It’s been four days since the diplomatic earthquake went down in the Oval Office between President Trump, Vice President Vance, and Ukrainian president Zelensky. The world is still feeling the aftershocks. In Europe, leaders have been jolted into action. Ukraine’s European allies, including British prime minister Keir Starmer and French president Emmanuel Macron, met in London on Sunday to forge their own peace plan and agree on additional support for Kyiv. In Moscow, officials are celebrating Trump’s approach to the conflict—and his foreign policy more generally. “The new administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This largely coincides with our vision,” said a Kremlin spokesman. Russian state TV described a new world order with Trump in the White House. In Washington, administration officials have made it clear that it is up to Zelensky to apologize and patch things up if there is any chance of a U.S.-Ukraine mineral deal. “The president believes Zelensky has to come back to the table and he has to be the one to come and make it right,” one official told NBC News. The Zelensky-Trump bust-up—and the war in Ukraine in general—is one of those important subjects where people we respect (including inside The Free Press newsroom) passionately disagree. There are plenty of other outlets that will give you only one strongly expressed view. But it is our conviction that the only way we can get to the truth is by seriously considering multiple perspectives. The differences of opinion start with the question of what, exactly, we all watched on Friday. Were Trump and Vance bullying a besieged ally in public? Or were we watching the White House finally stand up for American taxpayers? Then there are the bigger questions: Is Trump’s Ukraine policy a long-overdue acknowledgment of the limits of American power? Or an unforced error that endangers not just America’s allies but America itself? And what are the chances of peace with honor for Ukraine? Today we’ve brought together a group of people who answer those questions quite differently: Free Press columnist Batya Ungar-Sargon, Democratic fundraiser and strategist Brianna Wu, and special guest Christopher Caldwell, author of multiple books, including The Age of Entitlement. Both Batya and Christopher have pieces up in The Free Press right now: “Zelensky’s Trumpian Trick” by Christopher Caldwell, and “What Average Americans Think of Trump’s Showdown with Zelensky” by Batya Ungar-Sargon. Other must-reads in The Free Press: "Trump’s Foreign Policy Revolution" by Matthew Continetti "J.D. Vance’s Fighting Words—Against Me and Ukraine" by Niall Ferguson "A Fiasco in the Oval Office" by Eli Lake "Ten Reasons for the Zelensky-Trump Blowup" by Victor Davis Hanson "What Zelensky Can Learn from Netanyahu" by Michael Oren Header 6: The Free Press earns a commission from any purchases made through all book links in this article. If you liked what you heard from Honestly, the best way to support us is to go to TheFP.com and become a Free Press subscriber today. Go to groundnews.com/Honestly to get 40% off the unlimited access Vantage plan and unlock world-wide perspectives on today’s biggest news stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What happened during the Oval Office meeting with Trump and Zelensky?
From the Free Press, this is Honestly and I'm Barry Weiss. It's been four days since the diplomatic earthquake between President Trump, Vice President Vance and Ukrainian President Zelensky went down in the Oval Office.
Welche Art von Diplomatie, J.D., sprichst du hier von? Was meinst du? Ich spreche über die Art von Diplomatie, die das Zerstören Ihres Landes beenden wird. Ja, aber wenn Sie nicht... Herr Präsident, Herr Präsident, mit Respekt. Ich denke, es ist nicht respektvoll, dass Sie in die Oval Office kommen und versuchen, dies vor den amerikanischen Medien zu litigieren.
Gerade jetzt gehen Sie herum und fordern Konskripte an die Frontlinien, weil Sie Männlichkeitsprobleme haben. Sie sollten den Präsidenten danken, dass Sie versucht haben, diesen Konflikt zu bringen.
Haben Sie in der Ukraine nie gesagt, welche Probleme wir haben?
Chapter 2: Was the Oval Office exchange a diplomatic failure or a strategic move?
The world is still reeling from the aftershocks.
You have to be thankful. You don't have the cards. You're buried there. Your people are dying. You're running low on soldiers. Listen, you're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing. Then you tell us, I don't want to cease fire. I don't want to cease fire. I want to go and I wanted this. Look.
If you could get a ceasefire right now, I'd tell you, you'd take it, so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed. Of course we want to stop the war.
But you're saying you don't want a ceasefire?
But I said to you... I want a ceasefire. ...with guarantees. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement. Ask our people about ceasefire, what they think. That wasn't with me.
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Chapter 3: How did Europe and Russia react to Trump's foreign policy?
In Europa haben die Führer in Aktion geflogen. Ukrainer europäische Alliierten, z.B. der britische Bundespräsident Keir Starmer und der französische Präsident Emmanuel Macron, haben sich am Sonntag in London getroffen, um ihren eigenen Friedensplan zu formen und argumentuell die Führung des Krieges aufzunehmen.
In Moskau feiern die Offiziere Trumps Bezug auf den Konflikt und seine Außenpolitik mehr generell. Die neue Regierung ändert schnell alle Außenpolitik-Konfigurationen. Dies gehört stark zu unserer Vision, sagte ein Kremlin-Vorsitzender. Und auf russischer Staats-TV beschreiben sie glücklicherweise den Aufstieg einer neuen Weltordnung mit Trump in der White House.
And in Washington, White House officials have made it clear that it is up to Zelensky to apologize if there is going to be any chance of a U.S.-Ukraine mineral deal. The president believes Zelensky has to come back to the table and he has to be the one to come and make it right, one official told NBC News.
The Zelensky-Trump-Bust-up and the war in Ukraine in general is one of those critically important subjects where people we respect, including inside the Free Press Newsroom, passionately disagree. Nun, es gibt viele andere Podcasts und Outlets, die nur einen starken Blick auf diesen Thema geben.
Aber es ist unsere Überzeugung, auf diesem Show und bei der Freien Presse, dass der einzige Weg, dass wir die Wahrheit über diesen oder irgendeinen anderen Thema finden können, ist, sich ernsthaft mehrere Perspektiven auszusehen, die in guter Glauben von Leuten, die wir respektieren, auszusprechen. Die Unterschiede in der Meinung beginnen mit der Frage, was wir genau am Freitag gesehen haben.
Was that Trump and Vance bullying a besieged, war-weary ally in public? Or were we actually watching the White House finally stand up for American taxpayers?
Stupid president, 350 billion dollars. We gave you military equipment and you men are brave, but they had to use our military. If you didn't have our military...
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Chapter 4: Are Trump and Zelensky's actions a reflection of a larger geopolitical strategy?
Und dann gibt es die größeren Fragen, wie ist Trumps Ukraine-Polizei ein langverdünntes Acknowledgement der Grenzen der amerikanischen Macht? Oder ist es eine tragische, unverzweifelte Fehler, die nicht nur unsere Alliierten gefährdet, sondern vielleicht auch das Heimatland selbst? Und was sind die Chancen an diesem Punkt einer Frieden mit Ehren für die Ukraine?
Heute haben wir ein Grupp von Leuten zusammengebracht, die all diese Fragen anders beantworten. Free Press-Columnist Batya Agersargon, Democratic Fundraiser and Strategist Brianna Wu and special guest Christopher Caldwell, author of multiple books, including The Age of Entitlement.
Untertitelung des ZDF für funk, 2017
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Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash honestly, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash honestly, all lowercase, to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com slash honestly. Okay, Brianna, Batia, Chris, welcome to Honestly. Hi, Barry. Thanks for having us. Thanks for being here. So, we obviously have to start with Ground Zero.
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Chapter 5: Is Trump's approach to Ukraine part of a broader foreign policy shift?
And I think Trump, he enjoys being praised. He enjoys looking like the big man. And I think everyone was playing their part here. It just happened that all those parts created a beautiful, devastating train wreck that you could not look away from.
I was at a dinner on Friday night and this is all anyone was talking about. And I think the big question that we all had sort of sitting down, having just watched it, was who started it? War es J.D. Vance, der ein bisschen schuldig war? Denn für meine Karten auf der Tafel, ich fühlte mich, als ob Trump der Junge in der Raum war.
Er war meiner Meinung nach, es ist Freitagabend, er ist wahrscheinlich entspannt. Er, all die Termine des Deal, was er die rare earths nennt, aber die Mineralien, haben sich ein bisschen predeterminiert. Es ist eine Fotografie, es ist eine Formalität. And I really saw the conflict as being between Vance and Zelensky. And I think the big question is, who baited who? Batya, how did you see it?
So, first of all, the first 40 minutes and the last 10 minutes in which the blow-up happened, it's night and day, right? And you can tell which commentators did not bother to watch the whole thing. For example, Trump actually defended Zelensky's sweatsuit during the...
40 Minuten.
Es gab einen wunderschönen Moment, als ein Trump-freundlicher Journalist sagte, warum kannst du nicht einen Schuh anziehen? Und ich erinnere mich, ich wundere mich, ob das Trump auch bedroht. Aber fünf Minuten später kam Trump und stand für ihn auf. Es war ein sehr... Er hat sich in den letzten 40 Minuten in einem leisen, ruhigen Meeting befasst.
It seemed to me of the type that is usually reserved for a NATO ally, meaning that he was undermining the whole point of this economic agreement, which is supposed to be instead of NATO membership, instead of continued US military support, which is extremely important to Donald Trump to end.
And so, you know, when you see all of that, and Zelenskyy twice in the meeting actually rolled his eyes when Donald Trump started to say, and you know, if I had been president, it would have never happened. You know, Trump likes to say that. He literally rolled his eyes. And at that point, I started to get very, very upset and uncomfortable. The idea that a vassal would come
to a superpower with that level of arrogance and that level of willingness to offend. You know, J.D. Vance then did ask a provocative question. He made a provocative statement, at which point Zelensky just unleashed and allowed himself to truly disrespect the office, I felt. And what Trump did in that moment was he stood up for the American people and the American taxpayer against
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of Trump’s foreign policy on global alliances?
You know, if I'd seen only the last 10 minutes, I have to say those 10 minutes made me quite... Unkomfortabel. Meine Ansichten sind wahrscheinlich näher an Briannas. J.D. Vance ist ein sehr talentierter Kerl in einer Art Konfrontation, wenn man sich zurückdenkt zu seiner Debatte mit Tim Walz. Aber er scheint sich wirklich auf Zielinski zu bewegen und er sah ein wenig wie ein Siedler aus.
Und die Art und Weise, wie der Raum gesetzt wurde. Das ist ein großer Unterschied zwischen Trump I und Trump II. During Trump won, Trump was the same kind of tough guy, but there were so many moments when he was just alone. You know, in his first term, Trump was always like the kid sitting on the couch outside the principal's office.
He was independent, he was bold, but he was constantly getting schooled. Now Trump is cool in Washington, and he's got a whole posse of really smart and smart talented people. He's got Marco Rubio. He's got Vance, who, as I say, is very bright. He's got Scott Besant, who's from the very pinnacle of the financial world. And so there was a big, Trump had a big crowd in there.
And it was Zelinsky, who was all alone. And so it did feel like he was getting beat up on. Jedoch, wie Batya und du sagst, war Zelenskyy die ganze Zeit, den Deal, den er beschlossen hatte. Und das meine ich bei dem, dass er sehr ähnlich wie Trump ist. Ich würde sagen, wenn es ein Manöver gibt, das Trump-archätypisch ist, ist es, die Grundregeln, die Framework und die Traditionen zu ignorieren,
of any venue. You just show up and say, okay, this is supposed to be a presidential debate and we've had them every year for the last 60 years. But I don't care. I'm not going to answer that question. I'm going to talk about, you know, dogs and cats. And it's what he wants to do and he steals the show. And that's what Zelinsky was doing. And you've got to remember, Zelinsky is one of the most
successful television producers in Europe. Zielinski is a really smart guy at doing exactly this, at grabbing eyeballs. And so he was doing this and he was sort of narrating a kind of different minerals agreement than the one I assume they're signing, although I don't know the details of it. Und es begann mit Trump, ich würde sagen, etwa in der Mitte der Beratung. Und dann wurde Vance ungeheuer.
Aber das, was Sie sehen, das, was Vances Ausbruch präsentiert hat, ist das sehr letzte Ding vor der Teilzeit, die wir normalerweise sehen, ist, dass Trump in seine Sache ging, was für ein schrecklicher Präsident Biden war. and how little he'd actually done. And Zelensky came to Biden's defense.
Zelensky spoke in such a way, I forget exactly what he said, but he said, you know, Biden and Europe were really pretty great, is essentially what he said. And that was sort of like really pulling the oratorical rug out from under Trump. And that was when I think Vance really made it confrontational.
I think that one of the Key things being debated right now is whether or not Zelensky was poorly advised and wasn't adept enough to read the room. Or if he had become sort of so confident, having been working with administration in Biden that was so sympathetic to him. He obviously spoke this summer at a Pennsylvania rally. Harris war nicht da, aber es war im Grunde ein Harris-Demokraten-Rallye.
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