Morgan Absher
Appearances
48 Hours
Untangling The Lies of Jodi Arias
Hey, it's Morgan Absher. And I'm Kaylin Moore. And we're the hosts of the Crime House original podcast, Clues. Every Wednesday, we sneak past the crime scene tape and open a new case file for some of the most gripping true crime cases.
48 Hours
Untangling The Lies of Jodi Arias
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up. From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing that went into the world's most infamous cases.
48 Hours
Untangling The Lies of Jodi Arias
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
48 Hours
Untangling The Lies of Jodi Arias
Follow and listen to Clues, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House, available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
48 Hours
Tracking a Crime
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
48 Hours
Tracking a Crime
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
48 Hours
The Mind of a Murderer
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
48 Hours
The Mind of a Murderer
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
48 Hours
Poison
He was a pediatric AIDS researcher. He works in a laboratory. What are in laboratories? A lot of dangerous things.
48 Hours
Poison
He came to the door and Darryl, I mean, he just had the look of a man who was experiencing total defeat.
48 Hours
Poison
I said, Darryl, I think you've been used by a woman. He looked up and with resignation on his face, he said, yeah, and she's done a very good job of it. And then he said, I can't talk to you anymore. I need to call my attorney.
48 Hours
Poison
The news shocked Lieutenant Chris Morgan. Somebody came running in saying, oh my gosh, you ain't going to believe this.
48 Hours
Poison
Test results came back, and they showed Eric had received very high doses of a very lethal toxin. Was someone trying to kill Eric Miller?
48 Hours
Poison
Arsenic's not the kind of crime you can commit at any distance. You have to be able to put the arsenic in the food or drink and introduce it into the body.
48 Hours
Poison
I do think that Anne was seeing just how much poison it would take to make Eric sick, sort of experimenting. And then Morgan says she turned to Daryl. Ann reached a point in time where she was ready to eliminate Eric. She needs to make sure that she keeps her hands clean and has a reasonable patsy, that if something does go wrong, he can take the fall.
48 Hours
Poison
We watched her pretty much round the clock. They're coming out. In a space of about six months, she had completely reinvented her life.
48 Hours
Poison
He was just a normal, everyday guy. And she had a new job. Trying a new career, working for an interior designer. Is that what you would normally expect from a spouse whose husband's been murdered in such a cruel way? An innocent person, he believed, would have been hounding the police for answers.
48 Hours
Poison
Ann Miller should have been on a first-name basis with every detective involved in this investigation.
48 Hours
Poison
I think she is a psychopath. She never felt any guilt. She never felt any remorse. He feared for what could happen next. Did you also believe she would harm her own daughter? We didn't know, but I didn't want to take that chance. She just lost control.
48 Hours
Poison
I don't think Ann's got any emotion. Sometimes we would argue over whether his insights were correct. Think you're wrong on that one, my good doctor. Teague was being very objective. Missing the point again. I need objective viewpoints. She wanted him dead, Teague. Eventually. She wanted him gone.
48 Hours
Poison
It was a long, terrible death. Eric Miller, we tore his life apart. We shined a light in every recess of his life. And we found nothing. But my instincts were crying out. This was not an accident. It was a very carefully planned homicide. My name is Chris Morgan. I don't like people getting away with things.
48 Hours
Poison
Both Morgan and Teague believed that an arrest was imminent. We thought we were going to be getting a call at any minute saying, pick Ann Miller up, arrest her. But the call never came. Oh, my gosh. The district attorney's office wasn't quite ready to move at the same pace that we were.
48 Hours
Poison
Why is Rick Gammon telling Darrell that he could be charged with attempted murder? Well, it's got to be that Darrell has told Rick Gammon something. So Morgan asked. I said, Rick, let me ask you this.
48 Hours
Poison
Months. Years. A lot of people said I'd been so obsessed with it, I paid no attention to my career.
48 Hours
Poison
The only thing I cared about, it would seem to the outsider, was Ann Miller going to jail.
48 Hours
Poison
This is my city, my home, and nobody is going to be allowed to get away with murder in my town.
48 Hours
Poison
She can't divorce him because that, in Ann's world, amounts to admitting that she's not perfect.
48 Hours
Poison
Exactly. From Ann's point of view, she would be looked at by her friends as this total victim.
48 Hours
Poison
The main question I'd like to ask her is, why did you think you'd be able to get away with this?
48 Hours
Poison
What in the hell have I got to be happy about? Two good men are dead. Two little girls will never know their fathers. I'm not happy about any of this. My job was to get justice for Eric Miller. Justice has been done.
48 Hours
Poison
Police scoured Eric's place of work for clues. One of my first thoughts was he's working in a lab. Lieutenant Chris Morgan. Maybe something was dripping down. Maybe, you know, he had a roast beef sandwich that somehow got exposed to arsenic by mistake.
48 Hours
Poison
He's in a very competitive field. And I mean, he was doing quite well. Was there some kind of professional jealousy that could have led to his death?
48 Hours
Poison
Darrell passes out the beer cups. Eric had drank half of his beer. He had commented that, hey, this beer tastes kind of funky. Something wrong with it. An hour later, Eric was severely ill. My boss said, we need to go out and question this Darrell Willard guy.
48 Hours
Poison
I very much dislike mysteries. I don't like not knowing answers to questions. I was never gonna quit until I knew what happened to Eric Miller. Eric came home that night extremely ill. He keeps getting worse and worse as the night wears on. He realized that he had to go to the hospital. I mean, the first thing that crossed my mind, I mean, this guy's a scientist.
48 Hours
Poison
He's been ducking us. He's been not returning calls. You know, he hadn't given us an interview at all.
48 Hours
Poison
There was a ton of communication between the two of them. How often? Multiple calls on a daily basis. When you look at the phone records and you're finding phone calls where Ann has called Daryl at 4.30 in the morning, you got to ask yourself, who calls a casual acquaintance, a co-worker at 4.30 in the morning?
48 Hours
Poison
They check into Ritz Carlton and spend the weekend up there, ordering a whole lot of room service.
48 Hours
A Family Affair
And we're the hosts of the Crime House original podcast, Clues. Every Wednesday, we sneak past the crime scene tape and open a new case file for some of the most gripping true crime cases.
48 Hours
A Family Affair
From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing that went into the world's most infamous cases.
48 Hours
A Family Affair
Follow and listen to Clues, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House, available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
48 Hours
The Day My Mother Never Came Home
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads. that may or may not add up.
48 Hours
The Day My Mother Never Came Home
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. According to one source, I found after his death, there were handwritten notes from Officer McGowan in the Visalia Ransacker file requesting that he be sent photographs of all policemen entering the police academy from a particular year. So he was so close, he was right there, and it just didn't line up at the time. He had the right idea.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And I know there were a few similarities between this MO and that of the Visalia Ransacker. So maybe we just go through those two.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. And we talked about this a little bit earlier. Unfortunately, these different precincts weren't talking. So these just on the outside were appearing like two very separate crime sprees. Absolutely. And it's obvious at this point things are clearly escalating. We're going from ransacking to now it includes sexual assault.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But there's also some other ways that EAR's crimes were escalating, too. Let's get into those.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
The Golden State Killer terrorized California for over a decade, sneaking into sleeping couples' suburban homes and leaving behind crime scenes that made police sick to their stomachs. He was sneaky, he seemed superhuman at times, and his tactics were only described as overkill. He was also known by many names, the East Area Rapist, the original Night Stalker, the Visalia Ransacker.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, he was taking their writings and what they were saying as a taunt. He was going to prove them wrong. It was a challenge to him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
It was absolutely a challenge.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I know. And like that is such an eerie similarity that if only these different investigators would have been talking more. Yeah. It's right there. But around this time, we get another clue, a physical description of EAR.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Based on a victim's description, he was between 25 and 35 years of age, white, between 5'8 and 6 feet tall, clean-shaven, and his hair was either described as dark, neatly cut, or blonde. Yeah. Interesting. That's so different between those two different hairstyles. But yeah, also likely because he wore a ski mask or a hood. We do have some examples. So be sure to check out the pictures. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And he also wore gloves. One of the sources I saw said said that he started wearing gloves after police had shared that they were trying to fingerprint on an open channel. Yeah. So clearly following along. Clearly paying attention. Embedding. Trying to stay one step ahead of everything. Yeah, just kind of embedding in the investigation. We also have another composite sketch from May 1977.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
That sketch of EAR was released after his May 17th, 1977 attack on a woman in Carmichael.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. And that to me, again, points to that psychological warfare. He wanted to leave these victims just completely in terror and terrorized. Like, what? Yeah. What do they do if you're getting conflicting information?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And shortly after, he was the victim.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But today, because of some very vital clues, we now know him by his actual name.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I know. I saw an interview with one of the victims and she was talking about her and her mom, you know, discussing this and being scared. Yeah. And her mom had made a comment that I'm too old and You're too young. But he ended up coming to the house.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And the threats didn't stop there. Our next clue in this case is a series of phone calls. These began during this period and are thought to belong to the East Area Rapist, but they haven't been definitively proven. We're gonna actually play you guys a 1977 call For me, you can clearly hear someone saying, I'm going to kill you.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But we're going to play it. You guys let us know in the comments what you think and if you can clearly hear that too.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I'm gonna kill you.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
There's also another list of calls that are attributed to EAR. Basically, he called future victims and would sometimes just be silent and then hang up. Other times he would say horrible things like, I'm going to kill your husband. Some victims he would call a whore or sometimes just extremely sexually explicit things. He also called the sheriff's office and said, I'm the East Side Rapist.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So not sure if he was going by that or maybe just forgot one of his monikers. I did see in one source that one of the victims he called for decades. Yeah. Over 20 years. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I mean, prank phone calls happen, too. So what's to say it's just not someone pranking you? Exactly. Exactly. But we do get another clue from this time period. In December of 1977, the Sacramento Bee and Sacramento Mayor both got letters from a person claiming to be the East Area Rapist.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
One had a poem titled Excitement's Crave and included the phrase, quote, Sacramento should make an offer to make a movie of my life that will pay for my planned exile.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I'm excited for today's episode. I did not know a lot about this case until 24 hours ago. Wow. But you had heard about it before. I had, like, loosely heard about it, but I had no idea, like, truly the depths of this case. So I went... So I deep dived yesterday. I don't know. But you guys, I like did not sleep last night.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
He was very very closely following this along. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And one more major clue we got from these crimes, DNA. Sexual assault kits were taken for a lot of these crimes and involved samples of semen found in the women or on objects nearby. And unfortunately, many were discarded as years went by.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Still a lot of foresight to keep what they did keep, luckily.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, and we're going to extensively talk about DNA because as we will see later in this case, the DNA that did remain from these rapes became crucial to tying all these crimes together.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, witnesses described him as white, mid-20s, around six feet tall with dark hair, wearing a brown leather coat with a stain on the back, with dark pants and shoes. Another witness said the shooter was wearing a ski mask, which we already know was something the EAR did.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
We do have composite sketches of both suspects. And these photos were released in the spring of 1978. I mean, looking at them, they do look like pretty different people.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And, I mean, could have grown quickly or could have just been changing their appearance because it is something that sometimes criminals will do to ensure they don't get caught or recognized. Yeah. But we do get a final clue here as well. An important piece of evidence from the majority's murders was a shoelace found lying in the grass near where they had been shot.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
It was tied in a double loop, so it was essentially pre-tied in a ligature piece. And of course, we know that shoelaces were used in the ER rapes to tie victims up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I gave myself nightmares like, yeah, this is probably one of the more intense cases we are going to cover.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But again, none of these precincts were talking.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And I just want to mention here that all of the cases Kaylin just mentioned will provide DNA later to ID the original Night Stalker. In all of these, the DNA came from semen in the sexual assault kits.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. And I will say I did see in one source that this also could have been because of what happened with Sherry. And Greg, it did appear because Greg was unbound that he might have lunged and tried to go after him. And that could have really shaken him up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And just like all of the other original Night Stalker cases that were mentioned, there was DNA from semen found at the crime scene that was collected in a sexual assault kit. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's a little close to home for us. We're living in California. So a lot of the places we're going to talk about are familiar for both of us.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
terrifying because he's reading the news like he's still looking for anything about himself yeah and it's probably giving him another rush of stuff so he wanted to call a victim which is disgusting absolutely and i do just want to know you know when these crimes stopped and when dna testing started to really be used and i think that's a part of why these crimes all of a sudden seemingly stopped after almost what 13 years
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So 1984, Sir Alec Jeffries actually developed the technique of DNA fingerprinting, which allowed for the identification of individuals based on their unique DNA patterns. 1985, Jeffries' technique was first used in a forensic case to convict a murderer. And then just a year later, in 1986, DNA evidence was first introduced into the United States criminal court system.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So when you look at our last victim, Janelle Cruz, 1986, it could have been the whole reason these stopped. DNA was really coming about.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
It is going to be an intense day today. So before we open up the case file, I do just want to give everyone a bit of a warning. As mentioned, this case really is intense. Talks about sexual assault, murder. So if you feel you can't handle any of those things and the graphic details they could entail, please come back for next week's episode. But otherwise, let's dive into this case.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Clearly someone who had insider information.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, and there was a lot of speculation in an article I saw from 2001. quote, the rapist killer's identity is still unknown, but police say it is clear that the same man described in police records as methodical, sexually deviant, and with above average intelligence committed all the crimes. There's actually a quote from Frank Fitzpatrick that says, quote, this guy is about as bad as you can get.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And Frank is the director of the Orange County Crime Lab, which did analyze the genetic profile on the serial killings. There's another quote from him. The speculation is that he was either arrested for a different crime, died or moved out of the state. And then there's another quote I have from this article. He called one of the victims, Shelby said. It was 1990 or 1991.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
She talked to him for a minute. She could hear kids in the background and a woman.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
This case is unusual because the Golden State Killer had so many victims. And, of course, his impact goes far beyond the people whose lives he directly harmed.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, and a little bit more info that we found on this process from an article. The site provides searchers a list of relatives by degree of shared single nucleotide polymorphisms, SNPs, which is what we're going to call them after that. Yep. which offer a genetic fingerprint. The percentage of shared SNPs diminishes by familial distance.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And so we got him. DNA evidence linked him. And so we have our Golden State Killer identified. Hi guys, welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So for example, on average, individuals share only 3.1% of their SNPs with a second cousin. Out of the 650,000 profiles then on the GEDmatch website, the search identified 10 to 20 distant relatives of the offender. sharing the same great-great-great-grandparents dating back to the 1800s, when families oftentimes had a large number of kids, big family tree split happening.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
From these, a team of five investigators built out more than 25 family trees. Hits came from the third and fourth cousins. The tree that eventually linked the Golden State Killer contained approximately 1,000 people.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Needle in a haystack. I know.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
The Golden State Killer was known by many different names, the East Area Rapist, the original Night Stalker, the Visalia Ransacker, and today we're going to break down each of these eras, one at a time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And so we got him. DNA evidence linked him. And so we have our Golden State Killer, Joseph D'Angelo. And who is he? Well, Joseph was born on November 8th, 1945 in Bath, New York. He was the second of three siblings. Oddly, though, I've seen online in some places that there were four siblings. So a little confusing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But his father was a decorated sergeant in the army and the family was moving around a little bit. And at one point they were stationed in Germany. According to one article, D'Angelo's nephew actually claims that when he was about nine or ten years, He watched as two airmen raped his seven-year-old sister in an Air Force base warehouse in Germany.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Family was pretty hush-hush about it, didn't want to bring it to light. And his father was spending a lot of time away from home. He ended up eventually abandoning his wife and kids to take a job at an Air Force base in Korea. This is where he remarried and basically started over. I saw in one source he actually renamed his next set of kids the same name as the first one.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
All the kids are just named the same thing. I don't know if that's to just get your kids' names right and not mix them up or if you really wanted to start over. Yeah. Wow. After this, Joseph's mom allegedly spent more time on her new boyfriend and his kids than on Joseph and his siblings. So some sources speculate that Joseph had to really help care for his younger siblings.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And as a reminder, you guys, if you're listening on audio only, be sure to check out our Instagram at Clues Podcast so you can see pictures of some of the things we're going to be talking about throughout this episode.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And he had a really difficult relationship with his mom. There are many heated arguments. In the late 1950s, when Joseph was in middle school, the family settled in the Rancho Cordova area of California. In 1964, at age 19, Joseph left home to join the Navy. He worked as a mechanic and in kitchens and was honorably discharged in 1968.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Some speculate that he was trying to gain his father's approval by joining the armed services and due to the fact his dad was so decorated. Yeah. After this, he moved back in with his mom in the Sacramento area and enrolled at a nearby community college, Sierra College. He wanted to study criminal justice and joined the California Highway Patrol.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
He lived in various parts of California for his entire adult life. At Sierra College, though, is where he met Bonnie Colwell, an 18-year-old classmate. They became engaged. According to a Los Angeles Times article I found, Bonnie recalls going on animal killing adventures with D'Angelo. And there's a lot of speculation that he also killed animals in his younger years as well.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, which is pretty typical of serial killers. Yeah. And Bonnie recounts killing doves, frogs, deer, vultures. And there's even one experience she describes where they're riding on his motorcycle and there was... a dog that came up barking at them, and he kicked it and actually snapped the dog's neck.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But what drove Bonnie to break things off was in 1971, Joseph asked her to help him cheat on an exam. Bonnie later said that Joseph was controlling and also weird about sex. He would want to do it repeatedly for hours and always while listening to The Doors. And Bonnie does also mention that this was her first relationship. She really didn't have anything else to compare it to. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But did start to realize, you know, how bad it was. She also notes that he liked to break rules, driving motorcycles over the speed and hunting and fishing in off-limits areas. Joseph did not take Bonnie calling off their engagement lightly. He actually went a bit off the rails and Bonnie had the foresight to kind of know that was coming.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So on the night of the breakup, Bonnie called Joseph to come see her at her father's house. She told him they weren't a good fit, gave back the ring, and Joseph was so upset he actually threw the ring in the bushes and left. but not for long because a few nights later, Bonnie woke up to tapping on her window. And Joseph was there, standing outside, pointing a gun in her face.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
He told her to get dressed and come with him. They were going to get married, and he would not take no for an answer. Bonnie ran out of her bedroom, woke up her dad, and her dad actually spent two hours talking to Joseph while Bonnie hid inside. Something Bonnie's dad said must have stuck with Joseph because he did finally leave and did not come back.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But this experience left Bonnie pretty traumatized. She actually dropped out of school for a semester just so she wouldn't have to see Joseph again. This broken engagement would appear to haunt Joseph for the rest of his life. There's accounts from victims where during these attacks, he would call out things like, I hate you, Bonnie. And so clearly deeply affected by this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, it also sounds like it started pretty soon after the breakup. Yeah, looking back at our timeline, which we will have a very clear timeline on socials and on YouTube. So look for those if you really want to see how it's broken down. And around 1971 is when Joseph completed an internship with the Roseville Police Department about 15 miles north of his hometown in Rancho Cordova.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
They called it. You had police training. Police training. You knew. In 1972, Joseph graduated with a criminal justice degree from Sacramento State, which is the school he transferred to after community college. Joseph married Sharon Huddle in November of 1973, and they went on to have three daughters. Something to note, too, is that Sharon Huddle is actually a lawyer.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Joseph also joined the Exeter Police Department in 1973 in California's Central Valley. And maybe maybe this is just irony. Maybe he put a preference in. But Joseph was actually assigned to the anti-burglary unit. So it's speculated by some that he may have been working or getting intel from detectives on some of the crimes he committed. Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
After moving to Exeter, Joseph began breaking into houses in the small farm town of Visalia, 10 miles away from Exeter. In May of 1973, he committed the first burglary that would be attributed to his nickname, the Visalia Ransacker.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And as we know, the Visalia Ransacker did eventually stop in 1976, which is at the time that the East Area Rapist started their crimes, which does coincide with Joseph's being transferred to the Auburn, California Police Department in 1976. But it didn't last very long because Joseph was actually fired from the Auburn Police Department in the summer of 1979. He was actually caught shoplifting.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
He took a hammer and dog repellent spray.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Quite the items to choose. Yeah. While researching D'Angelo as a possible suspect from this list, Paul Holes called a retired Auburn Police Department officer who happened to be Joseph's former boss and the person who fired him. He said that after he fired Joseph, a man appeared outside his daughter's window in the middle of the night and shown a flashlight in, scaring her and waking her up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
The man ran off but left shoe prints under the window. the officer thought the man was D'Angelo. This behavior made Paul think of the Visalia Ransacker and East Area Rapist, so he started to consider Joseph more seriously, which in hindsight, if those dots would have been connected.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Also, I think what's really interesting is when McGowan had that encounter with the Visalia Ransacker, he pulled off his mask, he saw him. It's kind of around the time of the transfer too, so
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
There's some speculation that D'Angelo was worried he was going to be recognized in the department based on the composite that came out. And there is note that he changed his appearance a little bit, too, when he transferred police departments. Yeah. Yeah. To keep people off his trail. Because of this firing, he did leave law enforcement. So he found work as a mechanic.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
He moved his family 20 miles south to the Sacramento suburb of Citrus Heights. The geographic region links the murder with the East Area Rapist and later with Joseph, who was from that neighborhood. By 2018, he was divorced and living with one of his daughters in Citrus Heights, still in the Sacramento area, the very same area he grew up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, I think everyone should watch some of those statements. There's one woman, and she made a little t-shirt, and it starts off with victim, it moves down to survivor, and then it ends on thriver. Thriver, I love that. She really wanted to make a point to him that he didn't ruin her life. No, she's thriving. It wasn't that power. She's thriving.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And on top of watching those victim statements, I also think you should watch the video footage that we have of him in his cell. Oh my gosh, yes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I'm sorry. But, yeah, tried to really malinger and look older, more feeble.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
jumping jacks climbing on his bed like doing a step up like this man didn't use a step stool he went floor to bed climbing from the bed to the desk to cover a light like yeah I don't know if I could do a step up at my I know my young age of 31 and so to be rolled into court I mean it it was very clear it was intentional it
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yes. And during these these statements by everyone impacted in court, he did not look at them. He was just staring ahead. Coward. Blank. Just, you know, some of these victims did say, look at me, D'Angelo. I want you to look at me. And he wouldn't look. And he did give a statement. And he did apologize. But it was a sentence.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And there's no way. I mean, an apology does not take any of this pain, heartbreak, tragedy away. I mean, it's...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
A lot of them have gone on to start survivors groups on Facebook. Yeah. They're very connected. They would do potlucks after these trial dates.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
You know, one of them said, look for the silver lining in it. And it's it's, you know, us creating this community and it's something to look at. Yeah. And that leaves us to where we are today. The aftermath of these cases. This case launched a massive, massive debate about the ethics and legality of using public genetic databases to solve crimes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And I mean, we were talking about this before we started. It's a hot topic. and an early 2019 GED match, the database that this case was solved with. changed its terms to not allow law enforcement to do searches.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
A statement they released said, quote, the company had faced criticism for allowing police to search profiles without users' permission and decided that it would rather make sure members understood explicitly how investigators were using the site. So it altered its terms of service to automatically exclude all members from law enforcement searches and left it up to them to opt in.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Overnight, the number of profiles available to law enforcement dropped from more than 1 million to zero. Then in 2021, Maryland and Montana passed new laws to restrict police use of genetic databases. Another law was also changed because of victim advocacy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Bruce Harrington, whose brother Keith Harrington and sister-in-law Patrice Harrington were killed by Joseph D'Angelo, actually advocated for California to expand databases of DNA profiles to include all felons. I actually saw in one source that Bruce donated $2 million of his own money to help lobby for this law, which is pretty impactful.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
A description of this, per a footnote in an article, quote, U.S. database laws are sometimes propelled by victim advocates affected by violent crimes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
In California, a campaign led by Mr. Bruce Harrington, whose brother was a victim of murder, resulted in the November 2004 amendment of the California Penal Code sections 295-300 to make California one of the first all-felon and felon-arrestee state databases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
These efforts resulted in a rise in the convicted offender population from about 300,000 to more than 1 million DNA profiles in less than three years.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Absolutely. And we do have CODIS, which is the Combined DNA Index System. This is a database that's maintained by the FBI and allows state and local crime labs to exchange and compare DNA Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Very calculated, very well thought out. And we do know the types of items he would steal from these homes and kind of adds to the mystery and confusion with these crimes. Definitely.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
No, I think, you know, we as communities are, we're not as social. We have social media and that creates this false sense of closeness. But. Are we really connected? And I think given, too, all it takes is some insider information. D'Angelo was a police officer. He knew how to stalk and prep and work the system. And it is just scary.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And something else we didn't really get into with this case is there were town hall meetings. They were trying to get the community really hypervigilant and connected. And there was one town hall meeting And this is what really messes me up and gave me nightmares last night, actually.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
At the town hall meeting, someone stood up and basically said, like, if he came to my house, I'd protect my wife and I'd do this and I'd do that. And shortly after, he was the victim. So D'Angelo was so invested. He was likely at that meeting. And it's just terrifying. The phone calls for decades after.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. And I do think, you know, with technology and his insider info, I really wonder why the sudden stop. And I'm curious if it was because of DNA. I think you might be right. And he knew what was coming. I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts on that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I would love to see some comments from you guys and anything else, anything else that you feel like you want us to know or a bit of info. I went down the Reddit rabbit hole a little bit and there was a post actually from one of D'Angelo's old neighbors. Oh, wow. They put on this post that they were at their home in now Chicago watching...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
As this was breaking and they saw the news helicopter flying over this area in California and they're like, oh, I used to live in California. And that pool, that's that's my old pool. Oh, my God. And they realized that who they were arresting was their old neighbor. Wow. And they were like, he wasn't the nicest neighbor.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Like we would be waiting for the bus and he would be screaming at us to shut the fuck up. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, there was there's one other call that a neighbor got due to their dog barking. Like it seems like he just had a hatred for animals. And this neighbor's dog was barking and he called and left them a message about how like you better shut that dog up or I'll bring death upon you or something along those lines.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
But again, like you would never assume like. Yeah, right. You're not putting that together in your head at all. No, no. So it seemed that he was seemingly a ghost. DeAngelo moved silently through the night, slipping past locked doors and shattering lives in the process.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Joseph DeAngelo terrorized the state of California from 1975 to 1986, committing 13 murders, nearly 50 rapes, and over 100 burglaries.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah, one of the victims does mention how citizen sleuths like Michelle McNamara and internet sleuths really helped bring this case to a close. In Michelle McNamara's book, she shared something that Joseph D'Angelo threatened one of his victims with, quote, "'You'll be silent forever, and I'll be gone in the dark.'"
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And he did. I am looking at some of Michelle's posts on Reddit. This is something we may get into over on our socials or maybe do a little bit more of a deep dive on, but it is amazing to see her comments well before they caught him and how she knew. She was so good and she knew. But that is all we have for this episode of Clues. We hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
We're going to open another case file next week. But this conversation isn't over because we want to hear from you guys. Your thoughts and any theories you might have come across while going down your own internet rabbit hole and all of your feedback. That's what helps make this community so special.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered. Join our CrimeHouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts. All right. We will be back next week with another episode of Clues.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I know from one source I saw, he would actually take these blue chip stamps, which were basically like a store coupon. And if you think about, you know, the single earring or some of the other items, a lot of these felt like they were just kind of like Those hard items to replace but not super important, like he would almost like inconvenience people by taking these items.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And again, the psychological aspect of, you know, class rings and more of those sentimental items to family photos.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Which is an insane amount of homes in one community. But he didn't just keep burglarizing. No.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
This is Crime House.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. It's at this point that it's very clear that these crimes are escalating. And this isn't unusual for criminals to do. And granted, we are not psychologists. I'm not. I'm not a psychiatrist either. But there are many people who have done research on this. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And a lot of times offenders will actually escalate their crimes over time because that psychological need evolves and their tolerance for risk increases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'll be diving into the theories and pulling out the threads that may or may not add up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Yeah. And so it's clear that ransacking wasn't doing it and he progressed to kidnapping or what appeared to be kidnapping. Yeah. And so with this tragic homicide, we do have our first clue. Beth was able to give a statement to the police with the description of her attacker. A Caucasian male, about five feet, nine inches tall, about 180 pounds, wearing a dark shirt and a ski mask.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
This description was widely published, but a month later, with no suspects, police had Beth actually undergo hypnosis. Apparently, it only provided a more detailed description of the criminal. Some details they got from hypnosis were that he smelled clean, had a raspy, loud, whispering voice.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And while there were no good leads from this homicide, it did give police a little bit more of an understanding of who this person could be. Police believed, because he was so familiar with the area, that the criminal must have lived there. Psychiatrists apparently told police that the behavior of the ransacker showed that he would eventually commit rape and be more violent.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
And I'm not exactly sure when, but authorities were able to match a gun used in the homicide to a gun stolen during one of the burglaries by the ransacker. So they believe that the ransacker had to be the one to commit the murder of Claude Snelling. I mean, there's no other reasonable way that this person would end up with a gun stolen. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
So police told the community to call if they had any tips and reportedly received over a dozen calls every single morning about the case, including from residents who had seen suspicious shoe tracks in their yards. They had around 150 suspects. They investigated the case for eight months straight, but eventually it went cold.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
I mean, talk about aim and left hand and the distraction technique and to be able to take advantage of the officer pulling out a flashlight, trying to get a better look at him. I mean, it's diabolical. And I know practically all of Visalia was on high alert at this point. Neighborhood was extremely scared. But something specifically led to this stakeout spot being chosen, right?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Officer McGowan described the man as white, blonde, no facial hair, 25 to 35 years old, 5'10", and 180 pounds or more with a, quote, thick neck. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see these composite drawings of the suspect, or you can check them out on our Instagram. Again, it's at Clues Podcast. And something to note here with this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Golden State Killer
Officer McGowan started to have some suspicions about who this person could be. Right. Based on this encounter and how the person acted, how the person wielded their flashlight. And what did he start thinking? Officer McGowan suspected that this could be a police officer.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Clearly, Cindy is in an absolute panic here. And I mean, any grandmother would be Is Kaylee with Zanny the nanny? Does one of Casey's friends have her? What is going on? You have Amy saying Casey's not at her parents' house because she wants to be away from the tension and their potential separation. But again, Tony and Amy, like no one's curious or worried where Kaylee is. Right.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So the 22-year-old person stole something?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Okay. So your daughter stole money from your car?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
It is. Kind of concerning that you're mentioning a missing child on three calls and police haven't arrived yet. However, on these calls, Cindy wasn't prioritizing that. It was, I need to have her arrested for stealing my car and money. And the child was kind of an afterthought, which you haven't seen her in a month.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Okay, I feel like that would be maybe the top of your mind on these calls, but everyone handles things differently. But the 911 dispatcher on this final call does want to hear from Casey. They're curious, what is the deal? Your mother's clearly frantic, but what's actually going on here?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
What followed was a tangled web of lies, bizarre behavior, and a trial that gripped the nation. As the prosecution painted Casey as a cold-blooded killer, the defense told a different story, one of dysfunction and deep family secrets, which is why the truth about Kaylee's final moments still remain a mystery to this day. More on the case and all of the clues involved right after this quick break.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So Casey gets on the phone and does confirm what her mom already said, that Kaylee has been missing for a month. She also tells the dispatcher, quote, I know who has her. I have tried to contact her. And she goes on to talk about the nanny. So late on July 15th, law enforcement finally arrive at the Anthony home. And when they question Casey in person, she repeats her story about the nanny.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
From everything I read, Casey didn't seem to be frantic, distraught. She was somewhat calm, collected, and just telling police all about this nanny story, which to me seems very odd. But if I had a three-year-old that was missing for a month, I'd be anything but calm. But regardless, police are like, okay, well, why don't you take us over to the nanny's place?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Let's go investigate, see if we can find your daughter. They hop in a car, and she goes with the deputy to a complex called the Sawgrass Apartments to look for Kaylee and the nanny, Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. She points out the apartment where she said she last left Kaylee. The officer goes up, knocks on the door. peers in. No one's answering.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And the more he's, you know, waiting and peering in, it actually looks like the apartment is vacant. No one's in there, which is even more suspicious. He ends up finding an employee at the complex. And this employee tells the police that no one by the name of Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez lives here. They actually never have.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So the officer takes Casey back to her parents' house, and that's when she gives the police a written statement. In it, she's doubling down on this nanny thing. This report even describes her saying, quote, Zenaida is a 25-year-old, is from New York. She is roughly 5 foot 7 inches tall, 140 pounds. She has dark brown curly hair and brown eyes. Zenaida's birthday is in September.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
She also says she met Zenaida through a mutual friend in 2004 and she's been watching Kaylee as her nanny for a year and a half or maybe two years.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. There's one source that I saw where, you know, this friend, the mutual friend that she met Zanny, the nanny through, was even like paying for Kaylee's nanny fees. Casey goes on to describe Kaylee as Kaylee will be three years old on August 9th, 2008. She was born on August 9th, 2005. Kaylee is about three feet tall, white female with shoulder length, light brown hair.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
She has dark hazel eyes, brown green, and a small birthmark on her left shoulder. On the day of her disappearance, Kaylee was wearing a pink shirt with jean shorts, white sneakers, and her hair was pulled back in a ponytail. But here is where accounts really start to blur.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
According to this statement, Casey says that on Monday, June 9th, 2008, which is about a month ago at this point, between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m., Casey dropped Kaylee off at the Sawgrass Apartments to spend the day with Zenaida. Her mother, Cindy, tells police during those calls that the last time she saw Kaylee was June 7th, a few days before Casey says she dropped her off.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Later, however, those dates really do change. Cindy says the last time she saw Kaylee was on June 15th.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But here's where things start to get really suspicious. Casey goes back to her parents' house on Hope Spring Drive. Except Kaylee isn't with her. It smelled like a body had been in there. It smelled like human decomposition. Only there is no body in the car.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Beyond shocking to me. Like, OK, she didn't tell Tony, but like nothing appeared to be wrong at all. Casey does say she spent the next several weeks searching for her daughter. And her excuse for not alerting the authorities in this is, quote, I have avoided calling the police or even notifying my own family out of fear. I have been and still am afraid of what has or may happen to Kaylee.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And she goes on even further. I was never able to check on the status or well-being of my daughter. Zenaida never made an attempt to explain why Kaylee is no longer in Orlando or if she's ever going to bring her home. Here's where she really drops a bomb, though.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Casey says that earlier that same day, before talking to police and finally reporting her daughter missing, she did get a phone call from Kaylee. She said it was the first time she had heard Kaylee's voice in weeks. And she said that Kaylee was really excited to speak with her.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I just got back from Minnesota, took a little weekend trip. Oh yeah, how was that? It was good, but like I realized I'm having my wedding on my family farm and there is a lot of work that needs to get done before. Like on the farm, the farm needs work. Oh yeah, a lot of dirt that's got to be moved, some gardening.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Casey was convinced, you know, based on this phone call and this glimmer of hope she was getting, that it would be only a matter of time before she would be reunited with her daughter.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
We do know. And let's really see how the plot unravels here. Things start to heat up and take a pretty interesting turn the following day, July 16th. An officer named Detective Mellish is looking into this case. I'm not sure if he was trying to find the nanny or if he was looking more into Casey's background, her employment history, but something isn't adding up for him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
He's basically questioning everything, and it's kind of already clear that... This woman is putting them on a goose chase. There's some holes in the story. So later that afternoon, Detective Mellish asked Casey to go with him to Universal Studios. Because remember, in her statement, that's where she's been working for the past four years.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And when they get there, Casey tries to go through an employee security gate, but she doesn't have an ID card. She forgot it. And she gets to the security desk and is asking them to let her in and saying, oh, well, this is my manager. Call my manager. Well, the manager isn't listed in the company database. She's arguing. Supervisor gets called over. They just seem overwhelmed with this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But shockingly, security lets her in. Welcome, ma'am. Come on. Come on through the doors. So she takes police with her to an employee only building and is going down hallways and showing them, oh, this is my whatever office and making a show of it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Okay. Who are you? And she clearly doesn't know her way that well around because she eventually leads police to a dead end hallway. And it's kind of at that point she realizes, hey, gig is up. I don't work here, actually. She actually has not worked for Universal for three years since she went out on maternity leave.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
She's been lying about still working there to her friends, her family, this entire time. Which makes sense why she was always asking her family for money. But this is when Detective Mellish finally says, enough is enough. It's time to come clean. So he brings Casey to a conference room at Universal, and he starts to confront her about all these lies.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And that's when Casey admits she did lie about where the nanny lived, but insists she's been telling the truth about her having kidnapped Kaylee. The detective is exasperated. They go back and forth.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And so later that day, Casey was taken to the sheriff's office and arrested for child neglect, providing false information to law enforcement and obstructing an investigation.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And I also went back because my grandma, like they thought she had a stroke a couple of weeks ago, but she's been dealing with this insane vertigo. Whoa. So if anyone out there has dealt with like month long vertigo or like has a grandparent that has dealt with it because I know it's a bigger thing in the older adult community. It's not like an ear infection or something.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
It also really demonstrates Casey's line here. I mean, to tell multiple different stories to the same friend, almost as if you're forgetting which lies you've told to which people. Yeah. It just kind of leads back to her credibility and how...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Investigators found a human hair. It was found in the trunk of the family's Pontiac, same one that Casey had been driving, same one where they smelled human decomposition. And after running it through DNA analysis, it showed that it belonged to either Casey, Cindy or Kaylee. The hair wasn't the length of Casey's and it wasn't color treated or dyed like Cindy's had been.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They've gone through everything. It's like not positional. She went through like vestibular testing with a PT like they cannot figure it out. So.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And it also matched the color and length of Kaylee's hair. They then compared it to a sample from Kaylee's hairbrush. And when examined under a microscope, investigators are confident it's a match. Investigators also note on this strand of hair that it seems to have decomposition bands on it. Given this evidence, the case is really building against Casey.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And for those that don't know, a decomposition band is also known as a post-mortem root band. PMRB for short. And it's this opaque band that you can see under a microscope. And it's observed near the root area of hairs from a decomposing body. But while this is being treated as a homicide investigation at this point, there's obviously one very big piece of evidence missing. Kaylee. Kaylee's body.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
That is, until later that year, on December 11th, 2008, when a utility worker named Roy Kronk is walking in the woods near the Anthony's home on Hope Spring Drive, about a half a mile away from it, actually, and he's out looking for a spot to relieve himself. And he sees what he thinks are unmistakably the bones of a child. And I believe he also had tried to call multiple times.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I know the poor little thing. She's just like she's over it. She just feels terrible. So we're trying to get some answers.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
No, I mean, more of that evidence could have been tampered with animals. So that was frustrating for me. But on December 19th, 2008, these remains were taken in and they were positively identified as being Kaylee Anthony's. And this, as well as Kaylee's autopsy, becomes our next big clue.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I went down the rabbit hole on this next clue, the duct tape. There was an autopsy report that said, quote, This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place. There were three pieces of duct tape on Kaylee in total. And the tape appeared to have an outline of a heart sticker on it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So on the very, like if you have all these pieces, the very outside heart sticker that someone had intentionally placed there because I don't know any duct tape that comes with heart stickers on it. This I know is a big part of why the medical examiner did rule homicide because unless there's ill intent, why would duct tape be placed on a baby's mouth?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
No, it's on my list. I love Hailee Steinfeld. So I'm like, she's so good in it. Everyone is amazing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Chills. Literally, again, just chills.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. I mean, there was an equine search team that came. The owner of the company didn't charge the Anthony's for this. I mean, it was a massive, massive effort on all fronts from the community and private investigators trying to find Kaylee.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They wanted nothing less for America's most Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Now we have two sides in a trial. There's the prosecution and the defense. Let's cover the prosecution side first. The prosecution painted Casey as this irresponsible party girl who showed no remorse after her daughter vanished. And they backed this up with all the evidence of her shopping, drinking during the month Kaylee was supposedly missing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
There were Facebook posts really highlighting how Casey was out and about on the town. She entered herself in hot body competitions.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Well, on that note, we want to set today's bar high. We really want to do this case justice. So shall we dive in?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah, she was out on the town having a good time. having such a good time that she even went and got a tattoo that said Bella Vita, meaning the good life. And a lot of the witnesses that the prosecution was calling for this trial were people that were really close to her, like her ex, Jesse Grund, who at one point thought he was Kaylee's father.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They brought in Amy Huizenga, the friend who helped Casey's mom, Cindy, find her that July afternoon and bring her home. Casey's own family took this stand.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. Yeah. They even used Cindy's 911 calls and those were played in court as she was questioned about the disappearance. Lee, Casey's brother, also testified and spoke about the car's smell as well as the night of all the 911 calls. In fact, a good portion of everyone's testimony really did focus on the car. Even George discussed the corpse-like odor that he noticed that day.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
You can have all these opinions. There's got to be hard evidence. And after this smell was discovered in the Pontiac, forensics were performed. And they did what's called an air sample test sometime before August 27th.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They feel like this is the smoking gun for them. And this was about a month and a half after the car was discovered that they started conducting this. And we could get into the weeds of how this works. I'm still kind of like science. Where's my phone a scientist button on this one?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But essentially, this test indicated that there were very high concentrations of chloroform as well as other chemicals found in the trunk. And they do this by cutting out a little sample and chemical compounds and they create gas. And it's this whole thing. Right. You guys watch our YouTube video on it. It's honestly mind blowing how we got there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
You know, the fact that this chloroform was found in very high concentrations could mean a few things. It could mean that Kaylee was possibly killed or sedated using chloroform, or it could mean that it was just naturally released from the body as it was decaying in the trunk, which can happen. As a body is naturally decaying, chloroform comes out.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
have been in the trunk and it not be suspicious there is another part of chloroform in this case that does make it sound a lot more suspicious there sure is so the prosecution brings up the fact that they were able to find an internet search on chloroform something along the lines of how to make chloroform during the trial they did as we mentioned call cindy the mom up on the stand and
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Cindy kind of took ownership of that one. She said, no, I was searching something about chlorophyll because the dogs had been eating the chlorophyll, the bamboo. So I was curious if they had chlorophyll poisoning. So that's how they tried to give an explanation to why there were searches for chloroform on the computer. But I don't know, chloroform, chlorophyll.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I feel like if my search terms for chlorophyll dog poisoning were, were that. I don't know how they got there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Just like type some key words. Why do you need to know how to make it if your dogs are getting poisoned by it? Chloroform aside, forensics also find a bunch of small flies in the trunk of the Pontiac, which, according to an expert who testified for the prosecution, means that Kaylee's body had probably passed the initial stage of decomposition before she was placed in the car.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But this is where the defense brings on another expert.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But their main argument, the whole thing that the prosecution was really putting together, is that Casey Anthony killed her daughter by sedating her with too much chloroform and then used duct tape to suffocate her. Then Casey put Kaylee's body in the trunk of the Pontiac and later disposed of it in the woods.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
all while lying and saying that her daughter had been kidnapped by the nanny, who police did discover in their investigation. Zenaida was a real person, but was not a nanny, had no idea who Casey was, never watched Kaylee. So big lie there. Huge. And this trial at this point really did seem to be kind of this battle of experts, which isn't uncommon for a case this huge.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
We saw it in one of our first cases we covered, Lacey Peterson. Yeah. But there's also the mention of the duct tape again. The prosecution argued that the duct tape proved the death was a homicide and not an accident. which the medical examiner did also rule.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They even had an FBI forensic examiner testify about the duct tape found on a skull, and he said it did appear to have come in contact with a small heart-shaped sticker, as I mentioned. And you know where else they found these heart-shaped stickers? In Casey Anthony's bedroom. But another expert brought on by the defense said something entirely different.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They claimed you couldn't see an outline of a heart. So again, just this back-and-forth war between the prosecution and and the defense.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. And I think we'll post the note on our Clues podcast on Instagram and we'll have it on socials for you guys to read and kind of give your thoughts on. But when I read it, I was very surprised by how guilty he was coming across in this note or just like remorseful for his actions. Like, I've let everyone down. Yeah. I've let you down, Cindy, because it was addressed to Cindy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But I've let you down, Cindy, Lee, Casey, Kaylee. It... It's a really confusing note to try to decipher. So I would love to hear some of your thoughts on this note and see what you guys think about what George was trying to say in it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Brand new information. A bombshell allegation.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And these are huge allegations to make. And, you know, despite this, Casey did not take the stand during her own trial. She did take her lawyer's advice and did not get up there. And after nearly six weeks of testimony from dozens of witnesses, you know, these experts going back and forth really debating the evidence and the clues, it was finally time for closing arguments.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
On July 5th, 2011, after 10 hours and 40 minutes, the jury returned with a verdict. And they found Casey on the charge of first-degree murder, not guilty. On the charge of aggravated child abuse, not guilty. On the charge of manslaughter, not guilty. She was, however, found guilty on four counts of providing false information to authorities.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And we're going to insert a little video of when this verdict was read. When I watched it, I was kind of dumbfounded.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
No. So here you go, guys. Let us know what you think of this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
On July 7th, 2011, Casey was sentenced to four years in jail just for lying to police. And she was additionally fined $1,000 for each of her four counts of providing false information to law enforcement. However, only 10 days later, Casey was actually released from jail. Because this trial had taken so long to get underway, she was given credit for time served and good behavior.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I mean, regarding this, Florida has a lot of interesting laws in regards to like information and it being public. So, yes, a case coming out of Florida. It just it spirals in the media. And it really did for this. She was on every magazine cover. There was jury members leaking information to blogs. Yes. There was so much that went down with this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And that, I mean, for an average bear, it is difficult. And I think that's kind of the feat that the prosecution has to overcome is like, how can you explain this evidence and the science in layman's terms? Absolutely. And so It's hard to take a jury, 12 people of her peers, and convince them without reasonable doubt that she did it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. And when you have everyone lying to you, Who do you believe? Right. And when it is such big stakes at hand, a death penalty case, I mean, you have to be 100 percent certain. And they weren't. They had reasonable doubt. Yes. But the public was not happy about this verdict. I mean, as you guys can imagine, this was the most hated woman in America at this point.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And the public was completely outraged. There were protests happening all over Florida. Everyone was really emotional, too. I mean, a lot of people believed that Casey was guilty and that justice had not been served.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Good on Nancy Grace giving me the chills.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
CNN did say that over 1 million people watched the live stream on the verdict, which at the time, I mean, that was a huge number.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. Well, I mean, and this number, too, is even more wild. 40 million people watched this trial at some point. Wow. It's massive. That's wild. The media was heavily criticized in this. They were also paying people. And Casey herself... to access this story. ABC gave $200,000 to Casey in August 2008, shortly after she'd been arrested.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
The payment was so they could use family photos and videos of Kaylee, which she then apparently used to pay her legal bills.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
That's a crazy little fact. Yeah. Look at you. That's how they get around it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
It has been only 14 years since the trial ended and people continue to still wonder why the jury decided on a not guilty verdict. I know myself before I really got into this and started looking up the definitions for everything she was charged with and, you know, what the definition of just reasonable doubt is. I myself question.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And this really could have. This would have changed.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. Where's my botched button? Where's my botched button?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Slam it. So about a year after the trial, it was actually discovered that computer investigators failed to look at all the web browsers used. And just think about you guys out there. Like, I myself am a Safari girl. That's all I use. Justin uses Google Chrome. There's Firefox. There's so many different browsers.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So when investigators were going through the family's computers, they only looked at Internet Explorer searches, not the additional history on those other search engines. which Casey's preferred browser was Firefox.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
So when they did this, there was new evidence that showed someone searched for, quote, foolproof suffocation and clicked on an article about poison and putting a plastic bag over someone's head. And all of these searches were done on the very day Kaylee was last seen alive.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
No, I mean, that is that would have been in my eyes the smoking gun to this case.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
There were some people on the jury that came out afterwards and said they couldn't see her doing it. She was just too pretty and put together.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They definitely played it up. And I think it speaks to, you know, the halo effect and how you can present someone so doe-eyed and endearing and an image is perceived on that. And it's just it's pretty baffling.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
something's wrong i think my daughter did this yeah and something we have not talked about which is the smoking gun for a lot of people as they dissect this case casey was in jail for quite some time and her parents visited her there's one clip i've seen and her dad is saying you know things like you know papa loves you and blah blah i wish i could give you a hug and mom chimes in like
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Casey, people are saying that Kaylee's dead. And she just rolls her eyes and says, surprise, surprise. Yeah. So, you know, there's so much in this case. Like, I don't, again, like going back to the jury, I'm like, I don't know how a jury could see that and just be like, your daughter's still missing, but you say surprise, surprise. Clearly, this family was so dysfunctional. Everyone's lying.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
We will never know what happened in this case.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
They're still like somewhat changing their stories in recent interviews. And what's crazy to me is now you have Casey going on social media and saying, I'm an advocate. I'm a legal advocate.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. I mean, he just basically said, you know, he went to work. I think I think that's what's so hard to kind of wrap my head around in this case is it's there's so much pathological line. And when you get to a point, you know, it's clear if you look at Casey's story, a lot of it doesn't add up. But it seems like she believes it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And I'm not a psychologist, but if you get into pathological lying, you will oftentimes see that. Pathological liars do start to believe their own lies. It becomes the new reality. Their brain rewrites it that way. And so I don't think we'll ever know what happened. We have what Casey says happened, what George says happened. And then there's the truth.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Yeah. There is a lot to unpack here when it comes to Casey, Anthony. Like the fact that according to a friend, when Casey learns she's first pregnant, she considers giving the baby up for adoption. She actually doesn't really tell her family she's pregnant right away. It's about seven months in her pregnancy when family finally are like, OK, no, like you're actually pregnant.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And I don't know if we're ever going to get there. And there was this lack of... anxiety, remorse. I mean, to go dance on tabletops and get a tattoo. I think what I think of this case is probably clearly coming out at this point.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I know. Whether it's guilt or true sadness. Yeah, right, right. I'm curious to see where all of you fall on this case. You know, I think given all of this evidence, knowing how much we know now, what would you have done if you were on the jury?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Hi, welcome back to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I know I have seen that mom still talks periodically. And when asked what she thinks about the verdict, she feels that justice was enacted how it should have been.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
With that, it is time to close this case file. In the end, no matter what anyone believes happened, one fact remains. Kaylee Anthony is gone. If she was alive today, she'd be turning 20 years old on August 9th, 2025. She'd probably be in college, thinking about the next chapter of her life, what careers she wanted to pursue, who she was dating, who she wanted to spend the rest of her life with.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
But up until that point, she was saying, no, I'm not. I'm not even having sex yet. And so at that point, you know, Casey says, I want to give the baby up for adoption. And her parents really step in and say, no, no, no, no. You're going to keep this child and we'll help you. We're going to. Step in and whatever you need, we'll make sure everything works out.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Instead, no one will ever know where Kaylee's life might have taken her.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
It really does. The whole reason we dove into this case is because of you guys commenting. So please leave comments about any other cases you want us to cover. Some lesser known ones that might need some eyes and ears on it to bring awareness. At Crime House, we really do value your support. So share your thoughts on social media.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Which Casey and Kaylee were still living at. I mean, in one source, this kind of started from the very minute Kaylee was born. There was a note that Cindy actually held Kaylee before Casey did. And so her mom was really trying to step in or it would seem kind of assert herself in a more motherly role. And it was around June 16th, 2008, that a 22-year-old Casey had supposedly had enough.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
She takes the almost three-year-old Kaylee and leaves her parents' house, allegedly after a big disagreement. She tells Cindy she's bringing Kaylee to go stay with a nanny for the day. Someone named Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, sometimes referred to as Zanny the Nanny. But the following day, Casey isn't back, and neither is Kaylee, which is a big deal because the two of them still live there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Instead, Casey calls Cindy and says she, Zenaida, the nanny, and Kaylee are all headed to Tampa for a work trip that she has to go on. Remember, she is working as an event planner for Universal. But after that, they don't see Casey or Kaylee for the next month. Now, according to Casey's boyfriend, Tony, there was no work trip, actually.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'll be diving into the theories and pulling out the threads that may or may not add up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
During that time, it seemed Casey bounced between Tony's house and another friend's place, Amy Huizenga's. Amy actually says Casey said that she was trying to keep Kaylee away from negativity at her home, caused by her parents' arguments and potential separation. But here's where things start to get really suspicious.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
On the evening of July 15th, about a month later, Casey goes back to her parents' house on Hope Spring Drive. Except Kaylee isn't with her. And Cindy apparently overhears Casey telling her brother Lee why Kaylee isn't with her. She says the nanny stole her and refuses to give her back.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
Which brings us to our first major clue, or what a lot of people consider to be the first clue, the scent in the car. Earlier, I mentioned that George had worked in law enforcement, right? Well, the first thing that came to his mind when he opened those car doors, it smelled like a body had been in there. It smelled like human decomposition. But he's not the only one that thought this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
There was a supervisor for the tow truck company that said the same thing. Smells like there was a dead body inside. Only, there is no body in the car. No obvious sign of one either. What there is in the car, in the trunk, is a big bag of trash and a stain where the trash was.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
I did have to work on cadavers in anatomy lab in undergrad. But the thing is like the formaldehyde smell is so overpowering by that point that you don't get a true sense of what just decomposition is.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
No, but you smell animals in Minnesota like world kill or like you encounter things like that. Like there there is a smell to rotting flesh.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
My alarm bells would be ringing. But, you know, given that this girl doesn't like to even fill up her own car and touch a gas pump. Hey, your dad put trash in the car for you to throw away. I could see I'm not going to touch it. Yeah, that's not my job. And it would appear that Casey was, I don't know, telling people different reasons for the smell. Like she doesn't note the trash to her friend.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Caylee Anthony
She actually tells her friend Amy Huizenga that the smell in her car could be coming from her hitting a dead animal. Right, right. So we're getting some conflicting info on the trunk smell here. Yes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Sir, you're at a vigil for your missing pregnant wife. Can't you call your affair partner later?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It's not just this. There's a lot of comments that Scott made to Amber that she shared with police and all throughout this investigation. But there was one that really... Alarm bells went off for me when I heard this. Amber mentioned that on December 23rd, Scott had actually called her and talked about wanting to go get a vasectomy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And as we know, December 23rd, he was at a doctor's appointment with Lacey.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Clues is a part of CrimeHouse. And at Crime House, we value your support. Please share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review, and follow clues to help others discover our show. For bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It is quite bizarre. You would assume as someone who had a wife that was missing, he'd be going above and beyond, making every call, making sure every lead was thoroughly investigated and following up and all of this. And he wasn't.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
There's even one account where he was talking to someone and was telling them, yep, I'm standing by at an airport ready to hop on a flight and go and investigate if I need to. And he was nowhere near an airport at that time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It wasn't just the home either. He actually ended up selling Lacey's car. Making decisions that you would make as a couple or, hey, we don't have answers yet. It's only been, I don't know, a little over a month at this point. And he decides to sell her car. What's she going to drive when she comes back? So that was really kind of goofy to me.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And it gets even weirder when, you know, later on, family and people start going into the home and they notice that Connor's nursery, something Lacey had really spent time preparing, Scott had ended up turning into a storage unit, basically.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
There was stuff everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere. And... He did end up getting a storage unit, interestingly enough. And this might be the worst one for me. In that unit, in a wastebasket, was Scott and Lacey's wedding album. Wow.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I have no words. And you could say everyone handles traumatic, difficult, scary life events differently. But for me, if my partner was missing, that would be the last thing on my mind.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. It's very apparent at this point that Scott is really just withdrawing from the investigation more and more each day. He's he's honestly seemingly to a lot of people uninterested.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And I believe Amber, you know, kind of played it off as she didn't listen to the news and things like that. So they were still able to carry on this seemingly normal relationship. But... Amber did eventually confront Scott and asked him, hey, why, you know, back in early December, December 9th, why did you tell me that your wife was dead? And Scott really did not have a reason for her.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
He he kind of just tried to, like, sweep it under the rug and move past it and say,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. And they they really stood by him, you know, despite a lot of suspicious comments and weird things coming up. I saw one comment that the day after Lacey went missing, Scott was asking if cadaver dogs were going to be used in the investigation. And, you know, at this point, it's still a missing persons case. So, yeah. And so when Amber came forward, which I completely agree, very interesting.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Stay with us because we're about to break down the details that had the entire country captivated back in 2002 and still have people actively debating to this day. Okay, here we go. Our very first episode of Clues. Our very first episode. I'm so excited. It's been a long time coming. It has been a long time coming, and I'm sitting here. I'm very nervous, you guys.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
you know, commendable, very risky for her, they were done. And at this point, there's some comments that Sharon actually went to Scott and said, where is my daughter?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
no one bought it like it just it really tanked his reputation even more than it was already tanked and didn't he try to lie about the picture that came out about him and amber too oh yeah yeah yeah like one of these pictures from the holiday party he went to with amber it ended up getting sold to a tabloid from someone it was a company holiday party for i don't know it got sold and he tried to be like is that me
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah, so clue number one is autopsy report. At this point, all hope that they would be found safe completely vanished, as Lacey and Connor's bodies were found on April 13th and April 14th, 2003. And we have some details from this autopsy report, but it is pretty graphic, so listener discretion is advised. If you guys want to skip past this, markers will be in the description.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Please feel free to do so. According to the autopsy, Lacey's head and parts of her limbs were missing, but her cause of death was labeled as undetermined because there was no evidence of any man-made wounds. Basically, there was no way to definitively say what happened to her and Connor with 100% certainty.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Lacey's autopsy revealed that she had cracked ribs and her uterus and cervix were still intact. She was missing almost all of her internal organs, but the examiner speculated that the uterus was okay because of its location anatomically, and it was, you know, deeper in the pelvis. And this did provide some info.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It showed that, you know, she never went into labor, no baby passed through the birth canal, and that will come up in our discussion. Yeah. The right side of Connor's body was mutilated. The medical examiner pointed out that the baby's umbilical cord appeared to be torn. It wasn't cut or clamped as you would see in normal birth practices.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
According to that same forensic pathologist, Connor was in the womb until shortly before the bodies were found. But it's unclear how he came out of her body due to the condition Lacey's body was found in. Reports also say that there was a piece of plastic around Connor's neck and that there was also tape on Lacey's lower torso.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I'm sweating, and I don't know if that's because it's our first episode.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
The medical examiner said that he believed the plastic found around Connor was debris. There had been a storm, you know, recently and concluded that. But he did say that the duct tape was deliberately placed or appeared to be.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And something I think that is crucial to mention here is where the bodies were found. And that is near the Berkeley Marina. The same place that Scott claimed he'd been fishing on the day that Lacey disappeared. The same place he handed over that parking ticket to investigators.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah, I believe they found not one, not two, not three, but four cell phones in this bag. And which put all these items in a bag. It's a go bag.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
$15,000 cash. You're planning on being gone for a while. I mean, to carry that much money on your person's just... To go golfing, to bop around town, like that's an insane amount of money to carry on you. So it really, to me, to me, looks like he was ready to go at any moment.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And something that really kind of speaks to this and maybe maybe, you know, Scott's mindset here is when Lacey and Connor's bodies were discovered, he didn't even make any calls.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Oh, I think this is going to be a have your cake and eat it, too.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
That's what I saw in some of the sources.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But I want to get into a few more of these clues. But can you give us a little bit more background on Scott's boat first?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Which brings us to our second clue, which is two dark strands of hair that were found in a pair of pliers on Scott's boat. Initially, it was reported that only one strand of hair was found. But months later, it came out that there was actually a second strand of hair that was found in the evidence envelope. And investigators sent the strand off to the FBI for testing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And sure enough, it came back as a match for Lacey.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I mean, it would seemingly have to be kind of intentional for it to get caught. I shed everywhere. Like if you went and looked in my car right now, there'd be blonde hairs everywhere. But it was the fact that they were wrapped up in those pliers. And it's not odd for someone to have pliers on a boat, especially when fishing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
You know, you could use them to take a fish off of your hook or cut a line that got tangled or whatever. It's not that. It's the fact that by his own admission, Scott said Lacey had never been on the boat. Right.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. Clue number three, the cement anchors, which is a clue that is sometimes not even mentioned in documentaries or podcasts that you see on this case because it is so contested. And at first I was envisioning kind of that standard ship anchor, the nautical one. Sometimes people have as decorations in their home. But this anchor was not that. This was actually a bucket anchor.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It basically looks like you took a small bucket and just poured cement in it. It has the same shape. It's cylindrical. It's a little wider on the top than the bottom. Sometimes you put metal rebar at the top to be able to tie a rope with it then. It's a very common way to DIY anchors if you want to save a little money and...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
and not buy an actual one yeah and there's even videos that walk you through it on youtube so not not that odd and i did find a report that said that scott went out and bought cement not long before lacy disappeared and buying cement in itself is not suspicious I mean, I use similar cement anchors for my stands at my podcast studio.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. When investigators went to check out Scott's boat, they found that inside of the boat there was a homemade concrete anchor that he had made. But as they're looking around his warehouse where he keeps this boat and made the anchor, there's concrete dust everywhere. It's all over the boat. The floor leading out of the warehouse onto the sidewalk outside.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
They actually even ended up finding some concrete in his home. Wow. And in a boat cover for the boat that was then found in the shed later. Covered in gas, but... We're not going to go there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Most of this concrete dust was nearby where Scott said he had made the anchor. But investigators noticed that there's also four indentations of where it looks like additional anchors could have been made. I mean, there's dust everywhere, which is kind of messy for making one anchor. But there's also no dust in four other spots.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So imagine you're making a pastry or putting cinnamon on the top of a coffee.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
You put a stencil there, powder your sugar where you pick up the stencil. There's no powdered sugar.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
That's kind of what investigators thought they were seeing in Scott's warehouse.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. And we do have the pictures.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I know, what are we going to end up calling this family?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I mean, the fact that there was this dust everywhere to make just one anchor, kind of odd. Right. But Scott also told police that he used only part of a 90-pound bag of concrete to make this single anchor that was found on his boat. But there was way too much concrete missing for only one anchor to have been made. Right. So then where is the rest of the concrete?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So Scott claimed that he used the rest of the concrete to pave his driveway. And this is really where the point of contention is for this piece of evidence. A witness for the prosecution testified that the concrete in the driveway did not match the material used for the anchor. But a witness for the defense testified that they were a match. I believe Scott's one of Scott's lawyers even said, like,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
oh it's it is a match but there was gravel on the driveway and it got mixed in and so it's hard to determine but conflicting and again why it's it's contested a little bit
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Please do, because I have not come up with anything for my two Hot Takes people. I'm like, I go back and forth. I'm like, the Hot Takians? Hot Takians. What are we over there, you guys? Yeah, what would that be?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So the prosecution said that Scott definitely made four anchors. And because that they were missing, these anchors could have been used to tie down Lacey's body to on her wrists and to on her ankle. Got it. And now this is where if you turn to Reddit a little bit and get into the subreddit for this case that you will see a lot of people question, like, how did the hair get in the pliers?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And a lot of people speculate that when Scott was attaching these anchors to Lacey, he might have actually put one of these cement anchors around her neck. And as he was twisting whatever wire or material he used to attach it, that is how the hair then got twisted up in these pliers.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So let's just say there were five anchors in total. Why would you need that many for a quick fishing trip? What are the chances that multiple anchors would go missing? Anchors are, you know, made with a specific purpose. If you're going to DIY these things, you're making them to use fishing again and again to keep your boat in place when you're casting out your line.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And once you're done, you reel it back in. But something investigators noted here is there was no rope found on Scott's boat.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
well also because yeah you don't one you don't leave anchors down there and then just like boat away but also they have to be attached to your boat somehow to hold it in place right and there was actually an expert witness that took the stand and implied that the one anchor that was found on scott's boat wouldn't have even been enough to hold that boat in place in that bay with the currents and right everything i mean it's the ocean and i remember reading that the anchors were about eight
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I was very surprised when I saw the picture.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. So what are we going to be here?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I went wedding dress shopping recently oh my gosh it was a lot yeah I was very overwhelmed you went to like a really nice place right yeah I went to Kleinfeld's um I was like a fan of say yes to the dress but like I didn't know how intense it was going to be and it was still an enjoyable experience but like you definitely feel the pressure there yeah did you feel pressured to pick something while you were there I might have been peer pressured into a dress
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
You have a professional, a trained diver knowing exactly where an item he lost is and he couldn't find it right away. Like it took four different subsequent dives to go back and get it. Then you're not going to find those little anchors. No. And like being from Minnesota and spending a lot of time out on the lake. I've dropped cell phones.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I've dropped sunglasses and they sunglasses go off my face right in front of me. I see them sift down through the water. I know where they land. Yeah, I can't find them. They're gone. They're gone. Yeah, absolutely. So it does make sense that despite having this device and technology that he wouldn't be able to find these anchors.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And again, in my mind, as I said, like leave no trace. Why would Scott want to make anchors again and again and again? You make your own anchors to save money and DIY them.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But on that initial seized computer that they found, the browser history also showed someone conducting searches on December 8th for boat ramps on the Pacific Ocean and then examining nautical charts, currents and maps for the Berkeley Marina site. And San Francisco Bay, including the area around Brooks Island.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
If we're looking at what Scott even said on Christmas Eve, going fishing was a game time decision. Right. He said it was a last minute. The weather was too bad for golf. Seemingly easy pastime. You're going to go out on the ocean. Yeah. But he was searching these things back on December 8th.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
He sure was. So there were a bunch of different visits to fishing-related websites, and he was looking up sturgeon and striped bass. And based on what Scott said, he said he was trolling, using bait dragged behind the boat to catch these fish, and he was using lures.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Well, they actually had a witness take the stand of a fishing expert and said that the time of day would be wrong for that type of those types of fish. Yeah. The area was wrong. And you can't even troll for that kind of fish. It's like against the fishing rules.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
He was researching. He seemingly should have known. But I mean, from the lures being wrong, those sturgeon like live bait, it just it didn't add up based on expert testimony.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Not very long and something that is literally just coming to my mind now. There's no mention that he ever caught a fish. No, I don't.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Which the expert did say wrong time. Yeah. I believe the expert said if he wanted to catch a fish, he should have been coming back. from the marina at around 10, not going there at 10. It just didn't make sense. And especially for someone that was familiar with boats and fishing. Yeah. It just was not adding up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I went down the rabbit hole on this section specifically. And this is something that comes up quite a bit in court documents. First and foremost, my question was, how is this legal? It was. Investigators went by the book. They got a warrant to do this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And it did allow police to place surveillance outside the Petersons' home and add these GPS tracking devices to Scott's vehicles, which included a series of cars and trucks that he rented for a few days at a time because his truck had been impounded.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yes. So we do have data that places Scott at the marina at least three different times in rented vehicles. First, on January 5th, he drove there in a gray Subaru, spent just five to ten minutes there. Then on January 6th, he returned to the marina in a red Honda, again, only spending a few minutes there. And on January 9th, he drove there in a white pickup truck.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Somewhere around this time, police had realized that Scott figured it out. Their cover was blown. So they seized these GPS trackers. But he did go back in Lacey's Land Rover. And that vehicle, because of the technology it had, they were able to get the data from the manufacturer.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Honestly, I went to like Anthropologie after and their dresses are like just beautiful and affordable and it's fine. It'll be a journey. You guys will see it when the day does come.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And it placed Scott there again. And he went back a fifth time in a Dodge pickup truck.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Didn't tow a boat up. Wasn't trying to go fishing again. And again, you guys, we have to think about the distance that he was driving. Five hours round trip. For just a few minutes. So based on the data that investigators were able to gather, it was looking really suspicious. And in 2004, when Scott was on trial, this GPS technology had not been used in California's court system yet.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But I will say prosecutors did really establish its reliability and proved that this GPS data wasn't just random tower pings or, you know, it added up. It was factual evidence. And they did the legwork before this was admitted into the case.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. And I will say the judge did a seemingly fair job. From my perspective, there was a lot of evidence that wasn't admitted into this trial. So yeah, it did seem like this was a reliable, valid source of information.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah, this GPS data kind of showed this obsession with returning to the marina, and it put him right at the location where Lacey and Connor's bodies were later discovered. Now, I've always heard that criminals go back to the scene of a crime, but I was curious about why this actually happened, so I did a little bit of research.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
There's a book called Profiling Violent Crimes, an Investigative Tool by Ronald M. Holmes and Stephen T. Holmes. And Chapter 5 digs into this in a lot more detail. But basically, there's a few reasons why people would go back to the scene of a crime. First, to relive the crime. Being in that location helps evoke memories and brings them back to that experience.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Next, to ensure there's no remaining evidence or that things haven't moved or been physically exposed. And finally, to interact with law enforcement. Some criminals derive satisfaction from
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. I mean, per some investigators reports, Scott was even saying, like, you're wasting time looking at the marina.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Exactly. Yeah. To me, it really seems like Scott wasn't this worried husband searching for his wife. It goes back to he knew where they were and he was making sure that they didn't surface.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So that brings us to where we are today. We are now two decades since his initial conviction. And to this day, Scott Peterson maintains his innocence. And there's an ongoing debate with Scott's legal team pushing for a new trial. Plus, the L.A. Innocence Project has even taken up the case for Scott and are trying to get him freed. Kaylin, can you talk a little bit more about the L.A.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Innocence Project, L.A.I.P., and how they came to get in contact with Scott? And this is different than the Innocence Project, right?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
don't don't feel bad if you have some boxes sitting there after a year of living in your place like me are you speaking from experience it's fine that's fine you know we're starting a new podcast i don't have time to unpack after a year no i know it's hard it really is it's it's the the packing is stressful the unpacking oh i'll pack all day just take forever i will pack all day yeah i need someone to help me i'd rather put it in the box than out of the box i don't know mentally why we do that but it is a thing
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And I'm really curious what evidence they're trying to include in this. What do they think they have that is going to prove he's innocent?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah, I will say this is something the subreddit has really picked apart. There's a post recently where someone went to the very same intersection near their home and took a picture of someone across walking their dog. It's really hard to make out details, identifying details. And they did live by a really popular park.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So there could have been other pregnant women walking their dogs around the same time. And something that's important to note here is during the initial trial, Scott's team didn't call any of these witnesses to testify. Right. Right. Something to note.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I mean, I wouldn't want to be so close to all the spectacle.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
If you look at videos, I mean, the lawn was covered.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
No one's going to see me over in this house.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And what's interesting about the van is a lot of people were speculating that it could have been linked to a cult. I believe there was interesting. Yeah, there was like some report that came out where a woman had reported that she had been assaulted and taken into a van. So there was some speculation that maybe it was tied to this cult. Strange.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But I didn't see much about it going further than that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Let's do it. Today we are opening up the case file for the murder of Lacey Peterson. But before we get into this case, let's talk a little bit about who Lacey was. Lacey Rocha was born on May 4th, 1975 in Modesto, California. During all of my research for this episode, it was clear that Lacey was just a spark of light.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
There's a lot of speculation, too, about why pawn jewelry. One account I saw, I think the jewelry that they did pawn around the 10th to the 14th was only worth like $250. And Scott had just bought a boat for thousands of dollars. In cash. In cash shortly before. So there was a lot of speculation about motive. Why were they doing this?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And I think something that I saw come up quite a bit is Scott had a lot of debt.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
yeah you were saying hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and it was from his business from the business which it was a fertilizer business of you know of a parent company i'm not sure the exact details of that but i think something important to note here too is that there was a 250 000 life insurance policy on lacy
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And some people say this was taken out when they found out she was pregnant, but it was actually about a year and a half before that's the date we have on the policy. So I want to be clear about that. But one part of this that I do really want to touch on before we wrap things up is a part of this case that keeps coming back. And Scott really uses as his I'm innocent piece of evidence.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I actually found a really great article from SFGate where some of her friends were interviewed, and I love this quote from them. Quote, she didn't care what you thought of her. She was just happy to be where she is and who she is. Just so sure of herself. I love that. Just a happy-go-lucky gal. In 1994, Lacey met a fellow student named Scott Peterson at a party in San Luis Obispo, California.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
comes up a lot and it's a piece of evidence that the trial judge actually did not admit in evidence it is a reenactment that scott's defense team made where they took a boat out they went out into the bay same bay and tried to dump a 150 pound dummy off the side of this boat However, this boat was not the same boat as Scott's. The motor was in different place.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
The seats were higher and in different spots. There was plywood planking over some of the openings where the judge was like, I'm not sure if there's something in there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
The judge on that initial trial pointed out that the defense team member who was in the reenactment video wore a weight belt. He was standing on a portion of the boat that altered the center of gravity. And it appeared the boat was taking on water even before he went to put this dummy overboard.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But it's not the same boat. It's not the same boat. And there's other podcasts and other things I've listened to that they bring up this boat as this big piece of evidence as to why maybe Scott didn't do this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
He would have fallen in. The boat would have capsized. However, this trial judge says to the defense team, like, basically, hey, not trying to tell you how to how to do your your case here, guys, but this is not the same boat. I'm not admitting this, but I will let you use Scott's boat. You can have it from evidence, take it back out into the bay, find similar conditions, and replicate it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
They passed. They never brought it up again.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
They brought it up. In Scott's appeal, they basically said that one of the judge's conditions, which was having a member of the prosecution present, violated his rights or it wouldn't make it fair. And that's where they're mentioning it again. Yeah. Current day. But.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
him and his team were given the opportunity to reenact it with the boat with similar conditions to show that it was physically impossible without a question you are innocent because you could not have done this yeah and they passed you know they passed and i don't know why if if i was trying to prove my innocence and i said i didn't do that and it's impossible i
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I would have taken that boat from evidence. But they didn't. They ended up passing. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
I know. I'm going to be honest, too. I think it's probably pretty clear at this point to tell where I'm at in this case. I do think Scott did it. After reading... the 103-page Supreme Court appeal document and their decision. I think it's, to me, it feels pretty indisputable. But before I got into this case, I honestly didn't know. I kind of leaned towards Scott being innocent.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But nothing came of that initial meeting until she ran into him again at a restaurant where he worked as a waiter. She was so smitten with him, and in a bold move, Lacey actually gave Scott her phone number.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It was the pliers for me. Yeah. Finding her hair wrapped up in the pliers. I find it really hard to think it's from any other reason but using those as a way to tie weights to her. I think by his own admission and him saying like she was never on the boat.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
That kind of sealed it for me. But what was it for you?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah. I want to see it all. I mean, where are the holes for you guys in this case? Are there, are there clues we didn't touch on that? You're like, that's what convinced me. Definitely. I really, really want to see it. And yeah, It's a tough one, but it's hard to argue with all of this put together. Yeah, I agree.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It does. It compounds. And you pull one thing out, it might not add up. But again, when you put all of this together and all of the behavior he exhibited after... Absolutely. But to wrap us up, Lacey's story is one of unimaginable loss, but her legacy is one of undeniable impact. There's a law that was passed by the U.S.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Congress called the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, also known as Lacey and Connors Law. This law recognizes any unborn child as a separate legal victim if they're injured or killed during the commission of certain federal violent crimes, even in instances where the perpetrator may not know the woman was pregnant.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
There's actually an article I found where Lacey's mom, Sharon, recalled her calling her after this meeting and saying she's met the man she's going to marry. And her mom asked if they had even gone out yet. And Lacey replied, not yet, but we will. Like she just she knew she had a feeling she wanted what she wanted and she was going to make it happen.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Everything we read about Lacey in preparation for this episode shows that she was this deeply caring person who, without a doubt, would have made an amazing mother. And to me, it really shows what a remarkable person she was, because even after her death, Lacey was not only able to advocate for her own child, but for so many others.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And that's something that will continue to matter long after headlines fade. One thing that is really important for us to mention before we close this case file is that according to a 2022 Harvard study, the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the U.S. is homicide. There are way, way too many women out there who share Lacey's fate.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
So if you are going through something similar, please know that there are resources available and we are going to make sure that they are linked in the show notes for this episode.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
That is all we have for this episode of Clues. We really hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us. And we're going to open another case file next week. And we want to hear from you. As we said, your thoughts, your theories. Did you dive down the Reddit rabbit hole like I did? We want to hear it all. Your feedback is crucial.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
We want to make sure we are doing these cases justice and making a show that you guys enjoy. It's really what's going to make this community so special.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered. Join our CrimeHouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
For their first date, Scott took Lacey on a deep sea fishing trip. But apparently things didn't go as planned because Lacey ended up getting seasick. Eventually, Scott proposed in December of 1996 and they got married in 1997. Lacey was an absolutely gorgeous bride.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
In 2000, they moved 200 miles north to Modesto, California, so that they could be closer to Lacey's family and really start building their life together. Lacey loved being a wife. She loved watching Martha Stewart, cooking, and everything that really went into being a homemaker. But what she really wanted was to be a mother. By some accounts, Scott did not want to be a father.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Or at the very least, it seemed like he couldn't really make up his mind and went back and forth quite a bit. But in May 2002, Lacey got pregnant. And by that point, Scott was seemingly getting on board. He was attending Lamaze classes with her, going to doctor's appointments, all of the things you would expect a loving, supportive partner to do.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Hi, welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But in late 2002, when Lacey was around eight months pregnant, things took a dark turn.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Yeah, and it wasn't like he just told one person he went and played golf. He actually told four different people that he played golf that day. But his alibi quickly shifted.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And just so everyone is aware, and again, look at social media if you're more of a visual person, or YouTube for the picture, Berkeley is over 80 miles away from Modesto. And traffic patterns may have changed, maybe highways, roadways even changed.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
But when I plugged the two locations into Google Maps and searched what traffic would look like on Christmas Eve of this year, it shows that the drive is around two and a half hours. We're talking about a five-hour round trip. And given that he pulled the parking ticket at 12.54 p.m. and then left a voicemail for Lacey at 2.15 saying he was headed back, it doesn't give you a lot of time to fish.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And we also have to consider he was pulling his boat behind his vehicle. And from my experience hauling, you know, with a trailer, you do even have to drive a little more cautious, a little slower. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'll be diving into the theories and pulling out the threads of these cases that seemingly add up or don't.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Not long, especially considering Scott was by himself. Yeah, right. Like it usually is so much nicer if you're working with another person as you're the one backing the boat down the launch and someone then catches it. But he was doing all of this by himself, too, which really adds to the complexity of this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It is so interesting to me how it went that fast. Like, he gets home, washes his clothes, which I don't know about you, but I find that kind of weird. You get home and right away you're just washing one outfit.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Unless it was really grimy from the boat, but... No, and it didn't seem like he started calling his mother-in-law right away. You know, he walked in to his gate, saw that his dog was loose, running around with a leash on, but didn't start getting worried initially.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
Ate some food. Ate some food. Really blase, chill. Yeah. No, no, no worries. But it is interesting that on that phone call, he goes to Lacey is missing. It's not immediately.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
And this is where I need to interrupt you a little bit. Yeah. So remember how earlier it was mentioned that on December 14th, just 10 days before Lacey's disappearance, that she had gone to a Christmas party without Scott? He was on a business trip. He couldn't make it. Well, it turns out that Scott did go to a Christmas party that night on the 14th, but it wasn't with Lacey.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Laci Peterson
It was actually with a woman named Amber Fry, who also happened to be Scott's mistress. And not only did Amber have no idea that Scott was married at the time of Lacey's disappearance, He also had allegedly told Amber that his wife was dead. From an article I found, quote, And during this time, too, Scott,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
One of this week's partners is Quince. Temperatures are rising. It's getting hot here in L.A. and my summer wardrobe is slacking.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
You've got your cute sweater from Quince on, so you're not ready for this summer either, but I did get a new dress from Quince, and I love it. It's this really lightweight, breathable material. I know it's going to keep me cool, and I feel great in it. I feel like that is the hardest part about clothes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
You want to feel good, look good, and with Quince, you get that while being responsible for your budget, too.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Absolutely. These are staple pieces for your wardrobe that, as you said, will last for years to come. And my favorite part, Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. I've put it to the test. Quince always comes out less, but the quality is amazing. So if you want to try it for yourself, treat your closet to a little summer glow up with Quince.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Go to quince.com slash clues for free shipping on your order. and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash clues to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash clues.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
For months, it was like this family just vanished into thin air. But when pieces finally started to reveal themselves, the story only got stranger. Stay with us.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And this is a good time to get into Donald a bit more. Yeah. Yeah. Because this is when Detective Graven starts looking at Donald's employment files. He sees that he did work at this department store several times over the past decade. First, when he was a stock boy in 1948, but he quit three months after to join the Navy. Then he worked as a stock boy from January to June 1950, but quit again.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Then he was rehired as a stock boy and window trimmer in April 1954, and that lasted until September 1955. But the reason this time is because the store actually fired him for stealing over $2,000 in merchandise.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And what's also a lot is one of the items that Donald was accused of stealing is a .38 caliber Colt Commander pistol.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And when Donald was arrested in 1955 because of this, he said it was because he was having a hard time at home because his parents didn't approve of his sexuality. But despite his parents' disapproval, they did help him get out of trouble with the store. It was actually Ken that came in and paid the store back for all of Donald's stolen goods. And this is when Donald was released.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
We were just talking about this before we hit record, but I am in the thick of wedding planning. I think last we checked in, I was just trying on dresses, and I did find one, so I'm locked in there. Congrats. But now I'm like, okay, I'm six months out, and I'm trying to figure out flowers and tent rental, and for all my friends out there that have gotten married... How did you do this?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And his family really wanted him to go to Trinity Religious College in Connecticut at this time. They were hoping it would really reform Donald, but instead Donald ended up going to New York City.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. So let's jump in to after the family disappears. Detective Graven remained interested in Donald as a suspect. Something of note is that Donald decided not to come home to Portland to aid in the search for his family. Authorities only were able to interview him over the phone, and he wouldn't return to Portland for months. And granted, he's in the Navy. Maybe he wasn't able to get leave.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But I still find that a little odd. Like, your whole entire family vanishes. I at least think the United States Navy would have been a little accommodating to send you home.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I know. And the fact that he wasn't stationed abroad, he was in New York, maybe on base. It was just something I found in this case that was a little unusual. Almost that level of detachment. Totally. Everyone deals differently, but to not come home for
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
You have Donald, and then he happens to be connected to the two people seen in the cafe that left shortly after. And then the family was spotted, pulled over on the side of the road, talking to two people.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
We might get lost in the yarn today. I don't know. We will see.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. And I'm not sure if it was your episode or where I saw it, but I think the person that he carjacked, wasn't it like a sheriff or something?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I'm like, I'm ready to elope. I got like a quote on flowers and like a $70,000 tent rental.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And this is when he noticed those tracks. It looked like a car had come to the very edge of a steep cliff and just gone off. And of course, he did report these tire tracks to authorities, but the officer thought it was an irrelevant tip because the Martins wouldn't have come to that area for Christmas greenery.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So Bain contacted a sheriff in Portland, but he also dismissed this potential evidence as not being from the right location.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
That to me is wild. And I think we're going to have something like this every episode. I need like a little scientist to just like phone a friend, scientist button.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Because for paint chips to be found, I started going down. I'm like, okay, physics. How fast was this car moving? If it would have been moving really fast, wouldn't it have just flown off and there wouldn't be any chips on the rocks? Was it rolled off? Was it just at idle and it slowly went? Did they put a brick on the pedal?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I'm just like, that's where we need our... phone a scientist button.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But I mean, I looked at aerial pictures of this area and granted the roads may have changed since 58, but it definitely does not look like a normal area to just go off the road.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And this is what Bain thought too. Which is why, after being dismissed, he contacted reporters, and the Oregon Journal mentioned his theory in a short article that ran on January 2nd. Quote, Don Bain reported earlier this week seeing a tire track on grass and a tire marked rocks about five miles east of Cascade Locks.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Bain said the river at this point is almost 85 feet deep and a car could have plunged over a 20-foot cliff at this juncture. End quote. And then they paraphrase him and say, I really feel this is where they are going to find the Martin car, said Bain. End quote. The author of Echo of Distant Water notes that the Oregon Journal article does contain a few errors.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Bain had actually seen paint on the rocks, not tire tracks, and the place in the Dales was more like 45 miles from Cascade Locks, not 5. After this article, however... authorities do come back and accept these tire tracks as evidence. So now that it's evidence, people do start to wonder if the family accidentally backed off the cliff, plunging into water.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Detective Graven at this point actually had a plaster cast made of the tracks, and through this determined that the tread of the marks matched the type of tires that the Martins' car actually had on it. There were also bits of cream-colored paint on the rocks near these tire tracks. which was the same color as the Martins' cream and red Ford station wagon.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And this is a part of this case, and with this clue, that really blew my mind. The paint chips were actually tested by the FBI, and they matched the car's make and model. And again, 1958, we hadn't been to the moon yet. We're getting close to going there, but like... The paint chips being tested, I'm really impressed at that aspect.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, really impressed with that. And because of this, Detective Graven actually believed that the car went into the water at this spot by the cliff. So I went and looked at the weather. There was no heavy fog, snow, or rain on this day. And in the weeks after, there was a lot of light rain, but luckily no snow.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But checking the weather also made me think like, okay, how could you accidentally go off a cliff if you're driving? Regardless of the spot being hard to get to. There was no fog. There was no sleet. There was no snow. On that day in December... In that general location, there was no precipitation.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
It doesn't make sense that they would accidentally go off a road. And again, I went further. I was looking up headlights on this car. I'm like, maybe, you know, this 1954... Station wagon, the headlights didn't go as far with light range.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
No. And even for a 1954 Ford, the lights were really they weren't that bad. Like the visibility and the range you got from them was pretty good. But just something to note. I mean. No seatbelts in the car, but other safety mechanisms. Yeah, but I do believe the family actually added their own seatbelts in. Yeah, because you used to have to. They didn't have seatbelts in cars back then.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
they would be driving erratically and super fast. It just, it was a little surprising for me.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. And I literally I know this case. I just got chills with that. I'm like, what? Again, like, what are the odds? Small world, but it's hard to think it's just a coincidence.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
That's what I thought was a little fishy. What about that alibi in L.A.?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, this is the clue that really has my head spinning. In January 1959, a man named Theodore Hellyer was in an area just west of Cascade Locks when he saw a silverish glimmer coming from underneath a rock. He went to go see what it was, and he actually found a gun. But it wasn't just any gun. This gun was a .38 caliber Colt Commander, serial number 15861LW.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
No. So if anyone out there has tips, please send them my way because I'm probably at home as you listen to this crying. How stressful it is. But what's going on with you?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And I will say, like, the Reddit rabbit hole people are like, how did they have the serial number on guns? It wasn't mandated at that time. But certain brands did do it. Interesting. So it wasn't impossible that a gun would have a serial number on it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And when he found this gun, he also noticed there was dried blood on the handle and that the butt of the gun was damaged, like it had been used to maybe bludgeon something.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And of the nine chambers, there was only one fired shell casing. And Kaylin, I know you had a point in your Heart Start Pounding episode where you talked about how the shell was still in the chamber. Yeah. And why that could have happened.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So I thought that was really interesting on your episode. So after discovering this gun, Hellyer gave it to the sheriff, who, for some unknown reason, did not accept the gun as evidence. Get this. He actually cleaned the gun off. Cleaned it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I mean, I, again, went down the rabbit hole on this case probably too hard. Like, I was like, did they know DNA existed at this time? And yes, they did. They knew of its existence, but it hadn't been yet used in crime cases. Right, yeah. So... I get, you know, it might not have been thought to like, oh, preserve this blood. We can test it later. But they knew of DNA at least.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And they didn't do that. Yeah. They did nothing. They did nothing with this gun. And something that I think is also really interesting is Detective Graven's grandson, Greg Graven, who is actually the current chief of police in Yamhill, Oregon. He actually tells reporters for the KOIN 6 News podcast.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
He says, quote, there are protocols that are required to take place even back then regarding the finding of a firearm. And those protocols were not met.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I'm surprising. But Detective Graven does learn about the gun during his investigation in early 1959. And this is when he really starts putting the pieces together and going back to what he learned about Donald Martin. and puts it together that the gun he stole from Meyer and Frank's store was also a .38 caliber handgun.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
When he found the serial number for that stolen handgun, 15861LW, he realized it was identical to the one found along the highway.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I think this is something that is going to come up, you know, from time to time in these cases that we cover. But this is something that feels a little botched to me. And by botched, I mean carried out badly or carelessly. It just feels like this was a piece of evidence that really could have helped this case back then. And it just wasn't handled as it should have been.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Let me know your thoughts on this. Like, is this the botched piece of this case for you? Maybe it's the tire tracks, actually. But I think this is a point in all of our episodes that maybe listeners could help chime in with. And maybe we each pick a piece that we feel was botched when it applies.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, at least he put it back together. But I mean, they gave the gun back. I know.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. And a few more things that I want to talk about that really tie into this clue. In Graven's report, he also says bonfire was discovered near where the gun was found. This makes him wonder if other evidence had been destroyed during that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And based on Graven's notebooks, which were reviewed by the author of Echo of Distant Water, Graven confronted Donald about the gun during a call in mid-December 1958. Donald said the following, quote, New York police told me about that, the gun, being found. I have no knowledge of it. Wayne had a buddy who worked in sporting goods. Wayne liked guns. I didn't. I just like nice things, like a girl.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I like nice things to make my apartment pretty." So basically, Donald didn't have much to say about the gun. He suggests that his friend Wayne might have had it. And nothing seems to come from Graven's investigation of Wayne. But there is more info on him in the book if you want it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
The rumors and the speculation really, really swirl around this case and the gun. And Wayne was into sporting goods and Wayne liked guns.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I'm curious what all of you out there listening think about that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
One comment I found that really started to change my thoughts on this case is a lot of people theorized that Donald actually left the gun in Oregon when he moved to New York and that maybe the family kept it in the car for safety. So let's just say you have a family leaving a restaurant, going down the highway, car speeds up behind them, flashing lights, refusing to pass.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Let's do it. I was up until two in the morning going over things for this case. I fell down the rabbit hole and bumped my head quite a few times along the journey. So I'm really excited to dive into this one.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Martin family thinks, oh, something might be wrong. Let me pull over. Two men outside the car. We know gun was damaged on the butt. Maybe there was a struggle over it because one of the casings broke.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
This is the theory that I tossed and turned over last night.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But here's where I would love to hear you guys chime in with your theories. I mean, there's a lot in the rumor mill here and a lot of speculation, so please comment what you think.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So the Martin family consisted of six people. We have the dad, Kenneth, otherwise kind of referred to as Ken. Ken Martin, age 54. He was born in 1904. He worked at Eccles Electric Home Service. That'll come into play. You'll hear it throughout this case. So important to note that. But Ken really loved Christmas. This whole family did. But Ken would act as Santa Claus for the neighborhood kids.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, based on our map and where they're finding these bodies, it does seem likely. And I know in this case, the reason that they believe the bodies actually surfaced is because a rig or some sort of boat actually dropped anchor and it got stuck somewhere. And that dislodged or maybe opened a door, broke a window. And that's maybe how the bodies got to the surface.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But the discoveries of these girls does lead us to our fourth and final clue, the autopsies of Susan and Virginia Martin. So Susan's cause of death was determined to be drowning. The death occurred no more than two hours after she had eaten. I assume the contents of her stomach were similar to that of Virginia's, which is what the book Echo of Distant Water says.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
The condition of her body suggested it had been held down in cold, deep water for a considerable length of time. before eventually coming to the surface and floating down the river. This is true of Virginia's two. Virginia's cause of death was also determined to be drowning. There was no evidence of any injury or disease.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
The body was fairly well-preserved, suggesting it hadn't been floating on the surface of the water for very long, and as mentioned, she had eaten prior to her death. Her stomach contained hamburger, potatoes, and citrus fruit, and this would corroborate with the details that the waitress gave. Now, this is a point I think is interesting and where there's some mixed information here.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
In some reports about the autopsy, it says that she had a hole in the side of her head. It was something that the deputy sheriff actually told a journalist. He was the person who photographed and fingerprinted both girls. And he said in a 1999 interview, quote, both girls had holes in their skulls, identical holes above and behind their right ears.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I thought they were either from a gunshot or a blow. Wow. If this is true, though, it's not clear why it was omitted from the autopsy. And again, like, there's some discrepancy here because in the KOIN 6 News podcast, they have a quote, an autopsy technician who took pictures of the bodies thought both girls had bullet holes in their skulls. The medical examiner ruled otherwise.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There was even a picture of the autopsy that the author of Echo of Distant Water saw of but it was too small and blurry to see whether or not Virginia's had actually had a hole in it. And because both remains were eventually cremated, there's no way to check on it now.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And he even made these like wooden candy cane decorations for his yard, the neighbor's front yards. And this is what actually got the neighborhood street to be referred to as Candy Cane Lane. Oh, that's cute. There's always like one of those people in every neighborhood.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
You don't show up for months. Yeah. There's finally a service and you don't make it there. Like, yeah, it's very odd. But one photo I did see of Donald was a picture of him holding a photo of his family. Yeah. And looking at it. Sadly glancing at it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And again, the context of, you know, his sexuality and maybe disapproval from parents. Right. Maybe he was no contact. We you know, there's a lot of there's a lot a lot there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. And again, this is where I find Donald's behavior so puzzling. I think regardless of maybe being strained and distant from your family, wouldn't you at least collect the remains and have them buried or, you know, just ensure that they had a resting place?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I agree. And, you know, maybe money was a concern and why he didn't. But I know you're going to get into this right now. So let's talk about the estate.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
adorable and then there's the mom Barbara Jean Martin she was 48 she was born in 1910 the pair got married on the 28th of November in 1929 Barbara loved Christmas too she sent out the family holiday cards One of her hobbies, though, that I thought was so, so cool is Barbara loved to enter sweepstakes, but adorable family.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
To me, it doesn't look like an accident. Again, I need some scientists or physics experts to chime in on speed of the car and how it got over the cliff. But it is interesting that if he was involved, he would, you know, say that and say, I don't think it was an accident. It must have been foul play. You know, why blow your spot? Yeah, yeah, right.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So that, again, is where I go back to the two cons.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. I think it's clear that he had some level of... I don't know, maybe disdain is the right word for his parents, if not the whole family. I do find it interesting that the detective, though, did cross out his name. He was captivated by this case. It was the one that haunted him, you know, maybe the one that was getting away or unsolvable.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And so for someone who knew every detail, who was so close to it, he did cross it out. So I do, it does feel like he got to a point that he even thought it's not him. Let's say Donald did do this, or maybe he enlisted Roy Light and Lester Price to help him take out his family. This did all happen again, 1958. It's not like Donald had Find My iPhone enabled. He couldn't track his parents.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I even saw on one thread on Reddit that long distance phone calls at that time could have been like $100 for just three minutes. Yeah, wow. So how does he even find out this plan, this Sunday trip to go find greenery?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I don't know. It's just something that... It's a hole in this one.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
They ended up moving to the home that they last lived in in 1932, and they referred to it as the Martin Manor. They had four children, the oldest being Donald Kenneth Martin. He was 28 at the time of the Martin family's disappearance, and he was currently living in New York. A little bit about Donald is he served in the Navy, took art courses at night at Hunter College.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I know there are some sources that mention a car, a taxi, waiting outside the family home for about an hour. Yeah. It might have been your episode.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, this is a point I was also kind of curious about because he was in the Navy. You know, maybe he's on base, maybe phone calls, no matter if they're long distance or not, maybe it's free. But the inheritance in the estate is obviously talked about for motive reasons.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
quite a bit and motive is kind of everything in these cases like what is the reason behind it but i saw in one source that he actually didn't get his estate for a couple years after the disappearance yeah which granted he might not have known that at the time like in my head i don't know i you hear about things like probate but i wouldn't i don't know maybe the average bear doesn't know how long it takes so maybe that wasn't a part of his plan or he knew about it but ultimately
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There's no other developments in this case.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah, something I found really interesting, too, Mayo noted that there were actually other cars underwater in the area, too. Right. Which... Again, like, this whole case just feels like, what are the odds? Like, what are the odds?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
He taught scuba diving lessons and he used to work at a Portland department store. Just to note, too, in some of Multnomah County Detective Walter Graven's research during this case, it's discovered that Donald felt he was gay and his parents really disapproved of this. But none of this was made public at the time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Or was it a known dumping area? Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. It's like, I feel like there's certain stories you hear where a town has a bridge and there's so many guns that people find with magnets in the water below. Yeah. You know, some... places some towns have those areas that are just you go there to be discreet or get away with things right you know could it have been one of those areas
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I feel like we're going to have a lot of takes, a lot of comments, and I want to see them all. I'm not sold on one thing or another. But as of right now, I'm in the boat that Donald did not do it. Wow. You and Archer Mayo. I really do think...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
that there was a struggle and I do think that the two you know ex-cons are connected especially given that one went on to have a carjacking you know similar yeah feel to it no and I forget who it was that mentioned that Ken might have had photography equipment in the car and so maybe it was something where like one of the ex-cons saw that there was valuable equipment in the car yeah followed them
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There was a struggle. Yeah. Gun went off. Ken got killed. Yeah. We can't have murder on our hands. We can't have witnesses. Yeah. Let's drive this family off the cliff. I mean... There's a few theories that I saw that... And this is dark. This is really dark. Family annihilator theories. That Ken did it? That Ken did it. Wow.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But again, given the witnesses and the weird circumstances, I don't know. It is interesting. Maybe he threw the gun out the window as he was driving and then the car went in the river. But I at least feel... Somewhat good saying. I don't think Donald did it. I know his behavior is so odd and not showing up to help Serge, not coming back for the funerals, not picking up the remains.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There are so many things that have you really side-eyeing him, but I think that really could just be a strained relationship with the family. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Hi, welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And that is interesting. And given Wayne being involved with the family and over at their house and close and, you know, maybe he brought it over and maybe Ken caught Wayne and said, hey, you're too young for a gun. I'm keeping it. I'm not sure, but it is interesting. I just don't think it was Donald. Could it have been Wayne? Could it have been the Barbie pregnancy conspiracy of this? Maybe.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But I feel like given the fact that people were lying for Lester and Roy, oh, they were in LA. Meanwhile, they were at brothels. Were they able to afford the brothels because of money that they got from the Martins?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I mean, yeah, there's a lot you can we could speculate till the cows come home.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
But let's talk about the other children. And before we really dive into the Martin girls, I do want to note that there's a lot of different ages depending on what source you go through. So sometimes they're 14, 12, and 10, sometimes 14, 13, 11. We're going to be using what the Associated Press and the New York Times used for age. the sake of today.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Yeah. Which. Hey, the man spent seven years of his life. I know he deserves to write a book about it. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
It is. The whole thing is really, really peculiar. It's a head scratcher. Where do you land? Where do you where do you finally come on this one?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
In the glove box and so – If you're enlisting in the Navy, you're going off to basic, you're going off and you're living on base. You don't just take your gun with you.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I'm really excited to see all of your comments on this one. Yeah. Really. This is a tough one. And I think, you know, given 1958, the evidence was so different back then. Technology and everything.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
I think so, too. So it's really tough. And I think even if they did go in accidentally, I don't think there was any chance the family would have gotten out given how heavy the car was, how quickly it probably submerged. So this is my one little PSA to everyone out there. Please have on your side door one of those window breakers. Yes. Like, if you ever end up in water...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
The pressure from the water. It's hard to open a door or roll down a window. Yeah. So please have like a little safety kit in your car of like a seatbelt window. It's like a seatbelt rip and a window breaker combo.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
Just have that. I mean they're so cheap to get.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
You can get them. From the guy who makes the TikTok videos going out and finding these victims and helping these families get closure, he actually sells one. Oh, my gosh. Just get one for your car. I think that's my bottom line today.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
We really hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us. And we're going to be back next week opening a new case file. And as always, we want to hear from you guys. Tell us your theories on this one. Let us know what part you think is botched. Maybe other theories you came across while diving down the Reddit rabbit hole. And any feedback you have. It's what makes this community so special.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So we have the eldest daughter, Barbara Martin, also called Barbie, age 14. Then we have the middle daughter, Virginia Martin, called Jenna, age 13. And then we have Susan Margaret Martin, called Susie, age 11.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There was a lot of speculation on that on Reddit.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
People went so far as to be like, was he actually their kid? like why the age gap interesting so um as far as we know and what we saw in the sources like yes all biologically their children right which doesn't change much for me anyways totally but and having an age gap like that was actually pretty common at the time so really that's really interesting
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And I do just want to note, like, we're talking a lot about contacts and year. This case took place in 1958. Yes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And I don't know about you guys listening or watching, but I'm a visual person. So you're going to want to see this map. Be sure to check it out because I really think it does help kind of like correlate this story for us.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
So at the end of December 1958, a waitress named Clara York came forward and said that she waited on the family late Sunday afternoon, December 7th, before they disappeared. She said that they arrived from the east in their station wagon, ate hamburgers, fries, and dessert, and left after an hour, headed west towards Portland. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And Kaylin, I know you mentioned this on your episode of Heart Starts Pounding, but the reason why she remembered things so clearly is because she really didn't have any customers that day. Like, the Martin family was... kind of all she had.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
There were, however, two men eating at this restaurant at the same time as the Martin family. And Clara said that they left shortly after the family did and headed in the same direction. In one news clipping, Clara puts the time of their departure around 2 p.m. In another, it says 5.30 p.m. And in another, she says it was around 4.15 at dusk.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'll be diving into the theories and pulling out the threads of these cases that may or may not add up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And the fact there's three different times. Yeah. A little confusing. Later, when Detective Graven interviews the staff at Paradise Snack Bar, the owner, Charles Maynard Cody, tells him that the two men in the restaurant the same day were ex-cons, Lester Price and Roy Light. They were dining in the restaurant when the Martins were there and left around the same time, between 4.15 and 4.30. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
And I want you to remember those names because they are going to come back up a little later. But overall, this clue, the witness at the cafe, it's important for placing the family near Cascade Locks as their last known location.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MISSING: The Martin Family
He actually cleaned the gun off.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But the plane ended up circling for three and a half hours while they were scrambling to get the chutes, get the money, get everything before it finally landed.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And here at Crime House, we value your support. So please share your thoughts on social media. Please do it. We read all of them. And remember to rate, review, and follow clues to help others discover the show. And for bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, that's a good point, actually, because usually on those small flights, right, you don't fully fuel up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So when the plane finally landed, there were snipers in position watching this plane land. But Cooper seemed to know or at least sense that this was happening because he immediately told the flight attendants that they needed to shut all the windows. And before any passengers were allowed to deplane, Cooper instructed Tina to retrieve the money and the parachutes for him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And while Tina could have technically kept herself safe at that point, she decides to get back on the plane. Once she returned, the passengers of Flight 305 were released, along with two of the flight attendants, Alice and Florence.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
That is so funny. Like, oh, sorry. Like, you see the snipers in position. You're like, wait, I have to grab my, I left my phone. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
They did such a good job. My mom actually works inside of the airport because it's less stressful than being a flight attendant.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
She deals with all the people like she would have sold D.B. Cooper the ticket.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And she also would have been like, oh, you're asking about what the plane is like. I don't care. I want to go home. Like I'm not going to make a mental note of this. The second you leave, I'm forgetting. Straight over your head. You deal with so many people every day. You do. And like most people are in a bad mood at the airport. I worked inside of an airport and like just the people are horrible.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So you're not really making mental notes of everyone you come into contact with. And it's only getting worse, at least according to my mom. I know. We're getting a little more wild.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, because as the ground crew is refueling the plane and getting ready to take off again, Cooper mentioned that he wanted to depart with the aft staircase down. So like part of the plane fully open. And the pilot kind of tells him like, no, that's not possible. We can't do that. But Cooper was pretty adamant about this. So the pilot ends up reaching out to Boeing anyways.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And he learns from the engineers that while, yes, he was right, you can't take off with the staircase lowered. it can be lowered during flight. And so by all accounts, Cooper wasn't really happy with that solution, but he finally was like, that's fine and we can do it that way. Let's go, guys. So Cooper and the pilot talk about where they're going to fly next.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And Cooper says that he wants to go to Mexico City. It looks like this is over 2300 miles away and it would take around five and a half hours to get there. And that's really typical in today's air travel. Like we take five hour flights all the time. Yeah, easy. The airplane's tank wasn't big enough to get there. They just circled for three and a half hours.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
That was essentially as far as they could go. So crazy. They were going to have to refuel along the way if they're going to make it all the way to Mexico City. So the crew, they basically had a huddle up and they come up with a game plan and they're like, OK, we have to make a few stops. So the first one's going to be in Reno, Nevada, and we can refuel there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And Cooper, as this is happening, looks into the bag that they gave him full of cash. By all accounts, he's pretty happy with what he sees. So the pilot takes off again. They're heading to Reno. Cooper gets on the cabin phone once they're up in the air and he starts giving really strict instructions to the pilot. First, he says he wants the plane to fly at 10,000 feet. Really low.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
The cabin's not pressurized at 10,000 feet. He said he also wants the wing flaps to be at 15 degrees and no more than 200 knots, which is about 190 miles per hour or 300 kilometers per hour, which also, again, not even fast enough to take off. When you take off, you're going faster than that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Today, we're talking about D.D. Cooper, America's most stylish thief and its biggest unsolved mystery. Was he a criminal mastermind or was he just incredibly lucky? We'll break down the clues that have baffled the FBI for over 50 years right after a quick break.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
He had done a lot of research or he was a pilot himself because to know the exact angles that the wings have to be or he was familiar with hijacking planes. And but he had a lot of information on what to do.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So anyone could really go back there and deploy the stairs mid-flight. If you knew how to do it. Wow. Interesting. And so for what it's worth, the pilot didn't think that the plane could go as slow as Cooper was asking. Again, you go faster than that to take off. So Cooper ends up telling him, yes, it can.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I know you don't think this plane can go that slow, but I promise you it can do what I'm asking. And so the pilot, I guess, trusted him and decided to go as slow as they could. I mean, good pilot.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Wasn't that also up in Oregon? Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, you could just bring knives on planes back then.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. So he he like took apart one of the parachutes and was using the line. So just like destroyed one of the parachute ripping it to shreds, which in his mind, he's like, oh, I have four parachutes. But really, you have three because one of them is a dummy. I know. So this kind of also hints at the idea that he never planned on making someone else jump with him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So Morgan, like you mentioned earlier, this was really just him being super strategic about every single thing that he did this day. And according to some sources, Cooper and Tina go to the back of the plane and into the space where the stairs were lowered. And according to some other sources, Cooper and Tina went up to the cockpit before this. But regardless, at 7.42 p.m.,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
A light comes on in the cockpit and that alerts the pilot that the staircase door was opened. The crew called the phone in the rear of the plane. Cooper answered and they ask whether he needs any help. And he just says, no, no, hangs up. Crazy. 812, which is 30 minutes later, the crew feels the plane move. Cooper jumped. What was he doing back there for so long? Scoping it out?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Have you watched Bad Influence on Netflix yet? No. It's good. It's hard to say it's good. It's very interesting. It's like the number one documentary on Netflix right now. It's essentially a hype house for children that was operating in L.A. and it was run by this woman, Tiffany. She has this daughter, Piper. who is like a social media star.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Probably scoping it out. Probably seeing exactly where he wanted to land. But also, mind you, he was telling them to go to Reno. So they don't think he's going to jump that early, but he must have known this whole time that he was going to jump somewhere in between where they were in Reno.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But it also feels like it would have been strategic, right? No one is down there who can see someone jumping from a plane.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And it's worth mentioning here that even though he did not go back with them the crew does land safely and no one in this entire ordeal was hurt. But the FBI is there on the tarmac waiting for them. And once they land they get to work. They're like we have to figure out who this man was. We cannot let someone like this get away. And so they start gathering clues.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But yeah, so Tiffany was like managing all these other child influencers. The documentary interviews a lot of those kids. Yeah. It's really dark. It's just really dark. Oh, no. The amount of work they had to do. She's putting them in uncomfortable situations. And like the whole thing is really shining a light on like how there's no rules surrounding child influencers.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Next up we have parachutes, which he left two on the plane. Yeah, and for all of the research that he did on the airplane and the flight paths, he clearly didn't do all of the research on the parachutes because he used one of the best parachutes, like you said, to make the bag handle and he left the other one on the plane. So basically he takes a military parachute that they gave him
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And the dummy chute, which, again, had a giant X on it because the parachute inside was literally sewn shut.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So, yeah, he picks the worst chutes. And speaking of the parachutes, the FBI knew that there was a high probability that he was going to jump out of the plane. So they had fighter jets watching the plane as it was flying. But remember, Cooper had instructed the pilots to go no more than like 230 miles an hour. So the jets were going too fast.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
There was a helicopter following at one point, but that also had to go too fast. The plane was going way too slow. So by the time Cooper was getting ready to jump, there was nothing following the plane watching him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So, of course, they go to the area that they think he jumped in and they start searching immediately. But there is no sign of him, not even his parachute, nothing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Highly trained. I mean, we'll get into our theories later, but I think there's a chance that he just left the chute and ran and maybe they didn't find it. But I mean, again, 117 square miles. Yeah. A lot of woods out there. One little parachute somewhere. Yeah. The manhunt on the ground gets started and it is massive.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
There was said to be over a thousand police officers and military troops combing through the dark divide looking for him. And reportedly a local millionaire suspected that Cooper had actually dropped into Lake Merwin. So this guy rented a small submarine and tried to search mostly because he was looking for the ransom money. I don't think he really cared about finding Cooper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But they were also able to identify where they thought Cooper landed. And it was a spot near the Lewis River, which is around Ariel, Washington. There's no real leads on the ground. The area is just way too vast. And like we said earlier, there's no roads. It's not well maintained. It is really hard to search this area.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But it's an interesting watch if you have time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But of course, no DNA testing at the time. So even if they did have the hair, how are they going to tell?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, there's really only his name. He wrote Dan Cooper and then all the other handwriting samples are gone. So another thing that surprised me to learn was that the pilot and copilot never spoke to Cooper directly. Not even once. They didn't even have any helpful details to describe Cooper. They were in the front of the plane while all this was happening.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Kind of, you know, the flight attendants were mitigating the conversation. Yeah. And because the flight attendants kept everyone so calm and didn't lead them on into what was actually happening on the plane, it doesn't seem like there was a ton of attention on Cooper. I don't even think any of the people on the plane thought to turn around and look in the back to see what was going on.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So they maybe assumed he was just any other passenger or they just didn't get a good look at him because really none of the people on the plane had any more information for the authorities.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, absolutely. Like, do you ever try to go down and find, like, if you check a bag and you're looking at all the, like, where they have the bags come out and you're like, I could not tell you what flight I was on. Like, none of these people look familiar to me at all. None of them look familiar.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, you're just not really paying attention. Everyone just wants to get to their destination. Exactly. So the day after the hijacking was Thursday, November 25th, 1971, Thanksgiving Day. And there's immediately so much media coverage. I mean, think about it. Everyone's at home with their family. Like, it's a perfect time for...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Just like talking about this case, talking, chatting about it over Thanksgiving dinner. And again, no one was hurt. So the cultural conversation that starts happening about D.B. Cooper is largely positive. Most people are very impressed that this guy was able to pull off something this wild.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And one of the guys that was interviewed on the news said that Cooper was, quote, one of the slickest cats to ever walk the face of the earth. What a compliment. People just like talk better back then. What's like the equivalent now?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I mean, it's kind of ripe for cults, right? Because there's so much money to be made. There's usually someone at the top telling everyone what to do. And then it just, yeah, there's so much bad behavior that happens. But this one especially, I mean, everyone involved was like 11 years old at the time. So it's really heartbreaking. It's really interesting, though. I'll add it to my list.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
That does not have the same ring to it. People wrote songs about him. They sold t-shirts with his face on it. And this was all in tribute to the first man to get away with hijacking a U.S. plane. Basically, people felt like he stuck it to the man, which... I mean, we just came out of the 60s into the 70s. Like people were all about that. People did not trust the man.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I mean, we still see it now today. You definitely see it today. Absolutely. And again, this guy had the name of Dan Cooper when he bought his ticket. But at some point there was a reporter who maybe misheard law enforcement during a press conference. And the reporter called him D.B. Cooper instead of Dan Cooper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And unfortunately for everyone, that just made him seem even cooler because that was a way better. So the public really latched on to that. And overall, even though everyone's talking about this case, going home for Thanksgiving and talking to their parents about it, not a lot is happening. We have those clues that we found, but there's not much beyond that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And at some point, the FBI starts wondering if Cooper actually died during the jump. But again, there's not really any proof of that happening either. They haven't collected a body. But really, he's not turning up anywhere. And one agent in particular, this guy named Ralph Himmelsbach, he releases a book about the case in 1986.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And in it, Ralph, who was a pilot himself, he was actually in a helicopter that was trying to track Cooper. But he says that he believed D.B. Cooper, quote, probably hadn't even gotten his chute open and plunged to his death, winding up buried by the impact on the forest floor in the Cascade Mountains. Pretty pessimistic take there. I know. So really doesn't think he survived.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And one more thing to note here, actually, is that Ralph eventually retired in the early 1980s. And after that, he finally got the chance to meet with Captain William Scott, who was the pilot of Flight 305. And after they meet, Ralph starts to believe that Cooper's landing zone actually wasn't where they initially searched, but actually 40 miles east of the area they were searching.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Which is significant. That's a huge difference. That's a huge radius. But despite a massive manhunt, there's really no more movement in this case and no known potential suspects. But a few months later, would you believe another skyjacker struck? And the M-O sounded a lot like D.B. Cooper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So according to the FBI's website, on April 7th, 1972, United Airlines Flight 855, a Boeing 727, sound familiar, was traveling from Los Angeles, California to Newark, New Jersey with 85 passengers and a crew of six people. The flight had a layover in Denver and then took off just before 5 p.m.,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
About 20 minutes later, at 5.18 p.m., quote, a male passenger was observed in his seat holding a hand grenade. And this guy had boarded the plane using the name James Johnson. An off-duty pilot who happened to be on the plane checked out the situation.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
He was trying to not be suspicious, but it didn't work because the guy pulled a pistol on him and then handed him a sealed envelope with the words hijack instructions on it. And in that letter, the guy demanded $500,000 in cash and four parachutes. And he also ensured that all of the written notes were handed back to him. Sounds oddly familiar. There's a lot of similarities in this case. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Add it to my list. It's fast. It's like three episodes. They're like 45 minutes a piece. Netflix does a good documentary. They do. Yeah. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I mean, there could have been copycats, but it is very, very similar. So the crew decided to land in Grand Junction, Colorado, and the pilot told everyone on board that the aircraft was experiencing a, quote, minor mechanical problem. Again, why I don't trust anything that happens in the air. They are lying to us. That way the passengers wouldn't be worried about the abrupt landing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. No, seriously. It's amazing that they can do that. But even though the pilot wanted to land in Grand Junction, once they opened the envelope, there were really specific directions written inside. And it told them that they needed to land in San Francisco and park on runway 19 left. And then there was a bunch of additional directions and procedures.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But since the passengers were already informed that, hey, we're going to be landing shortly, the crew had to come back on the intercom and basically tell them that Grand Junction couldn't handle the necessary repairs. And that they needed to go to San Francisco airport.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I know I would have been looking out the window counting all of the turns. I mean, like, where are we heading? What is happening? The flight ends up landing in San Francisco, and as requested, four parachutes and two bags of cash were delivered to the airplane.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
The gas tanks were refilled, and about three hours later, after the requests were satisfied, the hijacker released all of the passengers and one of the flight attendants. But then the plane takes off again, and this guy summons a flight attendant and hands her more instructions. Basically, head east, get to 16,000 feet, and fly exactly 200 miles per hour.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Some messages were passed back between the pilot and the hijacker via the flight attendant. And while they're over Utah, the hijacker jumped off the aft stairs of the plane. And five hours after the hijacking began, the crew was able to land safely in Salt Lake City, Utah. So again, no one got hurt. And ultimately, the difference between the D.B.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Cooper case and this one is we actually know who did this hijacking. And he was identified as Richard Floyd McCoy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
It's unfortunate these guys are so cool. Broke out of jail in a garbage truck. Like, that's just... Come on. I know.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Are they going to do a movie off that?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But I would have spent way more money than that, right?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Maybe a strong drink after that jump. He just got a strong drink. I mean, $30 will get you far in the early 70s. So he actually maybe could have bought a lot with that $30. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll have to check that out. I haven't read The Hunger Games in like 10 years.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So through the years, there were a few more suspects, but no real progress in the case. In 1978, hunters in Oregon found an instruction manual showing how to lower the aft staircase on a Boeing 727-100. But this was on the flight path for Flight 305, and it didn't generate any new leads.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
One of the slickest cats to ever walk the face of the earth.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I'm stoked. I know. Would you have admitted you found that money? I know. I thought about that, too.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, I had read something somewhere that it maybe fell into a different part of the river and then was like dragged through the current down to this part, but it probably wasn't found in the spot that it actually landed in.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Like, why are you keeping it? I know.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Put him in another tailspin. So in the mid-1990s, another guy landed on the FBI's radar for the D.B. Cooper case. But again, it doesn't amount to anything. And ultimately, there's no real movement for 28 years. But then in 2008, a few miles southeast of the aerial search zone around Amboy, Washington, some kids noticed fabric sticking out of the ground on their family's farmland.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And it turned out to be a military parachute. They alerted their dad, who immediately called the cops. It looked like the parachute had been buried for a while. And again, the FBI got involved. But they showed the parachute to the guy who owned the skydiving center, the one who had given the four parachutes that were used during D.B. Cooper's hijacking.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And that guy confirmed that it was not the same parachute. The one that he gave was made of nylon, but the one that the kids found was made of silk. And it turned out that the parachute they found was actually way older from a jet that was ditched in December of 1945. So while that is a pretty cool find, it was a total dead end.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Oh, that's interesting. So in 2011, a different guy was outed by his family as a possible suspect because he showed up to Thanksgiving in 1971 bloodied and bruised. But again, as far as I could tell in the research, it didn't seem like this guy would have had the skills to pull off the heist and nothing came of that tip.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
That's interesting you say that because there were a few other deathbed confessions that come forward in this time. Why so many? That is something that I'm really trying to figure out. I actually covered it in an episode of Heart Starts Pounding because we do deathbed confessions episodes. But one of the guys was this man, Walter Recca. And he had told his friend that he was D.B.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Cooper and he was not familiar with planes, but he was really familiar with parachutes because he was a big time skydiver. And so he told his friend about being D.B. Cooper essentially on his deathbed. And then his friend went and made a documentary about it. But there was just a lot that didn't add up. Like Walter really didn't look anything like the composite sketch.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
He was like a little bit older than D.B. Cooper would have been. And he basically confessed that he had no idea what he was doing that day, but he just knew how to use the parachutes when it kind of feels like it was the opposite. It feels like he knew exactly what he was doing that day, but he just didn't know how to use the parachutes. Parachutes weren't a strong point. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And then there was this guy, Dwayne, who one night woke up in the middle of the night having a nightmare and told his wife he had a nightmare about leaving fingerprints near the aft stairs of an airplane before he jumped out. Oh, and his wife was like, OK, that's weird, because think about how meticulous D.B.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Cooper was and collecting the evidence and making sure no one could figure out it was him. And so he would have these nightmares about leaving fingerprints on the plane, like near the stairs. And so his wife was always like, I feel like you might be D.B. Cooper. And so he also confessed on his deathbed. But again, nothing really came of that. It didn't seem like he was a perfect match.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. And the FBI still stresses that they don't actually know if that was Cooper's tie. Because remember, at least one person did go back on the plane to grab something after they were let off. So people were frantic and forgetting things. Someone else could have forgotten the tie. But it is interesting that the FBI, with basically every single piece of evidence,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
is just like, well, we we don't know whose that is. Like the glasses. We don't know who was drinking out the glasses. We kind of didn't pay attention to that. The ties. We don't know whose ties they are. Just kind of the evidence is kind of a mess.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I sort of remember that a little bit.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I mean, he does seem like the most likely just in terms of he was totally capable of doing this. He had done it. So if the shoe fits, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Maybe it's a duck named Richard. So reportedly this finding caused the FBI to reinvestigate the case of D.B. Cooper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And according to this guy named Dan Greider, who has spent over 20 years investigating this case, quote, that rig is literally one in a billion. That's what he's talking about with the parachute that they found that this is one in a billion. It has to be the parachute that he used.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
He also confirmed that the FBI agents visited the McCoys' property searching for clues and that the McCoys willingly gave them the parachute. They were really cooperative. Greider goes on to release two videos in 2021 and 2022 on his YouTube channel, Probable Cause, documenting the McCoys' claims.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And in his latest video, he claims the FBI effectively reopened its investigation after contacting him in late 2023. This is all just according to him, by the way. This is not corroborated. Greider also claims that the FBI, which is in possession of the McCoy parachute, is now searching for, quote, a positive DNA connection between the McCoy's DNA and the Cooper DNA left aboard the aircraft.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And again, FBI has not said that. It is just this man who makes YouTube videos. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And also, one thing that was interesting reading about this era was there was actually a lot of airplane hijackings at the time. So many. A shocking amount. The CIA was getting about one report every single month from 1968 to 1972. It said that 137 planes were hijacked in the U.S. alone. Today, that's so unheard of.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
The money never turned up again. And that means it never got scanned at a bank. So it never made it back to a bank.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, so I guess in theory he could have been just like spending it amongst people. But at some point that would have had to go into a bank and they would have scanned it and figured out that it was part of D.B. Cooper's money.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Bent it elsewhere. That's true. That's true. So in March of 2025, just earlier this year, the FBI released a bunch of old and heavily redacted files detailing their investigation into hundreds of potential suspects in the DB Cooper case. The pages show that they looked into bank robbers, especially those with parachuting skills, as well as non-criminals with parachuting skills.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And of course, people with the last name Cooper. But there were no major bombshells in the documents. Okay, that is basically the whole overview of the case. So I have to ask you, what do you think happened? Who do you think did it?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I'll show you. That is an interesting thing to say. Absolutely. I don't know. What about you? There's kind of two wolves inside of me. There's the one that's like maybe this like the FBI did such a bad job is like get a cover up. Do they know who did it? They just don't want to say maybe it is McCoy. And then part of me is also like he's dead.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I think at this point... He just hit the ground and died.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
He would splat. So I covered a case where the Juliana Kopka case where... See, and that's the case you covered. She floated down in the seat. She survived a 10,000 foot fall out of an airplane. Without a parachute, guys. The other people... Listen to the episode. This is kind of graphic. The other people that didn't survive were... There wasn't a crater around them, but they were like...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
like three feet into the dirt. Like they hit the dirt so hard that most of their body was like lodged into the dirt. So you wouldn't like, but think about it. If you're searching, you're looking for like knee to foot above in the dirt. Yeah. So it becomes like a harder search. And you're in the wilderness. There's animals. There's a lot of animals out there.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
There's humidity and heat and people decompose really fast in there. You'd think they would have found a chute, though. The chute, maybe. I guess if he hit hard enough, maybe the chute got buried under the dirt with him. I guess if it didn't open. If it didn't open. And that's what I'm thinking. Didn't open.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Couldn't get the ripcord. But to go through all that and to have like the acumen to pull off a heist like that and then to just bungle the parachute in the last moment doesn't feel like a D.B. Cooper move. So that's why I'm like he's probably not. He probably didn't die. I don't think he died.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
But back in the day, they had a whole protocol on what to do if your plane got hijacked.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
So maybe he is still alive out there and his family is just like, okay, once you die, we'll come forward and tell everyone what happened.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. Interesting, though. I know. Trying to snitch on your dad. Jerry. What are you doing? Yeah. What were you doing? Where were you? Thanksgiving Eve 1971. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Drop it in the comments right now. I'm not kidding. I want to know what everyone thinks. I want to know what suspect do you think is the most likely. I want to know how you think it happened, what they're doing today, what their phone number is so we can talk to them.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I'm ready. We need to get on a Zoom with D.B. Cooper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yes. And like we said, we want to know all your thoughts and theories. So please, wherever you're listening, leave us a comment. You can write your theory in a review as well. YouTube, Spotify comments. Just, yeah, let us know.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Oh no, I'm afraid of like absolutely everything when flying. So it is something I think about when I'm in a plane. Which this story, we're going to get real deep in my airplane fears. I have really big airplane fears.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
All right. That's all for this episode of Clues. We hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us. And we're going to open another case file next week. But in the meantime, we want to hear from you. Your thoughts, your theories, your feedback. That's everything that makes this community so special.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered. Join our Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Interesting. So when Cooper went to purchase his ticket, he actually asked the ticket seller if the plane was a Boeing 727. And the seller said, yes, it is. But for some reason, the seller didn't really think too much about it. He didn't think that was like a weird question to ask.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Absolutely. I have the filters on as well. Look at you. I don't mess around when it comes to flying. So Cooper paid $20 cash for a one-way ticket on flight 305, which was only supposed to be about 40 minutes long. I don't know if you've ever made that flight. It's super fast. It's quick. Around 3 p.m., he boarded the flight and he took his aisle seat near the back of the plane.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And there, in total, were five crew members aboard this flight. There was the pilot, Captain William Scott. There was the co-pilot, Robert Radizak. There was the senior flight attendant, Alice Hancock. And two flight attendants, Tina Mucklow and Florence Schaffner. When he sat down, Cooper ordered a bourbon and soda, and then he started chain-smoking cigarettes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Smoking a lot on airplanes. So at around 3.05, the plane took off. And a few minutes later, once they get into the air, Cooper hands a note to the flight attendant, 23-year-old Florence Schaffner. She took it, but at first she didn't read it. She actually kind of like folds it up and puts it in her pocket. Cooper ends up turning around to her and saying that she should read the note.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And she unfolds it and it says, Miss, I have a bomb in my briefcase. I want you to sit next to me. And for a little bit of context to help that make a little more sense, flight attendants were like very sexualized at the time. Even TV ads for airlines openly objectified them. So I'm sure Florence was used to being hit on all the time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
It probably wasn't even the first note that a man slipped her that day.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
pestered yes exactly so cooper turns around tells her to read the note she does and then she goes over and she sits by him and he opens his briefcase for her and florence in that briefcase she sees that there's a ton of wires and there's this big battery with a bunch of dynamite sticks wrapped around it and cooper told her that all he had to do was attach a wire to a little gadget that was fixed to the battery and everyone on the plane would be dead
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And he demanded that she write down what he told her. He said he wanted four parachutes, $200,000 in $20 bills. Quote, I want $200,000 by 5 p.m. in cash. Put it in an out sack. I want two back parachutes and two front parachutes. When we land, I want the fuel truck ready to refuel. No funny stuff or I'll do the job. End quote. So with really no other option, Florence wrote all that down.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And then Cooper told her to give that note to the pilot. He wanted the items delivered upon landing at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, SeaTac. And he wanted everything gathered ahead of time so that he was not going to have to wait on the tarmac at SeaTac.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Absolutely. And so Florence goes and she takes that note to the pilot. And when she comes back, Cooper asks her to give him the note back, which is important to remember. And of course, she does exactly what he says.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Exactly. He was being very mindful of the trace he was leaving behind on this plane. And so while all of this was going on, Cooper actually has another flight attendant, Tina Mucklow, come and sit next to him. And according to Tina, Cooper noted that they were flying over what looked like Tacoma at the time.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah, absolutely. And while all this was going on, he seemed really composed. He was just smoking cigarettes and keeping to himself for the most part. And so Tina asked Cooper if he had a grudge against Northwest Orient. She's trying to figure out why he's doing this. What's the motive here? And Cooper said, quote, I don't have a grudge against your airline, miss. I just have a grudge, end quote.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
And unfortunately, Tina was very scared at the time, but that was a very cool thing to say.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Exactly. While he's doing all this, he's keeping one hand inside of the briefcase at all time. So Tina was lighting his cigarettes for him as he was smoking. But as she was doing that, Cooper's making sure to take all the matchbooks so that there's nothing left behind.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Like he was pretty good. Absolutely. And at this point, the authorities get alerted. The pilots had called SeaTac to tell them what was going on. And SeaTac immediately called the FBI to relay the message. They were basically saying like, hey, can you bring us $200,000 in cash and four parachutes? And it kind of seems like at the time the FBI was...
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
essentially like no but they get everything that they need to to get so around 335 the pilot comes on the intercom in the flight and he told the 36 passengers that they were having mechanical issues and they needed to burn off some fuel and he stated that everyone should come up towards the front of the plane which i want to make a note here is a huge fear of mine on flights every time we circle you know how sometimes you have to circle before you land oh have you ever had to do the
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. Nope. I'm always I always think back to this case and I'm like, they know something we don't know. Like the pilot got a message that something is wrong. The plane is going to burn up and they're just not telling us. That's what they were doing to these people on this flight.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
I have a bomb in my briefcase. I want you to sit next to me.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Yeah. Which like good on them, because in actuality, all the people at SeaTac were scrambling to get this money together and the parachutes. So basically, Flight 305 was just circling as a way to buy time so they could get everything that they needed.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
Really smart. So while Cooper demanded four parachutes, it wasn't necessarily an easy task for them to gather all of them. But the manager of SeaTac Airport knew someone who actually agreed to give them four chutes. But amidst the chaos of everything that was going on, they accidentally handed over a dummy reserve chute. So this is the kind that's used during training.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
INFAMOUS: D.B. Cooper
The main canopy of it is sewn shut. So these chutes are always marked with a big X because you have to know that this is not the right chute. You cannot mix these parachutes up. So how they ended up getting one of those on the plane is still kind of beyond me.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And when you have these suppliers that aren't happy, I mean. And aren't getting paid. Also, it's a lot of money to write off as an accounting error or. Yes. Oops, that one I accidentally deposited. It's $100,000. It's $100,000. Yeah. Yeah. And something to note here is that investigators also discover that there were life insurance policies on both Marianne and George.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
The policies were valued at $150,000, and this isn't unusual for business partners, but this did mean that her death would lead to a massive payout for him. That amount of money is equivalent to over a quarter million dollars today. So we put all this together, George's financial crimes and the life insurance policy that he was set to benefit from. This is our third clue.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Ultimately, one of the main clues in this case was found by Marianne herself when she discovered that George was embezzling money from their business. This gave him a very clear motive.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And Marianne's intuition was right. Coffee mug did get analyzed, and the toxicology report found that there were traces of zolpidem. It's a generic name for Ambien, a sleep medication, which would make sense why Marianne was actually falling asleep at work in the afternoons. It's unclear if the medicine was found in her blood from a toxicology report during her autopsy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
I couldn't find a source that says anything either way. But the finding of the Zolpidem explained why Marianne told her boyfriend and doctor that she'd been experiencing this sudden illness and sleepiness at work and why she was concerned about her health. I mean, employees came forward after and they did report Marianne would fall asleep in the afternoons shortly after eating or drinking.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
So everything started to click into place here. But where did this Zolpidem come from? So investigators actually were able to trace this back to George Hansen's sister, who signed a statement saying she provided George with the pills each month, presumably from her own prescription. One source I saw, George actually paid her $25 a month for them.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And while Marion wasn't killed from the sleeping meds, this secret drugging establishes a pattern of harm from George.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
There was no sign of forced entry, no clear motive, but the truth didn't stay hidden for very long. We'll get into it right after this quick break.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Yeah, clearly wanted people to see him, though. Going to a lot of public places.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Make sure he was accounted for. Yes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Which is hard to believe, I think, for me and maybe a lot of you guys out there listening. I mean, if I were to discover someone, I wouldn't touch anything. I'd want the police to be able to gather evidence and find things. So it's a little suspicious that George would bag everything up himself and then throw over a bridge.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
On Tuesday, December 28th, Marianne's funeral was held. It was held at St. Anthony's Catholic Church. Hundreds attended, including community leaders and members of the various clubs Marianne belonged to.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Not much. Just trying to lay low, relax, clean my house. I'm like in my spring cleaning era. Oh, nice. It is that time of year. It is that time of year.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Something that's really interesting to note here, too, is that George did try to say that Marianne was in on all of this money stealing scheme. And so this really could have been a robbery gone wrong.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
During the trial, all of the forensic evidence is presented to the jury. This includes expert testimony about blood splatter at the crime scene, fingerprint and handprints, and DNA.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Loves Park Police Technical Services Director Howard Dean testified that the location and shape of the blood splatters showed that Clibbery was hit at least four times with a weapon, twice standing, and twice on the ground. Quote, could there have been more? The prosecutor asked. Yes, Dean replied. That's the minimum, though, the prosecutor asked. Yes, Dean said.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Illinois State Police forensic scientist Cynthia Kale testified that Clibbery's DNA was found in blood splots on the hammer, cell phone, and brown sweater taken from the garbage bag. Blood from a pair of leather gloves in the bag had Calibri's DNA, Kale said, although a sample of material taken from inside the gloves was inconclusive.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Mark Peters, a forensic pathologist who examined Calibri's body at her December 23rd autopsy, testified that she was hit three to five times in the head with a blunt object. Prosecutors believe the object is the hammer that was found in the garbage bag, which did have blood spots containing Clibbery's DNA.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
The prosecution also called witnesses who helped place George at various places in the day around Marianne's death. Another witness emerged, besides the unnamed ones, who saw the white SUV and the bag on the ice. He testified that he saw Hansen searching for something near the Roscoe Road bridge about a half hour before Hansen and Baxter would report finding Clibbery's body to police.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
So apparently, George was on the bridge in the early morning of December 22nd as well. Quote, I saw a white haired guy. It's that guy right there. Webster said as he nodded to Hansen seating at the defense table.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
It was a busy year. Yeah, how many did you do last year? I did total, I think within a year span, I think it was 38. That's almost one a week. It was a lot.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
As of this recording, we don't really have any recent updates. George Hansen is still in prison at Lawrence Correctional Center in Illinois.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Like, my jaw dropped when I read this. There's an article that talked about how George was actually named in another theft and fraud related case around the same time as Marianne's murder. One of the cases was with his son, Todd Hanson, and involved setting up phony real estate transactions. It seems that this was never solved or tried. And can you guess why? Mm, no. Why?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
The key witness in the case, Daryl Willis, was found murdered in his car. Huh. And they just never solved that? From what I can tell, the murder is unsolved. Wow. However, his son Todd was sentenced to two years in prison in 2003 for a security scam. It's pretty clear. Like, George was up to some nefarious things.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Well, the Ambien is interesting. It's like, were you trying to get her tired in the afternoon so she would drive home and get in an accident? Like, what was the poison?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
We broke it up a little bit luckily and a lot of them were double headers, but live shows are really fun. Getting to meet the listeners. Did you have a favorite place that you did a live show? Oh my gosh. New York got rowdy. Seattle. and Portland. Super rowdy cruise there. So there's so much fun. Every show is so different. So that's a perk.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Well, and for any of us out there that have experienced at least the health care system in our country, it can be hard to get a provider to believe you. You really have to advocate for yourself and it can be exhausting. So it would be easy to brush off a lot of cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
All of this evidence, George's behavior, throwing this, you know, over the bridge. Where does this leave you? Like, are you aligned with the jury? You completely agree? Or are you maybe in the boat of our initial suspect, Kevin?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. It's a duck. But where are you guys at with this one? We'd love to see your comments. Any theories you might have, any Reddit rabbit holes you might have went down. Absolutely.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And before we close this case, I want to share a few things that we learned about Marianne Clibbery during our research because she really seemed like such an incredible person. People said she had a great smile and great personality. She lit up a room whenever she walked in and always wanted to be involved in the community. And she was.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
She was super active in various local groups and events in her community, such as the Red Hat Society, Rockford's Little Miss Fourth of July pageant, On the Waterfront, the Salvation Army Women's Auxiliary Group, and the Parks Chamber of Commerce. Very, very involved. Oh my God, so involved. Yeah. So many groups.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Her younger brother testified at trial that Marianne took care of him and that the family was very close. One of her daughters described her as the rock and glue of the family, our central point for contact. Marianne's boyfriend, Gene Sundin, appeared in interviews after her death and at the trial, and he talked about how heartbroken he felt.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Gene was visually impaired and called Marianne his eyes. Her marker reads, quote, Loving mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, gone but never forgotten, watching over us always.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
strong moral compass yes but that is all we have for this episode of clues we really hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us we're going to open another case file next week but in the meantime we want to hear from you guys your thoughts theories again those rabbit holes you might have went down with this one and all of your feedback because it's what's going to make us deliver a show you all love do these cases justice and it's what makes a community so special
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Hit it. And if you're hungry for more content, we've got you covered. Join our Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
A little bit about Marianne. Marianne Romaine was born on May 21st, 1935. She was one of five children from a poor family. She was born in the Chicago Projects and then moved to Arkansas, but then moved back to Illinois to outside of Rockford specifically. And when she moved back, she actually moved to a house that had no hot water.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
According to one source I found, Marianne was married twice and had five children. At least one of her husbands had left her widowed, but it's actually not clear whether she was divorced or the other one had passed away. And by 2004, when this happened, Marianne had been dating a man named Gene Sundin.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
They'd been together for 15 years, and in one interview I found, Gene described Marianne as his life, his love. They were clearly very attached and happy. Yeah. Marianne had been working at Al Zulo's since 1959, so over 45 years. She actually started out at the company as doing like almost Vanna White commercials and pointing to the cabinetry. The videos were really cool.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And in 1999, 40 years after she started working there, the original owner, Al Zulo, retired. And he gave the business to two people, Marianne and her co-worker, George Hansen, who then became business partners. Marianne was the CFO. She was in charge of all the company's accounting and financial records.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
There are some sources that say she was just such a good boss, like she would front employees their salaries up front out of her own pocket to make sure they were OK. Oh, my gosh.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And then you have George, who was in charge of sales. And the two of them were well known locally for their TV ads.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Hi, friends. Welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And that's interesting and makes sense why investigators then might have suspected that the robbery could be staged. Yes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Yeah, and no sign of forced entry, so one would assume employee with access. Yeah. Upon discovering Mary Ann, police really honed in on the blood spatter pattern. This pattern was found in the office, and it showed that there was fresh blood on top of older coagulated blood. which meant that Marianne was attacked not once, but twice, with some time in between these attacks.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Prosecutors speculated that after the killer attacked Marianne, they might have noticed that she was still alive, so that they came back and attacked her again. Both times, her head was beaten with a hammer. If this was a robbery, she probably wouldn't have been attacked twice and so viciously. So police did have some initial suspects.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
They immediately focused on a recently fired employee named Kevin Doyle. Not only did Kevin notably not like Mary Ann, he also still had keys to the office. According to Marianne's brother, Lou Romaine, Kevin Doyle was fired under great stress, and it did appear like he was having some kind of nervous breakdown.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
When Kevin was questioned, he gave police the alibi that he had been home sick that night, but no one else could corroborate this. No roommates, no family, no friends. So it was kind of a convenient answer, they felt. And get this, on Thursday, December 23rd, the day after, Kevin Doyle actually shows up to try to offer the Clibbery family help.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
He said, I can save the business by returning to work for you guys. Don't worry. Which immediately seems suspicious. I mean, as we talked about in our very first episode, sometimes criminals do return to the scene of the crime.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'll be diving into theories and pulling out the threads that may or may not add up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
But around this time, a tip comes in from an unnamed citizen that changes the investigation. The morning after Marianne's murder, someone sees a black plastic garbage bag on the ice under the Roscoe Road Bridge. And it looks like it had been thrown over the bridge in an attempt to get into the river, but it had missed the water and landed on a sheet of ice.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And just for perspective, this is about 9 or 10 miles from Al Zulo's, but they didn't immediately connect it. And one reason for that is that about a week earlier, a garbage bag was found in the same town with a deceased infant inside of it. So they weren't really sure what was happening. They just could see another bag.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
This is Crime House. This blew my mind. My jaw dropped when I read this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And just so I don't leave everyone on a cliffhanger with that, it was found later that the baby was murdered by its mother. So authorities block traffic on the bridge and retrieve this bag from the ice. Firefighters actually use a ladder truck to lift the bag from the ice and then bring it upon the bridge.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
In the bag, they discover Marianne's purse containing her ID, a bloody hammer, bloody cardigan, and bloody black leather gloves. The items are then sent to a crime lab for processing. It's clear that whoever discarded Marianne's bag attempted to throw it in the river to get rid of it, but missed by a little bit. Though we can't confirm if any money had been taken from her wallet.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Again, it could have been taken to stage an appearance of a robbery. but it's unclear. Looking into the items in the bag a little bit more, the gloves and the sweater, those are going to become one of our next big clues. There was blood found on both of these items. Based on testing, the blood on the gloves and the yellow cardigan sweater was determined to be Marianne's.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
The blood splatter on the sweater was along the right sleeve, which would correspond to a right-handed person hitting her from behind. The collar of the sweater was swabbed to look for skin cells. There were a few different DNA profiles that this came back with. Mary Ann, Al Zulo, the original owner, and George Hansen.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And something to note here is that everyone kind of knew that this sweater was a community sweater, and it was kind of accessible to a lot of people in the office.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
But there were more items in that bag, as we know. Inside of the bag was also a hammer. Scientists analyzed the plastic bag and the hammer for fingerprints. They were placed in a sealed chamber filled with a chemical compound that's actually found in superglue. Basically, the fumes of that chemical stick to oils left by fingerprints.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Then the bag and hammer were processed with fingerprint powder, a fine black powder, which was dusted all over the surfaces. This powder adheres to the chemical compound to make the fingerprints more visible. From this, they discovered three distinct fingerprints and one palm print on the bag. Can you guess who they belonged to? I think I know. Okay. They belonged to George Hansen.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
George's fingerprints were not found on the hammer, though. And if the bag was taken from the office, it could make sense that his fingerprints got on the bag somehow.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Yeah, so no definitive answers yet, even with these big clues. At this point, investigators weren't really sure who discarded the bag, but there's another clue. A white SUV was seen driving back and forth across the bridge the night of the murder. Authorities also received a tip that the white SUV had vanity license plates that read, quote, ZULO 51.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
A car matching that description with the ZULO vanity plate belongs to Marianne's business partner. George Hansen.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
I mean, everything's starting to point towards George.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And the fact that she felt unsafe. Right. So let's talk about who George Hansen was. George was born February 12, 1941. At the end of 2004, when Marianne was murdered, he was 63 years old. He was originally from Wisconsin, but moved to Rockford, Illinois in the 1960s, and George was married with children.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
According to his former employee, Raymond Beardsley, George had a temper and became unglued under stress. Another former employee, Randy Baxter, the one who was actually with George when they found Marianne on December 22nd, said this about George. Quote, he likes to stay in control. He drinks decaffeinated coffee. So it seems like some employees did witness George having outbursts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Although some sources I saw did say that Marianne and George like to keep any business conflicts away from employees. Totally. George is often described as flashy and outgoing, a salesman type.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And Clues is a part of CrimeHouse, and at CrimeHouse, we really value your support. So please share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review, and follow Clues to help others discover the show. For bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our CrimeHouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
So at this point, Marianne does some amateur forensic accounting. And this is where she discovers that George had been stealing from the company by collecting payments from customers and depositing that money in his own account. Marianne comes to the conclusion that George had stolen up to $100,000 from Al Zulo's. This would be around $170K in today's money.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
And upon digging in even further, George also seems to have a fraudulent side business where he'll charge building supplies through Al Zulo's, but then use them for his own personal projects. essentially getting these supplies for free.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
MURDERED: Mary Ann Clibbery
Based on all of what Marianne discovers, Al Zulo's appears to be in danger of bankruptcy, which must have been a complete shock to her, who, until that point, thought the business was doing really well. How long do people think they can get away with that for? I mean, you're not. Because obviously everything's going to tip. People have to get paid. Right.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Until about a month later on Friday, August 1st, when the killer takes on a whole new dimension. On Friday, August 1st, we get our second clue, when three different newspapers in the Bay Area receive identical copies of the exact same letter. Just like the phone call, the writer claims to be the one who killed David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen, and Darlene Farron.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And as always, at CrimeHouse, we really value your support. So please share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review and follow clues to help others discover our show. For bonus episodes, early access and ad-free listening, join our CrimeHouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
He even gives some information to prove he's legitimate, he's the real deal. He's providing info that only the killer would know. He provides info on the type of ammo that were used in these murders, how many times the victims were shot, and even how the bodies looked after he killed them. But there's something else about these letters.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Each one has this elaborate cipher, basically a secret message written in random symbols. And again, you guys will see these pictures on YouTube and on our social media. The symbols alone make this just feel so creepy. They're terrifying. I literally have the chills just like envisioning it in my head.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And along with this, the author claims that the secret message contains the answer to his identity. And there's a threat. He says that if the papers don't print the cipher and his letter by that afternoon, he will start killing people one by one until they do. And he doesn't sign his name. Of course not, right? That'd be too easy. It's right there in the cipher for you guys.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But he does leave one strange symbol. A circle with a cross through it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
The sniper symbol, a lot of people call it. So naturally, the newspaper editors are really freaked out by this. They don't want blood on their hands. So they decide to publish the letter and the cipher over the weekend. In the meantime, the police are calling the writers bluff. They publicly announced that they don't think the real killer wrote this letter.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And they basically say, if it's really you, prove it, which a little risky, guys. Prove it. That could mean a lot of things. They hope that he writes them another letter with more info. But to me, that's a taunt. Like, prove it. Yeah. You hope that this person wouldn't take it as, oh, well, prove it. I'll kill more people.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
No. And luckily for them, there's no response. There's no other murders that are linked to the killer that weekend. So it seems maybe he is satisfied with the fact that the newspaper published these letters. But at the same time, the mission to decode this cipher... This major clue is on. The authorities have some of the best codebreakers working on the Zodiac Cipher.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I'm talking people from the NSA, CIA, Naval Intelligence. The best and brightest, you would think. They spend about a week trying to crack this cipher, But it's not actually any of those organizations that decode it. It's actually a married couple named Donald and Betty Hardin who happen to see the puzzle in their local newspaper.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
A history teacher and his wife, big organizations, best and brightest got a week. They cracked this in two days. Betty was actually the one to make the breakthrough, which is pretty badass considering she's just, you know, a puzzle nerd with no formal training.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I mean recruit them both like yeah Don actually I saw on one source he just loved doing puzzles and like did it throughout college yeah so it's like they cracked this and you don't bring them on in some regard then okay seems like missed opportunity there yeah but here's what Don and Betty determine the message says Quote, I like killing people because it is so much fun.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal of all. To kill something gives me the most thrilling experience. It is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl. The best part of it is that when I die, I will be reborn in paradise and they, I have killed, will become my slaves.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I will not give you my name because you will try to slow me down or stop my collecting of slaves for the afterlife. This was then followed by a line of indecipherable gibberish.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I mean, the stuff that they do decipher is creepy enough to put everyone in a tailspin.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. And while they're not able to decipher that last line, they got enough that they think they know that they're like, OK, this is bad. This is creepy. We need to get this to the authorities. So Donald actually calls the San Francisco Chronicle pretty much immediately after cracking this. And get this, they brush him off.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They've actually been getting hundreds of people calling and they don't want to hear answers over the phone. So they tell the Hardens to mail in their solution and the police will check it out when they can.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Snail mail? Yeah. We're going to resort to snail mail? Oh, we'll get it in three weeks and then we'll check it out. I mean, snail mail nowadays is tough. Takes so long. Back then? The thing is, too, the Hardens are the only ones that get this right. They're the only ones able to decipher it. It does take a few days to get it to police.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And then it takes a few days for naval intelligence to actually verify it. And before the cipher can be verified, the killer writes another letter to newspapers, which arrives on August 7th. And this time, he introduces himself. He begins with the now iconic phrase, quote, this is the Zodiac speaking. The letter is way too long for us to read here. We would we would need days with me reading it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But again, it has a ton of details that only the killer would know. Again, proving he is legitimate. The letter goes on to describe how he shot Darlene and Mike through the passenger side window and how Mike managed to jump into the back seat. And he explained that he killed his first victims, David and Betty Lou, with a gun that had a flashlight taped to it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Five days later, on August 12th, is when the hardened solution finally gets published in the paper, too. And it becomes clear to the public that the Zodiac Killer is extremely dangerous. And this is made even clearer when a month and a half later, he strikes again.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
To this day, no one knows who the Zodiac Killer was. And it continues to be the topic of heated speculation. And so we're taking a closer look at it. More on this case and the clues the Zodiac Killer left behind right after this quick break.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, I pulled it up on YouTube to see after I was reviewing the script and you left that note and I was blown away by how real it feels.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
It's just insane. Like the way that they're just they're staring at each other. They're at like this impasse and Brian's trying to talk to him. Can I help you? And, you know, I'm a pre-law.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Most beautiful day. And the look of this hood, this executioner style hood, it does look medieval and it is just incredible.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Because he does find this phone that's off the hook. This is where we could have maybe gotten one of our bigger clues in this case because they actually found a clear palm print on the phone receiver. The print was actually still wet when investigators found it, which that fact, like how fresh that was.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. Which makes these investigators assume it had to have been left by the killer. It's that fresh hanging off the hook. But this is where I see sources kind of conflict a bit on the information. There's one source that says the print wasn't given enough time to dry and it was actually then ruined in the lifting process. Another says it just never produced any matches.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So unclear if we have this print or not. But if it was ruined in the lifting process, this adds our first tally to the botch list. Yeah, we're keeping track this time. Today we are keeping score a little bit.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
There's number one for us, friends. But investigators do have several clues left at this scene, though. They were able to find boot prints, tire tracks, and they were actually able to get four different descriptions of a suspect and his vehicle from other people that may have seen him that day. The killer actually left a message written on the couple's car with a black marker pen.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
It read, quote, Vallejo 12-20-68. comma, 7-4-69. And then it had September 27th-69, 630 by knife. And it had the same distinctive symbol that the killer had written on his letters, the same symbol Cecilia and Brian noted on their attacker's hooded mask, a circle with a cross through it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
He wanted to make it crystal clear.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Unfortunately, Cecilia doesn't survive the attack, but she was alive for long enough after the attack that police could talk to her, and she does remember a crucial detail. She saw what he looked like before he put that hood on, and she describes him as being a white guy with brown hair, probably taller than 5'10", and overweight.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
However, the cop never relays that Cecilia saw his face because he didn't think it would be important. And that's on botched. Mark it. Number two on the tally. Brian does luckily recover from this attack, and he is able to give a detailed description of their attacker and what happened. And like I said, the police do learn a lot from the crime scene.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They know that the Zodiac parked right behind Brian's car, so they're able to take a plaster of those tire tracks they found. They can't really tell what kind of car it is, but they know that the treads are really worn down. which could help in identifying it later. I also saw some details that the car had different tires from the front and the back, which could make it then only a few models.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And again, they did have a few eyewitnesses that saw someone suspicious. There were actually three girls that observed a man in a light-colored car watching them multiple times. Wow.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
by Brian's car leading to and from the crime scene, and they don't match Cecilia or Brian's, they actually discover that they're a 10 and a half sized military boot. And by the depth of how far the boot sunk in, they're able to estimate that the killer weighs about 220 pounds.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They didn't have much of it back then. They didn't have much. And in the aftermath of this attack, the police do talk to a few potential suspects, but nobody is sounding alarm bells for them. So it seems again like the Zodiac is slipping away. But only a few weeks go by before he claims another victim.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I knew nothing. And that's going to be a common theme for me, you guys. Like, I really get into these cases when we add them to our list and I go ham. I go into the subreddits. But I had like briefly heard, you know, Zodiac in the same way that Golden State was mentioned. But I really didn't know anything about this case. And I'm blown away. Like, I'm I'm.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, I don't need to say it. You saw me add the tally if you're watching on YouTube. Botched column gets another mark.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And that brings us to the bloody prints found on the outside of the cab, likely belonging to the killer. Now, this is long before the day of automated print matching. So if investigators wanted to find a match, it would have had to have been done manually and with visually inspecting each print laid on top of each other. Can you imagine how tedious that is?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
No. How were they even cataloged? And that only worked if they were cataloged, if those prints were on file already. And obviously this is a long shot. We all hear how this sounds, right? But this is still such a valuable asset to have if they can get a killer. It helps them ID and really corroborate that they were at this scene and did this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And I will say there's some conflicting sources that I saw. I know, Kaylin, in your research, you came across palm print.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. And that was really interesting. And so I saw in some sources that they did find bloody fingerprints. So a little conflicting and even more so conflicting when we get this additional info after detectives talk to the teenagers that witnessed this whole thing. So the kids are able to give detectives a more detailed description of the killer. And they also describe his behavior afterwards.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They say he's about 5'8 and stocky, between 25 and 30 years old, with a reddish blonde crew cut, and he was wearing glasses. It will say this is a little bit different than everyone else saying he had brown hair. When you Google Zodiac Killer, the sketch police drew from this is one of the most common images that actually pops up.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And again, you will see it, but it's even the main image on his Wikipedia article. And except for the hair color, it's basically in line with all of the other descriptions of the Zodiac so far.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And it's dark. There's like a street lamp across. You know, it's easy to get your color off a little bit. But this next part is something that really interests me in this case and something that the subreddit on it goes in on a lot. The teenagers actually say that they observed the killer wiping down parts of the car's interior, places like the dash.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They also saw him going to the exterior front doors. And they say he was leaning over the victim and kind of like they couldn't really tell what he was doing, but definitely like leaning over the victim and almost rummaging him a little bit. But because this crime is so unlike the others, the police don't even make the connection between this and the Zodiac's other crimes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
At least, not until he makes it crystal clear for them. On October 15th, 1969, four days after Paul Stein was killed, the San Francisco Chronicle runs the newest installment of the Zodiac Killers letters right on the front page. In this recent letter to prove that he really was responsible for Paul's murder, he includes a piece of Paul's bloody shirt.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
That is probably what those teenagers observed. He takes credit for killing Paul, brags that the police could have caught him if they had properly searched the area. And the most chilling part of the letter, though, is how it ends. The Zodiac says, quote, schoolchildren make nice targets. I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kitties as they come bouncing off, which, of course, sends people into even more of a full blown panic. Because at this point, nobody knows what the Zodiac is capable of. He is going to insane degrees of crime. And it's scary.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Completely unpredictable and clearly off his rocker.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Oh, did we lock one in? I don't know. Vote for whichever one you guys think. This will be the one. Yeah. This will be the comments I scour through for what name you guys want to go by. And let's see. I do like Cluminati. Yeah, I like Cluminati. And after going to the Beyonce concert. Yeah. The triangles. I was like, oh, she's really embracing this. She's really leaning into the Illuminati.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They're coming out. So maybe maybe the Illuminati. Maybe that's it. The sleuthers. But we're going to put it to you guys. So this is the episode. Make your votes. OK, let's get into this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. Now, I will say some people think Kathleen wasn't actually abducted by the Zodiac killer, but by someone else or maybe she made up the whole thing entirely. And I always err on the side of believing the victim like Kathleen was clearly traumatized by this event. But I do want to get into some of the theories that I saw.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So some of the skeptics actually point to the original police report, which has no mentioning of him threatening to kill Kathleen or her daughter. It just says he was, quote, They also point out a specific detail, that Kathleen said she escaped into a vineyard, but the only vineyards in the area were close to where she originally stopped her car.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
which made people speculate that maybe she made this up and just assumed there were more vineyards around where she hopped out. Some theorized that it was an elaborate insurance scheme to get money for her car or that she was looking for publicity in some way.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But that begs the question, why would a pregnant woman with a 10-month-old baby go through all that trouble for an insurance scheme to get attention as she's on her way to take care of her sick mom? Yeah, right. I don't think she made it up. I mean, if you read the actual police report, the very next line talks about her being extremely frightened.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So I'm not sure how you jump from he was so pleasant to she was really frightened. It just it seems confusing for me. And this is such a niche like note for anyone in the medical field. And if you've used the program Epic to document your medical notes. You kind of have these like dot phrases that you just habitually will type in like a patient's chart.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And I was almost like questioning, you know, myself. And I'm like, maybe the officer just had like a continuous phrase. He would kind of be like non-threatening, wasn't alluding to anything. And maybe that's how that got in. I don't know. Regardless, I don't think she made this up. I'm way more inclined to go with the next theory, which is that maybe the Zodiac just couldn't go through it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
He was clearly driving around for an extended period of time. kind of didn't know what his next move seemingly was. And maybe killing this pregnant woman and her little baby was just a step too far for even him. Kathleen was so scared, so traumatized. She jumped out of a car into a ditch, seven months pregnant. Me personally, if I had just broken down a little ways back and there were vineyards,
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I'm going to assume any ditch and greenery could be a vineyard.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I'm not going to be like, oh, my God, no, this is a field with wheat. Like, she was so scared. And we know trauma and all of that can change people's memories and recollection in their brain. So I'm going to give Kathleen the benefit of the doubt here. And if that isn't enough for you, well, the Zodiac Killer does come forward and take credit for this kidnapping.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
We do. So the Zodiac Killer writes another letter to the San Francisco Chronicle a few months after Kathleen's kidnapping in July 1970. He confesses to it and he doesn't offer many details that could confirm this, too, which I think is really interesting.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And obviously all of these previous letters have been published. So at this point, how are we deciphering? Is this Zodiac or is this someone taunting the press? Right. And he basically just says, yeah, I did it. No other details.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And so some do really speculate like this is just another one that he's taking credit for to get more attention or people are starting to toy with the press and kind of the fact that they've enabled all of this by publishing all these letters. And after that, the Zodiac goes quiet for a few months. And then with Halloween approaching, he decides to get a lot more personal.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
He writes to the San Francisco Chronicle's lead reporter, Paul Avery. Avery has covered the Zodiac Killer a lot. But he doesn't exactly seem intimidated by him. In one article from the year before, Avery actually called the Zodiac Killer, quote, a clumsy criminal, a liar, and possibly a latent homosexual.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
No, I would have been wearing one of these buttons, too. And as you said, Avery does start to take him a lot more seriously after this because of this direct threat on his life.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
This message is printed in the newspaper, and it's picked up all over the country, and it actually leads to a massive development in this case because the story catches the attention of an anonymous reader down in Riverside, California. hundreds of miles away from where the Zodiac has been killing his victims.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And this reader tells Avery to look into a murder, one that happened back in October of 1966, and it's one that he believes was the Zodiac's first real kill.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Here you are not connecting it to the police. So you don't know what damage that could be doing.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So who is Arthur Lee Allen? Well, according to Don, he first met Arthur back in 1962 through Arthur's younger brother, Ron. Don and Ron went to Cal Poly Pomona in Southern California together. And Arthur, who's about 29 at that time, hangs out with them a lot. They like to have beers and go hunting together. They all end up living in the Bay Area in the late 60s, specifically Vallejo.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And as a reminder, this is where the Zodiac's first two confirmed attacks were, on December 20th, 1968, and on July 4th, 1969. And just a couple of weeks after that first attack, right around New Year's Day, 1971, Don went to go hang out with Arthur at his apartment. Don notes that Arthur is a big fan of science fiction.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And when he goes there that day, Don notices that Arthur has a sci-fi magazine on the table. But it's flipped open to a particular story, one called The Man from Zodiac. At the time, it didn't really mean a whole lot to Don, since the killer wouldn't refer to himself as the Zodiac Killer until later that year.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But the image really stuck in Don's mind, because Arthur was also acting really strange that day. He had recently been fired from his job as a teacher and was talking about a career change. He wanted to become a private investigator. Don points out to Arthur that, hey, you have zero experience and you don't really have a network to draw from either.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But Arthur said that doesn't really matter because he can create his own cases. Specifically, he says he'll go after victims at night using a flashlight attached to a gun barrel and he'll pick victims at random to really throw police off. Mind you, this was 12 days after the attack on David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen. So the story would have been all over the news, especially locally.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So it is totally possible that Arthur just saw the headlines and was picking out details from that. Except he takes this all a step further and adds something else. One detail that wouldn't be widely known until much later. Arthur says he would also write strange letters to confuse the police even more. And this little detail, and he would sign them Zodiac. And you guys are like, what?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
That's not all? Arthur also talks about going after children by shooting the tires off a school bus and killing them as they came, quote, bouncing out, which is the same language the Zodiac Killer would later use. On top of that, Arthur apparently showed Don a watch he had just gotten. The name of the brand? Zodiac.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And its symbol is the same one the Zodiac Killer used to sign his letters, a circle with a cross inside. That gunshot, yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And I feel all of this combined, the fact they didn't verify his alibi, the fact that he had bloody knives in his car... This deserves one tally.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. Not looking into him more. It deserves one, at least.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
God, you guys, my face this whole time as Kaylin's been saying this. Like, we all know, like, one of the more traditional signs is people that hurt animals. And it's like, are these actually the squirrels you got from the bio lab? Or where did they come from, Arthur? Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
That handwriting sample, obviously a big part of this case. And you all know the Reddit sub on this one has a lot to say about it. They do. Arthur actually gets his own little acronym. A lot of the online sleuths call him ALA. And there's a lot of people that actually question his handwriting.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Some think it does look similar to the Zodiacs, but it's different enough that experts don't think it's the same person. But you have to wonder, like, did he disguise this? You know, me in my rational head, I would assume that he'd be smart enough to change his handwriting if police come knocking on his door and... Hey, can you give us a sample?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Like, you know that all of these letters have been published. It's it's common knowledge.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Did they go back and get another one with the other hand?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I think he's faking it. Another really interesting point in this is people note that Arthur actually lived only 150 yards from the restaurant where one of the victims, Darlene Farron, worked. So they kind of draw that connection. However, a lot of people don't think he was the Zodiac. And they point to the reason they think this because he didn't commit any violent crimes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And I'm using air quotes, right? Because everyone's definition of violent might be a little different. And there is credible evidence that Arthur actually did inappropriately touch Don Chaney's daughter during a camping trip in 1967. And... Arthur was later convicted as a pedophile when he was arrested in 1974 for molesting a young boy and he was sent to prison for three years.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. And if we think back to Lake Berryessa, the suspect, the person of interest that day, was seen parked nearby those three girls outside just watching them. And then went after a couple. Like... There's just some eerie connections here that kind of make you feel like it's more than just a coincidence. And of note, after 1974, there were no confirmed Zodiac letters.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
There were also no murders linked to the Zodiac during that time either.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
There's a lot of theories on this. Some point to the journalists. Some point to people... Oh, I have a whole conspiracy theory. Yeah, there's so, so, so many. And if you really want to get into that rabbit hole, the subreddit is a great place to start.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah. And I would be very curious to within this time frame, how many letters overall these newspapers got, because there were a lot.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Can you imagine if someone in our community cracked this? Please.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They were able to get a partial DNA sample from a stamp that the Zodiac attached to his letter back on November 11th, 1969. And while Arthur Lee Allen had died by then, he actually passed away in 1992 from a heart attack, they still had a sample of his DNA on file. The San Francisco Police Department's crime lab tested it, and it came back negative. Negative.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
No, unfortunately, they didn't. And something the subreddit talks about quite a bit is will this case ever be solved?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I don't know. And I know you disagree with me on that. I think he is one of those people where the shoe is probably the closest fit. I would have been very curious if they ever found boots that were similar in his house. But, you know, we we only have a few things to go off of if we are trying to solve this today.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Clue number one the appearance you know the description from multiple victims and people who saw a suspect in the area on the day during the time you know all of that. And then clue number two those letters and ciphers.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, try, try, try though.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
I don't know how that gets written on the cipher. I know. It is very, very interesting, especially because I believe that was from one of the early letters. It was the first one. Before he was ever considered a suspect. So to have that tie to his past, such a deep connection. Yeah. That is the one that does lead me to believe it could be him.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And the fact that after he went to prison, letters stopped. There were no other killings tied to the Zodiac. So it's just an interesting connection. We do have another piece of evidence that could be used. You know, there's the prints that were found on Paul Stein's cab. For me, it's hard to think it belonged to anyone but the Zodiac Killer. Granted, you know, Paul was a cab driver.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
A lot of people getting in and out. It seems like the bloody prints would obviously belong to whoever did this.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
You never know. And I mean, we have a few botched tallies. That could be another one if that's the case. We just we don't know with that. Yeah.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
It got Golden State somewhat recently. Absolutely. I hope they are able to get a good enough sample and maybe get a genealogy hit eventually.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But that is all we have for you guys today. It is time to wrap up this case file. To this day, the Zodiac remains one of the most chilling unsolved crimes. From the seemingly random attacks, the taunting letters, the mysterious ciphers, two of which we're waiting on you guys to help solve, there is still so, so much we don't know. How many victims did he really have? What did he do? Who was he?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Sadly, these are questions that may never get answered, leaving the Zodiac Killer's identity shrouded in darkness forever.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Do I need to get not-Kaylin Moore buttons made?
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Again, at CrimeHouse, we really value your support. So share those thoughts on social media. We want to see you guys in the comments. And we want to see your reviews. Remember to rate us and follow Clues to help others discover our show. And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
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Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, investigators get into this pretty quickly, and they learn that there was a six-minute period where David and Betty were the only people on Lovers Lane. And the shooting happened in that six-minute window. So there were no eyewitnesses. Wow. The only small clue we really get is investigators can tell that the gunshots came from a .22 caliber rifle. But that is about it.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
There's no tire tracks, no footprints, nothing. And there's also not really anything about this crime scene to suggest a motive. There's no sign of robbery, no indication of sexual assault. And these were just two kids out at Lover's Lane and about to head home. I mean, it's just mind-blowing to me.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
The best lead they have is that a suspicious white Chevy Impala was driving around the area that night. A few months go by, and with no new leads, police don't really have a place to start on this. never going to get solved? That is, until four months later, when an eerily similar crime occurs.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'm going to be the one diving into some of the Reddit forums and talking about the lesser known details and pulling out those threads that add up or don't.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, we all have one of those areas where we grew up. Mine is Skyline Parkway in Duluth. There's rules. You don't park next to another car. You don't peer in other cars. Like, you just, you're trying to make out. There's rules.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
It's known that you give each other privacy.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
You don't know when there's headlights blasting in your car. It's dark and you can't see in the other car. I've had someone do this to me. Yeah. Where me and a high school boyfriend were making out in the backseat of the car. They pulled up right behind us, turned their brights on and didn't move. And you know, it's not a coincidence. And you just you feel how scary it is.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So yeah, I can imagine they were confused and
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, we now have a description of this attacker. According to Mike, the attacker was a white male on the stockier side, about 5'8 and 200 pounds. He actually says he has a little bit of a pot belly. He also had short brown hair, almost like a military style cut and a big face, though Mike couldn't make out any specific details on his face. The light in his face was obscuring everything.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
Yeah, it's hard to see. But detectives actually had another detail about this killer. And that came from none other than the killer himself. He actually called the Vallejo police a half hour or so after the attack that night. And here's what he said. Quote, I want to report a murder. If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find kids in a brown car.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
He's providing info that only the killer would know. There's two teenagers on the ground, soaked in blood. She can still remember that voice just clear as day in her head. But there's something else about these letters. Each one has this elaborate cipher. Hi, welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
They were shot with a nine millimeter Luger. I also killed those kids last year. Goodbye.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
No, I've seen interviews with her somewhat recently, and she feels she can still remember that voice just clear as day in her head. Unfortunately, though, he hangs up rather quickly after that, so she's not able to ask him any questions. And the whole thing was totally unexpected, right? Like he just randomly called. It's not like the police get this on a daily basis with people who commit crimes.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
So they weren't able to record it either. But now they know what he looks like and they have an idea what he sounds like. Beyond that, though, the evidence is still super thin. Like I said, they weren't able to record it, but they were able to trace it back to a payphone. And this payphone was actually about one mile away from the police station.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer
But the caller was long gone by the time they got there, and there was no evidence left behind. So the police are pretty much grasping at straws at this point. They look into a few of Darlene's friends, but nobody really matches the description or feels like a possible suspect. So it feels like this case is also heading towards going cold.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
Introducing Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore!
And now we're teaming up on Clues, a Crime House original show powered by Pave Studios. Every Wednesday on Clues, we'll break down the small but crucial details that cracked open some of the most infamous cases. I'll be your internet sleuth pulling out the threads that don't add up or maybe do and digging into the unanswered questions that still linger.
Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore
Introducing Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore!
We're talking about the hair fiber that sealed a conviction, a footprint that blew open an alibi, and the case that took decades to solve until somebody finally connected the dots.
Otherworld
Episode 123: The Story of The Integratron
Hey, it's Morgan Absher. And I'm Kaylin Moore. And we're the hosts of the Crime House original podcast, Clues. Every Wednesday, we sneak past the crime scene tape and open a new case file for some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Otherworld
Episode 123: The Story of The Integratron
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up. From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing that went into the world's most infamous cases.
Otherworld
Episode 123: The Story of The Integratron
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 123: The Story of The Integratron
Follow and listen to Clues, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House, available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Otherworld
Episode 123: The Story of The Integratron
Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute.
Otherworld
Episode 120: The Final Visitor
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 120: The Final Visitor
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 124: Off Trail
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 124: Off Trail
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 104: The Reader Pt. 2
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 104: The Reader Pt. 2
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 110: Never Ending Road
Während Kaelin die Zeitlinien zusammenfasst und die schwierigen Fakten dieser Fälle ausbreitet, werde ich in die Theorien reißen und die Folgen, die vielleicht oder vielleicht nicht, abhängen.
Otherworld
Episode 110: Never Ending Road
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 107: The Expedition
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 107: The Expedition
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 109: The Fake Seance
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 109: The Fake Seance
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson of DOPS
And we're the hosts of the Crime House original podcast, Clues. Every Wednesday, we sneak past the crime scene tape and open a new case file for some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Otherworld
Interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson of DOPS
From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing that went into the world's most infamous cases.
Otherworld
Interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson of DOPS
Follow and listen to Clues, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House, available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Otherworld
Episode 106: Up in the Sky
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 106: Up in the Sky
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 108: Face to Face
Hey, it's Morgan Absher. And I'm Kaylin Moore. And we're the hosts of the Crime House original podcast, Clues. Every Wednesday, we sneak past the crime scene tape and open a new case file for some of the most gripping true crime cases.
Otherworld
Episode 108: Face to Face
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up. From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing that went into the world's most infamous cases.
Otherworld
Episode 108: Face to Face
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 108: Face to Face
Follow and listen to Clues, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House, available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Otherworld
Episode 121: The Vortex
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 121: The Vortex
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 111: The Sleepover
Während Kaylin die Zeitlinien zusammenfasst und die schwierigen Fakten dieser Fälle ausbreitet, werde ich in die Theorien reißen und die Folgen, die vielleicht oder vielleicht nicht, abhängen.
Otherworld
Episode 111: The Sleepover
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Otherworld
Episode 105: Second Chance
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Otherworld
Episode 105: Second Chance
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And I'll be piecing together the timelines, analyzing the forensic science and tracking the hard evidence that changed everything.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And some clues are obvious, but some are hidden in plain sight. And sometimes they lead to places and convictions that no one ever expected. So if you're like us and can't stop combing through case files and crime documentaries, This is the show for you. Tune in every week for clues, where even the littlest details matter, and sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Yes. It's important to know a little bit more about this boat, actually. So Scott bought it on December 9th, 2002. about two weeks prior to Lacey's disappearance. And if you've been paying attention to the timeline here, December 9th is also when he told Amber Fry, his mistress, that he had a wife who had passed away previously. Just so we're all on the same page with that.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
He also bought this boat in cash, which when you also add in the fact that he was keeping it in a warehouse away from his family, no one knew about this boat. There was no paper trail leading him to this boat. Feels pretty secretive. According to Scott, on December 24th, the day Lacey went missing, that was the first time he had ever taken this boat out in general.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Even though he had bought it on December 9th, he had never taken it out before, but he thought that the day Lacey went missing was the perfect time to take it out. Christmas Eve, why not? Yeah, right. Five hours round trip. Can't get over that. Scott himself even said that Lacey had never been on this boat before. But one of the biggest clues in this case was found on the boat.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And eventually the prosecution for this case argued that because Lacey's hair was found on the boat, it meant that she had been on the boat. If not when she was alive, then when she was dead. Because hair wasn't just found on clothing. It wasn't just found strewn about in the boat. Like maybe it had gotten on Scott's shirt and fell off, whatever. It was wrapped up in pliers. Yeah.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And a very strange spot for the hair to be.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And again, too, it makes me think about how maybe there was a chance that he hugged her goodbye in the morning. Hair got on his shirt. It got onto the boat. But we're never going to know that because Scott washed his clothes the second he got home. So all of that evidence is gone now.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
If you want to take a peek into our case files, make sure you're following us on socials at Crime House and at Clues Podcast on Instagram.
Serialously with Annie Elise
270: Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Hi there, I'm Morgan Absher. And I'm Kayla Moore. Between Morgan's show, Two Hot Takes, and my show, Heart Starts Pounding, we've spent years dissecting the internet's craziest stories and the world's most chilling true crime cases.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And I'll be piecing together the timelines, analyzing the forensic science, and tracking the hard evidence that changed everything.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
we're talking about the hair fiber that sealed a conviction a footprint that blew open an alibi and the case that took decades to solve until somebody finally connected the dots and some clues are obvious but some are hidden in plain sight and sometimes they lead to places and convictions that no one ever expected so if you're like us and can't stop combing through case files and crime documentaries
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
This is the show for you. Tune in every week for clues where even the littlest details matter. And sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Yes. It's important to know a little bit more about this boat, actually. So Scott bought it on December 9th, 2002.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
about two weeks prior to lacy's disappearance and if you've been paying attention to the timeline here december 9th is also when he told amber fry his mistress that he had a wife who had passed away previously just so we're all on the same page with that he also bought this boat in cash which when you also add in the fact that he was keeping in a warehouse away from his family no one knew about this boat there was no paper trail leading him to this boat feels pretty secretive
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
According to Scott, on December 24th, the day Lacey went missing, that was the first time he had ever taken this boat out in general. Even though he had bought it on December 9th, he had never taken it out before, but he thought that the day Lacey went missing was the perfect time to take it out. Christmas Eve, why not? Yeah, right. Five hours round trip. Can't get over that.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Scott himself even said that Lacey had never been on this boat before. But one of the biggest clues in this case was found on the boat.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And eventually the prosecution for this case argued that because Lacey's hair was found on the boat, it meant that she had been on the boat. If not when she was alive, then when she was dead. Because hair wasn't just found on clothing. It wasn't just found strewn about in the boat. Like maybe it had gotten on Scott's shirt and fell off, whatever. It was wrapped up in pliers. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Which is a very strange spot for the hair to be.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And again, too, it makes me think about how maybe there was a chance that he hugged her goodbye in the morning. Hair got on his shirt. It got onto the boat. But we're never going to know that because Scott washed his clothes the second he got home. So all of that evidence is gone now.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
If you want to take a peek into our case files, make sure you're following us on socials at Crime House and at Clues Podcast on Instagram.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Hi there, I'm Morgan Absher. And I'm Kayla Moore. Between Morgan's show, Two Hot Takes, and my show, Heart Starts Pounding, we've spent years dissecting the internet's craziest stories and the world's most chilling true crime cases.
Trained to Kill: The Dog Trainer, the Heiress and the Bodyguard
Puppy Love
Hey, it's Morgan Absher. And I'm Kaylin Moore.
Trained to Kill: The Dog Trainer, the Heiress and the Bodyguard
Puppy Love
While Kaylin pieces together the timelines and breaks down the hard facts of these cases, I'll be diving into the theories and pulling at the threads that may or may not add up.
Trained to Kill: The Dog Trainer, the Heiress and the Bodyguard
Puppy Love
These clues shine a light on stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we open a case and uncover the breakthroughs, the heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.