FDR and Winston Churchill spent 113 days in each others' company during WWII. FDR even saw Churchill naked. But how close were the pair in personality and in strategy? How did the personal relationship between these two giants of history shape the war? And why, in the end, did Churchill see it as a failure?Dan Snow, of our sister podcast 'Dan Snow's History Hit', joins Don to talk about the most 'Special Relationship' of all.Produced by Freddy Chick. Edited by Aidan Lonergan. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here.All music from Epidemic Sounds.American History Hit is a History Hit podcast.
Chapter 1: How did FDR and Churchill's relationship influence WWII?
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December 24th, 1943. Once more, we find President Franklin D. Roosevelt seated at his microphone. As we heard last week, the President had been meeting with Allied leaders across Europe and beyond. Among them was British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, his steadfast partner in the war effort. Churchill hatte vor sechs Tagen im Dezember eine Fieber.
Aber die Konferenzen haben sich geplant und waren ein Erfolg. Die besondere Beziehung zwischen Roosevelt und Churchill, die in der Kriegsrunde geformt wurde, wurde wiedereröffnet. Sie setzten den Stand für ihre fortschrittliche Zusammenarbeit in der Kampf gegen die Tyrannie.
Natürlich, wie ihr alle wisst, haben Mr. Churchill und ich viele Male vorher getroffen. And we know and understand each other very well. Indeed, Mr. Churchill has become known and beloved by many millions of Americans. And the heartfelt prayers of all of us have been with this great citizen of the world in his recent serious illness.
Greetings all, welcome to American History Hit. I'm Don Wildman. The superlatives used to describe the British leader Winston Churchill, indomitable, resolute, tenacious, defender of the empire, are often followed by disparaging ones, arrogant, imperious, warmonger, autocrat. Es ist ein regelmäßiger Fassad der großen Figuren der Geschichte, zwei Seiten der selben Karte.
Aber Churchill, der mit Welteventen intersektiert war, als ob Destinys Nummer sein musste, benötigte diese kontradiktorischen Träte, sicherlich als die Zweite Weltkrieg unvermeidbar wurde. Ohne Churchill gibt es keine Antwort auf Hitler. Die Briten verabschieden sich und kämpfen nicht. Without Churchill, a reluctant US is not drawn into the conflict.
It was Churchill's special relationship with the equally imperious Franklin Roosevelt that forged the alliance that finally dismantled the German war machine. And 80 years on, we would not be living in the free world we enjoy today without it. Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt are still the rulers, against which all leaders in crisis are measured.
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Chapter 2: What were the challenges faced by Britain in 1940?
He'd been a journalist before that. So they walk both lines, both of these guys. It's really interesting.
Yeah, we sometimes think, it's so true, man. We sometimes think of these guys as old school, patrician, pre-internet, pre-TV, grand strategists. These two were ferocious PR guys. They knew exactly what was going on. They knew exactly how to move democratic audiences one way or another.
You mentioned this before, I just want to circle back. Why couldn't Britain take on Germany itself? I mean, it's a major industrial power at this time, large population. Couldn't they have beaten Germany?
The Brits faced a very tough battle against Germany. They were two equally matched prize fighters. They would have been punch-runk by the end. I mean, you're going to end up in a situation not unlike the Napoleonic Wars, where Britain wouldn't have been able to get an army ashore on the continent to take on the German war machine.
But the Germans wouldn't be able to build a fleet to cross the... It's the same problem Napoleon's got, right? So you're going to end up with this kind of maritime power against this continental European power. And it's going to be a bit of a stalemate. Now, Germany conquered this vast empire in Europe from the biggest since the Caesars, right?
So you've got from the border of France to the Vistula River in what is now Poland. If he'd actually exploited that empire and kind of mobilized it in an effective way, instead actually it was... Ja, ja, dieses massive Headstart.
It really is important to recognize 1940. Americans don't think of this. For us, usually, World War II begins on December 7, 1941, when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor. But the fact is, these events that happened 1939 until 1941 had a lot to do with Churchill and Roosevelt talking to each other and developing these programs that end up in Lend-Lease and so forth. Und das ist, wo wir hinkehren.
Aber du musst verstehen, in der britischen Welt, du sprichst über die Überzeugung, dass Deutschland hatte, dass sie sie invadieren könnten, so wie sie Frankreich und Deutschland und Holland und den Rest von ihnen hatten. Sie würden einfach in England gehen. Aber am 15. September, was der Krieg der Briten am Tag ist, finden sie heraus, dass das nicht möglich sein wird durch ihre Luftwaffe.
Also beginnen sie plötzlich den Blitz. Und der Blitz geht für 52 Tage weiter. This is the fall of 1940. I'm reviewing all of this to tell you that there's this enormous momentum to Winston Churchill that he's bringing to FDR that the American people are not really aware of. They see it in the news, but we don't have that kind of coverage that we, you know, Edward R. Murrow ends up going over.
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Chapter 3: Why did Churchill believe he needed American support?
Das ist alles, you know, FDR is working behind the scenes, of course, even with Congress about, you know, how do we get ready for this war that he sees as inevitable at this point. But it's going to get formalized in the spring of 1941 as the Lend-Lease Act, which is what we all know is the moment when it really tips towards us involving ourselves. Harry Hopkins was a big name here.
I did a real rabbit hole dive on this guy. Yeah. Really interested in his story, because I'd heard it a lot, but I didn't know who he was. He's as remarkable as Roosevelt, even health problems. He was his personal envoy to Churchill. He comes over and sees the bombed cities. He sees the naval base at Orkney all bombed.
He stays at Chequers, which is the home of the... Churchill treats him like royalty. Yeah, exactly. Er versteht, dass sie hier eine mordliche Gefahr befinden. Dan, mach ein bisschen historische Nachricht. Glaubst du, dass die FDR die Möglichkeit hat, mit Hitler zu handeln? Ich meine, wir wissen, wie Churchill sich fühlt, aber was ist mit der FDR?
Well, you know, you're the expert in FDR, Don, with this great series you've been running. But I think the FDR was hoping to avoid war if he could. He was hoping that there would be some way for the Europeans not to drag the world back into kind of global Armageddon, as they've done so many times in the past. But he also is, I think he buys what Churchill's selling.
He buys the idea that Hitler is evil. He buys the idea it's a threat, an existential threat to democracy. And that's why, and you can see that, because he does answer Churchill's pleas, and he does help I'm astonished when I read about 1941. Before Pearl Harbor, the lengths that the Americans go to help the Brits...
in 1941, it actually makes it less surprising that Hitler made the crazy decision to declare war on the Americans after Pearl Harbor. Because from Hitler's point of view, the Americans were kind of in the war. And if you look at Lend-Lease, a great example, in March 1941, you get the Lend-Lease Act passed by Congress, and Churchill said it's tantamount to a declaration of war.
Churchill knows, like, he's got them. This is America are in. They have agreed to provide enormous, enormous military supplies to Britain and its empire and its allies.
Yeah, over 30 billion dollars worth of American goods are lent over and galvanized this war effort. What does FDR think of Churchill, though? I mean, they had their suspicions that this guy was not all there. I mean, he was old and he had a very indulgent personality, you know, likes to drink and likes to party.
Yes, he likes to drink, he's old, he's a sort of Victorian war horse, let loose in this sort of modern age of the mid-20th century. He is also, this is the big thing that the FDR, I think, will always sit between them. He believes in the British Empire passionately.
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Chapter 4: What was the significance of the Lend-Lease Act?
And to a certain extent it's true that that kinship did really matter in the 20th century between the Brits and the Americans. So they also create the Atlantic Charter, which is a vision for a post-war order. Now, Churchill agrees, there will be language in there about self-determination. The peoples around the world will be able to choose their own form of government.
That includes people in current British colonies. So it shows how much peace prepared to compromise to get FDR on board and to show the rest of the world that the British and Americans are forming a kind of axis here, an alliance.
It's after Pearl Harbor, now we're in December 1941, that Churchill rushes to Washington. Obviously, critical moment here. This is the moment when Churchill knows he's got America with him fully.
Yeah, he receives news of Pearl Harbor. And by the way, people forget, the same day as Pearl Harbor, in fact, I think a couple of hours before, the Japanese attacked the British Empire in Asia as well. So Britain... Churchill wächst auf, um zu finden, dass Pearl Harbor passiert, aber er findet auch heraus, dass der britische Empire bereits unter Strain, mit Italien und Deutschland, kämpft.
Er kämpft jetzt auch gegen diesen pazifischen Macht, Japan, aber Churchill lässt sich nicht so beruhigen, weil er sich fokussiert, er weiß, dass der wichtigste Event Pearl Harbor ist, er weiß den wichtigsten Event und er hat gesagt, als er herausgefunden hat, die Nacht, nachdem er herausgefunden hat, hat er das Schlafen des Gebeten und der Dankbarkeit geschlafen und er hat geschrieben, dass Japan jetzt auf der Erde sein würde,
Und Hitler's fate was sealed. And actually, in terms of predicting the future, that's pretty good going. Churchill's exactly right. America's entry into the war. America being dragged into the war by Japan. Don't forget the very strange declaration of war by Hitler. Roosevelt had a bit of an issue. You get bombed in Hawaii, you can't declare war on Germany.
Right.
Aber Hitler machte den Job sehr einfach für ihn. Hitler erklärte die Krieg in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika. Verfolgt, seltsam, von Rumänien. Und das war eine Strecke für sie. Aber anyway, so Roosevelt sagt, gut, wir sind jetzt dabei. Hitler hat das getan, weil, was ihn betrifft, die verdammten Amerikaner so nahe zu den Briten gearbeitet haben.
Er hätte vielleicht besser involviert, wenn die Japaner involviert wurden, um es zu machen. Und er dachte, es könnte die Japaner ermutigen, ihn zu helfen, die Sowjetunion zu invadieren. Aber das ist ein anderes Thema. So Churchill thinks, right, we're done here. This is it. The statistics now make this look very well-opsided.
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Chapter 5: How did Churchill communicate his needs to FDR?
Es wurde agreed that the British and American forces would always be, this is very important, under one supreme commander, a now tradition that continues to this day with NATO. Talk to me about that. That had to have been weird for the British military.
Listen, that is very weird for the military and I think we accept it now because of NATO and the World War II, but there is nothing more important for a state than directing its own military affairs. The idea that you subordinate yourself to other people.
It's one thing being in a kind of alliance situation where a sort of alliance commander can be like, I'd love it if you chaps moved that way, but this is integrated command structure. This is you salute your superior officer and take an order as if he's from your nation and he's not. It's an extraordinary idea. And in the First World War, it hadn't happened.
Right at the end, in the First World War, the Americans had fiercely guarded their independence. Pershing, he would lend units to the French and the British. The British and French in the First World War had been like, just send us Americans and we'll stick them in our battalions and we'll send them to the front. And the Americans were like, no, no, no, no.
They will fight under American officers, under American flags. And the same is true throughout history. But what happens here? You say you're going to send a supreme allied commander for Europe. He's going to be an American and British generals and officers will serve under him. So you're right. You're right to focus on that. It's a hugely important thing. But my goodness, how powerful.
An alliance working so closely together.
I'll be back with more American History after this short break.
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Chapter 6: What strategies did Churchill employ to persuade the US?
Yes, Churchill was very nervous about the amphibious assault on Europe. He'd been thrown out of government for a disastrous amphibious assault in Gallipoli in the First World War. He was very nervous about this and he did not want to go before he felt they had overwhelming, overwhelming force and superiority. So They did not go in 1943. Stalin was begging them to go in 1943.
They did not go in 1943 and they went in 1944. I think Churchill was a large part of securing that delay.
Ja, es war die Teheran-Konferenz. Jemand, der sich nicht mit der Konferenz interessiert, weiß, dass es eine ganze Strecke dieser Konferenzen gibt, in denen wir von der Planung der Krieg zu der Planung der Nachfolge der Krieg gehen. Aber im November, Dezember 1943 ist die Teheran-Konferenz. In dieser Zeit hat die Dynamik eine große Veränderung.
Ich meine, du hast Stalin, jeder weiß, dass die Sowjets diese Krieg gegen Deutschland gewinnen werden. Vielen Dank.
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