Chief Change Officer
#138 Career Moves That Pay: John Gates on Unlocking Your True Salary Potential
Tue, 14 Jan 2025
John Gates knows how to help you make the most of your compensation package, especially during career transitions. When preparing for this interview, I flipped through his book, ACT YOUR WAGE, and it took me back to my business school days studying negotiation. The key takeaway? Negotiations are about focusing on multiple elements, not just one number. But here’s the twist—unlike business negotiations, salary discussions are filled with emotions, fear, and anxiety. How can you move past those emotions, shift your mindset, and maximize your return during a career move? John shares the answers. Key Highlights of Our Interview: Coast-to-Coast Hustle: The Ups and Downs of Chasing the Corporate Dream “During that process of chasing the Fortune 500 career and climbing that ladder, I moved across the country many times. I was laid off several times. I know how terrifying it is to be laid off or separated from a company that once loved you, but now no longer needs you." From Prosecutor to Defense Attorney: Why Switching Sides Matters “I do view myself as a former prosecutor who became a defense attorney. I think the best defense attorneys are people who used to be prosecutors because they understand the tactics and strategy and what the other prosecutor is trying to achieve.” The Silver Bullet Effect: Practical Steps for Negotiation Success “I start teaching them how to have safe conversations about pay almost immediately. So, very experimentally, I will teach them and drill them and rehearse with them first.” Salary Negotiation 101: Gladiators Need Not Apply! “Know your worth and demand your worth. People say, figure out what you’re worth, insist upon that… When I hear that, what I see is high risk. It’s confrontational. It makes it seem like you’re going to be this gladiator… This sort of ultimatum strategy of ‘take it or leave it’ is problematic.” 6 Rules For Successful Salary Negotiation: 1.Do not put “open” or “negotiable” in the salary requirement field — Always put a number. 2.Reframe your salary number into a range during the phone screen — It’s important to shift into a range rather than sticking to a fixed number. 3.Shift the conversation from salary to total compensation — This includes understanding incentives and bonuses beyond the base salary. 4.Use AI tools like ChatGPT to prepare for interviews — This helps generate potential questions and practice responses. 5.Use interview time to sell yourself instead of satisfying curiosity — Focus on addressing their pain points and demonstrating your value. 6.Avoid moving the goalposts during negotiation — Present everything you want in one batch rather than one at a time to prevent putting your offer at risk. Connect with us: Host: Vince Chan | Guest: John Gates ______________________ --Chief Change Officer-- Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself. Open a World of Deep Human Intelligence for Growth Progressives, Visionary Underdogs, Transformation Gurus & Bold Hearts. 6 Million+ All-Time Downloads. Reaching 80+ Countries Daily. Global Top 3% Podcast. Top 10 US Business. Top 1 US Careers. >>>100,000+ subscribers are outgrowing. Act Today.<<< --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<
Chapter 1: What key insights does John Gates share about salary negotiations?
Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chan, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest, John Gates, is someone who can help you get the most out of your compensation packet, especially when you are making a career switch or transition.
When prepping for this interview, I skimmed through his book. It reminded me of my business school days studying negotiation. The concepts really aligned. Like in a negotiation, focusing on multiple elements instead of just zeroing in on one single number. But here's the challenge. Salary negotiations feel so much more personal.
Unlike business deals where you can stay strategic and detached, salary talks bring up fear, emotion, and anxiety. If you are a CFO or CEO negotiating a deal, it's different. You have a stake. but is not as personal as negotiating your own salary.
So my question is, with all the emotion tied up in these discussions, how do we break free from focusing on old numbers and truly maximize our return when making a career move? Let's find out together. John, good morning. Welcome to our show. How did you end up where you are today? What were the key transformation points?
Give us a quick overview of your personal and career journey, both the past and the present.
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Chapter 2: What personal experiences shaped John's career journey?
Thank you very much, Vince. I'm so excited to be here and eager to talk about all the secret stuff when it comes to pay negotiations, something most people want to know about. But first, you got to know about me. So that's fair. My career is an interesting one. I grew up really poor. And so I self-funded my college education working at Domino's Pizza. And I was one of these crazy guys that
I was very motivated to get through college as fast as possible. I had to earn money. I had a young family. So I ended up finishing two four-year degrees in two and a half years by taking 18 to 20 credits a term, working 30 hours a week at Domino's Pizza to self-fund it. It was a crazy actual burnout time. Young and poor and motivated and ambitious. That's the way it was for me.
So I began as a financial analyst and it was really strange. I got a job right out of college working for a high-tech company as a financial analyst. But two or three weeks before that job was to start, they rescinded all the job offers. And that was a terrible event in my life because I was planning to pursue this career. I had a young family to feed and support.
And now all of a sudden I was facing unemployment before I even got started. I ended up falling into being a recruiter by mistake. And I don't think recruiting is something that most people pursue on purpose. Most of the time you fall into it by mistake. You end up doing it because it's something you're good at. And I found out that I was really good at it.
So I started climbing the corporate ladder in the Fortune 500 as a technical recruiter. Very quickly got into leadership and eventually became head of global recruiting for multiple Fortune 500s. During that process, though, of chasing the Fortune 500 career and climbing that ladder, I moved many times. I was laid off several times.
And I know how terrifying it is to be laid off or separated from a company that once loved you, but now no longer needs you. That sucks when it happens, but... I moved from Oregon, my home state, to Virginia, about as far away from Oregon as you can get. Then I moved from Virginia to Alabama to take another job. Then from Alabama to Indiana for another job. Indiana to St. Louis, Missouri. St.
Louis to Texas. And then finally, Texas back to my home state of Oregon, which is where I am today. So during all that, I became known as a recruiting process fixer. Now this is some guy who comes in and fixes the problems like a car mechanic. Car is sputtering. It's not running to its full potential. We need to diagnose the issue and fix it. And so that's what I became known for during that time.
And. While I was the head of global recruiting, I trained hundreds of recruiters on how to share with people. I ended up overseeing about 75,000 job offers at all levels and in multiple industries. So that's where I have been. And ultimately came the salary coach.
You are a salary coach, which I see as an evergreen profession. Whether the market is up or down, you help people maximize their compensation packages. Many entrepreneurs, coaches, and tech founders start a business because they have faced the same problem. Learn the hard way and then turn it into a product or service.
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Chapter 3: How can you effectively negotiate your salary?
I guess the last mistake that I'd like to make or mention here is that some people think that negotiation starts when you get an offer. I think that negotiation is a process. And it's true, you begin negotiating when an offer is in your hand. However, there's a lot of positioning and prep work that goes into getting the best offer in the beginning.
I'll tell a story about a client that came to me recently and said, John, I just got a low ball offer. It's 30% less than what I thought I was going to get. And this person wasn't a client from the beginning. They called me right there at offer stage with the, with the low ball offer. And I started to explore it with this client and said, okay, tell me what you told them early in the process.
Like, how did you apply? What did you say when you applied? What did you say in the phone screen? Now tell me about your interview process. When you talked about money, how did you do that? Throughout all of these opportunities to discuss money and your worth and your value and the value that you're going to bring to their company.
Well, it turned out that he stepped on a whole bunch of landmines that he didn't even know was there. And it's the mistakes he made earlier in the process is what drove him to get this 30% lowball offer. Now, if you get a lowball offer like that, you can make a small adjustment. You can move up a little bit, but you're probably not moving that offer up 30%.
Think of it this way, like they just gave him a 72 Volkswagen Super Beetle and he wants a Mercedes. What we could probably do at this stage is paint the VW Beetle a different color. We can put some nice rims on it, but we're probably never getting him the Mercedes at this stage. They already believe that he's worthy of the Volkswagen Beetle.
Given your knowledge of the challenges job seekers typically face, can you walk us through your process for helping them? Do you start with a mindset change or focus on the overall goal first and work backward step by step?
That's a really interesting question. Where do I start? I think I start with some transparency. It's important to be transparent to get the most out of this. We have to acknowledge that we have fear and anxiety relating to money conversations. There's a lot at stake. And I think most people are afraid that if they answer these questions wrong, they'll be screened out.
They won't get a chance to interview. And if interviews are rare, the, the stakes multiply. The worst thing that can happen is you get all the way to the offer stage and now you start negotiating. And since you're negotiating, maybe the company gets frustrated with your approach and they rescind the offer. Now you've got to go back to your family, your friends, your support system.
And instead of celebrating, you have to tell them that you're starting over again. That's the worst disaster of all times. So I start off with some transparency. I want to understand their story, their personality, and their secret fears. And I reassure them. I have a very reassuring style and an encouraging style.
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Chapter 4: What common mistakes do people make in salary negotiations?
But I think that what's in the best interest of the client becomes evident really fast. I start teaching them how to have safe conversations about pay almost immediately. And so practical steps and grip that they can use. So experimentally, I will teach them and drill them and rehearse with them first. And then they actually try it in their next interaction.
And they very quickly are starting to see, wow, silver bullet after silver bullet. Now I know what to put in an application and my phone actually rings. Now I know how to say the right things in a phone screen and I advance to the interview without feeling like I have to lowball myself.
This builds their confidence that everything that I'm teaching them how to do is good and accurate, makes perfect sense. So over the course of time, then that usually results in a very strong offer for them. And when I first started this business, I did have a gain share fee model I thought was going to appeal to absolutely everybody.
In other words, my deal with my early clients was I'm not going to charge you a dime to work with me. And instead we're going to figure out how much you think you could get on your own without my help. And then we'll figure out where we landed together.
Setting the mutual goal to score above that, whether it was 15,000 or 150,000, I was going to take a small percentage of the gain and give them almost all the rest. And that seemed like a fair approach, but for a variety of reasons that failed, I think. People, and I discovered this along the way, Vince, a lot of people were reluctant.
Even though I was only taking a small percentage, they thought, what if my gain is $500,000? That bill could be really big, even though their gain was going to be several times larger. The uncertainty of not knowing what it would cost was an obstacle for a lot of people. And I didn't really anticipate that was going to be the case. So, you know, the podcast name here is Chief Change Officer.
And when you're an entrepreneur, you have to adapt to what the world is giving you. So I made a few adjustments there and now I'm in a new model where people can know exactly what it's going to cost before they begin the relationship. I can, I can spread payments out and what I make is not tied directly to how much we gain.
And that's for a few different reasons, but some of the stuff that we go after is hard to quantify. For example, if the company we're chasing after offers stock options, it's really hard to know what a stock option is worth without going to something like a black Scholes model or something like this. How much is three extra weeks of vacation time worth? How can we calculate the gain?
Essentially, I wanted to get aligned with the needs of my client, whatever their goals are, whether they're financial. Otherwise, we're going to go after every single thing that is important to them and get as much as we can. At the end of it, they're assured. that they got the best offer that they could get. We don't twist arms. We don't force companies to do anything uncomfortable.
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Chapter 5: How should fear influence your negotiation strategy?
If you ask for a hundred, you'll get a hundred. This is really useful in preparing to interview, just to warm your brain cells up. And then once you're in interviews, don't waste your questions on curiosity. At the end of every interview, usually there's five or six minutes and they'll say, what questions do you have for me?
A lot of times people ask questions about the benefits or the culture or things like that. You can satisfy your curiosity later. Use this time to sell yourself. It's a missed opportunity that most people miss. Don't be that person. Use this as a chance to distinguish yourself by asking the right questions and selling yourself.
So you want to find out what their biggest problems and pain points are. during this time and then say something strong. If you hire me, you don't have to worry about that pain anymore because, and then you describe your experience. I fixed that problem before. This is how I did that. Don't be ultimatums. That's bad. We talked about that before and don't move the goalposts.
What I mean by that is like I had a client very recently, an executive level client. We've gone through a couple of stages of negotiation, got pretty close to a final agreement. And he said, you know what? We haven't asked them to move the equity. I feel like we can move the equity up. I think we should go after more stock.
and we're negotiating with the ceo the ceo has already gone to a compensation committee of the board of directors to get the offer approved um to the point where you have one and a half bites at the apple we already took our full bite we can do a tiny modification but we're To ask for more equity now would make the CEO feel like he's moving the goalposts.
If I say yes to this, what's the next thing he's going to ask for? So the best strategy here is to present what you want in a batch, not one at a time. Otherwise, it can put your offer at risk.
Thank you for coming, John. Congratulations on your new book. The title is At Your Wage. I hope you enjoyed our interview.
It was so much fun, Vince.
Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Shen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
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