Digital Social Hour
From 24 to CEO: How I Built a Thriving Church & Career | Pastor Lucas Miles DSH #1046
Thu, 02 Jan 2025
From starting a church at age 24 to becoming a CEO, Pastor Lucas Miles shares his extraordinary journey of faith, leadership, and unwavering conviction. 🙏 Get an insider's look at how he built a thriving church in Indiana while standing firm against cultural pressures and maintaining biblical truth. In this powerful conversation, discover how Pastor Miles navigated challenging times, including losing half his congregation for speaking biblical truth, and emerged stronger than ever. Learn about his innovative approach to church leadership, his perspective on modern challenges facing Christianity, and his mission to help other pastors stay true to their calling. As the Senior Director of Faith at Turning Point USA, Miles reveals his strategy for combating wokeism in churches and shares candid insights about maintaining authenticity in ministry. Whether you're interested in faith, leadership, or building something meaningful, this conversation offers practical wisdom for anyone seeking to make an impact while staying true to their values. Watch now for an honest, unfiltered discussion about faith, leadership, and standing strong in challenging times. This episode is packed with practical insights for both spiritual and professional growth. 🎯 #ChurchLeadership #Faith #Leadership #Ministry #Christianity #PersonalGrowth #Success #ministrystaffing #turningpointfaith #churchgrowth #churchelders #pastoralleadership CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Eradicating Wokeism 00:33 - Involvement with TPUSA 02:27 - Wokeism in the Church 05:42 - Politics and the Church 09:35 - Discipleship vs. Celebrity Culture 13:28 - Qualifications for Pastors 16:27 - Bible and Cannabis Perspectives 19:15 - Debating Atheists 21:00 - Gen Z's View on Religion 22:54 - Engaging Younger Generations 23:51 - Addressing Ageism 25:10 - Keeping Ego in Check 26:54 - Finding Lucas Miles APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [email protected] GUEST: Pastor Lucas Miles https://www.instagram.com/mrlucasmiles LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/
Chapter 1: What is the focus on eradicating wokeism in the church?
I know a big thing of your messaging is eradicating wokeism, right?
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Wokeism kind of very sneakily snuck into the church. And in many ways, I think that the church was actually the first place that it came into. But we start seeing early Christian socialists as far, you know, as late as the 1700s. There's a lot of bad actors. There's actually some dark money that's going into Christian organizations.
It's a pretty sinister thing when you look at it all around. And I think the more we can educate people on what the Bible says, the more they're going to be able to recognize sort of these false gospels when they're presented.
Chapter 2: How did Pastor Lucas Miles get involved with Turning Point USA?
All right, guys, got Pastor Miles here. We're at America Fest. It's his third one, my first. Thanks for coming on today, man. Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Absolutely. How did you and Charlie Kirk first get together?
Yeah, so Charlie and I met probably about maybe three years ago originally. I actually at first had him briefly on a podcast show that I did kind of on the tail end of COVID. I guess it might have been four years ago now. And, and then, uh, I spoke, you know, we didn't interact super long though. And I spoke at one of the pastors conferences that, uh, TPUSA faith put on.
Um, and it was, uh, one of the other staff members had brought me on stage. Charlie had never heard me kind of on my own speak before. And afterwards he, uh, one of his team kind of called me back to meet with him. And he's like, Hey man. loved it. He's like, we want to get behind you. How do we support what you're doing?
And so about the last year and a half or so, we've been working together on a couple of different projects. I've been on a show a few times, did a freedom night with him in Phoenix where he interviewed me in front of about 1500 people. And then I knew that there was a vacancy in the faith role for the head of faith for Turning Point.
And I told him, I said, look, if you need me to vet anybody, I've been a senior pastor for 20 years at the same church. I had no intention of going anywhere, doing anything different. And I would have told you I was kind of unemployable. I've only worked for myself, you know, really. So I said, if you need me to vet anybody you're looking at or considering, just let me know.
And so he reached out to me around the 4th of July this summer. And he's like, hey, I got somebody. I was like, who is it? And he's like, it's you. And I'm like, wait a minute, what? And I was not ready for that at all. And so my wife and I prayed about it. I still pastor a church in Indiana near the University of Notre Dame. And then I commute to Phoenix.
So we're doing kind of the two-state thing for the first time here ever. It's been incredible. Both teams have been super gracious with kind of understanding that I have a foot in both worlds. But I'm full-time here at TPSA Faith as the senior director.
Got a team of about 30 people right now helping to change really the landscape with churches across the country and get pastors preaching the Word of God again and engaged on these social issues.
I love it. I know a big thing of your messaging is eradicating wokeism, right? So where are you seeing that where it's problematic the most right now?
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Chapter 3: What challenges did Pastor Miles face in his church leadership?
So I in 2015, 2016, you know, as we were kind of going into the first Trump presidency, look, I've been a conservative really my whole life. I flirted with Christian socialism early on. And thankfully, I had some people that pulled me out of that. So I know how the allure that it has.
Um, but I, uh, I did a series in 2015, um, uh, kind of rounding the corner in 2016 on, I called it, what does the Bible say about? Very simple. And then for eight weeks, we did a different word at the end of that. What does the Bible say about socialism versus capitalism? What's it say about open borders, you know, versus secure nation? What's it say about, you know, sexuality?
What's it say about marriage? And we just went through and just biblically, I just, you know, begin to kind of unpack what scripture offers on all those various topics. And in eight weeks, I lost half of my people from my church. Right. and half of my donors from my church.
And so you have a, you know, this is, and this is why I think it's so important that in my role in speaking to pastors around the country, I've got 3,500 pastors right now that were, you know, that were deeply engaged in their lives. I think that list is going to double or triple in the next, you know, two years.
And, and the, you know, when I'm talking to pastors around the nation, I think it's important that they know that, look, I'm still a pastor myself. I'm still in the pulpit. The things I'm asking you to do, I have done myself and I've paid the price of being bold and being brave and being free, you And but here's what I'll tell you is we've grown back several times since then.
We're the best position we've been financially. We're stable. You know, we've got great place of ministry is God's rewarded. I think that obedience, you know, in preaching the word and and although it was painful at the time, I would tell any pastor that it was worth it to speak truth, even if it meant losing people. I think we have a lot of pastors. I always say there's three types of pastors.
There's true pastors. They're obvious. They're preaching the word of God. They're legit. Then we have traitorous pastors. They are usually pretty easy to sniff out. These are guys that have bowed the knee to Marxist agendas and everything else instead of preaching the word of God. The middle category, though, is where it's a little messy. I call these guys, I call them the trembling pastors.
And those are the pastors that are kind of, they're not sure. They might align themselves ideologically with the truth, but they're afraid to speak out. They're afraid of what it's going to mean. Are they going to lose people if they do? Are they going to lose revenue if they do? I mean, I talked to a pastor here recently in a major city in the U.S.
He's got a $47,000 a month lease payment on his bill. Wow. You know, and that's not extravagant. It's just that's the size of building they need for their church in a very expensive area of the country that they're in. And, you know, he's doing the math here. What happens if I bring Lucas Miles or Charlie Kirk in to preach on a Sunday morning?
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Chapter 4: How does celebrity culture affect discipleship in modern churches?
And I think there's a lot of pastors that see, you know, you go to a place in LA where you got a celebrity that ends up at a church. The pastors almost become afraid to disciple these guys because they don't want to lose them. If I speak too much into Justin Bieber's life and talk to him about what he really needs to hear, is he going to stay?
You know, and obviously I'm just using him as an example, but like, you know, you know, you have that sort of thing where like, how honest can I be? We're just a normal everyday non-celebrity that comes into your church. You worry about that less. So they're actually getting discipled better and Because you're giving them the truth without that hesitation.
I think it's very important that those pastors in the nation, those of us that have influence with major celebrity figures or social media influencers, whatever, that we build rapport with them in such a way that we can say the hard things and say, look, I love you. I love your platform. I love what you're doing.
But bro, you need disciples a little bit more and you need somebody to come alongside of you and really teach you the most excellent way in the word of God so that you don't start becoming a teacher in yourself, overconfident in these things and then causing a lot of people to fall back into some sort of error. or falsehood.
That makes sense. Is that the biggest issue you're seeing right now with pastors? They're afraid to speak out?
I think generally afraid to speak out. Obviously, the celebrity social media thing that not everybody's dealing with that exact same way, but that's more and more as platforms are blowing up. But I think just the fear to speak out, I think is there for sure. And there's a lot of bad information. People are like, oh, I'm going to lose my 501c3 if I talk about politics.
No church has ever lost their 501c3 ever. And so that's not a thing. Nobody has ever spoken out about politics and had their 501c3 taken away. And so like, I always tell people the best thing that could ever happen would be the IRS showing up to my church and taking away my 501c3. I would be on national news the next day and our church would blow up. I mean, it would be amazing.
And so I'm like, look, if you want it, come and get it. You know, like, please, please come and take my 501c3 away. Obviously, we're not intentionally trying to violate that. But look, if you just preach the word of God, you're going to deal with every social issue. If you just look at a primary doctrine, like God is creator.
When I understand properly that God is a creator, it helps me understand marriage. It helps me understand sexuality. It helps me understand gender. It helps me understand just created order. role relationships, all these sorts of things are summed up in this creative order that God put together as he himself, the creator.
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Chapter 5: What are the qualifications for becoming a pastor?
Chapter 6: How can pastors stand firm against cultural pressures?
And whether people pay me or don't pay me, this is what I do. This is what the mission of my life is. It's not my business. It's not my job. I would be working with churches whether Charlie was paying me to work with churches or not. This is just the call of my life. So you have to consider the cost. And then you have to recognize that your life is going to be scrutinized if you're in ministry.
There's certain things that I don't do that I know biblically I have the freedom to do. that I just know it's going to cause people to think about me differently, you know, or to do in that way. So, I mean, even something like alcohol, like I believe that somebody is free to drink. I have pastor friends that drink. I don't have any theological issue with that.
But I know in my own life, I don't want somebody to say, well, you're only preaching the grace of God so that you can do X, Y, or Z. I try to live in a way where I limit my freedoms for the sake of giving life to other people. And that has protected me, I think, from a lot of things, you know, in life. Yeah. Gotta avoid cancel culture, right? Right on. Right on. What's the Bible's take on cannabis?
Cannabis, you know, that's an interesting take. So, or interesting question. So my personal opinion is that, you know, you can look at this a couple of ways. We could say, hey, you know, follow the laws of the land. If it's legal in this place, there's people that would try to justify it that way. For me, I think it's a little bit more black and white than that.
I think that, you know, for me, I would never encourage a Christian to, to do anything that is going to take their mind into some sort of distorted place.
I think that if you're using certain cannabis products that are for medical purposes and they're finding benefits for cancer treatments and they're finding benefits for those sorts of things, there's ways to be able to get the benefits that they have, I think, without the hallucination, without the high that comes with that. And so I think that there's a lot of justification
regarding cannabis products in the name of, you know, trying to work our different angles here to make it work. If they have benefit, they can have benefit without the high. You don't have to have the THC in it in order to get those other benefits. That has virtually no, you know, therapeutic benefits the way that the other parts of the product might.
And so personally, I would stay away from it and would take probably a little straighter edge with that. That makes sense. You've never tried it? No, I haven't. All right. Yeah, I haven't at all. So I've been around. I had a lot of friends. And people probably thought I was a pothead and screwed because I had so many of my friends smoked weed growing up.
But I just said I kind of had, you know, shaggy long hair with them. But no, I mean, I got to call my life very early and very thankful. The Lord, you know, I actually felt like I always had a boring testimony because I just like, I've been walking with the Lord for a long time, but in hindsight, God has really spared me from falling into a lot of stuff, a lot of problems.
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Chapter 7: What is the future of church attendance and engagement?
Chapter 8: How is Turning Point USA addressing wokeism among churches?
I see other people that I know, and I'm just very grateful that God really protected me along the way from some of that.
Yeah, young age for sure, 15. A lot of people don't get a call until much later. 15 might be one of the youngest I've heard, actually.
Yeah, I planted the church actually that I'm still pastoring. So I just turned 45. I started the church that I'm still pastoring at 24. Whoa. So I've been a senior pastor for over 20 years now in South Bend, Indiana there. And it's been absolutely amazing. And so that's something that's really helped shape my ministry and calling.
Yeah, that's incredible. That's the youngest pastor I've ever heard, 24. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a cool dynamic though, to bring to the older crowd.
I appreciate it. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I've, you know, a lot of our congregation is like, watch me grow up, you know? So we've had people have been there a long time. And so it's, uh, it's, it's been pretty amazing to, you know, to see that and be part of it. Now I'm kind of that, you know, I'm kind of in that middle phase where, you know, and honestly, my forties have been incredible.
I think that there is a new level of respect that people kind of, you just kind of cross into at that, at that age of 40, that I was, you know, you know, used to being the young guy in the room, kind of fighting for, you know, that level of respect. And so, uh,
I'm really grateful for where I am and, uh, and the role that I have here, you know, with turning points and, uh, it's, but it's been absolutely, absolutely incredible. I'm looking forward to the years ahead.
Yeah. What's your approach with skeptics, like atheists and stuff? Do you ever debate them? Do you give them the time of day?
Yes. I'm doing more and more of that. I actually would like to, to, to jump in that a bit more. I, you know, I was a philosophy, religious studies major. And so I'm pretty familiar with a lot of different, uh, backgrounds. I've read a lot of Hindu books like Bhagavad Gita. I've, I've looked at, you know, uh, you know, other religions along the way. Um, I,
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