Josh Mankiewicz catches up with Andrea Canning about her episode, “The Room Downstairs.” In March 2011, a suburban New Jersey home was suddenly engulfed in flames. When firefighters entered the basement, they found 59-year-old Robert Cantor dead on a bed. An autopsy revealed that he’d been fatally shot before the fire was set. Andrea and Josh talk about the love triangle that pointed investigators to their prime suspect and the circumstantial case that resulted in his conviction – twice. Plus, Andrea shares two podcast-exclusive interview clips, one from the victim’s best friend and the other from his killer.See the sweater Tung wore during his interview: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ijdpFw5AMm4?feature=share Listen to the full episode of “The Room Downstairs” on Apple: https://apple.co/41vjGSWListen to the full episode on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Bp75v2QXrJwaeUlAVO8WJ
Chapter 1: What happened in the New Jersey house fire case?
So to recap, this was March 2011 in suburban New Jersey, just across the George Washington Bridge from Manhattan in New York City. A house was engulfed in flames. Firefighters found a body in a basement bedroom, belonged to a 59-year-old guy named Robert Cantor. And police did have a feeling that it was more than a standard house fire.
Chapter 2: Who was Robert Cantor and what were the circumstances of his death?
Turned out they were right because he had been shot in the head and that the fire was a kind of a cover-up. So this case sort of takes us to the oldest motive in the book, which is jealousy, passion, revenge, and a love triangle, familiar shape to anybody who watches Dateline, that went very, very wrong. So let's talk Dateline.
Chapter 3: What was the role of jealousy and love triangles in the investigation?
You know, everything about this from the beginning, from when you first, you know, the guy first sees the smoke coming from across the street, the guy who's fixing his tire, like you immediately think, yeah, there's going to be more to it than just somebody dies in a fire.
And I thought it was very interesting what the fire investigators said, that when you see a healthy person, not somebody who's, you know, confined to their bed or something, a guy who's 59 years old, they don't stay in the bed. They're trying to get out. You find them near the door or they're,
clearly trying to get out of the place where the fire is happening and that that didn't happen in this case. And that was in itself suspicious.
It sure didn't. And of course, Rob had been shot. So, you know, once they got a closer look at the body, this was not a death by fire, not a death by burning or smoke inhalation or anything like that. It was cold-blooded murder.
This reminds me of Dawn Hackney, the woman who was killed in Bremerton, Washington, and In a podcast I did called Mortal Sin, in which it was thought that she died in a fire. It turned out that her husband had strangled her before the fire began. So, you know, there were two other kind of similar murders, arsons in that Teaneck, New Jersey area. I know, strange, right?
Around the time of Rob's death. And so police clearly were at least... wondering whether this had to do with one of those. It certainly does leap out at you from the beginning. What do you think? You think Tony Tung knew about those?
Oh, that's a good question I never thought of. It's possible that he, you know, did it that way because he had researched crime in the area. I mean, oh, that's a good observation, Josh. Yeah.
I mean, they'd been in the paper. Like, you know, you could have seen it.
And they were so eerily similar.
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Chapter 4: How did circumstantial evidence play a part in the trial?
Chapter 5: What were the key challenges in proving Tony Tung's guilt?
Right.
garbage trucks that are hired by insurance companies and law enforcement. And I mean, there's so many ways to catch people now on camera doing something they shouldn't be doing or at least providing a piece of the puzzle to a crime.
The prosecutor was pretty clear with you, I thought, that he believed that somebody else had helped Tony Tong get from Manhattan to New Jersey to cover his tracks. That it wasn't just, you know, he took a cab and the cab driver didn't realize, you know, who he was taking or why he was taking it and didn't remember it later. Like, he makes it sound like it's an actual co-conspirator.
And nobody ever got arrested for that. I mean, the feeling you get is that whoever that was, if that person does exist, they're getting away with it.
Yeah, there was some talk of, and this is all alleged, that some people in Tony's world, that he may have had some connections to a gang, some bad people. Tony Tung has denied any allegations that he's somehow connected to gang violence online.
and you know has maintained his innocence throughout this it just was very circumstantial as i said you know there was no smoking gun there was no like we caught him buying the murder weapon that matched the bullet like nothing was concrete but as we know you don't need the smoking gun to put someone away for murder it's all those little pieces that add up for a jury you know
I mean, I've said this in the past, but there's this sense that, you know, out there in the public, as you know, that circumstantial evidence sort of is lesser, that it doesn't count as much. I mean, here's the thing about circumstantial evidence. It doesn't lie. Like, he did erase his hard drive at that time that night.
Circumstantial evidence can't be accused of forgetting to put on its eyeglasses. Circumstantial evidence can't be accused of being angry at the defendant and slanting its testimony for that reason. Circumstantial evidence is whatever it is. There's no other way to interpret that. So sometimes circumstantial evidence is much better than direct evidence.
It is, and I mean, if all you had was that he erased his hard drive, that's it.
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Chapter 6: What behind-the-scenes story did Andrea share about her interview with Tony Tung?
Right, right.
And Tony Tung is like sweating, which, you know, when you're trying to defend yourself for murder, I guess you don't want to look like you're sweating during the interview. I noticed that. And then I thought to myself was that this is so crazy, this sweater, that people are going to think that he's not in jail because who the heck would wear that sweater?
I'm surprised there's not like a jail rule, no itchy green Himalayan sweaters.
Well, I'm pretty sure there is now.
Well, anyway, the sweater has lived on and the sweater almost is another character in the show.
It is. And I totally bought it. I thought, well, either he beat the charges or he's not going to get charged and I'm wrong about him. So this case took a while. I mean, he was arrested like 14 months after the murder.
Yeah, because they didn't have, you know, it was such a fact-finding, right, gathering. And there's so many cases where it's not perfect, but it's kind of one of those now or never, right?
Right.
Like, let's go for it, you know? And honestly, sometimes that's all it is, is we're not going to get any better. We don't feel like we're going to, barring a witness coming forward or a confession, we're just not going to find anything else at this point. So let's just do it.
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Chapter 7: How did the infamous sweater become a part of the narrative?
I mean, who knows if it was the defense attorney or, you know, it's like with jurors, it's like a box of chocolates, right? You never know what you're going to get. I mean, it's all walks of life. It's like a game of roulette.
After the break, Andrea is going to share two podcast exclusive clips that did not make it into the broadcast. One was Rob's best friend and the other from Rob's killer. I'm guessing you guys tried very hard to get Sophie to talk and she didn't want to. But you got Rob's sister, and she was great.
She was fantastic. Yeah. We were so grateful that his sister spoke to us, and she was so lovely. And she spoke about this wonderful relationship that she had with her brother, and... You know, I was just happy finally somebody was talking about Rob. And yes, his friend spoke to us who was wonderful, Murdad.
But it was so wonderful to have a family member saying such nice things about Rob and, you know, really stand up for her brother and let us know what he was all about.
Yeah. I thought your interview with Mayor Dodd was just so adorable. I mean, he seems like a great guy. And the closeness that he felt with Rob and clearly still feels all these years later is very obvious. I mean, he really loved his friend. And they loved each other. They had these silly nicknames for each other. They were funny. They were so funny.
And Mayor Dodd was the perfect person to talk about Rob and to bring Rob to life for us.
So here's a clip that did not make the broadcast from your interview with Mehrdad.
And I truly believe if he were alive today and this heinous man was in prison, he said, Mehrdad, maybe we should buy some cookies and go see him. When the first time... This whole thing happened. He went to his house and he called me. They said, Murdoch, I'm running late. He came to see me. I said, who is he? He kept saying he. I said, who? He said, Tony. I couldn't connect the dots.
Then I realized. He said, I'll see you in a few minutes. So he showed up at work. He looked disheveled. I made the coffee. We sat down. He explained to me. I told him, how did you let him in? It's a bizarre behavior.
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