Scott Shigeoka
Appearances
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Curiosity inspires curiosity in others oftentimes. And so what I mean by that is when you are getting curious about someone else, oftentimes they will be inspired to give that curiosity back to you. And, you know, researchers sometimes call this like the give and take spiral.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Hi. Thanks so much. Great to be on.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So curiosity is the desire to know. And I think often people think about curiosity in an intellectual frame. I'm curious about the world around me. So I read books. I listen to podcasts like yours. I watch news programs or documentaries. And that's one aspect of curiosity.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
But a lot of what I focus on in my work is how do we bring this curiosity, not just in the mind, but down into the heart as well.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Well, there's, you know, curiosity strengthens our relationships to others. And I think most of us, I'm sure you included that anyone listening on this conversation wants to strengthen their relationships with their partners or children, parents. When we have a stronger relationship, there's more care in the workplace. You know, obviously, we have better collaboration. We have...
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
A lot of benefits for our own physical health that come from stronger relationships, including longevity, living longer, reducing stress, increasing our ability to have fortitude around the things that we're struggling with in our lives, which is something that I think we all face.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
I mean, I think any of us can think about our own personal relationships and remember a time when maybe someone wasn't being curious towards us, right? The opposite of curiosity is in curiosity. And maybe they're trying to tell us their their own viewpoint versus understanding our own.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Maybe you're trying to share a story, but they keep inserting their own story rather than asking questions or really listening to what we're saying. And oftentimes what happens is when someone is directing that in curiosity towards us and we don't feel seen, we don't feel heard, we don't feel acknowledged, we don't feel like they're taking the time to understand us.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Um, that, that really affects negatively the way that we feel about them. And research actually backs us that, um, in curiosity can drive negative emotions towards others, um, towards the people that we're in contact with.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And, and the opposite side, when we are curious, which means we're asking questions, we're listening, um, you know, we're acknowledging the person that's in front of us, really seeing them. You know, something I like to say is that people who are seen stay and, there's research to back that up as well.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
In both cases, whether you're really close to someone, let's say a partner where research has been done around curiosity is within partnerships, those partners where they feel that their partners are curious towards them, listens to them, they feel seen in the relationship, it is more likely that they're going to be happier.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
But even with those who we aren't as close with, strangers that we meet in a research setting, we found that there's an increase in the ways that we feel positively towards people who express curiosity towards us.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So when we haven't met a person ever before, but they start asking us questions and they seem to be genuinely interested in who we are, we feel more positively about them compared to those who are not expressing curiosity towards them.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
so that's what i mean and i think it's best to think about personal examples in your own life think about the people who do express curiosity towards you who really seem genuinely interested in your life you're often going to have warmer feelings towards them feel more cared for by them and probably want to sustain those kinds of relationships it seems that sometimes especially in relationships with people that we know and we feel comfortable with
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Yeah, I think we're much more reactive rather than curious. And there was a recent research that is basically called when in doubt, shout. And the idea behind that research is that oftentimes those who are the loudest, let's
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
situations where we're talking about social issues or, you know, issues even in the workplace, those with the least knowledge about it can often be the ones who are speaking the most. And I think if you talk to any good leader, let's say in the workplace, what you'll hear from them is, you know, you need to be a good listener.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You need to really understand the problems that you're working on, the people that you're working with, et cetera. And that's really driven by curiosity. But oftentimes I think we so badly want to be heard, whether that's in the workplace and this social or political environments we're in. And what happens is our desire to want to be heard and share our own perspectives and our own viewpoints
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
often make other people feel unseen. Like I just mentioned, it's often an expression of incuriosity. And so people say, well, if you know everything, if you're going to be so arrogant about your perspective, like, why do I even need to share? Or maybe I'm going to be reactive as well. And I'm going to meet you know, your arrogance with my own arrogance.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And it's not a productive way to have, you know, conversations, have a dialogue. So, you know, one of the things that I often talk about is how do we use curiosity in the context of division and polarization that we're experiencing, not just in our country, but all around the world. And I actually brought this curiosity on the road for 12 months. You know, I'm, you know,
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
identify as you know progressive and you know i've lived for most of my life in the adult life in the uh san francisco bay area i'm asian american i um you know have all these different qualities to me and the other side of that is i hadn't been curious or really understood the perspectives of other people in my country i hadn't really been to the south i hadn't really you know gone to uh you know trump country i had all these visions and versions of what that looked like to me based on you know social media and what other people told me but i wanted to you know
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
walk the talk of what I was sharing around curiosity. So I spent 12 months going across the country. I went to Trump rallies. I met with religious leaders and I met, I lived in the South. I met people who are very different from my day to day. And it was beautiful to actually see that I could also connect and find commonalities with people who are very different from me.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And I can move from a state of reactivity where we're not getting further at all in understanding one another's views and life stories to a place of curiosity. And the last thing I'll say here is that curiosity... inspires curiosity in others oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And so what I mean by that is when you are getting curious about someone else and their viewpoints and their perspectives and their life stories, oftentimes they will be inspired to give that curiosity back to you. And researchers sometimes call this like the give and take spiral.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
It's when you're in a conversation and you're asking a bunch of questions, they're asking questions to you back and it's like a great meeting, a great date, whatever context you want to put that in. And so I wasn't just learning about the people, that I met on my road trip, but they were learning a lot about me and my life story as well.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And a lot of people say, Scott, I can't hop in my Toyota Prius and take 12 months off of work and go on the trip that you went through. And I often tell them, you don't have to. We're often in families, let's say, where there's very different perspectives and viewpoints and politics and identities.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
We're often in communities with neighbors who have very different life stories and very different life experiences than us. But oftentimes, not only can we get reactive, but we can also close ourselves off from others. And what I'm trying to express in the work that I'm doing and
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
my book Seek is really about how do we move away from reactivity or closing ourselves off to this curiosity, which actually feels really good, right? Curiosity releases dopamine, which is often called the happy hormone. It's something that drives and incentivize behaviors that are really important for us. and our survival and our livelihoods and curiosity is no different.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So, you know, I don't just say do something that feels bad because it's good for you. You know, like there's actually a pleasurable feeling that happens when you're curious. It's often like the gym, right? You know, for many of us, the biggest weight in the gym is the front door.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
But once you get into the gym and you start working out by the end, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I did that for myself. I feel so good. And the same is true for curiosity.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Is there a story or a personal story in your life where someone made you feel that way because they were curious about you, Mike?
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Absolutely. Someone that sees a value in the people that they're talking to, you know, and I'm not coming from a place of judgment or assumptions about who you are based on their own biases, but saying, you know, there's a lot that I could learn from you. There's, you know, I've come in with an open mind and open heart, a curiosity.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And I want to, you know, ask you questions and have a great conversation with you. And I think, yeah, that you're right that, you know, many of the folks that I think about who give me that same curiosity are the people that I love and cherish the most.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And that conversation fosters a better connection. I will say sometimes though, I recently talked about this in the New York Times article about a term that I coined called predatory curiosity. And so what I mean by predatory curiosity is it looks a lot like curiosity, right? Someone's asking you questions, they seem to be genuinely interested in what you have to say.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
But then all of a sudden, the conversation quickly turns, and there's almost like a gotcha moment. And they say something like, I knew you were going to say that, or that's totally wrong. You're wrong with the facts. You walked right into my trap. That's not actual curiosity, even though it looks like it. Predatory curiosity is when we have an agenda or some kind of ulterior motives underneath
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
you know, our exploration or underneath the questions that we're asking. And in order for it to be true curiosity, it needs to be truly genuine. Truly, I do not know what I'm about to encounter in this conversation. You know, just like what you said, I said, hey, is there any anything that you're looking for from this conversation? And you answered in the most curious way.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You said, no, for the podcast, I'm just going to see where it ends up. I'm totally open to how we have this conversation together. And I think that's such a great example of true curiosity. So often, we are looking to take our conversations or to take our relationship to our particular destination. And there's many things that might be driving that, but that is not actually curiosity.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
We have to be much more open to the unknown and to the uncertainty of what might unfold in this conversation or in this relationship for it to be that way.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Yeah, well, in my book, I talk about the dive model, which is to detach, intend, value, and embrace. And I can describe that in a little bit, but then I'll share some tangible practices that are helpful. So the D is detach, which means to let go of what I call our ABCs, our assumptions, biases, and certainty.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And what I mean by that is you can write down the assumptions that you have about another person. Just write them down. Before you meet them for family gathering or before you have a conversation with them in the workplace, wherever you're coming into a conversation with someone, write down your assumptions about them.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You might find that a lot of those are not backed by facts or things that they've told you, but they're just stories that you've really invented in your head. So that's an example of how we might detach and let go from our assumptions, biases, and certainty. There's I, which is intend, which is how do we set the mindset and the setting for curiosity?
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So what I mean by that is if you need to have a curious conversation with your teenagers or with your boss, you know, it's better to prepare for it, to actually be intentional about it. You know, where are you actually going to have this conversation? What kinds of questions are you going to be asking? And something that professional athletes do is this idea of mental rehearsal.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So they actually think about the routine that they're going to do on the floor if they're a gymnast, or they think about the plays that they're going to do, you know, on the field, or they think about, you know, shooting a free throw at the free throw line. And we can do the same thing.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
We can do mental rehearsal with our conversations, really walking through all the different moments of a conversation that might be really challenging or hard or hostile or scary for us. And what the research has found is that mental rehearsal in this way improves our performance. It makes us better on the field, but also in the conversation that we're going to have in both settings.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So intend is really about how do we just be more mindful, more intentional, and really practice our curiosity before we need to step into the arena with it. V is value. And this is really simple. It's really about how do we see the dignity of every person we're getting curious with? It doesn't matter their politics, their identities, their experiences that they've had.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You have to see and honor their humanity and their dignity, or you will revert to an incuriosity. You'll say, oh, well, you're a part of this group. You vote in this way. You did this in the last elections. So I know everything I need to know about you. But the truth is, is you don't know everything about a person based on who they voted for or what association they're a part of.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You know very little about them, actually. And we are more than just our single identities. We are very nuanced people with many dimensions to who we are. And the final thing is embrace. which is how do we welcome the hard times in our lives?
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
I think what I often have found in my work and traveling all across the country and world is that people are very curious in low stakes moments, but once things get really challenging and really hard, it's much easier to turn off curiosity.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And so embrace is just a reminder that actually, if you're going through a tough time with your journey around health or a tough time in your relationship with your partner, or a tough time in your own mental health journey. All of these are just examples that I think many people share. That curiosity can actually be a really important companion in all of those pursuits.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
It's detach, intend, value, embrace. That's the key components of curiosity and
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
and to put those into practice in a practical way you start by doing what you just wake up and kind of approach the world differently or i mean what's the what's the how-to here yeah so a couple examples so um one is to remember that curiosity is a spectrum from shallow to deep and so you know shallow curiosity is about getting bits of information about who a person is oh what's your name what do you do for work you know where do you live
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
But we have to take our curiosity deeper to the deep end. What happens with deep curiosity is that we're able to dive beneath the surface, see a person and all of their stories and all of their nuances, and thus the quality of our questions change. So instead of asking a question like, oh, what's your name? Oh, you're oh, Mike. Oh, I'm Scott.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
You might ask a deeper question, a more powerful question like, what is the story of your name? I love that question of what is the story of your name, because it helps you to understand who named you, who named this person that you're talking to, maybe some cultural dimensions or some family legacy connections. I think that's really interesting. Instead of asking, what do you do for work?
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
you can ask a deeper and more powerful question like, what is really exciting you right now? What are you getting curious about in life right now? Instead of asking, where do you live? You might ask, what does home mean to you? What does home look like for you? And you start to just get a deeper understanding for who this person is instead of just data points.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And so asking deeper and more powerful questions is one tactical way to do that. A second thing to think about is a really simple phrase that you can have in your tool belt, which is tell me more. And this often happens even in my partnership, right? He'll be telling me something about, oh, he's going to this film set to do scouting. And I'm like, oh my God, that's great, babe.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
I love that for you.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
instead what when i say tell me more oh my gosh like tell me more about the set tell me more about who you're doing that with tell me more about how you're feeling about that opportunity our conversation and our connection becomes so much stronger so what i mean by tell me more here is to be aware of the times when you're in conversation with anyone in your life and you tend to respond with like oh that's really cool i'm so happy for you rather than you know diving deeper into the conversation and learning more
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
and trying to explore all the parts of this person's interests and their lives.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Yeah, I think a lot of us really do dislike that. And at the same time, I think a lot of us are so afraid to go deeper. I think we're afraid of, oh, what if we're making someone feel a certain way that they don't want to feel right now? Or what if we're asking something that's too personal? And so one of the practices in SEEK is to develop a powerful questions list.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
So every time you hear a question that you're like, ooh, I like that question, that's so interesting, it was provocative for me, write it down. Put it in your Notes app, in your iPhone, write it in your journal, have a draft in your email, whatever you want to do to catalog it.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
And as you start to do this and create a list of powerful questions, you start to realize that the quality of your questions that you're asking in conversations, whether it's at a party or whether it's in a workplace, you know, it starts to improve drastically.
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
I've noticed this, you know, I'm like, wow, like I'm never at that point anymore where I'm like running out of questions to ask or I'm like, oh gosh, this is like, I don't know what to say here because I have this huge repository of incredible questions. So some of the questions on my list are, you know, Who is bringing you a lot of joy right now in your life?
Something You Should Know
How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity
Or what is bringing you a lot of joy in your life right now? What's really exciting you right now in life? What's firing you up right now in life? What's a belief that you've had that you felt strongly about that you changed your mind on? And why did that happen?