Lex Fridman Podcast
#406 – Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D’Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness
Sun, 24 Dec 2023
Teddy Atlas is boxing trainer to 18 world champions, ESPN boxing commentator, and host of podcast THE FIGHT with Teddy Atlas. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - Babbel: https://babbel.com/lexpod and use code Lexpod to get 55% off - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free - InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/teddy-atlas-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Teddy's Twitter: https://twitter.com/TeddyAtlasReal Teddy's Instagram: https://instagram.com/teddy_atlas Teddy's Website: https://teddyatlas.com/ Atlas: From the Streets to the Ring (book): https://amzn.to/48uIQBj Teddy's Podcast: https://youtube.com/THEFIGHTwithTeddyAtlas Dr. Theodore Atlas Foundation: http://dratlasfoundation.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (09:47) - Lessons from father (19:53) - Scar story (40:31) - Cus D'Amato (50:43) - Mike Tyson (2:08:39) - Forgiveness
The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary and at times controversial boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing.
Styles, matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like Mike Tyson, Michael Moore, Klitschko, Usyk, Povetkin, Lomachenko, Triple G, Canelo, Muhammad Ali, Shigure Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Floyd, and on and on and on. Like I said, I came ready to talk boxing. But I stayed for something even bigger. The Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas, Gus D'Amato, and Mike Tyson.
It's a story about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness. It's a story where nobody is perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early 80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor, Customato, in training the young boxing protege, now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson.
Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over 40 times, and at age 15, he was sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a .38 caliber handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again or he would kill him if he did. For this, Custom Auto kicked Teddy out. Why? Well, that's complicated.
In part, I think, to help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who Cuss legally adopted, would be taken away by the state. And with him, the dream of developing one of the greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to listen to this conversation. The things said and the things left unsaid.
The pain in Teddy's voice. The contradictions of love and anger that permeate his stories and his philosophy on life. Like I said, I came to talk about boxing and stayed to talk about life. This conversation will stay with me for a long time. The people close to you, the people you trust, the people you love are everything. And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them.
Forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays, everyone. I love you all. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Notion for team collaboration, Babbel for learning new languages, ExpressVPN for privacy and security on the internet webs, and Insight Tracker for...
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Anyway, you can get special savings for a limited time when you go to insidetracker.com slash Lex. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas. You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned about life from your father?
When you ask that question, you know, I remember Customato when I was with him up in Gatsby for all those years. He used to say to me, Teddy, you learned through osmosis. I believe there's truth to that if I know what osmosis is. Yeah. But it sounds good.
Yeah, yeah.
But I learned through osmosis with my father. He wasn't a big talker. He was a doer. And when you're around someone who lives a certain kind of life and does certain things, it penetrates. He was a doctor. I'm going to sound like an idiot right now because I'm being a son. But he was the greatest diagnostic doctor ever. Yeah. I mean, if I say I ever knew, what's that mean?
Yeah.
You know what I mean? Are you a doctor? You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? But other people have told me this. Yeah.
Like, just legendary stories. He would do house calls and help people. And like you said, a lot of people have spoken about the impact he's had on their life.
He built two hospitals. And he built a hospital before the Verrazano Bridge in New York. connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he built it so people could get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it, period. And everybody looked at him as eccentric. Yeah, nice. Yeah, because... He would literally sneak patients, not sneak them in. He was Dr. Atlas.
He could do what he wanted to a certain extent. But he would bring patients in without administering, putting through administration. So there was no charge because they didn't have anything. They were street people. I remember being, my only way to be with my father was to go on house calls. Yeah. or to go to the office. And so I went on House Calls.
And he did House Calls, by the way, till he was 80, and $3. I mean, it was better than McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, the deal. $3, and you got medicine, you got everything.
And, but he used to, right around the holidays, there was just certain things that I didn't understand, but I understood later, where we would just drive certain areas, and he just, all of a sudden, opened his door, and he would pick up these homeless, and, you know. Help him. I'm 10 years old. Yeah. You know, move over. Move over, you know. Mm-hmm.
It's just you, him, and a homeless guy.
A couple. Yeah, a couple. Yeah, whatever he can fit in. Three, four, you know, whatever it was. That's a big heart. And then he took him to the hospital, dropped him off. So, you know, I would ask questions after it was all over with. I'd say, Dad, they're sick. He goes, well, not in a way. Well, you put him in the hospital. So he said, yeah, and he tried to explain things to me.
He didn't talk much unless you asked him something. And that kind of works. And don't talk unless someone asks you something. And he explained to me that, he said, I said, well, why are you putting him in the hospital? And of course the sickness was the alcoholics, but why are you putting him? It wasn't an alcohol rehab. And it wasn't for the purpose to dry out. He wasn't trying to cure them.
Let's put that before we anointed him for sainthood by Teddy Atlas. So I was like, we finally get to the point. Why are you putting him in there? Well, because it's the holidays. All right, why you put them in there? Well, the holidays are good for certain people and bad for others. And it was always before the holidays. It was before Christmas or whatever. And New Year's, whatever.
And so I said, why? And he said, because they remind people, certain people, of what they don't have. that other people enjoy the holidays because of what they have. Family, you know, whatever. And it reminds them that mine is that. That's pretty profound. Yeah, and then... I don't remember because he didn't use the word suicide, but I got it.
He basically, I forget how he said it, but I just got it. I don't know how he got it. I don't know. But I just got it like, so they don't hurt themselves. That's what came across. In every way. I don't think he ever articulated, ever verbalized that, but yeah, they don't hurt themselves. And how does that work? Well, just basically, they're going to be around people. They're not going to be alone.
They're going to be around people. They're going to get fed. They're going to be warm. right? And it's going to be for three days, two, three days, whatever. And it's basically, it's, it's a bridge. So the funny thing is a 10 year old, I, I wanted to, I want to be connected to him. So I, I, I enlisted myself in the job when, when, when he used to drop them off, he would take them, get them in.
Right. And, um, And then the thing that I know, again, he didn't say nothing, but you notice things. And if you care enough. You don't notice nothing if you don't care. But if you care, if it's important, you notice. And this guy was important to me. I didn't know what a hero was. No clue. I loved Mickey Mantle. I loved Willie Mays. I loved Muhammad Ali. I...
I never, ever connected in my mind as heroes. Never.
My father, I didn't connect it that way, but he- Looking back now- Looking back, he was my first connection to a hero. Did the two of you ever talk about how much you love each other?
The word love? One thing that was not allowed. The greatest memory I have my father showing me love was we were down in Florida at an airport and we were, I was born in Miami, don't ask me, I was passing through. And the rest of my family's born in New York, so I was supposed to go back home, right? And I wanted to stay with my mother for whatever reason.
And so he, you know, he, of course, conceded to it. And he's, okay, you know, whatever. And very quiet. And this is a man who never showed emotion to anyone. I mean, for the most, you know, really. All of a sudden, he just turned and kissed me on the forehead and left. And I was like, that's different.
You still remember that?
Yeah, like that's weird.
You lost them 30 years ago. How did that change you?
It made me realize that some of the deals I used to make for God weren't realistic. When I was a kid, I used to make deals for God. Let me die before my father.
And then you get older, you have kids, you're blessed.
Why did you make that deal? You know what I mean?
Thank you for not taking me up on it.
Yeah. Thanks.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. You miss him? I miss him in moments when I'd like to know what to do. And I remember when I would drive with him on the house calls, he didn't listen to music. He was a guy, he read books to his, when he got older, he read books till blood vessels broke in his eyes. He only read nonfiction books. Science, he loved science. Wars, generals.
I mean, I cheated on a couple book reports because I didn't do the reading of the book the night before. I had a freaking book report to put in that. I got a book report to do on the War of Stalingrad. Really, the War of Stalingrad. And who the freak could... Tell you where you get an A. I got an A. Yeah. I just wrote what he told me. He told me generals. He told me times. He told me strategy.
He told me about the winter that came and destroyed the Germans. Yeah. And the Soviets were tougher. You got an A. And the Soviets were tougher than the Germans. And the Germans picked on the wrong opponent.
Yeah.
I was already in the boxing business. I didn't even know it. I didn't even know it. Matchmaking, very important. They mismatched. They made a mistake with picking the opponent. And so when we would be driving in the car, my father would be in a trance. And Dad... He wasn't ignoring me at all. He was just with his thoughts. He was wherever. He wasn't even hearing the radio no more.
I always wondered where he was. I did. So I asked him one day and just, so we're driving. I said, I want to know. So I said, dad, what do you think when you're basically in this place that I know you're somewhere? What do you, what do you, where are you? What do you see? I actually said, what do you see? And he said to me, I see what could be. I see what could be. And I'm like, oh, All right.
I got to ask you, when did you discover boxing? When did you first fall in love with boxing?
When it saved me.
How did it save you?
I was a stupid, violent kid that was angry. Not exactly know why I was angry. I'd fit in real good in today's society because there's a lot of angry kids out there that I don't think they know why they're angry. I was just out there getting in fights, and I got this stupid thing from that.
Can you tell the story of how you got that?
I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things. I hurt people, some people physically, but I hurt my family. You know, that's BS. You only hurt yourself. That's a good way of alibying it. But at some point, the truth usually finds its way. I'd like it to look like I was just hurting myself, but it wasn't, obviously.
So I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in the neighborhood I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood where a father was a doctor. And I walked down the street. The funny thing was down the hill was a very tough neighborhood called Stapleton. And most of the people down there on the corners wished they could get up the hill. And I wished I could get down the hill.
So I went down the hill. And I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And I gravitated to that because I figured out later a little bit, but I wanted family. We were disjointed family. My father was a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor. I think when you're great at something, you sacrifice something too. When you're really great at something.
So great that maybe God made you great and you're too great for your own good. And I don't know, it took me to these stupid, dangerous places. Dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people too, because I got to the point where I was doing robberies on the street. I was fighting everybody. And you know what the most dangerous part about it was?
And I came to this realization on my own, all by myself. I figured out, I was really, as they, you know, these kids from the project, some of them, they got nothing. First of all, I learned, you don't have to be poor to be poor. You don't have to be deprived of certain things to be deprived. Because at least to think you're deprived.
And I was poor in a way that I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have, him. So here I am where... I'm out there doing these things, and what made me more, I was more dangerous than some of these psychopaths. Well, I was a psychopath too, I guess, the way I was behaving. But some of these psychopaths that really had nothing, you know, really would, you know, they obviously would kill you.
I was dangerous almost in the same way, but for a different reason. I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out. because I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right. Because it was gonna get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you're a scientist, you couldn't figure this one out.
Because all the people that had him were injured people, fractured people, screwed up people in some ways, but hurt, damaged people. So if I get damaged, I'll get them. So I was on a crusade, really, a righteous crusade where I thought it was okay. I had permission. I had permission to do these terrible things, quite frankly, and to fight everyone.
And then it came almost to a crash, doing all that, winding up in Rikers Island like an idiot. Not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he was a great doctor, and he's got to see his son and hear about, you know what I mean? Like, God.
I was out on that day, you know, with the guys that I grew up with now, you know, the guys from the projects, as I described, and I was with one of them who, he's dead now. So I was with him, and we were...
we, we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grew up, that I hung out in, and they, and he grew up in, Billy, he came from the, from the project, and we got into a thing where we cut, somebody cuts off, we cut them off, you know, jumped out to fight, and, um, you know, it turned out there's like five or six of them, and two of us, and, um,
You know, we fought, you know, right on the side, right there. Only about a block from where I used to hang out. And maybe a block and a half. And right in front of like a Spanish bodega. And it really does happen in slow motion. I actually saw the guy. I was fighting the guys that I had to fight. And then all of a sudden, I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit.
And, um, I really, I noticed the guy go into his pocket and, um, I knew why he was going in his pocket, you know? And, um, When he came out of his pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because in the neighborhood, guys used to hang out. They were into this, you know, they get into fads like right on the streets.
And they went to, at that time, they went to this cheap knife, but it was, they thought it was, well, we thought it was cool. It was a 007. And the cool thing, whatever, was that you could flick it. You can learn, and I learned how to flick, you know, but I never carried a knife. But when my friends would have it, I would just, you learn how you could flick it open.
Not a switchblade, but flick it with your wrist. And I was like, here I am in the middle of this freaking fight, and all of a sudden, oh, it's a 007, you know? And so I'm like, you got to make a decision, you know? And... I got a split. I could either not do nothing, which didn't seem like a great option. I couldn't run away. Why not?
Because you gotta live with yourself afterwards and that's more difficult to live with than whatever it is at that second because that don't go away.
You couldn't live with yourself running away.
It just don't go away. That thing, nothing to do with being brave.
Yeah.
Nothing to do with being brave, really. It's got to do with just common sense in life. For me, whatever you deal with, it's done. Okay, deal with it. Go to bed, whatever. But you do that, that other thing, you're gone. That never ends. This thing ends.
The memory of you being, let's say, a coward in that moment, that never ends.
The only thing I had at that point in my life, in my stupid mind, was a reputation that I would stand up to certain things. That was like, and that for me was worth something, whatever, because I didn't feel any worth to anything else. That was the only thing I felt a connection of worth to, so. So stood your ground. So I say, no, I made a decision. Yes.
I stood my ground, but I actually, things do slow down. They do. And I actually said, it's a double seven. He's got to flick it. But he's got to flick it. I get a split second. Either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever, or I get to him before he gets it flicked. I went to get to him before he got flicked. And just as I... Got close to him. I did him a favor.
I walked right into a counterpunch. Because I cooperated with him. I went right to him. And just as I, he practiced more than I did with the 007, apparently. Because he was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And anyway. Anyway.
What did you think? What did you think that happened? It was all slow motion. Did you think he might die?
Yeah. Well, not immediately. It took me a minute. I'm a slow learner. I put my hand up. Right, wouldn't you? I guess so. And it went into my face. And that was it. It was gooey. It was warm and gooey. And I was like... I don't know what this means, but I don't want to know. But I think I know.
Did you think about your dad in that moment?
No, you know what I thought about him was... You don't know who anyone is until they're tested. And I learned that. Cus used to tell me, but I learned it. He used to say, I remember one time Cus, I was a 17, 18-year-old kid up there, and, you know, thought I was whatever I thought I was.
and he said you got a lot of friends and um i said yeah because you know i was on the street hanging out with 100 kids at night sometimes on the street corner so i was like i don't know too many people that hung out with 100 kids on the street on the corner on a friday saturday night and um i was like yeah i got a lot of friends he goes really yeah really he said um
How about if I told you you might not have any? Most likely you don't have any. And he goes, and then he just started this thing. He said, everyone's got to be tested. You, me, everyone. Because you don't know about nobody until they're tested. He goes, you know nothing. He goes, you know nothing until you know, until something happens to test if they were really a friend.
And then he told me this story about a guy, a guy came to him and he was upset. What are you upset about? He goes, I'm upset because I just lost a friend. You know, after 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more. So Coach looks at him and he goes, Let me ask you a question. What made you think you were ever friends with him? Now the guy gets insulted. He goes, did you hear me?
He goes, I just told you, 20 years I've been friends with this guy. Why would you say that to me? He said, well, I'll say it again. What makes you think he was your friend? He goes...
Whatever happened in the 20 years other than chasing girls, because I figured that one out fast, chasing girls and drinking together and whatever else you're doing out on the street, whatever gave you the inclination that, He was a friend. He goes, when did he risk himself to be your friend? When was it dangerous to be your friend? When was it uncomfortable to be your friend?
And you know what the guy said? You can figure it out. You're a scientist. He said, today. And today came for me. And today, today, today, today kept coming for me. Today. And that day, my friend Billy had turned out while I was fighting these, whatever, five, six guys. And where was Billy? He was on the roof. He was on the roof. He was on the roof. He was my best friend. And...
So anyway, they take me to the hospital, and here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did do for me when he got off the roof, thank God, he dragged me into this bodega, laid me on the floor, and started putting towels And the towels, I vaguely remember this, they filled up with blood. I mean, completely drenched, like you put them under a shower.
And I heard the bodega owners screaming, screaming, like, whatever. And everyone's screaming and there's chaos. And I'm like, I don't know, I'm calm. Weird. I'm like real calm. And I'm just in this place Everything's calm. And all of a sudden, I hear Billy, he's screaming, call the ambulance, call the ambulance. And nobody's doing nothing. Everyone's frozen. I'm starting to understand already.
People get frozen in situations. People, the fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. It's just... paralyzes people. And I was going into a fear business. I was learning. I was learning. I was getting a learning, early PhD.
And he... Fear. Yeah.
And all of a sudden, genius. Billy, genius. Really. Street kid. He jumps up on a freaking counter, jumps over the counter, grabs the phone, calls 911, says a cop's been shot. And forget about it. It was crazy. All I remember after that, I'll tell you a couple of things I remember. Lights being put onto a stretcher, bounced around, rushed. I felt everyone's anxiety, except mine.
I had none, but I felt everyone's anxiety, everyone's fear. It was all around me. It was like, oh, this is interesting. I know that's stupid, but like, well, this is interesting.
You really have an eye for fear. That's fascinating. You're really studying it.
Well, I had no choice. I got introduced in a crash course. And they put me in the ambulance. And this is what I remember, to your point. I'm sorry it took so long to get to it. I am. Although I'll probably do it again before this conversation's over. It's all about the journey. Yeah. We'll get there. We'll get there, pops. So I hear the cops say, we might lose him. And I'm like laughing to myself.
I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne. John Wayne would have laughed. But I'm like, lose. You guys are stupid. You know, I didn't say that. But I'm like, lose me. My father's the greatest doctor in the freaking world. There's nothing to worry about. You people are all uptight and whacked out here with fear. Yeah. And there's nothing to worry about. Dr. Atlas is my father.
So anyway, so they're taking me to the, and they said, we don't have time. I hear a couple of things I remember. Don't have time. Take them to, and they take me to U.S. Public Health Hospital. Marina Hospital was called at the time, but U.S. Public Health. And it's in Stapleton, so it's close. Thank God.
So they're taking me, and I hear them on the radio, you know, saying this stuff about we got to move, we got to move. And I start talking. And they're telling me don't talk. But I like to talk a lot, you know? And so, again, fear. There's no fear when the fear's been removed. It's the only time you're really free in life. And I know that sounds absurd, but really, it is.
It's the only time you're really free in life. I was... Close to death? When you're devoid of things that normally hold you back, that normally influence you in ways that are... Not of the influence that always positive influence, where you're in a pure place, where you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from fear, from anxiety, from joy. Joy can screw you up.
And you're free from all these things. And I'm in this place.
In the back of an ambulance, you're free.
Yeah, I'm like, I said, just get me Dr. Atlas. And they say, we don't have time. No, no, no, no, no. You don't, you have to get Dr. Atlas. You have to get him. This was the, damn it, this was the, you know what I mean? I finally freaking hit the number and I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden, I'm out. How many stitches?
Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside, or whatever it was. That's a lot. And look, I have to, I have to, After 50, the number doesn't matter no more. I don't know, whatever, 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever. So I was fortunate. I was fortunate. And, of course, I was fortunate they told me afterwards I'd missed my jug literally by like a centimeter. I mean, whatever.
And so then we wouldn't be having this conversation, obviously. i'm glad you made it yeah i'm kind of glad too and and it just missed my eye which thank god it's bad enough i have a scar match me with a patch i mean i mean it's enough that i got this freaking thing and um and look it goes all the way you know i mean it's you know it's it's pretty long and um
I don't know, I was out and then somehow I sensed like they had the curtain closed, you know? And it's amazing how vivid this is. And the curtain's closed and I see a shadow. I felt a presence. I did. And I felt him. He's a powerful guy. And I felt him. And I just see like a shadow, you know? And all of a sudden the curtain gets pushed back. And I can't really see, it's dark and I'm out of it.
But not completely out of it. And pushes the curtain back, comes in, and his hand, even though it's all bandaged, you know, whatever, but his hand surveys It felt safe. It felt warm and safe. I was happy. He got there.
Did he say something?
Yeah. Remember, I gave you a little bit of introduction to my father. You know him now a little bit, right? Yeah.
What did he say about the job?
He just said, this is what he said. I remember to this day what he said. That I do remember. I don't know if it was six or five people, but this I do remember.
Yeah.
He said, they did a good job. You're going to have a scar the rest of your life. And he left.
Oh, man. They did a good job. You mentioned custom model, legendary trainer, and you also mentioned it turned out he really cared about you. In the book you write about a testimony he gave. I was hoping I could read it, because it speaks to your character, it speaks to his, it's just powerful.
The testimony goes, Your Honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I've spent my whole life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson and light heavyweight champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character.
I know things about Teddy Atlas this court doesn't know. Things you won't find on his arrest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities are rare and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes. We've all made mistakes. But I've come to know this boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone who could help a lot of people.
Please don't take this young boy's future away. He could be someone special. Let's not lose him. Please. Those are powerful words from a powerful man. What have you learned about life from Mr. Customato?
He gave me a quote and he drilled into my head. I became his guy, you know. He loved me. I loved him. He said to me, Teddy, no matter what a man says, it's what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. That's what I learned from Cuss. The rest of it is BS. And, um,
A lot of people say things. You just have to give them a minute to let them show you eventually what they really meant by it.
I also learned from him that everyone's afraid.
Because it's a way of saying, another great saying, you'll get a kick out of this. Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where fear is actually necessary to survive the situation, anyone who says that they're not afraid, they're one of two things. They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor, find out what the freak's wrong with them. He was right about that.
You know, we live in a taboo society where that word to a certain extent is taboo because it invokes weakness. You know, we are just layers of what we saw and learned since we were kids. We all are. We're products of those layers. I learned that on my own through some help. At the end of the day, you know, fear... People will find their way of avoiding that term. So they use the word anxiety.
They use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension, you know, a million different words. I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. And fear... Fear causes a lot of things in life. It causes a lot of problems. And it also solves a lot of problems. Without it, we couldn't be great.
If we are great, if we ever have a chance to be great, or at least to aspire to be great.
How does fear connect to greatness? That's a profound statement. Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great.
Yeah, you couldn't be great without fear because fear allows you to be great. Brave. The most important word for me in this whole conversation, right, neighborhood, would be selfishness. It allows you to be, for a moment, less selfish. One of the things I learned, I guess, partly on my own, everyone thinks my greatest teacher was Cuss. He was a great teacher, mentor.
My greatest teacher was my father, the one who never talked. And I realized one of the things to be better towards great is if you can submit less than we submit. See, one of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things I was always quitting in my business, it's kind of not a good thing.
Every business, I think. Yours is just more clear.
Yeah, it hurts more.
In the moment, at least.
Yeah, in the moment. You're right, 100%, because something's hurt for a long time afterwards. And something like regret. Regret is the worst thing in the world because it's a solitary sentence.
That's a powerful phrase. Regret is a solitary sentence. Oh, boy. You're full of good lines.
You know, it wasn't easy to accumulate them. It was a little bit hurtful. But so submit less because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submit or compromise ourselves less.
we'll get to a better place you know again one of the one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you that wind up hurting you in life and have hurt me in life uh one of those boogeyman words is the word of convenience that's attached to everything you know people people
disappoint you not because they want to disappoint you or let you down or betray you because they want to betray you. They do it because it's more convenient to do than the other thing. An old man once told me, he said to me, I was trying to rationalize something. I was trying to make an excuse for something. I was trying to make myself better than I was. I was trying to say it was okay.
And he just looked at me, and he liked me. And he said, Teddy, there ain't no such thing as being a little pregnant. Because either you're pregnant or you're not pregnant. Either you're real or you're not real. Either you're truthful or you're not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not tough. Either you're committed or you're not committed. Either you're in or you're out.
That applies to a lot of things, including loyalty.
That's quite a statement. But the lifeblood of humanity for me is loyalty. It's what goes through the veins. Everything has to have some veins in some form. And if humanity has veins, what runs through the veins of humanity instead of blood to keep it alive is loyalty. Without loyalty, we're dead. We're vessels. I never understood what a ghost ship was. You know what?
As I got older, I know what a ghost ship is. It's people. It's people that are empty. They got no loyalty. Therefore, they got no humanity. Therefore, they got nothing. Therefore, freak them. Freak them. And you know why they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why? Because it's hard to be loyal. It's actually hard. Mm-hmm. I'll be a son of a gun.
You're telling me, yeah, it sounds great. Give it to me. Give it to me. Paint me with it. It's great. Yeah, I'm loyal. Yeah, this is good. I'm ready. I'm on that team. I'm ready. Put me in, coach. I'm ready. Okay, now you're going to have to get hurt here. What do you mean get hurt? Oh, it's going to be painful.
I mean, to be loyal, you know, you're going to be in danger because the person that you committed your loyalty to for a reason, because obviously you did something in your life, whatever, whatever, you're actually going to get hurt to be loyal to them. You're actually going to—hold on a minute. Wait, hold on a minute, Coach. Hold on. Call time out of here. Let me think about this, coach.
I might need more practice. I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Give me a little more practice, coach. And it hurts to be loyal. It freaking hurts. But without loyalty, we're... We're ghost ships. We got no strength. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got nothing.
I agree with you in a deep, fundamental sense, but there's pain that comes with that. I have to ask you to introspect on this part of your life because of your value for loyalty. As people know, you and Custom Auto trained young Mike Tyson. And the interaction there between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways.
Given your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of what led up to this? And maybe the pain you felt from that?
I guess it was the second time in my life I felt betrayed. The first time was when I was whatever, young, 17, and I got arrested. I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever, supposedly. And the detectives separated us. That's what they do. And they asked me who did whatever, who's gunned, this, that, all that, the particulars of obviously what we did. And it was me.
And they said, you sure? You don't want to change that? Because your friends changed it. And these cops, they were nasty, but they were cops. The way, you know, you're going to wind up in Rikers and they're going to be doing this to you. And I won't even say the things because then why say them, you know? Figure it out.
But, you know, they're trying to get what they're trying to get and, you know, you want to change it? And no. No. But I felt very betrayed, you know? And especially when I was standing in the cell at Rikers looking at the airplanes leave LaGuardia Airport and then hoping I was on one. I was making like a deal with God that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I'd take a shot.
Was part of you proud that you didn't give up your friends?
No, because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that... Rules are rules.
You're just loyal, and that's it.
I didn't even know there was an option. I didn't think... I know the cops said you could do this, but there was no option. My father never had an option, but the betrayal, the private betrayal was like... And so when cuz... We were partners. Me and Cuz. Cuz was retired. This stupid kid goes up there and all of a sudden I start training fighters. First I want the gloves. Cuz put me in the gloves.
I want the gloves that I had injury, whatever. But bottom line is I still want to fight. I want to turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan. And... And Cuz had a different plan. Cuz was like, you can't. And he had it set up a little bit, whatever, without getting into it. Hey, he did me a favor. And I'd like to think he knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was.
He was doing himself a little bit of one too. But he was doing it for the greater cause because he believed
in this thing of boxing he he believed that it changed lives he believed that it was worthwhile he believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook the big picture of boxing yeah he believed in it yeah he believed that to be a champion you had to be special you had to be smart you had to have character you had that you had to be a better person and that you couldn't make a champion if you didn't make him a better person first
And that this could strengthen people. The sport could strengthen people in those ways. So he was married to it. And he was old and he needed, there was no one in the gym. It was empty. And it was above a police station, which was crazy. And he needed an heir to the throne. He needed to pass it on to someone. And he saw something.
And all of a sudden, he saw that my career as a boxer was less important than having me become his air to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy to continue, that we could do a lot more for him and for everyone, not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like to keep it going. Like it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And his cousin was afraid that it would die with him.
And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he saw me as, you know, the little bit of, you know, the seed to plant for more people. things to grow before that plant died. And so he, all of a sudden he says, you can't fight. And I had people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight. And I could. But I couldn't. Because I'd be disloyal.
Loyalty is everything. Yeah, so I couldn't leave cuz. And he kind of knew that. And so, you know, I couldn't leave him. And he said, you have an ability to teach. He said, knowledge means nothing. He said, see these Britannica? He had Britannica Encyclopedia, the whole set in our library. He said, you see these? Yeah, I see them. All the knowledge of the world, whatever, is in these. All right?
Means nothing if you don't have somebody to convey it to people. Otherwise, it just sits on a bookshelf and looks good. He goes, you have the ability to convey knowledge to people. You're a teacher. You were born to be a teacher. You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter because you'd only take care of one person.
You could take care of all kinds of people, and you could do this, and you could do that, and you could do this. So we go on this venture. It took a minute because I didn't believe him at first. But finally, I am. I'm there. I'm training fighters. And then he gets me to buy in. And I was a teacher and I start teaching these kids and there's no one in the gym that's dead.
And all of a sudden there's 10 kids, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, Catskill Boxing Club, which was never there. Now it's there. And I'm training fighters. I'm taking them down to South Bronx to get experience. One of his former fighters, Nelson Cuevas, down to South Bronx. I'm taking them down there to get smokers, to get fights when they're ready. I'm wearing out dungarees.
I'm getting holes in my dungarees. I was fashionable before it was fashionable to have holes in my dungarees. I could have made a lot of money with that. Because I was on my knees with these little kids, 9 years old, 10 years old, 8 years old, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. All these kids, and I'm teaching them, and I'm building a gym. And cuz only came once a week because he was semi-retired.
And when he would come once a week, he knew. He couldn't give me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise. And he said, look what Atlas is doing. He's creating champions. And I was like, whoa, yeah. Wow, I'm doing good. And then all of a sudden, after four years of that, because I was up there seven years, eight years, eight years,
after about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that they get this kid in prison and try on prison, uh, from one of the guys that knew Cuss, Matt Baranski, uh, and, and there's a state, there's a correctional officer named Bobby Stewart who used a box and Cuss had helped him out a little bit, little bit. And, um,
And they knew we had this gym now that was really starting to become something because we were winning tournaments and everything else. They're going, we got this kid, Mike Tyson. He's 12 years old. He's 190 pounds. He's a mess. But Bobby Stewart got involved with him, the former fighter, and he's taken a liking to it.
And now where he didn't behave at all and he didn't listen to anyone, now he's listening. because Bobby's got a carrot and the carrot is his teacher boxing and now he's at the point now where we want you to take a look, you and Teddy. All right, bring him down.
What did you think when you first saw Mike Tyson?
Well, I want to see his birth certificate because he's 190 pounds, 12 years old, and all solid. You know, really? But yeah. Just physically, just as a physical specimen. Big guy. Yeah, and listen. Coach was right, I was a teacher. He was right. And he was testing me even that day. He said, what do you think? So I said, well, we ain't gonna know nothing in the bag. Who the frick cares about that?
He knocked the bag down. We gotta put him in. We got no one to put him in that way. They didn't have anyone that way. We gotta test him. Everyone's gotta be tested.
and so you gotta put him in, responsibly, but let's put him in, just responsible, but let's put him in with Bobby Stewart, former pro fighter, had 14 pro fights, smaller than Tyson, when he was fighting, he was 175, but still, he's 28 years old, Tyson's 12, come on, and he'll work with him, right? So we do, we put him in.
Tyson, he recognized the moment, he understood this was an audition, this was a chance, You know, this was that TV show, Change Your Life. And he understood that if he passed the audition, he could possibly change his life. He wasn't sure what. How could he be sure what exactly? But it was better than what he had. And so he was on audition. So he wanted, he innately understood what we wanted.
would wanna see, ferociousness, toughness, character, desire, and of course, ability. Well, we saw the ability, power, speed, but it was unbridled, it was untaught, it was raw. He didn't know really much at all, but we saw that. But he wanted to show more. He knew that wasn't enough. Again, innate intelligence. He had to show desire. He had to show toughness. And so I was being responsible.
After two rounds, that's enough. Normally, I don't put a guy into boxing until maybe four months, five months, six months, eight months, ten months. It depends what it takes to learn on the floor before it's responsible to put him in the ring to actually take on incoming real live shells instead of blanks. And... So normally I wouldn't have him in.
And I knew after today, he wouldn't be in the ring again if I trained him. I would teach him first, and then he'd get back in in a few months. But for this day, it was the only way it's kind of like, I used to make this analogy and Cuss loved it. He said, what's training a fighter? What do you look for training a fighter, Teddy? You know, he asked me this ridiculous question just to test me.
And I say, it's like going to Macy's. He loved it. I said, it's like going to Macy's window. He goes, what do you mean, Macy's window? You know, cuz was like, boom, boom, boom. So what do you mean Macy's window? Oh, you go to Macy's window and they get the window with everything you want to see. Everything in there. And it looks great. Everything. And yeah. And then what?
Well, then you ask what's in the warehouse and they tell you nothing. And cuz says, that's it. That's a trainer. And I wanted to see what was in the warehouse. Because I saw what was in Macy's window. I saw the power. I saw the speed. So he goes two rounds, and he gets a bloody nose. Here's the weird thing. Not weird. Very telling. We knew what we were doing.
Not bragging, but we knew what we were doing. Because he got a bloody nose because he got hit. After that bloody, he never got another bloody nose. You know why? He didn't get hit. Because he learned. He was still strong, but he was smarter now. Anyway, he goes two rounds, and I saw, and I'm being responsible, because if he goes more, it's not responsible. I saw what I needed to see.
I saw speed, I saw power, I saw athleticism. And I saw, I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. I'm just telling you. I thought he was lying, trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling tough. It didn't matter. Cuz questioned me on it afterwards. What did you see? And when I said, he goes, young master. You know, again, he wasn't paying me money.
So he had to give me something, right? And that was better than, that was currency. Young master. I'm the young master? Whoa. Young master, you know what I mean? I felt like that guy Kung Fu, you know? Like in the movie, like Kung Fu. Grasshopper, when you're ready, when you can take this out of my hand, you can leave. That's powerful. Yeah, it was. It worked. Cuz knew how to work me. And he did.
And it worked. And so, but you know what? I didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit.
Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and impacted a lot of people.
Yeah, because he got the job done, but he did it his way. And he did it for a myriad of reasons. But at the end of the day, it was all good. And... I just had to understand that eventually later on.
But... And you do the same. You do things your way and carry some of him in you, some of your father in you.
Yeah. That day, you know, that day was funny because when Custer... What did you see, Teddy, with him? After two rounds, I got up with a ring. I knew I was going to train him. Obviously, we weren't going to say no. And he still had about four months to serve and we were going to work it out.
Yeah.
And... When I got up on a ring apron, that's my gym. I'm the boss. You know, people later on in life call me a dictator. You know what they said? Yeah, you're right. I didn't deny. People thought, you mean I'm right? Yeah, I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss. I'm in charge. You wouldn't be here if I wasn't. What the frick you need me for if I'm not freaking in charge, you idiot?
Yeah, yeah, damn right. Well, what do you think? It's a shared responsibility? No, it's my responsibility. That's why you're here. Yeah, I am in charge. And you shouldn't be here if you don't understand that. So I get up there and I know that I'm going to be training them. I got to show them who the boss is. You know, I'm being really frank about this. So I get up there and say, that's it, out.
No, no. You know, this is Tyson. No, let me go. I want to do another round. I want to do another one. I want... I said, out. Did you hear what I said? Because I knew that he was going to test me. He was testing me. I said, get out. He got out. But were you impressed with the fact that you wanted to keep going? Yes, and I recognized what it really was. So Custer asked me, what was that?
Custer wanted to know what the young master saw. So Custer said, what was that? I said, it was an act. He goes, you saw that? Did he really want to go? I said, no. I said, he didn't really want to go. But he knew that we want him to go. And he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy. And that's just as good. And Gus said, damn right, it's just as good. All that matters was not, not, not,
How he got there, but that he got there. That's all that matters. That he got there. That he got to the place to act like a fighter. To do what we want him to do. To be ready to persevere. To go beyond the comfort level. To do another round. He didn't want to. Damn right he didn't want to. But he knew we want him to. And he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it.
And he said, you're right. He goes, now it's going to be your job to teach him to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit, and will get to that place without being coerced to get there, to get to that place on his own. instead of using the things that he had to use to get to that place today.
Those things are not going to be available one day when you, and listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic, because it's pretty good. You talk about a man being on a job, on money. Lex, he says, how do you think he finishes the sentence? He goes, because someday, because, you know, you're going to have to make sure that he learns these things.
Because, you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ. What did you just say? He's 12 years old. He's been arrested 30 times. He's getting out of jail, out of juvenile detention, try on. He's a mess in a lot of ways. There's a lot of things we find out later, a lot of problems, weaknesses. He goes, and that's part of your job. That'll be part of your job. But he really said that.
And then he turned to him, he goes, you want to come live with us, young man? You want to be a fighter? Yeah. Yes. Even that, Cus said to me later, what do you think about that? I said, The way he said yes. Yeah, the way he said yes. Yes, sir. He said, what do you think about that? And we're talking. I said, ain't going to be that polite in a little while down the road.
Again, he knew that that's what he felt that he needed to project himself as, to present himself as, to get to where he wanted to get to. He goes, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Did you see what Cuss was seeing in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world?
No. Again, the easiest answer would be yes. Teddy Ellis. Genius. Wow. Wow. Teddy, wow. No, no. No. No. But, again, it was my job.
Yeah.
And I just... My job, it was simple, simpler than Cuss's. Cuss knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew rudiments of boxing. I knew what it took to be a fighter and how to execute it, the steps of executing it. So I took those steps. The rest of it, you get blurred by those other things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. It was just get him in the gym.
make them mentally stronger, make them face things, and teach them how to slip punches and create holes and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches. And what are you going to do? I'm going to teach them to fill holes and fill them with punches with bad intentions. And that became the moniker. And then Tyson would say that. I'm throwing punches with bad intentions. Yes, you are.
And, you know...
How do you make it mentally tougher? So that part of the job. You said don't get a bloody nose, but the part of the job where it makes it mentally tougher. How do you do that? Most important part of the job.
to make him face things. Make him face where he's lying to himself, where he's submitting. We start this conversation with submission. Submit less. Submit less. Submit less every day. Submit less. Because I only come to the gym once in a while. And if I had him sparring, he would come because that was his project. That was the heavyweight. Now he came, you know, and put life in Cuss.
Cuss had life. He was losing a little life, but that made the light bulb bright again. It did. And it was great to see. I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when it all went bad and Cuss took the side, the only side he could take, the side of the next heavyweight champion of the world, but he left me, his partner, the young master. And of the second time I get portrayed.
And I'm like, for a while I thought everything Gus taught me, said to me, was a lie. I didn't want to be any part of it anymore. Until I got a little more mature and I got a little past that, where I was able to understand, I was able to understand that
Just because somebody that you perceived as great in every area, you find to be weak in certain areas, doesn't mean that they can't still be what they want to you.
It's something that can be understood or forgiven.
It's hard. as hard to get to that place and forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed because Cus told me the most important thing was loyalty. Cus told me he loved me because I was loyal. Cus told people that the reason that he went to court was because I didn't give up anybody, even though it meant putting me in the risk of going to jail for 10 years.
And Gus felt that he admired those traits. And so I assumed that he would show the same traits. And he took a deal. He took a deal. He took a deal. He signed the papers that those so-called fans of mine signed.
You know, he took a deal to, you know, to have the future heavyweight championship turned out and to let me, you know, to let me go, to sign the deal, to let me take, you know, take the weight.
For people who don't know, Mike was inappropriate with a young girl and you pulled the gun on him. I don't know if there's deeper things to say about that situation. But why do you think Cus made the decision to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from Cus D'Amato? Like to break that, When he valued loyalty so much.
I served my purpose. I got him to the way he needed to get. Brought life back in the gym. If I wasn't in the gym at that particular time, Tyson never would have been in the gym. There would have been no gym to bring him to. When they called up and made that phone call to bring him to the gym, there would have been no activity. There would have been no boxing program. There would have been...
no trainer training him 24-7 the way I was, where Cus wasn't capable of doing that at that point in his life. But then again, it's not poor Teddy. I get the benefit of a career. I get the benefit of knowledge. I get the benefit of a life. I get the benefit of learning, of becoming hopefully a better person. I get the benefit of being betrayed again. But
That's a hell of a statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is.
You can learn to forgive weakness when you realize how easy it is to be weak.
And when you realize that, somebody asked me, how did you get to the point where you could forgive, right? It's a pretty good question, pretty simple, pretty basic, pretty important, right? And I didn't understand, I understood, but I did understand immediately for me. I said, how can I not forgive somebody? It becomes easier to learn how to forgive
when you're still trying to forgive yourself, when you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for all your own inherent weaknesses and betrayals of people like my father in different ways that we forget very easily because it's handy and it's a way of surviving.
It's a lot easier to figure it out, rationalize it, to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out. And so that helped me figure out how to forgive cusses.
because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understood why I did these things, where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came from, that they really existed. But they didn't exist for malice. They existed for me not being prepared to understand that I could be stronger, to want to be stronger. And then I looked at Cuss,
He wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in life where he had been strong for a lot of his life. He was strong with me. He was strong with a lot of things in his life. And does everyone deserve a pass in life where he got to a place where everything was in one place? basket, the basket of boxing.
He once told me that he never got married because it would have been selfish to a woman to have gotten married when his whole life was boxing, that he couldn't give to a kid, he couldn't give to her. And then I thought about it. He had no money, really. And Jim Jacobs and Bill Caden took care of the bills, so he didn't really need money that way. But
What was the payoff for that kind of life, that kind of commitment, that kind of sacrifice? Really, what was the payoff? The payoff was to have champions, to have a champion that would keep your name alive. You know, that word legacy, like what does it mean? Sometimes it's just a word, sometimes it's more than a word. It's a reprieve. It's a pension plan.
It's being given a pension on your way out for the rest of your life, for your life wherever you're going. You're going to wherever you're going for eternity. It's the only thing that you take with you is what you left behind. And for Cuss, it was all about leaving behind a mark, a mark of champion. Yeah, it was attached to ego. We all have it. Yeah, it was attached to some selfishness and all.
But yeah, it was also attached to wanting to leave something great behind. Yeah. to know that you were part of it, that you existed for a reason, that you sacrificed for a reason. And all that freaking pain I brought my father, I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into a righteous search.
I made it into, I did, and I made it into, it was okay because it was righteous, but it still did damage. It still did damage, it still hurt people. It still betrayed my father's trust. And Cuz betrayed mine, but he didn't do it maliciously. He did it out of, again, My father came home. This is how I'm going to connect it. My father came home from work one night at 12 o'clock, and I was waiting.
And like I said, I was over 9, 10 years old. And he got mad at me. He goes, go to bed. What are you doing up? I said, I'm waiting for you. I'm waiting for you. And he said, well, go to bed. I said, no. What were you doing? He said, I was at the hospital. Why were you there so late? You know. He answered me. He said there was a patient. It was a sick patient.
I said, he must be better now because you're his doctor. Because my father can fix anything. My father, nothing got in the way of the truth. Nothing. Nothing. Even blowing his son's bubble. Matter of factly, he said to me, no, he's not going to get better. He's going to die. And, um, So as a nine-year-old kid, you're a kid, you're selfish. Not in a bad way, but you want what you want.
And I said two things. First I said, how? You're his doctor. How? It can't be. And then I said, I just said it almost angry. Then why were you there? Like you should have been here with me. Yeah. And you know what he said to me? Because you don't give up on life. Go to bed and give up on life. And that's, I finally connected the dots. This idiot that didn't graduate high school.
I finally connected the dots. I was asking cuts to give up on life. You don't give up on life. You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is all forms of life. It doesn't have to be a physical form of it. It's life. It's having a reason to be alive. It's having a reason to have tomorrow. And Custer's only reason to have tomorrow was to have another heavyweight champ.
And Teddy Atlas, even though we were together all those years and we were partners and we trained together and we were, you know, the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers. That's the only thing we didn't do. And I felt like we did that without cutting. Yeah. And now here we are. And he freaking betrayed me.
And then all of a sudden I connected to Das. I was like, he didn't betray me in that cold sense.
He didn't give up on life. Years later, Mike Tyson apologized to you. What's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story?
I want to be the great gracious guy right now. Say, oh, I'm so human that a man's man enough to say, sorry, that's it. We're good. I want to be, really, that's the best presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there. He's a good guy. He forgives. He's a good guy. He's a stand-up guy, and he's a good guy. I'm not sure.
If he truly did it for himself, that he really did it because he felt that It was true.
But if he's persuaded by other things... He was in the middle. I know I'm taking it too deep. I know it, but what am I going to do? He was in the middle of 12 steps with the, you know, getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps, which is a commemorable thing. Really, it is. And he's taking the steps. A part of the steps was to admit or to apologize to all people you offended in life. Okay. But...
Are you doing it for the 12 steps or are you doing it because you really, truly have come to terms with believing what you did was that hurtful to me and that it matters to you that it was that hurtful to me and that you were wrong in doing it? I know that's deep. I know that I'm a freaking idiot. You're a teddy. You should be better than that. He's better than you.