In this conversation, Ross talks to Steve Bannon, the chief strategist from Donald Trump’s first term and part of the original MAGA movement. Despite his clashes with new factions emerging in the Republican Party, Bannon argues that Trump is still central to advancing a populist agenda.Editors’ note: This episode originally aired on the “Matter of Opinion” podcast on Jan. 31, 2025.(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: Who are the speakers in this conversation?
Hey, listeners, it's Ross Douthat. We're hard at work developing my new show, which is going to be called Interesting Times, a reference to the curse disguised as a blessing, or maybe the blessing disguised as a curse. May you live in interesting times, which we are. And our first few episodes will be coming out soon.
But before then, I wanted to reshare the interviews that started it all, a set of conversations that attempt to map out the new political order with some of the people at the forefront. So enjoy, and please subscribe to Interesting Times wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Steve, you ready? Born ready, sir. I know, born fighting. If we don't have a fight, why are we populists?
If you want to deliver a long monologue about the genius of Elon Musk and Silicon Valley, if you've had AI write one for you, we can do that too.
No, I've got a very specific take on the oligarchs. I'll share it with you today.
From New York Times Opinion, I'm Ross Douthat. On this week's show, we're continuing my one-on-one conversations with figures who represent different, potentially clashing worldviews within the new Trump administration. Two weeks ago, I talked to venture capitalist Mark Andreessen about the newest faction in Trump world, the so-called tech right.
My guest this week, Steve Bannon, represents what I might call Trumpism classic, the populist and nationalist movement that brought Trump to power in the first place and that aspires to exert significant influence in Trump's second administration.
Indeed, a lot of executive orders we've already seen from this White House on immigration, reshaping the federal bureaucracy and more are clearly stamped by Bannon's populist anti-establishment aspirations. Bannon is also emerging as one of the most vocal critics from the right of Elon Musk and other members of the tech right. And so we're going to talk a lot about that brewing conflict.
Steve, welcome to the show.
Ross, thank you very much, but I got to correct you right out of the box. Please don't tell me, because I read your column, that you didn't consider Marc Andreessen a part of the right. Marc Andreessen and the oligarchs are nothing but a bunch of progressive leftists.
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Chapter 2: What is Steve Bannon's background and role in the Trump movement?
I've started off, when I first started this, you know, people that I really admire were just like, populism, what are you talking about? It's like, and don't say nationalism because that's, you know, nationalism doesn't go to a good place. I said, no, we're populist nationalists. So I've had long odds before. This one's long odds.
Now we've got the Sputnik moment that can you let the Chinese Communist Party get ahead of you? Can you let these bad actors get ahead of you? And now we're in a horrible national security dilemma. And yes, President Trump, as he always does, and this is the way President Trump rolls, President Trump listens to a lot of voices. And he will think it over, and then he'll make a decision.
And clearly, the tech, the broligarchs have, because of their ability to get in there, and also I consider the... inauguration day, like they're on display, like on the deck of the battleship Missouri, and he's MacArthur, and they're the Imperial Japanese staff sending the surrender document, but they're in there. They're inside the wire.
Well, and there's a difference. I mean, I think what you said about Zuckerberg, though, is right. There's a group of people in tech who decided to support Trump The night that he won the 2024 election. That's absolutely true. And a lot of the guys who were there for the inauguration were, you know, I think general defeated generals paraded in a Roman triumph. Right. But Musk is not like that.
Right. No, Musk is not like that. No. A bunch of the people around Musk are not like that.
And I don't think Andreessen is like that either. Andreessen came over.
Right. No, these are people who were who were already deeply alienated from.
But they didn't. No, no. But hang on. Hang on. Andreessen and Musk are smart enough to be able to get below the surface on the numbers and see the direction of the country and climb on board as the techno feudalist early on. They are hardcore techno-feudalists. They're not populists. You know, I tease Elon all the time.
If I could turn him from a techno-feudalist globalist to a populist nationalist, we could make some progress here. He's definitely a techno-feudalist, one of the hardest core. And so is Andreessen. Andreessen, these guys are smart. I mean, Andreessen, these guys, you're talking about genius-level intelligence. These are not dumb people. But... They're not with us when it comes to the little guy.
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