Miles

First, I sat down with Jessica Zweig, bestselling author of The Light Work. Jessica shared how embracing the concept of light has empowered her personal and spiritual growth. We talked about reframing inner darkness, unlocking infinite potential, and living a more inclusive, love-filled life.

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Next, we welcome George Appling, author of Don't Settle, how to make the most of your one extraordinary life. George shared his insights on resilience, mindset, and intentional action to create a life that aligns with your deepest passions. His message on never settling is one we can all take to heart as we navigate our own paths to purpose. And if you'd prefer to watch these,

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You can also head over to our YouTube channels at John R. Miles and Passion Struck Clips and subscribe to weekly doses of video inspiration. Now let's jump in to an episode that will not only challenge your perspective, but also inspire you to rethink what's possible in your life.

201.104 - 219.778 John R. Miles

Today, we're joined by Madison Marsh, the reigning Miss America, who is redefining what it means to lead, serve and break barriers. At just 23 years old, Madison has made history as the first active duty Air Force officer to hold the Miss America title. but her impact extends far beyond the crown.

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She's a tireless advocate for pancreatic cancer awareness and a passionate voice for breaking stereotypes about women and pageantry and the military. In this engaging and thought-provoking conversation, we cover how she's balancing dual roles.

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In our discussion, Madison discusses how she navigates the unprecedented demands of her military career while embracing the responsibilities of being Miss America. We go into pageantry with purpose. Madison's journey into pageantry as a passion project and her commitment to leaving a legacy that continues to break barriers.

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We discuss how she's reframing Miss America, debunking misconceptions about the competition, and showcasing the intelligence, leadership, and talent that define modern Miss America contestants.

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We go through her dedication to a life of service, Madison's personal connection to military service, her pride in safeguarding freedoms, and her mission to inspire the next generation by showing them what's possible.

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then lastly we go into advocating for change her work as the founder of the whitney marsh foundation where she's dedicated to raising awareness for pancreatic cancer and how she's turning a personal tragedy into a platform for hope and action madison's story is a powerful testament to living with purpose the courage to challenge societal norms and the resilience to turn life's greatest challenges into opportunities for growth

298.843 - 318.758 John R. Miles

Whether you're intrigued by the behind the scenes realities of balancing two high profile careers, inspired to use your platform for advocacy, or simply looking for actionable ways to live more intentionally, this episode is for you. So get ready to go beyond the crown and into the heart of service, impact, and legacy with Madison Marsh, Miss America.

318.918 - 339.264 John R. Miles

Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so honored today to have Madison Marsh, Miss America, on the podcast. Welcome, Madison.

340.004 - 341.185 Madison Marsh

Thank you so much for having me.

342.116 - 365.427 John R. Miles

So for my regular listeners of Passion Struck, they know I went to the Naval Academy and I always like to get the background paths to those who end up going and serving. I understand you grew up in Arkansas and you dreamed of becoming an astronaut, which I love this because one of my classmates, Chris Cassidy, was the chief astronaut. Love Chris.

366.514 - 373.579 John R. Miles

What sparked your fascination with space and how did those early ambitions shape your path to going to the Air Force Academy?

374.24 - 392.973 Madison Marsh

I kind of fell in love with space whenever I got to go to space camp. My family sent there, I believe I was in the eighth grade and just getting to be a part of a group of people that were passionate about the same things that I was, getting to be a part of that teamwork, but also getting into like the fun science of doing all the different things

393.553 - 413.727 Madison Marsh

do mock missions, pretending that we were astronauts. I got to be the botanist and just getting to do fun things like that with people that were just as passionate as I was really sparked that desire for me to go to the Air Force Academy. And after talking to a lot of those astronauts there, I had kind of seen their path and how they became astronauts.

413.947 - 421.492 Madison Marsh

And one of the ways I kept hearing over and over again was this aspect of military service. So that's what got me interested in going to the Air Force Academy.

422.31 - 454.014 John R. Miles

When I was a mid, my physics instructor was Wendy Lawrence. Wendy became the first Naval Academy female alumni to go to space. And she's been my mentor now ever since, so 30 plus years. But I remember talking to her and she told me very similarly that she saw this path to the Naval Academy, then becoming a pilot. doing all the things that she needed to become an astronaut, which she did.

454.995 - 478.273 John R. Miles

So you end up going to the Air Force Academy, and this is right after your mom, who we're gonna talk a lot about today, had a very heroic battle with pancreatic cancer. How did her passing in 2018 impact your journey and your aspirations at that point?

480.014 - 493.964 Madison Marsh

I mean, I feel like it was hard for me to understand how it was going to impact me in the way that it did now. But I remember one of the last things that I got to tell my mom was about how I was going to go to the Air Force Academy and about all of the dreams that I had for myself.

494.044 - 511.315 Madison Marsh

So it was like, even if she couldn't be there with me in person, she did still get to be a part of it in some way because she had known what I wanted to go and achieve. But now I would say the biggest way that her passing has changed me is even though I don't want to be an astronaut anymore, I don't want to fly for the military.

511.675 - 529.787 Madison Marsh

I've now had a newfound sense of purpose in life of what I love to do. And that's working on pancreatic cancer, whether that be in or out of the uniform. And I think that's been pretty incredible getting to have. her loss turned into something that could be positive for other people that can be meaningful and help their lives.

529.887 - 552.784 Madison Marsh

And I think now that I've gotten to choose that path and I'm on a road that now feels more true to who I am and true to what I've experienced in life, it definitely makes me a lot more excited about the prospects of my future versus how it was beforehand whenever I was chasing down this astronaut path for years and years when it slowly became something that wasn't something that I was genuinely passionate about anymore.

553.783 - 575.588 John R. Miles

The academies are all known for being rigorous. And I remember my plea beer and the stresses that were thrown upon me. I can't imagine having to navigate that environment while still grieving the loss of a parent. How difficult was that for you during those, when you were first at the academy?

576.977 - 597.405 Madison Marsh

I mean, I tried to not show up on the first day of basic because I was really afraid of what it was going to be like to one, be grieving my mom all the way across the country. And I didn't have any of my family, didn't have any of my friends with me. And I knew that on top of that, I had all of these ways that I was using to kind of grieve or maybe keep my mind off of it.

597.525 - 616.599 Madison Marsh

All those were being taken away from you because it's basic now. because it's time for you to focus on the training that they're going to give you. And that was incredibly difficult. I tried to not show up on the first day. My dad still made me go. The second day, I tried to call home and told them I was quitting. And he told me I couldn't come home if I quit, so I had to keep going.

616.779 - 639.558 Madison Marsh

And it didn't get easier from there. I remember, I mean, all throughout my first semester freshman year, I wanted to transfer to a different school that was going to be closer to home so I could be there for my little sister, for my dad. And it really wasn't until second semester of my duly year that I really started to fall in love with the place and fall in love with what they were providing me.

640.298 - 651.786 Madison Marsh

That was when I met Dr. Anderson, who's been a tremendous mentor to me that has really led me through so many important places in my life and Also met my now fiance and soon to be husband.

651.826 - 664.871 Madison Marsh

And I think getting to have those people that supported me there made that path of grieving a whole lot easier because then I had people that I could actually lean on and confide in when the days of the Academy just sucked.

665.936 - 686.918 John R. Miles

I have written a book called Passion Struck and in it, I describe my experience at the Naval Academy and the importance that grit had, the combination of perseverance and passion and helping me get through. How did your early struggles at the Academy help you develop grit and helped you become who you are today?

687.841 - 706.274 Madison Marsh

And I think some of it is a little bit against your own will because when you're there, you have no choice but to keep going. And on top of that, there were a lot of people that I promised that I was going to make it through. I promised my mom that I was going to graduate from the Air Force Academy, that I was going to do all of these things.

706.934 - 729.454 Madison Marsh

And then beyond that, I think in the beginning phases of the academy, it might be external, as in someone else is forcing you to be gritty and forcing you to be resilient because you have no choice. And slowly over time at the academy, it becomes more of an internal process of you're going through the suck because you believe in the process because you love it and you love the challenge.

730.035 - 747.445 Madison Marsh

And that's over time kind of what I learned. Finally got to be able to see and appreciate about the Academy because nothing good ever comes easy. And I love that aspect about it because when you're done and you push through the hard stuff, you feel so much prouder at the end. You actually earn something.

748.43 - 766.256 John R. Miles

And I think the Air Force Academy is similar to the Naval Academy in that you're judged on your academics, of course, but you're also judged on your military bearing. And then there's always a physical component to it as well. So what people don't understand about the grading system is it's much more complex.

766.436 - 787.419 John R. Miles

When I was there, our grades compared to people at civilian schools were much lower because of the different elements of it. Um, but it is definitely a challenging time. And there are often aspects of it where you're trying to seek out fun because you have so much stress on you that you're looking for an escape.

787.9 - 807.883 John R. Miles

For me, I kind of did that because I was a division one runner, but even with that, that brings on even more stress. And as I've done research on you, your interest in pageantry came during this challenging time as an outlet for fun and personal growth. Is that correct?

808.463 - 808.743 Madison Marsh

Yes.

810.824 - 827.351 John R. Miles

So how did you end up doing that? Because looking back, I just can't imagine doing everything that we had to do and then layering another challenge on top of it where you would have to prep and do all the things that you do. So how did you go about that?

828.632 - 848.595 Madison Marsh

I mean, I would say a lot of my prep overlapped with other areas of my life because I mean, at the Air Force Academy, obviously in any military capacity, you have to be physically fit. So there wasn't ever like a, oh, I need to be fit for stage. It was, I need to be fit year round so I can continue serving in the military.

849.136 - 869.399 Madison Marsh

And then when it came to interview prep, I was already doing interview prep for all of my scholarships that I was applying for. During my time at the Academy, I was an astronaut scholar, ended up becoming a Truman scholar, and then a Rhodes finalist. And those interviews are tough. And I remember every day after school, we had a public speaking lab at the academy for free.

870.059 - 889.057 Madison Marsh

And I would just go in and I would have them grill me on any political question, any question on my resume that they could think of. And so when it came time to prepare for a pageant, I was already doing the work. I was just now showing off the work that I had put in a very different and unconventional way that you don't typically see in the military.

890.037 - 913.524 John R. Miles

My plebe year roommate, and we were company mates the entire time I was there, was a Rhodes Scholar. And I know just how rigorous it was for him to go through that process. So congratulations for you for doing that. This whole podcast is really about. how intentional choices shape who we become. And you're just removed from the Air Force Academy.

913.965 - 933.021 John R. Miles

And right now, all the services are having issues with recruitment. And the same thing goes with the service academies. The number of people who are applying in some ways is down from what it used to be. What made you have the intentional choices to pursue these passions

934.133 - 953.965 John R. Miles

And how would you recommend young listeners who might be tuning in today could make the decision to pursue something hard like going to the Air Force Academy or like trying out for a pageantry? Because I think oftentimes we end up taking the easier path.

955.646 - 979.31 Madison Marsh

I mean, I've personally always liked the challenge because you feel proud of what you've accomplished when you finish. I mean, think of the people that are Olympians and the work that it took to get into something like that. The people that become the superstars, people that make the breakthroughs in research. None of that came from someone doing something easy.

979.89 - 996.661 Madison Marsh

You don't get greatness from taking the easy path. You get it from the challenge. You get it from the days that you fail and you fall down and you suck at things and you take that and you take your weaknesses and turn it into strengths and you learn from it. You learn from the people that are better than you.

997.081 - 1016.752 Madison Marsh

And I think that challenge and wanting to meet that challenge is what makes people into success. That's what gives them that greatness because of that willingness to fail and try again. and get up and try again until you get it right. And I think that comes with anything, but at the end of it, you also have to be passionate about what you're doing.

1016.972 - 1035.258 Madison Marsh

Obviously the military is not going to be for everybody. Pageants aren't going to be for everybody, but I can guarantee everyone has their little niche thing that they're interested in, a passion of theirs. And that's when you pour into that challenge. I mean, for me, I'm really passionate about my nonprofit and all the time I'm trying to figure out

1035.698 - 1050.626 Madison Marsh

ways that we can be better, figuring out the ways that I've messed up and how I can be a better leader the next time around, the next day, the next week, the next year. And that really applies to anything in your life. So of course, I would love for more people to join the military.

1050.666 - 1058.571 Madison Marsh

But at the end of it there, if you're not passionate about that, there are definitely other ways to still serve our country and also find that challenge and impact.

1059.645 - 1081.216 John R. Miles

I love how you bring up the suck because that's something that's a famous slogan of the SEAL teams, embrace the suck. And I think people think about SEALs and they think they go through BUDS, Basic Underwater Demolition School, and they immediately get the Trident. And that's not the case. Typically, it takes another 18 months, two years to finally pin on the Trident.

1081.276 - 1108.885 John R. Miles

And I have many friends and classmates who are SEALs. And what they tell me is, Anyone can get through a day of SEAL training. What the difficulty comes is, as you're describing, is it's getting up every single day, realizing that you're going to have to endure the suck and facing it and having the willpower to get through it and persevering. And that's what shapes them.

1108.945 - 1132.86 John R. Miles

The same thing is what you're describing shapes any passion that you want to do. So thanks for bringing that up. And many people have misconceptions about pageants. And you have said, as I've listened to and watched in other interviews, that pageantry shares many of the same core values with the military, such as leadership, public speaking, community service.

1134.421 - 1140.005 John R. Miles

What do you think people misunderstand the most about pageants? And what surprised you when you got involved?

1142.006 - 1161.047 Madison Marsh

There are a lot of things that I think people don't understand, but it's also I don't blame anyone for that. Obviously, the community of pageants is very small. It's just like maybe a lot of people have misconceptions about the military because they're not in the military. It's kind of the same thing. I think a lot of people still have those stereotypes about pageants.

1161.187 - 1180.114 Madison Marsh

women who compete in pageants that maybe they're very vain or that they might not be very intelligent and i think through competing in pageants i have met some incredibly passionate and intelligent young women who are impacting their communities in so many different ways than i could have ever imagined i mean if you watch

1180.874 - 1194.424 Madison Marsh

One night of Miss America and listen to the girls talking about their community service initiatives and the ways that they're impacting their communities. It's incredible because that's real work that's going back to hometowns all across America to help people who are in need.

1194.804 - 1202.029 Madison Marsh

And I love that because one of the things I always spoke to my cadets about at the Air Force Academy is finding ways to serve outside of your uniform.

1202.449 - 1221.162 Madison Marsh

I think when you're at the academy, you sometimes forget that life exists beyond the black gates and the confines of where you exist and being able to sometimes realize that you can give back to your immediate community and that doesn't have to necessarily come in the form of military service. That could be

1221.742 - 1242.668 Madison Marsh

showing up to take care of your family, your siblings, your loved ones, coming home for dinner and serving them in that way. Or maybe you're the person that's going to go out and volunteer every Saturday. Or maybe you're going to give up a couple days a month to go volunteer and serve your immediate community in that way. There are a lot of ways that we can interplay that in the military.

1242.708 - 1245.749 Madison Marsh

And those are lessons that I was also taught from competing in pageants.

1246.834 - 1270.881 John R. Miles

Thank you for sharing that. And becoming Miss America is no small feat. And I think that there's this stereotype that people have about Miss America, that they would think that you're different from a lot of the women who compete. But as I have come to understand it, as I have been studying this more and more, the talents that the women have are incredible.

1271.642 - 1287.715 John R. Miles

And the questions that you guys are asked during the competition really require a deep intellect to be able to answer them. I was hoping that maybe you can talk about that experience and some of the questions that were thrown at you and some of the other women who competed.

1289.17 - 1310.035 Madison Marsh

Absolutely. I remember my preliminary night question for my community service initiative was to talk about how I saw artificial intelligence interplaying with early detection of pancreatic cancer research. And that's something that you have to answer right on the spot in front of a crowd. And it's going to, by the way, exist on video for the rest of your life.

1310.055 - 1328.387 Madison Marsh

So you got to hope you don't mess it up. So that's kind of the things you have to prepare for all of the time. And then my finals night question after I'd made the top 11, they actually ended up switching up the way that we did the questions. So they weren't going to be about our community service initiatives anymore. We basically played musical chairs.

1328.887 - 1341.996 Madison Marsh

And then whatever chair you sat down in, you would hold up the number that was sitting there. And behind you would be a hot topic in America. And mine was about drugs in America. All it says is drugs in America. And you have a minute and a half, I believe, to respond to whoever you fit.

1342.676 - 1366.565 Madison Marsh

And my specialty, obviously, is not specifically in maybe the drug crisis happening in America, but I had the opportunity and the training to recognize I knew about different types of drugs in America, specifically cancer drug therapies and kind of the ways that we have major gaps in our system, specifically pertaining to pancreatic cancer. And so I had the opportunity to speak on that.

1366.665 - 1378.662 Madison Marsh

So constantly your wheels are always turning to see in what ways does the question that's being asked apply to some facet of your life and your passion so that people come away remembering your answer.

1380.754 - 1399.285 John R. Miles

The other thing that I think was so unique about your approach to the pageant was your talent performance. You did a monologue about your first solo flight, which was really, I thought, unconventional, but very impactful. What inspired that choice and how did you prepare to deliver such a unique performance?

1401.277 - 1419.046 Madison Marsh

Well, I couldn't sing or dance and you have to have a talent to compete in Miss America. So I thought to give a speech about something, but I knew you can't just give any normal speech. Like if I were to talk to you about what my solo flight was actually like, people would probably be a little bit bored because it would be monotonous.

1419.146 - 1439.786 Madison Marsh

And so the way that you take a speech and you elevate that is you really have to turn it into a performance. It's no longer just a speech that you might be giving like a keynote speech at a conference. It has to truly be a performance to put people where you are, bring them in and keep them listening and not looking away for that entire minute and a half. So I ended up meeting up

1440.206 - 1457.12 Madison Marsh

I had coaches that actually were previous actors or performers and kind of having them help me take something of me just talking about what it was like at the age of 16 to fly and turning it into something that was going to impact people or make them think twice. And I think what's been really cool is

1457.76 - 1476.664 Madison Marsh

Even though my talent might've been a little bit controversial to people, it's been really awesome hearing from these little girls now saying, oh, well, I kind of want to join the military or maybe I want to get into flying. I didn't really see that as a path for myself, but after watching that performance, it seems so fun. Like I really want to try it out.

1476.784 - 1484.365 Madison Marsh

And I think that's pretty cool because now if my little minute and a half could have inspired some young girls to go into aviation, then it was worth it.

1485.609 - 1506.485 John R. Miles

And I've heard you talk about, people have asked you the question, how do you feel about being a boundary breaker? And you always go to all the women who preceded you and all the other leaders who preceded you to break boundaries. But what you have done is pretty remarkable to be the first active duty military officer to earn this title.

1508.026 - 1513.631 John R. Miles

What does it mean to break this barrier and how have those others before you inspired your journey?

1514.517 - 1536.893 Madison Marsh

I feel like the people that have come before me have made us extremely privileged. I can't even grasp what it was like for the women who were the first ones to go to the Air Force Academy. I will never know what that's like. And I was extremely privileged to just always assume that I had the opportunity to go and apply and attend the school, and I didn't have to fight for anything.

1537.294 - 1560.115 Madison Marsh

So thanks to them and all the ones that had come before that to give us that, because it's still impacting us in ways that we honestly take for granted all of the time. We're the first women that joined the military. I take for granted being able to get up every day and just put my uniform on. And so now, I mean, those people were true groundbreakers, stereotype breakers.

1560.516 - 1585.494 Madison Marsh

They opened up doors for so many women to follow them. But I think what I've realized about this past year is maybe I don't necessarily see myself. I see them not even close to what they accomplished for young women, but at the same time, You don't have to be a big first or have a fancy title to change perceptions of people and to open up doors for other people.

1585.914 - 1605.045 Madison Marsh

Because even though, I mean, after I won, I thought, oh, maybe all it's going to be is just a flashy news headline. But it ended up turning into me being able to give hope to some other young women to show them that you don't have to sacrifice your personality or your passions in life to put on the uniform. And I think anybody can do that.

1605.145 - 1622.522 Madison Marsh

You don't have to be Miss America or have some other big title to make a difference in other people's lives. Just showing up and doing what you love can open up so many doors for other people. And I think that is just as impactful as being the first. Anybody has the ability to do that.

1623.396 - 1641.608 John R. Miles

I think that's such an important message. And I'll go back to my story about Wendy Lawrence, who became an astronaut. She was in the second class of females at the Naval Academy. I think it was the class of 81. And to put even more pressure on, her father was the superintendent during that time.

1642.128 - 1653.838 John R. Miles

So I can't even imagine what that would have been like, especially when he kept showing up on the hall to go visit her or would call her on the phone and they come to her room and say, The soup's on the phone for you.

1653.858 - 1655.479 Madison Marsh

That's great.

1657.48 - 1684.91 John R. Miles

But I also interviewed Vice Admiral Sandy Stowes, who was one of the first females to graduate from the Coast Guard Academy, ended up coming back to be their superintendent. And she told me, that typically during that time, about 60% of Coast Guard graduates would make it through. But for the first classes of females, it was under 30% just because they were harassed and tried to push out so much.

1684.99 - 1717.11 John R. Miles

So just hearing their stories and how they had, I guess they felt that they had to be even better to make it through and to push through is just an amazing story for both of them to see where they've ended up. So one of the things that being Miss America allows you to do is to have a platform of sorts, because you're on all kinds of media programs.

1717.891 - 1741.956 John R. Miles

In this one year, I can't even imagine what it's been like, the whirlwind you've been through. But for you, It's allowed you to do something that's very personal and has the ability to influence people worldwide. That is to talk about the Whitney Marsh Foundation that was founded in memory of your mom, which is such a powerful and personal initiative.

1742.657 - 1746.842 John R. Miles

Can you tell us how that began and what you hope to achieve through its work?

1748.18 - 1764.65 Madison Marsh

Absolutely. My mom passed away in 2018, whenever she was only 41 from pancreatic cancer. And about two weeks afterwards, my family was trying to figure out how we were going to deal with this loss and how we could turn it into something positive for other people. And that was how the Whitney Marsh Foundation was born.

1765.11 - 1777.457 Madison Marsh

My mom was a really big runner and we wanted to make sure that we encapsulated her actual personality and her passions and things that she really loved in life into the nonprofit. So one of the main ways that we've raised money over the past six years is

1777.837 - 1798.725 Madison Marsh

has been through hosting a 5K, 10K, to bring people together, doing something that my mom loved, but also promoting some of those healthy lifestyles that can hopefully maybe prevent against things like different forms of cancer. But now looking towards the future, we recognize that Arkansas might be an underrepresented state when it comes to cancer care.

1799.265 - 1820.45 Madison Marsh

We don't have one of the MD Intersons or the Johns Hopkins or anything of that nature. And we want to make sure that people don't have to leave our state to get the care that they need. So what I would love to see is the Whitney Marsh Foundation becomes one of the leading nonprofits for pancreatic cancer care in the state of Arkansas. so that we're able to bring in those resources.

1820.81 - 1830.175 Madison Marsh

We're able if people do have to leave the state, then maybe we can be the ones that are going to pay for their travel so that people aren't having to have that financial burden be a barrier to the care that they need to receive.

1832.199 - 1854.25 John R. Miles

That's such a noble mission. I have a friend, Bill, who has fought cancer now six times, and I actually had him on this program. But what he told me, I hadn't really thought about it through this lens, is that you have to look when you're fighting cancer almost as if it becomes a business, because people don't realize

1855.413 - 1877.576 John R. Miles

that in order to get the treatment, you need to go to the best place that they can provide it. And oftentimes, as you're saying, that's not in close proximity to you. So you have to figure out the logistics of how do you get there? How do you cover the costs? How do you get people to care for your home and potentially pets and other things while you're going there or if you have kids, et cetera?

1878.157 - 1888.531 John R. Miles

So there's a real need to have cancer treatment closer to where people live because it's difficult to get that support. What are your thoughts on that?

1889.873 - 1913.753 Madison Marsh

mean we saw whenever my mom went through we did have to send her outside of the state to get care and it's been really unfortunate because we know a lot of people in our state might not be able to afford to fly outside of arkansas maybe they don't have the ability to take off multiple days of work to go receive care from elsewhere and that is so unfortunate because everyone deserves

1914.474 - 1930.723 Madison Marsh

the right and the opportunity to survive. But with a disease like pancreatic cancer, with it being as difficult as it is to treat, to detect, to cure, you do have to go sometimes to those best places. And I want everyone to be able to have that same opportunity that my family had.

1931.223 - 1937.727 Madison Marsh

Obviously, we don't have any perfect answers or solutions right now, but that is going to be our goal and mission as a nonprofit moving forward.

1938.752 - 1961.821 John R. Miles

People who are regular listeners to this know that my sister passed away earlier this year, also from pancreatic cancer. She first developed it when she was 46. And I remember after she had gotten the Whipple surgery and it ended up coming back, she was really put in this place after they did several rounds of chemo that she had to do clinical trials.

1962.761 - 1982.781 John R. Miles

And I remember she was having to do it in San Antonio, which meant that in order to do that, the logistics were twice a month. She had to find a way to get down there to San Antonio. She had a son who was in middle school. So it was very challenging. So I just look at what she went through and how important that could be.

1983.822 - 2012.935 John R. Miles

So because of your mom and my sister, you and I are both, we both hold pancreatic cancer awareness and research close to our hearts. And I know we both try to support PanCan as much as we can, who has made some huge strives in both increasing the awareness and prolonging the lifespan of so many people who are faced with this devastating disease. What progress do you see as being made in pancreatic

2013.561 - 2017.604 John R. Miles

cancer research and treatment, and how can people support this cause?

2019.285 - 2035.515 Madison Marsh

I mean, one thing that I've seen at least over the past six years has been that rise in survival rate. Even though it's been slow, it has been a steady increase. And I think that gives me a lot of hope because I talked to Julie Fleshman, the CEO of Pan Can about this a lot.

2036.235 - 2055.683 Madison Marsh

What I always look towards is breast cancer, where they were 40 years ago, because that's kind of where pancreatic cancer is sitting now. 40 years ago, breast cancer was basically a death sentence. I mean, there wasn't high survival rates. There really wasn't anything going on in the field. And look at where it is now.

2056.383 - 2064.127 Madison Marsh

the money that's put into it, the research, the early detection avenues, the survival rate, how drastically it's increased.

2064.567 - 2084.318 Madison Marsh

That's the hope that I see for pancreatic cancer, because even though we're slow and steady right now, I think now that we've been able to break those first initial barriers to getting people to be more educated about it, to have more awareness, to get more researchers involved, I think that's only now opening up more and more doors to accelerate

2084.858 - 2109.357 John R. Miles

the needs that we can meet in the coming years i think that's so important and i think one of the keys to pancreatic cancer is early detection because the most feasible treatment that they can give you is the whipple surgery which has had the most profound effect on people having longevity yet it's often caught so late and i'm happy to hear that there are companies like epi one

2110.063 - 2128.626 John R. Miles

who have now found blood work tests that people can take that will tell you if you've got the precursors for this so that you can get examined more regularly if you are one of those people who meet those criteria. And I hope so much more of that comes.

2129.187 - 2156.15 John R. Miles

Plus, I really hope that they find a way that they can utilize immunotherapy and find ways to penetrate the membrane of pancreatic cancer, which has been really problematic in treating it with chemotherapy, immunotherapy, and everything else. So those are some of the big things I hope to see in the future. So you have really used your platform to amplify the foundation's mission.

2156.63 - 2160.752 John R. Miles

What do you think has been the most rewarding moment in your advocacy journey so far?

2160.772 - 2172.857 Madison Marsh

One of the parts that I've really loved this year is whenever people get to come up and share some of their own stories with me and saying, oh, I heard you talking about this on the news.

2174.522 - 2198.145 Madison Marsh

And I want to tell you about a person that I loved and lost to pancreatic cancer, because even though it's not a community or a club you necessarily want to be a part of, I think the family that I've been able to gain from the pancreatic cancer world has been pretty incredible. And a moment that I've personally also really loved this year was at our race.

2198.866 - 2209.698 Madison Marsh

I've never had any survivors ever come to Whitney's race before and this year we had. Multiple, they had never met each other before and then ended up seeing on their T shirts saying survivor. So.

2210.218 - 2233.034 Madison Marsh

Them and their families and their spouses, they all walk together and there's this 1 photo of a survivor that I met and getting to hear his story of him walking across the finish line with his hand in the air. And I just think getting to see photos like that gives us a lot of hope for what we can achieve. And I know it's definitely shown to my volunteers, this is what we are working towards.

2233.434 - 2240.036 Madison Marsh

We want this guy's story to amplify and be like, just like every other patient. And that's been pretty incredible to get to see.

2240.911 - 2263.739 John R. Miles

I had Maria Menounos on the podcast earlier this year to highlight her journey, and I'm really grateful for the work that she is also doing to try to help get the word out about this with the platform that she has. Are there additional stories from the PanCan family that you'd like to share of inspiration and to give listeners hope?

2265.188 - 2282.453 Madison Marsh

I mean, I would say if anyone's going to listen to any of the stories, they should go hear it right from the mouth. There are pages on PanCan's website of testimonies of survivors. Also on our page at the foundation, we run a newsletter every single month.

2282.573 - 2304.158 Madison Marsh

And that typically includes interviews either from survivors or family members and their stories and experiences with pancreatic cancer, because we want to remember everybody's story. We want to highlight those, give people hope, but also give people the opportunity to memorialize the people that they love. And so we have that on our page and on PanCan's page.

2304.518 - 2315.22 Madison Marsh

And I think reading through all of those stories always re-centers me to my passion, my purpose, and our mission towards a better future for all pancreatic cancer patients.

2315.9 - 2337.513 John R. Miles

I mean, those stories are truly inspirational and thank you for highlighting that. And I'll make sure We put all the resources to PanCan and the past interviews that I've done in here as well, because I've had Julie on the podcast and the chief science officer and some other members as well of their community. So I wanna go back to Miss America for a second.

2338.937 - 2363.089 John R. Miles

I have a classmate from the Naval Academy who ended up playing professional football for the Green Bay Packers, actually won a Super Bowl ring. And I know for him, he had a lot of trial and tribulation trying to convince the Secretary of the Navy at the time to allow him to play. It wasn't the easiest thing for him to do. I understand from following you that

2364.119 - 2390.573 John R. Miles

As you were pursuing this, you were very open with the Air Force about the fact that you were doing the pageant. You went to your commanding officer and leadership chain and kind of said, the chances of me becoming Miss America are very slim, one out of 52, but you wanted to prepare for it, et cetera. So how has the Air Force supported your role as Miss America?

2392.548 - 2412.635 Madison Marsh

I wouldn't get to be Miss America without the Air Force's support in so many different ways. One, I wouldn't have been able to achieve this without the mentors at the Academy, without all the lessons that I had learned from the Air Force, but also kind of what you just mentioned about how they had helped me prepare for the opportunity.

2412.775 - 2434.825 Madison Marsh

I remember after I, even going to prepare for Miss Colorado, I was talking to my commanders about that to make sure I had all the tools and resources to make sure that everybody was aware of what we were getting into. And then afterwards, preparing them for Miss America to come up with some sort of mock plan of what we would want my year to look like so that it would be worth our time.

2435.205 - 2457.899 Madison Marsh

We could get all the use out of it for what the Air Force needed to me and to ensure that I'm still meeting the standards as an officer. Because I also made it clear to them that Yes, this is my side passion, obviously, but the Air Force comes first because I made a promise to serve, sign my name on that dotted line, and that was my duty and my mission first above all else.

2458.46 - 2479.133 Madison Marsh

So if the pageant wasn't going to be able to fit into it, then I would have turned down the opportunity, gone back to school, and gone back into my service. But luckily, the Air Force did see the value and this opportunity and the types of recruiting that we could change the mission force. So we had spoken about it in the months beforehand. Lots of people got involved.

2479.353 - 2491.819 Madison Marsh

And then after I won, I called the lawyers and the air force to let them know that what we had been preparing for actually happened and let my commanders know. And they quickly got to work with all of the people at the Pentagon.

2492.619 - 2510.554 Madison Marsh

And my congressman, I believe, ended up giving a call to the Secretary of the Air Force to talk about what this could look like and the impact that we could have if they kept me on active duty. So I'm really lucky that they did, because the Air Force has truly taken care of me so much this year.

2510.594 - 2523.343 Madison Marsh

And I know my new commanders that have taken on this position to lead me through the Miss America process have really taken me in like family and had always made sure that above all else, they were able to put my well-being first.

2523.423 - 2534.851 Madison Marsh

And I think that has meant a tremendous amount to me now recognizing the impact that it's had and how I can carry that into when I get to lead people again after this year is over.

2535.632 - 2546.475 John R. Miles

It's got to be a lot doing this and being in the military full time. How do you balance doing both and how do you put 100% into being able to do both?

2548.296 - 2570.267 Madison Marsh

Well, I wouldn't be able to do it without the Air Force. They are constantly working to make sure that I'm in regs, within the guidelines, that I'm following everything, staying legal. They're the ones, they're like hawk's eyes. Now I've gotten really good at flagging things before they even happened because they were recognizing potential problems 10 steps ahead of everybody else.

2570.307 - 2600.108 Madison Marsh

And I think that has really helped me stay in both of those positions. But even more so than that, I think downtime is the biggest thing. People don't recognize how draining any sort of job can be. And I think giving your people back time to recharge and be with their families is an incredible gift to get people filled up again, to be ready to do the job. And the Air Force saw that.

2600.168 - 2620.996 Madison Marsh

I mean, I think my commanders truly recognize that this year. So any time that they could to figure out where they could be able to give me some time off or give time back because I had been working for so many extra days. I had given weekends up. They wanted to make sure that I was able to take the time to be with my loved ones, to recharge at home. And that's how you make both the jobs work.

2621.116 - 2632.438 Madison Marsh

And I think that's a big lesson I'm going to be taking into when I go back full time into a normal Air Force job after Miss America is over to make sure that my people come first every time.

2633.038 - 2658.007 Madison Marsh

people are the most incredible resource that the air force has that the military has you can't buy enough people and the time and the mission and the passion they are willing to give back so you have to give to them to make sure that they're able to do that job well you have to make sure that if you're calling the men to work extra hours and give up their time that as a leader you are going to be there doing it with them

2658.427 - 2673.253 Madison Marsh

And if you are going to be asking them to give a lot of that time up, find ways that you can give things back to them to keep them recentered on the mission, able to continue filling up their cup and giving back in the best way that they can. Show up for your people and they will show up to do their job.

2674.073 - 2692.679 John R. Miles

I think that's such an important message, whether you're in the military or you're a leader overseeing people in a civilian role. It's showing up for the people around you. And I think that's one of the reasons we have so much disengagement today is because people don't feel like they hold significance in their roles.

2692.759 - 2709.648 John R. Miles

They don't feel like the companies treat them as if they matter and that what they're doing is important. that being reinforced and people being treated for their individual talents. So I think you're really onto something there with what you were just talking about.

2710.894 - 2732.675 John R. Miles

I looking back when you first won this award, you knew if you were going to win it, that you were going to be thrust into the limelight, you were going to have to be on all these TV programs, etc. But once you went from imagining it to actually doing it, how big a chasm did that turn out to be?

2734.805 - 2754.491 Madison Marsh

I mean, it was pretty scary, to be totally honest. I try to keep a lot of my personal life still private. And when people get super excited about everything in Miss America or happening in the Air Force, the media really wants to draw out all of these things. And I remember the first week I had

2755.091 - 2777.831 Madison Marsh

reporters finding out where i lived in my hometown back in arkansas and they were trying to come into our house and figure out where i went to school so they could go into the school and find yearbook photos and go through every little small detail of my life and i did not like that so i made sure to set some lines up with my family and also with the press.

2777.951 - 2789.109 Madison Marsh

I knew that my fiance didn't want to be in a lot of the photos that were being handed out to the press, so making sure we were keeping that private. Or I didn't want people going through all of my

2789.629 - 2812.487 Madison Marsh

childhood and high school photos so please don't give them all the addresses so they can go find things about me and then especially when it comes to negative press and negative media because that has happened a lot this year I have told my family I don't want to see it and I don't want to hear about it because I can't change people's public opinion and what they're saying about me.

2812.507 - 2834.382 Madison Marsh

I can only do what I do, show up, do it well and work hard. And sometimes that's not going to be enough for people. And I had a hard line with them that if they see something, please do not tell me because it's not going to change what they've said or what they've done. And I need to stay re-centered and focused on the job and the mission that's currently at hand and in front of me.

2835.876 - 2858.933 John R. Miles

I used to go to church in Austin, Texas with Matthew McConaughey. And for about 18 months, he got to come religiously and be himself with his kids and his wife. And it was fantastic because he was just He just wanted to go to church. He just wanted to have a place where he could be himself, I felt, by observing him.

2859.594 - 2880.259 John R. Miles

And then all of a sudden, I guess some people put up social media posts that they had seen him there. And so the paparazzi started showing up and I really felt bad for him. And being in this role, it's gotta give you some understanding of what it's like to be a celebrity and the challenges that they face.

2881.42 - 2896.451 John R. Miles

What's one thing that you would say to listeners about when someone's in that position, a lot of people say, Matthew, he's this movie star, he deserves this scrutiny that he gets and he shouldn't have a public life.

2897.091 - 2921.869 Madison Marsh

you shouldn't have a private life everything should be public what do you say about that now that you've lived it i've gotten a very small taste of everything this year and i think that the grass is always greener i think that people think that every they see everything through rose-colored glasses and say oh well they can't complain about x y and z because they got to have that position or they got to be famous or they got x amount of followers

2922.389 - 2941.849 Madison Marsh

And none of that matters because at the end of the day, this is coming off in a month from now and I'm going to go right back to just being Madison Marsh. Not any of the titles or the accolades, nothing. I'll just, as I have always been, just me. And understanding that even though people might get to have that fame or the fortune

2942.912 - 2965.614 Madison Marsh

that people still go through individual struggles and everyone has a right to privacy, no matter how much they put out in the public world. Everyone has a right to just be a human and enjoy time with their family and get to just be them and not have to have the burden of their job. Because luckily enough for majority of the world, when you take off

2966.154 - 2992.382 Madison Marsh

from work every day you get to go back to being just you but for them maybe it seems like they have to do it 24 7 they always have to be on they always have to be thinking about who's watching who's taking photos and so giving those people that time and that ability to just be themselves because we'll never be able to understand what that's like for them but we can be a little bit more gracious and forgiving to people to make sure that everyone gets to have some sort of a fair experience

2993.806 - 3020.743 John R. Miles

As the face of the Air Force, which you've become, probably not even wanting to be that, but it's literally what you've become, and Miss America, how do you see your role in inspiring the next generation to consider military service? And what message do you hope to share with potential recruits about the opportunities and values in the Air Force, but in all the services?

3023.55 - 3041.248 Madison Marsh

and work with recruiting this year. Obviously we always talk about, we want more people, but what I want, not necessarily quantity, but I want quality candidates. I want people that are genuinely passionate about serving the United States and putting the uniform on.

3041.809 - 3064.719 Madison Marsh

Because I never know, maybe the person that I'm talking to is going to end up getting deployed with my fiance or one of my best friends in the Air Force and their ability to work hard, follow orders and be courageous and be a leader to others. That could potentially be the difference of life or death for some of my friends that are going to serve alongside them. So I want good quality candidates.

3064.799 - 3082.125 Madison Marsh

I want people that want the challenge, that are willing to work hard, that are willing to have sucky things happen to them in their service and know how to get through it and band together with the people beside them. That's who I'm looking for. I want leaders of character joining the military.

3083.305 - 3105.912 John R. Miles

Thank you so much for that. And I completely agree with you. We need leaders of character protecting our freedom. So we started this whole episode talking about outer space and your desire to become an astronaut. And I want to use that to lead into a quote that I've heard you talk about. You said the sky is not the limit and the only person stopping you is you.

3105.932 - 3114.441 John R. Miles

How has this philosophy guided you through the challenges you faced and how do you hope to inspire others to embrace the mindset in their own lives?

3115.939 - 3136.784 Madison Marsh

I would say you're probably going to find at least one person, if not multiple, in your life who maybe don't believe in you, have maybe instilled doubt. But really, at the end of the day, that opinion doesn't matter. What other people want you to do with your life doesn't matter. I know I've gotten a lot of pushback this year for saying I'm not going to pilot training anymore.

3136.864 - 3156.316 Madison Marsh

But at the end of the day, at the end of my life, The only person whose life I'm going to live is mine. And the only life that you are going to live is yours. So stop living for other people. Stop living for their praise, for the accolades, and just find something that you actually care about, that you're passionate about.

3156.336 - 3176.049 Madison Marsh

Because I can tell you right now, you are going to do a much better job if you do something that you care about and you work hard at it. Because whenever you combine that passion with your purpose, you are able to become more resilient, to produce a better product, to impact the world in ways that you could never imagine. So focus on that.

3176.129 - 3192.221 Madison Marsh

Focus on the true meaning of what it means to live your life and stop living to somebody else's definition of success. Because if you do that, you are never going to find success. You're always going to be chasing the next thing and the next thing and the next thing instead of living in the moment and defining to you what it means to succeed.

3193.852 - 3211.384 John R. Miles

oftentimes what gets to become the barrier for people pursuing their dreams or not is self-belief. What would be your advice to listeners and viewers on how you would suggest they build that self-belief that they can do anything they put their mind to?

3212.389 - 3234.997 Madison Marsh

For me, it's always been about proving myself right. I never enter into things to prove somebody else wrong. It's all about, I know that I come in with the skills that could enable me to do anything should I work hard and do it right. Not everyone's gonna be gifted to be great at things naturally. I know that I wasn't gifted to be naturally good at school.

3235.277 - 3257.342 Madison Marsh

I remember, I think it was maybe back in elementary school, I was performing really, poorly in my classes and somehow throughout high school, recognizing that my weaknesses don't have to remain as weaknesses. I can lean on other people. I can go to tutors. I can go to my classmates that are better at that subject than me to learn from them and get better.

3257.622 - 3272.986 Madison Marsh

And that's how you build that self-confidence because you begin to realize that you don't always have to continue quote failing at something. You can use those failures and turn them into success stories because you work hard at them. You are the only person that gets to define how you succeed.

3273.366 - 3282.051 Madison Marsh

So don't give up on yourself now because you're only cutting out a potential story that could lead you to the greatest accomplishment or greatest experience of your life.

3283.973 - 3293.739 John R. Miles

Okay. And the last thing I just want to ask you and leave with is your mom. What's a little thing that she did that stayed with you forever?

3296.849 - 3319.654 Madison Marsh

I would say even towards the end of her life, she was always focused on other people. There was a note that we had found in her phone that she had written to herself after her Whipple surgery was canceled. And her note was not focused on wishing she could have achieved just one more thing or wishing she would have stayed at work a little bit longer or sent off another text or an email.

3320.195 - 3332.924 Madison Marsh

She was worried about her family, how we were going to continue on after she passed away, wishing that she had more time with us to just create memories. And I think that means a lot to me because I feel like we all kind of get stuck

3333.644 - 3357.404 Madison Marsh

in this race of going to the next achievement going and getting the next thing and continuing to run and run and never recognizing the true importance of life of what is directly in front of you and that is creating a life of meaning with people that are meaningful to you right in front of you my mom if she got to be here today she wouldn't be worried about winning miss america or

3359.085 - 3376.743 Madison Marsh

Winning a Rhodes Scholarship or staying after work just a little bit later to get ahead. She would be worried about, can I have an extra meal with my family this weekend? And so that truly recenters me after this year because success means nothing if you don't have anybody to come home to.

3378.095 - 3399.407 Madison Marsh

And me getting to come home to my family, getting to come home to my fiance and sharing these moments with him. That's what gives this meaning is getting to share that with people, getting to create moments of purpose for other people that get to follow behind us. That is how you create meaning in life. It's not about the accomplishment itself.

3399.467 - 3411.378 Madison Marsh

It's about what you can do for other people, how you can serve other people and create a life full of love. And that's going to stick with me forever. Thanks to how my mom really just carried out her life up until the very end.

3412.95 - 3435.826 John R. Miles

Well, I think Webster should put in under psychological wealth what you just talked about because that's really what it is. Well, Madison, thank you so much for being here and congratulations again. And I know you're probably happy and sad to see this phase of your life come to a close, but I'm sure you're exhausted at this point. Thank you again for coming on the show.

3435.866 - 3437.146 John R. Miles

It was really an honor to have you.

3437.787 - 3439.328 Madison Marsh

Well, thank you so much. I appreciated it.

3440.305 - 3455.878 John R. Miles

What an inspiring conversation with Madison Marsh. Her story of breaking barriers as the first active duty Air Force officer crowned Miss America, her relentless advocacy for pancreatic cancer awareness, and her ability to balance service, leadership, and purpose is nothing short of extraordinary.

3456.098 - 3473.309 John R. Miles

Madison's journey reminds us of the power of resilience, intentionality, and using our passions to make a difference in the lives of others. As you reflect on today's episode, think about this. What legacy do you want to leave? How can you take your passions and transform them into a purpose that not only fulfills you, but also serves others?

3473.649 - 3490.913 John R. Miles

Like Madison demonstrated, our challenges don't define us. They shape the mission we're called to fulfill. All the links to Madison's work, including the Whitney Marsh Foundation and her advocacy for pancreatic cancer awareness, will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use those links to learn more. It's a great way to support her mission. and the show.

3491.014 - 3501.421 John R. Miles

You can also find this episode and more on YouTube and check out our sponsors and exclusive deals at passionstruck.com slash deals. Supporting those who support the show helps us keep bringing you these impactful conversations.

3501.562 - 3517.952 John R. Miles

For more resources to help you live a purpose-driven life, head over to passionstruck.com where you can take our Passion Struck quiz or sign up for the Live Intentionally newsletter packed with weekly insights, exercises, and challenges to ignite your potential. If Madison's story resonated with you, please take a moment to leave a five-star rating and review.

3518.112 - 3531.677 John R. Miles

It makes a huge difference in helping us reach others with these powerful stories. And don't forget to share this episode with someone who could use a dose of inspiration and encouragement today. Now, here's a sneak peek of what's coming up next on Passion Struck. I'm joined by Caroline Adams Miller.

3531.917 - 3545.354 John R. Miles

a trailblazing expert in the field of positive psychology and goal setting, and author of Big Goals, The Science of Setting Them, Achieving Them, and Creating Your Best Life. And our conversation will dive into the science of achieving big goals, cultivating grit, and finding lasting happiness.

3545.534 - 3551.021 John R. Miles

Caroline's practical insights and actionable strategies will help you push past mediocrity and unlock your best life.

3551.141 - 3574.988 Caroline Adams Miller

People think SMART goals is a thing, and it's not. It was a guy in the 80s, George Doran, consultant, just wrote an article for a management magazine, and he created an acronym that was sticky, but it's what I call jargon mishmash syndrome. That acronym means different things all over the world, relatable, realistic. It could be measurable, meaningful.

3575.288 - 3579.089 Caroline Adams Miller

There is no one acronym that fits SMART goals. It ain't science.

3579.249 - 3591.435 John R. Miles

Thank you for spending time with us today. Remember, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Let's keep building this community and living what we listen. Until next time, live life, passion strong.