Minda Harts
Appearances
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
you know, trust is one of those things that it's almost as though, and I'm glad you defined it earlier because I think again, context, right. For people to understand, because what trust means to me might mean something different to you might mean something different to someone else.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
And, you know, that leads me to, we talked a little bit about the difference between safety and security, but I'm wondering for those leaders or even those employees listening, you know, how, how, how can leaders create more psychological security, like having those kind of conversations?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
We talked about how it's more of an internal piece, but when you do have somebody that's coming saying, hey, I don't trust you, but that's not really the leaders necessarily their fault that you don't trust them.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Yeah, that's very important. And I love that distinction. You know, I'm also thinking about how psychological security has changed in these hybrid work models in the digital age. Can you talk a little bit about that and how leaders can and even how as individuals we can think about that in the context of trust?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Yeah, that's a good point. And I think that's important to know. I'm sure we both could trade war stories about different companies and clients that we went into and they have all the materials, but the behaviors haven't been changed or modified in terms of, you know, if you were a micromanager in the office, then you're probably going to be one virtually.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
You know, what's the real reason why we're doing this?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Yeah, that part. Well, listen, I could talk to you all day about this and hopefully we can have tea and talk about more of it. But I want to shift gears just a little and talk about trust in a different way. But I want to play a little game that I call trust tipping points. I'll describe a workplace scenario, very short, where trust hangs in the balance.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
And you tell us the moment that trust tips either towards security or insecurity. Does that make sense? I think so. Okay.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
A team member shares a vulnerable mistake. Where's the moment where that could either go really well or it could be really bad, you know?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
And many of us have probably experienced that too many times to count. So you just got a tip on how you tip it toward the right direction. Let's try another. That was really good.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
That was really good. I hope everybody's taking notes because these things happen, folks. You've probably seen them each and every day. A new initiative faces resistance.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Yes, definitely. I think we're seeing some of these things emerge, even as we speak, as you said, with return to work, you know, a lot of that there too. One last question. You're really good at this, Rachel. A workplace conflict emerges.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
We'll bounce back into a few more last questions, but I'm really curious about your experience at Oxford. How has teaching trust at Oxford shaped your understanding of trust and leadership?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Hey, Money Rehab fam. I'm Minda Hartz, guest hosting for Nicole this week while she's out on maternity leave. This week, we're exploring the seven trust languages from my upcoming book, Talk To Me Nice. And today, we're focusing on security. how we create environments where people feel safe enough to be themselves. My guest literally wrote the book on trust. Actually, she's written three.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Absolutely. That's really, really great. I also want to congratulate you on your new audiobook, How to Trust and Be Trusted. You spoke to a range of leaders, a teacher, an admiral in the Navy, the head of Dorchester Hotels, about how they earn trust. What surprised you the most?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
I love that. And one of the things that I want us to think about as leaders, what's one thing we can do tomorrow to create more trust on our team?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
I love that. I think about trust, you know, a lot in my professional life and my personal life. And, you know, you've been a go-to trust expert for a very long time. And I'm wondering what gives you hope about the ability to build secure and trusting workplaces?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Her latest audio book, How to Trust and Be Trusted, five lessons is out now. Rachel Botsman teaches trust at Oxford University and has been recognized as one of the world's top 30 management thinkers. Here's my conversation with Rachel. Rachel, welcome to Money Rehab. How are you? I'm really good. It's good to be here. Happy to have you.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
I agree with that. And I think even at a current time in history where, you know, things are changing, programs are evolving or being removed, I think it's important for us to think about those micro kind of moments within our team, how we can implement change, because we don't have to have permission to have humanity in the workplace, respect and dignity, right?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
You don't have to have a program to uphold those values.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Absolutely. We end Money Rehab episodes by asking one last tip listeners can take straight to the bank. Rachel, can you give one last practical tip about building trust? You've given us so many, but I know you still got some more in there to share.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
You engage with 85,000 subscribers weekly through your newsletter. What's the most common question you get about building trust in today's workplace?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
I agree. And I think that the wonderful thing about trust is it's a global language. So rather you're in the UK or you're in Tokyo or you're in Los Angeles, we know what it feels like when it's not there, right? That's universal.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
I'm going to ask you a little more obvious of a question, but a complicated one. How do leaders foster trust within their teams?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Oh, my God, that was such a good point. You know, as you were talking, I was also thinking about in my relationship, like we are having like a little disagreement. And I said, well, you have to look at the context. And I think that's a really important tip for leaders. And it makes me think about when leaders make certain decisions that impact insecurity.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
So how do leaders unknowingly create insecurity in their teams?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Like, how do you create? Yes, the insecurity, because sometimes we know about what it feels like to be secure on our teams. Right. But, you know, how do leaders maybe unintentionally create that insecurity on the teams that they're not necessarily thinking about?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
That's a good point because I think that it's nice to have the distinction and that also for our listeners thinking about how do we handle some of the internal things that we need to kind of hone in on so that we can appreciate a psychologically safe environment, right? Because that's important.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Oh, no, that's like perfect. That's like the money shot right there. To understand that. And I think that's really important for us to think about. I often say in some of my talks, root your conversations in facts, not feelings, because right. Some of these things get kind of mushy. Like, I feel like you're doing this. That could be true. That could not be true.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Absolutely. And that kind of leads me to my next question is what's the biggest misconception about creating trust at work?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Trust Issues at Work? Here's What to Say with Rachel Botsman
Oh, I love how you frame that. And, you know, I'm a big fan of your work. And Rachel, you talk about trust being contextual. How does that apply to different workplace cultures? Yeah.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
You know, as you were talking, it's making me think about your book, Leaders Eat Last. And essentially what you're talking about is, you know, how do great leaders prioritize their people? And I'm just curious for those who are like, oh, that happened so many thousands of years ago, Simon. But what about today? Right. We see it each and every day. We're seeing it get back to work.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
What advice would you give to our leaders on how they can prioritize their people and make sure that they're keeping trust as the main character?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I experienced it, having it one day and not having it the next. Right.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Hey, Money Rehab fam, I'm Minda Hartz, and if you've heard yesterday's episode, you know that I'm guest hosting for Nicole this week while she's out on maternity leave. My new book, Talk To Me Nice, comes out this summer, and it's all about the seven trust languages that can transform our workplaces. So this week is all about trust, building and repairing it.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That's the mic drop right there. I hope everybody's listening. Pass this episode along to others, because I think as we continue to move into, I know people say the future of work, we are in the future of work, in my opinion. So take these gems and let's keep trust.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Thank you for the distinction because I think that's very important. And I know that we've dug a little deep, which I love and we're gonna go a little deeper, but first we're gonna play a little game that I call finish the follow through. And I'll start with a common workplace scenario and you let me know how we should end it for maximum trust building. Are you ready?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
In each episode, I'm zooming into one of the languages of trust with a special guest. Today, we're focusing on follow-through, that crucial bridge between saying and doing. My guest knows a thing or two about turning vision into action.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
You got this. Okay, first scenario is a leader announces a new bold initiative.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I love that. I was actually triggered listening to you talk because I thought about a manager that I had back in the day where they just pile us all in the break room, right? And then do the thing.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
His TED Talk on Start With Why has been viewed over 60 million times, and he's been teaching leaders how to create environments where people operate at their natural best. Simon Sinek is an unshakable optimist and founder of The Optimism Company. Let's welcome him to the show. Simon, welcome to Money Rehab.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I love that. So you're good at this game, Simon. I got a couple more for you. The next one is a company promises work-life balance.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That's a good reframing because I think, like you said, sometimes people get it a little misconstrued and I like that.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I love that. You know, so here's our last one. And this one's a little, well, I say a little more hard, but I know that you got it, is a team member raises concerns about belonging.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Happy you're here. You often talk about the importance of the infinite game versus the finite game. Can you first define the difference between the two and then explain how follow-through plays into creating lasting impact versus quick wins?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
And, you know, the way that you unpack that was so practical. And and I appreciate that because I think it allows people to see themselves that, OK, we're going to make mistakes like the old Facebook line. It's complicated. Right. Once we acknowledge that, then that helps kind of restore trust when it's shaky.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
It really does. And I'm glad that we have people like you on the planet, Simon, that help us be a little bit better than we started. So I love that. See, I would add you to game night. You did such a great job on that. So I'm going to dig a little bit deeper into your thought process because you've been doing this work and research for a long time.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
And I'm curious, how has your understanding of follow through evolved through your work with different organizations?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I love that. That's a great way to look at it. And I was also thinking, you know, so many people are listening and you don't have to be a leader entitled to lead inside your workplace. I hope everybody will think through that as well. But what's one thing everybody can do tomorrow to strengthen their follow through game?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Absolutely. And that leads me to another question. In a world where trust can feel scarce at times, like we're trying to figure out where it is, where we lost it, if it was ever there, what gives you optimism about our ability to rebuild it?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That's beautiful. Very, very beautiful. And here at Money Rehab, we always end the show with a money tip. So Simon, we're going to have a little different twist on it since we've been talking about trust as the currency. But if you could share a practical tip on the business imperative of consistent trust and follow through.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Wow. I think you just broke some hearts, Simon. You know, somebody's thinking I'm going to win marriage, you know? Right.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Yeah. So I'm glad you put that into context and you hit on something that's really important to me, which is trust in the workplace. And I know that you teach people and leaders how to be someone people can trust. What's the secret?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That's true. You know, it's funny. I often say, if I expect trust in my romantic relationship, why wouldn't I expect that from my colleague or my manager? I mean, this is a deal breaker in my love life, right? Why not my career?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That is true. There are rules.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Yeah, perfect. You know, it made me think about follow through. And I think sometimes in the workplace, that's where trust is eroded. So I'm curious, how can a leader be consistent with follow through when they're trying to build better relationships with their team?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
That's the chef's kiss. And I think that's the hardest, one of the hardest thing is owning it, owning this stuff, right, when it's happened.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
I love that, Simon, because essentially it's like the intent versus the impact. Yeah, I didn't mean to roll over your toes, but I did hurt your toes.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Yeah. I love that. And, you know, you touched on something before, but the psychological safety, and I'm curious if you could tell me a little bit about how does follow through impact psychological safety in the workplace or the lack of.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Right. I followed through.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek
Yeah. No, I love that because, I mean, listen, as leaders, as colleagues, as managers, the market's going to change. The raise that you thought was you were going to give somebody is not going to happen. Your intention may be that, but you still have to communicate to maintain what trust hopefully was there, right?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Well, that's freeing too. So thank you for beautifully articulating that because you're right. We shouldn't look at the scoreboard because that's only going to cause us more trauma over time.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Yeah, I love that. So what we're gonna do is there was this 90s commercial, Carl, I don't know if you remember, but it was like this infomercial with blue blockers, right? So we're gonna put our blue blockers on.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
So we see it, but we don't see it.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
A lot of our guests, they're navigating these situations inside the workplace, right? So some people are managers, maybe they've eroded trust or their colleagues, something, they didn't say the thing when they should have said the thing. So oftentimes it's hard to start the conversation.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
So what advice would you give for somebody who needs to rebuild trust at work, but they're like, it's been three months, right? How do I come back and circle back?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Listen, I'm like, I wish I could go back to my office self and my manager or even I think about saying that on those moments where I didn't have the language. And I think oftentimes we don't have the language. So thank you for giving us the cheat sheet for dignity back to work.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I love that. I know we've been digging into some deep stuff, so I want to switch gears. Nicole, when she's hosting the show, she likes to play a game. So I decided to bring one of my own games, and it's called First Thought, Best Thought. Are you down to play?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Hey, Money Rehab fam. I'm Minda Hartz, guest hosting for Nicole this week while she's out on maternity leave. This week, we're exploring the seven trust languages from my upcoming book, Talk To Me Nice. And today, we're deep diving into one of those languages, transparency. So far this week, I've talked to two academic experts on trust, Simon Sinek and Rachel Botsman.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I have faith and trust in you. It's simple. I'll say the word in your first honest thoughts. Don't overthink it. We're going transparency. Second chances.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Okay, I'm going to level up and find out what Bananagrams is all about. But I love those quick insights because they often reveal our feelings. And speaking of truth, I have an upcoming book called Talk to Me Nice, the seven trust languages for a better workplace coming out this summer. And I talk about trust isn't about just being nice. It's about being real.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
How do you balance being transparent while maintaining boundaries?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I love that. And I hope that we can all just lean into that just a little bit more, because I think back to what you said before, it's a cost if we don't, essentially. I know that we're all on our own journeys to building, restoring trust, creating trust if it's not there. But what's something that surprised you about trust that you wish someone had told you a little bit earlier?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Today, I'm talking to an expert on trust, but not from research per se, from his own experience, Carl Lentz. He's the host of a new podcast called Lights On, where he's having honest conversations about choices, consequences, and trust. You may know Carl from his time as the lead pastor of a church called Hillsong, where he was a spiritual advisor to many, including celebrities like Justin Bieber.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Yeah. When you were talking about trust issues, it immediately put me in the mindset of the Drake song, Trust Issues. And we can take some of those issues away. They don't have to be forever.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
That is a choice. It is a choice. That it is. We're living in a world where trust is broken every day, forgiveness might be on the floor, but what gives you hope about people's capacity for trust and forgiveness?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Plenty of it. I can't wait to go back and re-listen to this episode because I think we are all going to need to hold on to this hope and capacity as we move forward in this new year and beyond. Carl, we end Money Rehab episodes by asking one last tip. It's the money tip that we can take straight to the bank.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
So you've given us so many tips, but Carl, can you share one last practical tip about building trust?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
His departure from Hillsong was very public, but that's not what we're talking about today. Today, we're talking about what came next, his road to rebuilding trust, and how other leaders can rebuild trust too. Let's get into it. Carl, welcome to Money Rehab.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I read somewhere you said that guy is gone in reference to your past self. First, tell us what you meant by that guy is gone and who's this guy now?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Absolutely. Listen, we can have a brand new version of ourself and meet different versions of ourself. And just recently, somebody asked me, what would you say to your like 15 year old self? And now I would talk to her nice, right? Before I'm like, I don't want to revisit my 15 year old or 16 year old self.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I'm curious, what does this version of yourself want people to know about transparency?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Wow. Your ability to be transparent, be courageous, be vulnerable, set you free. But it also makes a whole lot of other people free because they're like, oh, I see myself in this.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I love that. And when we double down into transparency, especially after mistakes, there's often this instinct to hide, right? How do we find the courage to step forward? Because I'm sure listeners right now are like, I got something that it's the top of the year. I really could put this out there, but this is hard.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Okay. I want everybody to take a listen to that because the question is, how much peace do you really want to have? That alone should help us sway a little bit more to the right of trust. I love your new podcast Lights On and shout out to your wife.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I love those episodes where you're on together with the fam, but I'm curious, what does healthy transparency look like when you're rebuilding trust as a leader?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
I was thinking more about transparency. What did that teach you about supporting others through their trust-building journey?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
Yeah. It's thinking about something that you said. So fun fact for you and the listeners, I am a PKs kid. I grew up in a church. I saw a lot of my parents going out late at night, leaving us, doing the thing, 10 toes down for people. And then the moment that they did something that they didn't appreciate, or you were on your deathbed and my parents were there and now
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Repair Broken Trust with Carl Lentz
that were to be found, my version of, wow, where's the reciprocity? And I think that's the part I think that a lot of people have a hard time with, especially when you've showed up for people, right? And they don't give you that same courtesy.