Chief Change Officer
#88 Wayne Turmel: Hybrid Work Is Not a Strategy—It’s a Hostage Negotiation
Thu, 5 Dec 2024
Wayne Turmel, co-author of The Long-Distance Leader, joins the show to unpack the chaos of remote and hybrid leadership. Is hybrid work really a strategy? Wayne says it’s more like a game of tug-of-war—companies push for office days, employees dig in their heels, and somehow three days in the office feels like a compromise nobody loves. He dives into how proximity bias sneaks into decision-making, why intentionality is the secret sauce for great leadership, and how balancing deep work with collaboration can save everyone’s sanity. Whether it’s giving feedback on time (without needing to see someone’s face) or managing your team across time zones, Wayne serves up leadership advice with wit, practicality, and just the right amount of Zoom fatigue relatability. Key Highlights of Our Interview: Lessons from History’s Leaders “Genghis Khan ruled half the world without a Webex meeting. Julius Caesar? Brilliant in the field, but the office politics got him. Leading from afar isn’t new—it’s just evolved.” The Proximity Bias Trap “In hybrid setups, those in the office often get more attention and opportunities—intentionally or not. Awareness is key to ensure fairness across the team.” Bridging the Trust Gap “Leadership tasks haven’t changed, but relationships, trust, and proactive communication now require a conscious effort to avoid gaps and micromanagement.” The Synchronous-Asynchronous Dance “Effective hybrid work balances synchronous collaboration with asynchronous deep work. It’s not about clocking in at the same time but about delivering results with flexibility.” Intentionality Over Chaos “Hybrid solutions require intentionality. Schedule in-office days for meetings and collaboration. Leave remote days for focused work. Let people own their time to produce quality results.” _________________________ Connect with us: Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Wayne Turmel Chief Change Officer: Make Change Ambitiously. Experiential Human Intelligence for Growth Progressives Global Top 3% Podcast on Listen Notes World's #1 Career Podcast on Apple Top 1: US, CA, MX, IE, HU, AT, CH, FI, JP 2.5 Millions+ Downloads 50+ Countries --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<
Chapter 1: What is the main focus of long-distance leadership?
So how can Wayne and his team provide solutions as remote and hybrid work models continue to change shape? Let's find out. Thank you for having me. This is really exciting, Vince. Wayne, let's start with a bit of your background. How does your past experiences make you the perfect fit to write several books about long-distance leadership and communication for leaders?
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to intentionally stop myself from going down to the French rabbit holes because it has been a long winding trip. But the short answer is that I'm originally from Canada. While I was in school studying journalism as a stage performer and eventually, like most stage performers, had to get a real job in the real world.
And I started in the presentation skills arena because I learned at the age of eight how powerful it was to be able to communicate, that the number one factor in how you're perceived as an executive, as an employee, is your ability to communicate. I was always fascinated by that. And that's where I started from. And I started in traditional stand at the front of the room presentation skills.
But about 20 years ago, realized that electronic communication at the time, WebEx was the main tool. was going to change how we work and so while i was teaching and studying leadership and other things the electronic communication really became my focus so i've been studying that for over 20 years and then About 10 years ago, Gavin Eikenberry and I merged. He bought my company.
We merged his expertise with traditional, what we think of as leadership skills, and my expertise in the remote and electronic world. We now have three books later. Established ourselves really as leaders in the field, if that doesn't sound too arrogant. I was just going to say the big thing for me is that I learned so early that how you communicate is how you're perceived.
And so many people are subject matter experts. They're incredibly smart. But they struggle taking what's in their head and putting it in the minds of their customers, their employees, and other people. As consultants, you know your business. My job is to help you communicate that to the world.
What exactly does long-distance leadership mean? How would you define it?
Yeah, we get awfully hung up on, are my people remote? Are they in the office? Long-distance leadership is taking what we know makes good leaders and always has. and applying it when you are not always or sometimes ever in the same physical space as the people that you lead. And it's funny because there has always been some version of long-distance leadership.
Genghis Khan ruled half the world and never held a WebEx meeting. Julius Caesar did great out in the field. It's when he went back to the office that things went a little bit pear-shaped. So we've always had to find ways to do this. And as technology has changed over the years, it's becoming both more common and easier, technically easier to do.
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Chapter 2: How has long-distance leadership evolved over time?
Or we had a conversation a week ago and our next team meeting is two weeks from now. And I may not communicate with you during all that time. A lot can happen. If I have not developed a relationship with you where you're comfortable coming to me if you have a question, I'm going to assume that everything is fine because you didn't say anything.
As I said, what we have to do, the individual tasks that we have to do as leaders are the same as they've always been. But there is this piece of intentionality and making sure that we have the information flow that we need, but also the relationship that we need. Trust, proactivity, avoiding micromanagement. Those kinds of things are different in degree in a long distance work relationship.
And as we begin to settle into what we're calling hybrid work, which usually isn't hybrid work, but that's a different discussion, where you've got some people in the office and some people not, and some are in a couple of days, we develop another layer of challenges, which are things like proximity bias. where the people in the office get our attention.
People in the office are given perhaps more opportunities and considered more valuable than the people who are not. And that can impact the team negatively as well. One thing that we found before COVID was the rules for how do you get promoted and how do you get your performance evaluation? All those things favored the people who were in the office most often, intentionally or unintentionally.
And in a little bit, I think we're going to talk about some instances where companies make very specific decisions about these things. If you're consciously deciding that the people in the office get the advantage, that's fine. That's a legitimate business decision.
The problem is when it's not a conscious decision, when you think you're being equitable to all your employees, no matter where they are. And yet the people in the office feel very differently than the people who are working remotely. So there's a level of intentionality and mindfulness to remote work that good leaders are probably doing very well anyway.
And poor leaders are the ones where the gap becomes wider and wider between the good leaders and the poor leaders. Everybody listening to this has worked for people who are okay or maybe they're not okay. But we also immediately have those leaders in our lives that we go, that's the guy, right? That's the person that we want to follow. And when I say that guy, that could be gender neutral.
Well, of course, but that's the person I want to follow or that's the kind of leader I want to be. The first edition of the book came out in 2018. What we were really trying to do was help leaders realize that as stressful and different and unusual as this can feel, you can apply all the things that make you a remarkable leader in this new environment.
We want to help you be the leader that people point to as exceptional, interesting, and excellent.
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Chapter 3: What are the challenges of proximity bias in hybrid work?
Chapter 4: How can leaders provide feedback effectively in remote settings?
You decide all the meetings that I have or as many as possible are going to take place when we're all together. Right. As a leader, I'm going to do my coaching sessions when people are in the office and we can be face to face and on the days when they're not in the office.
I'm not going to have them on meetings from morning till night because that's when they're going to do that task completion, getting stuff done, deep focused thought that is best done uninterrupted. And if they want to do that at eight o'clock at night when the kids go to bed because they can think better, I don't care. As long as that report is in on time,
It's up to the quality and standard that we expect. And you are available to your teammates and adding to the value of the team. Now that's a hybrid solution as opposed to merely a compromise.
This interview feels super timely, especially with Amazon CEO announcing that starting in 2025, corporate staff will return to a five-day work week. There's been a lot of buzz around this. So far, the reaction has been mostly negative. Some people say it's the end of remote work. Others say they will quit over it. What's your personal take on this?
Or let's imagine if Amazon invited you to help with this transition, how would you apply your leadership models to this situation? Maybe you can give us a quick overview of your models and how they could fit into Amazon's latest development?
Okay, so the first thing is to say we can help them because even though I'm here talking about long distance leadership, the Kevin Eikenberry group as a whole focuses on leadership. And so there's all of Kevin's remarkable leadership, which is in the DNA of our remote content. And our remote content is totally consistent with the remarkable leadership. So we can address anything.
The second thing is that we often get lumped in with the remote work zealots, the people death to the office and the four day work week and all of that. And while we certainly embrace that as an option, we believe that every organization is different and needs to do what it does. Amazon intentionally. has a very 20th century factory model.
The nature of what they do, it's 90% warehouses and deliveries. Those are in-person, pick it up, stock the shelves, in-person functions. They also, by the way, have 150% turnover every year. They churn and burn people in half throughout their entire history. That is their business. business model.
And so if they decide this is what we're going to do, it's easy to say we're coming back to the office. And so we have no remote employees, but that's not true. If I am a regional manager, I might have employees in 12 different warehouses. We are not physically together. We might be working the same hours, but I can't see what you're doing in each of those locations.
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Chapter 5: What intentional strategies can improve hybrid work dynamics?
I've also experienced the evolution of technology from working without a BlackBerry, then with a BlackBerry, and later moving on to other devices. now as an entrepreneur to work with people from all over. I've noticed that in the US, remote work has become a very contentious issue. Whereas here in Asia or in Hong Kong is a different story. Hong Kong is a dense, highly populated city.
And the concept of remote work doesn't carry the same weight. Many people just head back to the office as the living spaces here are typically smaller than in the U.S. For those with families or children, the office actually becomes the preferred place to get work done.
Again, what are your individual circumstances? The remote work conversation in the U.S. is very different than it is in Western Europe and Asia, because you're right. People in the U.S. say, I have a spare room, and that's where I do my office. If I live in Tokyo, what's a spare room? I just think...
and it gets back to amazon even in amazon i talked to somebody in seattle yesterday and they went oh great if amazon really does this i don't work for amazon but they've just added 15 minutes to my commute because the traffic around the amazon headquarters is already a nightmare it's going to become so much worse
So the people that say I have to drive to work and now it's an extra half hour out of my life may decide to work from home more often. There are ripple effects, and this goes back to what we were talking about, that nobody really knows what the new normal is going to be because we're going through these changes.
The second thing that is really important to what you said is I've always worked remotely because of my circumstances, and that's really critical. We've always been able to make it work. I believe William Burroughs said, the future is here, it's just not widely distributable.
And what we found during COVID was the people like you, like me, who had always been working remotely due to our circumstances, what's the big deal? But people who had never worked in that environment got lost into the deep end of the pool and had to figure it out. We're going through this period where the people who learned it during COVID got very surprised.
A lot of senior leaders got very fooled. They said, oh, there will be no employee engagement. People won't get their work done. In the first six months of the pandemic, when more people went home, employee engagement actually went up. Productivity did not drop off nearly as much as people expected it to. So our assumptions pre-2020 are now being examined and tested and applied in different ways.
And so it's going to be very interesting for the next few years while we figure out what work looks like. Jamie Dimon made a very famous speech. He said, starting immediately, we want everybody back in the office. If you choose to work remotely, we will continue to pay you as long as you do your job. but you have taken yourself off the career track.
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