Passion Struck with John R. Miles
Katherine Morgan Schafler on Control, Perfectionism, and Letting Go | EP 572
Thu, 13 Feb 2025
Have you ever felt that your pursuit of excellence leaves you more stressed than satisfied? What if perfectionism isn’t a flaw to be fixed but a strength to be harnessed?In episode 572, John sits down with Katherine Morgan Schafler, psychotherapist, speaker, and author of The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control: A Path to Peace and Power. Katherine’s groundbreaking approach challenges everything we think we know about perfectionism, showing us that it isn’t something we need to eliminate—but rather, something we can transform into a tool for personal and professional growth.They explore the five types of perfectionists—Classic, Intense, Parisian, Messy, and Procrastinator—and how understanding your type can unlock self-awareness, resilience, and healthier relationships. Katherine reveals how perfectionism intersects with belonging, self-worth, and the universal need to matter, as well as why it can be both a motivator and a barrier in our pursuit of fulfillment.Full shownotes can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/katherine-morgan-schafler-on-perfectionism/Key takeaways:1. The Three Dimensions of a Good Life2. How Novelty and Exploration Lead to Fulfillment3. The Global Village Paradox and Social Media's Impact4. Happiness vs. Meaning vs. Psychological Richness5. Why Regret Comes from Inaction6. The Role of Negative Emotions in a Rich Life7. How to Cultivate Psychological RichnessConnect with Katherine Morgan Schafler: https://www.katherinemorganschafler.com/Sponsors:Rosetta Stone: Unlock 25 languages for life at “ROSETTASTONE.com/passionstruck.”Prolon: Reset your health with 15% off at “ProlonLife.com/passionstruck.”Mint Mobile: Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at “MINT MOBILE dot com slash PASSION.”Hims: Start your journey to regrowing hair with Hims. Visit hims.com/PASSIONSTRUCK for your free online visit.Quince: Discover luxury at affordable prices with Quince. Enjoy free shipping and 365-day returns at quince.com/PASSIONNext on Passion Struck:In the next episode of Passion Struck, John sits down with Katherine Morgan Schaffler, a renowned psychotherapist and author of The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, a Path to Peace and Power. Katherine challenges the conventional view of perfectionism, suggesting that it can be harnessed as a personal superpower rather than a flaw. Don't miss this enlightening conversation that could transform your relationship with perfectionism.For more information on advertisers and promo codes, visit Passion Struck Deals.Join the Passion Struck Community! Sign up for the Live Intentionally newsletter, where I share exclusive content, actionable advice, and insights to help you ignite your purpose and live your most intentional life. Get access to practical exercises, inspiring stories, and tools designed to help you grow. Learn more and sign up here.Speaking Engagements & Workshops Are you looking to inspire your team, organization, or audience to take intentional action in their lives and careers? I’m available for keynote speaking, workshops, and leadership training on topics such as intentional living, resilience, leadership, and personal growth. Let’s work together to create transformational change. Learn more at johnrmiles.com/speaking.Episode Starter Packs With over 500 episodes, it can be overwhelming to know where to start. We’ve curated Episode Starter Packs based on key themes like leadership, mental health, and personal growth, making it easier for you to dive into the topics you care about. Check them out at passionstruck.com/starterpacks.Catch More of Passion Struck:My solo episode on Why You Need to Stop Chasing Perfection in Your LifeMy episode with Homaira Kabir on How You Overcome the Tyranny of PerfectionCan't miss my episode with Thomas Curran on Breaking Free From the Perfection TrapCatch my interview with Eduardo Briceño on Break Free from the Performance ParadoxListen to my solo episode on Why Hustle Culture Is Toxic (And How to Break Free From It)If you liked the show, please leave us a review—it only takes a moment and helps us reach more people! Don’t forget to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally.How to Connect with John:Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMiles and on Instagram at @John_R_Miles. Subscribe to our main YouTube Channel here and to our YouTube Clips Channel here. For more insights and resources, visit John’s website.Want to explore where you stand on the path to becoming Passion Struck? Take our 20-question quiz on Passionstruck.com and find out today!
Chapter 1: How can perfectionism be transformed into a strength?
Yeah. Someone asked me on a panel once, like, so how did you decide to go with the publisher and not self-publish? And I could not stop laughing because I was like, I, just publishers do so much work and agents and there's so much behind the scenes stuff that is so hard and tedious and like doing that in addition to the creative work of putting something out into the world.
I don't, I can't do that. And I don't want to learn how, because I don't need to, you know, because you can have people who are very good at that and who love doing that and for whom that is a strength and could do that really easily. You can have those people help you to do it and you can help them by saying, here's a great book.
Can you bind it and put a barcode on it and get it into Barnes and Nobles and do all the stuff that I have zero interest in doing?
And Catherine, that brings us to the last one, the intense perfectionist who's laser focused on their vision, often struggling with anger or frustration when things don't go as planned. And as I was reading this type, it made me think of Steve Jobs.
Yeah.
Because he was someone who was so laser focused on his vision. He didn't give a hoot about likability. That was like the last thing from his mind. And this is a type in the Fortune 50 world that I existed in, I saw a lot of this. And you see a lot of it, I think, in entrepreneurs too.
So how can someone, if they're an intense perfectionist, balance their drive for results with the need for collaborating and having empathy on others, which typically can be lacking? Yeah.
So intense perfectionist pros side are exactly that. They don't care so much about being liked by others, which tends to help them professionally and hurt them personally. But when you don't care so much, when you're not fixated on people liking you and winning a popularity contest, it's very easy for you to be direct. Right?
Often we get into like a politeness contest with people because we don't want to hurt their feelings or we don't want to be perceived in a certain way. We're focused on impression management. Intense perfectionists have no time for that. And that's really helpful in creating momentum around a project and infusing efficiency.
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Chapter 2: What are the five types of perfectionists?
Well, Catherine, thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm going to have to wrap up here because I know you need to go. But this is one of those episodes where I wish I had another hour with you because there are a few that we just talked about self-punishment. But there are a few things I just want to give to the audience on why they should buy this book.
Uh, two of my favorite chapters were chapter seven and chapter eight and chapter seven. Catherine goes into 10 key perspective shifts to help you find the success you're looking for. And in chapter eight, she goes through eight behavioral strategies to help each type of perfectionist. So definitely encourage you to buy the book, to learn about those things.
And one of the, my favorite things that you talk about in the book is perfectionism is a power and. To me, it's this whole idea that we're already whole, not because of what we do, but because of who we are and embracing this belief can deepen our sense of belonging. And we shouldn't look at perfectionism as a negative aspect to us, but as a strength, we just need to learn how to harness.
So with that, what is the best way for listeners to learn more about you?
Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me and sharing your hard one platform with me. You're so easy to talk to. I loved this. And I also wish we had another, I'm going to call it three hours.
I can, you know, I think reading a book by a therapist and going to actual therapy are very different things, but I tried my best to punch like two years of therapy into a book of universal themes that whether you identify as a perfectionist or not, like, they're going to be salient for you in some way. At least they have been for me in my life.
And the whole book is really like a container space for myself. It's like a ringing bell for me to help remember the things that I know. I feel like so much of our personal work, you could tell me if you disagree or not, is like just 90% of the work is just remembering what you know. You know what I mean? But we can fall into these moments of amnesia when it comes to this stuff.
You can find me at my website, kathrynmorganschaffler.com. I'm also on Instagram at kathrynmorganschaffler. And you can take a quiz, a fun, not empirically validated one minute online personality quiz to find out what your perfectionist profile is at perfectionistguide.com or in any of the other places I just said.
And the book is called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power. And it's available in hardcover, paperback, on Audible, at all the places that you can buy all the books. So thank you so much again for having me. I loved this conversation.
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Chapter 3: How did Katherine's personal journey influence her understanding of control?
Fear is a real MF-er, a top shelf grade A son of a bitch that will let you ruin your whole week if you let it run the show. That's a sentence in the book. And in this world of so much information coming at us all the time, it's hard to filter out what we should be worried about and what we shouldn't.
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