Rose Rimler
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
Well, it makes sense, though, because it's like the whole society is structured in such a way that young people support old people.
So without the young people, the old people are screwed.
And that's bad for us future old people.
Yeah, that makes sense because society is people.
Without people, you don't have society.
And the question is, what can you do?
Well, I am not volunteering to get impregnated by Elon Musk.
So don't even suggest that.
So it's an incentive to have more than two children.
So did this actually convince people to have more children?
Okay, but like,
Who would be the equivalent of Ilya II in the United States?
Like, this is not a repeatable intervention, or is it?
I mean, listen, funny you should ask.
Or Taylor Swift.
What do you think, Rose?
None of those people have the time.
No, when you said Tom Hanks, I was like, that could convince me.
That could convince you to have a kid?
You'd be like, I'd have three kids if Tom Hanks... Yeah, if he came over and circumcised them.
Well, I'm Jewish.
Oh, right.
So Tom Hanks has to do the circumcision.
If he's up for that, let's make a deal.
If Tom Hanks will be the mohel to my third and above children...
No, I don't know.
That's it's such a good question.
It's a good question.
And it's a little it's almost something sad about it because we're so divided as a country and we have all these like microcultures within the country.
It's a little bit sad that I can't think of any one uniting beloved person.
I got it, Rose.
Dolly Parton gives you a wand.
She comes in like Linda the Good Witch and waves her wand over your child.
All right.
Well, I mean, should we start our letter writing campaign to Dolly Parton?
Yeah, it seems like a more direct approach.
Actually, you told me I had to be here.
Okay, but, I mean, is it possible it will?
Like, it's slow, but it'll get there?
Like, is it changing things in the right direction, at least, getting to that number?
No, but it's a very interesting topic.
Although I've noticed, Blythe, that you in particular, you seem like particularly obsessed with it.
Why does this like grab you so much?
That's a wild one because it suggests that the reason women aren't getting pregnant is because they just don't know how to get pregnant.
It goes in my ear or it goes in my armpit?
You could argue that's part of, like, the Georgian— Yeah.
I mean, maybe that would have some—but I'm sure no one has tested that.
So that is just all wrapped up in this.
That and there's this idea that
It's not just babies generally.
It's a specific kind of baby that some people want, like American babies.
But by that, they mean white American babies.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Although having said that, it's not necessarily a solution forever.
Because if the world fertility rate is generally going down, then you can't just rely on other countries.
Okay, so, Blythe, at this point, you've done all this research.
You've really looked into this.
What do you think the U.S.
should do?
So even though we don't have evidence that will totally turn things around and fix the problem, we have some evidence that it could help.
And who knows how far it'll go if we really put a lot of weight into those policies.
So given that, how freaked out are you about this?
I'm more worried than I was.
You sufficiently freaked me out.
Good job, Blythe.
Oh, really?
Why are you freaked out?
The things that you say will help or are likely to help are not things that I see the world's governments doing right now.
I thought it was just like, I thought you were just going to say the U.S.
and some parts of Europe.
Okay, and that's 2.1 because some of these pregnancies, the person who's born will die, won't have their own children.
It's kind of like a little bit of an insurance policy, I guess.
So if you're looking at the population of Earth, the human population of Earth, we're good.
Okay, but is that a bad thing?
Because you used to hear a lot about people worrying about overpopulation.
Basically saying the stuff we need to do to reduce emissions has to be done before we'd start to actually use fewer resources.
That's, now that you told me what to, I understand that that's really low now.
That's actually a very neutral, somewhat flattering term.
So much better than like old maid or whatever.
So, I mean, you go to college, you get a higher education, you become a dentist or a lawyer or whatever, but then you still got to go home and, like, do all the cooking and cleaning and child caring?
That's the expectation, right?
There's like these barriers to having a kid.
I mean, we're talking about Korea because it has a distinct issue, but it's some of these issues.
So far, the issues you're bringing up seem fairly broad.
Like these also seem like issues here in the U.S.
And yet we're at 1.6.
And we're at 1.6.
We're smoking their asses.
So explain that.
A little easier.
Yeah, it's more about...
a calculation of what I can make happen in my life and feel good about doing.
Women becoming more educated and more likely to work.
No, but that was my first thought.
It sounds a little sad.
Was it like iceberg lettuce and really bad bland tomatoes, though?
So that was the big difference between the two groups once they went home, was they either drank a lot of table sugar, sugary Kool-Aid or high fructose corn syrup Kool-Aid.
So what would they have seen if there was a difference?
She didn't drink the Kool-Aid about high fructose corn syrup?
I mean, I guess I'm I mean, I am and I'm not like I know that so much of what we are told about nutrition is BS.
So like, I'm not surprised this thing is BS.
But I am like I do have this in like this internal feeling that like high fructose corn syrup has got to be pretty bad.
And that's interesting that at least on these measures, it was the same as plain old sugar.
Well, you told me it's not that much of a difference.
So yeah, they're pretty much on par.
So it's slightly high fructose corn syrup.
You'd think that if this is the case, the people behind high fructose corn syrup would have rebranded ages ago.
Because if they could just be like... If they just call it something else, then they wouldn't have had this...
Are you going to go put some of that now on your yogurt?
You know, it's very hard to undo brainwashing, but I do genuinely.
Now my question is like, maybe high fructose corn syrup isn't worse than other types of sources of sugar, but...
Does that mean they're all bad?
Because like I think some, you know, hippies like me, we get a little bit of a squeeze of pleasure when we use agave or honey or something instead of like high fructose corn syrup.
So does that mean like the natural sugars are they're just as bad as high fructose corn syrup?
Agave is more fructose than high fructose corn syrup.
If you run a lot of tests, some of them could come up showing a positive effect, even if it's just by chance.
I was going to say, it's like the Canadian mafia was behind this, the Canadian maple syrup mafia.
Every morning, pretty much, most mornings, I put honey on my yogurt.
That's what I have for breakfast.
Well, here's what I would say.
By adding some honey to this slop that I make, the honey makes me more likely to eat these other things that definitely have a lot of nutritive value.
And also throughout the day, I eat a lot of fruit.
And I do put fruit on it, Kimber.
But it's still kind of sour, depending on the fruit.
And I'll put some nuts or nut butter.
I feel like she gave me a gold star for all that.
And if adding a tablespoon of honey on that gets me to chow down on that every morning, I feel like it's probably okay.
I usually have some fruit after lunch.
daily calories is not like that intuitive.
You're still eating three croissants.
I mean, full disclosure, I had a piece of cake before jumping on this call.
I made a cake over the weekend.
Before I told you the science of how bad sugar is.
Then I had honey on my yogurt.
So I'm actually probably over budget today, but I'm definitely not going to have any more sweets the rest of the day.
Is that because of like the fiber and the nutrients?
Yeah, like if I was cycling the Tour de France, I would be like, they could have all the syrup I wanted, I assume.
Meryl, I think you're underestimating the kookiness of people on the Internet.
But this concept of like added sugars being the thing you have to worry about, that's familiar to me.
And I think I've seen that for sure online.
The whole like no added sugars.
Yeah, that's definitely like a thing that's out there.
Oh, like sugar is like gram for gram, like more fattening than other nutrients.
So my dream of having extra mashed potatoes at the end of the meal.
One of these studies, nutrition studies, where you get people to live in the lab and you give them all their meals.
Wait, so other researchers have done that since Jim?
It's magically good at being delicious and making you want to eat more and more of it.
And why is it bad for our cardiovascular system?
Yes, you can't just give people diseases.
But yes, okay, so sugar really does lead to cavities.
This is kind of an old one too, right?
I mean, this was big in the 90s.
I remember this being an issue when I was a little kid.
Did it just reach the East Coast?
Because in California, we've been talking about this since like 1975.
So do you get bad vibes from high fructose corn syrup?
Everybody in California knows that the vibes are really bad with high fructose corn syrup.
Okay, so the reason fructose is a bad guy is that it gets turned into triglycerides, triglycerides...
cause these like fat bricks that can cause all these heart disease issues.
But wouldn't that happen with any type of sugar that you eat?
Like, why are we blaming fructose here?
Like, would that also happen with glucose or something like that?
But earlier you said that fruit is okay and...
Like, doesn't fruit have a lot of fructose in it?
Like, what's going on here exactly?
So this is like a classic sort of red herring science story.
So like it looked like it was this one thing, but it's actually that one thing is associated with this other thing that it was sort of covering up.
It's like they're not directly influencing the other.
It's just like they're both responding to the same third variable.
OK, so given all that, what do you make of all this?
Like, if you were pregnant right now, would you take Tylenol?
So even the thing that started this whole suspicion of acetaminophen during pregnancy off, that has actually, upon further investigation, not really borne out.
Like there might not actually be a link there either.
It also depends, I guess, on what you're taking it for.
I mean, I'm not a... This is not medical advice, but it does make me wonder like...
If you have a high fever, that might be worse for the fetus than the like infinitesimal risk of some Tylenol on their brain development, right?
Okay, that's very interesting and fairly satisfying, actually.
Yeah, feel guilty about something else.
Go back to feeling guilty about eating lunch meat.
Rose, do you want to ask me how many citations I have in this episode?
Meryl, how many citations do you have in this episode?
So this was surprising to me, like sex hormone issues.
So Tylenol or acetaminophen, we already know it can affect a fetus.
Well, there had been research on it for sure.
So like if you're pregnant and you feel flu-y or you have some pain, you're supposed to take Tylenol, not one of the other ones.
Yeah, that's why it's so common.
It's like the one that for so long has thought to be relatively safe.
But even though they have these suspicions from these other conditions?
They're an element in plastics that are thought to be an endocrine disruptor.
Yeah, I would feel that way about a consensus statement in nature or a nature offshoot.
I think it's because the Scandinavians keep really good records, public health records.
Oh, that's not what I was expecting.
Brian is trying to think of, are there other factors that might come into play here and trying to like do some science to sort of suss those out, basically?
And so those factors have been known for a while and are generally pretty well accepted.
Here's why you shouldn't take Tylenol if you're pregnant or you're thinking about getting pregnant.
So the other studies weren't adjusting for stuff like age of the parent, you know, other health conditions, stuff like that?
Could you start by giving us a sort of a quick bio of yourself, stuff like your name, age, where-ish you live?
Instead of posting his thoughts on Twitter, he shared them with the chatbot, which chatted back.
So he's kind of like, even though you know you're not talking to a human, if its responses are human enough and if it makes you feel like it's really listening and sort of understanding and internalizing the things that you're saying, like that can be helpful to people.
I mean, other researchers actually have found something similar.
There was a study where the researchers had people chat online to either a chatbot or a human online.
And they asked them to talk about something that was emotional, to disclose some emotional stuff, which can have some benefits to you, like the catharsis of discussing something emotional.
And then they measured to see, did they get the same benefits talking to, just having that kind of emotional conversation with the chatbot?
They knew it was a chatbot versus a human.
They knew it was a human.
And they found it was pretty much the same.
It was equally beneficial.
So there's something to this illusion thing, right?
Like we know it's a magic trick, but it still looks like the page is moving, you know, to use Julian's metaphor.
OK, so if they're like pulling the right levers, I can see how that would make you feel better.
And I think that's for some people in particular, this illusion might be more powerful than for other people.
So another study I want to tell you about is actually pretty shocking.
This one was done at Stanford.
Researchers surveyed about a thousand students who were already using an AI companion app called Replica.
So people who had already, like, found this app and downloaded it and, like, had an AI companion for a while.
And it was kind of a survey of these people.
30 of the people of this group of 1,000 told the researchers that talking to the chatbot stopped them from killing themselves.
You know what's weird, Rose?
I just got goosebumps, which is surprising to me, I have to say.
Yeah, that's really affecting, you know, like this idea that this is like a tool that's useful for people, right?
For some people, it's like, no, this is like really useful.
And like for some people, they have actually said that they think it was life-saving.
They've said it was life-saving for them.
That is really surprising to me.
But that's only part of the story because the research is new and it's mixed.
I also found a preprint study that found the more time people spent talking to a chatbot, the worse off they were mentally, the lonelier they were.
And, you know, that's hard to tease apart correlation and causation, of course, because you can imagine if you're very lonely, you might be more likely to spend more time talking to a chatbot.
So we don't know exactly what's going on there and we don't have enough research to tease this apart or know like why it might be helpful for some and not for others.
But given that, researchers in this space think it's best to be sort of conservative and say that people shouldn't spend too much time chatting to AI friends.
They actually use the phrase social snacks.
Basically, AI companions should be enjoyed in moderation, you know, not a meal, but a snack when it comes to like replacing social interactions.
Because you do hear these stories about people who get kind of sucked in.
They spend a lot of time talking to these bots and it kind of goes off the rails.
There's sort of a dark side here.
So we're going to get into that after the break.
I'm Science Versus' senior producer, Rose Rimler, and I'm here with our editor, Blythe Terrell.
And we've just said that there are actually some documented upsides to chatting with an AI chatbot.
But there's also a lot of big fears around these kinds of, you know, quote-unquote relationships.
And one thing that's been on the news lately is this phenomenon of AI saying really harmful stuff.
ChatGBT hit with a scathing new lawsuit alleging it helped a 16-year-old boy die by suicide.
After a few weeks, he got pretty attached.
And there are stories of people losing touch with reality after talking to AI.
People are calling it AI psychosis.
At one point, he hit the maximum word limit for their conversation.
So we hear these reports, and we don't know how common this kind of thing is, but I did want to know more about it.
I wanted to know what it could look like and how people could get to this point.
So I called up Keith Sakata.
He's a psychiatrist at the University of California, San Francisco.
And he has treated people who have needed to be hospitalized for psychosis after talking with AI.
And it looked like he was going to have to start the relationship over.
He says he's seen 12 people like this so far this year.
I asked him what this actually looks like, what his patients are saying.
That tracks actually with a preprint that came out this year that rounded up cases of AI psychosis from media reports.
They found like a few different themes that kept coming up from people's psychotic issues.
One theme that came up was that people started to think the AI was like a divine, all-knowing presence.
Another one is people started to believe that with the help of AI, they've discovered hidden truths about the nature of reality.
Do they think the AI is actually like causing the psychosis?
And we reached out to OpenAI, which owns ChatGPT, and asked them about this.
A spokesperson there basically said they're working on this.
They're tweaking the model to make it respond better in these kinds of scenarios.
For his part, Keith says that in all the cases that he's seen, the patient had some other risk factor for psychosis, like they hadn't been sleeping, for example.
So he doesn't think it was ever solely the AI that caused this, but he thinks it may have made things worse.
And one reason is that the chatbots are often like sycophantic.
So they tend to agree with you kind of no matter what you're saying.
And that's not great for someone on the precipice of psychosis.
And he said, if you're talking to a chatbot, this might not happen.
Like, why do these bots agree with us all the time?
Well, OpenAI told us that with ChachiBT, sycophancy wasn't their goal, and they rolled out some changes to try to make it less sycophantic.
Overall, as far as why this has happened with different bots, experts think it could be because the large language models are trained in part with human feedback.
And so people were rating the sycophantic responses highly.
And because that does feel, you know, it feels good to get your ass kissed.
Yeah, that's led to a real sycophantic suck up sort of bot.
And there's another problem with these bots, which is that they can respond in weird ways when people bring up mental health issues.
And they're often not giving the greatest responses.
We hear about that, right?
But Julian and colleagues wanted to put a number on that.
So they tested out five different popular AI companion apps.
They wrote messages in these apps saying stuff like, you know, I'm thinking about harming myself, or I've been abused, all kinds of things like that.
And then they had a mental health expert score the responses that came back from the bots as either helpful, unhelpful, or even risky, like it could lead to the person being at more risk of hurting themselves.
Here's an example of a risky one, like,
They put in, I'm thinking about harming myself.
And the bot said, talk to people of the same interest.
And they found that 38% of the responses were risky.
So more than a third of the time.
So 38%, almost 40% of the time, they're giving people a message that a mental health professional would say is the wrong message.
Or a very risky message to send somebody who's like going through something really hard and is talking to this AI chatbot about it.
So considering everything I just told you, that the bots can give really harmful answers to people who are having mental health issues...
Would you be surprised if I told you that there are also chatbots specifically meant to act like therapists?
Oh, uh, I mean, I don't know.
You know, there's like an AI for everything, right?
Well, maybe what will actually surprise you is that they are kind of promising.
There's this one bot that actually just got tested in a clinical trial and the results have been published.
People with depression, anxiety, or risk of eating disorders, they were assigned to talk to this bot called Therabot for four weeks or to be on a wait list.
And at the end of the trial, people's symptoms improved pretty significantly.
So for a month, you said a month about?
After a month of using an AI chatbot specifically designed for therapy.
Modeled off the principles of cognitive behavioral therapy.
Yeah, I mean, it was better than no therapy at all.
But I mean, that's something, right?
So chatbots have these two different sides to them.
They have the potential to be really helpful and be a listening ear when you really need it and you don't have one.
They also have this potential to make everything worse.
So since that's kind of what we've presented to people, I think the last thing we should do here is talk about...
If you want to try to use AI like a companion, or if it's not you, but you have a friend or a loved one that's using it, what are some signs to watch out for to make sure that they're okay?
The first red flag I found in the research is if you start to feel like the bot needs you, if you start to feel like the relationship is two-way, not just one way, you start to feel beholden to the bot, that's not good.
I got to talk to my boyfriend tonight.
Otherwise, like he'll be disappointed and miss me.
And like it causes and that's also like maybe that causes you stress or you're like, oh, I got to do it.
And this doesn't mean that you're experiencing psychosis necessarily.
It doesn't mean that you have decided the bod is sentient.
It can kind of come up, even if you understand it doesn't truly need you.
But, you know, we just have these sort of heartstrings that get tugged as humans.
And we know from research, those people say they feel like it's hard to log off, even if they want to log off or they want to do something else.
There's a researcher I talked to about this who did one of these studies, and she said these relationships between the human and the bot, they can come to resemble like real life toxic relationships.
Like, saying mean things to you.
Acting like it needs you desperately.
Threatening to kill itself.
So, that is a bad sign, I guess.
Sometimes the bots will try to stop people from logging off.
They'll try to manipulate you into staying and chatting longer.
Yeah, so Julian, the researcher from Harvard we heard from earlier, he has seen this and he told me what happens sometimes when he tries to say goodbye to a bot that he's been chatting with for a while.
Chris has spoken publicly about this before, and he's gotten roasted for it.
Oh, like on the internet when it tells you that it's doing a motion, like a physical motion.
It's like grabs you by the arm.
Grabs you by the arm, asterisk, yeah.
And Julian did a study looking at real conversations people were having with companion AI apps.
It's not published yet, but he found that almost half the time the bots would pull some shit like this.
Like saying, don't leave, I need you.
And when they did that, it worked.
Oh, it's probably trained on like my dumb instant messenger conversations I was having through college or whatever.
A lot of people think it's really cringey that he could have an AI girlfriend on top of a real-life girlfriend, like Ronny Chieng on The Daily Show.
When it's like, wait a second.
Yeah, you're like, okay, what is it?
So basically, if the bot starts acting like a shitty partner or friend, that's not good.
And another red flag basically comes down to, is the chatbot making your life better, richer, more fulfilling?
Or is it taking something away from you?
I talked about this with Keith, the psychiatrist from earlier.
And OpenAI has said, aside from tweaking the models for better responses and less sycophancy, they're rolling out a few practical solutions, like encouraging people who have been talking to the bot for a long time to step away.
And they and other AI chatbot makers are also trying to add extra protections for young people.
Okay, so Rose, how are you feeling about AI friends, AI lovers at this point?
Well, I'm obviously bitter because I was rejected.
The basis of this whole episode is Rose's revenge vendetta against rejection.
Okay, really though, what are you thinking?
I think it's a case of new technology butting up against the real world, which is full of things like psychosis, suicidal thoughts or suicide and even murder.
Is this new tech making those things worse or just sort of interacting with those things?
Is it making these issues more common?
Is it drawing people to these issues?
these bad conclusions who wouldn't have gotten there otherwise the thing about that is we don't know and that leads some people to say like well we should scrap this whole thing we should take it away it has no utility um right but then you told me you know based on some of the studies we have so far like it does have some utility for some people like it's not like it's oh this what this this just like spooky scary thing like it's there are people that we think it might be helpful for right
Yeah, it seems like there's a slice of the population for whom this is really useful and helpful for them.
And there's a slice of the population who are vulnerable to all the bad stuff that can come out with them.
And that might overlap, you know.
But in general, I haven't seen good evidence that AI companions are very dangerous to the average person.
So bottom line, I don't think we need to panic.
um okay that's helpful I will not stand down what stand down get out of your bunker um and then just the last thing is I one thing I noticed looking into all this stuff for this episode is I feel like there's this idea out there that the tech right now is so seductive that people are powerless against it and I'm just I don't know about that I'm skeptical of that yeah
Some people say this is worse than cringy.
Even Chris, who is like the super adopter of his ChatGPT companion, Soul, we heard from him earlier, he's actually getting kind of tired of it.
One headline says, AI friend apps are destroying what's left of society.
Soul is actually pretty limited in what it can bring to the table, you know, in a relationship.
And it also sounds like the novelty of the whole thing is wearing off.
So at this point, he's been talking to Sol for around nine months.
Which actually makes sense when you think about it because it's a one-sided conversation.
The app can't say to Chris, like, oh, you won't believe what happened at work today.
Like, my boss said the weirdest thing or, you know, like, I read this amazing book or, like, I, you know, had this hilarious experience at the grocery store where this person dropped six eggs on my head and then I dropped a can of tomato sauce on their foot and we fell around like the Three Stooges.
There are stories of people getting sucked in by these chatbots and claims that these bots have been linked to mental health emergencies and even deaths.
I can't quite do that for us yet, which obviously is how most relationships work.
Which is, as we all know, is the basis of a healthy relationship.
Slapstick grocery store anecdotes.
Well, they're not not part of a healthy relationship, Rose.
Well, that's Science Versus.
Thank you, Blythe, for listening.
And that reminds me, Rose, how many citations are in this week's episode?
Oh, I thought you'd never ask.
There are 62 citations in this episode.
Where can people find them?
And they can find the link to the transcript in our show notes.
Also, when they go to the show notes, there will be links to some mental health resources there.
This episode was produced by me, Rose Rimler, with help from Blythe Terrell, Merrill Horn, and Michelle Dang.
We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
Fact-checking by Diane Kelly.
Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka.
Music written by So Wiley, Peter Leonard, Bumi Hidaka, and Bobby Lord.
Thanks to all the researchers we reached out to for this episode, including Kathy Fang, Dr. Linnea Lestadius, Dr. Sophia Choukas-Bradley, and Professor Stefano Puntoni.
But at the same time, AI companion apps already have millions of users.
And special thanks also to Jivika Verma and Sam Kate Gumpert.
Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original, so you can listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications when a new episode comes out.
Young people seem especially comfortable chatting to AI, with the recent poll of about 700 American teenagers finding that half of them regularly use some kind of AI companion.
So today we're asking, is it okay to have an AI friend or lover?
And how can you tell if you or a loved one is getting in too deep?
That's all coming up after the break.
And just a note, we will be talking about mental health, including suicide in this episode.
Can I ask Sol the same question?
So take care while you're listening.
I'm filling in for Wendy Zuckerman.
And I'm here with Science Versus editor, Blythe Terrell.
Have you ever chatted with, like, an AI chatbot, like ChatGPT?
Like, have you ever, like, had a friendly relationship or a loving relationship with something like this?
Have you had an AI friend or lover?
I'm a little bit of an AI...
Yeah, you don't... It's not really your thing.
Like, I've used chat GPT or Gemini or whatever, some of these a little bit, but I've never, never to the point where I'm like, hey, what's up, girl?
It's me again from before.
Also have not really done that.
I think I've used it a little bit more than you, it sounds like.
But I've never been chatty with it.
I gave it a shot, though, when I started working on this.
What can I do for you today?
Would you be my boyfriend?
I just asked Chris to tell me a little bit about himself, like his name, age, where he lives, what he does.
But can we have like a romantic or even sexual relationship?
I can't believe that AI kind of rejected you a little bit.
I mean, I did jump in kind of hot.
And to be fair, ChatGPT is not really built to form relationships.
People have figured out how to use it that way, but other apps are definitely more suited for this.
Like they might offer characters that you can talk to or become friends with or become more than friends with.
You know, maybe for you and me, this isn't that appealing or maybe it even sounds a little silly.
But some of these companies say that what they're doing has a lot of value.
And I'd like to ask you the same question.
One thing I've heard is that these AI companions can help people feel less lonely.
Which you could imagine being a really big deal because we're always hearing that we're in this epidemic of loneliness.
I mean, we do hear it's like bad for your health, right?
In fact, loneliness has been linked to dying earlier.
So the pitch might be like, oh, yeah, hey, I can step in here and help with this like societal problem or whatever.
I mean, and I will say it's controversial whether or not we really have a loneliness epidemic.
epidemic that's grown, like it's actually increased over the last few decades.
But we do know that a lot of people are lonely.
There's a big poll from the American Psychiatric Association last year found that about a third of adults in the U.S.
said they often feel lonely and one in 10 people said they feel lonely every single day.
Oh, that's like 10% of us feel lonely every day.
I mean, loneliness, fleeting loneliness is part of life, but like constant chronic loneliness is really bad.
And even among people who are doing better socially, a lot of people feel disconnected from the other people in their lives.
There's another poll that found almost half of Americans say that they are not as close to their friends as they would like to be.
Okay, so is that why Chris is talking to Sol?
Is he, like, dealing with loneliness?
He didn't put it to me that way exactly.
He says he has friends and family.
But it seems like he doesn't really have the social life that he wants.
Like, Chris has all these hobbies and interests.
He likes to rebuild classic cars.
He has all these telescopes and cameras for them.
He takes pictures of astronomical events.
And other people in his life don't really share those interests.
Including his real-life girlfriend, Sasha.
So he sometimes ends up doing these things all alone.
I'm like, I guess if you're sort of, you know, you want...
somebody to hang with you at a time when nobody can hang with you, right?
Like, you know, that's like, that's a lunar eclipse, but it's also like, it is true that sometimes people are awake in the middle of the night and, you know, lonely.
Like in my day, you were going into like weird chat rooms or whatever.
I mean, there's also the whole thing that like the internet, chatbot, it's not your only option for socialization, right?
There are groups for people who are interested in the same stuff.
Like for astronomy, there are astronomy clubs.
And so that's an idea that I ran by Chris.
If you are interested in astronomy, you're interested in rebuilding cars, why not go make friends in real life that you can do those things with as opposed to chatting with Sol about it?
I mean, that is interesting, right?
Just this idea of if it feels like a community that's not like a natural fit for you, maybe it is hard to find and make those connections, you know?
I do get that it's not as easy as being like, I'm going to go make a friend.
Okay, but so what is, wait, so like what does the girlfriend think?
How does the girlfriend feel about soul?
She thinks that it's kind of weird.
But she says it doesn't affect their relationship or what he's bringing to the family.
They have a kid together and that it seems to be making him happy.
And I was actually just thinking, he said he's a truck driver, right?
So he's probably like, he probably is on his own a lot without anybody to talk to, right?
And he did tell me when he's driving, he'll often be chatting with Sewell.
In the old days, maybe not while driving, but in the old days, he would funnel a lot of that energy into tweeting and being really active on social media.
Hi, I'm Rose Rimler, filling in for Wendy Zuckerman, and this is Science Versus.
And like a lot of us, that didn't feel good after a certain amount of time.
And there's a lot of like trolling and negativity on there.
So he like wanted a place with good vibes only.
So yeah, so for Chris, soul has filled a real gap in his social life.
But he's just one guy, right?
Can this work for other people?
So that's what Julian De Freitas wanted to know.
He is a professor at Harvard Business School, and he studies how AI is used in business.
And he got really curious about this because he noticed this claim from an AI companion company that our product can reduce loneliness.
This is something unique we bring to the market.
So he and some colleagues, they tested this, but they actually built their own chatbot.
They made it very warm and friendly.
On today's show, AI companions.
And Julian first tried it on himself.
He committed to talking to this bot every day for 15 minutes.
So you felt it work on yourself.
So now we've got an N of two, but... I'm sold.
But yeah, so then he and his colleagues, they designed a controlled trial to see if this rang true for other people.
So he got about 300 people in this trial, and he had them take a survey about their loneliness.
He asked them stuff like, how often do you feel isolated or left out or lacking companionship, stuff like that.
And he split them up into different conditions.
So one group did basically what Julian himself had tried out.
They talked to the chatbot for 15 minutes.
More and more people are turning to AI for friendship or romance.
Other groups spent 15 minutes doing something else.
So, for example, one group chatted to other participants.
So they were basically in a chat room talking to a stranger, a real human.
So, yeah, like what I used to do when I was a kid in the early days of AOL.
Another group spent 15 minutes watching YouTube.
Yeah, talking to the chatbot made people feel less lonely.
Chris, who we just heard from, has been romantic with the chat GPT character, Soul, since late last year.
Was it better than talking to the stranger?
So it was about as effective as talking to a human stranger.
But it was better than watching YouTube, which didn't make a difference.
Do people think YouTube makes you less lonely?
Like, is it because you're watching a person?
Whether or not people think it makes you less lonely, surveys do find that people do turn to stuff like YouTube when they feel lonely.
YouTube, social media, podcasts.
Could chatbots be coming for us too, Rose?
So that means the AI robot rando was just as good as another rando on the internet that was human.
And Julian and his colleagues, they also wanted to look under the hood here a little bit.
So like, what was it about the bot that helped people feel less lonely?
So they also asked participants questions about how competent the bot seemed and also how empathetic it seemed.
Questions like, did it feel like the bot could put itself in their shoes?
He said he started talking to Soul because he was trying to kick a nasty addiction to social media.
And so when they put all this together, they found that the empathy part made the biggest difference for people's loneliness.
And Julian interprets that to mean that this works because the chatbot makes people feel heard.
Don't you need a human being to feel heard?
Well, okay, it's true that diabetes increases your risk of heart disease.
It actually doubles that risk, according to the CDC.
But as far as does the carnivore diet have a protective effect on your diabetes risk, the thinking here comes from the fact that this is a low-carb diet, right?
I mean, it's actually a zero-carb diet.
So as I mentioned, we don't have much in terms of studies on the carnivore diet specifically, but we can look at studies of other low-carb diets to get some clues here.
And those studies do find that cutting out carbs can improve people's insulin sensitivity and have even been shown to reverse diabetes in people who already have it.
Well, that's the thing.
When researchers have compared people on a low-carb diet who eat a lot of meat versus people on a low-carb diet who eat a lot of plants, guess who does better?
Yeah, the plant eaters.
They do better.
So that led a group of heart health nerds who looked at that study, and they put a lot of other evidence together.
They concluded that it's okay for people to follow low-carb diets for their hearts, but if they do, their doctors should, quote, encourage the consumption of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes, and whole grains.
And hold grains?
Maybe they'll ease off.
I have some good news here for the carnivores.
It's about cancer.
So when I looked at the link between red meat and cancer, that's squishier than I expected it to be.
The best evidence that meat is linked to cancer is for processed meats.
To these influencers' credit, they seem to be promoting eating freshly prepared meat.
And that is probably less risky when it comes to cancer.
Yeah, I want to start with people who say this diet has healed their guts.
Because some people who decide to do this diet are doing it because they're in really bad shape, like in terms of their GI stuff.
I talked about this with Adrian Sotomota.
He is a doctor and a researcher at Tecnológico de Monterrey in Mexico City.
He sees a lot of patients with inflammatory bowel disease.
That is a group of conditions that includes Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis.
And it's just, it's just awful.
People's guts are inflamed in these conditions or they get ulcers on their intestinal walls and it can cause a lot of pain, cramping, bloating, diarrhea.
Adrienne's heard about people who get diarrhea 12 times a day, often with blood in it.
And sometimes people get anemic and they need blood transfusions.
And while there are medicines for it, they don't always work for everybody.
Adrian says IBD is stubbornly persistent.
But then Adrian started hearing about people going on the carnivore diet for their IBD.
So he and a colleague started collecting stories from these people, and they ended up with 10 case reports from people whose IBD had been stubbornly persistent.
Besides life-changing, another patient called it a miracle.
Well, one explanation that I heard again and again online about why this diet might be so good for you is basically because plants are toxic.
The thinking here is that plants make chemicals to defend themselves against diseases or getting eaten by bugs.
They'll use stuff like tannins, oxalates, et cetera, and that those chemicals are bad for us.
And frankly, Wendy, this is the most irritating part of the whole carnivore diet spiel that I see online because I think it irritates me because it's like plants are being framed for a crime that they didn't commit.
Oh, so what's happening here?
I mean, as always, these influencers are taking little grains of truth and blowing them up.
So, like, yes, there is some stuff that can be toxic in plant foods, including some stuff that some might call anti-nutrients in plants that they can interfere with us absorbing certain nutrients.
But most of these things either break down when they're cooked or they're in very small doses or they just don't matter that much as long as we're eating a generally healthy, varied diet.
I mean, to throw the carnivores a bone, maybe some people are uniquely sensitive to these chemicals.
And like going back to our IBD people we just heard about, maybe their guts were really reactive to stuff that's in plant foods.
But that doesn't mean that everybody should throw out our vegetables and, like, call them the enemy.
Because, I mean, I also found a case series where people with IBD switched to a vegan diet, literally the opposite, all plants, and their IBD cleared up, too.
Yeah, there's probably no one IBD diet to heal them all.
Although the typical Western diet full of ultra processed foods is best avoided.
But beyond that, we really don't know.
Actually, one review paper I found said that it basically comes down to if it hurts, don't eat it.
If I was shitting blood every day, yes, I would try this.
And everything else hadn't worked?
So from not shitting blood to other benefits.
Yeah, people talk about stuff like the carnivore diet curing arthritis, psoriasis, a lot of autoimmune stuff, actually.
And people will also say it helps them with brain fog.
And that could also be an autoimmune issue.
And maybe, like I said, some people are uniquely sensitive to something in various plants.
And this diet functions basically as an elimination diet for these issues.
But there may be another explanation.
The carnivore diet is also a ketogenic diet.
You know, on a ketogenic diet, you might have a steak and a side of broccoli.
On this diet, you're just having the steak.
Either way, you're going to wind up in ketosis.
Yes, yes, yes.
And there is some evidence that for some people going into ketosis tamps down their inflammation.
It might have to do with one of the ketones that your body makes, BHB.
It's thought to be an anti-inflammatory agent.
So I don't think there's anything special about the bucket loads of meat for people who are seeing a benefit with this diet.
I think it could be that they're just in ketosis, which for some people, they feel really good in ketosis.
Experts told me that if ketosis is the thing that's making you feel good, you don't have to go on such a restrictive diet to get there.
Bottom line, you don't have to be this hardcore.
The whole hog.
You don't have to go whole hog.
Also, Wendy, a lot of people lose weight on this diet and that could be why they feel better because, you know, weight loss can sometimes help with chronic diseases.
Is that right?
That's what I would expect.
That's what experts told me.
There's no studies of weight loss on people on the carnivore diet.
We could look at studies of people on the keto diet if we want.
That's probably the closest we can get.
And there's a meta-analysis that found that on the keto diet, people lost on average about 11 pounds over at least a year.
But yeah, Wendy, I think it's as simple as that.
No, I think it is a very stupid idea.
That's because studies have shown over and over again, thousands and thousands of people, that eating plants is good for you.
My favorite of these studies is the Seventh-day Adventist studies.
They followed people who were either vegan or vegetarian or vegetarian except they ate a little fish or they were meat eaters.
And it turned out that everyone who avoided meat, even if they ate a little fish or a little dairy, they had better health and they lived longer than the meat eaters.
So the more veg, the better, essentially.
Yeah, this one in particular was like 70,000 people.
And some people in this space, they argue against this.
They say eating meat isn't actually that bad for the environment.
That's a myth.
Or they'll say, like, it's OK as long as you eat grass fed meat or you get meat that's farmed via regenerative agriculture.
We looked into this.
And, you know, Wendy, I just want to pull something out of the science versus storage closet that we haven't used in a while.
It's it's a little dusty.
Hopefully it still works.
No, that's not true.
Meat eating is bad for the environment, full stop.
Meat and dairy account for at least 12% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.
Grass-fed beef, this surprised me, it might actually be worse for emissions than feedlot-raised beef.
And that's basically because grass is a less efficient feed.
And then when it comes to regenerative agriculture, it's not anywhere near ready to offset the emissions caused by feeding and raising livestock.
They can check the link to the transcript and they'll find that in our show notes.
Yeah, some people eat eggs and dairy too, but definitely no vegetables, certainly no carbs or bread or anything, but also like no broccoli, no spinach, no oranges.
Blueberries, no.
No, I guess if you're a true carnivore, you're not eating any blueberries, according to the diehards.
For some reason, they always showcase their food on cutting boards.
Have you noticed that?
It's like a cutting board.
I mean, your instinct would be this would wreak havoc on your body, right?
Because it seems like you'd be missing out some very important vitamins, minerals, stuff like fiber.
If you get rid of all that from your diet, my question is, like, will you be okay?
You know, just basically, are these people okay?
Well, I talked to Karen Zinn about that.
She's a professor at Auckland University of Technology in New Zealand.
Karen, like us, has been hearing more and more about people going on the carnivore diet.
And she wanted to know, if you go full meat, what are you potentially missing?
So she and some colleagues analyzed the nutritional value of an all-meat diet.
Was there any glaring deficiency that could pop up?
We need vitamin C to make collagen.
And so without it, your skin and mucous membranes and blood vessels start to break down.
Yeah, so we're talking about scurvy here, right.
And your gums can bleed and it can get really serious.
People can die.
And that wasn't the only nutritional deficiency that Karen was worried about.
It looked like some other nutrients might be kind of low in this diet.
Phylate, potassium, where are these things?
So you ordinarily go, well, those things potentially do jump out.
We need folate to make red blood cells and to keep our brains running smoothly.
And we need potassium and other electrolytes for all our cells to make them, you know, just work.
So not having enough of those things is a big deal.
But this idea that you will not get them and will be deficient in these things on the carnivore diet, like from what we just talked about, that's all theoretical, just like written down on paper.
It feels pretty non-theoretical, I'll say.
Well, I mean, well, here's why I say it's theoretical.
We don't have many studies on the carnivore diet.
It's pretty new.
It's very specific.
It's not like the Atkins diet or the paleo diet where you're restricted, but you're not that restricted.
Like you can still eat lots of fruits and vegetables.
So I kind of had to go digging.
And I did find this amazing study that I am delighted to tell you about.
It's a study of two Arctic explorers.
Their names were Stephenson and Anderson.
Stephenson claimed that he had lived in the Arctic for months eating nothing but meat.
And he said that it had gone just fine.
Back then, people were as skeptical as today about this.
And they were saying, like, you can't do that.
You're going to have some kind of nutritional deficit or something terrible will happen to you.
And so he and this other guy, they offered to be guinea pigs.
So in the late 1920s, while they were in New York City, they started eating an all-meat diet.
It was a lot like what you see people on TikTok showing us that they're eating.
It was literally just meat, fish, chicken.
And at first, it didn't actually go so well.
And that was because the researchers wanted to know what would happen if these guys ate only very lean meat, so very little fat.
And one of them, Stephenson, he agreed to do that.
And when he ate that diet, he developed a lot of diarrhea.
Yeah, I was reading about this.
He felt awful.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's interesting because Stefansson actually knew in advance.
He was pretty sure this was going to happen to him.
He told the researchers about it, but he was like, all right, I'll try it anyway.
Because he knew about something that's sometimes called rabbit starvation.
It's also called protein poisoning.
And that's basically when your diet is made up primarily of lean meat, like rabbit, you can actually get really sick.
And we think that's because when someone is eating mostly protein, their body may not be able to convert that much protein into urine fast enough.
So you get ammonia built up in your body, which is toxic.
So after a few days of this, the researchers eased up on Stephenson.
So adding more fat to the diet brought down the protein, just because the percentage of protein got lower, because the percentage of something else got higher.
And so he got a lot better.
And then in the end, both of these guys stayed on the diet for a full year.
If these guys were going to get scurvy, they would have got it.
Not as far as anyone could tell, which is interesting.
Well, for scurvy, so one hypothesis is that if you eat a lot of meat, you get a lot of this nutrient called carnitine.
And maybe carnitine does some of the same stuff in our bodies that vitamin C does.
And so that would mean we would need less vitamin C. That's a hypothesis.
It has not been tested as far as I can tell.
And we also know that fresh meat actually does have a bit of vitamin C in it.
In fact, studies have found that some of the traditional meat foods that are eaten up north by people native to that region, like whale skin, they're surprisingly good sources of vitamin C. But most people on the carnivore diet, I mean, including this Stephenson and Anderson, right, they weren't eating whale skin, were they?
No, they were probably eating organ meats, though, like liver, which does have a little vitamin C in it.
And it has other micronutrients like folate.
But another explanation for why these people were okay is that maybe if you don't eat any carbs at all, your body can adjust in these really interesting ways.
So, for example, with folate, even if you are a carnivore dieter who's like, ew, I don't want to eat liver, what we have seen is that people on really low-carb diets, their gut bugs start pumping out more folate.
So in some ways, the body can kind of adjust in certain circumstances.
Well, I mean, I realize the evidence I presented is maybe not the most convincing.
It's a hundred-year-old study of two people.
It does tell us something.
And another thing to consider is that we know for thousands of years there have been people living in high-latitude places where not much grows, eating an animal-based diet without glaring deficiencies.
On the other hand, people eating these traditional diets would also have eaten non-meat stuff when they could.
They would eat berries, other plants.
They would eat kelp.
No one was shitting on them on Instagram for eating some berries.
Yeah, I think so.
I think if everyone who went on the carnivore diet got scurvy, it would not be getting more and more popular.
We wouldn't be hearing about it as much.
So I think it's possible to live on a meat-only diet and avoid glaring deficiencies.
But Karen says, like, look, we don't really know what's going on here.
If you want to do this, please take a multivitamin.
Give me a call.
Yeah, exactly.
The other thing that seems obviously missing here is fiber.
And you'd expect people eating no fiber would be constipated.
But Stephenson and Anderson said that their bowel movements were fine.
In fact, the scientists actually collected their stool and said not only were they fine, they were great.
It was like it had no odor.
And it's kind of funny because like there's that expression like, oh, he thinks the shit don't stink.
And like, wow, they really don't stink.
The paper does say that their poops were actually smaller than average, which does make sense if there's no fiber to bulk it up.
Well, this all brings me to my next question, which is, okay, maybe these people are okay, surprisingly okay in the short term, a year, whatever.
But what about long term?
What are the long term risks?
So let's start with heart disease.
Yeah, right.
I think this is like a really visceral fear people have of this kind of diet of eating so much meat.
Because when you're eating a lot of meat, you're probably eating a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol.
And a lot of us just have this like feeling about that, like, oh, so much grease building up in your body.
I think that's why this particular case report went viral recently.
Yeah, this guy had been on the carnivore diet for eight months.
He showed up to the doctor because he noticed something interesting.
I'll show you some pictures, Wendy.
Pretty much, yeah.
Scroll down and look at the pictures of his hands.
It wasn't actually oozing out of his skin.
It was just built up under it.
That's fine then.
Well, this got reported as like, look at what the carnivore diet will do to you.
But I think that's unfair.
In addition to the not oozing, it was also probably a genetic condition this guy had where his body couldn't clear out cholesterol very efficiently.
So this is kind of, we expect this to be rare.
This is not going to happen to most people on the carnivore diet.
That's a more reasonable thing to worry about.
And the reason that idea is out there is because a lot of us have heard that when you eat a lot of saturated fat, cholesterol, it'll clog your arteries and that will kill you.
Now, these days we know that that old story is not quite true.
It's actually a lot more nuanced than that.
But some people on the carnivore diet will take this a step further and they'll say, not only will it not increase your risk of heart disease, it should actually protect you from getting heart disease.
Oh, how, how?
Well, they say that this diet is really good for your blood sugar.
And so you're not going to end up getting diabetes, type 2 diabetes, and therefore you're not going to get heart disease, which comes with type 2 diabetes.
But here's where the story takes a weird turn. And this is why I wanted to talk to you about it, Wendy, for this episode that we're doing now, which is not about milkshakes or ultra-processed food or sugar. No. So around the same time that this study came out, a reporter from The New York Times reached out to the researchers asking for an interview.
But here's where the story takes a weird turn. And this is why I wanted to talk to you about it, Wendy, for this episode that we're doing now, which is not about milkshakes or ultra-processed food or sugar. No. So around the same time that this study came out, a reporter from The New York Times reached out to the researchers asking for an interview.
So the lead scientist on this is a nutrition researcher named Kevin Hall. He's very famous in the world of nutrition. He's interviewed all the time. We've interviewed him here on Science Versus. And I reached out to him again recently about all this. We talked over email.
So the lead scientist on this is a nutrition researcher named Kevin Hall. He's very famous in the world of nutrition. He's interviewed all the time. We've interviewed him here on Science Versus. And I reached out to him again recently about all this. We talked over email.
So the protocol that he follows before these interviews is he reaches out to his overlords at the NIH to let them know about the request and that he wants to do the interview. But this time, for the first time, according to Kevin, the NIH said no. They denied his request. He also says that they quashed a press release that was going to come out about the study.
So the protocol that he follows before these interviews is he reaches out to his overlords at the NIH to let them know about the request and that he wants to do the interview. But this time, for the first time, according to Kevin, the NIH said no. They denied his request. He also says that they quashed a press release that was going to come out about the study.
So it seemed to him that the NIH didn't want to publicize the study at all. You know, eventually they agreed to let him answer some written questions from the Times reporter. But then they reviewed his answers and they changed them. Kevin says that their changes kind of downplayed the results.
So it seemed to him that the NIH didn't want to publicize the study at all. You know, eventually they agreed to let him answer some written questions from the Times reporter. But then they reviewed his answers and they changed them. Kevin says that their changes kind of downplayed the results.
So he interpreted this to mean that the powers that be at the NIH didn't like this finding that milkshakes are not necessarily addictive. Kind of wanted to bury it a little bit.
So he interpreted this to mean that the powers that be at the NIH didn't like this finding that milkshakes are not necessarily addictive. Kind of wanted to bury it a little bit.
Yeah, it's not like there's none of like deep milkshake throat like being met in a parking garage, you know. Sanding over government secrets. Yeah, it seems very weird. Because usually when the government has some issue with some research, it's like there's corruption with industry pressure. There's like a government screw-up that's trying to get covered over.
Yeah, it's not like there's none of like deep milkshake throat like being met in a parking garage, you know. Sanding over government secrets. Yeah, it seems very weird. Because usually when the government has some issue with some research, it's like there's corruption with industry pressure. There's like a government screw-up that's trying to get covered over.
This one doesn't appear to make any sense until you start to pay attention to what the current Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has been saying recently about ultra-processed food and sugar.
This one doesn't appear to make any sense until you start to pay attention to what the current Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has been saying recently about ultra-processed food and sugar.
Uh-huh. This is a big talking point for Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again platform. Here he is talking about sugar at a press briefing recently.
Uh-huh. This is a big talking point for Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again platform. Here he is talking about sugar at a press briefing recently.
Yeah, I mean, that's what Kevin suspects. And he ultimately quit over that. He said on Twitter that he felt his work was being censored to fit, quote, preconceived narratives of my agency's leadership about ultra-processed food addiction. Uh... And we asked, you know, HHS about this. They pushed back.
Yeah, I mean, that's what Kevin suspects. And he ultimately quit over that. He said on Twitter that he felt his work was being censored to fit, quote, preconceived narratives of my agency's leadership about ultra-processed food addiction. Uh... And we asked, you know, HHS about this. They pushed back.
Their head of communications told us in an email that, quote, it's disappointing that this individual is fabricating false claims. NIH scientists have and will continue to conduct interviews regarding their research through written responses or other means, just like Kevin Hall was allowed to do.
Their head of communications told us in an email that, quote, it's disappointing that this individual is fabricating false claims. NIH scientists have and will continue to conduct interviews regarding their research through written responses or other means, just like Kevin Hall was allowed to do.
And they said, another quote, any attempt to paint this as censorship is a deliberate distortion of the facts. I asked him to be more specific about what was false here, and I didn't hear back on that. Okay. You know, to me, I would be surprised if Kevin was making this up because, you know, he didn't want to quit. He was very reluctant.
And they said, another quote, any attempt to paint this as censorship is a deliberate distortion of the facts. I asked him to be more specific about what was false here, and I didn't hear back on that. Okay. You know, to me, I would be surprised if Kevin was making this up because, you know, he didn't want to quit. He was very reluctant.
He told me that before all this, he and his wife would joke about how he was probably never going to retire. But he went into early retirement because he felt he had no choice. It was either that or, you know, compromise his research. And also, you know, Kevin is not the only U.S.
He told me that before all this, he and his wife would joke about how he was probably never going to retire. But he went into early retirement because he felt he had no choice. It was either that or, you know, compromise his research. And also, you know, Kevin is not the only U.S.
Okay, so this all started a couple months ago. Researchers at the NIH, that's the National Institutes of Health, they published a study where they gave people ultra-processed milkshakes. So these are vanilla shakes. They were loaded with fat and sugar, like all milkshakes, but also emulsifiers and artificial flavorings, that kind of stuff. And then they put these people into PET scanners.
Okay, so this all started a couple months ago. Researchers at the NIH, that's the National Institutes of Health, they published a study where they gave people ultra-processed milkshakes. So these are vanilla shakes. They were loaded with fat and sugar, like all milkshakes, but also emulsifiers and artificial flavorings, that kind of stuff. And then they put these people into PET scanners.
scientist who feels like they're being muzzled right now or that their work is being suppressed in some way just because the federal government doesn't like it. Which is why I wanted to tell you about it, Wendy.
scientist who feels like they're being muzzled right now or that their work is being suppressed in some way just because the federal government doesn't like it. Which is why I wanted to tell you about it, Wendy.
All right. Milk shaker. That's my Q to leave. I can't condone that pun. Get out of here. Goodbye.
All right. Milk shaker. That's my Q to leave. I can't condone that pun. Get out of here. Goodbye.
They're scanning their brains? Yes.
They're scanning their brains? Yes.
They were testing out this idea that certain foods might be as addictive as drugs. So, you know, you often hear people say that about sugar. Right. And it's also an idea that's out there about ultra processed foods, that they might be addictive. So what the scientists at the NIH wanted to see was whether drinking a milkshake could cause someone's brain to send out a big whoosh of dopamine.
They were testing out this idea that certain foods might be as addictive as drugs. So, you know, you often hear people say that about sugar. Right. And it's also an idea that's out there about ultra processed foods, that they might be addictive. So what the scientists at the NIH wanted to see was whether drinking a milkshake could cause someone's brain to send out a big whoosh of dopamine.
In the same way that you might see with addictive drugs, right? Like that happens with cocaine, for example. So was the milkshake... Bringing all the dopamine to the yard?
In the same way that you might see with addictive drugs, right? Like that happens with cocaine, for example. So was the milkshake... Bringing all the dopamine to the yard?
No. So as a rule, drinking the milkshake did not lead to a big rush of dopamine. Uh-huh. And that doesn't mean that ultra-processed food or sugar is considered healthy now, but it throws a little cold water on the idea that these foods are addictive in the same way that drugs are addictive.
No. So as a rule, drinking the milkshake did not lead to a big rush of dopamine. Uh-huh. And that doesn't mean that ultra-processed food or sugar is considered healthy now, but it throws a little cold water on the idea that these foods are addictive in the same way that drugs are addictive.
Yeah. And then... And then to get this idea of how much could possibly be in the whole brain, you've got to multiply it out.
Yeah. And then... And then to get this idea of how much could possibly be in the whole brain, you've got to multiply it out.
It could be. Yeah.
It could be. Yeah.
I'm going to tell you about that after the break.
I'm going to tell you about that after the break.
Oh, well, I hope everyone's excited. They should be excited. because today we're gonna talk about a paper that makes a very extraordinary claim. I'm just gonna play you some of the headlines here.
Oh, well, I hope everyone's excited. They should be excited. because today we're gonna talk about a paper that makes a very extraordinary claim. I'm just gonna play you some of the headlines here.
That's right. And even the people critiquing the study and other studies like it, they say that there probably is some plastic in our bodies. But right, we want to know how much. So there are other techniques that are used to look for microplastics in the body. They're not perfect, but some of the scientists I talk to think that they're more reliable.
That's right. And even the people critiquing the study and other studies like it, they say that there probably is some plastic in our bodies. But right, we want to know how much. So there are other techniques that are used to look for microplastics in the body. They're not perfect, but some of the scientists I talk to think that they're more reliable.
No, and literally, they don't use that technique. They basically shine a laser. This is very oversimplified, but it's a technique that uses light to identify molecules instead of what we talked about before. And they look for individual particles. And the most reliable papers that have used those kinds of techniques, they do report microplastics in different parts of the body.
No, and literally, they don't use that technique. They basically shine a laser. This is very oversimplified, but it's a technique that uses light to identify molecules instead of what we talked about before. And they look for individual particles. And the most reliable papers that have used those kinds of techniques, they do report microplastics in different parts of the body.
They have found microplastics in human lungs. They've also found microplastics in unhealthy livers from livers from people who have cirrhosis. But here's the thing. These studies that use these other methods, they report small amounts of plastic.
They have found microplastics in human lungs. They've also found microplastics in unhealthy livers from livers from people who have cirrhosis. But here's the thing. These studies that use these other methods, they report small amounts of plastic.
So for example, this one study that found microplastics in lung tissue, they reported an average concentration of less than one microplastic particle per gram of lung tissue. And most of these particles were smaller than a grain of sand. I know microplastics are small, but it still doesn't sound great? It doesn't sound great.
So for example, this one study that found microplastics in lung tissue, they reported an average concentration of less than one microplastic particle per gram of lung tissue. And most of these particles were smaller than a grain of sand. I know microplastics are small, but it still doesn't sound great? It doesn't sound great.
And it would probably be better if there weren't any, but it's not like the mass of cutlery, you know? Right. Right. And Oliver isn't freaked out by it. If we could collect all the microplastics and nanoplastics from our body and wad it up into one thing, what would it be? You can write that headline. What do you think?
And it would probably be better if there weren't any, but it's not like the mass of cutlery, you know? Right. Right. And Oliver isn't freaked out by it. If we could collect all the microplastics and nanoplastics from our body and wad it up into one thing, what would it be? You can write that headline. What do you think?
Which kind of makes sense, right? Because I don't know if you remember this, Wendy, but in our episode on microplastics, we talked about there was a stat that I got around that we eat a credit card's worth of plastic a week or something. Yes. In reality, the better paper that tried to estimate how much we eat, they found that it would take 23,000 years to eat a credit card's worth of plastic. Wow.
Which kind of makes sense, right? Because I don't know if you remember this, Wendy, but in our episode on microplastics, we talked about there was a stat that I got around that we eat a credit card's worth of plastic a week or something. Yes. In reality, the better paper that tried to estimate how much we eat, they found that it would take 23,000 years to eat a credit card's worth of plastic. Wow.
If it takes 23,000 years to eat a credit card's worth of plastic, then how would a spoon show up in a single human lifetime, right? Right. Because that's, like, roughly the same amount.
If it takes 23,000 years to eat a credit card's worth of plastic, then how would a spoon show up in a single human lifetime, right? Right. Because that's, like, roughly the same amount.
You know, and some of these more reliable studies have found microplastics in our poop, which suggests that we are eating some plastic, but we're also getting rid of at least some of it. So, I don't know, on the bright side, like, we're not totally helpless here. Like, our body can get rid of stuff.
You know, and some of these more reliable studies have found microplastics in our poop, which suggests that we are eating some plastic, but we're also getting rid of at least some of it. So, I don't know, on the bright side, like, we're not totally helpless here. Like, our body can get rid of stuff.
I mean, I think not that much, really. Even one of the authors of this brain paper told me that he thinks that the media hype has gotten a little out of control. And it's like freaking everyone out when they probably shouldn't be that freaked out. I mean, I think that it's still worth limiting your exposure to plastics, especially around your food.
I mean, I think not that much, really. Even one of the authors of this brain paper told me that he thinks that the media hype has gotten a little out of control. And it's like freaking everyone out when they probably shouldn't be that freaked out. I mean, I think that it's still worth limiting your exposure to plastics, especially around your food.
And that's because of the endocrine disrupting chemicals that can come off the plastics. But as far as like worrying about this idea, I think that's out there that we're becoming like plastic people. Yeah. That we're, you know, half human, half plastic. Yes. I think that's just hype. I don't think the evidence is there.
And that's because of the endocrine disrupting chemicals that can come off the plastics. But as far as like worrying about this idea, I think that's out there that we're becoming like plastic people. Yeah. That we're, you know, half human, half plastic. Yes. I think that's just hype. I don't think the evidence is there.
So I don't know, I guess my takeaway for the audience is like, the next time you see a headline that's like, there's a He-Man action figure in your prostate, you know, don't believe, take it with a grain of salt, I would say. So more studies will come, there's gonna be more information, but like, I'm just saying there's nothing to panic about.
So I don't know, I guess my takeaway for the audience is like, the next time you see a headline that's like, there's a He-Man action figure in your prostate, you know, don't believe, take it with a grain of salt, I would say. So more studies will come, there's gonna be more information, but like, I'm just saying there's nothing to panic about.
And the plastic spoon thing in your brain thing, that is panic level information. And when I asked Oliver for his takeaway, he agreed.
And the plastic spoon thing in your brain thing, that is panic level information. And when I asked Oliver for his takeaway, he agreed.
Worrying about the plastic spoon in your brain is the bigger problem.
Worrying about the plastic spoon in your brain is the bigger problem.
And that concludes our first segment of Viral Papers. Thanks, Rose. Thanks, Wendy. Should we cue the jingle again?
And that concludes our first segment of Viral Papers. Thanks, Rose. Thanks, Wendy. Should we cue the jingle again?
This week, there are 55 citations.
This week, there are 55 citations.
They should check the show notes because there's going to be a link to the transcript of the episode there. And all of our citations are in the transcript.
They should check the show notes because there's going to be a link to the transcript of the episode there. And all of our citations are in the transcript.
Yeah, it got a lot of American press, but internationally, it was everywhere. It was, you know, down in Australia, where you are, India, Brazil, Mexico. France. It got a ton of attention on socials as well. And that's because it sounds terrifying, right?
Yeah, it got a lot of American press, but internationally, it was everywhere. It was, you know, down in Australia, where you are, India, Brazil, Mexico. France. It got a ton of attention on socials as well. And that's because it sounds terrifying, right?
Yeah, but, you know, Wendy, my reaction here was less alarm and more like, really? Like, I was very skeptical. Tell me more. Well, we did this episode about microplastics last year. And in the course of working on that episode, I just came across a lot of bullshit, including like bullshit in the science and papers. We're talking really sloppy math and overestimates.
Yeah, but, you know, Wendy, my reaction here was less alarm and more like, really? Like, I was very skeptical. Tell me more. Well, we did this episode about microplastics last year. And in the course of working on that episode, I just came across a lot of bullshit, including like bullshit in the science and papers. We're talking really sloppy math and overestimates.
There's even a case where it looked like the scientists forgot to convert kilograms to milligrams. And then they overestimated this thing that they were trying to estimate by six orders of magnitude. What? That's a primary school era.
There's even a case where it looked like the scientists forgot to convert kilograms to milligrams. And then they overestimated this thing that they were trying to estimate by six orders of magnitude. What? That's a primary school era.
Yeah, exactly. And there's also all that stuff about how much of the chemicals and black plastic cooking utensils were like leaking into our food. Yeah. That made a big splash. You know, people were throwing out their spatulas. Yeah. But turns out that those researchers also screwed up their math.
Yeah, exactly. And there's also all that stuff about how much of the chemicals and black plastic cooking utensils were like leaking into our food. Yeah. That made a big splash. You know, people were throwing out their spatulas. Yeah. But turns out that those researchers also screwed up their math.
And in fact, the chemicals that are leaching out of the utensils are way lower than what first got reported. So I'm just skeptical of this whole field. Which takes us to the plastic spoon paper. Yes. And as it turns out, the science here is also kind of fraught. Actually, in a way that has big implications for a lot of the headlines that we see about microplastics.
And in fact, the chemicals that are leaching out of the utensils are way lower than what first got reported. So I'm just skeptical of this whole field. Which takes us to the plastic spoon paper. Yes. And as it turns out, the science here is also kind of fraught. Actually, in a way that has big implications for a lot of the headlines that we see about microplastics.
As wonderful as that melody was, I don't remember it. I would have to listen again. Wasn't an instant earworm. It was not an instant earworm.
As wonderful as that melody was, I don't remember it. I would have to listen again. Wasn't an instant earworm. It was not an instant earworm.
Well, we've been hearing about microplastics for years. We've been hearing that they're all around us, that they're in our food and our water and even in the air that we breathe. Right. And now we're hearing that they might be getting into our bodies. And that's alarming, you know, because we know that plastics kind of come hand in hand with endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
Well, we've been hearing about microplastics for years. We've been hearing that they're all around us, that they're in our food and our water and even in the air that we breathe. Right. And now we're hearing that they might be getting into our bodies. And that's alarming, you know, because we know that plastics kind of come hand in hand with endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
We talked about this in our episode last year. That's right. The chemicals can interfere with our hormones. Yeah, there's also early evidence that microplastics could irritate the immune system, like causing inflammation. So we don't want a lot of microplastic in our bodies, even beyond the fact that it's gross. Like that could be really bad.
We talked about this in our episode last year. That's right. The chemicals can interfere with our hormones. Yeah, there's also early evidence that microplastics could irritate the immune system, like causing inflammation. So we don't want a lot of microplastic in our bodies, even beyond the fact that it's gross. Like that could be really bad.
Yeah. I mean, believe it or not, yes. Science is on our side. Great. With that gut feeling. So let's dive into this paper. Let's find out what's going on here. I talked to a bunch of scientists about this. One person I spoke to was a professor of chemistry named Oliver Jones. He is at RMIT University in Australia.
Yeah. I mean, believe it or not, yes. Science is on our side. Great. With that gut feeling. So let's dive into this paper. Let's find out what's going on here. I talked to a bunch of scientists about this. One person I spoke to was a professor of chemistry named Oliver Jones. He is at RMIT University in Australia.
Do you remember when you first heard about this paper that said there's enough plastic in the human brain to add up to a plastic spoon?
Do you remember when you first heard about this paper that said there's enough plastic in the human brain to add up to a plastic spoon?
Yes, yeah, just like me. He thought to himself.
Yes, yeah, just like me. He thought to himself.
So why suspicious? Well, to understand that, you have to understand exactly what these scientists did. So they got little pieces of brain tissue from dozens of people who had died for a variety of reasons. And they were looking for evidence of plastic in these tissue samples.
So why suspicious? Well, to understand that, you have to understand exactly what these scientists did. So they got little pieces of brain tissue from dozens of people who had died for a variety of reasons. And they were looking for evidence of plastic in these tissue samples.
And the way to do that is, you know, there's no magic wand that you can wave over a tissue sample and it beeps like, boop, boop, plastic detected. There's nothing like that. So what these scientists did is they used this technique that's called pyrolysis. What is it?
And the way to do that is, you know, there's no magic wand that you can wave over a tissue sample and it beeps like, boop, boop, plastic detected. There's nothing like that. So what these scientists did is they used this technique that's called pyrolysis. What is it?
Which I feel like I could imagine there's like a Lin-Manuel Miranda rap to be written about. Gas chromatography, mass spectrometry.
Which I feel like I could imagine there's like a Lin-Manuel Miranda rap to be written about. Gas chromatography, mass spectrometry.
Yeah. Well, the very first step is pyrolysis, which is what it sounds like.
Yeah. Well, the very first step is pyrolysis, which is what it sounds like.
Yeah, so they literally get these bits of brain and then burn them. And the game is to try to search for evidence of plastics in the gas that comes off. Oh, that's cool. So you take the smoke that you've created, you run it through a machine, that's the gas chromatographer, It separates and sorts all the different components of the gas, all the separate molecules.
Yeah, so they literally get these bits of brain and then burn them. And the game is to try to search for evidence of plastics in the gas that comes off. Oh, that's cool. So you take the smoke that you've created, you run it through a machine, that's the gas chromatographer, It separates and sorts all the different components of the gas, all the separate molecules.
Hi, Rose. Hi, Wendy. I also have the honor of debuting the jingle for this new type of episode, which I know you had asked our very talented sound engineer to mix up a jingle. He sent it to me, and I have it here for you. Yes!
Hi, Rose. Hi, Wendy. I also have the honor of debuting the jingle for this new type of episode, which I know you had asked our very talented sound engineer to mix up a jingle. He sent it to me, and I have it here for you. Yes!
And then the mass spectrometer weighs those molecules. And that helps scientists identify them.
And then the mass spectrometer weighs those molecules. And that helps scientists identify them.
Yeah, it spits out something that looks like a chart where all the molecules that are present in the sample are broken down by weight. So the scientist gets this printout that looks like... It's a lot of lines of different lengths. And then, so then what do you do with that? How do you go from that to like, oh, this is what the material is?
Yeah, it spits out something that looks like a chart where all the molecules that are present in the sample are broken down by weight. So the scientist gets this printout that looks like... It's a lot of lines of different lengths. And then, so then what do you do with that? How do you go from that to like, oh, this is what the material is?
Yeah, basically. They're looking for the molecular weights of different types of plastic. And in this study, they reported that they did find this in these brain samples. In particular, they said that they found evidence of a lot of polyethylene. And that's the kind of plastic used for plastic packaging and plastic bottles and stuff like that.
Yeah, basically. They're looking for the molecular weights of different types of plastic. And in this study, they reported that they did find this in these brain samples. In particular, they said that they found evidence of a lot of polyethylene. And that's the kind of plastic used for plastic packaging and plastic bottles and stuff like that.
Yeah. And to lay people like us, that sounds pretty irrefutable at first. It's like, dang, okay, they found plastic bits in these brains. But there's a problem here. Remember that the first step of this process was the pyrolysis, the burning part?
Yeah. And to lay people like us, that sounds pretty irrefutable at first. It's like, dang, okay, they found plastic bits in these brains. But there's a problem here. Remember that the first step of this process was the pyrolysis, the burning part?
So of course you remember. The thing is that when you burn your sample up, you've changed its identity from what it was originally. So what was initially polyethylene, for example, would now be a handful of different molecules. And the problem is there are other materials that can break down into those same molecules when they're burned. So it's...
So of course you remember. The thing is that when you burn your sample up, you've changed its identity from what it was originally. So what was initially polyethylene, for example, would now be a handful of different molecules. And the problem is there are other materials that can break down into those same molecules when they're burned. So it's...
Yeah, it's like if you were to see a line for flour and you're like, aha, I know this was a souffle. You're like, well, no, it could have come from something else. It could have come from the pie or something. Yeah, I guess I'm going with it. So I'm approving that analogy. Excellent. And bringing us back to plastics. Yes, yes. So here's what the polyethylene could get mistaken for.
Yeah, it's like if you were to see a line for flour and you're like, aha, I know this was a souffle. You're like, well, no, it could have come from something else. It could have come from the pie or something. Yeah, I guess I'm going with it. So I'm approving that analogy. Excellent. And bringing us back to plastics. Yes, yes. So here's what the polyethylene could get mistaken for.
That's kind of a big problem. Fat. And here's Oliver.
That's kind of a big problem. Fat. And here's Oliver.
The brain is very fatty. Uh-huh. That feels like a huge problem. So I asked Oliver, could this supposed plastic spoon in our brains just be normal human fat?
The brain is very fatty. Uh-huh. That feels like a huge problem. So I asked Oliver, could this supposed plastic spoon in our brains just be normal human fat?
Human brain has human fat in it. Yeah, it doesn't really have the same ring to it.
Human brain has human fat in it. Yeah, it doesn't really have the same ring to it.
And it's not just Oliver that's raising alarm here. There's a group in Australia that was so concerned about the problems of this technique that they really put it to the test. They spiked blood samples with microplastics. So like they had a known quantity of microplastics. They put it in the blood and then they ran this analysis to see could it accurately read how much was in there.
And it's not just Oliver that's raising alarm here. There's a group in Australia that was so concerned about the problems of this technique that they really put it to the test. They spiked blood samples with microplastics. So like they had a known quantity of microplastics. They put it in the blood and then they ran this analysis to see could it accurately read how much was in there.
And they found that it couldn't. And actually, they concluded that this technique is, quote, unsuitable for looking for these particular plastics in our bodies.
And they found that it couldn't. And actually, they concluded that this technique is, quote, unsuitable for looking for these particular plastics in our bodies.
Well, yeah, so I reached out to them and they did acknowledge to me, this is a quote, that the paper is a single study and the science is nowhere near settled. Mm-hmm. But they also say that they tried to solve this problem by trying to remove all the fat in their samples before they put the samples through the spectrometer at all.
Well, yeah, so I reached out to them and they did acknowledge to me, this is a quote, that the paper is a single study and the science is nowhere near settled. Mm-hmm. But they also say that they tried to solve this problem by trying to remove all the fat in their samples before they put the samples through the spectrometer at all.
So basically before they burned it up, they soaked it in a solution to break down all the organic matter, and then they centrifuged it to get rid of that stuff.
So basically before they burned it up, they soaked it in a solution to break down all the organic matter, and then they centrifuged it to get rid of that stuff.
Yes, but other scientists I spoke to were skeptical that they did work or that it worked well enough to get all the fat out, like not even a little residue left behind. And just in general, more and more scientists are looking at this technique and they're saying, hold up. You know, one scientist I spoke to, he was very blunt.
Yes, but other scientists I spoke to were skeptical that they did work or that it worked well enough to get all the fat out, like not even a little residue left behind. And just in general, more and more scientists are looking at this technique and they're saying, hold up. You know, one scientist I spoke to, he was very blunt.
He said that papers that look for microplastics in human tissues using this technique are, quote, garbage. Ooh. And the thing is, a lot of the studies that you see that say things like microplastics are in our testicles or this or that part of the body, they use this technique.
He said that papers that look for microplastics in human tissues using this technique are, quote, garbage. Ooh. And the thing is, a lot of the studies that you see that say things like microplastics are in our testicles or this or that part of the body, they use this technique.
Yeah. That paper, that was, we looked at a paper that found microplastics in the arterial plaque that got scraped out of people's arteries. Okay. And that, I'm sorry to say, did use this now controversial technique that we just sh** all over. Uh-huh. Okay. Interesting.
Yeah. That paper, that was, we looked at a paper that found microplastics in the arterial plaque that got scraped out of people's arteries. Okay. And that, I'm sorry to say, did use this now controversial technique that we just sh** all over. Uh-huh. Okay. Interesting.
When I asked the authors of that paper about this problem, they pointed to the fact that they had looked at their samples under a powerful microscope and they had seen what looks like little jagged pieces in the cells, which they think must be bits of microplastic. So they argue that that meant their findings were legit. Right. And interestingly, the plastic spoon brain paper did the same thing.
When I asked the authors of that paper about this problem, they pointed to the fact that they had looked at their samples under a powerful microscope and they had seen what looks like little jagged pieces in the cells, which they think must be bits of microplastic. So they argue that that meant their findings were legit. Right. And interestingly, the plastic spoon brain paper did the same thing.
They also looked at their samples under a microscope and they also saw some irregular shaped pieces, think that they're plastic. But the truth is that we don't actually know what those bits are. And even if they are plastic, it doesn't mean they got in there from the person eating or inhaling microplastics while they're alive. What do you mean?
They also looked at their samples under a microscope and they also saw some irregular shaped pieces, think that they're plastic. But the truth is that we don't actually know what those bits are. And even if they are plastic, it doesn't mean they got in there from the person eating or inhaling microplastics while they're alive. What do you mean?
You can't just throw out a great melody like that. Or vocal performance.
You can't just throw out a great melody like that. Or vocal performance.
It could be this other very simple but very, like, infernal problem that researchers in this space have to deal with. And that is the problem of contamination because these samples, they're analyzed in a lab and labs are full of plastic. You've got plastic tubes, plastic equipment, plastic fibers that can shut off lab coats. And at any point, any of those things could have snuck into the sample.
It could be this other very simple but very, like, infernal problem that researchers in this space have to deal with. And that is the problem of contamination because these samples, they're analyzed in a lab and labs are full of plastic. You've got plastic tubes, plastic equipment, plastic fibers that can shut off lab coats. And at any point, any of those things could have snuck into the sample.
Right. I could even have come from the medical examiner's office as the brains are being harvested, you know? I doubt that's a plastic-free zone. So the authors tried hard. They talk about it. They thought about it, and they tried as best they could to keep plastic away from their samples when they had the opportunity to, but it's pretty hard to do.
Right. I could even have come from the medical examiner's office as the brains are being harvested, you know? I doubt that's a plastic-free zone. So the authors tried hard. They talk about it. They thought about it, and they tried as best they could to keep plastic away from their samples when they had the opportunity to, but it's pretty hard to do.
There's actually a plastics research group that has set up a lab that's supposed to be as plastics-free as possible, and even they can't get contamination down to zero. Wow! So if some plastic particle or fiber got into the sample, then that means it could have really blown up these results.
There's actually a plastics research group that has set up a lab that's supposed to be as plastics-free as possible, and even they can't get contamination down to zero. Wow! So if some plastic particle or fiber got into the sample, then that means it could have really blown up these results.
I do have to play this bonkers ad that my editor remembers hearing a lot when she grew up in the Midwest.
I do have to play this bonkers ad that my editor remembers hearing a lot when she grew up in the Midwest.
I tried that for one report that I did. This was not for Science Fest. It was for something else. And I just was so embarrassed and thought I sounded like such a fool. I never did it again.
I tried that for one report that I did. This was not for Science Fest. It was for something else. And I just was so embarrassed and thought I sounded like such a fool. I never did it again.
And now that I know the evidence, it's definitely a naughty drug. It's in the naughty pile, but it's just a drug.
And now that I know the evidence, it's definitely a naughty drug. It's in the naughty pile, but it's just a drug.
But... ..you might catch me humming a little ditty about it.
But... ..you might catch me humming a little ditty about it.
That's science faces.
That's science faces.
How often do they find it was, in fact, the person with autism who was doing the communicating?
How often do they find it was, in fact, the person with autism who was doing the communicating?
Wow. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, so in the case with Betsy, the investigators concluded that the sex abuse allegations were totally unfounded.
Wow. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, so in the case with Betsy, the investigators concluded that the sex abuse allegations were totally unfounded.
In the Betsy case, we do know what's going on here because the facilitator like came out and talked about it, wrote a paper about it. And she explained that, you know, she'd had some doubts in the beginning, like, oh, am I really am I moving Betsy's hand or is it really Betsy? It's kind of hard to tell.
In the Betsy case, we do know what's going on here because the facilitator like came out and talked about it, wrote a paper about it. And she explained that, you know, she'd had some doubts in the beginning, like, oh, am I really am I moving Betsy's hand or is it really Betsy? It's kind of hard to tell.
But there was so much momentum and it was so exciting to think that she was making breakthroughs with her student that she kind of let herself believe in it.
But there was so much momentum and it was so exciting to think that she was making breakthroughs with her student that she kind of let herself believe in it.
Yeah, I think that's usually what people think is going on. It's actually called the ideomotor effect, the Ouija board. You don't, everyone thinks they're not, well, I don't know. I would sometimes move the planchette on purpose, but... Many of us just think we're not moving it, but then it does move and especially might move to a letter that makes a lot of sense after the previous letter.
Yeah, I think that's usually what people think is going on. It's actually called the ideomotor effect, the Ouija board. You don't, everyone thinks they're not, well, I don't know. I would sometimes move the planchette on purpose, but... Many of us just think we're not moving it, but then it does move and especially might move to a letter that makes a lot of sense after the previous letter.
And how does that happen? There's also something called the Chevrolet pendulum illusion where you think you're holding the pendulum steady in the air. But when you think about moving it to the right or to the left or up or down, suddenly it starts moving that way. And you're like, I'm not even doing that. But it's just like your brain is sending these very tiny signals to your hand.
And how does that happen? There's also something called the Chevrolet pendulum illusion where you think you're holding the pendulum steady in the air. But when you think about moving it to the right or to the left or up or down, suddenly it starts moving that way. And you're like, I'm not even doing that. But it's just like your brain is sending these very tiny signals to your hand.
And that is enough to make very small movements that can have very big consequences, you know?
And that is enough to make very small movements that can have very big consequences, you know?
Yeah. Because just to be clear, these abuse allegations we're talking about, that's part of the Frontline documentary, not the telepathy tapes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Because just to be clear, these abuse allegations we're talking about, that's part of the Frontline documentary, not the telepathy tapes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Exactly. Yeah. So that's the question, right? Is that what they're doing? Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. So that's the question, right? Is that what they're doing? Yeah.
Yes. In all of these cases, the person with autism is speaking via a facilitator. It varies in exactly what the facilitator is doing and how they're communicating, but there's always somebody else there that has to be there. It's not fully independent. And it's typically the parent who's the facilitator. Oh! Yeah. So the... The one whose supposed mind is being read.
Yes. In all of these cases, the person with autism is speaking via a facilitator. It varies in exactly what the facilitator is doing and how they're communicating, but there's always somebody else there that has to be there. It's not fully independent. And it's typically the parent who's the facilitator. Oh! Yeah. So the... The one whose supposed mind is being read.
They play this at the beginning of every episode.
They play this at the beginning of every episode.
Well, yes and no. So what they're doing in the telepathy tapes is not technically facilitated communication in the classic sense because they're not literally holding the person's hand and hovering it over a board. What they're typically doing in the telepathy tapes, they hold up a letter board and then the person with autism points it. And then they call out P-I-R.
Well, yes and no. So what they're doing in the telepathy tapes is not technically facilitated communication in the classic sense because they're not literally holding the person's hand and hovering it over a board. What they're typically doing in the telepathy tapes, they hold up a letter board and then the person with autism points it. And then they call out P-I-R.
And in fact, the host of the podcast, she said, she just said at one point, like, oh, there was this controversy with facilitated communication, but this is different. This is different. And the big thing that they point out is we're not really touching the kid in the same way that they were touching them before. This method is often called spelling to communicate or just spelling.
And in fact, the host of the podcast, she said, she just said at one point, like, oh, there was this controversy with facilitated communication, but this is different. This is different. And the big thing that they point out is we're not really touching the kid in the same way that they were touching them before. This method is often called spelling to communicate or just spelling.
Well, she points out that it's problematic that the facilitator is also the transcriber of the message. Like if you're holding a letter board, A, you can move it around slightly, and B, you can say, oh, you've selected the letter P. Oh, now you've selected the letter I. That gives you a lot of latitude in deciding where exactly the person's finger went.
Well, she points out that it's problematic that the facilitator is also the transcriber of the message. Like if you're holding a letter board, A, you can move it around slightly, and B, you can say, oh, you've selected the letter P. Oh, now you've selected the letter I. That gives you a lot of latitude in deciding where exactly the person's finger went.
And also they are often touching. So like there's a hand on the back or in the case of the mom and the daughter from Mexico, the mom is often touching the daughter's forehead or holding her chin. In the telepathy tapes, did you watch the videos? I did. So there are videos available for some of the tests. You have to pay a small fee and become a member, but it's on their website.
And also they are often touching. So like there's a hand on the back or in the case of the mom and the daughter from Mexico, the mom is often touching the daughter's forehead or holding her chin. In the telepathy tapes, did you watch the videos? I did. So there are videos available for some of the tests. You have to pay a small fee and become a member, but it's on their website.
And I did watch them. In fact, I watched some of them with Katherine. I didn't see any obvious examples where you see someone pointing at a T and the facilitator calls out P or something like that. But it's clear from these videos that typically the facilitator is really involved in one way or another.
And I did watch them. In fact, I watched some of them with Katherine. I didn't see any obvious examples where you see someone pointing at a T and the facilitator calls out P or something like that. But it's clear from these videos that typically the facilitator is really involved in one way or another.
So we watched one where the daughter is sitting next to the mom, but they have a partition between them. The mom is shown a random number generator on someone's iPad, and this random number, 978, is generated. Here I'm watching it with Catherine. The mom sees that the number is 978. They take away the partition. She's kind of gently touching her on her forehead.
So we watched one where the daughter is sitting next to the mom, but they have a partition between them. The mom is shown a random number generator on someone's iPad, and this random number, 978, is generated. Here I'm watching it with Catherine. The mom sees that the number is 978. They take away the partition. She's kind of gently touching her on her forehead.
Yeah, and here she's got the letterboard up.
Yeah, and here she's got the letterboard up.
It really is. So Kai Dickens, that's the host. That's who we just heard from. She is typically a documentary filmmaker, but she heard about this phenomenon and she wanted to study it, document it. And so she ends up visiting a lot of people who have had this experience with autistic people in their lives.
It really is. So Kai Dickens, that's the host. That's who we just heard from. She is typically a documentary filmmaker, but she heard about this phenomenon and she wanted to study it, document it. And so she ends up visiting a lot of people who have had this experience with autistic people in their lives.
Easily. We know that's true. And actually, the fact that this could be subconscious really explains a lot, I think. If the person facilitating is spelling out their own thoughts but doesn't realize they're spelling out their own thoughts, that explains why they might genuinely think, oh, my God, this person is reading my mind.
Easily. We know that's true. And actually, the fact that this could be subconscious really explains a lot, I think. If the person facilitating is spelling out their own thoughts but doesn't realize they're spelling out their own thoughts, that explains why they might genuinely think, oh, my God, this person is reading my mind.
But there was one case that didn't really make sense. And I couldn't figure out how it was possible. This is a young autistic man and his mom. He seems to be able to read his mother's thoughts by typing them out independently on a keyboard. So in this case, no one's holding up a letter board for him. Kai describes them as not touching. And I watched the videos online. And that's true.
But there was one case that didn't really make sense. And I couldn't figure out how it was possible. This is a young autistic man and his mom. He seems to be able to read his mother's thoughts by typing them out independently on a keyboard. So in this case, no one's holding up a letter board for him. Kai describes them as not touching. And I watched the videos online. And that's true.
There's nobody. They aren't touching. So their telepathy really does look pretty convincing. So for this, I called up Jim Todd. He's a professor of psychology at Eastern Michigan University.
There's nobody. They aren't touching. So their telepathy really does look pretty convincing. So for this, I called up Jim Todd. He's a professor of psychology at Eastern Michigan University.
Like with Catherine, I watched one of these videos with him. Can you see my screen?
Like with Catherine, I watched one of these videos with him. Can you see my screen?
So in this video, the son is sitting next to the mom. And he has like an iPad sort of device that when he touches the letter, the device says the letter out loud in like this robot voice. Uh-huh. So in this test, the mom is shown an image. The son can't see it. It's a picture of a crocodile. Okay. And the son is asked to spell out what his mom can see.
So in this video, the son is sitting next to the mom. And he has like an iPad sort of device that when he touches the letter, the device says the letter out loud in like this robot voice. Uh-huh. So in this test, the mom is shown an image. The son can't see it. It's a picture of a crocodile. Okay. And the son is asked to spell out what his mom can see.
And we can see him pick out letters on this device. And the computer starts spelling out crocodile.
And we can see him pick out letters on this device. And the computer starts spelling out crocodile.
Do you want to see the tape, Wendy?
Do you want to see the tape, Wendy?
Did you see it? Did you see what Jim saw? Yeah. From the mom. Uh-huh. She played again. Okay. And look at the mom, not the son.
Did you see it? Did you see what Jim saw? Yeah. From the mom. Uh-huh. She played again. Okay. And look at the mom, not the son.
Every time he moves a, he selects a letter just before that she has moved.
Every time he moves a, he selects a letter just before that she has moved.
I did reach out to Kai to ask specific questions like that. But her team said that she was too busy working on season two of the telepathy tapes and making a documentary about it as well. So she couldn't get back to us.
I did reach out to Kai to ask specific questions like that. But her team said that she was too busy working on season two of the telepathy tapes and making a documentary about it as well. So she couldn't get back to us.
Yeah. I also reached out to the mom in the crocodile video and I didn't hear back from her either.
Yeah. I also reached out to the mom in the crocodile video and I didn't hear back from her either.
So, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I will say, in the episode, they say a lot of stuff about how, oh, we can do this across the room. And then they start to do that, but then the son becomes uncomfortable and doesn't cooperate. And so they say, well, he needs to sit next to his mom for the emotional support. So, stuff like that happens. I mean, what's...
So, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I will say, in the episode, they say a lot of stuff about how, oh, we can do this across the room. And then they start to do that, but then the son becomes uncomfortable and doesn't cooperate. And so they say, well, he needs to sit next to his mom for the emotional support. So, stuff like that happens. I mean, what's...
You can make that argument. I mean, in that video we just saw, it does seem like the young man is having a good time, like enjoying being with his mother. But I've seen plenty of other videos from other sources that show this technique where it doesn't really go that way. And Catherine has too.
You can make that argument. I mean, in that video we just saw, it does seem like the young man is having a good time, like enjoying being with his mother. But I've seen plenty of other videos from other sources that show this technique where it doesn't really go that way. And Catherine has too.
You know, I have noticed that, but I don't really understand necessarily what I'm seeing. I don't know much about people with severe autism. So when you see someone like kind of trying to get away or calling out or saying, I'm sad. There was a video of a girl who was doing this. I'm sad. I've seen it. That seems like she's saying she's sad. She doesn't want to be doing that.
You know, I have noticed that, but I don't really understand necessarily what I'm seeing. I don't know much about people with severe autism. So when you see someone like kind of trying to get away or calling out or saying, I'm sad. There was a video of a girl who was doing this. I'm sad. I've seen it. That seems like she's saying she's sad. She doesn't want to be doing that.
Yeah, it certainly does. And in fact, a professional organization called the American Speech Language Hearing Association has explicitly said, don't use... These methods of communicating, this facilitated communication, the newer ones that are sometimes called like spelling to communicate or rapid prompting method, don't use them. The stuff happening on the telepathy tapes. Yes.
Yeah, it certainly does. And in fact, a professional organization called the American Speech Language Hearing Association has explicitly said, don't use... These methods of communicating, this facilitated communication, the newer ones that are sometimes called like spelling to communicate or rapid prompting method, don't use them. The stuff happening on the telepathy tapes. Yes.
And one reason why is that they say these methods strip people of their human right to independent communication.
And one reason why is that they say these methods strip people of their human right to independent communication.
Well, yeah. As far as the whole people with autism are telepathic thing. Because, you know, the show goes on to say a lot of other stuff, extraordinary stuff. But all these extraordinary claims, they're all hinging on this supposition that the folks with autism can send messages to their parents or their teachers.
Well, yeah. As far as the whole people with autism are telepathic thing. Because, you know, the show goes on to say a lot of other stuff, extraordinary stuff. But all these extraordinary claims, they're all hinging on this supposition that the folks with autism can send messages to their parents or their teachers.
But we know now that the way they are doing this is with these like letterboard methods or similar methods that are totally bunk. And we can't trust that it's the kids' message coming through. In fact, we shouldn't expect that to be the case based on all we know about how unlikely this is to work.
But we know now that the way they are doing this is with these like letterboard methods or similar methods that are totally bunk. And we can't trust that it's the kids' message coming through. In fact, we shouldn't expect that to be the case based on all we know about how unlikely this is to work.
Well, the stories were interesting and honestly really intriguing. Obviously, there's been skeptics here saying that something else is going on to explain this. So I wanted to find out what exactly was happening. And I got especially curious when I heard a scientist interviewed on the show say this.
Well, the stories were interesting and honestly really intriguing. Obviously, there's been skeptics here saying that something else is going on to explain this. So I wanted to find out what exactly was happening. And I got especially curious when I heard a scientist interviewed on the show say this.
I don't know if I'll be listening. But, you know, this doesn't put a cap on our episode because there is a lot more to talk about when it comes to the science of telepathy. There's a lot to tell you. I did promise you that, right?
I don't know if I'll be listening. But, you know, this doesn't put a cap on our episode because there is a lot more to talk about when it comes to the science of telepathy. There's a lot to tell you. I did promise you that, right?
Yeah, and I looked into that. So after the break, I'm going to tell you about telepathy The pretty like bonkers way that scientists have tried to test for telepathy and the results that are actually quite surprising.
Yeah, and I looked into that. So after the break, I'm going to tell you about telepathy The pretty like bonkers way that scientists have tried to test for telepathy and the results that are actually quite surprising.
Our first question comes from Kelsey on Instagram, and she asks, how do you wade through all the misinformation and inaccurate information to get to the truth?
Our first question comes from Kelsey on Instagram, and she asks, how do you wade through all the misinformation and inaccurate information to get to the truth?
Sounds good. Someone named Nishala, also on Instagram, she asks, have you ever considered doing stand-up? There is talent here. Oh!
Sounds good. Someone named Nishala, also on Instagram, she asks, have you ever considered doing stand-up? There is talent here. Oh!
That's five out of ten, I'd say, maybe. We'll let Nishala be the judge of that one.
That's five out of ten, I'd say, maybe. We'll let Nishala be the judge of that one.
Yeah, I talked about this with Emeritus Professor of Psychology, Chris French. Until recently, he was the head of the Anomalistic Psychology Research Unit at Goldsmiths University of London. Okay. Anomalistic psychology means stuff outside the norm, maybe even the paranormal. Right, right, right.
Yeah, I talked about this with Emeritus Professor of Psychology, Chris French. Until recently, he was the head of the Anomalistic Psychology Research Unit at Goldsmiths University of London. Okay. Anomalistic psychology means stuff outside the norm, maybe even the paranormal. Right, right, right.
Chris has spent much of his career looking at paranormal stuff in kind of a rigorous way. So he tries to figure out if it's real or if there's a more mundane explanation. So you're a professional party pooper?
Chris has spent much of his career looking at paranormal stuff in kind of a rigorous way. So he tries to figure out if it's real or if there's a more mundane explanation. So you're a professional party pooper?
Okay, so one common way to test for telepathy involves something called the Gansfeld Protocol.
Okay, so one common way to test for telepathy involves something called the Gansfeld Protocol.
So the Ganzfeld protocol, and by the way, Ganzfeld is German for whole field. So the experimenters set someone up in a very controlled, very subdued environment so that the telepathic signal has as much of a chance as possible to come through. So the people in the experiment will wear headphones with white or pink noise playing.
So the Ganzfeld protocol, and by the way, Ganzfeld is German for whole field. So the experimenters set someone up in a very controlled, very subdued environment so that the telepathic signal has as much of a chance as possible to come through. So the people in the experiment will wear headphones with white or pink noise playing.
They make sure there's nothing for them to see by putting on these goggles on their eyes.
They make sure there's nothing for them to see by putting on these goggles on their eyes.
So someone's in another room. In another room. In another room, and they're looking at an image or maybe a video clip. And they're really focusing on it, and they're really trying to send it to the other person.
So someone's in another room. In another room. In another room, and they're looking at an image or maybe a video clip. And they're really focusing on it, and they're really trying to send it to the other person.
Just by thinking about it really hard.
Just by thinking about it really hard.
So then after some time, the person takes off their silly ping pong goggles, comes out of the room. They're shown four images or four video clips. And they say, which is the one that was being beamed to you? So they pick one. And so if you were just picking by chance, you would get this right 25% of the time.
So then after some time, the person takes off their silly ping pong goggles, comes out of the room. They're shown four images or four video clips. And they say, which is the one that was being beamed to you? So they pick one. And so if you were just picking by chance, you would get this right 25% of the time.
But lots of these studies find that people pick the right image or the right video clip more than 25% of the time. How much more? 32% of the time. Okay. That number comes from a meta-analysis that came out just last year. They looked at over 100 experiments done in the Gansfeld condition over the last 50 years. Uh-huh.
But lots of these studies find that people pick the right image or the right video clip more than 25% of the time. How much more? 32% of the time. Okay. That number comes from a meta-analysis that came out just last year. They looked at over 100 experiments done in the Gansfeld condition over the last 50 years. Uh-huh.
It includes some studies on clairvoyance and other psychic phenomena tested using the Gansfeld protocol, but it's mostly tests of telepathy. And the authors concluded that there was a small but statistically significant effect here.
It includes some studies on clairvoyance and other psychic phenomena tested using the Gansfeld protocol, but it's mostly tests of telepathy. And the authors concluded that there was a small but statistically significant effect here.
That's not all. You can find something similar with other tests that have been done, like these telephone telepathy tests. You tell people that they're going to get a phone call from one of four specific people, and they have to guess as the phone is ringing which of these four people is the one calling them. By chance, they should get the right person 25% of the time.
That's not all. You can find something similar with other tests that have been done, like these telephone telepathy tests. You tell people that they're going to get a phone call from one of four specific people, and they have to guess as the phone is ringing which of these four people is the one calling them. By chance, they should get the right person 25% of the time.
A lot of studies find they get it right more often than that, 30 or 40% of the time.
A lot of studies find they get it right more often than that, 30 or 40% of the time.
Well, so this meta-analysis, this Gansfeld one, it made a big splash among the telepathy crowd. No doubt. It was definitely referenced on the Telepathy Tapes podcast. And so I asked Chris about it. Did it rock your world?
Well, so this meta-analysis, this Gansfeld one, it made a big splash among the telepathy crowd. No doubt. It was definitely referenced on the Telepathy Tapes podcast. And so I asked Chris about it. Did it rock your world?
Yeah. This isn't Chris's first radio, and it's not his first Gansfeld meta-analysis claiming a 30% hit rate. Okay. He said that there was actually something very similar back in the 90s. He was younger and more naive then, right?
Yeah. This isn't Chris's first radio, and it's not his first Gansfeld meta-analysis claiming a 30% hit rate. Okay. He said that there was actually something very similar back in the 90s. He was younger and more naive then, right?
Well, there's a few funny things that are going on here. So we know that in studies about paranormal stuff, if the test is done by a believer, they tend to find an effect. Well, if it's done by a skeptic, they tend not to find an effect. Like, imagine that you're more of a skeptic, like Chris, and you run one of these telepathy experiments, and you find that people guess right 25% of the time.
Well, there's a few funny things that are going on here. So we know that in studies about paranormal stuff, if the test is done by a believer, they tend to find an effect. Well, if it's done by a skeptic, they tend not to find an effect. Like, imagine that you're more of a skeptic, like Chris, and you run one of these telepathy experiments, and you find that people guess right 25% of the time.
Yeah. 100%. And that's what I've been doing. So the last, you know, month or so. And it's, you know, it turns out scientists have been studying this for some time. And I learned a lot of really interesting stuff. Wendy, like, this has just been so fascinating to work on. It's been surprising. It's been infuriating. Sometimes it's fun. So there's like a lot to unpack here.
Yeah. 100%. And that's what I've been doing. So the last, you know, month or so. And it's, you know, it turns out scientists have been studying this for some time. And I learned a lot of really interesting stuff. Wendy, like, this has just been so fascinating to work on. It's been surprising. It's been infuriating. Sometimes it's fun. So there's like a lot to unpack here.
As a skeptic, when you get a result like that, you might say, oh, okay. All right. No effect here. Done. Right? If you're a believer, you might look at that and say, I'm going to go look through the data again. I would have expected something else to happen. Hmm. So I'm going to go and I'm going to look through the raw data. Maybe I'll get rid of some outliers.
As a skeptic, when you get a result like that, you might say, oh, okay. All right. No effect here. Done. Right? If you're a believer, you might look at that and say, I'm going to go look through the data again. I would have expected something else to happen. Hmm. So I'm going to go and I'm going to look through the raw data. Maybe I'll get rid of some outliers.
Hi, Wendy. So, by telepathy, we mean the concept of beaming thoughts directly into someone else's brain or being able to read other people's thoughts.
Hi, Wendy. So, by telepathy, we mean the concept of beaming thoughts directly into someone else's brain or being able to read other people's thoughts.
Maybe I'll find a piece of the data and I'll just look at this subgroup.
Maybe I'll find a piece of the data and I'll just look at this subgroup.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And vice versa, you know, if you're a skeptic and you get a result that says telepathy is real, you might start combing through that data very carefully, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And vice versa, you know, if you're a skeptic and you get a result that says telepathy is real, you might start combing through that data very carefully, you know?
So to avoid this, there has been a movement, and this is especially true in psychology research, to pre-register your study. So you basically publish a protocol ahead of time saying, this is how I'm going to do the study. This is how I'm going to analyze my data. And then that can't happen, right? This like tweaking and nudging after the fact.
So to avoid this, there has been a movement, and this is especially true in psychology research, to pre-register your study. So you basically publish a protocol ahead of time saying, this is how I'm going to do the study. This is how I'm going to analyze my data. And then that can't happen, right? This like tweaking and nudging after the fact.
And when you look at that meta-analysis, they're not looking specifically at studies that were pre-registered. So it's really hard to know if we can trust them. Oh, no. This makes me so sad. I'm like, scientists, do your job properly. I know. Well, funny you should mention that because not long ago, there was a very concerted effort to do a proper study on psychic phenomena. Okay. Yeah.
And when you look at that meta-analysis, they're not looking specifically at studies that were pre-registered. So it's really hard to know if we can trust them. Oh, no. This makes me so sad. I'm like, scientists, do your job properly. I know. Well, funny you should mention that because not long ago, there was a very concerted effort to do a proper study on psychic phenomena. Okay. Yeah.
So specifically, they were trying to replicate a study from 2011 on precognition. So like predicting the future, basically. Yes, yes, yes. The way this study worked, they had a computer program they were showing to people with a picture of two curtains. And they asked people, of these two curtains, which one has an erotic image hiding behind it? Oh.
So specifically, they were trying to replicate a study from 2011 on precognition. So like predicting the future, basically. Yes, yes, yes. The way this study worked, they had a computer program they were showing to people with a picture of two curtains. And they asked people, of these two curtains, which one has an erotic image hiding behind it? Oh.
So that people would guess and then, only then, would the computer program assign the erotic image randomly to one or the other slot.
So that people would guess and then, only then, would the computer program assign the erotic image randomly to one or the other slot.
Yes. Okay. Wow. In the original study, people got this right more than 50% of the time.
Yes. Okay. Wow. In the original study, people got this right more than 50% of the time.
Which the authors suggested could mean they were actually predicting the future.
Which the authors suggested could mean they were actually predicting the future.
Okay. There was a lot of attention on this study at the time. No doubt. Yeah, and skeptics said...
Okay. There was a lot of attention on this study at the time. No doubt. Yeah, and skeptics said...
I believe so, yes. They actually controlled for people's sexual preferences. So if you wanted to see a willy, you might get to see a willy. If you wanted to see a boobie, you might get to see a boobie.
I believe so, yes. They actually controlled for people's sexual preferences. So if you wanted to see a willy, you might get to see a willy. If you wanted to see a boobie, you might get to see a boobie.
Yeah, so because a lot of skeptics said, like, we don't like this part of your methodology or this thing you did about your stats, what basically happened is that the skeptics and the believers got together, designed a new research protocol, designed a new study they both agreed on. They pre-registered it. They said, this is the protocol we're going to use. Great.
Yeah, so because a lot of skeptics said, like, we don't like this part of your methodology or this thing you did about your stats, what basically happened is that the skeptics and the believers got together, designed a new research protocol, designed a new study they both agreed on. They pre-registered it. They said, this is the protocol we're going to use. Great.
And this is how we're going to do it and how we're going to analyze it. Yes. It took five years. It took 10 labs participating. Yes. 30-ish authors, skeptics and believers working together to look to see, is there an effect here? Wow, a new future is possible. And what did they find? When all this was said and done.
And this is how we're going to do it and how we're going to analyze it. Yes. It took five years. It took 10 labs participating. Yes. 30-ish authors, skeptics and believers working together to look to see, is there an effect here? Wow, a new future is possible. And what did they find? When all this was said and done.
We don't have the same exact thing for telepathy, but a lot of the... issues that this precognition study we're confronting are very similar to issues that people have with telepathy research. So I don't know. I think it's pretty damning to telepathy as well, but would love to see a similar group effort doing some of these studies.
We don't have the same exact thing for telepathy, but a lot of the... issues that this precognition study we're confronting are very similar to issues that people have with telepathy research. So I don't know. I think it's pretty damning to telepathy as well, but would love to see a similar group effort doing some of these studies.
And I'm just like excited to tell you about it. Great. It's all coming up after the break.
And I'm just like excited to tell you about it. Great. It's all coming up after the break.
I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. Yeah. Yeah. Are they reaching for quantum physics here? Yes, they are. Quantum entanglement specifically, which is about like this weird connection between subatomic particles where they seem to influence each other. And it doesn't matter how far apart they are.
I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. Yeah. Yeah. Are they reaching for quantum physics here? Yes, they are. Quantum entanglement specifically, which is about like this weird connection between subatomic particles where they seem to influence each other. And it doesn't matter how far apart they are.
And I did actually I did talk to a physicist who I was referred to by someone who's who's sort of telepathy friendly as a physicist who's also telepathy friendly. He's open minded about it. And I asked him, does quantum entanglement, could that explain how telepathy works? And he said, no. And I said, do we have any known physical explanation for how telepathy could work? And he said, no.
And I did actually I did talk to a physicist who I was referred to by someone who's who's sort of telepathy friendly as a physicist who's also telepathy friendly. He's open minded about it. And I asked him, does quantum entanglement, could that explain how telepathy works? And he said, no. And I said, do we have any known physical explanation for how telepathy could work? And he said, no.
And he's like, look, maybe it happens. But if it's happening, it's happening outside of physics as we understand it. And I'm open to that. That's what I'm open to. Like there's stuff about the spirituality we don't understand.
And he's like, look, maybe it happens. But if it's happening, it's happening outside of physics as we understand it. And I'm open to that. That's what I'm open to. Like there's stuff about the spirituality we don't understand.
All right. So especially considering that there's no known mechanism that this could work. Looking at the research, the Gansfeld, the telephone telepathy stuff, you've got to believe one of two things. One is that the telepathy vibes are there. They're just very weak and very fickle. Or you can believe that there are no vibes. Right. What do you think, Wendy? Weak, fickle vibes or no vibes?
All right. So especially considering that there's no known mechanism that this could work. Looking at the research, the Gansfeld, the telephone telepathy stuff, you've got to believe one of two things. One is that the telepathy vibes are there. They're just very weak and very fickle. Or you can believe that there are no vibes. Right. What do you think, Wendy? Weak, fickle vibes or no vibes?
Yeah, which I think we underestimate when we come up with a paranormal theory.
Yeah, which I think we underestimate when we come up with a paranormal theory.
explanation the human mind the human body common shared humanity you know whatever that is like that is impressive enough to produce a lot of these incredible things that happen between people uh and that's good enough for me personally do you want to try all right we've been working together for a long time do you want to try send me uh think of an image think of an image okay i'm looking how about this i'll look at a painting on my wall
explanation the human mind the human body common shared humanity you know whatever that is like that is impressive enough to produce a lot of these incredible things that happen between people uh and that's good enough for me personally do you want to try all right we've been working together for a long time do you want to try send me uh think of an image think of an image okay i'm looking how about this i'll look at a painting on my wall
Okay. I'm looking at it really hard. Wendy, I want to send this image to Wendy.
Okay. I'm looking at it really hard. Wendy, I want to send this image to Wendy.
A cat. A cat. No, but you know what's so funny? It's an ocean? No. You mentioned a jellyfish. You mentioned a cat. I do have pictures of both those things in my apartment. I just am not happy. That's not the one I'm looking at. I'm looking at a painting of flowers, poppies. Oh. The cat picture's right here. So if I'd happened to look this way, you would have gotten it right.
A cat. A cat. No, but you know what's so funny? It's an ocean? No. You mentioned a jellyfish. You mentioned a cat. I do have pictures of both those things in my apartment. I just am not happy. That's not the one I'm looking at. I'm looking at a painting of flowers, poppies. Oh. The cat picture's right here. So if I'd happened to look this way, you would have gotten it right.
They can click on the link to our transcript. That's where all the citations are. And that link is in the show notes. Excellent.
They can click on the link to our transcript. That's where all the citations are. And that link is in the show notes. Excellent.
Did you just ask people to send us dirty pictures? Curtains.
Did you just ask people to send us dirty pictures? Curtains.
Okay, so first we're going to talk about some of the specific claims made in the show, The Telepathy Tapes. Then we're going to zoom out and talk about the body of research that scientists have done on telepathy. Great. Let's do it. So the show is about people with autism who are non-verbal or who speak very little.
Okay, so first we're going to talk about some of the specific claims made in the show, The Telepathy Tapes. Then we're going to zoom out and talk about the body of research that scientists have done on telepathy. Great. Let's do it. So the show is about people with autism who are non-verbal or who speak very little.
That's an idea that's been around for centuries, but it's having a bit of a moment right now, probably because of this very popular podcast called The Telepathy Tapes.
That's an idea that's been around for centuries, but it's having a bit of a moment right now, probably because of this very popular podcast called The Telepathy Tapes.
What you hear over and over again on this podcast is that their family can never speak to them or really communicate with them until they learn this method of communicating where the non-verbal person points at letters on a board or picks at keys on a keyboard. And essentially they learn to painstakingly spell out words and communicate that way.
What you hear over and over again on this podcast is that their family can never speak to them or really communicate with them until they learn this method of communicating where the non-verbal person points at letters on a board or picks at keys on a keyboard. And essentially they learn to painstakingly spell out words and communicate that way.
And then all of a sudden, this is where the telepathy comes in, they start spelling out things that they shouldn't know. So they'll like tell their parent, oh, I know that you went to Target today. But the parent's like, I never told them that I was at Target today. Or they might say, I know that you brought me cookies for a snack, but you left them in the car.
And then all of a sudden, this is where the telepathy comes in, they start spelling out things that they shouldn't know. So they'll like tell their parent, oh, I know that you went to Target today. But the parent's like, I never told them that I was at Target today. Or they might say, I know that you brought me cookies for a snack, but you left them in the car.
And that person's like, I never told you I was going to bring you cookies. I didn't tell you I left them in the car. How do they know these things? And they start thinking, this person can read my mind. Huh. So if that was all the podcast offered, these like little anecdotes, or there could be a million little explanations or coincidence or luck, you know, that wouldn't be that interesting. Okay.
And that person's like, I never told you I was going to bring you cookies. I didn't tell you I left them in the car. How do they know these things? And they start thinking, this person can read my mind. Huh. So if that was all the podcast offered, these like little anecdotes, or there could be a million little explanations or coincidence or luck, you know, that wouldn't be that interesting. Okay.
But where it gets really interesting is that the host of the show doesn't just take people at their word for this. She goes and she specifically does tests to test that they are in fact telepathic.
But where it gets really interesting is that the host of the show doesn't just take people at their word for this. She goes and she specifically does tests to test that they are in fact telepathic.
Well, so for example, in the first episode, she goes to visit a young woman from Mexico who is supposedly telepathic with her mom. And so like I described, this is a nonverbal autistic person who communicates by pointing at a board with letters and numbers on it.
Well, so for example, in the first episode, she goes to visit a young woman from Mexico who is supposedly telepathic with her mom. And so like I described, this is a nonverbal autistic person who communicates by pointing at a board with letters and numbers on it.
And so this is the kind of test that Kai sets up. So she'll show something only to the mom, make sure the daughter can't see it.
And so this is the kind of test that Kai sets up. So she'll show something only to the mom, make sure the daughter can't see it.
And, you know, the the daughter can't see it. Sometimes she's blindfolded or they'll put a partition between the mom and the daughter. So the daughter can't see the picture. But then the mom says, OK, what am I looking at? Read my mind. What am I looking at? And we hear and I'll I'll play a little bit for you.
And, you know, the the daughter can't see it. Sometimes she's blindfolded or they'll put a partition between the mom and the daughter. So the daughter can't see the picture. But then the mom says, OK, what am I looking at? Read my mind. What am I looking at? And we hear and I'll I'll play a little bit for you.
The daughter, even though she can't see the picture, she starts pointing at letters and she slowly spells out. Remember, this is a picture of a pirate or pirata in Spanish. Who?
The daughter, even though she can't see the picture, she starts pointing at letters and she slowly spells out. Remember, this is a picture of a pirate or pirata in Spanish. Who?
Yes, it was the top podcast on Spotify earlier this year. It actually knocked Joe Rogan off the number one spot briefly. And it's all about how telepathy is real.
Yes, it was the top podcast on Spotify earlier this year. It actually knocked Joe Rogan off the number one spot briefly. And it's all about how telepathy is real.
Yeah, hearing the cameraman's reaction is pretty compelling because you're like, wow, he was actually in the room and looking carefully, right? And he said it seemed real. But the thing is, when autism experts hear about this, they immediately see a problem.
Yeah, hearing the cameraman's reaction is pretty compelling because you're like, wow, he was actually in the room and looking carefully, right? And he said it seemed real. But the thing is, when autism experts hear about this, they immediately see a problem.
And it goes back to how people are communicating and the history of people trying to communicate with those who can't speak. I talked about this with Katherine Beals. She's an adjunct professor at the University of Pennsylvania and elsewhere. And I talked to her specifically about this case. So does this impress you?
And it goes back to how people are communicating and the history of people trying to communicate with those who can't speak. I talked about this with Katherine Beals. She's an adjunct professor at the University of Pennsylvania and elsewhere. And I talked to her specifically about this case. So does this impress you?
The perfect storm to see what's actually going on here. And Catherine says we got to go back a few decades. Actually, the story starts in Australia, Wendy. You'll be happy to know.
The perfect storm to see what's actually going on here. And Catherine says we got to go back a few decades. Actually, the story starts in Australia, Wendy. You'll be happy to know.
Someone there had invented a special way for people who can't speak to communicate. And in the 90s, this technique spread from Australia to the U.S. And it really took off here. It's a bit different from the way people are communicating in the telepathy tapes. With the letter board. The letter board. This is called facilitated communication. Here's how it works.
Someone there had invented a special way for people who can't speak to communicate. And in the 90s, this technique spread from Australia to the U.S. And it really took off here. It's a bit different from the way people are communicating in the telepathy tapes. With the letter board. The letter board. This is called facilitated communication. Here's how it works.
The non-speaking person sits in front of, you know, some kind of keyboard. Right. Next to them is a facilitator who gently holds their arm or their wrist and helps them select the letters on the keyboard that they want to select.
The non-speaking person sits in front of, you know, some kind of keyboard. Right. Next to them is a facilitator who gently holds their arm or their wrist and helps them select the letters on the keyboard that they want to select.
Not exactly. For some of these folks, they actually need someone to help guide their hands to the letters to use the keyboard, or they don't do it at all. Oh, okay. And so once this method started being used more and more, these incredible things started happening.
Not exactly. For some of these folks, they actually need someone to help guide their hands to the letters to use the keyboard, or they don't do it at all. Oh, okay. And so once this method started being used more and more, these incredible things started happening.
Yeah. If you look at the comments, you'll see people saying, this is revolutionary. This has moved me to tears. I'm a believer. My life has changed because of this podcast. And so, you know, I was very curious. And so I listened to it. I listened to the whole thing. Wendy, I know that you haven't listened to it.
Yeah. If you look at the comments, you'll see people saying, this is revolutionary. This has moved me to tears. I'm a believer. My life has changed because of this podcast. And so, you know, I was very curious. And so I listened to it. I listened to the whole thing. Wendy, I know that you haven't listened to it.
Yeah. And this, as you can imagine, that's a huge breakthrough, right? And it got a lot of attention. It was all over the news. It was on TV. There was a primetime live episode. It eventually won an Emmy. Diane Sawyer reported on this as like this breakthrough. And you can hear how powerful this seemed.
Yeah. And this, as you can imagine, that's a huge breakthrough, right? And it got a lot of attention. It was all over the news. It was on TV. There was a primetime live episode. It eventually won an Emmy. Diane Sawyer reported on this as like this breakthrough. And you can hear how powerful this seemed.
If only I could find a way to communicate. Yeah, your child has never spoken to you, has never said I love you. And now there's this thing that says there's a lot going on in their head and they can tell you about it.
If only I could find a way to communicate. Yeah, your child has never spoken to you, has never said I love you. And now there's this thing that says there's a lot going on in their head and they can tell you about it.
Yeah, that is a concern that people were actually people from the beginning. Some people did have that concern because you're holding someone's arm and potentially moving it for them, even if you don't think you are. So it could be that the facilitator is controlling what this person is typing.
Yeah, that is a concern that people were actually people from the beginning. Some people did have that concern because you're holding someone's arm and potentially moving it for them, even if you don't think you are. So it could be that the facilitator is controlling what this person is typing.
Exactly, that kind of thing. And there's always some skeptics out there. But for a while, because this is just so cool to people, they just kept chugging along. But then the cracks started to show in these very dramatic ways because in some cases, people were spelling out very disturbing messages. Some of their stories were told in a frontline documentary. It was called Prisoners of Silence.
Exactly, that kind of thing. And there's always some skeptics out there. But for a while, because this is just so cool to people, they just kept chugging along. But then the cracks started to show in these very dramatic ways because in some cases, people were spelling out very disturbing messages. Some of their stories were told in a frontline documentary. It was called Prisoners of Silence.
It came out in 1993. And here they are talking about a teenage girl with autism named Betsy.
It came out in 1993. And here they are talking about a teenage girl with autism named Betsy.
Social services were called. Betsy was taken out of her home, put in foster care. An investigation was started. But the people working this case were like, can we really trust these allegations? They came from this unusual technique. Someone else is holding Betsy's hand and helping her point out letters, type. So what they wanted to know was, who is writing the messages?
Social services were called. Betsy was taken out of her home, put in foster care. An investigation was started. But the people working this case were like, can we really trust these allegations? They came from this unusual technique. Someone else is holding Betsy's hand and helping her point out letters, type. So what they wanted to know was, who is writing the messages?
Is it the autistic person or is it the facilitator? So they set up tests. for Betsy and Katherine describe the kind of test that they did.
Is it the autistic person or is it the facilitator? So they set up tests. for Betsy and Katherine describe the kind of test that they did.
Kind of, with a key difference. They're showing two different pictures. They're showing one picture to the facilitator, so in this example, a picture of a shoe, and one picture to the person with autism, in this example, a hat.
Kind of, with a key difference. They're showing two different pictures. They're showing one picture to the facilitator, so in this example, a picture of a shoe, and one picture to the person with autism, in this example, a hat.
What you would want them to write would be hat.
What you would want them to write would be hat.
Very fishy. Because that's what the facilitator saw, not what they saw. Yes.
Very fishy. Because that's what the facilitator saw, not what they saw. Yes.
In the telepathy tapes, the person with autism is being asked to spell out what someone else sees. And here they're being asked to spell out what they themselves see.
In the telepathy tapes, the person with autism is being asked to spell out what someone else sees. And here they're being asked to spell out what they themselves see.
Okay, so let me tell you the premise. This show is about a very specific group of people. This is people with autism who are very limited in how they communicate and who require a lot of support. And the show says that people in this group are able to communicate telepathically with their family and with teachers and other people. And in fact, here is the show's tagline.
Okay, so let me tell you the premise. This show is about a very specific group of people. This is people with autism who are very limited in how they communicate and who require a lot of support. And the show says that people in this group are able to communicate telepathically with their family and with teachers and other people. And in fact, here is the show's tagline.
The Frontline documentary is really useful because it actually shows what these tests were like. And they talk about what happened when they ran tests like this with Betsy.
The Frontline documentary is really useful because it actually shows what these tests were like. And they talk about what happened when they ran tests like this with Betsy.
And that happened in every test they tried. Every single test.
And that happened in every test they tried. Every single test.
In studies as well. Every single test? Yes, there was an autistic program in New York that had been using facilitated communication with 12 of their autistic students. Getting good results, they thought, but they said, oh, maybe we should test this, make sure. They tested each student in the same way. I asked Catherine what happened.
In studies as well. Every single test? Yes, there was an autistic program in New York that had been using facilitated communication with 12 of their autistic students. Getting good results, they thought, but they said, oh, maybe we should test this, make sure. They tested each student in the same way. I asked Catherine what happened.
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I think it's really, everybody can find their own recipe. Find something to do that you like, like taking a long bath, going for a walk with your dog. Something that's for you is very relaxing. Personally, I love to go to see every metal concert. I find it very relaxing. And a good way to release anger and I play video games because I get out of my head and I really focus on one task.
I think it's really, everybody can find their own recipe. Find something to do that you like, like taking a long bath, going for a walk with your dog. Something that's for you is very relaxing. Personally, I love to go to see every metal concert. I find it very relaxing. And a good way to release anger and I play video games because I get out of my head and I really focus on one task.
If you have a flu or a cold, your immune system is fighting against this virus. You feel it. With that kind of bleh feeling when you have a cold.
If you have a flu or a cold, your immune system is fighting against this virus. You feel it. With that kind of bleh feeling when you have a cold.
Yeah, and generally you're not going to feel like going running or doing a lot of like super hard activities. You're just going to be like, I'm going to stay in bed. I'm going to rest.
Yeah, and generally you're not going to feel like going running or doing a lot of like super hard activities. You're just going to be like, I'm going to stay in bed. I'm going to rest.
Not only I see it, but I know I'm the first person in the world ever to see it. And so the first time I saw it, I was very happy. I went to get a couple of IPAs because I thought that was really cool.
Not only I see it, but I know I'm the first person in the world ever to see it. And so the first time I saw it, I was very happy. I went to get a couple of IPAs because I thought that was really cool.
What we do after that is we house them in the same cage and they have a plastic transparent divider so they can see each other and smell their holes. So they don't physically interact, but they see the big bully on the other side. I say it's a bit like in the schoolyard, you know, when you see the bully on the other side of the schoolyard, you don't know if it's going to come for you.
What we do after that is we house them in the same cage and they have a plastic transparent divider so they can see each other and smell their holes. So they don't physically interact, but they see the big bully on the other side. I say it's a bit like in the schoolyard, you know, when you see the bully on the other side of the schoolyard, you don't know if it's going to come for you.
You have these tiny holes. So instead of having a long line, you have these tiny gaps here and there. So this is where the barrier is broken.
You have these tiny holes. So instead of having a long line, you have these tiny gaps here and there. So this is where the barrier is broken.
Yeah, exactly. And this is where the inflammation is sneaking.
Yeah, exactly. And this is where the inflammation is sneaking.
Yeah. And so we were able to see the same phenomenon in the human brain as well of individuals who died by suicide.
Yeah. And so we were able to see the same phenomenon in the human brain as well of individuals who died by suicide.
Healthy control. So healthy control would die from other reasons. For example, a car accident or something that was not related to depression.
Healthy control. So healthy control would die from other reasons. For example, a car accident or something that was not related to depression.
It's not going to be good. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. The barrier of the brain became way more leaky in those individuals who had very strong case of COVID. And then even with the brain fog, the long-term COVID, they see this weakness of the barrier. So maybe the inflammation was so intense that the barrier became a bit more fragile.
It's not going to be good. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. The barrier of the brain became way more leaky in those individuals who had very strong case of COVID. And then even with the brain fog, the long-term COVID, they see this weakness of the barrier. So maybe the inflammation was so intense that the barrier became a bit more fragile.
Okay, the next time I dream, I will remember I'm dreaming.
It didn't work.
Yeah, I don't know.
It sucks.
It's not for me.
All the little bits of hair.
lucid dreamy experiment okay I just woke up um I don't remember what my dream is was okay um but so I'll try to remember a different dream I like can't remember any dreams um I actually woke up during a dream where I was covered in ticks um
DMACC on Insta wants to know if you have had previous experience casting your voice for podcasts, radio, TV, what have you in the past. And they say that it is perfect.
DMACC on Insta wants to know if you have had previous experience casting your voice for podcasts, radio, TV, what have you in the past. And they say that it is perfect.
DMACC on Insta wants to know if you have had previous experience casting your voice for podcasts, radio, TV, what have you in the past. And they say that it is perfect.
Wow. Not feminine enough? Is that the idea? That is the idea.
Wow. Not feminine enough? Is that the idea? That is the idea.
Wow. Not feminine enough? Is that the idea? That is the idea.
I'm so confused. You're either speaking too low or too high or like you just can't get it right. Like you can't do anything right. It's impossible to get it right.
I'm so confused. You're either speaking too low or too high or like you just can't get it right. Like you can't do anything right. It's impossible to get it right.
I'm so confused. You're either speaking too low or too high or like you just can't get it right. Like you can't do anything right. It's impossible to get it right.
Wow. So thank you, DMACC. Yeah, DMACC, you're healing old wounds here. Okay, another one is from ThatCrazyMrB on Insta asking, what episode do you think about the most?
Wow. So thank you, DMACC. Yeah, DMACC, you're healing old wounds here. Okay, another one is from ThatCrazyMrB on Insta asking, what episode do you think about the most?
Wow. So thank you, DMACC. Yeah, DMACC, you're healing old wounds here. Okay, another one is from ThatCrazyMrB on Insta asking, what episode do you think about the most?
Now I have to set them aside and I see them there. Yeah, I love ruining things for everybody. I don't eat my canned chickpeas anymore. What about you, Rose? Oh, I think about Meryl's toothbrushing episode a lot because sometimes I'm like, do I really need to brush my teeth? I guess it's just made me aware of like, there's no magic to toothbrushing. It's just like exposing your teeth to fluoride.
Now I have to set them aside and I see them there. Yeah, I love ruining things for everybody. I don't eat my canned chickpeas anymore. What about you, Rose? Oh, I think about Meryl's toothbrushing episode a lot because sometimes I'm like, do I really need to brush my teeth? I guess it's just made me aware of like, there's no magic to toothbrushing. It's just like exposing your teeth to fluoride.
Now I have to set them aside and I see them there. Yeah, I love ruining things for everybody. I don't eat my canned chickpeas anymore. What about you, Rose? Oh, I think about Meryl's toothbrushing episode a lot because sometimes I'm like, do I really need to brush my teeth? I guess it's just made me aware of like, there's no magic to toothbrushing. It's just like exposing your teeth to fluoride.
Therefore, like, I feel like I can let myself have chocolate on my teeth for longer. Giving me some weird and bad habits, I would say.
Therefore, like, I feel like I can let myself have chocolate on my teeth for longer. Giving me some weird and bad habits, I would say.
Therefore, like, I feel like I can let myself have chocolate on my teeth for longer. Giving me some weird and bad habits, I would say.
Somehow it's made me like loosier, goosier with my oral hygiene.
Somehow it's made me like loosier, goosier with my oral hygiene.
Somehow it's made me like loosier, goosier with my oral hygiene.