NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
How To Have a Better Relationship With Money and Maximize Every Dollar
Mon, 14 Apr 2025
Learn how to explore your money beliefs and take real steps toward saving and investing, even on a tight income. What’s really behind your money habits? How can you build savings and invest if you’re not earning much? Hosts Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayoola discuss how your relationship with money shapes your financial behaviors and what you can do to change that narrative. Joined by Shannah Game, host of Everyone’s Talkin’ Money and author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, they begin with a discussion of how money beliefs form in childhood, how your body gives clues about financial stress, and how weekly “money dates” can help shift your mindset, spending, and long-term financial outcomes. Then, Katie, a listener navigating a career change and major life transition, joins Sean and Elizabeth to discuss budgeting on a lower income and how to make progress on both emergency savings and retirement. They discuss how to build an emergency fund with irregular income, when and how to roll over 403(b) accounts into an IRA, and how to invest small amounts without feeling discouraged. The conversation also covers tools like the 50/30/20 budget and NerdWallet’s retirement calculator to help Katie — and listeners like her — build a path forward, even if they feel like they're starting late. Are you on track to save enough for retirement? Use NerdWallet’s free retirement calculator to check your progress, see how much retirement income you'll have and estimate how much more you should save: https://www.nerdwallet.com/calculator/retirement-calculator NerdWallet’s roundup of the best IRA accounts: https://www.nerdwallet.com/best/investing/ira-accounts In their conversation, the Nerds discuss: how to fix your relationship with money, money beliefs, financial trauma, budgeting on low income, how to start saving money, emotional spending, how to invest with little money, financial self-awareness, weekly money date, how much to save for emergencies, what is a 403b, 403b rollover to IRA, Roth IRA vs traditional IRA, how to track spending, how to set money goals, compound interest explained, how to save for retirement in your 30s, moving in with a partner finances, financial independence, personal finance for late starters, how to handle a career pivot financially, how to build an emergency fund, aligning spending with goals, how to start investing in your 30s, best IRAs for beginners, saving vs investing priorities, high-yield savings account, budgeting tools for beginners, financial planning on hourly wages, financial literacy basics, how to track expenses, how to make money habits stick, celebrating financial wins, how childhood affects money habits, somatic responses to money, financial therapy, how to stop money anxiety, 50/30/20 budget rule, NerdWallet retirement calculator. To send the Nerds your money questions, call or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373 or email [email protected]. Like what you hear? Please leave us a review and tell a friend.
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and guest of this episode?
Well, this episode will help you get better acquainted with your financial self. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles.
And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. This episode, we talk with a listener about how to make progress on savings and investing goals, even when money is tight.
Chapter 2: Why is exploring your relationship with money important?
But first, we're going deep into your relationship with money. Elizabeth, if you could use one word to describe your relationship with money, what would that be?
I would say it varies depending on the month and what I have going on. So in December, it would have been toxic. But today it is partnership. We are working as a team to get me closer to my dream life. And you know what? That is progress, Elizabeth.
For many people, I'm guessing that word might be tense or maybe even unhealthy, but exploring your relationship with money is an important investment, one that can pay all sorts of dividends in big and small ways.
And to help us explore our relationships with money, we are joined by Shauna Game, host of the podcast, Everyone's Talking Money, and author of the new book, Unraveling Your Relationship With Money, Ditch Your Money Trauma So You Can Live an Abundant Life. Shauna, welcome back to Smart Money.
Hey, thanks so much for having me. So Shauna, your book is called Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. Tell me, why do you think people need to dissect their money relationship and what is the goal?
Such a good question, Elizabeth. I think that we live in this vacuum where we think that money is only about math. And it's really unfortunate because it is about so much more. It's about emotions and behaviors and habits and story and how we were raised. And all of that plays into how we save, spend, and even earn our money.
So I think it's so critical that we bring this idea of relationship with money into the conversation about pools. And particularly for most of us, you described your relationship in December as toxic, right? A lot of people would probably borrow that word as well because they just feel stuck.
There's something that you want to do or achieve and you cannot figure out why in the world can I not make this happen? And so usually when people get to that spot, I say, okay, this is the time where we need to explore this thing called relationship with money and figure out, you know, what's going on behind the scenes that's stopping your progress towards these goals.
I imagine that a lot of people might be scared of what they would maybe find under the layers they built around their relationships with money. And I'm wondering how you think people can work through that fear that might even turn them off from probing their relationship with money in the first place.
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Chapter 3: How do childhood experiences shape your money beliefs?
Is this coming from something real where maybe there just isn't enough money? And that's bringing me back to this place of just this extreme fear around money. Maybe you grew up where money was really tight. So I think the body gives us so many clues when it comes to money, but we just don't tune into that. We're just purely looking at the numbers piece.
So use your body as an indicator, a moment to pause and say, okay, what's going on and where does this come from?
But I find some people get stuck with sometimes knowing, okay, I'm aware of what is inhibiting me, but they don't know what to do with that. So, okay, I know that I don't think I deserve money. How do you work past that so it translates into changes in your finances?
There's so many different exercises you can use. It depends if you're somebody who loves to journal. I have an exercise called Hey Money, and I literally write money a letter. Sometimes it's a couple of words and it's not a very nice letter. Sometimes it's, oh, this great thing happened.
But the process of doing something like that is helping me move past these places of fear that are stopping my ability to move forward with money. There's also financial therapy. But I think that what we need to do is when we notice... the feeling. We need to acknowledge it, go, okay, it's there. And then we need to think about what action step can I pair with this that might help this?
So if it's a feeling of there's never enough money, maybe I might look at like, okay, have I set up an emergency fund? Am I contributing to my 401k? Like, am I actually taking actions to help counteract this belief that I have?
So you talk in your book about how one of the antidotes of being scared of your money is knowing what you want in life. That resonates with something we talk about a lot on Smart Money, how money is just a tool to get you what you want out of life. But knowing what you want and actually getting there, I think, can be two different things. And you call this in-between space the goal gap.
So how can people bridge this gap and actually get what they want from their money and their lives?
The first pace that you have to start is obviously, what do I want? And I know this feels like a really big question. And some people don't even allow themselves to go there with money because it feels like, oh, this isn't possible. Or I've never seen this happen in my family. How dare I think about building, I don't know, generational wealth or a business that I could sell or...
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Chapter 4: What are somatic responses to financial stress and how to recognize them?
I like the idea of having that weekly money date with yourself where you are just setting aside a quick 15 minute allotment of time. Doing it bit by bit will help you make tremendous progress over a month or a year.
I would say like another piece of that is celebrating small wins. Having a weekly money date is a win. Looking at how you're spending your money is a win. Thinking about your future is a win. But also, for instance, if we're going to pay off debt, let's say every $100 that we pay off, let's go give ourselves a small little reward.
I'm talking about something super tiny, but let's celebrate this along the way because that's an important piece of this too in the building the trust with ourselves and our relationship with money.
That is so key because we know from behavioral psychology that the more you like to do something, the more fun it is for you, the more likely you are to keep doing it. And a lot of what we've been talking about can seem so heavy and fraught and maybe even painful to dig into or frankly even boring just looking at your numbers. People don't like to do that all the time.
So how can you make it something that is actually something you want to engage with, something fun? So building in those rewards, making a little moment to celebrate every time you do make some progress will really help you see these things through over the long term.
So you wrap up your book by talking about how we can keep our money relationships unraveled. If you could give our listeners one piece of advice to keep their dialogue with their money open long term, what would it be?
The important thing to keep your relationship with money unraveled is to keep coming back to what is the story that I learned about money when I was little? How is that influencing the decisions, the behaviors, the actions I'm making now? If you just do that piece, you will be shocked at what you discover and how that can help you move forward with a different story.
I love that. Okay, well, one last thing before we let you go, Shauna. Throughout your book, you have these money, truth or dare prompts for readers, which I found really fun as I was reading your book. I thought about asking you a truth or dare question, but I thought that a dare might be a little hard to do on a podcast. So I want to ask you a money truth.
Shauna, what was the first dollar you ever spent? And what did it teach you?
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Chapter 5: How can you overcome fear and change your money habits?
Ooh. Yeah, I love the truth or dare.
Putting you on the spot here.
I love the truth or dares. That was actually my most fun part to write in this book. The first dollar I ever earned, that actually came from the tooth fairy. I lost my first tooth on a milk dud watching a movie. And I remember waking up in the morning and I was like, oh my gosh, there's money under my pillow.
And I think what I learned from that is that it doesn't have to be as difficult as you might believe. I remember watching my dad kind of struggle with money and I thought, this is crazy. Like I lost a tooth and I got a dollar. Like this doesn't have to be that difficult. Of course it is. And it's been a giant learning process. You had to grow that tooth.
I had to grow that tooth, which I was not accounting for.
Do you remember how you spent that dollar?
You know, there was a kind of like a 7-Eleven-ish type store down the street from my house. I probably went down there and bought some version of an Icy.
So that maybe taught you to enjoy the money that you earn.
Yes. But again, it took me many years to actually cement that lesson.
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Chapter 6: What is a weekly money date and how can it help your finances?
Yeah. Great. Well, Shauna Game, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts with us.
Thanks for having me. We're about to get to this episode's money question segment, where we help a listener on a tight income balance saving and investing.
But before we get into that, listener, I've got a question for you. What is your money question? The financial thing that keeps you up at night or that goal you just can't seem to make progress on?
Maybe you need to buy a new car but aren't sure the best way to pay for it. Or you're finally going to get yourself a high-yield savings account and need help vetting different companies. Or you're trying to break yourself out of a bad financial habit but just can't seem to do it. Whatever your money question, we nerds are here to help.
Leave us a voicemail or text us on the Nerd Hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD.
And a reminder that one of our goals on Smart Money this year is to talk with more of you live on the podcast to help you with your money questions. So if you want to hang with Elizabeth and me for a bit and get some nerdy wisdom, let us know. One more time, leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. Let's get to this episode's money question segment.
That's up next. Stay with us. We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode, we're joined by Katie, a listener with some questions about how to save and invest when money is tight. Katie, welcome to Smart Money.
Hi, thank you for having me.
Katie, I'd love to start by hearing about your financial life generally right now. Where are you feeling good? Where do you think you might have some room to grow?
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Chapter 7: How can celebrating small financial wins improve your money mindset?
Yeah.
So much of my 20s was working like really seasonal, low paying work where I just didn't even have the capacity to like save even remotely. Now that I was like getting a salary, I was feeling really good about saving that.
And so you said you're making an average amount. What does that mean?
When I started my position at the museum about two years ago, I was making like $45,000. And then I, you know, was able to work up and kind of ending. I'm making about $52,000. So I don't spend tons of money. So I'm able to save a little bit, able to treat myself to some things here and there. But, you know, I'm not taking in a bunch.
So you said that in your 20s, you weren't super mindful about your finances. How old are you now?
I'm 34. I'm about to be 35.
So now you're thinking clock is ticking, better get serious.
Oh, yeah. I really was working like seasonal jobs, low pay, and I was moving a lot. I kind of blame it on that. Like I wasn't in a position where I could save anything, but I can't help but think like I'm very late to the game in terms of trying to save money, trying to put money into investments, money into retirement. and kind of navigating that whole financial world.
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Chapter 8: What practical advice does Shauna give to keep your money relationship healthy?
Katie, I understand and empathize with that feeling of starting late because I also started late. So you're not alone in that. I started saving for retirement, I think around 33 or 34. Oh, that makes me feel better.
Your experience is not uncommon, Katie. You mentioned that you have been saving, doing direct deposits, which we call paying yourself first. It's a really smart way to save money. How much do you have in savings?
Most of it's in a high yield savings account. And that's about $9,000 to $10,000, somewhere in between there. And then I have a little bit of money in my regular bank savings because that's just where the direct deposit goes. And then I have just whatever is left in my paychecks goes right into my checking account. And I use that to pay off any credit card debts or things like that.
So for that $9,000 to $10,000, do you know how many months of expenses that would cover? I'm thinking about your emergency fund here.
No, and that's something that I've really been trying to figure out. What would that emergency fund need to be? I know if I get hurt, I need something, some money for that, but costs out the wazoo probably.
Well, think about what expenses you might need to cover if you were unable to work. So in an ideal world, you would have between three to six months of what we call a bare bones budget covered in your emergency fund. So that would be things like housing, any medicine that you need, need regularly. utilities, groceries.
You're not going to be going out to eat a lot if you don't have money coming in. So what is the bare minimum you would need to get by for a few months? That's really how you can help determine what your emergency fund amount might need to be.
Katie, you wrote to us and you mentioned that you have a big life change coming up. So can you talk to us about that change and then maybe how that might also change your expenses and how much you need saved for your emergency fund?
I am leaving the job that I have right now at the museum, which is in Maine, and I'm moving in with my partner in New Hampshire. We live in a mountain town where there's not a lot of... So a lot of the jobs are within the trades, within the service industry, kind of hospitality, the tourism industry, which is not really what my background is in. My background is in science and informal education.
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Chapter 9: How can someone on a tight income build savings and invest effectively?
And I've definitely started looking into that budget framework. That was not anything that I've ever like heard of or considered because, you know, financial literacy was not necessarily part of my informal, informal education growing up. So this is a lot of like self-discovery recently. So I've been looking more into kind of that framework, you know, and I feel like I could fit within the 1520.
But in terms of the saving aspect, I think that's where I'm most like, And I'm like, how am I going to handle this in terms of if I'm not bringing in a lot of money, how do I break down money to go into a retirement versus money going into just my savings, cushioning either my emergency fund or anything like that? I don't have a lot left over to actually play with.
Is it worth putting $25 in my retirement or $50 in my savings?
All really good questions, Katie. And I will say before we go into that, it is worth it because compound interest is working in your favor. And that's essentially when your money makes money, assuming that you're investing it. So investing $25 over investing $0, I think is definitely worthwhile. I do want to rewind and ask you, how much do you have saved for retirement already?
And how much are you saving on a regular basis?
I have just under $7,000 in my retirement. I kind of set my limit, like how much I was putting in the retirement when I started at the much lower pay scale. So I was only putting in, I think like 2.5% of my income. And I didn't scale that up as my pay increased. But then I also have just over $1,000 in another retirement account from a job that I had before this museum.
And I thought I had rolled it over into this retirement account, but I just found out I didn't. So I have these two retirement accounts with, I would say, just under $9,000 combined.
And then why are you thinking about rolling your money from a 403B into an IRA?
I guess this is where I have a lot of questions about what is that correct thing to do? Because if I only have roughly $9,000 in an account, my understanding is that I can't contribute to a 403B unless I'm in one of the institutions that I can't just contribute to it on my own. So the plant nursery doesn't have retirement.
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