Chief Change Officer
#332 Kevin Eikenberry: How Great Leaders Flex Without Losing Themselves — Part Two
Wed, 30 Apr 2025
This episode offers you $79 worth of value—completely free. Read till the end for the gift.In Part 2, Kevin introduces the core ideas behind his latest book, Flexible Leadership. He explains why leading isn’t about finding the perfect style—it’s about flexing based on the situation without abandoning your principles. We break down how intention, context, and flexors all work together, why rigid leadership labels backfire, and why the best leaders never stop adjusting how they show up.Key Highlights of Our Interview:Why Human Nature Hasn’t Changed“The tools have changed. People haven’t.”Start with Intention“Flexibility doesn’t mean random. It means choosing your leadership moves on purpose.”Context Is Everything“If you don’t read the situation right, no style will save you.”Flexors, Not Labels“You’re not just a ‘visionary’ or a ‘coach.’ Labels can help, but they can also trap.”Compliance vs. Commitment“Sometimes you need quick compliance. Sometimes you need lasting commitment. Know what you’re asking for.”____________________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Kevin EikenberryYour $79 free gift is here for you to accept -- not a scam, it's a personal gift from Kevin to you. --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<
Chapter 1: What is flexible leadership?
Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist humility for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Kevin Aikenberry didn't take the usual road into leadership.
He started on a farm in Michigan, feeding hogs, pulling fertilizer, and learning the basics of discipline and responsibility before he ever set foot in a corporate office. Today, he's the founder of the Kevin Aikenberry Group. and one of the top leadership thinkers in the US.
He is the author of Remarkable Leadership, From Bot to Boss, The Long Distance Leader, The Long Distance Teammate, The Long Distance Team, and his newest book, Flexible Leadership. In this two-part series, we talk about flexible leadership,
why rigid styles backfire, how human nature stays the same even when the technology and the tools change, and what it really takes to lead when the old playbooks don't fit anymore. Let's jump right in.
Chapter 2: Why do rigid leadership styles backfire?
You know, I believe Vince is the best work I've done, and I think hopefully can be the most impactful work I've done. Because, you know, the subtitle of the book says, navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. And certainly we're in a world that's more uncertain than ever. And so it's super important for us to think about that and acknowledge that.
And if the world is changing and uncertain today, That means that we likely need to do something different as those things change. And I'm trying to give people a playbook to think a little bit differently about what they need to do to lead in and through that uncertainty.
Whenever a guest sends me the book, I always make sure to at least skim through it carefully. I read pretty fast, so while I might not promise to study every page in detail, I make sure to get a strong sense of the work. Now, looking at your book right here, there's one sentence from the introduction that really caught my eye. Let me read it out loud. Everything seems to be changing.
Yet the most important things aren't changing at all. The words aren't changing at all are written in italics. So my immediate question to you is what are those most important things that aren't changing
I'll answer that, but I want to say something else that's really important about change in general. And that is so often when we're leading a change or even thinking about change, we say, oh my gosh, everything is different. And the reality is it's almost never all different.
And in fact, we make the change efforts harder when we only talk about what's changing and don't talk about what's the same. So the first thing I think is an important point is that we're introducing a new process in our organization. And one of the most important things we can do is say, okay, there's 12 steps in this process and we are drastically changing four of them.
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Chapter 3: How does intention affect leadership?
But everybody, eight of these steps aren't changing. And so we lower the anxiety level and we raise the clarity level simply by doing that and reminding people that not everything's changing. So there's an underlying truth there that is inside of that statement. But to your point directly. People have been leading other humans for centuries.
And while context is changing, which is a big part of the idea of this book, while context is changing, when I started leading 30 years ago, I did have a fax machine. I didn't have email yet quite, and I didn't have a website, and there weren't podcasts, and we could go on and on, and we didn't have the phones that we have now, all that stuff. But what was the same as now is that
Teams behave in certain ways based on team dynamics. And human beings are still human beings. Amazing, wonderful, remarkable, and messy. And all of that is still true, will continue to be true. And there are truths about leading. There are truths about influencing. There are truths about human behavior and group dynamics that aren't changing. And so when we try to say everything's changing,
We are missing the boat and losing sight of the foundational stuff. Your values as a leader are likely not changing. And those most important things, you and Wayne talked about the long distance leader. And in that book, we say rule number one is think leadership first, location second. And most people want to flip that around. And say, oh my gosh, it's all different. Nope, it's leadership.
Chapter 4: What remains constant in leadership despite change?
And then the nuances that are important based on the fact that we're not in the same place matter a lot. But we got to start with what's not changing and probably not going to change. Certainly not in my lifetime.
I completely agree with you, especially when it comes to human nature and all the biases we carry. Psychology is different. argue that there are thousands, not hundreds of biases. We're emotional, we're flawed, and sometimes we don't act rationally simply because we don't feel like it. And that alone can be a bias.
That's why, like you said, even though our tools have evolved from Mac machines to smartphones to AI, the fundamentals haven't changed. In fact, this reminds me of what I observed in the education technology space before COVID. Some entrepreneurs call it digital transformation, when all they really did was transfer textbooks onto a digital platform. That's not much of a transformation.
That is digitalization. Learning on the phone and learning in person are not the same. In a tech-driven world, we still need that human element. We need the personal connection, the understanding, the guidance, the nuance. So yes, a lot of things don't need to change. And like you said, even if one important step changes, the other 11 might stay the same.
But for any transformation to work, everything still needs to move in sync.
Yep, I agree. I'll just take an example from what you're just talking about. And that is I was in a meeting with a bunch of clients last week, a listening session. And there was all this conversation like all of our people want to learn now by watching a three minute video. They didn't say this, but fundamentally the world is changing because now it's all about a three minute video.
And I would say no, because what people have wanted forever is give me a way to access quickly what I need to know to do this job right now. And if you'd given people the ability to watch someone else do it next to them 10 years ago, 20 years ago, that's what they wanted.
And now if that person can't be next to them, but is on this phone on a video that's easily created, that the fundamental need for people to see a demonstration and to get advice from someone in like real time that is practical for their needs, that hasn't changed. All that changed was how we were able to deliver it. And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Yes, the medium in that particular case, the medium has changed. And I'm not disagreeing with that person who said my employees would like to have a three, four, five minute video to help them with this task. I agree. I do it, too. But the core idea of how we learn and what we would value in that hasn't really changed. And that's that I think is important.
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Chapter 5: How does context influence leadership decisions?
All of that requires us to interact with our team differently, make some, maybe make some different decisions. And so that's context. So intention plus context plus flexors. And so we've identified a bunch of things where, how do we, On what dimension might we need to flex? So I'm guessing that you want to talk a little bit more about that.
But it's those three things together that allow us to be more flexible as a leader. In other words, I recognize it's possible and even perhaps more effective for me to flex. And then secondly, what does the situation tell me or dictate to me that would lead me to flex? And then in what ways might I be able to flex?
I'll definitely ask you more about flexors in a moment. That part really caught my attention. When I saw the term flexor, immediately I thought of muscle. How we stretch, adapt, and train them over time. And yes, our brain is a muscle too. I used to play tennis, and I remember how important muscle memory was. that repetitive motion becomes second nature. So I'll circle back to that.
But before we go there, let me share how I personally interpret your model. Intention to me is about willpower, is the conscious choice to take action or not. For instance, when I started the show, I told myself I would hit 100 episodes by the end of the first year. That was my intention. But now, already 14 months after the show was born, it's over 300 episodes.
I set my focus and fully committed to it. Then there's context. which I see as the situation or environment we're operating in. In your book, you break that down across a few dimensions, like complexity, uncertainty, or how much is known versus unknown. And that makes sense because in real life, we often focus only on what is in front of us. but that's always a bigger picture.
Variables we can control or things we aren't even aware of yet. And that brings us to the flexor.
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. So again, intention is making a conscious choice to say, what's the best approach here? Rather than, to your point, relying on muscle memory, relying on our natural habits. And the other thing that I talk about early in the book that we haven't mentioned that probably should, and that is that
Many of us, many of you who are listening have taken some or maybe several assessments. You've taken a strength finder. You've taken a Myers-Briggs or a DISC. You've taken some sort of leadership style assessment. And so you have your strengths. You have your style. You have those things. And those things are very helpful. Until they're not. And they're helpful when they help us.
See, all of those are models and models are a simplification of the world. And what we too often do is we take the model and we make the model truth. We lose the complexity and we lean into the model. And not only that, but now we identify with that style as who I am and how I lead. And if I am identifying myself by this style or approach, the ability for me to flex is dampened significantly.
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Chapter 6: What are flexors in leadership?
And sometimes we might be left of center, sometimes we might be right of center for a given situation in order for us to actually get agreement enough to move forward, right? And again, I don't wanna make this a political conversation, but if you wanna think about it in that context, right? So yeah, everything else being equal, I'd rather have people be committed.
And yet sometimes all I need is for people to say, I'm in, let's go, let's do this. I don't need to have people saying, man, this is the greatest thing ever. I just didn't need to have people saying, I'm glad we know where we're headed. And if we stay there all the time, I know where I'm headed at least. That's not where we want to be all the time forever.
But in that moment, that might be the most expedient moment. effective and productive thing for us to do. Even though my tendency, my natural inclination might be, I really need to build commitment around this decision. No, at this moment, all we need is for everyone to say, we can follow this direction. Let's go.
One thing that really stands out in your book is how you structure it into three parts. Mindset, skillset, and haphazard. A lot of leadership books focus mostly on mindset, or sometimes just a specific skill or set of habits. But you've laid out all three. Is that meant to be a sequence? Mindset first, then skills, and finally habits?
And how do you see those layers working together to make flexible leadership? more sustainable, especially when we need to flex based on different contexts.
There are, as you mentioned, great books written about what we are really learning and what we know about how the brain works around habits. What we've learned about that in the last 15 years has really exploded. And so there's been great books. Atomic Habits certainly being one of those by James Clear, although not the only, is a great book around this idea.
And I lean in to James's book in this book by making some comments and connecting to some of his ideas. The big thing I'm after here is, and I think you're right, there are certainly some books about mindset, but they're basically a whole book about mindset. And there are certainly books about habits, and we just talked about one of those there.
But most leadership books are about, you ought to do these things. They're mostly about skills. And so what I've tried to do is say, the skills alone are not enough. Because even if you understand and can apply them, if you don't believe they will help you, you will never apply them. Why would you? And if you have them in your little toolkit...
But they gather dust and rust because you never try them. What's the point? I believe that for us to be successful in as a leader developing our skills, we must develop first the mindset that matches the skill set and then we must move toward a habit set. And if we're doing it organizationally, we need to think about that more than just here's the tools I want you to have, Mr. or Ms. Leader.
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Chapter 7: How can leaders adapt in uncertain times?
One professor, whose name is Nick Apley, said that 70 to 80% of behavior in organizations is shaped by the environment, not individual traits. So as a CEO or leader, the goal isn't just to hire the smartest people. which is the usual saying, instead is to build the kind of environment that brings out the right, the best fit behaviors for the whole organization. That really stays with me.
100%, yeah, 100%.
As we are concluding, is there anything you would really like to add? Maybe a key message we didn't touch on yet. or something you want to leave the audience with to close out our conversation?
Yeah, I love that question. I ask that on my podcast all the time. What did I ask that I should have? And I think you did a great job, and we obviously covered a lot of ground. I just want to go back to this idea that I'm guessing that if you're listening to this show, that you are... dedicated to wanting to be a better leader. Otherwise, you wouldn't be listening to this.
You'd be listening or watching something else. And we're both thankful for you to be dedicated and interested in being more effective leaders. And what I really hope is that you find that what you heard here helps you think about that a little differently.
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Chapter 8: What is the significance of understanding human nature in leadership?
And so I hope that you don't get too locked into whatever your style or approach is and say, maybe, just maybe, probably there are times when I need to flex what I do because I don't need to change the things that aren't changing. but I need to change the how. The why and the what of leading is not changing nearly as much as our need to change the how of our approach in any given time.
In my book, Remarkable Leadership, a number of years ago, I wrote that as we become a better leader, we become a better human being and vice versa. And so I do believe that the things that we've talked about today absolutely apply in all parts of our lives. It's just that as a leader,
The things that we do and the choices that we make have such leverage for others that it's especially important that we think about them. So I hope that this has been useful, Vince, for everyone in that way and giving them that thought a little bit more clearly.
Kevin, thank you so much for staying with us, sparing one whole hour to share honestly your human intelligence in Flexible Leadership.
I appreciate that. I'd be happy to come back anytime. And so for everyone who's here before we go, before I go, I just want to tell you that because Vince has invited me here and you've chosen to listen, I have a gift for you. And that gift you can find at kevineikenberry.com slash gift. And what I have for you there, there's information there about the book Flexible Leadership.
And of course, if you've written that name down or have in your head, you can go find it and buy it wherever you buy books. But if you go to kevineikenberry.com slash gift, What I have for you there is a chance to have a free, to have the chance to use our masterclass on building confidence in ourselves and others that we sell every day for $79.
But for you, because you're listening to us here, it's my gift to you. I hope you'll take advantage of that. Kevin, I agree. Slash gift.
Wow. $79 worth of value. Completely free. That's not what I expected. Thank you so much, Kevin. What a nice surprise. I'll make sure to include that in the show notes. That brings our conversation to a close. Kevin reminds us that flexible leadership isn't about losing your values. It's about applying them in ways that actually work. Context changes. People change.
But real leadership stays grounded in knowing when and how to flex. Until next time, take care.
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