Chief Change Officer
#238 Paul Austin on Rethinking Growth: Can Psychedelics Unlock Your Potential—Legally?
Sun, 16 Mar 2025
We’re joined by Paul Austin, CEO of Third Wave, who believes psychedelics can be powerful tools for transformation—when used responsibly. While these substances remain illegal in many places and are wrapped in ongoing medical and legal debates, Paul is on a mission to educate, not evangelize.As your host, I keep this forum open to diverse voices, not to pass judgment but to spark critical thinking. We explore the myths and realities of psychedelics—how they might enhance mental clarity, creativity, and personal growth, while also addressing safety concerns, legal roadblocks, and the importance of responsible use.Curious about how legalization and decriminalization efforts are unfolding globally? Check out this BBC article for a snapshot of what’s happening around the world.Key Highlights of Our Interview:The Real Risks of Psychedelics: Safety First“While psychedelics promise transformation, the biggest risk isn’t just physiological—it’s legal. These substances are still illegal in most places, so getting caught can have serious consequences. Beyond that, psychedelics can create instability if not handled with the right support and a safe environment.”Mindset Matters: Intention in Psychedelic Use“The real benefits of psychedelics start with intention. Using them to learn, grow, or heal can unlock deep insights, but if it’s just to escape reality, the impact is far less meaningful. For anyone interested, working with a professional—be it a coach, therapist, or shaman—is essential. Preparation and a safe setting are crucial for a transformative experience.”The Five Elements for a Safe and Meaningful Psychedelic Journey“There are five essential elements: assessment, preparation, facilitation, integration, and microdosing. From asking the right questions to committing fully to the experience, each step helps build a safe and transformative path. Start low, go slow, and choose to step into this journey for yourself—not for anyone else.”Microdosing as a Catalyst, Not a Crutch“Microdosing isn’t about masking problems; it’s about creating neuroplasticity for real change. With commitment—two to three times a week for 30 days—you can catalyze significant shifts in mood, decision-making, and self-awareness. But this journey, like any transformation, relies on intention and responsibility. Microdosing is a tool, but you hold the reins to lasting growth.”_____________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guests: Paul Austin______________________--Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.10 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.130,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today. --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.12 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>140,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<
Chapter 1: What are the benefits of psychedelics in personal and leadership development?
Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist humility for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, We are diving into a topic that's sparking both excitement and debate, psychedelics.
My guest is Paul Austin, founder and CEO of Third Wave, a leading voice advocating for the responsible use of psychedelics, especially within the realms of personal and leadership development. Let me make this clear. While there's growing support for the benefits, psychedelics remained illegal in many places, and there's still much debate around the safety, legality, and medical impact.
But pause here to educate us on the potential advantages of psychedelics, especially when approached responsibly. We'll discuss microdosing and its potential to benefit a wide range of people, not only those dealing with mental or medical conditions. As the host of the show, I'm not here to judge my guests.
I offer a forum for diverse voices to share their ideas, thoughts, and approaches aimed at advancing humanity in a positive direction. I ask questions from different perspectives allowing you, our listeners, to draw your own conclusions from these conversations.
Here, I'll ask Paul to walk us through some of the common misunderstandings about microdosing and share insights into the ongoing legal and medical debates surrounding psychedelics. We'll also explore some essential safety considerations and responsible practices for those curious about this tool for personal development and leadership growth. Let's get started. Paul, good afternoon.
Welcome to my show. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Vince. It's 5.30, so the evening. Good evening to you. I know it's morning in Hong Kong. We're on opposite ends of the world at the moment, and that's why I love technology, because we can record podcasts like this while we're on totally opposite ends of the world. So it's great to be here with you.
Thank you. Yes, I'm still finishing my breakfast. But I wouldn't miss this interview for anything. Today, we are diving into a topic that is still pretty controversial, not just here in the US, but worldwide. It's one that comes with its own set of benefits and risks. Paul has been in this space long enough to call himself an expert. So I'm excited to get his insights.
But first thing first, Paul, can you tell us a bit about yourself? What have you done in the past? And how has those experiences shaped who you are and what you do today?
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Chapter 2: Who is Paul Austin and how did he become involved with psychedelics?
The story starts when I'm 16 years old and I grew up in a pretty traditional Midwest family in the United States, just outside of a city called Grand Rapids. And the Christian church was very central to my upbringing. And so every Sunday we would be at church, we would go to church. I was raised in a very sheltered environment.
But by the age of 15 or 16, I started to have some of those rebellious tendencies that many teenagers have. And I had a friend at the time who introduced me to cannabis. marijuana. And I experimented a little bit with cannabis at the age of 16. And soon after I experimented, my parents found out that I had been smoking cannabis.
And of course, they did not like this at all because it was an illegal drug, because they had been raised in the 70s when the war on drugs and a lot of the propaganda around drugs was very prevalent. And so they sat me down one Sunday after church And my dad looked at me and said, I haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident 30 years prior to this experience.
And so that obviously was so hard and difficult to hear. And it just showed how impactful this experience was to my parents. And so after that point in time, I knew that I couldn't necessarily be super open with my parents like so many teenagers about what I was up to and where I was going.
Now, fast forward a few years later, and that same friend who introduced me to cannabis then introduced me to psychedelics, which is going to be the main topic that we talk about today. And those early psychedelic experiences that I had at the age of 19 and 20 were very impactful. They helped me to recognize how much shame and guilt I had been conditioned into in my religious upbringing.
They helped me to recognize and realize that a lot of my negative self-talk and self-hatred was actually not my own, that I could choose to release it and move beyond it. But most importantly, they taught me that we as humans are just making up the rules as we go along, and that life is much more malleable
than we think it is and so when i started to work with psychedelics at a young age they really inspired me to think differently think in an unconventional manner and so at the age of 21 i moved to turkey where i taught english for a year and i soon became a digital nomad where i was traveling around the world working online building my first business which was a teaching english platform i taught a test called the toefl test
and at the age of 24 i was living in budapest with a couple friends experimenting with some lsd once again and we were talking about how psychedelics were becoming more talked about less stigmatized that because of some of the movement around cannabis in the united states a lot of clinical research that was coming out of institutions like johns hopkins and nyu and also because you had podcasters like tim ferriss and joe rogan who were openly talking about psychedelics culture was really re-evaluating these substances
And so in 2015, I started an educational platform called Third Wave that is focused on how can we help people understand both the benefits and risks of these misunderstood substances. And so for the last 10 years, I've now been building that out as a platform. We've reached over 25 million people with our educational materials. And for me, I believe psychedelics are a tool.
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Chapter 3: How can psychedelics be used responsibly?
Do you want to continue to be this way or do you want to shift and change? And so I think the most valuable part about psychedelics is they make it much easier to release dysfunctional behaviors and patterns, whether that's how we relate to our spouse, whether that's how we treat ourselves, our diet, our exercise, our sleep patterns, whether that might be how we communicate within our business.
So there's a lot of capacity then for psychedelics to facilitate change. And I think when I talk about psychedelics as a skill, that's the most important thing to focus on is those of us who are in leadership positions, who are creatives, who are change makers. We live in a world that is becoming increasingly uncertain every day. and we have to adapt to new circumstances all the time.
And so most commonly when I'm working with leaders, I'm helping them adapt, learn, grow, develop with an understanding that psychedelics make it easier. They don't do the work for you, right? Psychedelics are not a magic pill, but they are a catalyst to new patterns, new thoughts, and new behaviors.
I know you've written a book on microdosing. If I understand correctly, please clarify if needed. Over a course of, say, 30 or 45 days, I take a very small dose, about one-tenth of a standard dose, which offers certain benefits, as you described. But would you say it works more like a band-aid?
For example, during those 30 or 45 days, I might feel better, but after stopping, could those effects wear off? It's similar to taking painkiller. I may not feel the pain for a while, but the underlying issue might still be there. So is microdosing more of a short-term fix? And if so, how can we make its benefits more sustainable, ideally without any physiological or psychological risks?
Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say SSRIs like Prozac, Zoloft are much more, they tend to numb a lot more than when someone starts taking an antidepressant, a lot of the emotions or difficult emotions get pushed beneath the surface. Whereas with microdosing, What often can happen is some people immediately feel better.
They notice as they start microdosing, they have a better mood, they have more energy, they're getting better sleep. But for some people, microdosing, it acts as like an irritant in a way. So there's a catharsis. So if someone is anxious, they're going to be more aware of their anxiety. And at times that can be uncomfortable.
And so that's why I advise someone, if you're looking to microdose or work with psychedelics, work with a coach or therapist who can help you to navigate that because When you're starting to work with these substances, even at microdoses, there may be material, emotional material that starts to come to the surface that you've repressed for a very long time.
And so what I typically advise is you have to commit to doing this two or three times a week for at least a month. So just like with meditation, you don't just sit on the cushion once. meditate for 20 minutes and expect to be enlightened, right? When you start with meditation, you commit to at least 30 days straight of meditation before you make any assumptions about, is this helpful?
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Chapter 4: What are the historical and cultural backgrounds of psychedelic use?
That might mean quitting a job that's making you miserable. That might mean breaking up with a spouse or partner that is toxic. That might mean cutting out junk food that's keeping you really unhealthy, right? There are choices and decisions that we all can make that will help us to become healthier, better versions of ourselves. Microdosing just facilitates that process.
And what's beautiful about microdosing is even if you just stop, let's say you've microdosed two or three times a week for a month, if you just stop, there's no physical withdrawals. Some people do notice, as you talked about, that some of these challenges and issues may start to come back up. And so typically what I advise folks is take at least two weeks off,
feel into it get a sense of what else is coming back off and then if you feel like okay microdosing was helpful i want to continue with my protocol doing it two or three times per week i totally give the thumbs up because as vince change is not always immediate in life Sometimes a healing process or a transformational process may take three months, six months, a year.
I think what is most important if someone is microdosing is that they are committed to the path and process of growth, learning, and development. And they recognize that microdosing is just a tool to help them get there.
But ultimately, at the end of the day, it is their responsibility to make the changes in their lives that are going to help them feel better, have better relationships, have a better mood, have more energy, all these sorts of things.
Would it be fair to say that micro-dosing serves as a key? It unlocks potential solutions that might help us get unstuck when we feel trapped, like being locked in a room. From what I understand, Microdosing could help us first get out of that mental room, and while it might not immediately review the path forward, it offers a clearer space to start making those decisions.
Whether that means ending a toxic relationship, finding a new job, or even breathtaking career direction. Essentially, it seems like a powerful tool for gaining clarity and reclaiming a sense of control to move forward in a way that makes sense to us. Would you say that's a fair summary?
Yeah, that's a really good summary. I would say another good metaphor is to think of it as like when we go snowboarding or skiing. When we go up on a mountain and a bunch of people have gone down before us, we're just following the same paths, the same ruts that everyone else has gone down.
And typically when people feel stuck, when life is not working out well for them as they had hoped, when there's something irritating or frustrating, they're just following the same patterns and the same ruts. When we start to microdose or work with psychedelics, It's like a fresh layer of powder is dumped on the mountain.
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Chapter 5: What are the potential risks and limitations of using psychedelics?
And then you could slowly work your way up from there if you want. Now, when it comes to legality, neither of us are supporting anything illegal in this podcast. And so typically what I advise people is if you're interested in this, then go to Colorado, go to Oregon, go to the Netherlands, go to Costa Rica or Mexico, right? There are so many places where this is legal. where you can do it.
And because I know most of your audience is American, there is a lot of policy that is rapidly changing in the United States. In this next election, which is happening in just a few weeks, the state of Massachusetts is looking to legalize psychedelics. Soon after that, the state of Washington is looking at legalizing psychedelics.
There have been several cities like Oakland, Seattle, Detroit, Washington, D.C., that have decriminalized possession of psychedelics, meaning
you can have them yourself you can't sell them you can't distribute them but you can have them on your person you can use them as you wish and there's no criminal penalties for that either so the legal landscape is rapidly changing and so if someone is i'm interested in this and i have a family i have kids i don't want to be irresponsible i don't want to necessarily break the law usually my invitation is
Go to Third Wave because we have a ton of educational resources. And we also have a directory on Third Wave where we have retreat centers, clinics, therapists, coaches that you can work with and get in touch with a professional and start to explore, you know, if you're interested in this, how might you want to go about this? How might it be beneficial and supportive for you?
So you've mentioned a couple of great starting points. Start low and go slow is essential, especially for beginners who might feel uncertain given the controversies, legal risks, and potential side effects. If those convinced by the potential benefits but cautious about legality Going to states or countries where psychedelics are legal is another way to explore responsibly.
To wrap up our conversation, Paul, could you share more on some essential safety considerations and responsible practices we should keep in mind? What steps can help us approach this new tool for personal development and leadership growth with care and respect?
Yeah. So typically what I talk about are the five key elements. And so the five key elements are assessment. preparation, facilitation, integration, and microdosing. So if someone just remembers one thing from today, I would say start low and go slow would probably be the number one thing.
But number two would be the five key elements that you really want to work with a professional who provides a proper assessment, who provides an intake form, who asks you questions about who you are, about your history of trauma, about whether or not you have any experience with psychedelics or other contemplative practices. So that first thing should always be an assessment.
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