Stacey Abrams
Appearances
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Can you think of an example or a time when citizens or local citizens sort of raised the alarm and had an effect at the local or state level? Because sometimes it can feel like industry is too big and the problem is too big. We can't do anything about it. You've spent a lot of time advising local and national policymakers. When have you seen citizens actually take what you use and have an effect?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Not because my parents didn't care, but because they simply didn't have the resources to get access to health care. And in fact, since I grew up and got access to health care, since my parents finally have health insurance, I can see a night and day difference in the way our lives are lived.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Well, let's stay there for a second because, you know, I talked about the allergy to science among policymakers. But there's a second strain that seems to have affected segments of the general public. And, you know, Project 2025 and its acolytes, they tend to harp on the uncertainty of COVID and the changes we adapted to. And as you described,
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
the uneven and sort of patchwork response, which seemed to prove that nothing was true, therefore nothing would ever be true. You know, there was the, you know, first we all wiped down every surface, and then we realized wiping down every surface wasn't necessary. And opponents of science hold this up as proof that the public should turn against the scientist.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
How do you respond to people who might be convinced that no one is right without invalidating how difficult that time was?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So basically, I'm going to translate this into television. We need to be more like Dr. House than we are like Law & Order.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So as a practical matter, as a practical translation, if I'm having a conversation over the holidays with someone who tells me, well, we didn't get it right in COVID and that's why I'm not paying attention to H5N1. That's why it doesn't matter who's in charge. What's the pithy response that we want listeners to be able to give?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Or at least how do they start a conversation in a way that reminds us all of our high school bio classes?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And I also feel an incredible degree of privilege because I know what it means to not have health care and to have it now. I am also deeply annoyed and sometimes outraged because the fight over healthcare is a fight that the people stopping it don't have to have. Every elected official in Washington, D.C. has healthcare, and it's the height of hypocrisy to deny it to others.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So part of the genius of Project 2025 and the effectiveness of the Trump administration approach is that by targeting everything, our attention has nowhere to focus and it's nearly impossible to concentrate. And that is especially true in this assault on health. Because HHS is such a mammoth agency with so many responsibilities.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
I gave a little bit of a primer at the top of the episode, but I want to spend a few minutes with you really making sure we understand what the Department of Health and Human Services is and why these attacks matter. So number one, can you break down what we need to understand about the agencies within HHS? And what are you most closely paying attention to?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And in the wake of COVID-19, now more than ever, we should understand how vital and essential healthcare as a human right is. So while fighting to protect and improve healthcare in this country is not new, here are some of the ways that healthcare may be impacted by the next administration.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So let's go back to the CDC for one second. When we hear about dividing the CDC, what does that mean and why should we be worried?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
When I think about all of these agencies and how they intertwine, one of the conversations then is how easy is it to do this? And I know you focus on public health and not necessarily the ins and outs of congressional action, but how easy would it be to divide the CDC or to allow the FDA to rescind the polio vaccination authorization? Yeah. Are those things that take a lot of time?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Are those things that are imminent? Is it something that happens by executive order? Can you talk a little bit about how public health actually gets changed in this country?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
One, there is an intent to dismantle or gut the Department of Health and Human Services, which is one of our nation's core agencies. And let's be clear, HHS, as it's called, has a very broad mandate.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And I would also throw out there that there are budgetary implications, and that means Congress gets involved. And when someone, let's say Mitch McConnell, flags that he is very unhappy about the threat to the polio vaccine, his lever of power is whether or not something moves through. Even though he's not going to be the majority leader, he has a vote in the Senate and a little bit of influence.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So I want folks to understand that the straightforward decision demand for action does not necessarily translate into immediacy of that action being taken. Would you agree?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Fantastic. So health is not simply the ability to know what diseases and threats are out there. You know, it's also about the ability to get help. And that means we also have to pay attention to the healthcare access side of things. So, for example, Project 2025 proposes to roll back the progress that the Biden administration has made in reducing drug prices.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
It's in charge of Medicare, Medicaid, the healthcare marketplace, the Children's Health Insurance Program, the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They also cover the human services side. So TANF, the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Head Start, childcare and child support, and that's not an exhaustive list.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
It also wants to accelerate the privatization of Medicare, which older and disabled Americans rely on. And they want to break up Medicaid into block grants, which will set fixed amounts that go to states, regardless of the actual cost of health care or the size or needs of the population. Okay. What are you concerned about when it comes to this administration's impact on health care access?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And how would you process this information as a layperson?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
HHS is under attack. Number two, they want to split the CDC into two agencies, one for data collection and one for public policy recommendations. And this effectively takes away the already limited authority of the CDC to provide public health guidance.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So you know a lot and you have been all over the world, all over the U.S., You decided to take your experience in epidemiology, but you've really channeled it into sharing information in a way that is extraordinarily accessible.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
You and I met actually in the midst of the COVID pandemic and you invited me to be on a podcast, but it was such an important conversation because you're just a really fantastic communicator on really complicated issues. Was there an inciting incident for you that made you decide, I not only have to know what I know, I need other people to understand what I know?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
It slows emergency response, and it could hurt state and local governments that rely on the CDC for public health guidance, for example, in the case of another pandemic. Number three, they want to tinker with the Food and Drug Administration's drug approval process. For example, take away the approval for mifeprestone.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Which brings us to the doing section of this conversation. You have been such a thoughtful partner to powerful people. But as you pointed out, you've also been doing that work with local organizations, with town hall meetings, helping citizens understand their power. How do we as individuals push back and meet this moment?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
We know there has been a recent tragedy where vigilante justice seemed like a solution to someone. But we know that that's not the answer. So how do we think about what else we can do? We know we talk about voting, and for some that didn't seem to work this time. It does work. It just doesn't work all the time in the ways we want it to work.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
But how do we talk about starting at the local level, using public health as the point of entry? Give us our marching orders. What do we do?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And number four, at the state level, the goal is to turn Medicaid, the vital national health care program that covers the poor, the elderly,
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
the disabled, and some children to turn that program into block grants, which means that states would have further permission to deny access to healthcare to the most vulnerable in our society because states would have less money and limited federal accountability. Okay, so I've just done a very long list of what's at stake.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you so much for joining us here and informing us here at Assembly Required. At Assembly Required, we encourage the audience to be curious, solve problems, and do good through a segment we call Our Toolkit. Now, we're going to fight the allergy to science and information by being curious.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
During my time in the Georgia State Legislature, I relied heavily on KFF News, and it's still my go-to. KFF News is an independent source with news and health policy research. So sign up for their newsletters at kff.org slash email. For regular listeners, you're going to notice that today I'm doing things a little differently.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
You see, we've gotten quite a few listener questions that have a running theme. First, Ed Bogue wrote an email titled, How to Be an Activist with Social Anxiety. He writes, since the election, I have felt energized to help defend human rights, but severe social anxiety has been a major barrier for me. Even when it's just low stakes, small talk, my throat gets so dry that I can barely speak.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And years of customer service work hasn't helped me overcome this. How do I get involved and make a difference when so much of the work is about connecting people? Number two. Muyan Chen wrote about wanting to be politically engaged even though she just has a green card. I came to the U.S. from China more than 10 years ago and now work as a researcher in a national lab.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Being a foreign national with a green card now, it's been quite stressful to watch the events unfolding, but it seems difficult to do anything about it legally. I'm wondering if there are anything such as volunteer opportunities that I can contribute to. And number three, a caller whose name I didn't quite catch called in and left a voicemail responding to the Heather Cox Richardson episode.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
She writes, I've been getting myself and my small online community to call our representative every day and leave messages with them, as well as an email. Just kind of letting them know, you know, what we think and what we need from them. And so I'm just wondering, are there specific folks we could be calling and writing? I like the idea of a bunch of us doing this kind of small thing together.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
We've been calling individual members that we can, also writing and calling our senators about Trump's nominations to his cabinet. but just looking for any other ideas for folks to call. Now, normally this is where I'd either answer your questions or give you resources on what to do about what we just discussed, like public health. But today, we're going to begin a capsule course.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
In grassroots organizing, Ed's social anxiety means we just find a different way for him to contribute to the cause, like setting up agendas or coordinating resources. For Muyan, her expertise can be a major asset in finding information and developing communication systems. And for our phone warrior, you're in the midst of convening advocates to push our agenda for good.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And it's not just about what's in the proposed policy papers from Project 2025. It's about who Trump wants to put in charge of that vast agency.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Because here at Assembly Required, we know we can start solving problems by showing up and taking action. Over the next several episodes, we're going to use this segment to talk about concrete steps that we can take towards insisting that political leaders do their jobs. Federal action will obviously matter, and absolutely it's important.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
But what I hope you've heard over these many episodes is that we're here to win. However, winning won't be fast, and it will require many of us across the country to take on different parts of the problem and combine our successes. And that means often working at the local level so we can one day have federal impact. This is not in lieu of federal action. It's in addition to. Let's get started.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Our first step is identifying the issue that matters to you most. Is it your state's refusal to expand Medicaid, book bans in your local school district, a food desert that seems to be growing? Do you need to launch a tenants union? Pick one as your tester pancake, the issue that you want to start with. So over the holidays, your task is to decide on the issue you want to tackle.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Be as specific as possible about the problem. And also, be as local as you can with the solution. If the city council can solve it, start there. If it's the county commission, know it. Does the state have jurisdiction? If so, that's your target. Take the time to know who's in charge and who can make the change you want to see. This is called power mapping.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So find out as much as you can about the issue, who's responsible, and who else is already working on it. Check social media and Google to see if anyone else is talking about this issue. Write it all down and let's get ready to go to work. As we close, I wanna share one last listener comment. And this is from Emily Drake.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
She writes, I wanted to thank you, first of all, for answering my question a few weeks ago. After hearing your answer and listening to this week's episode about the education system, I have decided to go back to teaching public school and to get involved as much as possible.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
I taught public school for seven years and I've had a few years off staying home with my kids, but I think it's a good time to go back and use my skills for good. So thank you. I appreciate all you do. Well, thank you, Emily, for sharing and for telling me how you're getting to work.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And if any of you want to tell us what you've learned, how you've solved a problem, or how you've rejoined the fight, send us an email at assemblyrequired at crooked.com or leave us a voicemail. Your questions and comments might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for engaging.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Thank you for letting us know that we're coming together and we're getting to work. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Alona Minkowski, and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kirill Poloviev is our video producer.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slossberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer, and me, Stacey Abrams.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
The incoming president's decision to nominate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services is indeed a source of much anxiety in the medical and scientific communities. So much so that Nobel laureates, a group that usually tries to stay out of politics, felt compelled to speak up. But there are other nominees. As I mentioned, HHS is huge.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So among the list of people whose names are being put forward include Mehmet Oz to lead the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and Marty Makary as the head of the FDA, both of whom have been controversial, to say the least, in their respective medical practices. I've just given you a lot of information.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And right now, like almost every day, listening to what's to come can feel like daily doom scrolling. And unlike 2016, when people talked about resistance, this time people have responded by saying they need to protect themselves first. I totally get that. The rule is put your own mask on first. But we're not on this trip alone. So eventually we'll need to help our fellow travelers.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
I'm here to help us prepare for when and how we engage and insist. That begins by understanding what's really at risk versus what's just hateful, wishful thinking. What impact can these proposals have and what's not being said? And as always, how do we fight back? So let's get straight into it with our interview today.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Dr. Celine Gounder is an infectious disease specialist, epidemiologist, and a science communicator. She is the editor-at-large for public health at KFF Health News. She produces podcasts and other content to help us understand what's going on in public health, and she was a regular guest on news shows during COVID-19.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
bringing us grounded, reasonable, and actionable information when misinformation and disinformation met a wave of panic and worry. Does that sound familiar to anyone? So here to keep us all informed and sane is Dr. Gounder. Thank you so much for being here.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Dr. Gounder, I have a public health crisis question for you. Are American politicians and policymakers allergic to science?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. Since the election, we've been unpacking how the incoming administration and Project 2025 will actually work. What's possible and how can we respond? As a reminder, Project 2025 is the 900-page-long policy blueprint published by the conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
That language is perfect, that it's when science is politically inconvenient. And it's actually a perfect encapsulation of one of the reasons I started with that question. There was the letter from the over six dozen Nobel laureates about RFK Jr. 's appointment. Thank you so much for having me.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
These Nobel laureates, though, these chemists and medical professionals and economists are very deliberate about pointing out that RFK Jr. has no credentials or relevant experience, quote unquote, in science, public health or medicine or administration. And as you pointed out, this is a question of value.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So how important is it to not only have values-driven decision-making and science-driven decision-making, how important is it to have science-driven and scientific knowledge and experience to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Well, that brings us to the other nominees. So while a lot of attention has focused on RFK Jr. heading HHS, the two of the top jobs are also under consideration. And one of the pending nominees is Mehmet Oz. The other is Matt McCurry, both of whom are physicians, but who each have had controversial experiences.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And there have been questions about their fealty to scientific principles in their work or the implications of their policy proposals. So what do their nominations tell you about the incoming administration's thinking about this?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So to your point about combining the need for science and for policymaking, what happens when you have a scientist who doesn't seem to believe or at least live those beliefs?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
With a complicit Congress and a compromised Supreme Court, their to-do list could undermine everything we rely on for a just society, from civil rights protections and environmental defenses to public education, free speech, and today's topic, healthcare.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
And you just pointed out that we are already on shaky ground. And this administration is not only rejecting expertise or bringing in people who have demonstrated a flawed use of their expertise. But there's also, as you said at the top of the conversation, this intent to replace civil servants who have that expertise with hires who are based on loyalty and not capacity.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
You mentioned H5N1 as one of the possible outcomes. Can you talk a little bit more about the implications of this lack of capacity when it comes to public health, not just in terms of pandemics, but just the larger public health universe?
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Can you talk a little bit more about state and local public health preparedness? Because that's one of the issues we try to focus on here on Assembly Required. We have a lot of attention... that necessarily needs to be turned towards the federal government. But often the real levers of power, and particularly the accessible levers of power for our listeners, happen at the state and local level.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
When we think about human rights, when we think about the core of what makes us who we are, there is nothing more relevant and more fundamental than healthcare. The ability to participate in society begins with good health. I grew up in a family without health insurance. I grew up knowing that if I got hurt, if it wasn't major, it was going to be treated as minor.
Pod Save America
Introducing: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
So can you talk a little bit more about how state and local public health works and how public health preparedness works at that level?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
In 2023 and 2024, I led a program called Vitalizing DeSoto. We worked in a tiny town in South Georgia to demonstrate that by replacing energy inefficient appliances with efficient appliances, you can lower your cost. And in fact, we accomplished that. For 75% of the community, they got appliances that are lowering their bills right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
We had one woman who saw her electric bill cut in half from $180 to $98. That's what we delivered. And based on that program, a coalition of organizations... Famous organizations came together and said to the EPA, if we can do this here, we can do this for millions more Americans. Let us invest the money of America in lowering the cost for Americans. And the EPA said, OK, great, go for it.