Patric Gagne
Appearances
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
fake vignettes like well what would you say to somebody who was like this you know and it's like well and then they would give me their full you know download on exactly what they thought how they would interpret someone who didn't feel or didn't have remorse or didn't have shame and it was always evil and devil and these just singular negative words and I remember as a kid not even taking it personally just being like well I won't be telling you anything I'll just
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
It was sort of a litmus test of how, where am I in this? And then it was, I would just look around and find the kid that seemed to be getting the most favorable response and just mirror whatever that kid was doing. It was instant. Like almost as soon as I sort of came online in terms of my understanding of how different I was, I also understood I had to manipulate, charm, lie.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And instantly it was that they were just opposite sides of the same coin.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
No, I think if I could go back in time and undo it, I wouldn't because I have seen what you're talking about. They talk about how sociopathy is so dangerous because the lack of emotion, the lack of remorse, that means you're capable of anything. so are people who are full of emotion.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
You know, it's like crime of passion. Like, hello. There's such a hypocrisy associated with the, you know, so-called disorders of aggression. And maybe not even hypocrisy, but just maybe a lack of self-awareness. And I'm speaking of the general we or the general you in that
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Do you guys not understand that your abundance of emotion makes you just as quote-unquote dangerous, if not more so, than my lack of emotion? And what an elevated conversation to be having. Like, that's the conversation I want. Let's sit down and sort of see what we can learn from each other as opposed to making one group of people the villain and one group of people normal. Yes. Mm-hmm.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
To your point, I want to be really clear too. My intent is never to minimize sociopathy, but just to understand it more clearly. Sociopaths are known for being singularly evil, and I get it. There are people who sit on the extreme side of the sort of sociopathic spectrum that have earned that reputation, but it's only one part of the equation.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yes, I actually do think that there are superpowers, to borrow your term, associated with the sociopathic personality in that I don't experience shame or guilt or people pleasing or remorse or certainly not to the extent that a neurotypical person does, but I think that so many times the conversation starts there. It's like, well, then you're dangerous.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
It's no, I just have to use, you know, when you don't have those internal constructs, you have to find an external philosophy. I choose not to do bad things because I choose not to do them. Not because I have some internal emotional issues, system that's forcing my hand.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yeah. I could not agree with you more. And I have heard so many times people using a similar argument, but aimed at a different purpose, which is that good things that I do don't count because they don't come from an authentic place or they don't come from a feeling place. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And this is not something that I've really discussed publicly, but for a long time, it's something that I did was I would volunteer like crisis counseling. I had a friend who volunteered with the LAPD and he would let me know about different incidents and I would just show up. You know, I would offer to counsel or to sit there or to exist.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And over time, I expanded my reach outside of LA and I just started showing up other places, like large places. chaotic, horrific events just for no other reason than because I could be of service. And that I can be of service isn't attached to this, I guess, maybe altruism in some way, but not, there wasn't an emotional connection. It was just more matter of fact. It was, I have a high
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
emotional tolerance. I have a high tolerance for pathology and I could extend that tolerance to others in these moments. And I've been told by people that, that I shouldn't do this work. I shouldn't talk about it because it doesn't come from an authentic place because I don't really care.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I find that to be just one of the core issues surrounding certain mental disorders in that if you don't care in the right way, then it doesn't count.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And it's why I wrote the book, because I really wanted people to understand that there's more to this personality type than just these sensationalized one-dimensional examples that pop culture likes to churn out over and over and over again. There is so much more to this personality.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Well, if you consider that it's 5% of the population is, that's like the clinical assessment. That's what the research indicates. But when you consider that most of the diagnostic interviews for psychopathy and sociopathy take place within the prison system, there's no way that number isn't likely much higher.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
But yes, to your point, let's just stick with 5%, 100% the same as depressive disorders, bipolar disorders, borderline personality disorders. And I think that the reason that there isn't more is I read somewhere recently that viewing someone who is suffering as quote-unquote morally bad reduces compassion and desire to help in neurotypical individuals, which I found to be completely fascinating.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And my guess is that that's why so few public health resources are devoted to those disorders of aggression. psychopathy, sociopathy, antisocial personality disorder, because when neurotypical people are presented with someone like that, their ability to empathize goes straight down.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And again, that's a conversation worth having because in essence, those individuals who are having this reaction are experiencing a sociopathic reaction. And As someone for whom socialization was really tricky to understand, I'm always really perplexed by the reasoning that sociopaths don't deserve any compassion or empathy because they don't have any compassion or empathy for anyone else.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Thank you. I'm so good. How are you guys?
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And yet these emotions are learned. They are modeled. So how can you expect somebody to demonstrate compassion or empathy if they've never experienced it for themselves?
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
All right, so very simply put, a sociopath is somebody who has difficulty connecting to social emotions, who sees or uses manipulation strategies and destructive behaviors as a sort of maladaptive coping mechanism. And that isn't always understood. I understand that a lot of people, when they talk about sociopathy, it's, oh, sociopaths can't feel.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And the research also indicates that sociopathy, even though you cannot diagnose a child as a sociopath, but it starts with oppositional defiant disorder. And what they're finding is that oppositional defiance is much more easily treated or treatable in young kids and young people. Hmm.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I think that because it's this, nope, they're all monsters, they're all evil, throw them all and they don't deserve to have anything. We're missing the opportunity to reach those kids, to have that conversation early, to address that culture of there's only one way to feel, there's only one way to love, there's only one way to be.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
But one thing I've noticed is that there has been a shift, certainly in entertainment, I was asked by a parent, if you had a child who was acting out in the way that you were, what would you say? How would you connect to that child?
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I explained, it sounds oversimplified, but the first thing I would do with a child like me is I would sit her down and I would have her watch the new iteration of Wednesday Addams, the Wednesday series on Netflix, because make no mistake, Wednesday Addams is she meets all the criteria of the sociopathic personality.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And yet that composite is so much more complete in that, yes, this is a child who is criminally versatile, who struggles to connect with the social emotions, struggles to connect with other individuals, low affect. She lies, she manipulates, she steals, and yet she is capable. It takes her a minute, but she is capable of loyalty. She is capable of deep relationships. She grieves when her pet dies.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yes, her pet isn't that stereotypical pet, but she still grieves that pet. She fights like hell for her friends and her family. That to me truly is a more complete story. example of a sociopathic personality. So I would sit a child down and I would say, what do you think about this? How do you experience emotion? Knowing that there's no wrong answer.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And this Halloween, when I was walking around and seeing all the little Wednesday Adams, not just wearing the costume, but embodying her, refusing to smile back at me, refusing to make small talk, just really owning that whole personality. It really gave me hope for other kids like me to see that representation as opposed to the Ted Bundy examples, as I like to call it.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I think the hardest part isn't me. It's my husband, probably.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I just, he carries the greatest burden in that I don't take things personally. My husband is a hot-blooded Italian. he is very affectionate. It took him a long time to understand that I am not as affectionate as he is, but it's not personal. It's not, you're doing something wrong, therefore I'm not as affectionate. I'm just not, I don't really express affection love that way naturally.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Now he is my husband. He's my partner. I understand that there are different ways and I want him to feel love in the way that he wants to feel love. So yes, I have grown to become more affectionate, but I think for him, it's that constant reminder of don't take it personally. Don't take it personally because he also I think he's someone who likes to regulate his moods based on mine.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
So he needs that constant validation vis-a-vis I'm happy, or I feel this way, I feel that way. And we have to have a lot of conversations where I have to remind him, no, how do you feel? Anchoring with you, and then we can talk about what's going on with me. But I think that
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
But the truth is we very much can in that there are inherent emotions associated meaning everyone is born with them. These are things like anger, anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, sadness, disgust. These are inherent. But there is another set of emotions known as the social emotions. Embarrassment, love, shame, jealousy, guilt, empathy. These are learned emotions.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
having been raised in an Italian Catholic childhood where it was all the emotions were big and his emotions were minimized for different reasons than mine were, you know, because all of the adults were loud and screaming and he learned how to take his own temperature by taking the temperature of those around him. So to marry someone like me, that's a slippery slope.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Or dysregulate. Yes. And again, you're talking probably to the wrong person because this is very much how I feel. And I had this conversation, I think it's in the book, where we were talking about acts of kindness. And my husband was saying, you know, I do these things for you. And I was saying, no, you do these things for you. You do these things because you want my joyous reaction.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
When I do something, I don't tell anybody about it. And to your point, these empaths, and again, there's nothing wrong with being empathic, but yes, that word has become Almost revolting because to me, it's like, okay, oh, you're an empath, huh? Well, why didn't I see you at that huge traumatic event that happened in our neighborhood? I don't remember seeing you there.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yes, yes. And I remember a couple years ago, a friend of ours passed just weeks after delivering a child because- she had been complaining to the doctor and the doctor basically blew her off. It was so horrendous. And I remember saying, I'm just going to go over to the house. And everyone's saying, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. You should just leave them alone. You shouldn't.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I'm like, no, no, I'm just going to show up. That's what you, no, you wait. No, you just show up. And I think to your point, it's not only am I not going to do that, But I don't want you to do it either because if you do it and I don't do it, then I'm going to look bad. When the reality is it's not comfortable for me to just go to that house where this husband and child are alone and grieving.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
That's not a place I want to be. So I'm just going to stay back here and you shouldn't go either because it's inappropriate. No, it's because you don't want to go. That's what's going on here.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Sociopaths have a harder time connecting to these emotions. In the book, I refer to it as an emotional learning disability because I remember being a kid watching the other kids sort of grasp these emotions instantly. And I didn't, I had a very, very difficult time. It's sort of like needing glasses.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I see a lot of moms sort of co-opting the emotional experience. So a child has failed a test. Okay. And The child is not able to have their own emotion before the mom's disappointment or anger or expectations fill that space. That's what I see. And I understand it cognitively. I can imagine how if you have these emotions
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
and your child is experiencing something that's activating, yes, you're going to experience those emotions, but then it becomes all about the parents and how they feel about what their kid is going through or how they feel about what they perceive as a failure. And mine is different. I don't have those reactions. And there are certainly pros and cons with that.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
There are times where I wish I could relate more. I could connect deeper. But I also know that my kids feel that they can come to me with anything because... I'm going to have a response, but I'm not necessarily going to have a reaction. It's going to be their space. Dang it.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Without my glasses, I'm physically capable of reading, but it's just that sometimes I have to squint. And that's a lot like how I experienced the social emotions. And it can be challenging because I'm not living in a world that's native to me, so to speak. But I also want to clarify that sociopathy is different from psychopathy.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yeah, I think it's a control out of control. You know, I understand that, yes, it must be nice to have guilt, shame, remorse, sort of forcing your hand and things, but it's not fail safe. And I think it's used as a weapon. Yes. I think like anything in moderation, sure. Guilt and shame can be very useful. The problem is it's not ever used in moderation.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Maybe you don't. No, I do. I do because something that's come up a lot recently. is I've written this book, it's out in the world and that's met with a certain expectation of emotion. And everyone's asking, aren't you so excited? Aren't you so excited? And I'm not, I don't connect that way, but I wish that I could.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I've used this example of like the kid with her nose pressed up against department store glass. I see what excitement looks like. I see that. Yeah. And I don't, I don't have it. And I wish that I did. I do. Cause it looks like it's It looks like it's really fun at the start of all of this. When I was getting that question a lot and I was having, I had a conversation with my husband.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I was like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm, I'm just, I don't experience things this way. I don't know how many times, you know, I'm feeling myself wanting to go back to the old space of like, I'm just going to lie and say that I'm excited, but I don't want to do that either. You know? So I made a list. Okay. Well, what are you excited about?
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Because maybe it's not, you don't have, you can't connect to it on that, you know, sort of large global way, but there are certainly things that are exciting to to you and fellowship was exciting to me. Conversations like this were exciting in that, oh, I get to talk to other people who have
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
interesting things to say and we can align on some things or disagree on other things, but just the idea of being able to have these conversations, this is exciting to me. But I'm never going to be able to have those, or I so far have never been able to experience those sweeping emotions. I'm sort of glad that I'm in a place in my life where all of the milestones are done for a little bit.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Because no matter how many times I tried to tell myself to not have hope, that hope was always right there that maybe this would be the time, this graduation or this wedding or this birth. And it just never was. And I don't carry that disappointment in terms of emotional sense because what are you going to do? But yeah, I would have loved to have had that hallmark moment when my son was born.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
That seems like it's probably pretty nice.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
A psychopath is believed to suffer from certain biological impediments that make it impossible for them to move through complex emotional development. So while they can feel those inherent emotions just like everyone else, they are incapable of learning the social emotions, whereas sociopaths are capable and they just struggle.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I think so because when I look at the destructive behaviors that stuck, they were always related to other people. And it was never, a lot of times people don't believe me when I say I didn't take things from the homes that I went into. And I wouldn't have dared because they were sort of sacred spaces for me.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I think that that's why ultimately, even though I went into it kicking and screaming, working as a therapist, was the equivalent of breaking into homes. Only I was going into their minds and they were opening the door for me. I find neurotypical people to be really interesting. I enjoy hearing about what's going on and your reactions to things and how you react to them.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
So I think before I really understood that I was going into those houses because I liked seeing I liked looking through people's windows. I used to do that as a kid, just stand there. Yeah, I could have stood there all night just watching these normal interactions play out and without having the pressure of a reaction or a connection. It's like, no, I'm just interested. This is interesting.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I mean, yes, but listen, I don't want to, as much as I appreciate the compliment, I don't want to give my young self too much credit because for a long time, I would have done just about anything to have assimilated.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
But there was always, you know, again, I realized really quickly that I was different and that the fastest way to sort of separate myself from society, from friends, from family was to admit these things. And that's, I think, the big misconception about the anti-social personalities, like that we are anti-social. No, no, I'm all for society. I'm all for comfort and collaboration.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
All of this, I have to point out, is all the more complicated by the fact that the term sociopath is no longer used due to stigma. They recently reclassified sociopathy as secondary psychopathy, which I'm not sure does much for stigma, but it also makes it a lot harder to understand and also to research.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I'm just against your rules of engagement. That's where I differ. And I think what kicked in for me was just rebellion. And that once I sort of understood my personality type, once I had a better understanding of what that meant and what I, like the normalization of how I was or was not feeling, that's really when it was, yeah, I'm not going to be like you. And guess what? I don't have to.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I don't have to. Discomfort's your problem. It's not my problem. Yeah. I just sort of stopped playing the game. And it was very liberating for me, just the idea that, and I saw this somewhere, what is it? Your religion doesn't tell me what to do. It tells you what to do. And that's very much how I felt. It's like, no, no, these societal rules are, these are your rules.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I mean, certainly I understand the difference between right and wrong, but I don't, I don't have to do these things that you guys are all doing. And I find that that makes people, not everybody, but it makes certain people very angry. The idea that, well, how come she just gets to do whatever she wants? And it's, you can do whatever you want to, you know, you have chosen to stay in this small box.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
You can get out anytime you want, but I think it's easier to just be angry at people who don't subscribe to those belief systems than it is to take a look at yourself and decide you want to change.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yeah, and that's what the research seems to indicate, that yes, there are these extreme examples, but they get the most attention. Therefore, the personality disorder has become defined by only these extreme examples, when in reality, the research indicates that the majority of the sociopathic personality population falls on the mild to moderate side of the spectrum.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I think that, again, the reason that I wrote my book is because research, treatment interventions, different modalities. This population is so woefully underserved. I wish I could say, call this phone number and ask for this type of therapist. That's not available yet. But until it is, I would try to normalize the internal experience as much as possible, not the behavior.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I never want to normalize destructive behavior. But I definitely remember that for me, once I understood that the kind of person that I was seemed to align with this checklist. As crazy as that might sound, I felt relief when I received my diagnosis. I felt relief when I saw myself in this checklist because it was okay, like I'm not crazy or maybe I am, but at least I'm in good company.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
There's a reason that I don't feel things the way that other people do. And it's okay. It's not okay to engage in behaviors that are harmful to other people, but you can't do anything about the way you feel. And ultimately there is nothing immoral about having limited access to emotion. It's not what we feel. It's what we do.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
When you're looking up research, you don't know what you're necessarily reading about all the time.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And going through that sort of normalization process for me really took a tremendous amount of air out of the balloon. I noticed that my compulsions weren't as great. I didn't feel this need to act out as much once I was able to normalize that internal landscape. And if you are a parent who sees your child in this personality type, or you have a partner or a sister or a parent who
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I think giving that person permission to describe their internal emotional world without the pearl clutching is amazing. 80% of it. I remember reading in your book, you had said something, you said, I can feel everything and survive. And I remember thinking, I can feel nothing and survive. Wow. It was really like, it's the same. It's the same experience. We're just experiencing it differently.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Yes. And giving other people permission to read that line that way, I think would go a long way in just self-acceptance, which is really, really important for any personality type, not just a sociopath or a psychopath or someone with antisocial personality disorder.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
it's so gross that a certain group of people have decided that there's only one way to be. And then that group of people also just happens to be the group of people that are the least in touch with who they are as individuals. Like, Oh, is this the part where I take life advice from you? Like hard pass.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I'm so glad I really, yes, I did write it for the sociopathic population, but I remember thinking that as I was writing it, I really hope the neurotypical individuals get as much out of this because we're all in this together. We all share this space. And if the only people that understand this are people like me, then, you know, they probably already understood it on some level.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I really wanted everybody to be able to approach this personality type with a different understanding because we coexist.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I remember it probably... Probably didn't really resonate with me until I was sort of actively in school and relating to other people through socialization. But I just remember a very... keen awareness that I was not like the other kids. I had a younger sister, so I understood what complex emotional development looked like. And I also understood that I didn't have that.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
So my sister seemed to take to the learned emotions, especially guilt and shame, like a fish to water. I mean, it was instant for her. And I remember not getting it at all But with that also came the realization, not only do I not get this, but I also understand that I can't talk about it.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Because the few times I tried, it was very clear that adults were not comfortable around kids who started talking about how little remorse they have. And it was very much like a double bind for me in the sense that I was constantly told, you need to be honest. You need to be honest about your feelings. You need to be honest about your reactions.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And yet when I did that, I was also met with instant disapproval and punishment. So I leaned into coping mechanisms, deceit, manipulation, charm. And over time, those developed into a lifestyle. But I remember as a kid feeling like, what choice do I have? I can't be honest. I remember the, and I think I talked about this in the book, the truth shall set you free.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
That was never the case for me, ever, ever. It was such a lie. And I also remember, I remember feeling, so much theory about Santa Claus because, okay. So it's this whole, it's a lie. It's a lie that we tell every kid. And I remember watching them telling my sister like, oh, there's a Santa and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was like, okay, so let me get this straight.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I'm not allowed to lie about anything, but you can create this, this world where this man lives and comes down a chimney and Oh, and don't talk to strangers unless it's this insane person that comes out once a year, in which case we're going to sit you on his lap and you are instructed to tell him all of your secrets. I remember thinking as a kid, this is insane. And being told, no, you're insane.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
You're the one that's wrong on this. And no one really seemed to get that. But what I noticed was happening was, I started to notice this pressure, this tension. And I thought for the longest time that the tension was associated with apathy, with the fact that I was void of feeling the social emotions. But looking back, I realized that wasn't the case. The apathy was never the problem.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
It was the belief system that if I didn't do something to jolt myself out of apathy, that I would be outed and I wouldn't be able to live my life the way that I wanted to live it. I was very aware of rules. I was very aware of right and wrong. I understood that the perks of society were only granted to those who acted the way they were quote unquote supposed to.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I understood that I had to do that. So when I would feel this apathy start to rise or start to sort of just settle in, I would feel an almost immediate... compulsion to act out. And I can't explain it. I can now, but as a kid, I couldn't explain it other than I would just feel compelled to act out destructively. And there were lots of ways that I did this. I would steal.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I remember stealing backpacks was something that was very easy for me. And again, it wasn't the acquisition. It was the action. I never wanted these things.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I would act out just minor indiscretions to the extent that I would capitalize on any opportunity to do something wrong, be it going into my neighbor's house, be it sneaking around at night, just to sort of, I guess, activate some part of me that I felt needed to be activated.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
But on the day that I assaulted a child, I remember feeling that I had been doing, engaging in all of these minor, in my perspective, transgressions. And they weren't working or they weren't working the way that they had been. And I was standing next to this child who was, she was a bully, which is not to say she was deserving, but I remember she was poking and prodding.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And I just remember taking a pencil and just turning and stabbing her with it. And And understanding that it was wrong, I wasn't getting off on this child being hurt or in pain, but some part of me understood that that would neutralize this pressure that had been building and it did.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And worse, it didn't just neutralize the pressure, but it resulted in a type of euphoria that I remember feeling and also understanding, oh man, I can't get used to this. Like this isn't something that I can do.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I would just remember. And again, I'm putting adult words on a childlike experience. So I just remember when I think about it, it was, yeah, you better do something. You better do something. You better do something. You better do something. It was the feeling like that. Hmm.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And it was just this understanding that the apathy, again, it's hard now as an adult because now when I'm apathetic, I really like it. It's like floating. It's wonderful. But as a kid, this understanding that I'm not allowed to enjoy this thing because this thing is going to result in me being essentially denied entrance to society. Yes.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And again, it wasn't the approval or the companionship that I was seeking. I just remember thinking, I have things that I might want to do in life and I'm not going to be told I can't do them because I'm not what you guys have decided is the right thing. I am what I am. I don't know what to tell you.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
So I'm just going to act like all these other kids and I'm just going to slide through with the herd. And just this understanding that if I didn't do something to sort of jumpstart my journey emotional or like internal emotional state that I wasn't going to be able to slide under the radar with the herd.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Someone's going to say, Hey, she's not, she needs to be in jail or she needs to be in, you know, the psych ward or something. And again, these are, these are sort of childlike feelings that I had just based on what I was feeling based on the reactions that I got from other people when I tried to express the way that I felt or didn't feel.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
understanding that things that I was doing were wrong and would result in a great deal of unwanted attention.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. 100% yes to the second part of your question. That is exactly what it is. It wasn't the apathy that was the problem. It was my reaction to the apathy. And that reaction was informed by society telling me, these are the feelings that you're supposed to have. If you don't have these feelings... you are denied entry. Yes.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
And to your first question about what is apathy, I've heard it described as, well, isn't that similar to depression? When I've heard people speak of depression, it doesn't sound the same in that apathy, my experience is that the inherent emotions are there. in that I can feel glimmers of sadness and still be apathetic.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I can feel glimmers of anticipation and still be apathetic because these are inherent emotions. It's the lack of the social emotions. It's more like all of these feelings may or may not be coming through my periphery and I don't care. It's, I don't have any shame. I don't have any guilt. I don't care. And that's what that feeling of euphoria was when I assaulted that child was I had done this.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
I committed this act. I had done it in front of tons of people, children and adults. I knew that I was going to get caught for it. And in that moment, what happened was, is I don't care. It's like, I don't care. Yeah, I did it. You know why I did it? Because I don't feel like you guys probably, there's probably something wrong with me. I don't care about that either. It was just this...
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
glimpse of what it would eventually look like to just fully accept myself. I didn't understand that as a kid, but I looking back, I see it now.
We Can Do Hard Things
I’m a Sociopath: Patric Gagne’s Story
so much more isolating. Like, are you kidding? And again, kids are smart. We pick up on things. Kids know. And you test the waters. You'll say, I was raised in the Baptist church, so I understood these concepts and what you were supposed to do. And I remember I would try using