Chief Change Officer
#244 Lisa Bodell: The Future is Simple—If We Stop Overcomplicating Everything — Part Two
Wed, 19 Mar 2025
What if the biggest barrier to innovation isn’t a lack of ideas—but too much unnecessary work? As the CEO of FutureThink, Lisa Bodell has spent years helping companies cut through the clutter and focus on what actually matters. From eliminating pointless meetings to ditching outdated processes, she’s on a mission to make simplicity a competitive advantage.In Part 2, Lisa takes us behind the scenes of her work with organizations like Google, Pfizer, and Amazon to help them remove, not add. She also explains why mental clarity and simplicity are just as important at a personal level—and how she applies these principles to her own life.Key Highlights of Our Interview:Kill a Stupid Rule – “Pfizer realized one of their biggest problems wasn’t innovation—it was getting things done.” How eliminating bad rules changed the company’s culture.Why Simplicity Fuels Innovation – “We don’t have a shortage of ideas. We have a shortage of time to think.” The surprising truth about why most teams struggle with creativity.The Hustle Trap – “Busy doesn’t mean productive. It just means you’re overwhelmed.” How overwork and hustle culture are hurting both employees and businesses.Applying Simplicity to Your Own Life – “Simplicity isn’t about organizing—it’s about removing the stuff that clutters your mind.” Why Lisa swears by decluttering for mental clarity.The Future of Human Skills – “AI is great at giving answers. But humans are great at asking the right questions.” Why skills like curiosity, resilience, and creativity will be more valuable than ever.______________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guests: Lisa Bodell______________________--Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.10 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.130,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today. --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.12 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>140,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<
Chapter 1: What is the focus of Lisa Bodell's work on simplicity?
My guest is Lisa Burdell, the top 40 global speaker on simplification, innovation, and change, as well as the CEO of FutureThink. She's helped companies like Google and Pfizer cut through the clutter, kill pointless rules, and actually get things done. In this two-part series, we'll dive into her journey, how she went from advertising to futurism, why most organizations resist change,
and how simplicity is the secret weapon for real innovation. We'll also unpack why AI won't replace human skills, but overcomplicated systems just might. If you've ever sat in a meeting thinking this could have been an email, you won't want to miss this one. Let's get started. Simplicity matters not just for organizations and teams to work more efficient.
Simplicity matters not just for organizations and teams to work more efficiently and productively, but also for us as individuals. When we first met, you mentioned that this concept applies to everyone. And I completely agree. Especially in today's world, social media, endless noise, misinformation is super overwhelming.
And with mental health being a major issue, simplifying our lives feels more important than ever. So how can we do that? How can we personally practice simplicity in a way that helps us stay focused, clear-headed, and mentally strong?
Chapter 2: How can individuals practice simplicity in their lives?
I think, first of all, Just deciding that you want to is helpful, right? Because I think a lot of people put up with chaos because they feel that it's part of hustle culture. It's busy, right? And busy makes us feel valuable. I think a lot of people also just put up with simplicity, excuse me, complexity, because they feel that it makes them valuable by doing more.
They typically are rewarded for doing more, not valuable. And they think that they can multitask their way through it, and they can't. It's not just that work is at a breaking point, people are. And so being able to set that you want to simplify is the first step. The second thing is defining what meaningful work is.
And so as an individual, it would be really helpful to write down all the things that you do in a typical month. And circle the ones that you think are actually meaningful, valuable. And what you'll find is that not many of them are. They're obligations. They're necessary work of work things, status meetings, reports, all that.
The things that aren't circled, that aren't valuable, you really have to take a hard look at and say, can I get rid of some of these? Can I change the frequency on them? Can I put them on a time diet? And what that forces you to do is really think about why you do what you do. We don't question the way we work. And What happens is typically we get very defensive.
Chapter 3: What are practical steps to eliminate unnecessary work?
We get very defensive because we think there's nothing we can get rid of and that's not true. The other thing that we, once you look through your list and you try to get rid of things or change things that you do, the other, the second half to the exercise is then defining what do you wish you could do?
What do you want to spend your, if you just don't like what you're doing, then what do you wish you were doing? And I don't mean like changing your job. What don't you like about your job? What do you wish you were doing more of in your job that you were hired to do? That's going to help you define what meaningful work is to you.
So that kind of gives you a compass and that allows you to make better choices with your time. The last thing I would say to people, not just deciding you want to do it and then defining it, is really being good about deleting things. And deleting things means saying no. And if you can't say no to meetings or to reports or being included, opt out a couple times and see what happens.
Start using the phrase yes if. And the reason that's good is we always think we have to yes and things. In a creative setting, yes and building on is great. In a work setting, it's bad because you are constantly adding. Yes if is if someone asks you to do things, put boundaries on it. Don't just... Make it a transaction with them. It's not okay for someone to take your time.
So say, sure, I can do that if you do something for me. I can do it in this timeline. I can make something else. Not a priority, right? There's trade-offs. And I think that starts to teach people that when you request other people's time, you better be willing to know what you're willing to trade off for it. And those are some simple things to get started.
Yeah, as you were explaining, it reminded me of my own corporate days. Looking back, I think a big reason I burnt out was because I did not practice some of the things we just mentioned. Saying no, setting boundaries, not taking on everything that came my way. And that hustle culture we saw over the last 10 years, especially in tech and entrepreneurship, only made it worse.
Everyone was always on the go, jumping from meeting to meeting, catching flights, attached to their phones as if being constantly busy meant being successful. But these same ideas about simplicity apply to personal life too. Half the things we own, we don't even need to buy them. And if we buy them but never use them, they just turn into clutter.
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Chapter 4: Why is decluttering important for mental clarity?
Even small things like deleting old files, clearing out storage make a difference. Sure, maybe you have a big house, a basement full of stuff, but it is not useful. What is the point? I was just talking to a friend about getting rid of things before a bag moves, and it really hit me. Simplicity is key.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that we can do personally at home too, outside of work. And it's easy that you say, it's interesting that you say this because we do tend to think that even in our homes, more is better collecting those kinds of things. It's really, I think it's cathartic. I am a really big organizer, but I'm a big purger.
I like to get rid of things and only keep the things that have meaning. And one of the best things like that Marie Kondo ever did was, and this is a key difference. She didn't just organize things, right? Because being organized is not being simplified. Those are different. She didn't go in and just organize your closet.
She got rid of the things that were cluttering it up, that were getting in the way of the things that you enjoyed. And then organized everything, what was left. And that's the key thing for people is it's not about organizing. It's about simplifying. And getting rid of it is really important. If you could just go through and get rid of half your stuff, your life would transform.
I'd even say get rid of 10% of your stuff. Your life would transform. The weight comes off you because you feel less of a mental heaviness being burdened by things that don't add any value to your life. They clutter you from using the things that have meaning. you will feel more relaxed because that's the secret about simplicity, which is simplicity is not about organizing.
It is about focusing on what matters and it is about being able to use more of what matters. That includes your time. The other thing is it is a You see it in yourself and you see it at work. It impacts the culture because people feel more valued. They're spending their time on things that they feel are worth it. It is a mental health imperative. People feel less stressed. They feel more focused.
They feel happier when things are simplified. And that's important for us as people and as leaders to know as well.
Let's move on to something closely related. Mental health, productivity, and of course, the future. Earlier, you mentioned how everyone these days calls themselves an AI expert. But the reality is, AI isn't just hype. It's not a passing trend. It is a new paradigm, a new economy, and it's here to stay. Now, you and I are on the same page about this.
Human skills, or what I call human intelligence, are going to become more important, not less. In fact, I believe they will become a premium asset while technology itself becomes a commodity. Think about it. Apps, automation, AI tools, they are all becoming more accessible, more standardized.
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Chapter 5: What is the role of human skills in the age of AI?
But deep human skills like critical thinking, independent thinking, storytelling, problem solving, connecting with people, those are irreplaceable. Those are unique. The challenge, though, is that we've lost a lot of these skills over the last 10, 20, even 30 years. I talk about this often on my show. How social media, for example, has contributed to this decline.
We've lost the art of thinking, writing, and real human connection. Lisa, I know this is something you think about a lot. Looking ahead, how do you see this playing out? How can we rediscover and nurture our human skills in a world increasingly dominated by AI? What needs to change?
I think it has never been more important for us to build human skills because AI will be able to do lots of tasks for us. But what it can't do are the things that, yet, the things that are inherently human. Being curious, right? Asking the right question, right, with prompts. AI can give you lots of answers, but you have to know how to ask good questions. Being very creative.
AI, I'm a writer, and I put things into AI all the time, into ChatGPT or into Gemini. And it gets you a good start and it can organize my thinking, but I'm a better writer. I'm more human. I can connect on a meaning level. It also isn't good with humor or play on words. those little nuances that only humans can relate to.
So I think teaching those kinds of skills that are creative, curious, agility, empathy, those are really great skills that AI can't give you yet. And I think it's never been more important to teach those as part of leaders at every level. I hope that companies start to shift towards that. There's too much depth in technical skills and not enough in human skills.
As you were sharing, I started thinking about how school used to be, how we had all these different subjects, mathematics, English, French, history, biology, chemistry. Some of us love math, some hate it, some are naturally good at languages or humanities. Now, imagine if schools today didn't just teach subjects, but instead focused on specific human skills.
Curiosity, critical thinking, problem solving, empathy, adaptability. Just like some kids are naturally drawn to math or writing. Maybe some will be more inclined towards curiosity as a skill, while others might naturally excel in problem solving.
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Chapter 6: How can education systems foster essential human skills?
If we started recognizing human skills as areas of talent, just like academic subjects, it could completely reshape the way we educate not just kids, but also working professionals. Maybe that's part of the future of learning. a shift from memorizing subjects to mastering the skills that truly set us apart in an AI-centric world.
We've got a good approach, I'll say, because this is what we do. We help people be future ready, that's what we like to say, by teaching these human-centered skills or what we call power skills. They used to be called soft skills, right? I think that's a passe term now, you know, because they're not soft makes them seem weak.
And actually, I believe these human-centered skills are what make you stronger. That's important to know. And they are less skill. They are skills, but they're more mindsets, to your point. Having an agility mindset, a resilience approach, a curiosity mindset. Those are different than having an AI skill because they're how you approach certain things.
We teach people by there's the reason why they're important. We first have people the why. And then we actually give people techniques to do it and we we apply it to work. That's how you use these skills.
So, for example, if you want people to be curious, we teach them the technique around asking killer questions and killer questions is about how do you learn how to ask really good open ended questions that are provocative, creative and really make you think. And there's certain ways to stem a question and then we apply it to work.
We use real business challenges and we teach them by doing it over and over again, how to actually be more curious. And so that's how we teach it, right? We give a technique and we apply it to multiple scenarios at work. We then let them go and do it for a while and we come back and coach them again three months later.
Because that's the thing about human skills is you have to try it, you have to recalibrate and then you have to try it again. And I think that approach really works for people. When you teach technical skills, you try it. Yeah, you adjust, but there's one way to do it. With human-centered skills, it depends on the personality and everyone has to find their own way with that skill.
If you're asking about what I would do differently for schools, I think actually applying these in schools is very important because if we learn them better at a young age, we'd be better prepared when we get out into the work world. I think there's a key thing we need to change within schools.
And schools right now, and I can only speak from my perspective on the West and the United States particularly, is that we are training people to be future employees. And what we should be doing is training them to be future humans. We're not raising employees. We're raising humans. And I'm always fascinated when you go into a school and they teach subject matter expertise.
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