Tyler McBrien
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Great to be here. I don't know if we're going to add much levity to the program.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
What about the nuclear codes? I thought there was a bit of Ukrainian gallows humor that you shared with us earlier.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I'll just first say the Chicken Keef speech illustrates this dynamic that we trace throughout the podcast, which is the U.S., determining Ukraine policy essentially on Russia's terms and through the lens of Russia. We spoke to one Ukrainian diplomat who said that the U.S. always looks at Ukraine through Russian glasses.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And I think what we're trying to plot is this has led to some pretty short-sighted decisions, both short-sighted looking forward and backward in terms of a misunderstanding of history. I will say, though, this is not an entirely pile-on U.S. foreign policy kind of podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Another, I think, interesting, contentious period that we look at is the Budapest Memorandum, in which essentially Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for assurances of security from the U.S., but in Ukraine it got translated to guarantees. And I will say, I did play the role of a sort of naive American at some points, but
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Nastia and I would have arguments between ourselves that almost mirrored U.S. and Ukraine relations. Take the nuclear weapons. Ukraine maybe couldn't maintain them financially and geopolitically. But of course, looking back, you know, Nastia would probably prefer that Ukraine had nuclear weapons right now. So it's an interesting dynamic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I do. To pick up on something Ben was saying, the fact that Trump has seemingly done a 180 for U.S. foreign policy, whether that'll stick or not, I think it's safe to say that there is a lot of ambiguity. And in looking back in U.S.-Ukraine relations, the U.S. has often trafficked in this type of strategic ambiguity only to Ukraine's detriment. It's a situation in which Russia can exploit easily.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Just very briefly, one of our episodes touches on a period called the Bucharest Summit, which was in 2008, which essentially gave Ukraine these vague promises of joining NATO and enjoying all the security benefits of that, but with no real map or commitment to get them there. But it was just enough to anger Russia and spark further aggression from them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So it's this kind of ambiguity, I think, that the U.S. is continuing to our own and to Ukraine's detriment.