Mike White
Appearances
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I was living in the suburbs. I was up in like the foothills of Pasadena and I was bored a lot. I kind of think I built out an imaginative world because I was under stimulated in a sense. I wasn't weird because I, I mean, I'm sure I was weird, but I wasn't like a social misfit in the classic way that you might expect me to be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
It's a survivor ripoff. It's a fictional survivor ripoff. What's funny is that Chuck and Buck came out the summer of 2000. So it came into the theaters end of June 2000, which is exactly when Survivor premiered. And I remember watching Survivor in the same place where I was when I was doing the press stuff for Chuck and Buck.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And seeing that first cast and the types of people that were represented in that show, now we're so saturated with reality television, you don't realize how radical it seemed to see some of the dynamics that were going on in that show, and the people, and how they talked, and how they weren't very likable, but they were.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
How it shapeshifted in this kind of way where, like, one minute you see someone this way, and then they just were like real people, you know what I mean? Which they were, obviously, but also kind of like characters. Something about that was just like, this is new. This feels new.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And I think as far as storytelling and what I hope White Lotus is, is something that feels alive and lively and not predetermined. And the characters shift like that. It feels credible, but also unexpected in that way that life is. And they reveal themselves in different ways. And each thing you think, oh, maybe this is going to happen and then it's slightly different.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
But when you step back, it feels...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
inevitable or it feels like it's built to something that was kind of designed but at the same time within it the storytelling feels yeah lively and not canned there's definitely this feeling of suspense but just like in survivor really a lot of the times it's just people sitting around talking by the fire but you have this sense of dread that something is gonna happen
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I was now bino, practically, growing up in Southern California with a bunch of surfer buddies and skateboarder buddies. You know, I wasn't somebody who, like, smoked pot and wanted to listen to Bob Marley and chill. I was like, I'd get stoned and my mind would be hypermental and I would be wanting to write stuff or think about things and whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I remember when Survivor came out, you know, I voted out Christian and there was a week where all the Survivors were like, are you okay? Because online I was getting so much shit for like being this rich guy who's destroying the financial dreams of everybody's favorite latest Survivor character. And I was like, you know what? I've been through this before. You know, you just got to ride it out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
You know, today I'm the villain. In a couple of months, maybe I'll be seen in a different way. Having been in the public eye in whatever little way that I have for as long as I have, you have to take some hits if you want to take some wins, too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
The first season was tapping into a lot of that feeling that was going on in the cultural conversation in general about privilege and entitlement. And so I think there's a part of me that is working out my own material skills reality changing. You know, my dad was, he didn't believe that Christians should own homes. He thought to be a servant of Christ, you should walk with the poor.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And then I went to this school where there was a lot of rich kids and their rich families, and I would go to their houses. So I was always kind of fascinated by rich people and had, I guess, a fascination that was tinged with, I want that, or I want to have this. And this
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
feeling of judgment or, you know, like, are we all going to hell for like being materialistic and not going to church every day and offering up all of our earthly possessions? And then now having this conflicted sense of, am I supposed to be a success? Isn't that what everybody wants? And then also at the same time, now that you're a success, you're no longer a David, you're a Goliath.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And it's like, is anyone rooting for you? And should you unload all of these things so that you can be a David again and you can stay true? You can be Jenny from the block or whatever. You know, you're just like, what does the culture want from me?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I feel like I tried to do a career hack, which was make a show where we go somewhere new, where there is no routine. There is no drive on the 405 to the 10 to work. It's a total life enhancement type of job. At the same time, what I didn't realize is that even that becomes your life. Like I don't have a life outside of the show. In fact, the show is even more my life because I never go home.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
one day i'll step back from this and see it as the thing that it is you know or have some perspective on it but right now i'm like the show has overtaken my life despite all my efforts to have some management over it it just feels like i failed that so it's a blessing but it's a little crazy making because you just are like when you put everything into something
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
You want it to work and you want it to be fulfilling and you want it to fulfill all these parts of your life. And the truth is what I really need to do is build out parts of my life outside of the show. But it's just kind of like this thing just sucks up everything.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
When I was little, I was a good, God-fearing kid. My parents sent me to a secular school, which was their great error, because I realized, like, I went to, like, this preppy school with a lot of rich kids, and... I didn't want to be those kids, but I could tell they had better shoes. I could tell they had better toys. I could tell they had better summer vacations.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
That's nice to hear. Honestly, just because I'm like, I'm so stressed about... coming through for all these people. I'm somebody who believes as an artist that of course, If it sucks, then none of it is worth it. But at the same time, I also believe it can't always just be about the destination. You have to be there choosing cool places and cultures that I'm excited about.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I have to do it from a place of enthusiasm and without being cheesy, love. And that's how I'm going to get what I need to get. I can transform this. I can do this. So that's something that I feel like is...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
It's important to me as far as my way of approaching this, because like I learned very early on, if it's all about results, you're never going to be happy because every once in a while you just get the wave and you ride the wave, but sometimes you're out in the water and you're splashing around.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
You have to enjoy that part of it too, because that's really most of your life is just waiting for the wave.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And then I would go back to the religious community that I was in where they were like all wearing polyester pants and like, I don't know, we'd have Bible camp. And I was just like, this is lame. I went to Bible summer camp and I thought I was possessed by the devil because I couldn't, you know, they'd be like, go find Jesus and accept Jesus into your heart.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And then like, I'd go out into the night and I'd be like, Jesus never showed up. So I was just like, maybe I'm Satan's spawn or something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I bought his play when I was young and I got really into the way plays were written on the... I was just into words and plays and I don't know. So I had a pretty imaginative life and I would try to get the kids at school to reenact Airport 77 on the bleachers. Just always trying to make things more interesting than just playing tag or whatever the fuck they were into.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
When I was young, I really wanted to be older and sophisticated, and I got a subscription to The New Yorker and would read Pauline Kael reviews, and I was just a little precocious in ways that I'm not even anymore. As I became an adult, I just cared less about being an adult.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
I didn't think I was necessarily going to be in the movie business or whatever, but I thought maybe I'd be like a playwright in New York City, like Edward Albee.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
Wesleyan was a lot of liberal Jewish kids from New York. And I mean, and there was lots beyond that, but it was just a very stimulating group of people. They were just more interested in some of the cultural stuff that I was into kind of on my own in Pasadena. And just they're very engaged with the world. You know, a lot of activists, a lot of people talking philosophy and theory.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And it was great as as far as like a budding playwright. because it gave me a space to just do the stuff I wanted to do. They just had a place where I could get people together and put on little stuff and develop a voice. I mean, the people that I met at Wesleyan are still some of the good friends I have to this day, including Meredith.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
There was a guy in my writing class who's older than I was, who came out to Hollywood and had sold some stuff with another guy. And then that partnership ended. And so I literally got out of school and this guy was like, come to LA and maybe I have a job for you. I was planning on going to New York whatever, struggling playwright.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
But then, yeah, so I went to L.A., and I got work kind of right away. It got me a foot in the door, and then I started just building out my own stuff.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
all of his community of friends rejected not only him, but like the whole family for some reason. So I just, I ended up feeling very uninterested in the hypocrisy of that kind of religious community where everybody's like fronting and yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
Some people had a really strong, like, hostile reaction to the movie, to me as a persona in the movie. And it had such a variety of reactions that I realized I'll never be understood. You know what I mean? Like, I just kind of gave up. And I realized, like, if you're making stuff, like, the kinds of stuff that I like to make, it begs for... a varied reaction.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
So if some people are going to hate it, that's part of what I'm doing. Chuck and Buck, it was a small movie. It didn't have a huge release or whatever, but I think because the script was so divisive and people were telling me like, I'm not going to fund this movie and you should not give people this script.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
And then the movie came out and like, you know, Entertainment Weekly named it the best movie of the year of the year it came out. And it was also for me, like it made me go, okay, I can actually express myself in this medium and I should go with my gut and, and I should keep trying to develop that voice and not just be a writer for hire.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
Because at the time I had written on Dawson's Creek and Freaks and Geeks, and I had a knack for being able to write other kinds of things. And so it was like, to me, that was probably the thing that made me double down on myself, I guess.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 7: The Mike White-iverse
Just dump her, man. Yeah, well, if you don't come up with some money, she's going to dump me. She's fed up. Really? Because that would be a good thing. She's a nightmare.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know, somebody who's like, I want to retreat to the monastery, not have any desires, and that's going to be the better way to live this life. And then another one who's calling them on and saying, you're just afraid to have sex. You're afraid to do this. You're And that they both brother and sister are kind of like two different voices in his ear. And he wants to give them both what they want.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So he wants to go to the monastery with his sister and he's going to run away from the world with his sister. And then with his brother, he's going to go to the parties and have sex. The idea was it's a Frankenstein's monster, which is like, all you care about is sex and getting off. And so the brother is like, okay, I'll get you off. And then you're like, what? Wait a minute.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And the sister who's like, come to the monitor. He's like, I'm going to move to your two. And she's like, wait a minute. And I just liked that there was this symmetry there and that they start off in one way and in the end, he's reading the self-help book. The part that was cut too, which is very disappointing, is that she decides to lose her virginity in the script in the last episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And she actually has sex with Zion, which is Belinda's son. So she's like, you know, there's a, there's a whole scene where she's like, that rocks. She's like, it's true. Saxon's right about this one thing. I need to get this over with. And, you know, like after she leaves the monastery, she's just like, I need to, you know, I need to like have sex.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And like, she's scoping the restaurant, you know, in the end, but like, It was just like one of these things where it was like, it just felt just again in that in that in that, you know, it's an hour and a half already. And it would have added like 10 minutes to the thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And it had a little bit of a romantic rom-com vibe in the middle of like, you know, trying to kill the family with the with the pong pong fruits and stuff. It was just like, it just felt like I was trying to do too much, you know, narratively.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So when she comes in, it's like, there's a piece of that conversation that was cut because it doesn't make sense anymore, and he's like... you look different. And she's like, what book are you reading? I mean, like, yeah, there's a scene in the thing. So, and she has her hair down and she's, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So it's like at the end when they're on the boat, it's like, she's just thinking about how she got, you know, nicely fucked or whatever. And he's like reading his self-help book. And it's like, yeah, this kind of reversal.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And I had had some of these... There were some vague concepts that I was starting to, like, you know, kept churning over. But then I had, like, 12 hours in a bed going crazy, and by the time the weekend was over, I was like, oh my... Yeah, like, I was like, oh... Oh, yeah, Belinda's son could be... By then I was like, I think I have the season.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah. I mean, I think that like she... I like the idea that it's about a guy who really believes, has a real deep philosophical agreement with the Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence, and yet he's this guard. I sat and I met a couple guards at the Four Seasons and talked to them and It's not a job where there's a lot of, like, ruffians who come in and, like, they have to, like, take them down.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's more just being helpful. And so I was just thinking that that would be interesting to have a guy who, you know, he's a true Buddhist and he's nonviolent, but he likes this girl. And that, like, ultimately for him to get the girl and get the job is to, like, be a killer, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And the happy ending is on the backs of, like, we know he killed a guy that we love and, like, that he went against his morals. And it's, like, something that feels very...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
human which is in order to get ahead you have to you know this is obviously an extreme version of it but you have to like yeah like suck up your idealism and and yeah like uh step up and i don't know like push yourself to the front of the line or push someone you know down the stairs or whatever it is i think we were wondering is like is is she like is mook happy and guy talk sort of
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I think at the end, I think he's... I mean, my feeling is it was worth it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I mean, he wanted that job. It's like he looks cool in his little... He looks cool, he's got the girl, but you know that something was lost. But the way it plays, he's definitely... happy with her. This is what he wanted. He did want that job, but now he has the job. And we just know that he sacrificed something that was his immoralism in some way that he can't go back.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I mean, I remember, I won't name names, but I went to Japan with this guy, an actor, who's straight, and he was obsessed with Asian girls. And he was just like, you know, he got there, and it was like, you know, and he had this thing, and it was interesting to just witness it. And it was like, what is it that is so powerful, and where is this coming from?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And then I'm trying to think of my own, you know, where does desire come from, and Like this feeling that there's something that that container holds that feels like lacking in you or something that you feel like you need to commune with that thing to hopefully through some kind of osmosis or some kind of catharsis, get it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And, you know, as somebody who is attracted to guys, it's very, it's, it's simpler to think about sometimes when it's just like heterosexual love, because it's just like a guy likes a girl. There's some feminine quality that will grow, you know, like some like this, you know, like we're, we're, we're separated, right? for whatever reason, into genders.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And so I was... I mean, I'm sure things continued to... Yeah, and when I write, things change stuff. But it definitely felt like I was like, I can plant my flag and it was taking place in Thailand. So I was like, I have a feeling we're going to end up in Thailand.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And so it's hardwired in us as a sexual drive, you know? And then there's these oddballs or whatever, the minority is attracted to the thing that they are. And as somebody who has had those feelings and been, it's just like, what is this desire? Like, I am this. Like, why do I need, what am I missing that I feel like I need to get that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And so that's always been something that's been of interest to me. Like, when I have sex with someone who's young and beautiful, I... I realize it doesn't wear off on me. Like I walk away and they're still young and beautiful and I'm just me still. You know what I mean? It's like you can never, it can never be satiated. Do you know what I mean? Like whatever this thing is, you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And it's different for each person what that thing is. And so like this idea of a guy who's just like constantly a slave to his identity this desire and was going from girl after girl after girl after girl to the point where it's just like, he realizes that he's never going to get the thing he wants. He could have a hundred girls in a night. So maybe he wants to be that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It just felt like maybe that is the next extension of where you think like, well, how am I going to be satisfied if I become her and I somehow figure out some like, you know, you create some role play thing where it's like, you are her and then maybe it'll be finished, but it's never finished. You know what I mean? There's like...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
There was a lot of stuff that got lost, cut. Yeah, there was a lot more shaping in the editorial than I'm used to, because I usually just are trying to make work what I have, because that's all we shot. There was a whole Kate dream sequence, which was really funny, and I was sad that we lost it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's in the third episode after the whole conversation with Trump, and they had a conversation that we also cut about ping pong shows that happened in Thailand and she's hearing about ping pong shows and she's like horrified and the other women are laughing at her because she's so like freaked out by this idea of ping pong shows and who would want to see that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And so she's dreaming, she's at dinner and like these lady boys hand her a ping pong ball and she's like, you're up next. And she thinks she has to go do a ping pong show. And then we did this kind of like Tarkovsky like dream where there's like, you know, we're on the edge of this beach in Thailand and Valentin is like, a Christ figure on these crosses.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
But because she's walking around with this ping pong ball, it's all kind of absurd. And she sees this stark visual, this ping pong table at the edge of the water. And then Michelle and Carrie come out to play her in ping pong. And then Carrie hides behind... uh, Michelle and puts her hands around her and Michelle's hands disappear into the dress.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So it's Carrie's hands playing ping pong and Michelle, and she looks like a dwarf, you know, it's like this. Well, they talk about it in the first episode that like, Oh, we did this thing. We did this. We like that. We did this campfire thing. And so like, it's like this, it's so she's playing, uh, ping pong with Carrie and Michelle. They're like, uh, like a little dwarf.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And it's, it's really visually like, it was very, it was very cool. But like, I just realized as we put it together, I was like, this is not this show. Something about it was like, this just feels like, I don't know. The tone just jumped out. I was just like, this just feels weird. So sadly, we cut it. If they ever did DVD extras anymore, that could be something people would see.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know, I've had ideas for each season, and then we go and scout, and once we choose a place, I realize, oh, whatever I was thinking is... Doesn't work anymore. You know, I mean, when we went to Sicily and we found that hotel, it was amazing. But I was planning on doing like a G7 summit bullshit. And then I was like, this is not going to happen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And like, this should be like a bedroom farce kind of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah. They're like a Davos? Yeah, like a Bilderberg group. Like a Davos kind of shit. And I was thinking that would be... But then once we got there, I was like, no. So anyway, I don't know. I kind of think maybe adding fame...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I just think this one is very epic as far as just like, yeah, like a parable, these kind of bigger, you know, the end is so like, you know, it's, you know, a high melodrama in a way, you know what I mean? And obviously that's gets people excited as far as like blood in the mouth and guns and dah, dah, dah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
But I was like, maybe, maybe something a little bit back to like the first season where it's the satirizing stuff that I know about the you know, art and criticism and movies and fame and celebrity and, you know, like a film festival type of thing or something like that, or like an art world sort of situation.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It just feels like that would be some kind of new theme to get into that's maybe a little less heady than what we just did, but still have some juice to it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah. Well, that's honestly, if I have a religion, that's really my religion. I mean, as somebody who tells stories. And this is what I love about being able to keep doing this show and what I hope by the end of it, when it's all said and done, we'll see that the project of it is really trying to give voice to so many different characters. and telling this multiplicity of stories.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Well, the first season was definitely like a class, upstairs, downstairs, comedy of manners kind of thing. And I mean, I don't know. I do read a lot of Buddhism, so I have thoughts about that. This one, at least from how I was composing it, there is a using Buddhist sort of ideas as a organizing... principle. It was about trying to think about identity as a cause of suffering.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And my belief is that as somebody who's dabbled in Buddhism, and Buddhism is very minimalist, it's about clearing your mind and dropping the story in the sense of a negation of a story. You know what I mean? Like no story or no self. And I believe that's a...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I mean, it's a fascinating belief system and it's really helped me in different times of my life, but I'm kind of more of a maximalist as far as like, you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's just like tell every story and then it just, you know, it's like you be every person and you stop taking yourself so literally and you can get inside every head and like you can explore each point of view and you can, you know what I mean, live all these different lives. And if I think about it, I actually get kind of moved. Just because I feel like that's my life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
This is the little project that, for whatever reason, I've set out for myself. It's just I realized over time that that's what I've always done as a kid and what I still do as an adult. And it's how I engage people. And, you know, it's like you... Yeah, I guess it's my own little religion. And it's like you want to drop the story... but not stop telling stories. You know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's like, in a way, it's like, you know, you guys are writers. You know, when you're young, it's like, oh, this is my story. You know, I'm writing this thing. And it's like, and only once you've written that thing and you've gone past that, then you're really engaging people in the world. And maybe I get in the head of somebody else or I'm thinking, you know, it's like,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I don't want to be just me. You know what I mean? I just remember when I was a kid and when I was, you know, in second grade or whatever, like, and they had this like box with all the costumes in the room and, you know, you put on different costumes and, and I just, you know, like I always was, yeah, I wanted to be the old lady.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I wanted to be all these different things and, and try those things on. And, and it doesn't mean that you really are the thing, but you're not really yourself either. So it's like, it's a, it's like, and this idea of being free of, of, Taking yourself literally, I just think that that's one of the main tragedies of this world, is that people are so tribal and take themselves so literally.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And this kind of concretization of identity, I'm against it. When it started rearing up, I was like, wait a minute, this runs counter to everything that I've always felt, which is like, we should be leaning toward where we find each other as opposed to finding all these things that are these differences.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I think identity as this way of thinking about yourself in these concrete literal terms that like then end up becoming a source of pain for you. You know, it's a source of, can be a source of pride, but it also becomes a source of pain. And basically the whole thing is really like a kind of dramatic investigation. And this is why the writing is a little different than like the other ones. It's
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Obviously, there's satirical elements, but there is a kind of Buddhist parable kind of... It has a little bit of a parable sort of feel, like the Wollongongan story. It's a little more hard-boiled or something than something that I usually write. The main original idea was having two guys that were seemingly very different, but having a parallel experience during the week.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And one guy who has had so much expectation, he has some kind of familial backstory of somebody who always was expected great things. He's kind of like a pillar of the community. He still has the respect and love intact of his family and then has done this shady thing. And then he realizes it's not only are they going to be poor, but just this idea of this self that he's created.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
He's going to have to rip off the mask and see that he's not that person. It's an annihilation of his identity in some deep way that we're almost like, why live if you can't be that person? And maybe everything should, let's burn down the entire world instead of having to face this life post this identity.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And then the Walton character is kind of the inverted as a guy who never had anyone want anything for him. Nobody ever really put the spirit of desire of something, you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Like what parents often do, which is give kids something to at least just get the approval of a parent and having him feel like he's nothing inside and how that is this identity as a victim, a perpetual victim that you can tell yourself.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And he has good reason, but how that can also be a trap and how you don't see the love, you know, now in the last episode, you know, he has this person who really loves him, right? And he just, it's like he can't experience the love in the present because he's just so fixated on the lack in himself and the lack of love he had in his past. And then the three women were sort of...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know, it's like those two male stories are very like epic.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And I was like, it'd be fun to do something that's a little bit more in the spirit of what we've done in the show before, which is a little more like having these kind of more micro issues with each other and thinking about them in terms of like kind of a one self that's been like cut into three parts where they come in, they're like having the same kind of like affirming, upbeat,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
female energy of like, you know, you're great and who's your doctor and whatever. And it wasn't really so much for me about some kind of scathing critique of female friendships. It was really just more how we have these touchstones in our lives and how those people can... create suffering for you just by existing because they went a different way and you went one way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And it just, you always sort of feel like you're defending your choices just by being in presence of someone who you came up with. And that ultimately I like the idea of Carrie Coon's final speech about how time, like those relationships are at least for me, where I find a deep meaning in my life. You know what I mean? Just like that, the time that,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
To check in with those people and see how life has turned out for them. And then I'm living my life, and it feels deep. You know what I mean? It's like, they're not always the deepest friendships, but there's something deep about reconnecting with those people and how... Everybody has their own religion, but there's something inarguable about how time creates meaning.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
In a show that's exploring religion and God or whatever, I felt like that was an interesting or something meaningful to me to want to express. And then it's like you realize that the show's pleasures... come a little bit from these very sort of relatable or identifiable types, you know, like people who go on vacation, you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
A family that goes on a vacation or a honeymoon or three friends, you know, so like, it was like, I was trying to like, what is a new version that isn't the same, like a slightly different family. But yeah, part of me also feels like, and it's the reason why the first episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms, that like, in a way, it's
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
There's an attempt, whether I'm successful or not, to deepen what's come before or continue to use certain tropes where the show feels like it's a conversation with itself in some way. And I actually feel like the discourse or whatever, all the buzz around it has brought more...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
people to the show and then they come to the show they're like what the hell is this or like like whatever the pacing and the vibe and like what it's doing it's it's it it definitely gets under their skin in some way and like there was complaining about how there's no plot and that part i find weird because the it never had a like like it's never been it's like part of me is just like bro this is the vibe like i'm world building you know i mean it's just like you know like the
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
you know if you don't want to go to bed with me get out of my bed like you know what I mean I'm edging you you know it's like enjoy the edging like if you don't want to be edged get out of my bed do you know what I mean it's just like don't be a bossy bottom or get the fuck out of my bed like don't come home with me don't get naked in my bed get the fuck out of my bed all right I love being edged by you Mike obviously something's gonna happen
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I'm not going to just like, yeah, we're not going to leave you here. I'm not going to leave you here with nothing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
When I was in Thailand, I met a lot of these guys who have younger girlfriends. A lot of them were Thai, but some were from other parts of the world. And you could just tell, like I got on... I got on an elevator and there was this older guy and the young girl was very hot and boobs all pushed up. And she had on her phone, she was like, oh, she was showing him some runway photos of something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And you could just tell he was just like, I could not give a shit. And she was just living in her reality. And I was like, it'd be fun to start off and you have this kind of relationship where it feels like... He's probably in it for the sex, but at this point it's almost not worth it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
But then that ends up being the romance of the show, and I haven't written a lot of that kind of relationship in the show at all. So I was just like, it'd be interesting to do kind of a stealth move where ultimately you actually suddenly find yourself really rooting for this couple and you love them, and have her be this kind of
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
woo-woo into astrology, but that, like, because of that, there's this idea that maybe in their tragic ending, there's something that feels a little like some kind of hint to a life beyond that love transcends this life. Like, even as they're... wheeled out to the plane together in their symmetrical coffins. Their love transcends this in some bittersweet... I mean, I don't know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Nobody's going to be like, oh, sweet. But like, yeah, there's some kind of sentiment there. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I'll follow you the next life and the next life. And so I like the idea of giving her a lot of kind of prattle that seems like nonsense, but that ultimately you're like, oh, maybe, you know. And at the end, she talks about the groups working to this divine goal. So whether I believe all that, it's nice to have a voice of that because she has this deep,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
sense of belief and amor fati and like things happen for a reason that maybe somehow that takes off the edge of the sadness of her death in some way because it feels like she has some kind of, I don't know, higher power to what happens next.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, you know, the ending was kind of the first thing I really thought of was, like, Belinda leaving with money and, like, leaving somebody in the same way she got left.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, just because there was some criticism, again, like, she was the... Black character, she was the dutiful, put-upon worker, and then she got this very sad ending where she's, like, consigned to work there forever while everybody's riding off into the sunset. And some people, you know, some people thought that was accurate, some people thought that was, you know, too depressing, or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It was just whatever, like, there was a lot of conversation about that part of it. And... I loved working with Natasha and I was just thinking like, well, you know, like obviously it was sad to kill Tanya. And I was like, what could be something happy that comes out of it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
But like, it's easy to be virtuous and have certain kinds of ideals when you have no money and don't have to, you know, really put your money where your mouth is. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's one thing to believe. Oh yeah. Like I'm going to do this, you know, spa for, you know, for women who have like, whatever her sort of fantasy thing was, but she needs someone to bankroll it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know what I mean? And it's like, then you've got the money and it's like, can I just be rich for like five minutes? Like, I just feel like that's a very honest, like, you know what I mean? It's like, can I just like, let me just like enjoy this for a second and figure out. So like, maybe she will go and be, you know, do something meaningful. And I think people do. I'm not that cynical, but.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So yeah, as far as your question, like that kind of was actually then an anchoring idea of that she would go and have this kind of, you know, little bit of a, you know, a stellar gets her groove back kind of thing with somebody there and like maybe fantasizing about maybe starting a business with this person. And then, you know, this windfall comes and it's like, I'm out of here. Sorry. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And that we love her because we are with her. You know, we get it. But at the same time, it feels very like human and doesn't make it like the end of some 80s comedy where they're like, you know, you see them put up the sign of their spa for, you know, like less fortunate people and like giving massages to like housekeepers or something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, it was a really weird thing and I'm like thinking now, I guess I'm like, now that this is over and like fourth season, I'm like, should I get bronchitis again?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Well, there's some things that were cut that spell it out a little bit more... Do tell. ...explicitly, and I feel like I'm happy that they were cut, but it might have some people feel more satisfied. The idea of Victoria as the mother, when Leslie Bibb comes up to her and she's trying to talk to her, she's like, I don't want to encourage her. I'm with my family.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And this idea, she's always telling the kids, you've got to be careful. You're beautiful, attractive. She has a superiority complex. And it has extended to her kids. And it's turned it into a little bit of a cult where they're all kind of incestuous. Yeah. That nobody's good enough, and so they're all kind of looking inward, you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, exactly. And then as far as Saxon and Piper, I was trying to think about The Last Family and how it began with... a Sidney Sweeney's character being like, we don't want you in here. And the kid has to go sleep on the beach. Cause like, he's this kind of like, you know, reject.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And, and I was like, what could be the, something that feels like it's like a play on that, which is like, they all want him in his room.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And I was like, oh, that's kind of an interesting idea, which is like one kid is sort of like this carnal, not only just exists that way, but actually has a philosophy around it, which is like you want to get pussy. Like the pleasures of life are very basic and like, you know, and that like life is about wanting things and getting them. And if you can get them, then you're going to be happy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Can I have some? Yeah, it is a true story. We were scouting in Thailand and Thailand was kind of just a stalking horse because I really wanted to shoot in Japan because I'd had more fun in Japan the times I'd visited. But I was having a really good time in Thailand, and then I got sick, and then they put me on this nebulizer, and I did not sleep for two days.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know what I mean? And a lot of times people who... retreat from life are just afraid that they're not going to be able to get the things they want, or they say they don't actually want the things they want. And like Buddhism is like, you know, to me is a whole religion about that, which is renounce things because wanting things is suffering. And so it's just two different arguments.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 5: Tanya with Jennifer Coolidge
So my pitch to them was Jennifer's death. Like, Jennifer dying at the end of the season, I was like, we'll bring back Jennifer, and then I kind of pitched the whole, like, the gays are trying to murder me, like, storyline. And they really liked it, so it was kind of built into the second season. And at the time, when I told her she was gonna die, I was like, this is probably it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 5: Tanya with Jennifer Coolidge
Like, I really wasn't thinking beyond what we were doing there. I just thought it would be a great kind of two... But, you know, in the back of my mind, obviously, I like the concept of continuing to travel. I thought it was an elastic idea that could continue to maybe be fruitful or something to inspire me. So...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 5: Tanya with Jennifer Coolidge
It was only really when the show was airing and all these people were interviewing Jennifer about it being over And her being kind of like, very... Yeah, there was a lot of pathos in some of those interviews, and I was like, this is sad.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 5: Tanya with Jennifer Coolidge
I love working with Jennifer, and it was certainly not any desire to get rid... I loved that what we did with Tanya's character, it pains me to feel like I... I don't know, I blew that. But, you know, we will work together again, and who knows how this will all play out. You didn't blow anything. I don't mean to interject.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Episode 5: Tanya with Jennifer Coolidge
No, but I do feel like it's like if they'd given me a six season order instead of a, yeah, a one more, we'll see, and I probably would've planned it differently, but that's how it played out.